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Southpaw2012
07-18-2014, 10:26 AM
How Netanyahu is handling the terrorist situation is fantastic. This guy doesn't put up with any crap, nor does he talk his way around situations in order to avoid offending someone. They offer Hamas, a terrorist organization, a truce, and those barbarians ended up firing off more rockets, so now Israel is obliterating them. And honestly, they shouldn't stop until Hamas surrenders. Liberals, like that bumbling fool Wolf Blitzer, spout off idiocy about how Israel is targeting citizens, but what they don't look at is that Hamas is placing it's women and children near military bases that are prime targets for Israel. At least Israel knows how to get things done. No "red line" rhetoric that they don't back up.

GonzoTheGreat
07-18-2014, 10:49 AM
Would Israel have accepted such a truce, where Hamas (or some other group) was in total control of all movement in and out of the country and could block any trade whenever it wanted without any pretext or justification?
If not (and I suspect not), then why be surprised when Hamas is no less stupid than Netanyahu is? More relevantly: why pretend to be surprised?

Kimon
07-18-2014, 11:19 AM
How Netanyahu is handling the terrorist situation is fantastic. This guy doesn't put up with any crap, nor does he talk his way around situations in order to avoid offending someone. They offer Hamas, a terrorist organization, a truce, and those barbarians ended up firing off more rockets, so now Israel is obliterating them. And honestly, they shouldn't stop until Hamas surrenders. Liberals, like that bumbling fool Wolf Blitzer, spout off idiocy about how Israel is targeting citizens, but what they don't look at is that Hamas is placing it's women and children near military bases that are prime targets for Israel. At least Israel knows how to get things done. No "red line" rhetoric that they don't back up.

271 Palestinians have been killed since the bombardment began on the 8th of July, mostly civilians. 24 Palestinians have died since the invasion began yesterday, mostly civilians. Two Israelis have died since the 8th, one of those a soldier during the invasion that began yesterday. Gaza is very small, there is nowhere for these civilians to go for safety. It is one of the most densely populated areas in the world, nearly 2 million people in a territory of just 141 square miles. This policy runs the serious risk of strengthening rather than undercutting the support of Hamas.

To give you a point of reference for that size, it is less than half that of New York City. Their border with Egypt is closed. They can't flee into Israel. They could swim for it, I suppose...

GonzoTheGreat
07-18-2014, 12:20 PM
To give you a point of reference for that size, it is less than half that of New York City.
Another reference, which I heard yesterday (and checked today on Wiki): the entire Gaza Strip has about the area as the city of Cologne, but twice the population.

Kimon
07-18-2014, 12:36 PM
Another reference, which I heard yesterday (and checked today on Wiki): the entire Gaza Strip has about the area as the city of Cologne, but twice the population.

To give another point of reference, it is essentially identical in size and population to Philadelphia.

There is also this to consider:

The UN said the number of people displaced by the conflict in Gaza had nearly doubled on Friday, from 22,000 to more than 40,000.

The same article indicates that over 1300 homes have been destroyed.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28365425

Cor Shan
07-18-2014, 08:57 PM
I fully support everyone's rights to defend themselves and (more importantly) to their self determination, but the chickensh!t glee that some people take in Israel's military exploits (read: killing boatloads of civilians for every Hamas... member? (whatever the demonym is)) can get pretty disgusting.

Southpaw2012
07-18-2014, 08:57 PM
271 Palestinians have been killed since the bombardment began on the 8th of July, mostly civilians. 24 Palestinians have died since the invasion began yesterday, mostly civilians. Two Israelis have died since the 8th, one of those a soldier during the invasion that began yesterday. Gaza is very small, there is nowhere for these civilians to go for safety. It is one of the most densely populated areas in the world, nearly 2 million people in a territory of just 141 square miles. This policy runs the serious risk of strengthening rather than undercutting the support of Hamas.

To give you a point of reference for that size, it is less than half that of New York City. Their border with Egypt is closed. They can't flee into Israel. They could swim for it, I suppose...



Unfortunately it's war, and people die in war. Israel gave plenty of warning that they were about to attack. Israel was ready to accept Egypts treaty, until of of course, Hamas decided to fire off more missiles. Israel has every right to defend itself and if innocents die, that is the sad cost of war and having to go to war against a terrorist organization such as Hamas. Hamas puts it's people in the way as it's form of "defense." It's sick.

Sarevok
07-18-2014, 09:32 PM
I'm mostly happy that we went there 2 months ago instead of now (which we did consider)... :eek:

Kimon
07-18-2014, 09:48 PM
Unfortunately it's war, and people die in war. Israel gave plenty of warning that they were about to attack. Israel was ready to accept Egypts treaty, until of of course, Hamas decided to fire off more missiles. Israel has every right to defend itself and if innocents die, that is the sad cost of war and having to go to war against a terrorist organization such as Hamas. Hamas puts it's people in the way as it's form of "defense." It's sick.

The military regime in power now in Egypt is not on friendly terms with Hamas, and as such was incapable of exerting any real pressure on them. Your description of Israel's response is misleading however. They agreed, briefly, to a cease fire, with the hopes of that leading to meetings in Cairo. But this was a cease fire, not a treaty, and they only ceased firing for a few hours then immediately invaded Gaza. Their response is not without some justification, but that does not mean that it is not heavy-handed and potentially counter-productive. As for your assessment that the deaths of so many civilians is simply the "sad cost of war", that is an incredibly callous statement, especially so considering the deplorable standard of living for the denizens of Gaza even before this latest incursion, made even more so as a consequence of this. Hamas definitely has a share in the responsibility for what has happened as a direct result of their actions, but so too does Israel. The hands of neither are clean in this struggle, and the hands of both are just getting ever dirtier.

Daekyras
07-19-2014, 08:00 AM
Hmm.

I spent a large majority of my childhood living about 30 seconds from a disputed border.

Now, most people don't view it as a problem but i can guarantee growing up on the northern Ireland border was no joke.

Some people, the IRA(dicks), were carrying out a blatantly illegal campaign against the people of the north. Terrorists from the "other side" did the same but to a much smaller degree.

In fact over the years it is believed the IRA took roughly 2300 lives of citezens of the UK.

At no point over the thirty years of the conflict did the British army invade. And i want to be clear on this, as someone who has first hand experience of both armies, if they had the "war" would have lasted three days. The Irish would never have been capable of fighting them off.

Why didn't it happen? Simple- Ireland has political allies and the outcry if it had happened would have been thunderous. And don't think the British were incapable of doing this- im looking at you, the Falklands.

So, my question is this- why is there no outrage over this so called war in the Gaza strip? Why is no one backing the Palestinians? Where is the equivalent of NATO for them?

GonzoTheGreat
07-19-2014, 08:39 AM
The Israeli claim that "the Arabs" all want them dead, but that is just a lie. There is no NATO equivalent, which is precisely why the Palestinians are in the situation they are in.

That said, I think the Ireland situation would've been a tad more difficult than you make it out too. If Thatcher had called upon her NATO allies to help "protect the UK" before she send her troops over the border, that would probably have confused matters enough for her to get away with it. But then, Thatcher was decent and nice, wasn't she?
My irony meter just exploded. Even though I don't have one, seeing as how it would be a useless gadget on a planet with the Internet.

Mort
07-19-2014, 01:30 PM
Unfortunately it's war, and people die in war. Israel gave plenty of warning that they were about to attack. Israel was ready to accept Egypts treaty, until of of course, Hamas decided to fire off more missiles. Israel has every right to defend itself and if innocents die, that is the sad cost of war and having to go to war against a terrorist organization such as Hamas. Hamas puts it's people in the way as it's form of "defense." It's sick.

Worlds most unbalanced war in history in that case. One fires bottle rockets that may destroy something while the other one level at least a building every time they do.

Stupidity on both sides, but it's hardly a "fair" war, if there is such a thing.

Davian93
07-19-2014, 06:03 PM
How Netanyahu is handling the terrorist situation is fantastic. This guy doesn't put up with any crap, nor does he talk his way around situations in order to avoid offending someone. They offer Hamas, a terrorist organization, a truce, and those barbarians ended up firing off more rockets, so now Israel is obliterating them. And honestly, they shouldn't stop until Hamas surrenders. Liberals, like that bumbling fool Wolf Blitzer, spout off idiocy about how Israel is targeting citizens, but what they don't look at is that Hamas is placing it's women and children near military bases that are prime targets for Israel. At least Israel knows how to get things done. No "red line" rhetoric that they don't back up.

Yes, this will totally solve the underlying problem. There's no way this will simply lead to more violence and more attacks.

~rolls eyes~

Have you ever actually paid attention to the issues in Israel and the Occupied Territories?

Davian93
07-19-2014, 06:08 PM
Hmm.


So, my question is this- why is there no outrage over this so called war in the Gaza strip? Why is no one backing the Palestinians? Where is the equivalent of NATO for them?

They got tired of getting their asses kicked by Israel so they basically told the Palestinians "Good luck and we're all counting on you" after 1973. The Arab version of NATO would have been the United Arab Republic (Syria/Egypt's brief alliance) along with Jordan. All 3 got their asses handed to them twice and have zero interest in losing another war. That's why the King of Jordan abandoned the Palestinians after 1967 and only nominally supported the 1973 war while staying out of it militarily.

To look at how Israel has treated the Palestinians since then and think they are being anything but brutal occupiers is to ignore any semblance of history.

Terez
07-19-2014, 06:19 PM
Barney Frank was supposed to play Up Against the Clock this morning with his sister, but because news they cancelled it and asked him to stick around to discuss Israel instead. BIG MISTAKE. Holy crap, now I can put a good finger on why I have never liked the guy. It gets really terrible in the second video.

Video #1 (http://on.msnbc.com/1nnXXDI)
Video #2 (http://on.msnbc.com/1sAEB0g)

Figbiscuit
07-22-2014, 06:36 AM
I am bemused as to how anyone can believe the occupation and destruction of the Gaza strip and the Palestinian people in general can be viewed as a positive thing. I saw a nice little animated film recently explaining exactly what is happening there for idiots who think the Palestinians are Bad People, sadly I can't find it again to link it here.

GonzoTheGreat
07-22-2014, 06:57 AM
Was it this one (http://www.globetoday.com/one-of-the-most-beautiful-accurate-and-true-cartoons-ever-a-masterpiece/#)?

Figbiscuit
07-22-2014, 06:58 AM
Was it this one (http://www.globetoday.com/one-of-the-most-beautiful-accurate-and-true-cartoons-ever-a-masterpiece/#)?

It was not that one. And I can't watch it as I am at work, so can't compare it to the one I saw.

Southpaw2012
07-27-2014, 12:18 PM
The Hamas terrorists are at it again. Israel agrees to another cease-fire and shortly after, Hamas continues the bombardment. Of course, Israel rightfully defends itself and Hamas points to Israel's defense as being an attack against civilians and the world turns anti-semitic/anti-Israel. The world is a sad place sometimes. These anti-Israel bigots better realize that if it wasn't for Israel, we would have zero Middle East allies. If it wasn't for Israel, we'd be in much more conflict than we already are. I look at these anti-Israel protests in France and can only be amazed at how ignorant and pathetic they truly are. Kudos to the French government at trying to halt the barbaric ignorance displayed by Pro-Hamas terrorist supporters.

GonzoTheGreat
07-27-2014, 12:50 PM
Why does Israel make Hamas these "offers it can't accept"?
Israel knows that Hamas can not afford to do anything other than continue fighting until Israel comes with an actually serious offer, so the pretense is obviously no more than an empty gesture, at most aimed at fooling those too stupid to see through it. But there won't be many that stupid, so why bother?

Davian93
07-27-2014, 12:53 PM
The Hamas terrorists are at it again. Israel agrees to another cease-fire and shortly after, Hamas continues the bombardment. Of course, Israel rightfully defends itself and Hamas points to Israel's defense as being an attack against civilians and the world turns anti-semitic/anti-Israel. The world is a sad place sometimes. These anti-Israel bigots better realize that if it wasn't for Israel, we would have zero Middle East allies. If it wasn't for Israel, we'd be in much more conflict than we already are. I look at these anti-Israel protests in France and can only be amazed at how ignorant and pathetic they truly are. Kudos to the French government at trying to halt the barbaric ignorance displayed by Pro-Hamas terrorist supporters.

Ironically, we used to have plenty of other allies in the Middle East...until we started backing Israel around the time of the Yom Kippur War in 1973. We chose to back them over any Arab state and it burned us big time there. (I assume you are completely ignorant of this history as you have the mind of a child).

Not technically Middle East but Iran used to be a big ally too...same with Iraq. We even had a nice fancy alliance along the lines of NATO that we called CENTO as part of our containment strategy against the USSR. We were not formally a part of that alliance due to pressure from the pro-Israel lobby but we were the driving force behind it.

Of course, our long term policy of supporting brutal dictators over liberal democracies in the region has come back to bite us in the ass repeatedly whether it was the King of Iraq, The Shah, The Ba'ath party and Saddam, the Saudi Royals, the Mujaheddin, etc etc.

Its almost as if our super smart government has repeatedly put short-term interests ahead of any long-term strategy and it continually costs us in the long-run.

But you knew all that, right?

Dumbass.

PS: And if you want to get technical about it, we are technically allied with Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain and Turkey among others in the region. But yeah...keep spouting your rightwing Breitbart/Foxnews bullsh!t.

Southpaw2012
07-28-2014, 06:53 PM
It's alarming to hear your support for a terrorist group whose charter says it wants to kill all Jews and destroy Israel. If a country was firing missiles into US territory, people would be calling for all out war with that enemy. However, since it's Israel, the one civilized nation in the area who is still on our side, dumb fucks like you are up in arms. You're against a democratic countries right to defend itself from terrorism. Those barbarians in the Hamas regime is killing it's own people, hiding weapons in schools, building tunnels into Israel to commit terrorist atrocities, and you defend that? You make me sick. Congrats to John Kerry though. He played the role of Hama's lawyer to persuade Israel to stop attacking and for the first time in history, the entire government board voted unanimously against him. Our foreign policy continues to be brilliant. Go protest with those young ignorant folks in Paris and the other parts of the world who don't know what the hell they're talking about.

Kimon
07-28-2014, 08:21 PM
It's alarming to hear your support for a terrorist group whose charter says it wants to kill all Jews and destroy Israel. If a country was firing missiles into US territory, people would be calling for all out war with that enemy. However, since it's Israel, the one civilized nation in the area who is still on our side, dumb fucks like you are up in arms. You're against a democratic countries right to defend itself from terrorism. Those barbarians in the Hamas regime is killing it's own people, hiding weapons in schools, building tunnels into Israel to commit terrorist atrocities, and you defend that? You make me sick. Congrats to John Kerry though. He played the role of Hama's lawyer to persuade Israel to stop attacking and for the first time in history, the entire government board voted unanimously against him. Our foreign policy continues to be brilliant. Go protest with those young ignorant folks in Paris and the other parts of the world who don't know what the hell they're talking about.

Over 1000 Palestinians have died, most of them women and children. Israel claims that they have killed over 200 Hamas soldiers, so even they are tacitly admitting that they have murdered over 800 innocent Palestinians in Gaza. They have also destroyed thousands of houses, bombed schools and hospitals run by the UN, and just a few hours ago bombed another hospital and a park, killing 8 children. If you were an innocent Palestinian, had seen half of your family murdered, your house destroyed, your land ravished, who would look like the bad guys? Hamas, or Israel? Keep in mind, most of those Hamas missiles fall harmlessly in the desert, and those tunnels could be destroyed without obliterating Gaza, without bombing schools, hospitals, and houses. Even if you think the Israelis are justified in hunting down Hamas, that doesn't change the fact that their actions are heavy-handed, brutal, and stupid.

Here's a link to the mentioned incident earlier today.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28531418

Here's the plea from Ban Ki-Moon (the UN Secretary General) begging both sides to stop this madness.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28529611

Terez
07-28-2014, 09:16 PM
It's alarming...
...every time you post!

Brita
07-29-2014, 09:04 AM
Over 1000 Palestinians have died, most of them women and children. Israel claims that they have killed over 200 Hamas soldiers, so even they are tacitly admitting that they have murdered over 800 innocent Palestinians in Gaza. They have also destroyed thousands of houses, bombed schools and hospitals run by the UN, and just a few hours ago bombed another hospital and a park, killing 8 children. If you were an innocent Palestinian, had seen half of your family murdered, your house destroyed, your land ravished, who would look like the bad guys? Hamas, or Israel? Keep in mind, most of those Hamas missiles fall harmlessly in the desert, and those tunnels could be destroyed without obliterating Gaza, without bombing schools, hospitals, and houses. Even if you think the Israelis are justified in hunting down Hamas, that doesn't change the fact that their actions are heavy-handed, brutal, and stupid.


Exactly! It is so incredibly heavy handed and brutal that it is sickening. This will only stir up hatred and more violence. How can it not? How can someone continue to forgive when you and your family are being killed like fish in a barrel? I am by no means a violent or vindictive person- but if I was a Palestinian mother in Gaza right now, I would have a VERY hard time finding peace in my heart with Isreal.

DahLliA
07-29-2014, 09:07 AM
...every time you post!

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/e1/c9/34/e1c9347933bba099ddd785ac5190fa7d.jpg

suttree
07-29-2014, 11:56 AM
Very interesting interview (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/interview-with-former-israeli-security-chief-yuval-diskin-a-982094.html) breaking down the current situation.

Brita
07-29-2014, 12:32 PM
Very interesting interview (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/interview-with-former-israeli-security-chief-yuval-diskin-a-982094.html) breaking down the current situation.

That was a throughly discouraging interview... he seems fairly pessimistic about the situation. A radicalized Israel fighting a radicalized Palestine seems almost inevitable in his eyes.

Davian93
07-29-2014, 12:37 PM
It's alarming to hear your support for a terrorist group whose charter says it wants to kill all Jews and destroy Israel. If a country was firing missiles into US territory, people would be calling for all out war with that enemy. However, since it's Israel, the one civilized nation in the area who is still on our side, dumb fucks like you are up in arms. You're against a democratic countries right to defend itself from terrorism. Those barbarians in the Hamas regime is killing it's own people, hiding weapons in schools, building tunnels into Israel to commit terrorist atrocities, and you defend that? You make me sick. Congrats to John Kerry though. He played the role of Hama's lawyer to persuade Israel to stop attacking and for the first time in history, the entire government board voted unanimously against him. Our foreign policy continues to be brilliant. Go protest with those young ignorant folks in Paris and the other parts of the world who don't know what the hell they're talking about.

This idiocy isn't even worth a dignified response as you are so wrong on so many levels, its just scary. The amount of ignorance you continually display on even basic facts is alarming. Whoever educated you failed and failed miserably and I really hope you didn't pay for a college education because you likely would have been better off burning that money for heat in the winter than paying for those classes given the views and opinions you regularly promote here.

Frenzy
07-29-2014, 12:58 PM
Is it impossible to support Israel and criticize their methods at the same time? Are our friends never wrong? Is it impossible to be loyal a friend and not tell them when they're being a fucking idiot?

If you say yes, I would wager you've never had to deal with an addict in the family.

yks 6nnetu hing
07-29-2014, 05:16 PM
Is it impossible to support Israel and criticize their methods at the same time? Are our friends never wrong? Is it impossible to be loyal a friend and not tell them when they're being a fucking idiot?

If you say yes, I would wager you've never had to deal with an addict in the family.

This! A thousand times this!

Figbiscuit
08-01-2014, 11:00 AM
I realise I'm opening up an old wound here but this video popped up on my timeline again just now so I thought what the hell:

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=532346660225740&id=100003512311439


Assuming it works that is.

There are no simple answers to the situation in Palestine, but I do find it very difficult to justify what effectively seems to be Israel's systematic destruction of the Palestinian people.

Kimon
08-01-2014, 11:55 AM
The 72-hour ceasefire predictably has already collapsed, with the Israelis having killed another 27 Palestinians in Gaza today. Over 1500 Palestinians dead now in this insanity, hundreds of thousands left homeless, UN shelters are being bombed, the water supply and electricity have both been all but obliterated by the Israelis, and yet we still hesitate to condemn the Israelis. So long as we continue to enable these actions it is difficult to imagine a way in which the Israelis can be forced to stop.

Terez
08-01-2014, 12:01 PM
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/when-genocide-is-permissible/

Kimon
08-01-2014, 12:04 PM
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/when-genocide-is-permissible/

Terez, the link just says "Post removed by the editors". What was it? Something inflammatory I presume?

Edit: After a quick look at some of his other blog postings, I can't help but think that this guy might honestly have been calling for genocide. Certainly seems like an outright psychotic dirtbag from previous posts.

http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/are-we-jews-crazy/

http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/israel-and-its-war-against-evil/

Terez
08-01-2014, 10:28 PM
Sorry, I posted it and went to bed. I just read that it was removed. The title was "When Genocide Is Permissible". It argued that the genocide of Palestinians should be permissible, for all the usual reasons. Terrible article. I'm glad they took it down.

Terez
08-02-2014, 05:44 AM
The link has been updated now with a message from the editors, and a link to a non-apology by the writer.

GonzoTheGreat
08-02-2014, 06:50 AM
From that apology:
I never intended to call to harm any people although my words may have conveyed that message.
So it seems quite easy to explain this whole flap: the author simply does not count Palestinians as "people", and thus can honestly say calling for their genocide does not count as calling to harm any people.
If only someone had invented the concept "Untermensch", then he could have used that to clarify his intentions. :rolleyes:

suttree
08-02-2014, 01:46 PM
Catchy title. (http://www.vox.com/2014/8/1/5959635/heres-the-full-text-of-the-deleted-time-of-israel-post-backing)


"What other way then is there to deal with an enemy of this nature other than obliterate them completely?" Gordon asks. And later, arguing that Hamas will never accept peace and that Israel is justified in doing anything necessary to impose it, "If political leaders and military experts determine that the only way to achieve its goal of sustaining quiet is through genocide is it then permissible to achieve those responsible goals?"

We've preserved the full text of the now-deleted blog post below; you can read it for yourself. This is not because Gordon himself is a particularly influential writer, much less a political leader of any kind, but because this post represents an extreme iteration of a much broader problem, in which the conflict and the discourse around it exacerbates and empowers extremism (http://www.vox.com/2014/7/22/5926267/the-daily-show-explains-why-discussing-israel-palestine-is-so-hard) on both sides of the conversation. There is real social science behind this phenomenon (http://www.vox.com/2014/7/22/5924217/israel-palestine-polarized), which pushes the politics of the conflict away from peace and toward more hard-line positions, as well as raising voices that de-humanize the "other side" in a way that makes it easier to perpetuate the fighting.

Nazbaque
08-03-2014, 09:46 AM
So because of all that oppression of which the whole nazi thing is just the latest bit, Israel gets to genocide its enemies?

... Exactly what is the difference between nazis and jews?

GonzoTheGreat
08-03-2014, 10:07 AM
... Exactly what is the difference between nazis and jews?
Differently shaped emblem on their bombers. Don't you know anything?

Kimon
08-03-2014, 10:40 AM
So because of all that oppression of which the whole nazi thing is just the latest bit, Israel gets to genocide its enemies?

... Exactly what is the difference between nazis and jews?

Let's not get carried away. This does illustrate how prolonged conflict can lead to some very dark thoughts in the human psyche, and while this one man's very disturbing suggestion probably is mirrored silently by others, but Israeli actions are, while very heavy-handed, still a far cry from what the Nazis did.

The larger question is what is the end game. Hamas clearly wants the blockade lifted, so that they can claim some tangible success out of all this destruction and loss of life. This conflict has strengthened their position, but they squander that if they fail to force the Israelis into concessions. But would the Israelis ever agree to lift the blockade? Doubtful, but so too is what exactly the Israelis want. They can't feasibly go house to house throughout Gaza hunting down every Hamas fighter and ensuring that all the rockets and weapons stores are eliminated. Israeli soldier casualties would continue to skyrocket in doing such. It is also unlikely that they will, at least without significant international pressure, agree to lift the blockading of Gaza. So what would they really view as their end goal in this? Are they assuming that Hamas will soon run out of rockets, and with an unfriendly (to Hamas) government in Egypt it will become very difficult for Hamas to resupply its stores? What will they do about the buffer zones? At present they have essentially designated a third of Gaza as off limits for its denizens. Will they allow the Gazans to return to those areas, or will they attempt to create a permanent buffer zone between Gaza and Israel, leaving hundreds of thousands of Gazans unable to return home?

Just how exactly this ends is becoming unclear. Will the Israelis really consider whatever damage they have done to the tunnels and the munitions supply of Hamas be worth the price they have paid internationally?

Davian93
08-03-2014, 11:10 AM
So because of all that oppression of which the whole nazi thing is just the latest bit, Israel gets to genocide its enemies?

... Exactly what is the difference between nazis and jews?

Better Lobbyists?

Nazbaque
08-03-2014, 11:10 AM
It's not really about what they have done, but rather how they think. And I don't really think that the views of the more extreme writers are an actual requirement to being jewish as their counterparts were for nazis. I'm just seeing so much of it these days that I'm starting to wonder if it's a de facto part of being jewish.

If gods chosen people are this bad then I take it as proof of god being an asshole.

GonzoTheGreat
08-03-2014, 12:14 PM
It's not really about what they have done, but rather how they think. And I don't really think that the views of the more extreme writers are an actual requirement to being jewish as their counterparts were for nazis. I'm just seeing so much of it these days that I'm starting to wonder if it's a de facto part of being jewish.
It is not. What the Nazis and Israel have in common is militarism. Both have (had) the belief that the answer to just about any problem is "smash it".

So far, most Israeli are not willing to take it as far as the most extreme Nazis did, but a rather worrying thing is that Israel is getting more extremist all the time.

Some of the Palestinians also have this militaristic approach to opposition, of course. But by far most of them don't, for the simple reason that the flaw in it is patently obvious to them: it only works if you are indeed capable of smashing any opposition. However, a big part of the problem is that those "reasonable Palestinians" have a long (often a lifetime) experience that negotiation is useless too. So all they have left is violence as well, even when they know it isn't much use to them.

What is needed is an alternative to violence, but how to achieve that when violence works so well for at least one of the parties (and also well for part of the other party) is unclear to me, and probably to everyone.

suttree
08-05-2014, 11:12 AM
Good article here on how things came about this go round. (http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n16/nathan-thrall/hamass-chances)