PDA

View Full Version : New Faction


Sodas
07-03-2014, 04:02 PM
I have submitted it, but I figured I would share.

My faction, is that Brandon Sanderson butchered the final 3 books of the Wheel of Time.

Perhaps, another author could one day, perhaps, redo the final 3 books of the Wheel of time.

eht slat meit
07-03-2014, 05:25 PM
I have submitted it, but I figured I would share.

My faction, is that Brandon Sanderson butchered the final 3 books of the Wheel of Time.

Perhaps, another author could one day, perhaps, redo the final 3 books of the Wheel of time.

If the theory is to keep trying until they get it right, and without the help of RJ's notes, I ain't buying.

Zombie Sammael
07-03-2014, 09:07 PM
You're going to need some evidence for this theory if you expect anyone to join your faction. I'd suggest starting with defining what exactly you mean by "butchered" objectively without any reference to Sanderson, then demonstrating how Sanderson's writing fits into the criteria you have formed. However, be prepared for a lot of counter-examples and debate if you intend to start this particular argument again.

As to the second part of your faction, that perhaps another author could one day tackle the last three books, perhaps they could. What of it?

Seeker
07-03-2014, 11:34 PM
I'm gonna start a faction called "Theorylanders waste too much time bitching about Brandon Sanderson." I check the board for the first time in six weeks, and this is what I see.

:rolleyes:

Terez
07-03-2014, 11:35 PM
Sodas hasn't been around for a long time; apparently he needed to get it out of his system.

Matoyak
07-03-2014, 11:59 PM
Heheheh. That's adorable. :3

Boli
07-04-2014, 05:39 AM
TBH the final three books read more like fan fiction than a continuation of the books but lets be fair... the final (three) books will *never* be written as RJ intended.

What we do have is a continuation of the story and the books *are* enjoyable... in truth I think that the problem more stems from Lord of Chaos to Crossroads of twilight where the speed slowed down dramatically and so many plots/characters were introduced that it was impossible to wrap them up in a succinct fashion leading to the jumble of reciting deaths and plot points as quickly as possible in the final book especially without the emotional gravitas we were used to getting.


Perhaps in 10, 15 years time a "special edition" of the series could be released dropping a lot of the "straggly bits" and streamlining the story better - hopefully as a TV series - I can see vast areas of the story can be dropped and others expanded on. Demandred's story could be more interwoven over the last few books; Fain could be fleshed out more than just "oh he showed up and died after weird stuff happened at the end".

There is a great story here; how it ended is not a problem entirely at BS's feet but RJ's as well... can anyone else remember that travelling circus? - between Mat/Tuon and Elayne/Nyneave easily 1-2 books were entirely set in that place where not much happened except a lot of bickering and spanking.

Sodas
07-05-2014, 01:04 AM
If the theory is to keep trying until they get it right, and without the help of RJ's notes, I ain't buying.

So could one shot, with RJ's notes, from a respectable author, be ok with you? Just curious.

Sodas
07-05-2014, 03:23 AM
TBH the final three books read more like fan fiction than a continuation of the books but lets be fair... the final (three) books will *never* be written as RJ intended.

Fair enough. Nothing outside of RJ writing it, would be exactly as intended, however ....

it's like reading poetry written by your biology teacher.

it's like eating honey, only to end up licking sand paper between delicate bites

it's like reading a important tale of good and evil, only to have it finished by someone confused by basic morals and values.

Look, I hear the objections, but I maintain my position. Brandon Sanderson had no clue what he was doing with the final books. Championing Demandred is no different than champion Stalin - both stoic guys, who rarely smiled, both the second best (Roosevelt), but they do not need to be glorified. That's wrong, and doesn't need to be in WoT, no wonder the editor's cut it.

Now that I've become older and wiser, and more knowledgeable in history and civilization, I know Robert Jordan had an intention with his work. WoT had a very purposeful intent that needs someone who see's it's intent, to be written correctly. Sanderon has shown enough to me, to think him incapable of achieving that goal. He is/was not knowledge enough in WoT, and he seems to be a moral relativist.

Fantasy work isn't written all the time just to be interesting to read, it's often to read for deeper meanings. It's not a tabloid, rather a series of books to engage the reader in a deeper meaning. This is often the case epic fantasy, of which Jordan shares the stage with Tolkien.

Recall, if you have read Tolkien's work, the Lord of the Rings, from the understanding of the allegories he used. Middle Earth is Europe and North Africa, if you didn't know. The dwarfs, the Scots. The men are the Britons. The hobbits are the Irish. The Orcs and dark skinned men (yes, Tolkien used those exact words in his books) are the Muslims and native people of Northern Africa.

Is that racist? Many people think so.

What you may not know is that the Elfs are considered, to be a reference, to the Jews. Destined to leave Middle Earth for the time of Men (the Britons) to arrive (English empire). It was a slight saying it was time for the Jews to leave Europe.

I'm not sure how many people know that, but there are better, deeper, meanings hidden in WoT. So if you have a few moments, let me tell you some important things you should know about WoT, from the perspective of someone who is an avid history buff and believer in the Jewish/Christian faith.

I - The beginnings of the Wheel

The Wheel of Time is a misnomer of a title. You picked up the books probably thinking it was a Buddhist World, but it's not. Time repeats, so do the months in the Judiac calendar, but time is linear. One gift of the Jews to modern civilization has been the understanding that there was a beginning of creation, and there may be an end. The books bear that out, given the Dragon, or chosen one/Deliverer/Messiah/Christos, decides to end the Wheel.

In that that regard, the world is perfectly in conjunction with Judeo/Christian philosophy. The reason the story ends up repeating into 7 Ages is because human kind is bound to repeat forgetting it's own history, and therefore bound to repeat a loop that returns grand civilizations to the stone age and back to grandeur once again. And endless cycle, but it can end. It can end, if the Dragon chooses. So it's not as I once thought at all, but rather a way of looking at the cycle of civilization and it's collapses under it's own imperfections.

2 - Apocalypse Now

The End of our Age (according to WoT) is the beginning of the discovery of the One Power. This phenomena is known by the discovery of two equal, and opposite powers, Saidin and Saidar. These powers could be channeled, drawn upon the move or change objects. This cult disappears, lost to time, but is evidenced by an sole Angrael. This lost artifact is an object for magnification in the One Power, being created in the image of Robert Jordan himself. He sat, almost Buddha like, with his sword upon his lap. The implication is clear : Don't try to follow me, or you will end up lost to history. A warning to those that would want to worship Jordan, instead of G-D.

The great feats of Channeling would of course challenge established religions. If one could theoretically prove this "magic" in a laboratory, what need is there for religion of faith? One could prove this "magic" existed, even if it had no moral purpose. You can see the obvious implications. "Organized Religion" fell away. What was left was a cult of the One Power, and the remaining society of secularist.

What happened next is lost to the history of WoT. But much like the Egyptians scrubbed the name of Moses and the Hebrews off their walls, so too did the winners of this hidden battle. The winners, the secularists, and moral relativists, won. Call them, believers in just science and wisdom.

They forced the most powerful of the cult, those who dealt directly with Channelin into subservience. They called them Aes Sedai, or Servants of All. They were the Servants, forced to kneel before Science and Wisdom. The best evidence for this is in the ring they are forced to wear, the Great Serpent ring.

A good student of history, I know this well. Not just from the Bible story, of which the serpent inhabits the Tree of Knowledge and Wisdom (could have named it the tree of "Inner Beauty", same thing), but from many ancient cultures, from Sumeria to the Greek isles, most notably the Egyptians.

The serpent represented wisdom. The Pharaohs of Egypt would wear a dual crown, a combination representing the joining of the Upper and Lower Nile into Egypt. This crown had upon it two serpents, representing once again, knowledge and wisdom. This is once again referenced in the bible, when Pharaoh's priests drop two snakes to fight Moses's one snake. Serpents appear throughout Egypt, in art, pottery, and of course, Architecture. Watch the Charleston Heston movie, the 10 Commandments, in which the balconies have snakes repeated throughout their designs.

So the Cult of "Wisdom" won. They forced the Aes Sedai, channelers, into bondage. Servants of all.

The Cult, like many liberal states, felt threatened by history, and so erased everything. The meaning of war, murder, religion, everything was wiped away. The general rule : be nice.

And so set the stage for the wheel to loop back around. Civilization was full of people with no moral compass, no religion to bind them or help them resist real evil. Civilization was weak, self-absorbed, a perfect liberal state. Civilization had peaked at the end of the 1st Age, and now began it's decent into madness, eugenics, and eventually, a scientific discovery of the Devil himself, using channeling. One good example of this is how the village's introduce their wild channelers, as Wisdom's.

3 - Evil

The whole point of knowing history is to know when to head it's warnings. A brief history of the Second World War would show that the Nazi's did two things:

Eliminated competing thought
Eliminated competing people

Thus, WoT is a story retelling World War II, in some degree. The Nazi's, flush with ideas born of Darwinism and Evolution, felt right to act upon the concept of survival of the fittest. They thought, only by eliminating opposing religion and people, could they become their true, Aryan, super evolved people. This lead the Nazi scientists to experiment on Jews, Gypsies, Catholics or Protestants who didn't convert, anyone the regime didn't like, in what is known as eugenics.

Eugenics is a dangerous concept. I think Jordan used it well when he lead the Age of Legends, the 2nd Age, to it's end. Much like Germany 1938, the highly advanced, secular society had lost it's past, it's religion and moral compass, and was experimenting with what it shouldn't. In that same vein, the experiments that lead to the Bore, take that same scientific tone.

The implication by Jordan is clear - mindless moral relativism and secularism leads to the self-destruction of society. This is a common theme in many great works, including the great Islamic philosopher, Al-Ghazali. Before the collapse of the scientific Islamic world, he predicted it with his usual adeptness, by calling it much like civilization that would given into a feast of appetites.

Luckily, LTT was there, and had the ability to at least postponed the battle to a future date.

LTT, had two main rivals.

Ishamael
and Demandred

Ishamael, as one may notice, is one letter off from the Ishmael, son of Abraham. This son is commonly referred to by many people of the middle east, including Islam.

Demandred, on the other hand, was the "second" greatest man of his age. He was quiet, rarely laughed, much like Stalin. Stalin, much to his own chagrin, is famous for being second to Roosevelt in the alliance to win World War II. This is why I do not like Sanderson glorifying this character.

4 - Nietzsche

"To live is to suffer, to survive is to find some meaning in the suffering." - http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/f/friedrich_nietzsche.html#EU6Gd1UoOMaIEFu7.99

I think this quote sums up a very interesting dialogue that begins after the temporary sealing of the Dark One.

The People of the Dragon, the Aiel, soon find themselves with the task of the prophetic Aes Sedai. Unfortunately, real life emerges with the collapse of civilization. Brigands and murders now rove freely. The Aiel are forced with a choice.

One group, splinters off. It can't see the point of following the Aes Sedai's orders, and so instead looks to return to it's past, to find the song it once sung. They become travelers, using painted wagons as homes. If you didn't recognize these people, it's the Gypies. I believe they are refereed to in the book as tinkers, and legends of them being thief's are widespread myths. They employ large dogs for defense, instead of defending themselves. These parallels are so obvious, there is no question.

The rest of the Aiel split into two groups later, after an incident in which a part of the group breaks the Way of the Leaf, committing violence, even "killing" in the act of returning a family member back to the tribe. The two groups become the Aiel, ones wishing to defend themselves, and the Jenn Aiel, the truly dedicated, who stay true to the way of the Leaf.

So why the Nietzsche quote?

Think about what happens over the course of the series. The Tinkers, Gypies, are still alive searching for their song. They still have a reason to keep going. The Jenn served their purpose, building the pathway to memory. Once done, they had no purpose, and fell away. Jordan's world worked using very real world concepts, and a real world back story.

The other sec, the ones continued to be called Aiel, break up into 12 tribes. This number is similar to the 12 tribes of Israel, and the 12 sons of Jacob. Numbers are important in Judiasm. This people maintains it's unique status as the "people of the Dragon," a rather arrogant stance to some, but Jews take a similar stance in claiming they are the chosen people of G-D. I forgive all, because it's not a crime to be proud of who you are. The Aiel also practice unique customs, including veiling before killing (reference to blindness) and disgust of killing (rather capture short term indentured servants like was the customer under the laws given in Deuteronomy and Leviticus).

5 - Role Models

So this get's back to the characters. Many of the characters and places have historical, or biblical references that should be talked about more.

The Two Rivers :

A reference to the ancient civilization of Babylon, that lie between the Two Rivers, the Tigris and Euphrates.

Tar Valon :

Avalon. That was easy.

Rand :

George Washington.

George Washington was, before military fame, a farmer. Even after the end of the American Revolutionary War, when Washington returned to Mt. Vernon, they begged him to come back from farmer. All Washington really wanted to do was farm, and smoke his pipe. So Jordan's Environment was one in which he was building a complex world, full of layers of meaning, but one in which our world transformed realistically into the one in which he described.

Arthur.

The Once and Future King. Because the Dragon is spun out over and over, he fits this legend in a loose sense. He also has 3 women preside over his funeral, his symbol of course is a mythological creature of legend, and he removes the Sword from the Stone.

Jewish Justice

http://blog.emergingscholars.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/274748989_b5604be3d3_b.jpg

Jewish Justice is blinded by it's inability to see Christianity or Jesus. In Her hand, lies a sword.

Rand becomes that. Blinded by Semirhage's attack, he finds the sword Justice, all in time for the last battle.

Egwene :

Joan of Arc.

Her visions lead to her self-confidence. Much like Joan, who came from peasants, so too did Egwene. Her battle ultimately was with the leader of the modern Dreadlords, the M'Hael, Mazrim Taim. A name eerily similar to Hitler's salute.

Verin :

The supposed "historian"

Brown sister. Much like some claim today, those in charge of the History books are those most likely to abuse them to favor their own agenda's. Much like conservatives accuse the American teacher's unions and government employees of removing bits and pieces of our own history, to suit their own agendas. In fact, if you look at the history of the Black Ajah, it's much like the modern american school system.

"The position of teachers of the novices and the Accepted makes it easier for the Black Ajah to know every student very well before they even become Aes Sedai. Thus are women groomed for the Black Ajah, or perhaps singled out as possible candidates, from very early on in their training.[verify] As the Black Ajah does not recruit from among Tower initiates, having a Black sister as Mistress of Novices is a very handy way of keeping tabs on those girls when they are raised to the shawl. Previous Mistresses of Novices who were also Black Ajah include Merean Redhill, Sheriam Bayanar, and Katerine Alruddin."

Corruption starts at the beginnings of the education system for the most powerful sect of people on the planet. The Dark seemingly had a good grasp of what it was doing.

Moiraine :

The one in touch with the world

Blue sister. A color one would enjoy if one lived in say, the state of Israel. Stays true even under the worse torture.

Alviarin Freidhen :

Head of the Great Counsel of the Black Ajah.

White sister. Irony is not lost here that the one that be at the center of betrayal would be someone who poses as a white sister, supposedly the ajah of logic and wisdom. A complete up-side-down flip of the supposedly relevance of color to interpretation of "good and evil."

6 - The end of the story

There of course is still more to know, but this one last bit I will leave you with.

I, predicted the body swap concept, many years prior to the series ended. I saw, in my mind, what Robert Jordan was going to do. I knew that Rand would end up in Ishamael's body, and Ishamael would end up in the broken body that was Rand. The Souls would swap. One needs to believe in Souls just to understand or predict this, I would imagine.

What I find interesting in this is that Rand's body is burnt. As I mentioned in another thread, Jews believe not in the Xorastrian concept of Heaven and Hell, rather in a concept of the righteous Soul rising to Hashem from the body after 3 days. If you are not righteous, that's it, you are done. But you need the body to be buried. That is why the Nazi's burnt the Jews, btw. It wasn't because it was more efficient (than bullets or bombs? Who believes that garabage?) In that, it's against Jewish law to cremate a body. So this is why it's interesting that in the end, Ishamael's body is burnt, meaning his soul could not revive, but would end.

Lastly,

Like George Washington, after the American Revolution, George Washington just wanted to return to his passion, farming. And that is what Rand wanted to do. To be free, to farm, to smoke his pipe.

How did Rand lite that pipe?

He made it so. The World of Dreams had merged with Reality in the vicinity of Shayol Ghul. They were one in the same. Remember the ferns appearing upon the side of the mountain as the Aiel slinked along the ground? It came from their own minds, their own imaginations. And so they formed. In that same way, Rand lite his pipe. From his own imagination.

Genius. Start to finish. There are plenty of other references to other religions, other countries, and other people, but Jordan mastered so many in such depth, it's hard to see his work as anything else but an American Masterpiece.

It should be recognized as such.

eht slat meit
07-05-2014, 09:58 AM
So could one shot, with RJ's notes, from a respectable author, be ok with you? Just curious.

... I'm not paying $100 for a hardcover that makes the attempts to do what Sanderson didn't in the same amount of pages and less books.

RJ churned out words and plots - there was a lot of space to cover, and trying to limit a single final book to the size of one book wouldn't do the ending justice.

And that's just for starters.

Also, haven't really heard of any "respectable" authors headhunting this particularly unwelcome task for trying to be Robert Jordan, the Sequel.

Seeker
07-05-2014, 01:58 PM
Well, Sodas, thank you for that long, tedious, vaguely antisemitic misrepresentation of the late Robert Jordan's views. I'm sure his lawyers won't be serving you a cease and desist any time now.

By the way, you left your white robe and kerosene-soaked cross behind the ESC couch. Just in case you were wondering.

eht slat meit
07-05-2014, 04:00 PM
How did Rand lite that pipe?


As in the beginning, so in the ending. Tam did predict that if one found the void, one could do *anything*. Rand found the void, stood before its infinite maw, seized it, and never let it go.

Sodas
07-05-2014, 04:18 PM
Well, Sodas, thank you for that long, tedious, vaguely antisemitic misrepresentation of the late Robert Jordan's views.

That was dumb. I'm Jewish and unabashedly so. I'm also clearly pro-Israel. Have said so repeatedly in other threads. Oh well, just another person to cross off my list of "thought he was smarter than that."

Sodas
07-05-2014, 04:30 PM
... I'm not paying $100 for a hardcover that makes the attempts to do what Sanderson didn't in the same amount of pages and less books.

RJ churned out words and plots - there was a lot of space to cover, and trying to limit a single final book to the size of one book wouldn't do the ending justice.

And that's just for starters.


You are welcome to your opinion.

I would pay 100 bucks, or whatever the cost, for a quality finish to the series. I paid for the books multiple times, hardcover, paperback, even digital downloads for my old nook. The cost is not important to me, particularly now with the spread of digital formats.

As to the author, I would prefer a conservative, religious author with a deep understanding of Judeo-Christian history. Not someone who is a moral relativist, but someone who has a solid sense of right and wrong, good and evil. Someone who will try to end the series as faithfully as possible to the original intent of Jordan.

eht slat meit
07-05-2014, 05:25 PM
You are welcome to your opinion.

I would pay 100 bucks, or whatever the cost, for a quality finish to the series. I paid for the books multiple times, hardcover, paperback, even digital downloads for my old nook. The cost is not important to me, particularly now with the spread of digital formats.

I'm not a fan of the Hollywood approach to dealing with endings, one where they keep trying until they get it right, then reboot and do it over and over again, defiling the corpse.

As to the author, I would prefer a conservative, religious author with a deep understanding of Judeo-Christian history.

I prefer an author that can stew a good story, toss some extra elements like religious and mythological parallels for seasoning, and wrap it up in a satisfactory manner. I'm not overly impressed, but I'm satisfied.

So yeah, that's my opinion.

As far as characters go, I always thought that what made the characters interesting was that they didn't have a black and white conception of right and wrong. Mat was a self-involved man-whore, Perrin was obsessive to the point of being willing to let people die by the hundreds for a woman who arguably didn't really deserve it, and Rand was so morally confused that he committed at least one atrocity and wasn't sure whether mentally raping the entire planet was necessarily a bad thing.

All good and critical character flaws that contributed to the plot rather than taking from it.

Seeker
07-05-2014, 05:39 PM
That was dumb. I'm Jewish and unabashedly so. I'm also clearly pro-Israel. Have said so repeatedly in other threads. Oh well, just another person to cross off my list of "thought he was smarter than that."

Do explain to me why you're making antisemitic comments then. You know, the whole, "Jewish justice is blind" thing? Not to mention the elves representing the Jews leaving Europe. Really feeling the love there.

It's "elves" not "elfs," by the way. And while we're on the subject, way to praise the racism in Tolkien's work.

As to the author, I would prefer a conservative, religious author with a deep understanding of Judeo-Christian history. Not someone who is a moral relativist, but someone who has a solid sense of right and wrong, good and evil. Someone who will try to end the series as faithfully as possible to the original intent of Jordan

Yeah, because Mormons are real big on the moral relativism. It's gotten to be so cliche that HBO is actually planning to set its next series in Utah. I hear they picked "Gray is the New Black" as their working title.

Dude, you SO don't get Robert Jordan. The guy swam in moral relativism. The entire series is about how what is completely normal and reasonable to one group is alien and downright perverse to another.

Sodas
07-05-2014, 06:24 PM
I'm not a fan of the Hollywood approach to dealing with endings, one where they keep trying until they get it right, then reboot and do it over and over again, defiling the corpse.
I may be from California, but I don't buy into the Californication of things. Absolutely. I hear you loud and clear. Once, right, is a reasonable request. I do not disagree.

I prefer an author that can stew a good story, toss some extra elements like religious and mythological parallels for seasoning, and wrap it up in a satisfactory manner. I'm not overly impressed, but I'm satisfied.

So yeah, that's my opinion.

I agree! I think that is a very good point.

An author needs to be able to balance telling a good story, using similar descriptive level of language to RJ, and being faithful to RJ's vision.

As far as characters go, I always thought that what made the characters interesting was that they didn't have a black and white conception of right and wrong. Mat was a self-involved man-whore, Perrin was obsessive to the point of being willing to let people die by the hundreds for a woman who arguably didn't really deserve it, and Rand was so morally confused that he committed at least one atrocity and wasn't sure whether mentally raping the entire planet was necessarily a bad thing.

And then they grew up. They learned from the real world that there is right and wrong, good and evil, there really was a Dark One, and people are really out to hurt you. These kids were oblivious of half-men and Trollocs - only knowing of them in tales, but that changed through the course of the books. It's called character development.

Rand came to the realization that it's about doing it better the next time around, i.e. doing it better for the children. A very Jewish concept which he had upon Dragonmount itself. Similiar to the moment when Moses climbed Mount Sinai and disappeared from the people, to which they sinned and built the Golden Calf. Le'Dor Va'Dor. Generation to generation, teach your children these things so they understand why they do it. Jews teach these things so that the next time around, it will be better. Jews read the torah every year, year after year. Generation to generation. So no Jew will ever forget the past.

Mat is indeed interesting.

I wrote my college sophomore thesis for my ancient theology class on this subject, believe it or not.
Mat is interesting because he is much like many mythical characters. He is Loki, the joker. He is the Monkey-King, if you know that legend. In it, the Monkey-King would turn himself into different creatures, including the raven. He uses a wishing staff that he got from the Dragon King of the Oceans as his favorite weapon. He was said to be indestructible. Unfortunately, the Monkey-King never learned, and soon caused too much trouble for Heaven, and his punishment ended up in his eyes being permanently burnt red.

Mat never fulfilled that fate, because he found Tuon. A reason to live in the madness.

Speaking of Tuon, think about the Seanchaen and their ultimate reveal that the Blood have the potential to channel. Talk about a totalitarian state propped up by a lie. All that time the Blood were turning their own people into slaves to pursue their empire.

Perrin was indeed a brute in strength, but he was also a deeper character than that, was always conflicted between the hammer (construction) and axe (destruction). He didn't know better until he found Faile. A reason to live in the madness. Then he grew up and became a wise Lord, respected by his people, dedicated to rebuilding. He stood up against evil and railed to the Dragon's cause.

RJ had many hidden meanings :)

Sodas
07-05-2014, 06:40 PM
p.s. please watch this video with an open mind.

You will better understand my George Washington comments if you do,

http://youtu.be/H8zz_mBb80U

I know you love America just like me, and you will at least look at it, even if you disagree.

Sodas
07-07-2014, 12:46 AM
P.M. me if you would like a link to my private forum where we can debate this subject without people interjecting non-sense.

Some people, you know who you are, should probably not apply.

Sodas
07-07-2014, 12:48 AM
P.S. in case you didn't notice, Admin removed my Hero of the Horn status. Now I'm just a "senior member" lol.

For what reasons? never explained to me. Seems like punishment for disagreeing with them. Talk about mind control tactics.

GonzoTheGreat
07-07-2014, 02:39 AM
P.S. in case you didn't notice, Admin removed my Hero of the Horn status. Now I'm just a "senior member" lol.
Out of curiosity: was your HotH status actually removed, or have you merely gotten a custom title such as a few others also have?
There is a difference between the two, and that difference influences how serious your "demotion" is.

Terez
07-07-2014, 03:14 AM
The other custom titles are prefaced, e.g. "Hero: The Prophet of Moiraine".

GonzoTheGreat
07-07-2014, 03:49 AM
Yeah, or "Mistress of the Novices".

Isabel
07-07-2014, 11:43 AM
Yeah it's a bit strange. Mods???

Frenzy
07-07-2014, 11:06 PM
For the Light-cursed sheepshagging milk drinking goat kissing umpeenth time, the pipe was a goddamn ter'angreal!! You think warm thoughts, and it lights your weed for you. Why is this so bloody flaming difficult to comprehend?!

yks 6nnetu hing
07-08-2014, 01:48 AM
Hi Sodas - just a quick reminder: please read the forum rules (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=7507), in this case particularly #7 which applies for all topics threatening to overflow the boards with negativity regarding one particular character or obsession.

This is a recurring topic for which we used to have a separate thread (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=7471), and it may be that enough time has passed to re-start the literary criticism thread.

GonzoTheGreat
07-08-2014, 02:45 AM
For the Light-cursed sheepshagging milk drinking goat kissing umpeenth time, the pipe was a goddamn ter'angreal!! You think warm thoughts, and it lights your weed for you. Why is this so bloody flaming difficult to comprehend?!
There were no standing waves anymore to power it, so it should not have worked.

Frenzy
07-08-2014, 10:45 AM
Standing weaves aren't always needed to power ter'angreal. See the dream rings, redstone doorways, etc.

GonzoTheGreat
07-08-2014, 11:41 AM
The dream rings don't do anything other than merely give the user some extra confidence; no OP effects needed there at all.
The doorways aren't ter'angreal, they are finn'angreal, which are different things altogether.

(Actually, the latter might be true, for all we know. I don't think there is any indication as to which side of the agreement (the *finn or the ancient AS) produced those things.)

Frenzy
07-08-2014, 12:47 PM
Finn'angreal? please.

LoC Ch. 7
"...There seemed to be one common thread in those tiny structures for ter'angreal that required channeling to work, and another for those that simply made use of the Power..."

Now try wriggling out of the a'dam not needing the Power to operate. Or the columns in Rhuidean.

GonzoTheGreat
07-09-2014, 04:07 AM
Finn'angreal? please.
It may not be the official term for them. What are they called, if not that?

Now try wriggling out of the a'dam not needing the Power to operate. Or the columns in Rhuidean.
For that, I would need some test subjects and a Stedding. Plus some way of transporting the columns to the Stedding, I suspect.

It does seem an interesting question whether or not the A'dam can be taken off in a "no OP" zone. I wonder why Cadsuane (who grew up in Far Madding) did not think of that.

Seeker
07-09-2014, 12:05 PM
Because it's an impractical solution. How would you get to a no OP zone? You can't take more than two steps before the a'dam incapacitates you and a sul dam sure isn't going to take you.

SauceyBlueConfetti
07-09-2014, 03:30 PM
I think the argument would be that the foreign invaders would not know the area is in fact, OP-free. They wouldn't know the history, for example, of Far Madding.


A stedding would have no boundaries to the naked eye, they could easily just walk in to the area.

I like the description of finn'angreals. Made me laugh inside.

The pipe may or may not have been a ter'angreal.

I didn't see Sodas comments as anti-Semitic, I think the excitability of the thread snowballed a bit here, imo, which I thought had been left behind. We seem to have a good strong core of hangers-on since the books are done, I hope that sticks and stabilizes. So let's play nice. The posts in the last few months have been pretty great, actual discussion again.

Anyway, he left again, so any comments to him in the last few days are pointless and unread.

eht slat meit
07-09-2014, 06:13 PM
It may not be the official term for them. What are they called, if not that?

Ter'angreal. That's how they're described in the books anyway, though it can always be pointed out that the characters who tell us that are speaking in ignorance of the items actual origins.

That's said, there's a pretty good case for them being plain old ter'angreal, due to the fact that there is a nice crop of artifacts and weaves of various design and undesign that do the same kind of thing: the basic interterrestrial gateway, the outerplanar Skimming portals, the portal totems that lead to the mirror worlds, the ter'angreal that ease use of the OP to get into TAR, the Waygates to the Ways, and the Bore itself that leads into the Void.

It does seem an interesting question whether or not the A'dam can be taken off in a "no OP" zone. I wonder why Cadsuane (who grew up in Far Madding) did not think of that.

Given that she has her "wells", I expect it wouldn't have occurred to her. I suspect the A'dam wouldn't be any different than those items.

If you want to figure out a way around defenses, just get someone with specialized knowledge/abilities such as Androl/Aviendha and Mat Cauthon in the same room.

GonzoTheGreat
07-10-2014, 03:38 AM
Because it's an impractical solution. How would you get to a no OP zone? You can't take more than two steps before the a'dam incapacitates you and a sul dam sure isn't going to take you.
Did Cadsuane try putting on the armband that is part of the A'dam too?
Seanchan damane would not think of that, since they believe that damane and sul'dam are different. Cadsuane knows this is wrong, though, so she should have known that she could work with either side of the thing.

Come to think of it, now I wonder whether Egwene tried that in her Falme time. I could try to look it up, but I think I prefer to delegate the reading of Egweney chapters to others.

I think the argument would be that the foreign invaders would not know the area is in fact, OP-free. They wouldn't know the history, for example, of Far Madding.
True. On the other hand, Cadsuane is more aware than most that it is possible to create "OP free" zones, seeing as how she grew up in such a place. So when trying to figure out how to get out of the A'dam, this should have occurred to her as an option.

Obviously, once you're collared, Traveling to a place of your choosing would not be easy, so that is not a sufficient approach.
But that is not the only possibility: The Far Madding ter'angreal were made, and that suggests more can be made (Elayne has the skill, at least in theory). They can be turned on and off, I think, which would be an extra step into making them more useful. If smaller ones can be made, then adding one to her hairdo would be an option. Switching it on when necessary would then allow her to take off the collar, clobber the sul'dam who had put it on her over the head with it, and then switch on the OP again.

Not really a "get out now" method for when Cadsuane had had herself locked into one, but it would offer hope for a more long term solution to the problem. AS are supposed to think of the long term too, not just of what they want this very minute.

Seeker
07-10-2014, 12:00 PM
I didn't see Sodas comments as anti-Semitic.

Jewish Justice is blinded by it's inability to see Christianity or Jesus.

This comment is offensive because it presupposes the correctness of Christianity - and by extension, the incorrectness of Judaism - and labels Jewish spiritual beliefs as a form of blindness. It further implies that the Jewish people are incapable of living in a just society because of said blindness.

EDIT: In other words, he's saying that Jewish beliefs are the result of a character flaw. Very antisemitic.

Fantasy work isn't written all the time just to be interesting to read, it's often to read for deeper meanings. It's not a tabloid, rather a series of books to engage the reader in a deeper meaning. This is often the case epic fantasy, of which Jordan shares the stage with Tolkien.

This is a value judgment. "Good fantasy engages the reader with deeper meaning." He lists Tolkien as an example of good fantasy and then goes on to say:

Recall, if you have read Tolkien's work, the Lord of the Rings, from the understanding of the allegories he used. Middle Earth is Europe and North Africa, if you didn't know. The dwarfs, the Scots. The men are the Britons. The hobbits are the Irish. The Orcs and dark skinned men (yes, Tolkien used those exact words in his books) are the Muslims and native people of Northern Africa.

There are literally hundreds of deeper meanings in Tolkien - many of them valid moral lessons - but Sodas chooses racism as his go-to example of the deeper meaning that he feels should exist in fantasy. He's praising the racism.

And he adds

What you may not know is that the Elfs are considered, to be a reference, to the Jews. Destined to leave Middle Earth for the time of Men (the Britons) to arrive (English empire). It was a slight saying it was time for the Jews to leave Europe.

Again, this is one of his examples of how good fantasy engages the reader through deeper meaning. Whether this theme actually exists in Tolkien is highly debatable, but the point remains that he could have chosen any of the other very obvious themes in the Lord of the Rings. Anti-Materialism for instance. Or the rather scathing condemnation of environmental destruction. There are HUNDREDS of possible themes and subtexts in Tolkien. He fixated on antisemitism and said "Isn't it great that Tolkien engaged us with all these deeper themes?"

Put all this together, Saucy, and you have a full-on Gibson rant.

Do not defend this man. The things he has said are vile.

Davian93
07-10-2014, 02:30 PM
Sodas isn't anti-Semitic and its just stupid to suggest/state that he is in order to dismiss his comments.

Seeker
07-10-2014, 03:06 PM
I don't know what the fuck Sodas is, Dav. Nor do I care. What I do know is that he made antisemitic comments. I've already listed them and the reasons why they count as racial slurs.

Now if he wants to clarify his meaning and possibly retract those statements... great! Slips of the tongues happen.

Until he does so, however, I think you and SBC should try to not turn a blind eye to obvious bigotry in the name of peace and harmony on the boards.

Khoram
07-10-2014, 05:16 PM
Can one be antisemitic if they are, in fact, a practicing Jew?

I'm sure there's a first for everything, but that's pushing it.

eht slat meit
07-10-2014, 06:06 PM
EDIT: In other words, he's saying that Jewish beliefs are the result of a character flaw. Very antisemitic.

In point of *fact*, beliefs are a product of religion, not race, and can indeed be very much a character flaw, as is often pointed out by many louder and more vocal *atheists* than myself.

In fact, I think a great number of people would be quick to point out that any justice system run by religion has less to do with justice than oppressing diverse theistic and atheistic beliefs with the beliefs of a single group.

Seems to me you're leaping to the invalid conclusion that all Jewish people believe the same thing; they clearly don't. More to the point, if they do NOT believe the same thing, then his comment cannot in any way seriously be applied to Jewish people as a race.

That you suggest this presupposes a correctness of Christianity is false. The statement he has made can be equally applied to Christianity, Islam and many other religions.

On an entirely unrelated note, your speed in playing the anti-semitism card and use it to attack not only a jewish person but anyone with the audacity to disagree with your sovereign authority on the matter of bigotry against a race you are not part of speaks far greater volumes than anything Sodas said.

Because you know, I acknowledge that people tend to knee-jerk on the issue of race, and I tolerate that as much as I do the religious bigots.But there is a point at which not only did you jump on the guy and demand retractions and clarifications, but you basically offered your divine ruling that anyone who dares to consider it a non-issue is a coward appeasing bigots.

Chosen
07-10-2014, 06:12 PM
All right, let's make sure that the discussion here remains related to the Wheel of Time. Also, while it's totally okay to disagree with others about a particular topic, please refrain from personal attacks or insults (see rule #9 (http://theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=7507)). Some comments in this thread have been straying into or close to that realm. We will take further action if this continues.

The Chosen

Chosen
07-17-2014, 01:32 AM
All the posts since the warning to keep on topic and discuss WoT have been deleted from this thread. If you would like to discuss real-world politics, religion, etc., please do it in the Non-WoT forum unless there is a VERY direct connection to WoT. Also, refrain from personal attacks or insults against other members. It is okay to disagree with the ideas or comments that someone has posted; it's not okay on this forum to level a personal attack at that person.

Also, just a reminder. In the future if you read a post on the book forums that you feel contains personal insults, attacks, racial or ethnic slurs, or anything else that seems inappropriate for these forums, please report the post using the "Report Post" button. That way, the mods can review it and take appropriate action if we deem it necessary.

Thanks, The Chosen