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Kimon
07-17-2014, 01:28 PM
Still unclear what exactly happened, or who is responsible, but begs the question, who will head up the investigation? Considering that the plane went down in rebel territory, and was possibly shot down by either the rebels or the Russians, certainly that would raise questions as to whether the Russians could lead an impartial and credible investigation. Certainly the Ukrainian government would seem incapable of doing so, and frankly they too might have been responsible. Incredibly embarrassing and tragic mistake regardless of who mistakenly shot down this plane.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28354856

Southpaw2012
07-17-2014, 02:34 PM
Rumor is that it was the Ukrainians who believed they were firing at Putin's private plane. One thing that amazed me, though didn't surprise me at all, was the fact that the State Department opened their daily press briefing today with news about Afghanistan and the rest of the world before finally coming getting around to the news that a plane had crashed killing nearly 300 people. I know it's typical for this administration to not learn about anything that is going on around the world until it's been broadcasted on the news for a few hours, but seriously? Whoever it was who fired the missile, chances are it was not intended to take down a passenger plane..

Kimon
07-17-2014, 03:03 PM
Rumor is that it was the Ukrainians who believed they were firing at Putin's private plane. One thing that amazed me, though didn't surprise me at all, was the fact that the State Department opened their daily press briefing today with news about Afghanistan and the rest of the world before finally coming getting around to the news that a plane had crashed killing nearly 300 people. I know it's typical for this administration to not learn about anything that is going on around the world until it's been broadcasted on the news for a few hours, but seriously? Whoever it was who fired the missile, chances are it was not intended to take down a passenger plane..

Protocol would seem to require providing the source of such a rumor, as it seems ridiculous, and a quick search of google provides no credible sources (only laughable conspiracy sites) for such a claim. I have seen credible sources pointing to rebels potentially claiming responsibility, before realizing that they had mistakenly hit a civilian airliner rather than a Ukrainian cargo plane.

The following was posted on Igor Stelkov's Vkontakte page at 17:50 Moscow time, about an hour before news of the 777 crash broke:
"Message from the militia:
"In the district of Torez an An-26 was just shot down. It crashed somewhere near the Progress mine. We warned them not to fly in "our skies". Here is video confirmation of the latest "fallen bird". The bird landed outside the residential zone, no peaceful civilians were injured."
There is also information of a second downed plane, probably an Su" [a Sukhoi combat jet].
Mr Strekov lated posted copy from an Interfax wire that quotes another rebel leader denying involvement in the 777 downing, saying the DNR does not have any weapons capably of bringing down an aircraft at 10,000 meters.
Torez lies 40 miles east of Donetsk, and appears to correspond to the location of the 777 crash, but this cannot be confirmed and it is unclear whether Mr Strelkov or the militia men who sent in the report mistook the 777 for an An-26 or whether two aircraft were downed in the same area.
Mr Strelkov, a Russian citizen who rose to prominence as the most powerful commander of the pro-Russian uprising, is a mysterious and controversial figure.
A veteran of both of Russia's Chechen wars, the war in Transdnistria in the 1990s, and the war in Bosnia, he is a battle-hardened professional soldier.
The Ukrainian government says he is a serving officer in the GRU, Russia's military intelligence agency. Mr Strelkov has admitted to being a former officer of the FSB, another Russian intelligence outfit, but claims to be fighting for a cause he believes in, rather than taking orders from Moscow.

Here's the whole article from which the above was pulled:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10974050/Malaysia-Airlines-plane-crashes-on-Ukraine-Russia-border-live.html

Obviously regardless of whomever made the mistake, clearly they didn't think they were targeting a Malaysian airliner.

yks 6nnetu hing
07-17-2014, 03:20 PM
The flight was from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur. Normally flights like these are layovers with only 20% locals heading out. Still, that's about 60 Dutch people. Latest news said that based on historic records of that line maybe 20 americans were on board.

On a more personal note, Dai and I almost took that flight in April, but back then, withe the other Malaysian Air plane, they shuffled things around and... Well, we still flew over that area.

yks 6nnetu hing
07-17-2014, 03:55 PM
Correction, 154 Dutch, 27 Australian, all the crew was Malaysian...

bowlwoman
07-17-2014, 04:12 PM
And the black boxes are apparently on their way to Moscow...

Daekyras
07-17-2014, 10:18 PM
I sincerely hope none of our dutchies had any one connected to them on that plane.

Isabel
07-17-2014, 11:28 PM
As far as i know i dont know anyone that died:(

But its horrible:(

GonzoTheGreat
07-18-2014, 02:59 AM
Once again, all those wiretaps and such gave no warning at all. Or, if the secret services did know in advance, they chose to keep quiet about it.

yks 6nnetu hing
07-18-2014, 04:30 AM
so, the latest Dutch news report it's 173 Dutch citizens, 44 Malaysian, 27 Australian, 12 Indonesian, 9 British, 4 German, 4 Belgian, 3 Philippines, 1 New Zealander and 1 Canadian. They are not yet certain about the nationality of 20 passengers

Southpaw2012
07-18-2014, 09:08 AM
I'm amazed that they allowed that plane to take that specific route over a war zone. It's sounding more and more like it was shot down by pro-Russian separatists.

Southpaw2012
07-18-2014, 09:44 AM
A Democratic Senator from NY just called the attack an act of war. Some strong words there, but unfortunately our president won't call it that. If we want to do anything productive, which seems to be an issue in the last couple of years, we need to impose sanctions that will strangle the life out of Russia. They need to feel the economic pain to the point that the people say enough. Otherwise, Putin will once again turn a cold shoulder and continue his atrocities.

GonzoTheGreat
07-18-2014, 09:45 AM
People seemed to assume that either the rebels didn't have weapons that could reach that high, or that if they did, they would make sure of their target so as not to waste a fairly expensive weapon on a public relations disaster. Now it seems that neither assumption was valid.

GonzoTheGreat
07-18-2014, 09:47 AM
I'm wondering: would that Senator recommend fighting a nuclear war over this? Would you?

Just curious, of course.

yks 6nnetu hing
07-18-2014, 09:47 AM
I'm amazed that they allowed that plane to take that specific route over a war zone. It's sounding more and more like it was shot down by pro-Russian separatists.

as callous as it is, that is the direct route thus most cost efficient, fuel efficient and because of the fuel efficiency *normally* safest. If the airlines had pre-emptively started going round, they would have had to raise costs of flight tickets, which would NOT have gone over very well at all.

indeed, it is most likely the plane was shot down by the separatists. There's a good chance it was an accident. Supposedly there's an audio recording between a separatist and a Russian (media?) person, where the separatist is horrified over the fact that the plane they just shot was a passenger plane. I haven't actually heard said recording though, so can't tell how true that assessment is.

Kimon
07-18-2014, 09:57 AM
A Democratic Senator from NY just called the attack an act of war. Some strong words there, but unfortunately our president won't call it that. If we want to do anything productive, which seems to be an issue in the last couple of years, we need to impose sanctions that will strangle the life out of Russia. They need to feel the economic pain to the point that the people say enough. Otherwise, Putin will once again turn a cold shoulder and continue his atrocities.

The only sanctions that would really hurt Russia would be those imposed by the EU, especially Germany, since they are far more economically linked to Russia than are we. That however is why they have been so resistant to imposing them. Doing so would hurt economies in Europe, whereas for us, since we have little economic interaction with Russia, neither we nor they really feel much effect from them. So many Europeans dying in such an act of incompetent negligence, directly tied to (assuming that assumptions are correct, and that it was the rebels) the fact that the Russians are arming the rebels with sophisticated weaponry, likely makes inaction untenable for those same governments throughout Europe, even though those same sanctions still would be painful for themselves.

Terez
07-18-2014, 11:46 AM
as callous as it is, that is the direct route thus most cost efficient, fuel efficient and because of the fuel efficiency *normally* safest.
The joys of following Valentina Lisitsa (a Ukrainian-born pianist) on Twitter:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t1.0-9/10491970_10152300838892252_3450957671479212074_n.j pg

Not all that different from following Southpaw on Twitter, really.

indeed, it is most likely the plane was shot down by the separatists. There's a good chance it was an accident. Supposedly there's an audio recording between a separatist and a Russian (media?) person...
Our reporting says it was a Russian intelligence person.

...where the separatist is horrified over the fact that the plane they just shot was a passenger plane. I haven't actually heard said recording though, so can't tell how true that assessment is.
It's being played with subtitles all over our media, which is not to say it's necessarily legit. Apparently also one of the Donetski separatists was bragging on V Kontakte about having shot down a Ukrainian plane right at the same time the Malaysian flight went down, and then the posts were deleted shortly after Malaysian Air tweeted they lost contact with their flight. But no one in the Western media can confirm that.

Southpaw2012
07-18-2014, 07:22 PM
US intelligence says it's quite improbable that the separatists did this without Russian support. They may not have intended to take down a passenger plane, but it's sounding more conclusive that Russia was behind this.

Southpaw2012
07-18-2014, 07:45 PM
Has anyone here figured out why the State Department began their press conference yesterday about elections in Afghanistan while there was a global crisis going on? Once again, I'm not surprised after all the other garbage that has gone on in the State Department these past few years, but seriously?

Cor Shan
07-18-2014, 08:06 PM
A Democratic Senator from NY just called the attack an act of war. Some strong words there, but unfortunately our president won't call it that.

I don't pretend to understand American politics, but I don't think Malaysian Air is an American company.

/Gonzo

Kimon
07-18-2014, 08:26 PM
I don't pretend to understand American politics, but I don't think Malaysian Air is an American company.

/Gonzo

I'd say, please don't take Southpaw as indicative of American politics, but unfortunately he is somewhat indicative of conservatives whose only sources for information are conspiracy sites and propaganda machines like Fox News. Keep in mind that this is the same man who yesterday in this thread was sourcing RT (Russia Today), and their silly claims that this had been the Ukrainians trying to assassinate Putin on his private jet. Apparently those same right wing conspiracy sites, and Fox News (which frankly isn't much more credible) has now switched to silly invective against the State Department for having the nerve to think that they could talk about more than just the tragedy.

GonzoTheGreat
07-19-2014, 03:14 AM
Has anyone here figured out why the State Department began their press conference yesterday about elections in Afghanistan while there was a global crisis going on? Once again, I'm not surprised after all the other garbage that has gone on in the State Department these past few years, but seriously?
Why wouldn't they?

With the Afghan elections, they at least know somewhat what they are talking about. With that new crisis, all they could honestly say is "we're still studying the situation", perhaps appended with "some people in the department know a bit more than this spokesperson does", though they probably would not add the latter clause. It would be true, of course, but journalists don't like being reminded that they're merely listening to hired mouthpieces instead of the actual decision makers.

Terez
07-19-2014, 03:25 AM
Has anyone here figured out why the State Department began their press conference yesterday about elections in Afghanistan while there was a global crisis going on? Once again, I'm not surprised after all the other garbage that has gone on in the State Department these past few years, but seriously?
Has anyone figured out why Reagan had to be hounded off vacation in 1983 when the USSR shot down Korean Air Lines Flight 007, which killed 62 Americans, including a US Congressman? (269 people total were killed.) Reagan gave his initial condolences via his press secretary and announced he would not come back from vacation. Of course, he eventually changed his mind and came back to Washington to give an address, in which he scolded the USSR and said that no other country does such things (the USSR had done it twice in 5 years). Then 5 years later, while Reagan was still president, US forces shot down Iran Air Flight 655 by mistake, and we gave the guys who did it a medal.

Why don't you go crawl back in your hole?

Davian93
07-19-2014, 05:14 PM
A Democratic Senator from NY just called the attack an act of war. Some strong words there, but unfortunately our president won't call it that. If we want to do anything productive, which seems to be an issue in the last couple of years, we need to impose sanctions that will strangle the life out of Russia. They need to feel the economic pain to the point that the people say enough. Otherwise, Putin will once again turn a cold shoulder and continue his atrocities.

Yeah, we should definitely invade Russia...that'd be real smart.

You know, just like Reagan did after the USSR shot down KAL007 back in 1983. Reagan single handedly led the Marine divisions that captured the Kremlin in that conflict and led to the current Pax Americana we all enjoy. I still remember watching him choke Gorbachev to death with his bare hands on live television to end the conflict.

AMERICA...FVCK YEAH!!!!

yks 6nnetu hing
07-20-2014, 05:12 AM
Yeah, we should definitely invade Russia...that'd be real smart.

You know, just like Reagan did after the USSR shot down KAL007 back in 1983. Reagan single handedly led the Marine divisions that captured the Kremlin in that conflict and led to the current Pax Americana we all enjoy. I still remember watching him choke Gorbachev to death with his bare hands on live television to end the conflict.

AMERICA...FVCK YEAH!!!!

It wasn't Gorbachev, he didn't start until '85. It must've been one of the Gerontocracy, those dudes dropped like flies between '82 and '85. Typical ignorant American, get your facts straight dammit!

:p

Terez
07-20-2014, 05:54 AM
I try to pick up facts from Eastern Europeans. Did y'all know that the guy who gave the order to shoot down KAL007 was this guy?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoly_Kornukov

Read his page, at least as far as the yet-to-be-updated-since-he-died bit about his philosophy concerning shooting down planes at the border being crucial. He was promoted to Commander of the Russian Air Force by Yeltsin after 007 and continued to advise after his retirement until his death on July 1.

PS: this post was written after the one below, which was originally posted by accident in the Israel thread. I didn't see that post until after I wrote this one.

yks 6nnetu hing
07-20-2014, 06:00 AM
On a more serious note, the separatists have now towed away almost 200 bodies, some taken from the international workers on gunpoint, and they're being shipped eastwards, not clear where to, for investigation.

Just... Apalling. This whole thig.

A brief chronlogy of Russian megalomania:

The 2000s, Ukraine, ongoing: gas disputes. Every few years Russia turns off the gas pipelines. Apparently for shits and giggles

The 2000s, borders, ongoing: airspace violations all along Russia's Western borders, particularly often on the route between Kaliningrad and the Motherland

2007, Estonia: first documented internet war combined with street rallies, looting and general misbehaviour. Nashi, aka the Putinjugend makes an appearance. Purported cause :the moving of a war monument from the center of the capital to a war cemetery.

2008, Georgia: using the Olympic Games for distraction, Russia annexes Abkhasia and Ossetia. Nashi plays a role, internet shutdown is avoided though. The entire country was on the verge of being occupied.

2010, Smolensk: almost the entire Polish government is killed in a plane crash. The cause of the crash was officially pilot error, however the investigation of the crash was never open nor transparent.

2013, Ukraine, ongoing: Krimea, Eastern Ukraine...

And this is not even getting into the spy scandals, starting withe Litvinenko.

Davian93
07-21-2014, 07:47 AM
It wasn't Gorbachev, he didn't start until '85. It must've been one of the Gerontocracy, those dudes dropped like flies between '82 and '85. Typical ignorant American, get your facts straight dammit!

:p

Well, he killed several Politburo members with his bare hands...its hard to keep track.

GonzoTheGreat
07-21-2014, 08:16 AM
It's simple, really. Start at the current leader (Putin, I think), and start counting back. You start with "Putin is good" (obviously), his predecessor was bad (or not as good as Putin, at least), the predecessor of that one (Putin too, surprisingly) was good, his predecessor (Yeltsin in his second term) was bad, the predecessor of that one (Yeltsin, too) was good, then bad (Gorbachov) and so on. Just remember that if you end up with "Lenin bad" then you've made a very serious mistake.

Ivhon
07-21-2014, 08:33 AM
I am the Walrus?

GonzoTheGreat
07-21-2014, 09:01 AM
I am the Walrus?
That, too.

Then again, I'm not sure how to fit a walrus into the story of a Malaysian plane shot down over the Ukraine by an unknown party.

Ivhon
07-21-2014, 10:03 AM
I am the Walrus.

Terez
07-21-2014, 11:03 AM
And the Eggman.

Now Russia is claiming they have satellite evidence that proves a Ukrainian fighter jet shot down the plane, and others are claiming that we are holding onto our satellite footage in order to doctor it.

I think the Cold War is officially resumed.

Davian93
07-21-2014, 12:11 PM
And the Eggman.

Now Russia is claiming they have satellite evidence that proves a Ukrainian fighter jet shot down the plane, and others are claiming that we are holding onto our satellite footage in order to doctor it.

I think the Cold War is officially resumed.

Sure you do, Russia...sure you do.

~rolls eyes~


You know, if only we had had someone look into Putin's eyes to see his soul, we could have been prepared for this eventuality.

Terez
07-22-2014, 01:20 PM
Speaking of that, Biden's anecdote (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/21/us-usa-russia-biden-idUSKBN0FQ1CU20140721) about Putin was terrible. This guy has zero chance of being president.

Kimon
07-22-2014, 01:37 PM
Speaking of that, Biden's anecdote (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/21/us-usa-russia-biden-idUSKBN0FQ1CU20140721) about Putin was terrible. This guy has zero chance of being president.

His age is also an issue. He's another 5 years older than Hillary. If she runs, I can't imagine that he would as well. If she doesn't, even if he does, I doubt he would win the nomination. But if Hillary doesn't (which I assume she will) who would be the likely nominee? Corey Booker? Elizabeth Warren? Duval Patrick? Are there any other obvious possibilities?

Nazbaque
07-22-2014, 01:55 PM
Speaking of that, Biden's anecdote (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/21/us-usa-russia-biden-idUSKBN0FQ1CU20140721) about Putin was terrible. This guy has zero chance of being president.

From that article:
"We no longer think in Cold War terms, for several reasons," the vice president told the magazine. "One, no one is our equal. No one is close. Other than being crazy enough to press a button, there is nothing that Putin can do militarily to fundamentally alter American interests."

So if Russia and USA duke it out with everything they've got, do you think the planet will still be habitable?

eht slat meit
07-22-2014, 05:19 PM
So if Russia and USA duke it out with everything they've got, do you think the planet will still be habitable?

If we were to actually take the first swing, Putin would be too dumbfounded to accomplish anything before having his country dismantled slightly slower than you can say "shock and awe."

Terez
07-22-2014, 05:26 PM
His age is also an issue. He's another 5 years older than Hillary. If she runs, I can't imagine that he would as well. If she doesn't, even if he does, I doubt he would win the nomination. But if Hillary doesn't (which I assume she will) who would be the likely nominee? Corey Booker? Elizabeth Warren? Duval Patrick? Are there any other obvious possibilities?
Bernie has made some noises. If Warren doesn't run, he is my first choice of the current field, despite his age.

Kimon
07-22-2014, 06:35 PM
Bernie has made some noises. If Warren doesn't run, he is my first choice of the current field, despite his age.

If Bernie Sanders does run it will likely be simply an attempt to force discussion and consideration of more progressive topics, not out of any real chance of selection as the nominee, since he wouldn't realistically have any chance of that. The same, unfortunately, would likely be the case with Elizabeth Warren. I'd probably prefer Elizabeth Warren to any other Democrat, but let's be honest, do any of us actually think she could beat even an especially feeble Republican in the general?

Terez
07-22-2014, 06:52 PM
If Bernie Sanders does run it will likely be simply an attempt to force discussion and consideration of more progressive topics, not out of any real chance of selection as the nominee, since he wouldn't realistically have any chance of that. The same, unfortunately, would likely be the case with Elizabeth Warren. I'd probably prefer Elizabeth Warren to any other Democrat, but let's be honest, do any of us actually think she could beat even an especially feeble Republican in the general?
I think she could do it. Demographics are on her side, and her populist message appeals to some conservatives who hate big business and Wall Street and their influence over government more than they do the government itself.

/hijack

Nazbaque
07-22-2014, 07:17 PM
If we were to actually take the first swing, Putin would be too dumbfounded to accomplish anything before having his country dismantled slightly slower than you can say "shock and awe."

... Why don't we have a negative rep button again?

Ivhon
07-22-2014, 07:23 PM
... Why don't we have a negative rep button again?

Pffftt.... You're just ignoring the big picture to focus on your little tiny neck of the forest. Yes, you might be living in a land of glowing snow and three-headed reindeer, but the world will be a better place because we will, once again, have gotten rid of a Very Bad Man(tm).

America!
Fuck yeah!

eht slat meit
07-22-2014, 07:23 PM
... Why don't we have a negative rep button again?

Because it forces one to put their hostilities on public display rather than hiding behind a button?

Even if that wasn't the reasoning behind it, it works for me, because you're doing a better job of embarrassing yourself than I ever could with the unwarranted sniping.

Terez
07-22-2014, 07:48 PM
... Why don't we have a negative rep button again?
Because it forces one to put their hostilities on public display rather than hiding behind a button?

http://x2.fjcdn.com/comments/quot+An+officer+up+front.+Once+his+shadow+crosses+ that+twig+_120453d95054a833d750675a35dc93b3.png

eht slat meit
07-22-2014, 07:51 PM
Other than the Finnish flag, I have no idea what that means, and yet strangely I still find that amusing. What fell magic is this?

Terez
07-22-2014, 07:55 PM
Is of Polandball. Whether of Polanball or of SATW, Finland usually of havings knive.

http://i.imgur.com/oFREiEN.gif

eht slat meit
07-22-2014, 07:59 PM
I had no idea the Finns were such angry people. I must bear some unknown resemblance to Mat Cauthon.

Terez
07-22-2014, 08:21 PM
I think it has something to do with this:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-6e3-HZJuUXk/U88Nk2YwzPI/AAAAAAAABxw/bz_gyZRWDqY/w316-h563-no/Screen+Shot+2014-07-22+at+8.17.49+PM.png
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-w3_t9MCXGLc/U88Nk3TkjvI/AAAAAAAABxs/bfll21iHckw/w315-h347-no/Screen+Shot+2014-07-22+at+8.18.19+PM.png

eht slat meit
07-22-2014, 08:39 PM
Seen that before; never fails to impress me how many of them went dead or missing. Hidden away somewhere among the frost-rimed glaciers are a few logging camps filled with elderly Russian dancing "girls".

Davian93
07-22-2014, 08:54 PM
Bernie has made some noises. If Warren doesn't run, he is my first choice of the current field, despite his age.

I love Bernie but if he ran, it'd be a repeat of McGovern for the Left. There is zero shot that a real socialist would ever get the White House.

Terez
07-23-2014, 11:13 PM
Back to topic, is anyone else finding this story incredibly difficult to follow? The tidbits we get in our press are very unsatisfactory and often conflicting, and I have been following two Ukrainians of opposing opinions, one on Twitter, one on the Malazan forum, and that adds to the confusion.

If anyone wants to read a bunch of detailed posts from a pro-unity Ukrainian living in Canada, check out this thread (http://forum.malazanempire.com/topic/26994-us-policy-russia-interests/page__view__findpost__p__1114651) (I linked to his first post back in March). Mentalist is the polar opposite of Valentina Lisitsa, whose Tweets I posted back near the beginning of this thread. She's pro-Russian, and shows many signs of having been raised in a propaganda culture. She knows enough about propaganda to be wary of the media, hence her jumping on any and every conspiracy theory that supports her views, but she still trusts Russian media over any other source.

I find myself really waffling on what to believe. Lisitsa isn't stupid; she consumes media in several languages and she posts well-written and convincing articles from time to time, and I find myself almost convinced until I read something else from Mentalist or Western media that appears to contradict what I had read before.

For example, after reading Mentalist's posts, I did some more reading and came across this article in The Nation (http://www.thenation.com/article/180466/silence-american-hawks-about-kievs-atrocities). I love The Nation; they have some of the best writing in the US. If I hadn't been following a Ukrainian with a lot to say on the subject, I wouldn't have had any idea how misleadingly that article was written (in ways that I could fact-check, knowing what to look for). That in itself is very frustrating, and I even considered tweeting at the editor-in-chief to say how disappointing it was, but then she posted her own article in which she links to the other to make a point, and I decided not to bother. It just makes me sad. (And after having seen her on a few MSNBC shows, I wasn't surprised; she was much more shallow than I expected of that particular publication's EIC.)

yks 6nnetu hing
07-24-2014, 01:54 AM
Yes, back on topic, Dai said something yesterday that kind of sums this whole thing up in an interesting way [paraphrased and expanded]:

It's funny how Putin has been insisting all along to be interested in protecting the interests of his compatriots in Ukraine. Russia has done everything in their power to support the pro-Russian separatists (up to actually dishing out Russian passports to anyone who wishes to have one). At the moment the crash happened, however, and the separatists tried to give Moscow the black boxes - because they'd been told, repeatedly, that they are citizens of Russia and they should behave as such - Putin immediately went "no no no, this is an Ukrainian thing, these belong to Kiyv"


So, on the one hand he says that these guys are fighting for the Right Thing, and they are full citizens of Russia and should be afforded all the rights of full citizens of Russia... but the moment something goes wrong, Russia will take none of the responsibility for the actions of her supposed citizens. [/end of Dai's point]

I think in a situation like this it's very difficult even for the locals to understand what is going on, you get so many mixed messages, so many people from within the country as well as outside that all have an opinion on the situation... it's easy to get confused and do the wrong thing, pick the wrong side. It's even more difficult to convey this towards the external media. And media, well... it's not exactly good newswriting to go "so there's a civil war on, but beyond that we don't really know what's going on and who's doing what and why."

Terez
07-24-2014, 02:44 AM
One of the points that Mentalist talked about a lot that I found interesting was that the notion of "South and East" in Ukraine is in many ways very illusory, because even areas with high Russian population and general good sentiment for Russia are areas that see themselves as being Ukrainian. They may support pro-Russian governments but they don't necessarily want to be part of Russia, and definitely have reservations about violent conflict to that end. The region where the plane was shot down is a dying industrial area overburdened with ex-cons, and one of Ukraine's most Russian cities, Odessa, came out overwhelmingly and, mostly in self-defense, violently against its previously-tolerated separatist camp.

yks 6nnetu hing
07-24-2014, 03:54 AM
One of the points that Mentalist talked about a lot that I found interesting was that the notion of "South and East" in Ukraine is in many ways very illusory, because even areas with high Russian population and general good sentiment for Russia are areas that see themselves as being Ukrainian. They may support pro-Russian governments but they don't necessarily want to be part of Russia, and definitely have reservations about violent conflict to that end. The region where the plane was shot down is a dying industrial area overburdened with ex-cons, and one of Ukraine's most Russian cities, Odessa, came out overwhelmingly and, mostly in self-defense, violently against its previously-tolerated separatist camp.

That is a good point, one which I've seen echoed in other formerly Soviet states: even though certain people or areas may identify themselves as Russian, depending on the economical circumstances they may not want to actually be a *part* of Russia.

In the case of Ukraine: it's a very big country, with wide geographical but also economical differences. If certain areas have not felt the love of the government, of course they're going to look towards one that offers said love and attention (or promises to, anyway)

It also comes down to cultural autonomy - mostly people just want to be left alone, particularly when it comes to how they conduct their daily lives. However, sometimes on a country level it's important to set certain rules... for example in US the official language is English and anyone who doesn't speak English: tough luck. Although, in areas with a large number of speakers of a different language (Spanish) it may be useful to offer some national services or information in that language... except if you do that, then those people will never want to learn the official language. On the other hand, if you don't do that you make them feel unwanted and thereby discontented. Plus, if *you* don't provide information in their native language, they WILL get information from other sources, sources that may not portray you in the best light. Or, in case of Ukraine: sources that tell the Ukrainian Russian-speakers the complete opposite of what the Ukrainian media wants them to know.

GonzoTheGreat
07-24-2014, 04:15 AM
It's funny how Putin has been insisting all along to be interested in protecting the interests of his compatriots in Ukraine. Russia has done everything in their power to support the pro-Russian separatists (up to actually dishing out Russian passports to anyone who wishes to have one). At the moment the crash happened, however, and the separatists tried to give Moscow the black boxes - because they'd been told, repeatedly, that they are citizens of Russia and they should behave as such - Putin immediately went "no no no, this is an Ukrainian thing, these belong to Kiyv"


So, on the one hand he says that these guys are fighting for the Right Thing, and they are full citizens of Russia and should be afforded all the rights of full citizens of Russia... but the moment something goes wrong, Russia will take none of the responsibility for the actions of her supposed citizens.
Another feature of this same thing are the Russian claims that the plane was shot down by Ukrainian forces (fighter jets or whatever). They claim that is true, they claim there is evidence of it, but at the same time they very obviously do everything they can get away with to let people investigate what happened, so that no one else can check what happened. Almost as if the most aggressive of the rebels are working hard to protect the Ukrainian government against Putin's allegations. Or as if those rebels know that Putin is blathering nonsense, and that the truth is that it was they themselves who shot down the plane, of course.

... for example in US the official language is English ...
That is actually not the case. English is the language in which official business is done, it is the language used by the government, but there is no official language in a legal sense.

Terez
07-24-2014, 12:49 PM
Hillary in particular got a lot of flak for opposing the Republican efforts to make English the official language. This is something she has opposed for years, I think since she was first lady. A lot of people didn't realize the benefits vs consequences.

Apparently the Ukrainian coalition just dissolved, the PM resigned, and new elections have been triggered for this fall. The Russians are also apparently very excited about this.

Southpaw2012
07-26-2014, 11:34 AM
English IS the official language. That doesn't mean other languages aren't allowed. As for this Ukraine situation, we are pathetic. Putin knows he can do whatever he wants and won't have much resistance. If we had a true leader, as in a Reagan or even a JFK, Putin wouldn't pull this shit. All Obama is worried about is his fundraising and his golf game. If he had stood up to the Russians from the start, this wouldn't have happened. Instead of telling them they "must stop," he needs to tell them they "will stop" and then back it up. Tell the world that those who give any support to the Russians will receive zero aid from us and then impose crippling sanctions. This is ridiculousness and once again it's sickening that we have become this week these past 6 years.

Terez
07-26-2014, 12:11 PM
http://answers.usa.gov/system/templates/selfservice/USAGov/

GonzoTheGreat
07-26-2014, 12:14 PM
English IS the official language.
Could you please back this up with more than a bare assertion?
Show me the law which says that English is the official language. Considering how an ordinary law could undoubtedly be challenged on First Amendment grounds, you would probably have to find a relevant Amendment. I don't think you can do that.

Kimon
07-26-2014, 02:04 PM
English IS the official language. That doesn't mean other languages aren't allowed. As for this Ukraine situation, we are pathetic. Putin knows he can do whatever he wants and won't have much resistance. If we had a true leader, as in a Reagan or even a JFK, Putin wouldn't pull this shit. All Obama is worried about is his fundraising and his golf game. If he had stood up to the Russians from the start, this wouldn't have happened. Instead of telling them they "must stop," he needs to tell them they "will stop" and then back it up. Tell the world that those who give any support to the Russians will receive zero aid from us and then impose crippling sanctions. This is ridiculousness and once again it's sickening that we have become this week these past 6 years.

English is not the official language of the United States, as the federal government has no official language. English is however the official language of many of the individual states.

Your appraisal of our response to Russia continues to be misinformed and naive. We are not capable of imposing crippling sanctions on Russia unilaterally, because we do not have sufficient economic impact upon their economy to cripple them. If the EU imposed stricter sanctions, they would be capable of affecting Russia to a far greater degree than could we, but any sanctions that would cripple Russia's economy would also cripple their own. It simply would not be pragmatic for the Europeans to take such crippling actions, which is why they continue to resist efforts to go farther in sanctioning the Russian economy. They have their own interests, which do not coincide with our own, and no American president, even a zombified Reagan, would be capable of altering these economic realities and ramifications.

Unless you are honestly suggesting that you think we should consider declaring war, there is little more that can be done.

Terez
07-26-2014, 04:38 PM
Putin went after Georgia while W was still president. The perceived weakness is a result of our military overextension during the W presidency. He knows we spent all of our money chasing terrorists in the Middle East for over a decade, and with tax increases being blocked, we have no way to dig ourselves out of that hole. Not that military confrontation would be wise. There is a reason why the US and the USSR never fought directly, but Southpaw is probably too young to remember.

Davian93
07-26-2014, 07:08 PM
English IS the official language. That doesn't mean other languages aren't allowed. As for this Ukraine situation, we are pathetic. Putin knows he can do whatever he wants and won't have much resistance. If we had a true leader, as in a Reagan or even a JFK, Putin wouldn't pull this shit. All Obama is worried about is his fundraising and his golf game. If he had stood up to the Russians from the start, this wouldn't have happened. Instead of telling them they "must stop," he needs to tell them they "will stop" and then back it up. Tell the world that those who give any support to the Russians will receive zero aid from us and then impose crippling sanctions. This is ridiculousness and once again it's sickening that we have become this week these past 6 years.

Go back under your fvcking bridge, you stupid troll.

Also, English IS NOT the official language of the United States.

There is a reason why the US and the USSR never fought directly, but Southpaw is probably too young to remember.

I highly doubt he was even alive when the USSR was in existence...

Terez
07-26-2014, 10:05 PM
Is he that young? I suppose he might be.

yks 6nnetu hing
07-27-2014, 01:37 AM
Is he that young? I suppose he might be.

Aw crap, now you've made me feel old.

On a different note:I did not know that about the official language, learn something new every day and feel less old.

Davian93
07-27-2014, 09:11 AM
Aw crap, now you've made me feel old.

On a different note:I did not know that about the official language, learn something new every day and feel less old.

There's a regular push by the xenophobic right to make it the official language all the time...but its never actually happened. Mainly because the huge chunk of our immigrant population speak spanish so this would put them in their place or something.

GonzoTheGreat
07-27-2014, 10:50 AM
Actually, it may have started way before that, when there was the problem of all those German speaking immigrants. There were also some others that were considered too "linguistically challenged" to deserve full rights, but nowadays it is considered impolite to remind right wingers of Jim Crow, so I won't.

Still, I would like it if Southpaw presented his evidence. A conservative with evidence is sufficiently rare to merit treasuring, after all, and I would not want to deprive him of that.

suttree
07-28-2014, 05:54 PM
Looking like some significant sanctions are heading Russia's way: (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/world/europe/us-and-europe-agree-to-escalate-sanctions-on-russia.html?_r=0)

After months in which European leaders were hesitant to go as far as the Americans, the two sides settled on a package of measures that would target Russia’s financial, energy and defense sectors. In some cases, the Europeans may actually leapfrog beyond what the United States has done, forcing Washington to try to catch up.

The agreement came during an unusual five-way video conference between President Obama and his counterparts from Britain, France, Germany and Italy in advance of a European Union meeting scheduled for Tuesday to consider new sanctions against Russia. American and European officials said the leaders agreed that Russia has not only not backed down since the shooting of a Malaysia Airlines passenger jet but has also accelerated its involvement in Ukraine’s burgeoning civil war.

yks 6nnetu hing
07-29-2014, 01:46 AM
linky (http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/28/politics/us-russia-missile-treaty/)

The United States accused Russia on Monday of violating the 1987 Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty, citing cruise missile tests that date to 2008, senior State Department and White House officials said.

"This is a very serious matter which we have attempted to address with Russia for some time now," said a senior State Department official.

Russia's suspected violation of the treaty was first reported Monday by The New York Times.

"The 2014 Compliance Report of the treaty includes a determination that the Russian Federation is in violation of its INF Treaty obligations not to possess, produce, or flight-test a ground-launched cruise missile with a range capability of 500 to 5,500 kilometers (310 to 3,417 miles), or to possess or produce launchers of such missiles," a White House official said, adding that they "have kept the Congress and our allies informed of this matter."

The violation was for cruise missile tests that date back to 2008, prompting an administration review as to whether the tests are in violation of the 1987 treaty between the United States and Russia banning medium range missiles.

President Barack Obama has written his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin a letter about the matter.

Monday's news comes during a increasingly icy period for relations between Washington and Moscow due to the ongoing conflict in Ukraine, where Russia is said to be supporting separatists. The United States will place new sanctions on Russia this week, White House Deputy National Security Adviser Tony Blinken announced Monday without elaborating.

The United States also is upset with Russia for giving asylum to National Security Agency leaker Edward Snowden.

The officials said the administration has also informed NATO allies of Russia's suspected violation.

The officials said Washington, which first raised the issue with Russia last year, has recently notified Moscow of the determination and has proposed senior-level talks in the effort to bring Russia back into compliance with its obligations under the treaty.

Officials pointed out the treaty doesn't just protect the United States and Russia, but the 11 former Soviet republics also a party to the treaty, as well as allies in Europe and East Asia.

"The United States is committed to the viability of the INF Treaty. We encourage Russia to return to compliance with its obligations under the Treaty and to eliminate any prohibited items in a verifiable manner," the senior state department official told CNN.

One of the officials said further talks with America's allies would "take into account the impact of this Russian violation on our collective security if Russia does not return to compliance."

The administration has been raising this issue with Russia for more than a year. The Russians responded that they investigated the matter and considered it closed.


well, no shit, Sherlock...

suttree
08-06-2014, 10:42 AM
So Russia has curbed agricultural imports from countries imposing sanctions. (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28680656)

Also they appear to have massed 20,000 combat ready troops (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/06/us-ukraine-crisis-nato-idUSKBN0G613M20140806) on the border. The two moves may be somewhat related.


(Reuters) - Russia has amassed around 20,000 combat-ready troops on Ukraine's eastern border and could use the pretext of a humanitarian or peace-keeping mission to invade, NATO said on Wednesday.

Terez
08-06-2014, 08:19 PM
So Russia has curbed agricultural imports from countries imposing sanctions. (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28680656)
And winter is coming.

http://d3dsacqprgcsqh.cloudfront.net/photo/a2NgZyd_700b.jpg

Nazbaque
08-06-2014, 10:46 PM
So how many months until Putin gets assassinated?

ShadowbaneX
08-06-2014, 10:48 PM
I'll admit, I was thinking similar.

rand
08-07-2014, 12:17 AM
And winter is coming.

http://d3dsacqprgcsqh.cloudfront.net/photo/a2NgZyd_700b.jpg
Hey, it's a picture of Roose Bolton.

Davian93
08-07-2014, 07:55 AM
So how many months until Putin gets assassinated?

He's starting to cost the Oligarchs who prop up his regime some serious cash...I give it 2-3 at the outside if this crap keeps up.

Ivhon
08-07-2014, 12:47 PM
He's starting to cost the Oligarchs who prop up his regime some serious cash...I give it 2-3 at the outside if this crap keeps up.

Will be interesting if that happens considering the grass roots appeal he has amongst the proletariat and American conservatives.

GonzoTheGreat
08-08-2014, 03:42 AM
Will be interesting if that happens considering the grass roots appeal he has amongst the proletariat and American conservatives.
Those American conservatives won't be seriously inconvenienced. The main appeal of Putin is simply that he is not Obama, and it seems likely that any replacement would share that feature. Come to think of it, if Obama were to leave the USA to go rule Russia, that might please the American conservatives even better.

yks 6nnetu hing
08-08-2014, 04:38 AM
2 bits of news from the Estonian media that I can't find in English:

1) Putin has yesterday very suddenly and very quietly fired 18 high ranking officials and military personnel; mostly from the antiterrorism and antinarcotics teams. Probably the most prominent one was Vladimir Rushailo, whose latest position is classified but who was minister of internal affairs under Yeltsin.

2) On the first day of the trade embargo, the price of dairy products, including domestic products, has risen 10-15% in Russia

Davian93
08-08-2014, 01:18 PM
2 bits of news from the Estonian media that I can't find in English:

1) Putin has yesterday very suddenly and very quietly fired 18 high ranking officials and military personnel; mostly from the antiterrorism and antinarcotics teams. Probably the most prominent one was Vladimir Rushailo, whose latest position is classified but who was minister of internal affairs under Yeltsin.

2) On the first day of the trade embargo, the price of dairy products, including domestic products, has risen 10-15% in Russia

#1 kinda sounds like he was cutting the head off of a potential coup d'état/overthrow plot.

#2 sounds like something that gonna hurt the Russian people far more than it hurts American chicken farmers and EU/Australian farmers.

Hell, if anything, he just helped out the average American as those farmers will be forced to dump the 110 million broilers they would sell to Russia in the next 12 months on the domestic market instead (or just sell more to China) and the over-supply will lower our own prices...prices that have been rising due to the historically bad drought in California anyway.

So, um, thanks Vlad!

Terez
08-08-2014, 06:47 PM
And the Poles will eat more apples.

Uno
08-11-2014, 03:15 PM
An interesting development is that the US just sent a number of Abrams tanks and other equipment to Norway for storage. Sure, the US military has stored all sorts of hardware in NATO countries since the Cold War, but the timing is hard to ignore.

Terez
08-14-2014, 10:58 PM
Russia was caught moving armored vehicles and other military equipment into Donetsk:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11035401/Russian-armoured-vehicles-and-military-trucks-cross-border-into-Ukraine.html

While the force did not seem to be a substantial invasion force, it confirms that military supplies are moving across the border. While the APCs carried no visible markings the fuel tankers and soft-skinned trucks in the convoy bore black Russian military number plates.

The vehicles do not appear to be associated with the Russian aid convoy that is camped 20 miles further down the same road.

Davian93
08-15-2014, 07:10 AM
Russia was caught moving armored vehicles and other military equipment into Donetsk:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11035401/Russian-armoured-vehicles-and-military-trucks-cross-border-into-Ukraine.html

This is my shocked face...