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rand
07-24-2014, 11:13 PM
I decided to reread the entire series (or at least try). This will be the first time I've actually read it all straight through, with aMoL. I kind of stopped reading anything WoT related after aMoL came out, and I hadn't reread for a little while before even that came out. So anyway, I started feeling like I might as well start a reread. I plan on posting my thoughts on various subjects and themes, as well as writing a few scholarly articles on the series as I go along.

Or, more likely, I'll just post whatever random thoughts pop into my head.





The first thing I noticed, which I haven't paid much attention to before, is how little focus there is on Perrin at the beginning of tEotW. Rand does some stuff with Mat, but Perrin just kind of pops in a few times to say a few things. He's even relegated to the stable while everyone else in the entire village is out front listening to Moiraine's tale (which also makes it ironic that he later resurrects Manetheren, even though he didn't hear Moiraine talk about it). Maybe RJ gave Mat more time here because he knew Perrin would be a PoV character later on?

Another kind of random thing I'd never noticed before: the raven on top of the inn flies off more or less in the direction where we learn the Waygate is a few books later.

Is Rand's dream about Tar Valon in chapter 9 prophecy? I mean, all dreams are in WoT, but I don't see the significance of it. He goes to TV in ToM, but there isn't a Myrddraal in it, symbolic or otherwise (as far as I know). So is this just saying that everything would have been screwed if Moiraine took Rand to TV, as was her original plan? I'm also not sure what's up with the fact that Rand can't understand anyone in TV.

Was anyone else reminded of Dorothy dancing down the yellow brick road when Rand and everyone else in TV sings and dances off to the White Tower? :p

Terez
07-25-2014, 12:07 AM
Is Rand's dream about Tar Valon in chapter 9 prophecy?
I asked Brandon about this. He said he was "pretty sure" Rand wasn't a Dreamer. I might have to dig in the notes again to see if I can find something on Rand's TEOTW dreams; there are others that have hints of prophecy. It may be that RJ simply hadn't figured out yet what he wanted to do with dreams, or decided who should have the talent.

I mean, all dreams are in WoT, but I don't see the significance of it. He goes to TV in ToM, but there isn't a Myrddraal in it, symbolic or otherwise (as far as I know).
I saw it as being symbolic of their intended destination, as prefaced by the previous chapter, "A Place of Safety" (a concept referenced often in the dream). They were supposed to go there to be safe from the Shadow, but the dream showed him that the Shadow waited there too (in the form of the Black Ajah).

I'm also not sure what's up with the fact that Rand can't understand anyone in TV.
1) it's a dream; 2) it might be some kind of allusion to Rand's past-life memories; Rand accepts the adulation because he's in Lews Therin mode (accentuated by his recognition of Shayol Ghul, but not of Dragonmount, which is just a mountain), but the common tongue is foreign to him. Or, he's in Rand mode and they're speaking/singing the Old Tongue. There's ambiguity about whether he remembers dancing with Egwene or Ilyena. Overall it's pretty clear that RJ was trying to drop hints about Rand being the Dragon Reborn.

rand
07-26-2014, 10:26 PM
Yeah, Rand's first dream definitely seems more like a real dream than an Ishamael dream. He falls several times but doesn't have any cuts or scrapes when he wakes up, so it's not like all the other dreams he has in tEotW.

I forgot (or maybe never noticed) that Taim's presence in Saldaea is mentioned this early on. At least, I assume that he's the source of the rumored "trouble" in Saldaea that everyone in Baerlon is talking about.

How were the rats at the Stag and Lion killed? Did Ishamael actually show up there, like he seemingly does outside Shadar Logoth later on? Can a Fade do this? Did Rand's ta'veren-ness make the cat somehow do it?

Granted, I don't remember a lot of the smaller details from the three Brandon books, but a lot of Min's viewings either seem unfulfilled or too ambiguous to really know. Is Mat's laughing face anything, or just a symbol that he's sort of a trickster type of character? Does Rand's hand getting blown off count as a "bloody" hand? What about the white hot iron?

Terez
07-26-2014, 11:44 PM
Yeah, Rand's first dream definitely seems more like a real dream than an Ishamael dream. He falls several times but doesn't have any cuts or scrapes when he wakes up, so it's not like all the other dreams he has in tEotW.
There are a few other dreams that seem like real dreams, but they are short passages, not like the ch. 9 dream or the Ishamael dreams. Keep an eye out for those; some of them are interesting.

I forgot (or maybe never noticed) that Taim's presence in Saldaea is mentioned this early on. At least, I assume that he's the source of the rumored "trouble" in Saldaea that everyone in Baerlon is talking about.
It's unclear. I have little doubt Taim was active at that point, since Liandrin informed Moiraine of him a little over two months later in Saldaea (having heard the news before leaving Tar Valon), but Domon's story is also a possibility. Supposedly Taim did not become a Darkfriend until he was released, so it's not clear that Domon's trouble was related to Taim. And this has a strong hint of Domon's trouble:

Ara's eyes went to the stools behind the tubs, where their clothes and belongings were stacked. He glanced at the bow, but lingered longest over Rand's sword and Perrin's axe. "Is there trouble downcountry, too?" he said abruptly. "In the Rivers, or whatever you call it?"

"The Two Rivers," Mat said, pronouncing each separate word distinctly. "It's the Two Rivers. As for trouble, why—"

"What do you mean, too?" Rand asked. "Is there some kind of trouble here?"

Perrin, enjoying his soak, murmured, "Good! Good!" Thom raised himself back up a little, and opened his eyes.

"Here?" Ara snorted. "Trouble? Miners having fistfights in the streets in the dark of the morning aren't trouble. Or ... " He stopped and eyed them a moment. "I meant the Ghealdan kind of trouble," he said finally. "No, I suppose not. Nothing but sheep downcountry, is there? No offense. I just meant it's quiet down there. Still, it's been a strange winter. Strange things in the mountains. I heard the other day there were Trollocs up in Saldaea. But that's the Borderlands then, isn't it?" He finished with his mouth still open, then snapped it shut, appearing surprised that he had said so much.
This story of Trollocs in Saldaea is being passed around as if it's strange, so it's unlikely to have anything to do with the normal raids from the Blight (which Ara does not seem to have considered before this moment). More likely it is Domon's Trollocs who were no doubt after his seal, which is another tie to Taim even though he hadn't yet been recruited.

How were the rats at the Stag and Lion killed? Did Ishamael actually show up there, like he seemingly does outside Shadar Logoth later on? Can a Fade do this? Did Rand's ta'veren-ness make the cat somehow do it?
Rats are non-domesticated animals so the living rats have reflections in Tel'aran'rhiod. Ishamael could have killed all the rats with the Power in the Dream.

Granted, I don't remember a lot of the smaller details from the three Brandon books, but a lot of Min's viewings either seem unfulfilled or too ambiguous to really know. Is Mat's laughing face anything, or just a symbol that he's sort of a trickster type of character? Does Rand's hand getting blown off count as a "bloody" hand? What about the white hot iron?
Some of these things are in the notes, and they have explanations that make it clear RJ ditched those plotlines. It's not entirely clear whether he was going to fulfill them some other way or not, but Brandon fulfilled some of them, apparently in his own way. (There are some later notes written specifically for the last book that I have not seen, so I can't be sure.)

The bloody hand, the white hot iron, and the beggar's staff, for example, were all supposed to be fulfilled through a plot that ended up getting toned down and dispersed. The core of it is the scene in Morgase's court in TEOTW. In early notes, Rand meets his daughter-of-a-queen lover (called Elyn in some drafts), but Morgase is not her mother (being a distinct other character). Her mother in this model was adapted in large part to become Elaida. Rand was to lose his hand (unspecified) and be blinded with hot irons in the come-before-the-queen scene, being forced to wander as a beggar for some time afterward.

rand
07-27-2014, 12:47 AM
Some of these things are in the notes, and they have explanations that make it clear RJ ditched those plotlines. It's not entirely clear whether he was going to fulfill them some other way or not, but Brandon fulfilled some of them, apparently in his own way. (There are some later notes written specifically for the last book that I have not seen, so I can't be sure.)

The bloody hand, the white hot iron, and the beggar's staff, for example, were all supposed to be fulfilled through a plot that ended up getting toned down and dispersed. The core of it is the scene in Morgase's court in TEOTW. In early notes, Rand meets his daughter-of-a-queen lover (called Elyn in some drafts), but Morgase is not her mother (being a distinct other character). Her mother in this model was adapted in large part to become Elaida. Rand was to lose his hand (unspecified) and be blinded with hot irons in the come-before-the-queen scene, being forced to wander as a beggar for some time afterward.
Thanks for the replies. :)

That's interesting. Was this back when RJ was planning it all as just a trilogy? Rand would have been blinded and crippled in book 1?

Since the courtroom scene takes place in the same book as Min's viewings, I guess RJ decided to keep the viewings and try to include them elsewhere (but never really did)?





A few other random things I noticed:

I wonder if the guy with the scar they meet at the Stag and Lion is just a DF like Rand thinks, and not a Whitecloak informer as Lan says. He doesn't seem to have informed the Whitecloaks of anything, or Rand and co. would have been stopped long before the gate to the Caemlyn Road was already partway open. I noticed there's mention of a strange guy from Baerlon who hid in Emond's Field for a while:
tEotW 2
It was a good five years since the last time a real stranger appeared in Emond's Field, and he had been trying to hide from some sort of trouble up in Baerlon that nobody in the village understood. He had not stayed long.

I guess it's possible this is the same guy, and he's just a DF informing Ishamael of everything going on in the Two Rivers. Not that it really matters as this is never mentioned again.

Also, did Lan know Logain from prior to the story? I don't remember hearing anything about it later, but it's emphasized twice, so I guess it could be true.

Terez
07-27-2014, 04:43 AM
Thanks for the replies. :)

That's interesting. Was this back when RJ was planning it all as just a trilogy? Rand would have been blinded and crippled in book 1?

Since the courtroom scene takes place in the same book as Min's viewings, I guess RJ decided to keep the viewings and try to include them elsewhere (but never really did)?
It was an evolving thing, and I haven't catalogued the progression yet, but the files I recall were very general early concept notes with no division of books. He was not very much for setting things in stone, and I'm guessing what happened is that he wrote the EOTW court scene taking that idea as inspiration, but he still planned on fulfilling the viewings somewhere down the road in a way similar to what he originally envisioned. I remember Dom pointed out that Elyn's mother was also transformed into Berelain in some ways. I just don't remember how. I plan on digging back into the notes when I do a reread.

Also, did Lan know Logain from prior to the story? I don't remember hearing anything about it later, but it's emphasized twice, so I guess it could be true.
My guess is he knew of Logain, and referred to him as one would any well-known person.

sleepinghour
07-27-2014, 07:24 AM
I remember Dom pointed out that Elyn's mother was also transformed into Berelain in some ways.

So did Elayne after she had gotten herself drunk in TSR (I wonder if that scene was RJ's idea of an in-joke).


Thom sighed and shook his head. At last he said stiffly, "I was not always a gleeman. I was a bard, once. A Court-bard. In Caemlyn, as it happens. For Queen Morgase. You were a child. You are just remembering things wrong, that's all."

"You were her lover, weren't you?” The flinch of his eyes was enough. "You were! I always knew about Gareth Bryne. At least, I figured it out. But I always hoped she would marry him. Gareth Bryne, and you, and this Lord Gaebril Mat said she looks calf-eyes at now, and . . . How many more? How many? What makes her any different from Berelain, tripping every man who catches her eye into her bed. She is no different—" Her vision shivered, and her head rang. It took her a moment to realize he had slapped her.

[...]

She said the first thing that came into her head. "Rand must think I'm crazy, Thom is a bard, and Berelain isn't my mother after all." Nynaeve gave her the oddest look. "I am a little dizzy for some reason. A nice boy with sweet brown eyes offered to help me upstairs."

Terez
07-27-2014, 05:11 PM
:)

rand
07-27-2014, 10:46 PM
Ok, I have a bunch of questions/comments about Shadar Logoth, but a few random things before that:

It seems fairly obvious that Thom knows exactly what Moiraine is looking for in the boys, based on his reaction to Perrin joking about Mat being Aemon reborn. Not sure I ever noticed this before.

After Shadar Logoth, Moiraine tells Nynaeve that channelers can sense people they've Healed (which is how Nynaeve found Egwene in Baerlon). Is this a tEotWism? I don't remember this really being a thing later on in the series.

Shouldn't Egwene be getting channeling sickness too?

Not sure if this is a mistake, but when Rand reaches Baerlon he's overly impressed at the size and "grandeur" of it. But when he reaches Shadar Logoth, he remembers how much better TV looked in his dream from chapter 9. Why was he impressed with Baerlon at all then?

While in Shadar Logoth, Rand has this weird dream:
tEotW 19
He had been a little boy again, carrying Tam's sword and with a cradle strapped to his back, running through empty streets, pursued by Mordeth, who shouted that he only wanted his hand. And there had been an old man who watched them and cackled with mad laughter the whole time.

It seems to just be a compilation of things Rand heard immediately before falling asleep. Lan in his cradle, Caar One-Hand, and King Balwen laughing. Not sure if there's any deeper meaning.


And a bunch of stuff more directly related to Shadar Logoth:

Terez, do you know if RJ called Finnland Sindhol in the notes? Or is it just something Brandon made up? I was just wondering if that and the name Aridhol were supposed to be connected somehow. I know (well, I think I know) that Brandon confirmed that Mordeth had visited Finnland.

I'm sure there's been theories, but the whole scene with Mordeth has always kind of confused me. What, exactly, is he trying to do to the three boys? He inflates himself, lets out a scream, deflates, then dives at the wall and slides through it. Do any of these actions mean anything?

What is Mordeth anyway? Is he just some random guy? He's described as being "sleek," with a pinched face. Is he somehow one of the Foxes?

Another thought I had connecting Mordeth with Finnland... Mashadar presumably means "shadow something" or something to do with shadow. Could Mordeth have visited the foxes and wished for a means to save Aridhol from darkfriends, but ended up unwittingly sacrificing his shadow in the process? Ie, the Finns took his shadow and created Mashadar, which turned everyone against DFs--but against each other as well. Mordeth is ammune to Mashadar because it's a part of him. I know Mordeth is portrayed as a dick by Moiraine, but all this happened 2000 years ago (or however long it was). Maybe Mordeth had good intentions to save Aridhol, but ultimately got tricked by the Finn? Sorry if this has been mentioned a kazillion times, I know there have been theories connecting Mordeth and Finnland before, but I never really read them.

Also, it seems as though Mat starts acting oddly way before he finds the dagger. Granted, he just discovered he could speak the Old Tongue (which may or may not be part of this oddness), but his actions in Shadar Logoth just seem way off to me. All of a sudden he starts leading Rand and Perrin on an almost obsessive chase to find treasure in the city. I know Mat's kind of crude like that, but still, he seems to carry on about the potential adventure/treasure of Shadar Logoth as if he's drunk.

I guess I'm sort of wondering if something happened to Mat even prior to picking up the dagger--which in itself is pretty strange, especially after Moiraine explains how cursed the place is. The only thing I can think of is the dreams with Ishamael. Could Mat have taken the drink that was offered to Rand as well? Not sure what it was supposed to be, but something seems to be up with Mat between Baerlon and Shadar Logoth (including the Old Blood incident).

Has it ever really been proven conclusively where Mat's luck came from? I know RJ joked about Mat sort of really having the DO's own luck. Could it have come from Mat drinking whatever Ishamael offered him? I don't think Mat's luck really starts until later, though... The goblet scene in Rand's dream seems out of place as it is, though. Ishamael tries to trick Rand into drinking it (I guess?), Rand refuses, and that's that. Why else include that part?

eht slat meit
07-27-2014, 11:38 PM
If I recall from reading, Aridhol is in the Compleat Old tongue being tentatively defined "City of the Second Covenant." My guess, purely speculative, it's actually *Nation of the Second Covenant*. It would honestly not surprise me if they got their name by signing into that Second Covenant with the Aes Sedai for the Ten Nations Compact.

Using the naming scheme, that would suggest that Sindhol is possibly "Nation of the First Covenant" (as opposed to the later Second and Third), and their system of doing things, not to mention the protections on the redstone doorways against Aes Sedai, is a matter of an agreement with the Aes Sedai, probably in recognition of some danger they pose to the chaotic nature of that homeland.

Terez
07-27-2014, 11:50 PM
Sindhol is literally "neverland". Alan got that from RJ's notes on the Old Tongue.

Terez
07-28-2014, 12:08 AM
It seems fairly obvious that Thom knows exactly what Moiraine is looking for in the boys, based on his reaction to Perrin joking about Mat being Aemon reborn. Not sure I ever noticed this before.
I wouldn't go that far. He still has healthy doubts about Rand in TGH. I'd say he had an inkling, but it wasn't something he liked to think about, and his reaction was supposed to be a reflection of his wandering-storyteller-who-knows-everything persona, and a hint of weird things to come along the lines of Mordeth and Lews Therin.

After Shadar Logoth, Moiraine tells Nynaeve that channelers can sense people they've Healed (which is how Nynaeve found Egwene in Baerlon). Is this a tEotWism? I don't remember this really being a thing later on in the series.
If I recall, Brandon brought it back in AMOL.

Shouldn't Egwene be getting channeling sickness too?
In the tree-cave on the way to Baerlon, in Rand's POV:

"... but some of the women die, too. It is hard to learn without a guide. The women we do not find, those who live, often become ... well, in this part of the world they might become Wisdoms of their villages." The Aes Sedai paused thoughtfully. "The old blood is strong in Emond's Field, and the old blood sings. I knew you for what you were the moment I saw you. No Aes Sedai can stand in the presence of a woman who can channel or who is close to her change, and not feel it. " She rummaged in the pouch at her belt and produced the small blue gem on a gold chain that she had earlier worn in her hair. "You are very close to your change, your first touching. It will be better if I guide you through it. That way you will avoid the ... unpleasant effects that come to those who must find their own way."

Not sure if this is a mistake, but when Rand reaches Baerlon he's overly impressed at the size and "grandeur" of it. But when he reaches Shadar Logoth, he remembers how much better TV looked in his dream from chapter 9. Why was he impressed with Baerlon at all then?
Perhaps because he didn't really think of the dream much until after the Ishamael dreams in Baerlon.

What is Mordeth anyway? Is he just some random guy? He's described as being "sleek," with a pinched face. Is he somehow one of the Foxes?
Brandon said he had been to Finnland. I haven't seen these notes; some were probably held back for the Encyclopedia.

GonzoTheGreat
07-28-2014, 04:10 AM
Also, it seems as though Mat starts acting oddly way before he finds the dagger. Granted, he just discovered he could speak the Old Tongue (which may or may not be part of this oddness), but his actions in Shadar Logoth just seem way off to me. All of a sudden he starts leading Rand and Perrin on an almost obsessive chase to find treasure in the city. I know Mat's kind of crude like that, but still, he seems to carry on about the potential adventure/treasure of Shadar Logoth as if he's drunk.
Almost as if he is under some sort of ta'veren influence, wouldn't you say?
Of course, that's rather unlikely; what are the odds that a ta'veren would have been close enough to influence him right then?

Zombie Sammael
07-28-2014, 05:31 AM
Another thought I had connecting Mordeth with Finnland... Mashadar presumably means "shadow something" or something to do with shadow. Could Mordeth have visited the foxes and wished for a means to save Aridhol from darkfriends, but ended up unwittingly sacrificing his shadow in the process? Ie, the Finns took his shadow and created Mashadar, which turned everyone against DFs--but against each other as well. Mordeth is ammune to Mashadar because it's a part of him. I know Mordeth is portrayed as a dick by Moiraine, but all this happened 2000 years ago (or however long it was). Maybe Mordeth had good intentions to save Aridhol, but ultimately got tricked by the Finn? Sorry if this has been mentioned a kazillion times, I know there have been theories connecting Mordeth and Finnland before, but I never really read them.

I speculated at one point that Mashadar actually was the weapon intended to fight against the Shadow, but went out of control and destroyed Aridhol instead. That would seem to fit nicely with your theory that it was a Finn creation.

rand
07-28-2014, 04:35 PM
I speculated at one point that Mashadar actually was the weapon intended to fight against the Shadow, but went out of control and destroyed Aridhol instead. That would seem to fit nicely with your theory that it was a Finn creation.
Cool. Guess we'll have to wait for the Encyclopedia to (hopefully) get more info. I found the Shadar Logoth stuff interesting during this reread, mostly because a lot of it's still pretty weird/mysterious even after the whole series is done.

rand
07-29-2014, 02:21 AM
I didn't read much today, but I have a few thoughts.

First, there are some very strange somewhat-out-of-context quotes regarding Mistress al'Vere:

tEotW 2
Toward Rand [Mistress al'Vere's] motherliness extended to warm smiles and a quick snack whenever he came by the inn, but she did as much for every young man in the area. If she occasionally looked at him as if she wanted to do more, at least she took it no further than looks, for which he was deeply grateful.

tEotW 25
She was Ila, Raen's wife, a head taller than her husband, and she soon made Perrin forget about the color of her clothes. She had a motherliness that reminded him of Mistress al'Vere...

Incidentally, the second quote seems to jump out of Perrin's PoV for some reason.




Ok, so Ishamael sends Rand and the others into a dream version of, presumably, the Ways. Any reason why, or is it just a menacing environment Ishy likes? Rand asks an interesting question while he's in this dream. Are Mat and Perrin in there with him? Or does Ishamael have to stage three identical dreams back to back, basically just reading from a script?

I don't remember if this is answered in tSR, but why don't the Tinkers ever travel into the Two Rivers? And why are they there in tSR, then? (I'm thinking the second question is answered in tSR, but I don't remember).

On a related note, it's said that the Tinkers "cross the Waste all the time." Why? The Aiel don't interact with them at all, so they aren't trading or looking for the Song. So are they just chilling out there? My point is, it seems like a weird place to travel just for the hell of it. It's mentioned several times (in chapter 25) that they "cross" the Waste. I'm assuming this just sort of means criss-cross, but are they going all the way to Shara?

So, it seems pretty apparent now that the murdered group of Maidens must have stumbled upon the Town, and the Trollocs chased them down (somehow?) to preserve the secret. But what was that last surviving Maiden trying to say specifically? Basically all she says is that the DO plans to "blind the Eye of the World" and "slay the Great Serpent." Was Ishamael trying to find the Eye before the Dragon Reborn could, using the nearby Red Veils to search for it? And then have him, or the Red Veils, use it up before Rand could get there?

Zombie Sammael
07-29-2014, 02:44 AM
I believe it is confirmed or at least strongly implied that the Tinkers cross the waste in order to trade with the Sharans. Presumably, they look for the Song in Shara, too.

I think your summation of Ishamael's intentions is probably correct. Remember, at this stage in the story Ishamael was the Dark One, as far as anyone knew. "Slay the great serpent" and "blind the eye of the world" might have been two different goals to Ishamael, but as far as anyone else (including random Maidens of the Spear) knew, they were a single intention; both sound like "end the world" type plans, even if one is actually only a step towards the other.

Terez
07-29-2014, 02:59 AM
I don't remember if this is answered in tSR, but why don't the Tinkers ever travel into the Two Rivers?
Probably because there's no way out except the way they came in. They prefer to travel through places, and in the Two Rivers you have to go back through the same towns on the way out. Everyone in the Two Rivers thinks the Tinkers steal children (and everything else too), so it's probably best for the Tinkers to avoid it.

And why are they there in tSR, then? (I'm thinking the second question is answered in tSR, but I don't remember).
The Whitecloaks forced the Tinkers to cross into the Two Rivers so that they couldn't spread news of Whitecloak presence in the area. Byar and Fain were at cross purposes on that matter; it was Byar who gave the order that they not be allowed to escape, but Fain wanted the news to spread because he was trying to draw Rand to the Two Rivers.

Davian93
07-29-2014, 11:25 AM
The Tinkers definitely do go to the Two Rivers occasionally as Mistress Luhhan has a tinker-mended pot.


TITLE: Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 25 - The Traveling People


"It will be getting dark soon, Elyas," Perrin said. "We have to camp somewhere. Why not with them, if they'll have us?" Mistress Luhhan had a Tinker-mended pot that she claimed was better than new. Master Luhhan was not too happy about his wife's praise of the Tinker work, but Perrin wanted to see how it was done. Yet there was a reluctance about Elyas that he did not understand. "Is there some reason we shouldn't?"

GonzoTheGreat
07-29-2014, 11:36 AM
The Tinkers definitely do go to the Two Rivers occasionally as Mistress Luhhan has a tinker-mended pot.
Perhaps Padan Fain took it to Baerlon for fixing ...

Davian93
07-29-2014, 11:40 AM
Perhaps Padan Fain took it to Baerlon for fixing ...

Seems like a bit of a stretch...

rand
07-29-2014, 12:30 PM
It wouldn't be too surprising to find out that Fain was involved in pot trafficking on top of everything else...

Terez
07-29-2014, 10:58 PM
I'm sure the Tinkers have been to the Two Rivers in the past, but they apparently haven't been near Emond's Field specifically during Perrin's lifetime, which is close to 20 years. It's possible they came as far as Watch Hill during Perrin's lifetime, in which case some but not all Emond's Fielders would have made the trip to see them (and get pots fixed).

rand
07-30-2014, 02:09 AM
When Rand and co. are on the Spray Domon mentions all the weird things he's seen or heard about. Almost all of them we see later on (Ghenjei, the crystal on Tremalking, the bowl with the spire thing, etc.), but he also mentions this:
tEotW 24
A crystal lattice covering an island, and it hums when the moon is up.

Is this supposed to be anything we've seen?

Later, when they reach Whitebridge, this happens:
tEotW 26
Rand stared even more wonderingly. From the Age of Legends. Made by Aes Sedai, then. That was why Captain Domon felt the way he did, for all his talk about the wonder and strangeness of the world. Aes Sedai work. One thing to hear about it, another to see it, and touch it. You know that, don't you? For an instant it seemed to Rand that a shadow rippled through the milk-white structure. He pulled his eyes away, to the docks coming nearer, but the bridge still loomed in the corner of his vision.

Uh...what? Is this just a random trick of the eye that's supposed to be symbolic of Rand's thoughts, or...?


When Moiraine and co. arrive in Whitebridge, she changes her mind and decides to go after Perrin instead of Rand and Mat. Her reasoning is that she doesn't know where Rand and Mat went, when A) She can apparently sense their fear, which would lead her down the Caemlyn Road, and B) She didn't really know where they were anyway until she finally sensed them in the common room at Whitebridge. So I don't really get her reasoning here.



I'm a little confused with what happens in the Tinker camp. Elyas is waiting for "something" to happen before they leave. Ishamael shows up and breaks the wolf wards on Perrin's dreams (at least, I assume that's what happened). Then he has a raven peck out Perrin's eye (which apparently has no physical effect on him in the real world) and says "I mark you mine." So what did this marking do? Can't Ishamael track them all anyway through the dreams? And apparently Ishamael breaking through the wolf wards and attacking Perrin was the secret signal Elyas was waiting for?

When they finally leave, Raen looks at the sky and says that it's an evil day (or something to that effect). Is this just a somewhat melodramatic scene in which the wise old man is able to look up at the sky and tell the day will be evil? Or can he "read the wind"? (ie, channel). Also, nothing happens that day. It's at least a day, maybe more until the ravens attack them.

When Elyas talks about Artur Hawkwing, he says that Hawkwing conquered everything "...from the Aryth Ocean to the Aiel Waste, and even some beyond the Waste." I don't remember, but Hawkwing didn't unite the Aiel along with everyone else, did he? But he apparently did make it to Shara? So are some of his descendants over there too?

I know the Whitecloaks are heading for Caemlyn, but where the heck are they coming from? They're in the middle of nowhere. And did they not have to ride through the swarms of man-eating ravens?

Also, why do the Whitecloaks smell "wrong" to Perrin. Just cause they're all assholes?

Terez
07-30-2014, 03:04 AM
When Rand and co. are on the Spray Domon mentions all the weird things he's seen or heard about. Almost all of them we see later on (Ghenjei, the crystal on Tremalking, the bowl with the spire thing, etc.), but he also mentions this:

Is this supposed to be anything we've seen?
Nope.

Later, when they reach Whitebridge, this happens:

Uh...what? Is this just a random trick of the eye that's supposed to be symbolic of Rand's thoughts, or...?
It was made partly with saidin. Perhaps Rand can sense the taint in it better than anyone because by this point he has channeled a couple of times.

When Moiraine and co. arrive in Whitebridge, she changes her mind and decides to go after Perrin instead of Rand and Mat. Her reasoning is that she doesn't know where Rand and Mat went, when A) She can apparently sense their fear, which would lead her down the Caemlyn Road, and B) She didn't really know where they were anyway until she finally sensed them in the common room at Whitebridge. So I don't really get her reasoning here.
It's a matter of precision. She could find Perrin more certainly than she could find them.

[lots of TEOTWisms]


When Elyas talks about Artur Hawkwing, he says that Hawkwing conquered everything "...from the Aryth Ocean to the Aiel Waste, and even some beyond the Waste." I don't remember, but Hawkwing didn't unite the Aiel along with everyone else, did he? But he apparently did make it to Shara? So are some of his descendants over there too?
Elyas isn't counting the Waste. The 'beyond' bit has to come from stories of the voyages of Hawkwing's children to Seanchan and Shara, though the stories about Berelain's line are apparently not believed. That expedition failed, which is why the line ended up in Mayene.

Also, why do the Whitecloaks smell "wrong" to Perrin. Just cause they're all assholes?
Perrin can smell emotions and the like; they probably smell rabid.

rand
07-30-2014, 01:28 PM
It's a matter of precision. She could find Perrin more certainly than she could find them.

[lots of TEOTWisms]

True, but her plan from the beginning was to find the two without the coins (Rand and Mat) because she knew where the other one (Perrin) was already and could find him any old time. She goes to Whitebridge to search for signs of the ones she's actually concerned about at the time, and when she finds the signs, she just changes her mind (conveniently in time to save Perrin, I guess. Maybe RJ should have just had her go after Perrin from the start?).

Terez
07-30-2014, 01:44 PM
She thought they might be in Whitebridge. She could have found them and then gone for Perrin. But they had already left, so it wasn't that easy.

rand
07-31-2014, 12:54 AM
I mostly read Rand and Mat's journey to Caemlyn today. Not a whole lot going on there, but a few things came to mind.

First, why did RJ decide to write these scenes with all the weird flashbacks? I mean, I'm saying this mostly as a joke, and it isn't really confusing or anything, but it just seems like a very odd way to write the whole thing. Maybe RJ was trying to impart some of Rand and Mat's paranoia/confusion on the reader?

I'm not really sure if we ever understand this fully, but can Myrrdraal essentially Travel through shadows? I know they apparently can for short distances, but can they hop all over Randland just by finding dark hallways and shadowy forests and stuff? Even if they can only Travel (or whatever it is they're doing) over short distances, they should be able to find Rand and Mat easily enough using this method. They'd just need to jump from shadowy tree to shadowy tree down the Caemlyn Road until they found them. Instead, they set up a network of the most incompetent DFs they could find and have them wait at various inns down the road. I mean, they're searching for the freaking Dragon Reborn! The best guy they could find to stop their mortal enemy is Paitr?!

Speaking of Paitr, when he touches Rand, Rand gets a weird vision/flashback thing of a bunch of the times Trollocs and Fades and DFs attacked them. Why does this happen? I was wondering if it was a tEotWism that made Rand see visions when he touched a DF, but only a few pages later Mili Skane touches him and nothing happens.

In his fever dream, Rand dreams about pulling Thom along, and we get the first Fisher King reference (aside from the prophecy after the prologue, at least). I never really paid much attention to this before.

Just a random thought, but do Thom and Morgase ever meet up in the series? I don't think so, but can't really remember.

I didn't remember from other reads that Loial had been to Cairhien, Tear, and Illian before going to Caemlyn. I forget if he makes any reference to these travels when he actually goes to Cairhien and Tear later.

Finally, Loial tells Rand that he (Loial) doesn't have a Talent for seeing ta'veren. Is it possible for non-channelers to have Talents? Can Ogier have them?

GonzoTheGreat
07-31-2014, 03:57 AM
Finally, Loial tells Rand that he (Loial) doesn't have a Talent for seeing ta'veren. Is it possible for non-channelers to have Talents? Can Ogier have them?
Yes, yes and also no.
Alar eyed them each in turn, then settled to a study of Rand. She looked as if she knew things; all the Elders did, but she most of all. "Verin says you are ta'veren," she said at last, "and I can feel it in you. That I can do so means that you must be very strongly ta'veren indeed, for such Talents ever run weakly in us, if at all. Have you drawn Loial, son of Arent son of Halan, into ta'maral'ailen, the Web the Pattern weaves around you?"
Apparently, Ogier don't "see" ta'veren, but "feel it in them", which explains the "no". They can have Talents, though not quite the same set as humans have (Tree Singing is one that humans don't seem to have, for instance), thus explaining the second "yes". And Ogier can't channel, which explains the first "yes".

Weird Harold
07-31-2014, 05:42 AM
I'm not really sure if we ever understand this fully, but can Myrrdraal essentially Travel through shadows? I know they apparently can for short distances, but can they hop all over Randland just by finding dark hallways and shadowy forests and stuff?

Yes, Myrddraal can travel through shadows. IIRC, there is one mention of a Fade seeking "the hard edge of shadow needed to Travel" or something to that effect.

So the can't just Travel to anyplace that is dark, they need a 'line of contrast' and the greater the contrast, the easier it is to Travel through that shadow.

I don't know of any limitation other than the need for a line of contrast. A Fade was in Ebou Dar(?) and departed via Shadow Walking, but his destination was unknown.

rand
07-31-2014, 01:51 PM
Apparently, Ogier don't "see" ta'veren, but "feel it in them", which explains the "no". They can have Talents, though not quite the same set as humans have (Tree Singing is one that humans don't seem to have, for instance), thus explaining the second "yes". And Ogier can't channel, which explains the first "yes".
Okay, yeah. I forgot those types of things were considered Talents.

Yes, Myrddraal can travel through shadows. IIRC, there is one mention of a Fade seeking "the hard edge of shadow needed to Travel" or something to that effect.

So the can't just Travel to anyplace that is dark, they need a 'line of contrast' and the greater the contrast, the easier it is to Travel through that shadow.

I don't know of any limitation other than the need for a line of contrast. A Fade was in Ebou Dar(?) and departed via Shadow Walking, but his destination was unknown.
Thanks. So I guess Fades basically can Travel anywhere, they just don't for the most part.

Terez
07-31-2014, 06:29 PM
First, why did RJ decide to write these scenes with all the weird flashbacks? I mean, I'm saying this mostly as a joke, and it isn't really confusing or anything, but it just seems like a very odd way to write the whole thing. Maybe RJ was trying to impart some of Rand and Mat's paranoia/confusion on the reader?
Something like that. It's a form of a fairly common literary device. I liked it, despite the confusion, but a lot of people didn't.

I'm not really sure if we ever understand this fully, but can Myrrdraal essentially Travel through shadows? I know they apparently can for short distances, but can they hop all over Randland just by finding dark hallways and shadowy forests and stuff? Even if they can only Travel (or whatever it is they're doing) over short distances, they should be able to find Rand and Mat easily enough using this method. They'd just need to jump from shadowy tree to shadowy tree down the Caemlyn Road until they found them. Instead, they set up a network of the most incompetent DFs they could find and have them wait at various inns down the road. I mean, they're searching for the freaking Dragon Reborn! The best guy they could find to stop their mortal enemy is Paitr?!
Fades also get weak when they're too far away from Shayol Ghul for too long. I don't think they were necessarily using the most incompetent Darkfriends they could find; it's rather supposed to demonstrate that Darkfriends were already scared of Rand after what happened to Howal Gode, and it fell to Paitr to serve tea.

Speaking of Paitr, when he touches Rand, Rand gets a weird vision/flashback thing of a bunch of the times Trollocs and Fades and DFs attacked them. Why does this happen? I was wondering if it was a tEotWism that made Rand see visions when he touched a DF, but only a few pages later Mili Skane touches him and nothing happens.
I think it was just a mundane flashback. Paitr touching him was an aggression, a sign of his desperation to follow his orders, and it just caused Rand to dwell a moment on the weight of his situation, being chased by everyone.

In his fever dream, Rand dreams about pulling Thom along, and we get the first Fisher King reference (aside from the prophecy after the prologue, at least). I never really paid much attention to this before.
I think Rand's dreams of Thom hint at a deleted scene somewhere, where Thom told him about Owyn in more detail. It would explain the Fisher King reference, the queen being wed to the land, and the mention of the Black Ajah when no one in the story had yet mentioned any of those things to Rand. (See ch. 33.) All those details are connected to Owyn, especially since the Black was mentioned in connection with the Red.

Just a random thought, but do Thom and Morgase ever meet up in the series? I don't think so, but can't really remember.
I can't recall if they met in the Brandon books, but I don't think they did. I know they didn't meet in the RJ books. But there's a nice scene in TFOH where he meets Bryne. :)

I didn't remember from other reads that Loial had been to Cairhien, Tear, and Illian before going to Caemlyn. I forget if he makes any reference to these travels when he actually goes to Cairhien and Tear later.
He does, but not in great detail. For example, in Cairhien, he says that when he was there before, the area where Barthanes made his manor house (site of the old Ogier grove) was wooded.

rand
08-01-2014, 12:44 AM
I think Rand's dreams of Thom hint at a deleted scene somewhere, where Thom told him about Owyn in more detail. It would explain the Fisher King reference, the queen being wed to the land, and the mention of the Black Ajah when no one in the story had yet mentioned any of those things to Rand. (See ch. 33.) All those details are connected to Owyn, especially since the Black was mentioned in connection with the Red.
Interesting. I was wondering about the Black Ajah thing too. I think Elyas mentioned it, but Thom hadn't. Is the deleted scene just a theory of yours or something from the notes?




Not sure if this is a mistake or not, but when escaping from the Whitecloaks Perrin gets lost in the darkness and needs Lan to call him so he can find his way back from stealing a couple WC cloaks. What happened to his wolf eyes? It was already established that he could see unnaturally well at night in the initial WC attack.

One of the reasons Morgase believes Rand's story is that she's heard a Two Rivers accent before. She also mentions specifically that Bryne and Elaida weren't with her when this happened. Who did she hear? Since Kari's from Andor, and Tam's the only TR person we know of who left the TR, did Morgase meet Tam at some point? Or did one of those weirdos from Taren Ferry venture outside to Caemlyn?

It's interesting that three consecutive Rand PoV chapters all have similar names: "Web of the Pattern," "Weaving of the Web," and "The Web Tightens." Most of the chapters names seem to come from quotes, or at least major themes of the chapters, but these are more abstract (they're the chapters where Rand meets Loial, goes to see Logain, and meets Elayne). Is it just to build up to the significance of his meeting with characters like Elayne, Gawyn, Elaida, etc? Or at least Elaida's revelation that Rand's at the center of everything? (which, in hindsight, should have been a pretty big hint to Rand that he was the one the DO was after--assuming he believed Elaida).

Since Moiraine and co. were presumably traveling as fast as possible to Caemlyn (after rescuing Perrin) to reach Rand and Mat in time, how could the Whitecloaks have possibly beat them there, traveling cross-country, encumbered with all kinds of tents and stuff, and with 200 men? Unless they just sent a scout ahead or something...

Is it ever mentioned where the Trolloc army outside Caemlyn goes after everyone escapes through the Ways?

This is just kind of a stupid observation on my part, but how on earth did the Maidens and Jain Farstrider happen to stumble upon the exact same news in the Blight (same words and everything) seventeen years apart from each other? Was Ishamael having nightly "we'll blind the Eye of the World and slay the Great Serpent! Woo!" speeches in the Town every night for several decades?

Terez
08-01-2014, 01:45 AM
Interesting. I was wondering about the Black Ajah thing too. I think Elyas mentioned it, but Thom hadn't. Is the deleted scene just a theory of yours or something from the notes?
I forgot to look for it when I had the chance. I hope to go again some day.

One of the reasons Morgase believes Rand's story is that she's heard a Two Rivers accent before. She also mentions specifically that Bryne and Elaida weren't with her when this happened. Who did she hear? Since Kari's from Andor, and Tam's the only TR person we know of who left the TR, did Morgase meet Tam at some point?
That has always been the going theory, but I can't remember whether it has been debunked or not.

It's interesting that three consecutive Rand PoV chapters all have similar names: "Web of the Pattern," "Weaving of the Web," and "The Web Tightens." Most of the chapters names seem to come from quotes, or at least major themes of the chapters, but these are more abstract (they're the chapters where Rand meets Loial, goes to see Logain, and meets Elayne). Is it just to build up to the significance of his meeting with characters like Elayne, Gawyn, Elaida, etc? Or at least Elaida's revelation that Rand's at the center of everything? (which, in hindsight, should have been a pretty big hint to Rand that he was the one the DO was after--assuming he believed Elaida).
It's all to do with Rand's role and how the Pattern is using him to shape events.

Is it ever mentioned where the Trolloc army outside Caemlyn goes after everyone escapes through the Ways?
It was probably not quite an army. I don't think there was any mention of them after.

This is just kind of a stupid observation on my part, but how on earth did the Maidens and Jain Farstrider happen to stumble upon the exact same news in the Blight (same words and everything) seventeen years apart from each other? Was Ishamael having nightly "we'll blind the Eye of the World and slay the Great Serpent! Woo!" speeches in the Town every night for several decades?
Farstrider was given the information by Ishamael himself, who claimed it was all part of his plan to draw Rand to Shayol Ghul.

rand
08-01-2014, 02:03 AM
Ok, theory time. I've never heard of this theory before, which means I must be the first to think of it.

I have heard people mention that maybe Mat is King Aemon reborn. Which is silly, of course. But what if Mat is Caar reborn? All of a sudden it's sounding pretty juicy. Huh? Huh?

LOL. Seriously though, this is a theory I just came up with that most likely is of no importance anyway now that the series is over with. But anyway...

Mat = Caar al Thorin al Toren reborn

First, I'll quote Moiraine's story about Aridhol, since I tend to forget most of this part right after reading it:
tEotW 19
"Once it was called Aridhol," Moiraine replied, "and was one of the Ten Nations, the lands that made the Second Covenant, the lands that stood against the Dark One from the first days after the Breaking of the World. In the days when Thorin al Toren al Ban was King of Manetheren, the King of Aridhol was Balwen Mayel, Balwen Ironhand. In a twilight of despair during the Trolloc Wars, when it seemed the Father of Lies must surely conquer, the man called Mordeth came to Balwen's court."

"Before Mordeth had long been in the city he had Balwen's ear, and soon he was second only to the King. Mordeth whispered poison in Balwen's ear, and Aridhol began to change. Aridhol drew in on itself, hardened. It was said that some would rather see Trollocs come than the men of Aridhol. The victory of the Light is all. That was the battlecry Mordeth gave them, and the men of Aridhol shouted it while their deeds abandoned the Light."

"The story is too long to tell in full, and too grim, and only fragments are known, even in Tar Valon. How Thorin's son, Caar, came to win Aridhol back to the Second Covenant, and Balwen sat his throne, a withered shell with the light of madness in his eyes, laughing while Mordeth smiled at his side and ordered the deaths of Caar and the embassy as Friends of the Dark. How Prince Caar came to be known as Caar One-Hand. How he escaped the dungeons of Aridhol and fled alone to the Borderlands with Mordeth's unnatural assassins at his heels. How there he met Rhea, who did not know who he was, and married her, and set the skein of the Pattern that led to his death at her hands, and hers by her own hand before his tomb, and the Fall of Aleth-Loriel. How the armies of Manetheren came to avenge Caar and found the gates of Aridhol torn down, no living things inside the walls, but something worse than death. No enemy had come to Aridhol but Aridhol. Suspicion and hate had given birth to something that fed on that which created it, something locked in the bedrock on which the city stood. Mashadar waits still, hungering. Men spoke of Aridhol no more. They named it Shadar Logoth, the Place Where the Shadow Waits, or more simply Shadow's Waiting."

"Mordeth alone was not consumed by Mashadar, but he was snared by it, and he, too, has waited within these walls through the long centuries. Others have seen him. Some he has influenced through gifts that twist the mind and taint the spirit, the taint waxing and waning until it rules...or kills. If ever he convinces someone to accompany him to the walls, to the boundary of Mashadar's power, he will be able to consume the soul of that person. Mordeth will leave, wearing the body of the one he worse than killed, to wreak his evil on the world again."

Not sure if all that's really necessary, but whatever. My theory is that the ruby dagger was Mordeth's personal dagger, and that he used it to cut off Caar's hand. The fact that Mat's soul had already been influenced by the dagger would explain a few things.

First, it's possible that Mat grabbing the dagger caused Mordeth to stop attacking them in the treasure room. Mordeth freaks out when they mention Tar Valon, then starts to swell up after Rand announces he has no shadow. Mordeth swells up to attack, and everyone dives back on the treasure. Then Mordeth let's out an "agonized scream," shrinks, and goes flying through the crack in the wall. Rand looks at Mat several times in this scene, and it's pretty clear Mat didn't have the dagger until just before super Mordeth screamed and blew up. The point is that Mat picking up the dagger--and that dagger specifically--somehow affected Mordeth. I'm not so sure it was a physical thing so much as Mordeth somehow was able to recognize who had picked up that specific dagger, and it scared him away. His "You're all dead!" cries make sense if you assume he's referring to Caar and the embassy.

Second, Moiraine mentions that she is surprised how long Mat managed to survive with the dagger once she meets him in Caemlyn. Well, sort of: "It is a wonder you got this far, carrying this." Perhaps the fact that his soul is already connected to the dagger has something to do with the fact that he can hold off its effects for a substantial period of time.

And finally, Mat is still immune to the dagger at the end of aMoL. There's probably a better explaination for why this is, but again, it could be his connection to Caar.

I'm wondering who Rhea is, if anyone. Or what Aleth-Loriel is, aside from shampoo. Maybe they have parallels in Mat's life? Getting chased by unnatural assassins sounds familiar, at least.

Also, FWIW, Moiraine's whole story is very LOTRy. A lot of the names are dwarven (Thorin, Toren, Ironhand--and of course these are probably Norse as well) or Elven (Aleth-Loriel). And the writing, particularly the long third paragraph, sounds like something straight from Tolkien. Not sure if any of this means anything, though.

Well, that's it I guess. Probably pretty stupid, but I just thought of it and I don't think anyone else has.

EDIT: I almost forgot to add the most obvious bit of evidence. Carr's name begins with "ca" and so does Cauthon. So that proves it right there.

Terez
08-01-2014, 03:03 AM
Well, it's possible he's Caar reborn but he has Aemon's memories through the Old Blood, and the battle he remembered (when he woke up from being Healed in TDR) was after Caar's death. Cauthon might be derived from Caarson (Caar's son), but then al'Caar is truer to the original naming conventions.

In other words, most people who were paying attention thought Mat was merely descended from Aemon rather than being Aemon reborn.

Mat is immune to the dagger because he was Healed of its influence in Tar Valon.

GonzoTheGreat
08-01-2014, 05:03 AM
Fades also get weak when they're too far away from Shayol Ghul for too long. I don't think they were necessarily using the most incompetent Darkfriends they could find; it's rather supposed to demonstrate that Darkfriends were already scared of Rand after what happened to Howal Gode, and it fell to Paitr to serve tea.
I am not sure that it is true in general that Fades suffer anything if they are far away from SG. It always seemed to me that that was a specific problem for Shaidar Haran, the Super Fade (ref: end of chapter 40 ACoS).

Do you have any indication at all that it is a weakness shared by other Fades?

Terez
08-01-2014, 05:56 AM
I am not sure that it is true in general that Fades suffer anything if they are far away from SG. It always seemed to me that that was a specific problem for Shaidar Haran, the Super Fade (ref: end of chapter 40 ACoS).

Do you have any indication at all that it is a weakness shared by other Fades?
Do you have any indication at all that it wasn't? Why would Shaidar Haran have some weakness that other Fades lacked?

Weird Harold
08-01-2014, 08:01 AM
Do you have any indication at all that it wasn't? Why would Shaidar Haran have some weakness that other Fades lacked?
For the same reason that Shadar Haran smiles when other Fades don't -- He is a direct avatar (or ROV) of the DO.

GonzoTheGreat
08-01-2014, 08:07 AM
Do you have any indication at all that it wasn't? Why would Shaidar Haran have some weakness that other Fades lacked?
Because his direct link to the DO depends on the DO being able to maintain that link, and it was easier for the DO to do so at SG than anywhere else in the world.

SH was an avatar of the DO, basically a way for the DO to directly touch the world. It makes a lot of sense for that to be (mostly) limited to the region where he can touch the world, which means the Pit of Doom.
On the other hand, there is no sensible reason why Myrddraal in general (and they alone amongst Shadowspawn) should have such a problem.

Terez
08-01-2014, 08:33 AM
For the same reason that Shadar Haran smiles when other Fades don't -- He is a direct avatar (or ROV) of the DO.
That should confer strengths rather than weaknesses.

Because his direct link to the DO depends on the DO being able to maintain that link, and it was easier for the DO to do so at SG than anywhere else in the world.

SH was an avatar of the DO, basically a way for the DO to directly touch the world. It makes a lot of sense for that to be (mostly) limited to the region where he can touch the world, which means the Pit of Doom.
He can do that directly.

On the other hand, there is no sensible reason why Myrddraal in general (and they alone amongst Shadowspawn) should have such a problem.
They are made from the same evil. And besides, it would explain why Darkfriends are necessary. Plenty of Fades to do the Dark One's dirty work...unless they have limitations.

rand
08-01-2014, 11:47 PM
I was hoping to finish tEotW tonight, but that will have to wait till tomorrow. Instead here's a whole slew of random questions/comments:

When Moiraine's talking with Loial about the Ways, she mentions she's of the Blue Ajah. As far as I can remember, this is the first time she's done so. Maybe she mentioned it off screen to everyone else, but If not Rand and co. should be wondering if she's really Red Ajah, which at this point is made out to be the Slytherin of the White Tower.

When Moiraine leaves The Queen's Blessing, she tells Gill to get help from Sheriam if he gets in trouble because of her. Is this sort of a tEotWism, since RJ hadn't come up with a kazillion other named Aes Sedai yet? Wouldn't a Blue Sitter or the leader (forget the title) be a better option than the Mistress of Novices?

Convenient that the shopkeeper above the Waygate built a cellar with ten-foot ceilings and a bulkhead that allows horses to fit/ride down it.

It's kind of funny that Rand's more amazed at the fact that the platforms in the Ways defy gravity than the fact that's he's in another dimension that can transport him anywhere in Randland in a few hours.

It's nice of Loial to wait to warn Rand not to charge at the Waygate until after he's already gone through.

Rand apparently forgets that Min told him Thom was part of everything.

At one point Loial says you can't navigate the Ways without an Ogier guide, even if you can read the Ogier tongue. Apparently he's wrong about this.

Something I never noticed before is that the Trollocs caught in the trap in the Ways (the ones half sunk into the stone) were on the bridge that would lead them to Tar Valon, according the Loial. Were the Trollocs attacking TV and just got killed before they could make it?

How did the key go missing from the Fal Dara Waygate? Did Ingtar or some random DF from Fal Dara take it?

Did Moiraine use balefire on the Black Wind? Her weave's described as "liquid light" and "a syrup of fire," but also "a blazing spear of white and red and yellow." Not a perfect match in description, but it seems like a desperate enough time for Moiraine to use BF.

Why do they speak the Old Tongue in Shienar?

I'm wondering now about the significance of Rand's actions at Tarwin's Gap. I think a lot of people tend to forget about this (I do, at least). How many Trollocs does Rand kill here (I haven't actually gotten to this scene yet). From what Ingtar and Agelmar say, the Trollocs could easily overrun Shienar and outnumber the soldiers there ten to one. My point is, did the DO and Ishamael legitimately think they could overrun all of Randland here and start the Last Battle? Was Rand's destruction of the Trolloc army the only reason they had to wait another year or two (or whatever it is) to start the Last Battle again?

On a somewhat related note, it's kind of ironic in hindsight that Moiraine seems to legitimately believe that they can destroy the DO once and for all at the Eye.

Moiraine's conversation with Agelmar makes it nearly beyond obvious that at least one of the three boys can channel, yet they still don't seem to get it. Rand might, but then he forgets it in time to be surprised again when he really does find out he can channel. I guess you can just chalk it up to the three of them trying as hard as possible to ignore all the evidence, since it's such a horrible fate as they see it.

I'm pretty sure this is never answered, but are there any theories as to why Moiraine visited the Eye previously?

Agelmar asks how Fain could have reached the walls of Fal Dara unseen, and the only answer he gets is when Ingtar says something stupid about how the Light must have blinded the guards on the wall. But how did Fain sneak in? I forget, does he have the power to conceal himself someway? Mordeth can apparently expand and possibly shrink... But if Fain has a stealth mode you'd think he'd use it more often.

Part of Lan's oath is that he has to "stand against the Shadow so long as iron is hard and stone abides." So is released from his oath after the bubbles of evil actually make this stuff happen?

So we know the Fade who may be Shadar Haran is with Fain at Shadar Logoth. Was it his presence that enabled Ba'alzamon to appear there? I know Ba'alzamon is Ishamael and not the DO, but Ishamael doesn't seem able to appear in the world physically at this point either.

There are several mentions of other "things" residing in Shadar Logoth, despite the fact that Moiraine also says (I believe) that Mordeth and Mashadar are the only residents. There's the "unnatural assassins" from Moiraine's story that chase Caar from Shadar Logoth. Fain says the Trollocs with him were "consumed by Mashadar and other things." And when she talks about her wards in SL, Moiraine says "[Mordeth] cannot cross the ward lines, nor can any other denizen of this place. And they must hide from the sunlight, so we can leave safely once it is day." I'm guessing this is a reference to the unseen eyes or "watchers" that they feel. But what are they? Actual creatures? Ghosts of the residents of Aridhol? Even though we never see them, they apparently can come out to attack, as they did with the Trollocs. I never really thought of the watchers as being anything more than "the evil of Shadar Logoth" or something vague like that.

The fact that Fain's guidance system lead him right by Perrin (while following Rand and Mat to Caemlyn) probably rules him out as being the DR at this point, though Moiraine never mentions if she thinks this way or not.






Okay, this is just something random I thought of based on a description of Lan, but does Rand gain the extra strength/stamina/senses of a Warder after bonding the three girls? Do Aes Sedai bonded by Asha'man get this stuff?

Terez
08-02-2014, 02:04 AM
When Moiraine's talking with Loial about the Ways, she mentions she's of the Blue Ajah. As far as I can remember, this is the first time she's done so. Maybe she mentioned it off screen to everyone else, but If not Rand and co. should be wondering if she's really Red Ajah, which at this point is made out to be the Slytherin of the White Tower.
Back in the tree cave, she speaks of the Red Ajah as "they" rather than "we". In Rand's POV (just before the bit I quoted earlier):

"Child," Moiraine said gently, "only a very few can learn to touch the True Source and use the One Power. Some of those can learn to a greater degree, some to a lesser. You are one of the bare handful for whom there is no need to learn. At least, touching the Source will come to you whether you want it or not. Without the teaching you can receive in Tar Valon, though, you will never learn to channel it fully, and you may not survive. Men who have the ability to touch saidin born in them die, of course, if the Red Ajah does not find them and gentle them ..."

Thom growled deep in his throat, and Rand shifted uncomfortably. Men like those of whom the Aes Sedai spoke were rare – he had only heard of three in his whole life, and thank the Light never in the Two Rivers – but the damage they did before the Aes Sedai found them was always bad enough for the news to carry, like the news of wars, or earthquakes that destroyed cities. He had never really understood what the Ajahs did. According to the stories they were societies among the Aes Sedai that seemed to plot and squabble among themselves more than anything else, but the stories were clear on one point. The Red Ajah held its prime duty to be the prevention of another Breaking of the World, and they did it by hunting down every man who even dreamed of wielding the One Power. Mat and Perrin looked as if they suddenly wished they were back home in their beds.

When Moiraine leaves The Queen's Blessing, she tells Gill to get help from Sheriam if he gets in trouble because of her. Is this sort of a tEotWism, since RJ hadn't come up with a kazillion other named Aes Sedai yet? Wouldn't a Blue Sitter or the leader (forget the title) be a better option than the Mistress of Novices?
It doesn't have to be a TEOTWism in this case; Sheriam was someone Moiraine thought she could trust, someone close to Siuan. The real TEOTWism is Morgase thinking about Sheriam being Mistress of Novices at a time when she was probably still a novice.

Convenient that the shopkeeper above the Waygate built a cellar with ten-foot ceilings and a bulkhead that allows horses to fit/ride down it.
Probably because the person who had it built knew what the Waygate was. Not everything is a mere plot convenience. :p

Something I never noticed before is that the Trollocs caught in the trap in the Ways (the ones half sunk into the stone) were on the bridge that would lead them to Tar Valon, according the Loial. Were the Trollocs attacking TV and just got killed before they could make it?
Perhaps, but the bridge probably also went other places, and they might have been going wherever for a specific purpose, maybe a sword raid, rather than an attack.

How did the key go missing from the Fal Dara Waygate? Did Ingtar or some random DF from Fal Dara take it?
Maybe on Ishamael's orders.

Did Moiraine use balefire on the Black Wind? Her weave's described as "liquid light" and "a syrup of fire," but also "a blazing spear of white and red and yellow." Not a perfect match in description, but it seems like a desperate enough time for Moiraine to use BF.
It's hard to tell because her channeling is tainted by the Ways. Balefire doesn't have red and yellow.

Why do they speak the Old Tongue in Shienar?
Because they value tradition and ritual.

I'm wondering now about the significance of Rand's actions at Tarwin's Gap. I think a lot of people tend to forget about this (I do, at least). How many Trollocs does Rand kill here (I haven't actually gotten to this scene yet). From what Ingtar and Agelmar say, the Trollocs could easily overrun Shienar and outnumber the soldiers there ten to one. My point is, did the DO and Ishamael legitimately think they could overrun all of Randland here and start the Last Battle? Was Rand's destruction of the Trolloc army the only reason they had to wait another year or two (or whatever it is) to start the Last Battle again?
The long winter was the first sign of the weakening seal on the Dark One's prison. They were feeling their oats, or Ishamael was, and the Dragon Reborn had yet to appear. It was as good a time to attack as any.

On a somewhat related note, it's kind of ironic in hindsight that Moiraine seems to legitimately believe that they can destroy the DO once and for all at the Eye.
Does she? I'm not so sure.

I'm pretty sure this is never answered, but are there any theories as to why Moiraine visited the Eye previously?
Presumably something to do with her quest to find Rand and the involvement of the Black Ajah.

Agelmar asks how Fain could have reached the walls of Fal Dara unseen, and the only answer he gets is when Ingtar says something stupid about how the Light must have blinded the guards on the wall. But how did Fain sneak in? I forget, does he have the power to conceal himself someway? Mordeth can apparently expand and possibly shrink... But if Fain has a stealth mode you'd think he'd use it more often.
Ingtar probably let him in. We know for sure that 1) Ingtar helped him escape, and 2) Ingtar was ordered to let a Gray Man inside the gates.

So we know the Fade who may be Shadar Haran is with Fain at Shadar Logoth. Was it his presence that enabled Ba'alzamon to appear there? I know Ba'alzamon is Ishamael and not the DO, but Ishamael doesn't seem able to appear in the world physically at this point either.
Not sure about Shaidar Haran being there. I think Ishamael's ability to escape the trap has something to do with Tel'aran'rhiod.

I'm guessing this is a reference to the unseen eyes or "watchers" that they feel. But what are they? Actual creatures? Ghosts of the residents of Aridhol? Even though we never see them, they apparently can come out to attack, as they did with the Trollocs. I never really thought of the watchers as being anything more than "the evil of Shadar Logoth" or something vague like that.
I'm guessing Mashadar absorbs the memories of the people it kills, so that they continue to exist in some small way.

The fact that Fain's guidance system lead him right by Perrin (while following Rand and Mat to Caemlyn) probably rules him out as being the DR at this point, though Moiraine never mentions if she thinks this way or not.
By the time she heard Fain's story, she already had clues. Rand's resistance, Bela, the scene with Elaida in Caemlyn. As she says, suspicions are not proof.

Okay, this is just something random I thought of based on a description of Lan, but does Rand gain the extra strength/stamina/senses of a Warder after bonding the three girls? Do Aes Sedai bonded by Asha'man get this stuff?
I suppose it depends on the weave, and whether it makes a difference if the Warder is a channeler or not. Rand's bond from Alanna should have given him all those things, but Elayne's bond was something she concocted based on the Aes Sedai Warder bond, and the Asha'man bond is something they invented on their own.

rand
08-03-2014, 12:20 AM
The real TEOTWism is Morgase thinking about Sheriam being Mistress of Novices at a time when she was probably still a novice.
Wouldn't that be a TDRism?

Does she? I'm not so sure.
Well, after Agelmar freaks out over the fact that the DO might be loose already, she replies: "Not yet. If we win at the Eye of the World, perhaps not ever again."

Granted, I guess she could just be saying this on the off chance that Rand somehow does manage to defeat the DO. The "perhaps" keeps it from being a lie, at least.

Ingtar probably let him in. We know for sure that 1) Ingtar helped him escape, and 2) Ingtar was ordered to let a Gray Man inside the gates.
That still wouldn't explain how no one noticed him cross the field (twice) and scale the wall.





Ok, I finished.

I noticed the map at the front of tEotW (the b/w one, not the color one from later books) is pretty inaccurate in regard to Fal Dara, Fal Moran, and Tarwin's Gap. The enlarged map before the "Fal Dara" chapter seems to be the accurate one based on the info in the book (Tarwin's Gap is east of Fal Dara, not west), and the colored maps in later books seems to confirm this.

Just kind of a random speculation, but do the Worms transform into the giant octopus with stingers and hands thing in the lake? I know they supposedly don't transform anymore, but that could be the last one and it's remained hidden. It seems pretty big in any case...

When Egwene's going on about dragging everyone else along with her to Tar Valon, Moiraine comments to Rand that she can "find something for you to do in Tar Valon. [...] Not herding sheep, perhaps, but something you will find interesting." This isn't necessarily a lie, perse, but what could Rand possibly find "interesting" in TV at this stage? I guess he could find the architecture somewhat pleasing before the Red Ajah arrests and gentles him.

And a somewhat related question, are the Three Oaths around yet in Book 1? I know Tam warns Rand about how the truths AS say aren't necessarily the truths you think they're saying and all that, but are they ever said to be magically bound not to lie? In other words, was RJ working under the idea that nothing Moiraine says can be a lie?

When Rand sees the ancient symbol of the AS above the Eye tunnel entrance, he immediately recognizes it. Is this a LTT thing, or just common knowledge?

Why did the Green Man leave his post at the Eye 2000 years ago to see Avendesora in Rhuidean? Is this a mistake, or did he just have some vacation time coming after the first 1000 years?

When she's talking about how the Eye was created, Moiraine makes it clear that she knows about the channelers in Shara, but doesn't mention the Wise Ones. I know they're kind of a secret, but how would Randland Aes Sedai know all about channelers in Shara but not the Aiel Waste?

Aginor apparently know which of the three boys is the DR when he gets to the Eye. Did the DO or Ishamael finally find out, or did Aginor just sense Rand's ability to channel when they walked up?

I'm not sure I ever really understood the funny black cord things the Forsaken are sometimes attached to. I tried looking at the FAQ, but it's apparently inconsistent whether or not they always have the cords, or if they're sometimes in TAR but not other times, etc. Rand severing Asmo's cord seems to have a very different effect than severing Ishamael's cord.

Did RJ really write this with a straight face?:
Ba'alzamon had a cord, too, he saw. A black cord, thicker by far than his own.

Has it ever been confirmed who the VOICE is? Or who the CHOSEN ONE is?

Is Kari al'Thor real in this scene? Like, has Ishamael really been torturing the soul of Rand's "mom" for the past fifteen years or whatever it's been? Or is she just an illusion?

Why does Moiraine think it's necessary for the Horn to go to Illian? I forget of this is answered in tGH or not...



Well, 1 down, 13 more to go...

GonzoTheGreat
08-03-2014, 04:17 AM
Why does Moiraine think it's necessary for the Horn to go to Illian? I forget of this is answered in tGH or not...
Everyone thinks the Horn should go to Illian, that's why the Hunt For The Horn is called there and not somewhere else.
And we never learn why this is the case, the issue is tacitly ignored once Rand conquers Tear.

rand
08-04-2014, 01:18 AM
I didn't get around to much reading today, so I'll just post a few things regarding the tGH prologue.

I know RJ uses a lot of references to Arthurian Legend, but Jaichim Carridin's alias Bors doesn't seem to have much of a parallel with Sir Bors. Though admittedly I don't know much about him. He gets killed by the rabbit in Monty Python, I think.

Ishamael tells everyone that the room they're in is near Shayol Ghul. So is there an actual house there? Is this supposed to be the same building Ishamael kept making Rand visit in the dreams from tEotW? I'm guessing Ishamael's Blight fortress from ToM is further away from Shayol Ghul than this.

Bors is able to tell one guy is from the Sea Folk because of tattoos on his hands, but beyond that he thinks the guy could be anyone from anywhere. But wouldn't he be black skinned?

I mentioned before that Ishamael may have needed Shaidar Haran's presence in order to appear at Shadar Logoth. Not sure if that's true at all, but the two of them appear here together...

Saying "Ba'alzamon" is apparently just as bad as saying "Shai'tan" (for DFs, at least). And come to think of it, how do people learn that the DO's name is Shai'tan anyway? If so few people say it, a Randland version of the telephone game could have drastically changed his name over the millennia (say, from Steven).

Does Ishamael know that Mat and Perrin are ta'veren, or otherwise massively important, at this point? He wants all three men killed (or maybe not; he seems a little confused on that point), but he doesn't tell the DFs which one is the actually DR. Anyway, why does Ishamael still care about Mat and Perrin? He could just have Ingtar or Liandrin kill them both easily.

Finally, I wanted to make a list of the people at the Darkfriend Ice Cream Social to see which ones we can identify (which isn't too many, at least for certain):
Bors Jaichim Carridin
Illianer noblewoman ?
Gray-cloaked 'figure' of unknown gender No idea. S/he's talking to the Illianer noblewoman, FWIW
Shienaran soldier Ingtar
Someone from Kandor ?
Someone from Cairhien Barthanes? I'm sure there's more from here, though.
Someone from Saldaea Kadere?
Someone from Ghealdan ?
A Tinker male ? I don't think Aram was a DF...
A High Lord of Tear Weiramon?
Andorran Officer in Queen's Guards Daved Hanlon?
Sea Folk male ?
Black Ajah 1 Liandrin
Black Ajah 2 ? (could be anyone, unless Alviarin mentions being here and I forgot...)


So Carridin, Ingtar, and Liandrin are the only ones we know for sure (I think).

Terez
08-04-2014, 04:47 AM
I didn't get around to much reading today, so I'll just post a few things regarding the tGH prologue.

I know RJ uses a lot of references to Arthurian Legend, but Jaichim Carridin's alias Bors doesn't seem to have much of a parallel with Sir Bors. Though admittedly I don't know much about him. He gets killed by the rabbit in Monty Python, I think.
I believe that RJ's Arthurian parallels were for the most part "we'll see where I go with this". RJ ended up not liking where he went with Carridin, so he just killed him. He was originally supposed to play a more important role.

Ishamael tells everyone that the room they're in is near Shayol Ghul. So is there an actual house there? Is this supposed to be the same building Ishamael kept making Rand visit in the dreams from tEotW?
The description is very different. Since the Pattern is so thin at Shayol Ghul, it has properties similar to Tel'aran'rhiod. Moghedien and others seem to think that it's that way because of the Dark One, but it's more likely the original thinness through which Lanfear et al. could sense the True Power on the other side. Any houses that exist near Shayol Ghul might or might not exist in the real world.

Bors is able to tell one guy is from the Sea Folk because of tattoos on his hands, but beyond that he thinks the guy could be anyone from anywhere. But wouldn't he be black skinned?
I think his point was that he could be anyone from anywhere if his hands weren't showing. His disguise was otherwise good.

Saying "Ba'alzamon" is apparently just as bad as saying "Shai'tan" (for DFs, at least). And come to think of it, how do people learn that the DO's name is Shai'tan anyway? If so few people say it, a Randland version of the telephone game could have drastically changed his name over the millennia (say, from Steven).
It can be written.

Does Ishamael know that Mat and Perrin are ta'veren, or otherwise massively important, at this point?
He is probably the most skilled at reading the Pattern to find ta'veren. That is why he appears in all three of their dreams (and also because he's not entirely sure which is Lews Therin reborn).

He wants all three men killed (or maybe not; he seems a little confused on that point), but he doesn't tell the DFs which one is the actually DR. Anyway, why does Ishamael still care about Mat and Perrin? He could just have Ingtar or Liandrin kill them both easily.
They were both there. They may have had specific orders along those lines, but Brandon posited in TOM that trying to kill a ta'veren before their time is tricky business, so he might have been reluctant to waste his key players on such orders.

Finally, I wanted to make a list of the people at the Darkfriend Ice Cream Social to see which ones we can identify (which isn't too many, at least for certain):
Bors Jaichim Carridin
Illianer noblewoman --never revealed
Gray-cloaked 'figure' of unknown gender ... Bela.
Shienaran soldier Ingtar
Someone from Kandor ?
Someone from Cairhien Barthanes? ... Probably. This seems to be a meeting of the top tier power players aside from Aes Sedai, and no one else was that high in Cairhien. Weiramon might have tried to recruit Bertome Saighan later.
Someone from Saldaea Kadere? Probably not, see above. I am guessing Brandon wrote in Vram Torkumen in TOM partly because of the Darkfriend Social.
Someone from Ghealdan ? Could be anyone; we hardly knew any important people from there at all aside from Alliandre and Logain.
A Tinker male? I don't think Aram was a DF... He wasn't, and he wasn't important anyway.
A High Lord of Tear Weiramon? Almost certainly.
Andorran Officer in Queen's Guards Daved Hanlon? Possibly. I seem to remember that the timing wasn't quite right for some reason. Rahvin replaced most of the Queen's Guard with his own men—eventually, all but Tallanvor. Rahvin did not become a thing in Caemlyn until after Morgase went to Tar Valon for Elayne, and that was while they were gone from the Tower in TGH, so that hasn't happened yet at this point. I'd say it was Lord Comar but it's not exactly clear when he was dismissed from the Guard for his weighted dice.
Sea Folk male I can't remember if Brandon named one or not, but there was never a male Sea Folk Darkfriend revealed in the RJ books.
Black Ajah 1 Liandrin
Black Ajah 2 ? ... I'd guess not Alviarin. Liandrin was not a top dog, so I'm guessing the top dogs were too high to be required to attend (unlike the non-channeling Darkfriends). There were a bunch of Darkfriends with Siuan, but only Verin and Liandrin showed signs of having Very Important Orders. You could say Verin wouldn't have been stupid enough to let her ring show, but maybe she wanted to let everyone in the room know she was dangerous and to stay the fuck away from her.

Kimon
08-04-2014, 10:44 AM
I know RJ uses a lot of references to Arthurian Legend, but Jaichim Carridin's alias Bors doesn't seem to have much of a parallel with Sir Bors. Though admittedly I don't know much about him. He gets killed by the rabbit in Monty Python, I think.



Bors was Lancelot's cousin and was one of only three knights to achieve the Grail Quest - along with Galahad and Percival. So he was one of the most virtuous of the Knights of the Round Table...yeah, kind of an odd choice. You're right about the rabbit though, and in T.H. White's version he's kind of a dick.

rand
08-05-2014, 12:38 AM
Black Ajah 2 ? ... I'd guess not Alviarin. Liandrin was not a top dog, so I'm guessing the top dogs were too high to be required to attend (unlike the non-channeling Darkfriends). There were a bunch of Darkfriends with Siuan, but only Verin and Liandrin showed signs of having Very Important Orders. You could say Verin wouldn't have been stupid enough to let her ring show, but maybe she wanted to let everyone in the room know she was dangerous and to stay the fuck away from her.
Yeah, I just checked your interview database and Maria said (to you, I think) that Verin was there. She could always be the weird one in the gray cloak, I guess. Riding Bela.





The "The Wheel of Time turns..." intro thing is different in this book. I don't remember if others read like this, but the wording is pretty different from what I recall.

When the wind traps Rand, is this just an early Bubble of Evil? Or do "strange things" really happen around the Blight? Or maybe a combination of the two, and small Bubbles are common closer to Shayol Ghul?

I forget of this is answered later on, but where did Moiraine go in the first chapter (outside of Fal Dara)?


"Time for a little balance work. Go through Parting the Silk, beginning from Heron Wading in the Rushes. Remember that that Heron form is only for practicing balance. Anywhere but doing forms, it leaves you wide open; you can strike home from it, if you wait for the other man to move first, but you'll never avoid his blade."
I tried to check if Heron Wading in the Rushes was used by Lan with Demandred, but it doesn't look like it. I thought, for some reason, that Rand used it to kill Turak, but I checked that too and it doesn't seem like it. Woulld've been a cool Karate Kid-esque moment, I guess.

Does the White Tower marching band appear again? Which side of the schism did they side with?

Why does Moiraine give Rand the cloak with LTT's dragon on it? He could've not noticed it and started walking around Fal Dara with it.

I know it's kind of a running joke in the series, but is there really no one out of all Shienar's soldiers who is strong enough to draw Rand's bow?

How does the Gray Man follow Rand around? It mentions that Rand closes the doors of the rooms behind him, so is it just sneaking by right in front of his face? In later encounters, Rand and Perrin seem to have little trouble seeing Gray Men (probably ta'veren stuff going on), so he should be able to see one slipping through a door he's closing.

Is Mat's dicing with the Shienaran "menials" the first time we see his luck?

Why doesn't Fain corrupt Moiraine, Egwene, or Nynaeve? They apparently spend a lot of time with him.

The Aiel crossing the Spine was a huge deal in the Aiel War, yet they apparently raid Shienar regularly, for some reason.

I didn't remember that Moiraine was a wilder.

And I also forgot that the Sea Folk AS are mentioned this early on.

At one point, Siuan says "The Great Hunt [was] called without any of us having a hint of it until the proclamation." I'm not sure if this is meant to be taken suspiciously or not. But did Ishamael call the Hunt so he could try to get the Horn away from the Light? If it was just Illian calling the Hunt because it felt "right" to do so at the time, you'd think they'd still have all kinds of events and ceremonies and stuff that the Amyrlim would have heard of. Though somehow Faile heard about it...

Thought this was cool foreshadowing (from Siuan):
"Tetsuan and Bonwhin were kept in the White Tower as servants. Scullery maids, who could be pointed to as cautions as to what can happen to the mightiest. No one can rally around a woman who must scrub floors and pots all day. Pity her, yes, but not rally to her."


Why do the AS in the Tower care what Moiraine is running around doing? Is it just because it's unusual behavior for an AS? But isn't running around in the "outside world" what Blues are supposed to be doing?

If nothing can break cuendillar, then how does anyone know that channeling at it makes it stronger? But assuming Moiraine believes this is true, shouldn't she channel everything she's got at it when she finds a Seal that's still intact?

How long have they been in Fal Dara now? Moiraine's taking a pretty big risk that Rand won't just run away and die under a bush somewhere.

Though I didn't really mind it, Fain's death and overall importance at the end are kind of anticlimactic considering Siuan says "the world would be doomed" if Mordeth ever escape from Shadar Logoth.

Terez
08-05-2014, 04:26 AM
Yeah, I just checked your interview database...
Good job.

When the wind traps Rand, is this just an early Bubble of Evil?
Yes, RJ said so.

I forget of this is answered later on, but where did Moiraine go in the first chapter (outside of Fal Dara)?
Not answered later on. Most theories center around her search for answers.

I tried to check if Heron Wading in the Rushes was used by Lan with Demandred, but it doesn't look like it. I thought, for some reason, that Rand used it to kill Turak, but I checked that too and it doesn't seem like it. Woulld've been a cool Karate Kid-esque moment, I guess.
He used it with Ishamael.

Does the White Tower marching band appear again? Which side of the schism did they side with?
Elaida sent them all to the dungeons.

I know it's kind of a running joke in the series, but is there really no one out of all Shienar's soldiers who is strong enough to draw Rand's bow?
Exaggeration is a hallmark of RJ's writing. He has a way of making it seem normal. Like one time when an Aes Sedai (Merana? I don't remember) literally falls out of her chair from shock. Not a very memorable scene for most readers.

How does the Gray Man follow Rand around? It mentions that Rand closes the doors of the rooms behind him, so is it just sneaking by right in front of his face? In later encounters, Rand and Perrin seem to have little trouble seeing Gray Men (probably ta'veren stuff going on), so he should be able to see one slipping through a door he's closing.
One could argue that their ta'verenness grew stronger and/or their paranoia grew sharper.

Is Mat's dicing with the Shienaran "menials" the first time we see his luck?
Yeah, sort of. It doesn't really kick in until Tar Valon. In the Two Rivers he got into some kind of trouble for owing money to a merchant's guard.

Why doesn't Fain corrupt Moiraine, Egwene, or Nynaeve? They apparently spend a lot of time with him.
Certain kinds of people are more susceptible. People who dream of glory and lack scruples, like Turak and Niall and Elaida, or any sort of Darkfriend.

The Aiel crossing the Spine was a huge deal in the Aiel War, yet they apparently raid Shienar regularly, for some reason.
For fun. Why else?

I didn't remember that Moiraine was a wilder.
Different Aes Sedai define it in different ways. Moiraine hadn't channeled enough before going to the Tower to develop a block, so most wouldn't consider her to be a wilder. She grew up around Aes Sedai and had an idea of what she was doing.

At one point, Siuan says "The Great Hunt [was] called without any of us having a hint of it until the proclamation." I'm not sure if this is meant to be taken suspiciously or not. But did Ishamael call the Hunt so he could try to get the Horn away from the Light? If it was just Illian calling the Hunt because it felt "right" to do so at the time, you'd think they'd still have all kinds of events and ceremonies and stuff that the Amyrlim would have heard of. Though somehow Faile heard about it...
The proclamation wasn't the same thing as the oathgiving ceremony. The news of the proclamation started going out just around the time they left the Two Rivers; people flocked to Illian to take the oaths, but at this point, if I recall, the Hunt hasn't yet set out officially. They don't start coming across Hunters until TDR, and they are near Illian then.

Why do the AS in the Tower care what Moiraine is running around doing? Is it just because it's unusual behavior for an AS? But isn't running around in the "outside world" what Blues are supposed to be doing?
Because they are trying to come up with reasons to get rid of Siuan. Remember, the angst in the Hall was being stirred up by Darkfriends.

If nothing can break cuendillar, then how does anyone know that channeling at it makes it stronger?
Presumably because those with the talent can sense the strength of the matrices.

But assuming Moiraine believes this is true, shouldn't she channel everything she's got at it when she finds a Seal that's still intact?
She knows something unnatural is weakening them, so best not to risk it.

How long have they been in Fal Dara now? Moiraine's taking a pretty big risk that Rand won't just run away and die under a bush somewhere.
http://www.stevenac.net/wot/wotchron.htm

Though I didn't really mind it, Fain's death and overall importance at the end are kind of anticlimactic considering Siuan says "the world would be doomed" if Mordeth ever escape from Shadar Logoth.
RJ said that the Aes Sedai overestimated how quickly the taint could be spread, but also, the escape of Mordeth was tempered by the strength and opposition of his host.

rand
08-06-2014, 12:40 AM
He used it with Ishamael.
Ah, ok. Not sure why I didn't remember that. I was pretty sure it was used somewhere though.





What's Fain's overall plan in this book? Does he just want to create chaos in Falme and then lure Rand there, in the off chance Rand gets killed there? Doesn't he want to kill Rand himself? I found it weird that he runs across half of Randland to use the Cairhien Waygate specifically. Is this just Fain's idea of getting revenge on Rand for being forced the chase Rand throughout book 1?

I know RJ said that Ingtar freed Fain. So does that mean he also knocked out Egwene and Mat? They both seem to have suffered memory loss from the attack, but you'd think Ingtar would be a little worried that they'd remember it was him who attacked them.

This is from a little earlier in the book, but what is Fain looking at through the dungeon walls? The dagger makes sense, and he can still sense the three boys, but Rand specifically notes that Fain's probably looking at the women's quarters. Is he sensing the Black Ajah members there? Can he somehow sense Moiraine and Siuan?

Who ordered all the doors of the keep closed earlier? It clearly wasn't Agelmar, and Lan's "troubled look" (or something like that) makes it seem like it wasn't Moiraine. So was it just Ingtar?

Who wrote the Dark Prophecy? Verin says it must have been a Fade or an "educated darkfriend," but knowing what we know about Verin now, does the educated DF refer to herself? I don't know if she necessarily wrote something on the walls in the dungeon, or just made up the whole thing to tell Siuan and Moiraine.

This might be explained in New Spring or somewhere else, but why do the Aiel attack Tar Valon in the Aiel War? Isn't their plan to kill Laman and leave, as quickly as possible? It seems like they could have easily snuck five Aiel into Cairhien overnight and assassinated him, rather than starting an entire war, let alone attacking a city a hundred miles away from where their target is.

When talking to Rand, Siuan says that people in Arad Doman believe the DO is dead. I don't remember this really being a thing later in the series with Domani characters, so I'm guessing RJ just dropped the idea.

When Ingtar and everyone finally leave Fal Dara, Hurin says the trail leads south. Everyone's surprised, but Ingtar says that Siuan suspected this would be the case. Why? How could Siuan possibly have predicted this?

The guys in Illian just want Domon Bayle's seal, right? Instead of concocting an elaborate ruse that involves paying Bayle to sail to Mayene, forging Galldrian's signature on a fake note, having Bayle's ship searched be random people who know nothing about the seal, and presumably following Bayle to Mayene so they can actually get the seal, couldn't they just...kill him and take the seal?

Weird Harold
08-06-2014, 01:55 AM
This might be explained in New Spring or somewhere else, but why do the Aiel attack Tar Valon in the Aiel War? Isn't their plan to kill Laman and leave, as quickly as possible? It seems like they could have easily snuck five Aiel into Cairhien overnight and assassinated him, rather than starting an entire war, let alone attacking a city a hundred miles away from where their target is.

IIRC, they attacked Tar Valon because that's where Laman and the wetlands armies retreated to.

rand
08-06-2014, 02:21 AM
IIRC, they attacked Tar Valon because that's where Laman and the wetlands armies retreated to.
All right, yeah. Forgot that Laman was over there. It stills seems odd that the Aiel would basically declare war on Cairhien when all they care about is killing Laman specifically.

GonzoTheGreat
08-06-2014, 04:09 AM
Who wrote the Dark Prophecy? Verin says it must have been a Fade or an "educated darkfriend," but knowing what we know about Verin now, does the educated DF refer to herself? I don't know if she necessarily wrote something on the walls in the dungeon, or just made up the whole thing to tell Siuan and Moiraine.Not all of it was made up, seeing as how Rand found writings there which he was erasing when Liandrin appeared.

This might be explained in New Spring or somewhere else, but why do the Aiel attack Tar Valon in the Aiel War? Isn't their plan to kill Laman and leave, as quickly as possible? It seems like they could have easily snuck five Aiel into Cairhien overnight and assassinated him, rather than starting an entire war, let alone attacking a city a hundred miles away from where their target is.For all we know, they had tried the "send a few to kill him" approach and failed. The Pattern wanted to get Rand born on Dragonmount, after all.
Then again, while Laman was the symbol they were after, it was not just him. A treaty had been made between all the Aiel on the one hand and the Cairhienin on the other, and the Cairhienin had broken the treaty. That meant war, and a good way of starting a war is to march an army into a country with the explicit goal of killing its king. And then you can end the war by actually doing that killing and leaving again.

When talking to Rand, Siuan says that people in Arad Doman believe the DO is dead. I don't remember this really being a thing later in the series with Domani characters, so I'm guessing RJ just dropped the idea.Or maybe the Domani did.

The guys in Illian just want Domon Bayle's seal, right? Instead of concocting an elaborate ruse that involves paying Bayle to sail to Mayene, forging Galldrian's signature on a fake note, having Bayle's ship searched be random people who know nothing about the seal, and presumably following Bayle to Mayene so they can actually get the seal, couldn't they just...kill him and take the seal?
Based on the fact that when they tried that, they failed, when they tried again they failed again and when they tried a third time, that too failed, I suspect that they thought that the answer was "no".

Marie Curie 7
08-06-2014, 12:12 PM
What's Fain's overall plan in this book? Does he just want to create chaos in Falme and then lure Rand there, in the off chance Rand gets killed there? Doesn't he want to kill Rand himself? I found it weird that he runs across half of Randland to use the Cairhien Waygate specifically. Is this just Fain's idea of getting revenge on Rand for being forced the chase Rand throughout book 1?

He used the Cairhien Waygate because he knew where it was located:

Interview: Jul 19th, 2005
TOR Questions of the Week Part III (http://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=7#10)

Week 10 Question
In The Great Hunt, who wrote the Dark Prophecy on the dungeon wall in Fal Dara? And why, after Ingtar released Padan Fain from the dungeon, did Fain decide to go to Toman Head? We know he was rebelling against Ishamael's orders (he was supposed to follow the Myrddraal to Shayol Ghul) but why did Fain go to Cairhien and then to Toman Head?

Robert Jordan
A Myrddraal wrote the Dark Prophecy on orders, as a threat. I might want to use some of the reasons, so the rest on that is RAFO.

Fain (now amalgamated with Mordeth) was seeking his own power base, something he would try again with Pedron Niall and Toram Riatin. He wanted enough power to be able to kill Rand, Mat and Perrin, though most especially Rand, and to protect himself against agents of the Shadow. Because of Darkfriend reports, the Myrddraal who wrote the prophecy already knew who the strangers on Toman Head were, or claimed to be: Artur Hawkwing's armies returned to reclaim the lands stolen from Hawkwing's heirs. He knew that they collared women who could channel, which appealed to Fain/Mordeth, since one disliked Aes Sedai at best and the other purely hated them. The Myrddraal didn't simply give this up to Fain, you understand. Fain is one of the few people who could successfully torture information out of one of the Eyeless. As for why he went to Cairhien first, he knew the location of the Waygate there (along with several others and how to read the guidings in the Ways, this last from Mordeth) and preferred to use the Ways rather than make the longer cross-country journey from Fal Dara to Toman Head.


Who wrote the Dark Prophecy? Verin says it must have been a Fade or an "educated darkfriend," but knowing what we know about Verin now, does the educated DF refer to herself? I don't know if she necessarily wrote something on the walls in the dungeon, or just made up the whole thing to tell Siuan and Moiraine.

See above. It was a Myrddraal.

rand
08-06-2014, 02:05 PM
Thanks for the quote, Marie. I'd think it would be easier for Fain and his small army of Trollocs to simply break through into the Fal Dara Waygate, but maybe he didn't have enough influence over the Fade so soon after escaping.



Not all of it was made up, seeing as how Rand found writings there which he was erasing when Liandrin appeared.
It's still possible that Verin purposely told Siuan and Moiraine something completely different from what was written on the walls, I guess.

rand
08-07-2014, 01:03 AM
I know the weird repeating room with the flies thing in the village is Fain's work. And the ghosts of the two dead renegade Asha'man later in Far Madding are too, right? Assuming Fain is the one who impersonated Sammael in KoD, was that basically the same kind of illusion? Does Fain have the power to make illusions only of people he's actually killed (assuming Mashadar killing Sammael equals that)?

The Darkfriends with Fain don't seem to be from Fal Dara. We're they dropped off there after the DF Social?

Maybe this is answered later, but why can't certain people open the box the Horn is in? Moiraine, Siuan, Lanfear, and Turak are able to, but Fain can't despite presumably a lot of effort.

Fain says he can't sense Rand when Rand's doing his "vanishing trick." Does this just mean when he's in the void/holding the OP?

FWIW, Egwene and Nynaeve and all of them must pass by the Field of Merrilor on their way to Tar Valon.

Did Rand actually send everyone to the mirror world accidentally in his sleep, or did Lanfear do it? Rand's own PoV makes it seem like it was him, but Egwene's dream shows Lanfear standing over Rand while he sleeps before there's a flash of light and they're all gone. If Lanfear got them there in the first place, is she also responsible for getting them back? She knows Rand has no clue what he's doing at this point. And Rand's later attempt at using a Portal Stone to go to Toman's Head isn't exactly an enormous success.

What happened when Rand's void "shatters" in the mirror world? He seems to feel the Taint for the first time. I know there's been discussion about this, but I couldn't remember what it was exactly...

Do we have any idea what happened in this mirror world? Assuming the Trollocs won and then killed everything (including themselves), where did all the weird Seanchan things come from? Are they just mutant creatures that escaped whatever happened? Were they mutated by whatever burned the trees and created the smoke lines in the sky?

How does Lanfear know all about the Seanchan creatures? Did she visit Toman's Head or Seanchan before seeking out Rand?

When Ishamael appears to Rand (right before he gets his first brand), Ishamael says he knows that Moiraine told him he's the DR. Is this something Verin would have told him? I don't think anyone else knew aside from her, Siuan, Moiraine, and Rand himself.

When they finally recover the Horn and dagger, Rand explains about Mat's need for the dagger, and Loial says something like "Ah, so that's what was wrong with him!" But Loial should have known all that already, as he was there when Moiraine explained everything in Caemlyn.

GonzoTheGreat
08-07-2014, 02:35 AM
There's a trick to opening the chest, and if you don't know the trick, then discovering it is not easy.

I think that Lanfear brought them there, and Rand brought them back. The reason why Rand's second attempt is "differently successful" is that he is then also using the "travel between worlds" method, which is not quite the same as the "travel within a world" one, and it is the latter he should have used.

I think that Lanfear brought those Grolm there. I also think that the huge packs they heard at the end were not real; they were just sound effects produced by Lanfear to spur them on. I admit that I do not have actual evidence for this, and I can't remember having convinced anyone else that it is correct. So other explanations are also proposed.

Loial may not have known that the dagger was missing, and he may have thought that Moiraine had cured Mat by that time, possibly with the help of other AS.

Terez
08-07-2014, 02:45 AM
I know the weird repeating room with the flies thing in the village is Fain's work.
Retrospectively. There's a spiel in the notes about how and why Lanfear did it, but RJ said on tour that it was Fain.

And the ghosts of the two dead renegade Asha'man later in Far Madding are too, right? Assuming Fain is the one who impersonated Sammael in KoD, was that basically the same kind of illusion? Does Fain have the power to make illusions only of people he's actually killed (assuming Mashadar killing Sammael equals that)?
That is my guess. I don't know if the fly trap is the same logic, but I always used the Far Madding incident to explain Sammael. The theory was that Mashadar was a part of Fain/Mordeth, which made its way into the books, whether by RJ's decision or Brandon's, I don't know.

The Darkfriends with Fain don't seem to be from Fal Dara. We're they dropped off there after the DF Social?
Not clear. He picked up more along the way, though.

Maybe this is answered later, but why can't certain people open the box the Horn is in? Moiraine, Siuan, Lanfear, and Turak are able to, but Fain can't despite presumably a lot of effort.
Like Gonzo said, Fain just didn't know the trick of opening them.

Fain says he can't sense Rand when Rand's doing his "vanishing trick." Does this just mean when he's in the void/holding the OP?
Yes. (The void.)

FWIW, Egwene and Nynaeve and all of them must pass by the Field of Merrilor on their way to Tar Valon.
Brandon was never very clear about where it was. There were two contradicting descriptions in the book - just north of Tar Valon, and near the border with Shienar. It can't be both, unless mapscale is really not your strong suit.

Did Rand actually send everyone to the mirror world accidentally in his sleep, or did Lanfear do it? Rand's own PoV makes it seem like it was him, but Egwene's dream shows Lanfear standing over Rand while he sleeps before there's a flash of light and they're all gone. If Lanfear got them there in the first place, is she also responsible for getting them back?
The first time was probably Lanfear, the second time was probably Rand, judging by her reaction. She's just trying to make him use the Power (same reason why she set the fly trap, that is before it was Fain).

What happened when Rand's void "shatters" in the mirror world? He seems to feel the Taint for the first time. I know there's been discussion about this, but I couldn't remember what it was exactly...
He just loses control. He's working without a teacher. Also, he didn't feel the taint at the Eye because he was using untainted saidin.

Do we have any idea what happened in this mirror world? Assuming the Trollocs won and then killed everything (including themselves), where did all the weird Seanchan things come from? Are they just mutant creatures that escaped whatever happened? Were they mutated by whatever burned the trees and created the smoke lines in the sky?
The creatures came from other worlds in the first place.

How does Lanfear know all about the Seanchan creatures? Did she visit Toman's Head or Seanchan before seeking out Rand?
She probably knows about them from the Age of Legends, and it might have actually been easier for her to go to the original source than to hunt anything out in Randland.

When Ishamael appears to Rand (right before he gets his first brand), Ishamael says he knows that Moiraine told him he's the DR. Is this something Verin would have told him?
Probably, but I wouldn't say that was his only option.

Tollingtoy
08-07-2014, 08:17 AM
So, any idea what the reasons were why the Fade wrote the Dark Prophecy there that RJ wanted to RAFO?

Tollingtoy
08-07-2014, 08:21 AM
Assuming Fain is the one who impersonated Sammael in KoD,



Has this been conclusively proven? I always thought Moghedien basically admitted to it in AMOL when she talked about impersonating other Chosen?

rand
08-07-2014, 12:33 PM
I think that Lanfear brought those Grolm there. I also think that the huge packs they heard at the end were not real; they were just sound effects produced by Lanfear to spur them on. I admit that I do not have actual evidence for this, and I can't remember having convinced anyone else that it is correct. So other explanations are also proposed.
I was kind of thinking along those lines as well. For some reason I thought the grolm were stated to be native to this world somewhere (the BWB maybe?), but it could just be mirror worlds in general that they're from.

Brandon was never very clear about where it was. There were two contradicting descriptions in the book - just north of Tar Valon, and near the border with Shienar. It can't be both, unless mapscale is really not your strong suit.
I forgot it was mentioned as being north of Tar Valon. I was going by the map in aMoL, which shows it to be at the meeting of the Mora and Erinin Rivers, the southwest corner of Shienar.

Has this been conclusively proven? I always thought Moghedien basically admitted to it in AMOL when she talked about impersonating other Chosen?
I have no idea, really. I think that "Fain sent the Trollocs" was the most popular theory at one point. Not sure if that changed after aMoL.

Terez
08-07-2014, 01:40 PM
Ah yes, the map. In TOM Rand said it was "just" north of Tar Valon. In any case, it was apparently invented by Team Jordan. RJ wanted the battle to take place at Caemlyn.

rand
08-07-2014, 02:04 PM
RJ wanted the battle to take place at Caemlyn.
So they basically said, "Screw that, let's have the battle take place somewhere no one's heard of and no one cares about"? :confused:

Terez
08-07-2014, 07:22 PM
I think it was a problem of logistics.

rand
08-08-2014, 01:45 AM
Do Draghkar destroy souls permanently, so you can't be reborn ever again? If not, what's the point of sucking out the souls? Unless someone happens to interrupt the soul sucking process, the Draghkar just kills you, in which case you probably wouldn't care if you still had a soul or not.

After the Draghkar is killed, Moiraine says she discovered the answer to a question she didn't know she had. What is it? I checked EWOT, but they seem to think it's that Fain=Mordeth. But Moiraine was clearly searching for something along those lines, both through books and questioning Vandene, so that doesn't make sense. Is it something to do with Liandrin, or the Black Ajah in general?

During Nynaeve's Accepted Test, we get what I think is the first mention of there being a Gray Ajah, outside of the glossary. It still isn't mentioned what their specific function is, though. Just thought this was kind of weird.




Ok, here's a mini-theory I thought of. I remember RJ said somewhere that Nynaeve's ability to channel in the Accepted ter'angreal was significant. After she gets out the first time she tells Sheriam she channeled inside, and Sheriam kind of freaks out. We get a brief history, which says that the first few AS to use the ter'angreal went in with various OP wards and came back burned out. Whatever really happened, the AS logically assume that entering the ter'angreal with OP wards will probably kill you.

Well anyway, since we now know that Sheriam was Black...did she put inverted wards around Nynaeve before they got in the testing room, hoping that Nynaeve would be killed? I don't remember if the AS knew about inverting, but a Forsaken could have shown her how.




A few more things about Nynaeve's test:

Why can she seemingly remember everything from the real world in the third test, but not in the other two?

How does she make the arch come back?

How does the ter'angreal work? Sheriam mentions mirror worlds. Does it just temporarily put you into a mirror world version of yourself (ie, Nynaeve is actually doing all these things in various mirror worlds)? This makes sense for the second and third test. The first one seems a little weird to be an alternate life for Nynaeve (getting chased through the maze by Aginor), but she can apparently sense saidin here, so maybe this particular mirror world is different enough that somehow she is being chased for possibly being the DR?

Whatever the case, I'm guessing the testing ter'angreal was originally intended to study mirror worlds.




Does Min's viewing of a severed hand for Elayne ever happen? Was it supposed to be connected to Rand's bloody hand and red (white?) hot iron?

Weird Harold
08-08-2014, 01:56 AM
Does Min's viewing of a severed hand for Elayne ever happen?

Elayne's adoption of the Band of the Red Hand and their artillery fits that viewing. The BotRH was severed from Rand's or anyone else's service at that point.

GonzoTheGreat
08-08-2014, 03:52 AM
After the Draghkar is killed, Moiraine says she discovered the answer to a question she didn't know she had. What is it? I checked EWOT, but they seem to think it's that Fain=Mordeth. But Moiraine was clearly searching for something along those lines, both through books and questioning Vandene, so that doesn't make sense. Is it something to do with Liandrin, or the Black Ajah in general?
Sort of. It is that the BA knows enough to target Moiraine specifically, which in turn means that they almost certainly also know to go after Rand. And that they had managed to track Moiraine to the two sisters, while she hadn't told anyone where she was going.

Tomp
08-08-2014, 07:26 AM
The long winter was the first sign of the weakening seal on the Dark One's prison. They were feeling their oats, or Ishamael was, and the Dragon Reborn had yet to appear. It was as good a time to attack as any.




Yeah they need a lot of fibre before the attack. :p


:eek:
*Ducking, heading for cover*

Terez
08-08-2014, 06:26 PM
After the Draghkar is killed, Moiraine says she discovered the answer to a question she didn't know she had. What is it? I checked EWOT, but they seem to think it's that Fain=Mordeth. But Moiraine was clearly searching for something along those lines, both through books and questioning Vandene, so that doesn't make sense. Is it something to do with Liandrin, or the Black Ajah in general?
Fain=Mordeth is the only thing that makes sense. The thing Vandene said in passing is that Mordeth was waiting for a soul to steal. Moiraine hadn't considered that possibility before then. It was what Fain managed to hold back when she questioned him in Fal Dara.

GonzoTheGreat
08-09-2014, 02:15 AM
A problem with that theory is that it is directly contradicted by Moiraine herself:
"Mordeth alone was not consumed by Mashadar, but he was snared by it, and he, too, has waited within these walls through the long centuries. Others have seen him. Some he has influenced through gifts that twist the mind and taint the spirit, the taint waxing and waning until it rules ... or kills. If ever he convinces someone to accompany him to the walls, to the boundary of Mashadar's power, he will be able to consume the soul of that person. Mordeth will leave, wearing the body of the one he worse than killed, to wreak his evil on the world again."
I have a question on the English language now: what does the title of that chapter mean?

Two options:
"The waiting of the Shadow."
"The Shadow is waiting."

Terez
08-09-2014, 09:24 AM
The first. The second requires "the".

Terez
08-09-2014, 10:39 PM
Oh, and on the beginning of your post, which I just now noticed, it was Fain=Mordeth she hadn't considered. Vandene just reminded her of the legend of Mordeth at an opportune time.

rand
08-09-2014, 11:42 PM
When Ingtar and co. meet Urien, he says Verin's agelessness reminds him of the Wise Ones. Is this just a mistake? WOs don't get that without the Oath Rod, right?

This is possibly just coincidence, but since Galldrian's symbol is a stag, does the Stag and Lion in Baerlon refer to Cairhien and Andor?

How did Fain get the Trollocs into Cairhien and all the way to Barthanes' house without anyone seeing them? In the back of a cart or something?

A question about Perrin's eyes...Moiraine seems to know what's up right away after rescuing him in tEotW, and Elyas and his condition seem fairly well-known. So do most AS know that yellow eyes means a wolfbrother? Is it probably safe to assume that Verin, at least, knows?

When talking about the Choedan Kal, Verin says one channeler alone couldn't use one to Break the World again. How does she know this? It's false, apparently, as Rand seems pretty capable of blowing up the world at the end of tGS.

A few sentences later Verin also says that Logain isn't strong enough to channel the Choedan Kal. Regardless of whether or not this is true (he's pretty strong, right?), how would Verin have any way of knowing Logain's strength in the OP?

The Waygate leaf works differently in this book (and maybe the others after, I'm not sure). In tEotW, Moiraine has to pull the leaf off and stick it somewhere else. But now all Rand does is take the leaf and the gates start to open.

Why can the Black Wind escape now when it seemingly couldn't in tEotW?

I guess it's just Rand being a ta'veren, but it's a little odd that Barthanes more or less admits that he's a DF when giving Rand Fain's message.

Everyone's shocked that Fain can somehow control the Black Wind, despite the fact that Moiraine told them this in tEotW. Or they knew the Black Wind feared him, at least.

Did Galldrian really try to kill Thom? And with a guy that everyone apparently knows (for some reason) is Galldrian's assassin. I know there's the Great Game and all that, but it seems a bit odd. I guess my point is, did someone try to trick Thom into assassinating Galldrian? Maybe Verin wanted to create chaos in the DR's wake? Maybe Toram Riatin was around and wanted to off his brother (father? cousin? uncle?). Or maybe the innkeeper Zera lied about the whole thing because she doesn't like the king...

I don't remember if this is answered later, but what happens to the DFs and Trollocs Fain brings with him to Toman Head? It seems like he plans on having them attack Falme and making it seem like Rand's doing, but when Rand doesn't show up... Where do they go?

If Fain had the Black Wind blocking the Waygates, how did expect Rand to follow him? Did he see the Portal Stone in Kinslayer's Dagger and assume Rand must have used it to get ahead of him?

Why does Turak believe in Trollocs when Tuon and everyone else from Seanchan doesn't?




And finally...who killed Barthanes? Was it really just the gholam, as everyone seems to assume? My thought was that it could have been Fain:

1) Barthanes is said to have been "torn to pieces," not ripped limb from limb. There might not be a huge distinction between the two, but:

2) From what Zera describes, the attack is similar to what Fain had the Trollocs do to the villagers back in chapter 11. He has the Trollocs eat everyone and leave whatever's left in a pile with the heads placed "neatly" on top. And Barthanes' head was on a spike over the fireplace (because everyone has a spike for severed heads on their mantle...).

3) When Rand, Hurin, and Loial are climbing back out of the fenced-in Waygate area, this happens:
tGH 33
Rand landed on his feet with a thud, listening and peering into the night. For a moment he thought he saw something move, heard a boot scrape on the brick wall, but neither was repeated, and he dismissed it as nervousness. He thought that he had a right to be nervous. He turned to help Hurin down.


My overall thought was that Fain left a Trolloc or two behind to kill Barthanes (not sure why--maybe because he's a DF, and seemingly living the easy life in a manor house instead of being turned into a hound like Fain). Obviously there are problems with this idea, such as Trollocs being somewhat poor stealthy assassins. Also, Hurin would have probably sniffed them. But it's a decent alternative to the "the gholam did it" theory.


Also, assuming Rand wasn't hearing Trollocs hiding in the gardens behind Barthanes' house, who or what did he hear hiding back there?

Terez
08-10-2014, 12:54 AM
When Ingtar and co. meet Urien, he says Verin's agelessness reminds him of the Wise Ones. Is this just a mistake? WOs don't get that without the Oath Rod, right?
People have attempted to explain this outside of it being a TGHism, but not convincingly IMO.

This is possibly just coincidence, but since Galldrian's symbol is a stag, does the Stag and Lion in Baerlon refer to Cairhien and Andor?
It symbolizes the marriage of Robert and Cersei.

How did Fain get the Trollocs into Cairhien and all the way to Barthanes' house without anyone seeing them? In the back of a cart or something?
As I mentioned before, Loial said the area was wooded before Barthanes's manor was built; there's probably not much around the area.

A question about Perrin's eyes...Moiraine seems to know what's up right away after rescuing him in tEotW, and Elyas and his condition seem fairly well-known. So do most AS know that yellow eyes means a wolfbrother? Is it probably safe to assume that Verin, at least, knows?
It might not be the commonest knowledge, but yes.

When talking about the Choedan Kal, Verin says one channeler alone couldn't use one to Break the World again. How does she know this? It's false, apparently, as Rand seems pretty capable of blowing up the world at the end of tGS.
RJ has said repeatedly that Aes Sedai are not always right, and they believe a lot of things that aren't true. I believe this specific example has been addressed in the metacanon.

A few sentences later Verin also says that Logain isn't strong enough to channel the Choedan Kal. Regardless of whether or not this is true (he's pretty strong, right?), how would Verin have any way of knowing Logain's strength in the OP?
At this point she could know, in a general way, by way of the sisters who held his shield.

The Waygate leaf works differently in this book (and maybe the others after, I'm not sure). In tEotW, Moiraine has to pull the leaf off and stick it somewhere else. But now all Rand does is take the leaf and the gates start to open.
Machin Shin was happy to see him.

Why can the Black Wind escape now when it seemingly couldn't in tEotW?
It might not exactly be able to. Maybe it can only push the boundaries a bit. And since it got to know Fain, it absorbed Fain's compulsion to kill Rand, so maybe it's simply never been so compelled to try to get out before.

Everyone's shocked that Fain can somehow control the Black Wind, despite the fact that Moiraine told them this in tEotW. Or they knew the Black Wind feared him, at least.
Big difference there.

Did Galldrian really try to kill Thom? And with a guy that everyone apparently knows (for some reason) is Galldrian's assassin. I know there's the Great Game and all that, but it seems a bit odd. I guess my point is, did someone try to trick Thom into assassinating Galldrian? Maybe Verin wanted to create chaos in the DR's wake? Maybe Toram Riatin was around and wanted to off his brother (father? cousin? uncle?). Or maybe the innkeeper Zera lied about the whole thing because she doesn't like the king...
It was probably a great surprise to them that they weren't successful. I don't find it all that hard to believe that Galldrian wanted him killed.

If Fain had the Black Wind blocking the Waygates, how did expect Rand to follow him?
See above. I don't think he necessarily gave it orders. That said, he's never been a very consistent person. We know he had an obsession with killing Rand personally, yet he sent his turned Whitecloaks to kill him in LOC. And thought to himself that he would have been angry if they had been successful.

Why does Turak believe in Trollocs when Tuon and everyone else from Seanchan doesn't?
1) He had probably already heard tell of them from other Randlanders, and 2) he didn't necessarily believe. "I will have watch kept for your Trollocs and your Darkfriends, if they are not another lie."

And finally...who killed Barthanes? Was it really just the gholam, as everyone seems to assume?
If so, it's a retcon explanation since I'm pretty sure RJ didn't come up with the gholam until LOC. Fain was always the obvious answer; the gholam theory was the search for another explanation.

Also, assuming Rand wasn't hearing Trollocs hiding in the gardens behind Barthanes' house, who or what did he hear hiding back there?
Perhaps a guard with orders to watch.

GonzoTheGreat
08-10-2014, 03:57 AM
When Ingtar and co. meet Urien, he says Verin's agelessness reminds him of the Wise Ones. Is this just a mistake? WOs don't get that without the Oath Rod, right?WOs who can channel live a lot longer than other Aiel, if they're not killed by one of the natural dangers of the Waste. Thus, a WO who looks as if she is 40 may indeed be 40, or she may be 140 (or even 240). Since the ordinary Aiel don't know which WOs can or can't channel, the only thing they do know about it is that you can't judge a WO's age based upon her looks.
Verin has the agelessness, which is a more obvious version of "you can't tell how old she is". So it reminds him of the WOs, but is also clearly not the same.

Everyone's shocked that Fain can somehow control the Black Wind, despite the fact that Moiraine told them this in tEotW. Or they knew the Black Wind feared him, at least.
There is another implication of this, which has not really been touched upon, yet: that the BW is intelligent.
If I encounter a sparrow in a forest, then the sparrow would probably be somewhat afraid of me. But I could not use that fear to make it do things while I was away, because it would not understand my threats. The fact that the BW can be compelled in such a way shows that it is intelligent enough to be reasoned with, which means that it is a much more dangerous entity than it would have been if it had been a mindless horror.

rand
08-11-2014, 12:51 AM
If so, it's a retcon explanation since I'm pretty sure RJ didn't come up with the gholam until LOC. Fain was always the obvious answer; the gholam theory was the search for another explanation.
Really? You mean I'm actually right about this? Awesome. Seriously though, I thought everyone just assumed it was the gholam...





The three Aiel Maidens in Tsofu are looking for Rand, right? Well, why don't they mention this when they see a guy "born of the Waste but raised in Randland" or whatever the prophecy was?

I brought up in the last post that the Black Wind could exit the Waygate in Cairhien while it couldn't back in Fal Dara. When Verin opens the one outside Tsofu, it doesn't appear to seep out this time either. Maybe it has to be Rand specifically who opens the Waygate for the BW to actually come out?

Can Fain still sense Mat and Perrin, or is it just Rand now? If he can still sense the others, why doesn't the Black Wind block Perrin from the Ways in tSR?

Verin seems to know a lot about Portal Stones. Is this just because she's Brown? And knowing about them is one thing, but how would she know about the one in the Waste (presumably the one outside Rhuidean)?

Verin also mentions that the Portal Stone on Toman Head is the only one she's visited (or the only one whose symbol she knows that she's also visited, at least). Is this significant? She mentions having trudged through the cold and snow of the Mountains of Mist and Almoth Plain to get there. Did she just randomly decide to go during the worst time possible several decades back? Or had she just visited it during the long winter we see in tEotW?

Ingtar seems very reluctant to go to Toman Head. Was he told to keep Rand away from there (and the Seanchan)? I'm guessing Ishamael would know about the prophecy saying Rand will proclaim himself there.

I find it funny that Verin bullies Rand into using the Portal Stone despite his protests of having no clue what he's doing, then she gets mad at him when he messes up.

Also (and I know I'm kind saying "Verin must have done it!" for everything, but whatever), is it possible Verin interfered with the Portal Stone, assuming she saw some sort of benefit in having it take them months to reach Toman Head?

When they're in the Ways, Egwene says that Moiraine mentioned the Black Wind can't be killed and only barely hurt. To which Liandrin replies, "If the Black Wind appears, I will deal with it. [...] Moiraine does not know as much as she thinks." Is she simply boasting, or lying since she's BA? Or does she really know how to harm or potentially kill the BW?

I know they mumble about it being "above" them, but do Renna and Alwhin and all of them seriously have no idea that Suroth is probably a DF for dealing with a marath'damane due to an even greater deal with a feared "master?" They overhear the whole conversation, including Liandrin telling Suroth to kill Seanchan patrols if necessary. I guess this stuff is kind of normal in the Seanchan culture, but still...

I forgot that a'dam are apparently still being created.

GonzoTheGreat
08-11-2014, 03:25 AM
The three Aiel Maidens in Tsofu are looking for Rand, right? Well, why don't they mention this when they see a guy "born of the Waste but raised in Randland" or whatever the prophecy was?They see a Wetlander, not an Aiel. The sword probably didn't help, but the clothing was most likely enough to throw them off.

Can Fain still sense Mat and Perrin, or is it just Rand now? If he can still sense the others, why doesn't the Black Wind block Perrin from the Ways in tSR?Fain can still sense them, but he doesn't think of them all that much; he is almost completely focused on Rand. So that's all he thought of mentioning to the BW.

Verin seems to know a lot about Portal Stones. Is this just because she's Brown? And knowing about them is one thing, but how would she know about the one in the Waste (presumably the one outside Rhuidean)?The BA may have been mapping the Portal Stones in preparation for the Day of Return, and if so, Verin would've investigated this.

Verin also mentions that the Portal Stone on Toman Head is the only one she's visited (or the only one whose symbol she knows that she's also visited, at least). Is this significant? She mentions having trudged through the cold and snow of the Mountains of Mist and Almoth Plain to get there. Did she just randomly decide to go during the worst time possible several decades back? Or had she just visited it during the long winter we see in tEotW?I don't know when she had visited it. I do think the Pattern had tricked her into acquiring this knowledge.

Also (and I know I'm kind saying "Verin must have done it!" for everything, but whatever), is it possible Verin interfered with the Portal Stone, assuming she saw some sort of benefit in having it take them months to reach Toman Head?I seriously doubt Verin had that much experience with Portal Stones, especially ones operated by male channelers.

When they're in the Ways, Egwene says that Moiraine mentioned the Black Wind can't be killed and only barely hurt. To which Liandrin replies, "If the Black Wind appears, I will deal with it. [...] Moiraine does not know as much as she thinks." Is she simply boasting, or lying since she's BA? Or does she really know how to harm or potentially kill the BW?Liandrin may have planned to use the OP to tie them up and run away herself. That'd distract the BW a bit and let her get rid of the girls at the same time. Or perhaps there's some other explanation.

Terez
08-11-2014, 10:25 AM
Really? You mean I'm actually right about this?
Well, assuming that the obvious answer is the correct one.

The three Aiel Maidens in Tsofu are looking for Rand, right? Well, why don't they mention this when they see a guy "born of the Waste but raised in Randland" or whatever the prophecy was?
They might not have actually been looking for Rand. Only some Aiel were sent to search for him, and Tsofu is close enough to the Waste that Aiel do come there fairly regularly looking for sung wood. Aside from that, the regular folk haven't all wrapped their heads around the prophecy like the clan chiefs and Wise Ones have, which is why Couladin was able to get away with pretending to be the Car'a'carn. These Maidens were distressed that he was wearing a sword, so they obviously had some notion that he was Aiel, but they might not have wanted to believe that he was the one.

Can Fain still sense Mat and Perrin, or is it just Rand now? If he can still sense the others, why doesn't the Black Wind block Perrin from the Ways in tSR?
Because it absorbed Fain's compulsions, and the main one is Rand. Fain says he can sense Perrin in the Two Rivers. He doesn't know whether it's Mat or Perrin; he only knows it's not Rand.

Verin seems to know a lot about Portal Stones. Is this just because she's Brown? And knowing about them is one thing, but how would she know about the one in the Waste (presumably the one outside Rhuidean)?
I think she explains all of that; she doesn't actually know a whole lot about them, but she studied them. She probably read about the Stone at Chaendar in the same book where Rand read about it.

Davian93
08-11-2014, 11:54 AM
Brandon was never very clear about where it was. There were two contradicting descriptions in the book - just north of Tar Valon, and near the border with Shienar. It can't be both, unless mapscale is really not your strong suit.

Its a fairly obvious mistake by Team Jordan too...given that the Amyrlin's ships had no issue traveling through that spot but we later learn that its a common fording spot...thus, it wouldn't be navigable for river ships that size.

Oopsy.

rand
08-12-2014, 12:34 AM
Its a fairly obvious mistake by Team Jordan too...given that the Amyrlin's ships had no issue traveling through that spot but we later learn that its a common fording spot...thus, it wouldn't be navigable for river ships that size.

Oopsy.
Maybe it's like the Eye of the World and it moves around sometimes.

rand
08-12-2014, 01:28 AM
Finished tGH. Yay.



When Ishamael appears in Rand's hotel room on Toman Head, is it real or a dream? The Dragon Banner remaining seemingly untouched makes it seem like a dream, but the chair is still burned from where Ishamael touched it. But if it was real, how did Ishamael get the Banner back in the saddlebag so quickly--literally in the blink of an eye?

I guess Min being forced to wear Seanchan clothes is foreshadowing of her eventual role with them in aMoL (sort of, I guess, maybe).

Min has a viewing that links Egwene with Galad. What is it? I'm probably forgetting something, but do they even really see each other again beyond a few times back in Tar Valon?

Min also sees a red-hot iron and an axe for Elayne, both apparently distant in the future. I guess the axe could be her confrontation with Perrin (though he doesn't have the axe anymore then, right?). Is the red-hot iron just the dildo ter'angreal she finds, or something else?

I'm probably over thinking this, but when Perrin, Mat, and Hurin are scouting the village where the WCs eventually show up, they leave heading west, implying that Ingtar's camp is west of that village. But when they get there, they say they followed Fain's trail almost all the way to Falme. And since Falme is the westernmost point of Toman Head, they would have had to ride by Ingtar's camp to get there.

Why does Verin tell Rand that the damane can sense his channeling? Is she just being super cautious incase the Seanchan have ter'angreal that can detect saidin, or does Verin know that channeling would attract Ishamael or something?

Are the Dragon soul and Ishamael soul just naturally good swordsmen? I know Rand practices a lot, but Lan says it would take 5 years at least to become a blademaster. Granted, Rand kind of cheats with the void, but he still seems better than he should. And Ishamael's a philosopher. Why would he know or care how to use a sword?

When trying to free Egwene, Nynaeve doesn't want to have Min play a sul'dam or damane because there's a slight chance someone might recognize her. But then she decides to use Seta, who has almost a 100% chance of being recognized.


tGH 45
Bayle Domon watched the rising sun from the deck of his ship. The docks were already beginning to bustle, though the streets leading up from the harbor stood largely empty. A gull perched on a piling stared at him; gulls had pitiless eyes.

Are seagulls the DO's eyes?

Fain gets what he wants from all this--chaos--right? Why does he just flee Falme without any attempt at killing Rand whatsoever?

I always felt one of the funnier scenes in the series is when Mat casually tosses the Horn of Valere over a wall before climbing over after it. And Ingtar's stunned look.

Artur Hawkwing says, "We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon." Does this imply that the HotH will only follow the Dragon, even if a DF had blown the Horn? Or is it only because Rand is right there that they have to follow him?

A lot of stuff confuses me about the battle at Falme. It's like RJ asked a high Steven Erikson to write it for him. Is there any actual reason why blowing the Horn transports everyone around it into another plane of existence or...something? How do Rand and Ishamael appear in the sky? Are they really there, or is just a projection, or...is it all just "magic?"

Also, why are the Heroes tied to Rand's success or failure? If he tripped and fell right away, the HotH would have turned into incompetent morons that had their asses kicked by the Seanchan?

And...why does Ishamael have a sword fight with Rand? Why not just use the OP or TP?

Does the sword form "The Kingfisher Takes a Silverback" refer to a bird attacking a gorilla?

How does Ishamael know about Egwene and Nynaeve's importance to Rand? Just from spying on him enough?

When Ishamael stabs Rand in the side, is he actually trying to kill Rand? You'd think he could have done a better job if so...

Not that I doubt Min, but... how does she drag 250+ pounds of dead weight across a garden, up a set of stairs, down a hallway, across a bedroom, and onto a bed? And "with only a little hard breathing" too.

When Moiraine finally appears right before the credits roll, she says "I have been doing what I could, here on Toman Head and in Falme." She mentions trying to save the two AS damane, and I guess she found the two Seals. But what did she do on Toman Head?

Moiraine also says this is the first time the Black Ajah has revealed itself in 2000 years, apparently forgetting her own battle with the BA 20 years earlier.

Why is the word "kith" in the glossary? I mean, it's a real word...

I also skimmed a few pronunciations in the glossary. Did RJ just make these up as he went, with no rhyme or reason? Fain, Dain, and Taim are all pronounced completely differently. I know they're from different nations, but still...


Oh and one random thing I thought of. LTT is said to have killed "every living person who carried any of his blood, as well as everyone he loved." Did his weave search these people out all across the world to kill them? Or did they all happen to be at a barbecue at his house when he snapped and killed them all?

Terez
08-12-2014, 02:52 AM
When Ishamael appears in Rand's hotel room on Toman Head, is it real or a dream?
I asked Brandon about that. (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=605#27)

I guess Min being forced to wear Seanchan clothes is foreshadowing of her eventual role with them in aMoL (sort of, I guess, maybe).
Dom and I discussed this before the book actually came out, when no one else had read it and we only had each other to discuss it with. It's actually one of a long string of possible foreshadowings, most of which were noticed by Dom. I think this is the only one I pointed out to him; she's even wearing the same color as she wore later (dark green).

Min has a viewing that links Egwene with Galad. What is it? I'm probably forgetting something, but do they even really see each other again beyond a few times back in Tar Valon?
I am convinced that RJ originally (perhaps always) intended Egwene and Galad to marry after Gawyn died. There's a nice foreshadowing-that-wasn't-a-foreshadowing in TDR.

Why does Verin tell Rand that the damane can sense his channeling? Is she just being super cautious incase the Seanchan have ter'angreal that can detect saidin, or does Verin know that channeling would attract Ishamael or something?
She knew they couldn't sense him; RJ mentioned this in his TGH continuity notes. I don't recall RJ going into much detail, but I'm sure she considered Ishamael.

Are the Dragon soul and Ishamael soul just naturally good swordsmen? I know Rand practices a lot, but Lan says it would take 5 years at least to become a blademaster. Granted, Rand kind of cheats with the void, but he still seems better than he should. And Ishamael's a philosopher. Why would he know or care how to use a sword?
It was a sport in the Age of Legends. Ishamael technically used a staff. Rand has past life memories.

Artur Hawkwing says, "We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon." Does this imply that the HotH will only follow the Dragon, even if a DF had blown the Horn? Or is it only because Rand is right there that they have to follow him?
Not sure why the Team chose to contradict this (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=86#4) in AMOL. It can't be blamed on unreliable POV; dead Hawkwing should know. (It was Hawkwing wasn't it?)

A lot of stuff confuses me about the battle at Falme. It's like RJ asked a high Steven Erikson to write it for him. Is there any actual reason why blowing the Horn transports everyone around it into another plane of existence or...something? How do Rand and Ishamael appear in the sky? Are they really there, or is just a projection, or...is it all just "magic?"
There are various theories about this, including a sort of superimposition of Tel'aran'rhiod over the real world.

Also, why are the Heroes tied to Rand's success or failure? If he tripped and fell right away, the HotH would have turned into incompetent morons that had their asses kicked by the Seanchan?
Probably. He's the Dragon; it's a way of symbolizing that they can't win if he fails.

And...why does Ishamael have a sword fight with Rand? Why not just use the OP or TP?
Ishamael always drags it out with Rand because he would rather Rand serve the Dark One alive.

Does the sword form "The Kingfisher Takes a Silverback" refer to a bird attacking a gorilla?
Bird > fish.

How does Ishamael know about Egwene and Nynaeve's importance to Rand? Just from spying on him enough?
He is a Dreamer. This was confirmed by Brandon etc.

When Moiraine finally appears right before the credits roll, she says "I have been doing what I could, here on Toman Head and in Falme." She mentions trying to save the two AS damane, and I guess she found the two Seals. But what did she do on Toman Head?
Nothing we find out about.

Moiraine also says this is the first time the Black Ajah has revealed itself in 2000 years, apparently forgetting her own battle with the BA 20 years earlier.
They didn't publicly reveal themselves then. Only when Liandrin and her 13 left the Tower and stole things did it become common knowledge that the Black Ajah was real, save 1) those not in the Tower and 2) the deniers.

Oh and one random thing I thought of. LTT is said to have killed "every living person who carried any of his blood, as well as everyone he loved." Did his weave search these people out all across the world to kill them? Or did they all happen to be at a barbecue at his house when he snapped and killed them all?
They were all together celebrating his victory at Shayol Ghul and probably intending to give him a homecoming congratulations party. News of the victory came well before it was clear that Lews and the 100 went mad.

rand
08-12-2014, 11:51 PM
There's more affirmation in Niall's prologue that the Aiel have never left the Waste before, aside from the Aiel War. I guess no one realizes they raid Shienar regularly?

Niall knows the Sea Folk are all going crazy, but he doesn't have a clue why. Yet Anaiya knows they're looking for their Chosen One months earlier at the beginning of tGH. Niall should be better informed. Or he just doesn't care.

One random thing I just thought of...do the Randlanders think the world is flat? It's mentioned a couple times that they doubt there's anything across the Aryth Ocean, but if they know the world is round they'd know you'd at least hit all the stuff east of the Waste.

Why does Niall want Almoth Plain, which is in the middle of a bunch of wars, vs any other random plot of land? It looks like much more than 50% of Randland is unclaimed by any nation, yet Niall picks the one place that two other nations are already fighting over.

Not sure where the prologue falls in relation to the opening chapters on the timeline, but it's mentioned that Fain arrived in Amadicia a month before Byar. He must have used the Ways, I guess?

Also, FWIW, the opening 4, 5, 6 chapters or so are pretty boring. Even the obligatory Trolloc attack feels kind of half-hearted.

How does Moiraine get all these random women (Blue eyes and ears?) to come to her?

Ok, so there's a bunch of cool stuff in Perrin's dream in chapter 4. A lot of foreshadowing for him and Lanfear in aMoL.

Before that, though...what does Perrin's lion helmet (and all the armor) symbolize? It seems to just stand for the glory Lanfear wants him to take. If that's right, does the lion have nothing to do with Andor at all?

Also, what's the drink Ishamael and Lanfear keep offering Perrin? Ishamael tries to feed to Rand in tEotW too. Is it just a lame way to trick them into turning to the darkside? It's kind of cheesy when they're genuinely upset when no one drinks it.

Why do the Forsaken like to meet in the Ways in TAR? They wouldn't have been around when they were still free. Is it always Ishamael that does it? It's also weird that the TAR Ways seem to be at their peak of beauty in tEotW, but now Perrin finds them "dim," even for his eyes, though it's obviously not as dark as the actual Ways.




All right, so, the foreshadowy stuff:

1) There are several references to Perrin using "both hands" for something. First, Lanfear says, "A man should grasp his destiny with both hands." A few lines later Perrin thinks he could encircle Lanfear's waist with his hands. Both of which would seem to foreshadow Perrin ultimately using both hands to snap her neck.


2) It seems as though Lanfear uses compulsion on Perrin in the dream (Maybe, at least. It doesn't seem very strong). He starts agreeing with her about his thirst for glory until the wolves start babbling in his head:
tDR 4
"Yes," he whispered. Inside him, startlement fought with acceptance. He had no use for glory. But when she said it, he wanted nothing else. "I mean..." The murmuring sound dug at his skull. "No!" It was gone, and for a moment, so was acceptance. Almost. He put a hand to his head, touched the golden helmet, took it off. "I...I don't think I want this. It is not mine."



3) In a brief fantasy about glory and the Horn, Perrin thinks this:
tDR 4
"I don't," he said, though a piece of him shouted that he lied. The Horn of Valere. The Horn rang out, and the wild charge began. Death rode at his shoulder, and yet she waited ahead, too. His lover. His destroyer. "No! I am a blacksmith."

Assuming the "she" refers to Lanfear (and not death), it's a foreshadowing of aMoL and also reference to the Dark Prophecy from tGH.


4) Lanfear leaves by saying, "I will always be in your dreams." I guess this is foreshadowing, sort of, but my question is: is she always in Perrin's dreams? I forget, to they really even interact with each other again until aMoL? Are we to assume she's been watching him in TAR all that time? This may have been answered in aMoL, but if so I forgot.

Terez
08-13-2014, 12:09 AM
There's more affirmation in Niall's prologue that the Aiel have never left the Waste before, aside from the Aiel War. I guess no one realizes they raid Shienar regularly?
Only on the Eastern Marches, which is sort of brackish territory.

Why does Niall want Almoth Plain, which is in the middle of a bunch of wars, vs any other random plot of land? It looks like much more than 50% of Randland is unclaimed by any nation, yet Niall picks the one place that two other nations are already fighting over.
Doesn't he explain all that? He wants it because Arad Doman and Tarabon have been fighting over Almoth Plain since the fall of Almoth. He thinks he can claim it for the Whitecloaks and get both sides to back down.

How does Moiraine get all these random women (Blue eyes and ears?) to come to her?
They're like cats. Or, she gives them coins.

Before that, though...what does Perrin's lion helmet (and all the armor) symbolize? It seems to just stand for the glory Lanfear wants him to take. If that's right, does the lion have nothing to do with Andor at all?
The thought about the axe seems to suggest past life memories. I had a theory that he was the last king of Aldeshar in a past life, Ishara's maternal grandfather Joal Ramedar, but I can't really remember the main reasoning, aside from the lion helmet and the Rhea mythology. The elite fighters in Aldeshar's army were the Golden Lions. They were the last nation to fall to Hawkwing, and Ishara built Andor out of one of Hawkwing's provinces, using Caemlyn as her seat.

Also, what's the drink Ishamael and Lanfear keep offering Perrin?
McDonald's coffee.

Why do the Forsaken like to meet in the Ways in TAR?
They don't. It's a construct of Tel'aran'rhiod, or rather its dark spaces.

GonzoTheGreat
08-13-2014, 03:06 AM
Why does Niall want Almoth Plain, which is in the middle of a bunch of wars, vs any other random plot of land? It looks like much more than 50% of Randland is unclaimed by any nation, yet Niall picks the one place that two other nations are already fighting over.
Almoth Plain has an advantage over, for instance, the Caralain Grass: it has an actual population. If the WC were to move to the GC, then they would have to do their own farming if they wanted to eat. On AP they could simply levy taxes and then, like, buy stuff.

Davian93
08-13-2014, 07:05 AM
Almoth Plain has an advantage over, for instance, the Caralain Grass: it has an actual population. If the WC were to move to the GC, then they would have to do their own farming if they wanted to eat. On AP they could simply levy taxes and then, like, buy stuff.

To be fair, Niall's plan is actually a really good one. Almoth is a bucket waiting to be filled and his legion of Whitecloaks, if used correctly, would have turned it into a new nation run directly by them. Then he would have been able to easily squeeze Tarabon between Almoth and Amadicia until it fell to their influence too...and once all 3 of those were in place, Arad Doman would have had no choice but to negotiate/allow WC influence there too. If not for the whole Dragon Reborn/End of the World thing, he probably would have taken over 1/3 of Randland within a 10 year period.

He was a Great Captain for a reason...even if he was basically a Nazi.

rand
08-14-2014, 12:51 AM
How did all the Trollocs get from the Blight to the mountains? Just the Ways again?

After the Trolloc fight Rand admits he could sense the Shadowspawn long before they arrived but didn't realize what it was. Yet Moiraine and Lan only burst out of their house while the Trollocs are already in the camp. Is this because he's stronger in the OP that he can sense them so much sooner than Moiraine?

Perrin and Loial freak out when Moiraine says the Forsaken are probably free, even though they know perfectly well that they're free already from tEotW. Also, I guess it's just a classic example of no one telling anyone anything in WoT, but Min for some reason refuses to tell anyone Lanfear is around, aside from a vague, sort of useless warning to Perrin.

And FWIW their whole conversation about the Forsaken completely ignores Aginor and Balthamel. It's not as if they're dismissing them because they're already dead; Moiraine still talks about the "thirteen" Forsaken breaking free.

How does Moiraine catch the fish on their way into Ghealdan? Is there a OP fish-summoning weave?

I forgot, but is Sammael behind all the Gray Men and Darkhounds hunting Rand in this book?

Who's the guy with the funny clothes who gets skinned in Perrin's dream? If he's from Shara, is this in any way related to Demandred? Or his he just some random dude who wears weird clothes and got sucked into TAR?

After Perrin watches the guy die, he wanders into what looks to be a different building and sees Lanfear. The place is described like this:
tDR 9
Colorful tapestries hung along the walls between tall golden stands holding dozens of candles that illuminated white floor tiles and a ceiling painted with fluffy clouds and fanciful birds in flight. Nothing moved but the flickering candle flames along the length of that hall, stretching as far as he could see, or in the pointed arches of white stone that occasionally broke the walls.

[...]

He came abreast of the first of the pointed white archways. It let into a huge room, apparently windowless, but furnished as ornately as any palace, the furniture all carved and gilded and inlaid with ivory. A woman stood in the middle of the room, frowning at a tattered manuscript lying open on a table. A black-haired, black-eyed, beautiful woman clothed in white and silver.

Any idea what this place is? The ceilings painted like clouds remind me of Ebou Dar, but I'm not sure if the rest of the description really matches. Also, what's Lanfear reading?

And a kind of random question: where do Randlanders get ivory from?

Terez
08-14-2014, 02:06 AM
Fish: the Blues have a secret weave to summon insects; it could probably be adapted easily enough.

The skinned dude: probably someone who displeased Lanfear. She has used that method one other time that we know of, but no one else has.

Lanfear: probably reading prophecy.

Ivory: from Shara. Peddlers are allowed to cross the Waste, and the Cairhienin also were as recently as 20 years ago. The Sea Folk trade with Shara.

rand
08-15-2014, 01:35 AM
On their way back to Tar Valon, Egwene notes that Hurin vehemently avoids Verin. Is this just because she's an AS, or can he smell that she's Black Ajah? Presumably she's done some violent things in order to make it appear she's a DF.

When they encounter Dain Bornhald, not only does Egwene fail to recognize his name (or rather, that he has the same last name as the WC who captured her), she and Nynaeve don't realize they actually met this guy back in Baerlon. I guess it was dark then, though...

I'm trying to picture RJ's conversation with the woman who draws the maps:
-Ellisa Mitchell: Is this map of Tar Valon good, Mr. Jordan?
-RJ: No, no, no. Make it look even more like a vagina.

I find it curious that Verin freaks out when the girls start babbling in front of Sheriam (even using all caps), but was at least comparatively more lenient when they were talking in front of the WCs and the TV guard. Since she knows Sheriam is Black, is she trying to keep info from her?

Who ordered the Gray Man to shoot Egwene? It seems like we're supposed to suspect Sheriam, especially since we know she's Black now. Maybe Liandrin ordered her try to kill the girls if/when they got back? In any event, who ordered Slayer? It seems as though he was there to prevent the Gray Man from killing the girls, not just to keep the GM from talking. Otherwise they'd have just sent Slayer alone to begin with.

Why does Mat's "Healing" chapter have the Heron Mark sword as the icon? Is it supposed to represent Manetheren in general?

How strong is Nynaeve? During the healing, she figures she might be able to channel roughly half of what 10 AS using a super strong sa'angreal can. Is this just a mistake? She shouldn't be anywhere near that strong.

After they heal Mat, Elayne asks Siuan what he was saying in the Old Tongue. Aren't nobles supposed to know the OT? I know most don't, really, but that's because they're lazy snobs. You'd think Elayne would have a better education than most "lordlings."

Right after Mat wakes up (and before the Aemon thing), he has a bunch of memories flood into him. Stuff like Ways, Portal Stones, Loial, Bayle, etc. One of them is "a well-dressed man who spoke to him like a father giving sage advice." Who is this? The only thing that comes to mind is Ishamael, I guess, though "well-dressed" is hardly the first thing I'd think of regarding him if I were Mat.

Mat also mentions a "beautiful woman" in this memory sequence thing. And later when Lanfear shows up he seems to recognize her. Where did he see her before? Just in his dreams? Or in the Portal Stone or something?

We find out that Siuan's uncle's name is Huan, which is also the name of Turak's servant guy. Obviously this means her uncle faked his own death in a burning building and joined the Seanchan. Siuan plotted with him for many years. In a daring plot, Siuan orchestrated the entire series of events that led from her being stilled to Elaida becoming Amyrlin, all so that the Seanchan could one day capture Elaida for a damane. Or something like that. :p

When she goes to pick up the info on the 13 BA sisters, Egwene appears to see Lanfear leaving Verin's room. What's the connection? Did Lanfear have Verin give the Dream ter'angreal to Egwene? If so, why?

Also, why doesn't Verin give Egwene the TAR instruction manual? Is she defying Lanfear's orders to teach Egwene about TAR or something?

When Verin randomly reads the Ishamael paper to Egwene, is she probably trying to tell Egwene that Ishamael is Ba'alzamon?

Is Anaiya especially gifted at Healing? Verin says she went to her after being wounded in TAR, and Lan apparently carried a half-dead Moiraine to her once.

Davian93
08-15-2014, 10:05 AM
On their way back to Tar Valon, Egwene notes that Hurin vehemently avoids Verin. Is this just because she's an AS, or can he smell that she's Black Ajah? Presumably she's done some violent things in order to make it appear she's a DF.

Yes on both accounts most likely. The BA thing is the most likely reason...I mean, if you were him in that scenario, he has to know that she knows that he knows. His best bet is to just stay quiet and leave her alone in the hopes she lets him live.

I find it curious that Verin freaks out when the girls start babbling in front of Sheriam (even using all caps), but was at least comparatively more lenient when they were talking in front of the WCs and the TV guard. Since she knows Sheriam is Black, is she trying to keep info from her?

Verin is playing both sides...she doesnt need a high-ranking BA to know everything she's up to.

How strong is Nynaeve? During the healing, she figures she might be able to channel roughly half of what 10 AS using a super strong sa'angreal can. Is this just a mistake? She shouldn't be anywhere near that strong.


She is likely over-estimating her own abilities or exagerrating due to her inexperience.

After they heal Mat, Elayne asks Siuan what he was saying in the Old Tongue. Aren't nobles supposed to know the OT? I know most don't, really, but that's because they're lazy snobs. You'd think Elayne would have a better education than most "lordlings."


Yes, they are but most dont know more than a few phrases to impress their lessers. Elayne was shown to be a fairly poor/lazy student overall on several ocasions so its not a huge surprise she didn't work too hard during her Old Tongue lessons. Put it along the same lines as rich people having to learn Latin in the early 20th/late 19th century. Most schools required it but most students didnt really know much Latin let alone spoke it. Hell, I took Latin for 5 years and I'd have a ton of trouble understanding more than bits and pieces if you were actually speaking it to me. I can still read it fairly well at least.

Also, why doesn't Verin give Egwene the TAR instruction manual? Is she defying Lanfear's orders to teach Egwene about TAR or something?

Its fairly obvious that Verin is violating her orders by giving Egwene access to TAR and any instruction at all on it. Giving her the notes would have likely put her in fairly mortal danger as it would have been more evidence that Verin did it.

When Verin randomly reads the Ishamael paper to Egwene, is she probably trying to tell Egwene that Ishamael is Ba'alzamon?

Yes...ashame Egwene is fairly dense and it takes her months to put it together.

Is Anaiya especially gifted at Healing? Verin says she went to her after being wounded in TAR, and Lan apparently carried a half-dead Moiraine to her once.

It would seem she is and that she was fairly reliable to keep her mouth shut about what she was healing...unlike a random Yellow who might blab to everyone as to what Moiraine or Verin had been up to.

Terez
08-15-2014, 12:54 PM
I think RJ had not decided whether Sheriam was Black at that point. In later notes he has Light-minded explanations for why she did things, but then in the latest notes, he has Black-minded explanations, so he made that decision kind of at the last minute. I think Verin was concerned that the girls were getting above themselves after their adventure, and their babbling to Sheriam was evidence that they hadn't quite taken her admonitions to heart.

As for Hurin and Verin, I really doubt he smelled violence on her. He would be unlikely to keep that secret, and probably unlikely to travel with Verin at all. Would you travel with one of the Black Ajah? He would know, if he smelled violence on her. No, he was just nervous around Aes Sedai, particularly those interested his talent.

Davian93
08-15-2014, 01:00 PM
He definitely would have smelled violence on her though as she had likely done literally awful things as a BA member. It makes more sense to think he'd basically keep his head down and not say anything. First of all, who'd believe him and do you think he'd be brave enough to cross an AS, black or not? Best to just pretend like you dont notice it and hope Verin doesnt kill you.

Terez
08-15-2014, 01:22 PM
He definitely would have smelled violence on her though as she had likely done literally awful things as a BA member.
But it fades as time goes on, even in the place where it was done. I'd say Verin has committed some violence at this point, but not very much, and not necessarily any time recently. She knew what Hurin could do; if she thought she had anything to worry about, she wouldn't have put herself in that position.

It fades with time, but the worse the violence, the longer it lasts. Aiie, I can smell a battlefield ten years old, though the trails of the men who were there are gone. Up near the Blight, the trails of the Trollocs almost never fade. Not much to a Trolloc but killing and hurting. A fight in a tavern, though, with maybe a broken arm ... that smell's gone in hours......This is the worst ever, though. Murder smells bad, and the trail of a murderer stinks with it, but this ......There were men in it last night. Darkfriends, must be, but you can't tell a Darkfriend by smell. What I'll follow is the Trollocs, and the Halfmen. And something even worse.

Davian93
08-15-2014, 01:32 PM
But it fades as time goes on, even in the place where it was done. I'd say Verin has committed some violence at this point, but not very much, and not necessarily any time recently. She knew what Hurin could do; if she thought she had anything to worry about, she wouldn't have put herself in that position.

As a high-ranking BA member, her hands are must be figuratively blood-soaked by the amount of violent acts she has committed.

Perhaps she channeled at him (even though she admits her crude compulsion doesnt work well on men as they are usually too suspicious) to keep him in line or perhaps he was smart enough to not question a AS? Maybe being a channeler effects sniffing? Or maybe he's run into quite a few AS with very bloody pasts so he doesnt necessasrily equate that with being a BA (which they deny exist to begin with).

I doubt that the average high-ranking BA often goes a long period without committing some sort of evil violent act.


PS: There is, of course, another fairly likely explanation: It was a simple whoops by RJ and his team that nobody really thought about until now.

Terez
08-15-2014, 01:50 PM
I doubt the PS, but I also doubt that Verin is quite so blood-soaked as all that. I'm sure she's done a lot of violence over the 70 years she's been with the Black, but there's nothing to say she's killed anyone recently.

Davian93
08-15-2014, 01:53 PM
I doubt the PS, but I also doubt that Verin is quite so blood-soaked as all that. I'm sure she's done a lot of violence over the 70 years she's been with the Black, but there's nothing to say she's killed anyone recently.

It wouldn't exactly be the first continuity error in the early books...the whole "4 straight Amyrlins of the Blue Ajah" comes to mind from tEotW.

It does bring up a somewhat related question...how come Perrin, who was with Verin quite a bit in the Two Rivers, smell out what Verin was?

Not exactly the same thing as Sniffing but he's been able to smell out quite a bit of other things about people so why not that?

I also doubt that any BA in the inner circle like she was (or sheriam or Aviarin) isn't blood soaked. I highly doubt they get promoted based off anything else.

rand
08-15-2014, 02:18 PM
I guess it's just hard to say what Hurin can and can't smell. In the mirror world he says he could smell violence around everyone there (Rand, Loial, and Lanfear). Lanfear is obvious, and Rand killed 100,000 Trollocs in Tarwin's Gap, but I'm guessing Loial didn't do anything on that scale--yet Hurin can still smell his violent past.

On the other hand, Hurin apparently can't smell Egwene, who blew up roughly 200 Seanchan soldiers in Falme.

Terez
08-15-2014, 03:19 PM
I imagine that self-defense smells different than murder, and war is kind of somewhere in between. If different types of violence don't smell different, then any violence Hurin smelled on Verin could have been her killing Trollocs and Fades, which Aes Sedai supposedly do all the time along the Blight.

I don't deny continuity errors in WoT; I've pointed out many myself. I just doubt that RJ wouldn't have thought about Verin being Black and what that would mean for Hurin. Though of course it's possible that RJ hadn't decided on Verin until after TDR was published. She was one of the big current mysteries in his fandom at that time, but the Internet was not really a thing, and from what I have seen I think it's possible he didn't decide on Verin's backstory until around the time he was writing TSR, or maybe even LOC.

It's hard to tell because his notes are in files that are updated for new books, but not thoroughly updated for era consistency. You might have a file that has bits clearly written before TDR, but other bits clearly written while he was working on LOC. The gap doesn't get much wider than that, though; he did write all new files from time to time.

My personal suspicion, not based on anything in the notes, is that she was intended to be Black from the beginning, and perhaps the nuance only came later as fans totally fell in love with Verin and didn't want her to be evil.

GonzoTheGreat
08-16-2014, 04:03 AM
On the other hand, Hurin apparently can't smell Egwene, who blew up roughly 200 Seanchan soldiers in Falme.
But that was just Egwene being Egwene, wasn't it? :p

BTW, what evidence is there for Verin being a high ranking BA member?
That she's BA is clear (unless she lied about that) but I don't remember her being in the council, and I can't remember any references to other ranks in the BA either.

Zombie Sammael
08-16-2014, 07:51 AM
But that was just Egwene being Egwene, wasn't it? :p

BTW, what evidence is there for Verin being a high ranking BA member?
That she's BA is clear (unless she lied about that) but I don't remember her being in the council, and I can't remember any references to other ranks in the BA either.

It is reasonable to think that some degree of rank must have been achieved by her in order to compile such a comprehensive list of members. A new or lower ranked member would not have been trusted enough to be able to do so.

GonzoTheGreat
08-16-2014, 09:11 AM
She wasn't a new member; she'd been part of the organization for four score minus ten years. She was unusually observant, and spent much of her time studying the membership of the BA.
True, having been a high ranking member could have helped, but it would also have increased the risk, considering the way in which they would've vied for those posts.

Edited to add:
I'm not saying that she definitely wasn't a high ranking BA member, merely that it requires more than "she might have been" to settle that question.

rand
08-18-2014, 02:22 AM
The Aes Sedai let Egwene into the Accepted ter'angreal knowing full well that something is wrong with it. Apparently the White Tower is run by the same board of governors as Hogwarts.

Assuming the Accepted ter'angreal shows you real versions of your parallel selves in various mirror worlds, are Egwene's first vision (of her being married to Rand in Emond's Field) and Rand's vision from the Portal Stone in tGH from the exact same mirror world? The wording of Rand's headaches and channeling is almost exactly the same, iirc.

Why is the vision of Caemlyn in ruins considered "what is" (ie, the present)?

Sheriam reacts oddly when Egwene brings up the 13x13 turning. Is there any evidence that she herself was turned?

Sheriam also seems to lie in this scene:
tDR 22
"It [the turning] took thirteen Dreadlords--darkfriends who could channel--weaving the flows through thirteen Myrddraal. You see? Not easily done. There are no Dreadlords today."

Based off of Sheriam's own definition, all the Black Ajah members are Dreadlords, and so they obviously still exist.

Egwene also more or less blurts out to Sheriam that Rand can channel:
tDR 22
"I couldn't, Rand," she whispered. "I couldn't. Please forgive me,"
[...]
"He said they could turn him to the Shadow," Egwene mumbled. "He said the Myrddraal and the Dreadlords could force him."

Maybe this is why Sheriam stumbles?


In her final vision thing Egwene punches Elaida's friend in the face and thinks, "Thank you, Perrin, for showing me how to do that. But you didn't tell me how much it hurts when you do." Is this Egwene's thought from real life, or from the ter'angreal? In either case, is it supposed to foreshadow something? I don't remember Perrin punching someone in the face, and it doesn't seem like something Perrin would have taught Egwene back in Emond's Field.

What was Alanna after when she tried to get kitchen punishments alongside Egwene? I know she seems kind of obsessed with Rand, but as an AS to an Accepted, she could ask that anytime. I'm guessing Siuan's explanation of "because she's from Arafel and that's how they roll" isn't necessarily correct.

Why does Lanfear (as Else) clearly need to avoid being close to Mat? I know if he touched her he would feel that she wasn't really a plump girl, but she doesn't seem to want to even get within a certain radius of him. Is it something to do with what she channeled at him?

Do we know where Mat's luck is from officially? I know some people think Lanfear did it, and it does seem to only really kick in at this point...

If Else has been gone from the Tower for 10 days, how does Lanfear pose as her? Wouldn't people wonder why Else was still there after having been dismissed a while ago?

Egwene dreams of Whitecloaks binding her father's hands. Is this just a generic reference to the WCs in the Two Rivers in tSR? Cause Bran doesn't get captured, does he?

Verin personally wrote "DANGEROUS AND ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO CONTROL" in the notes regarding the balefire wand. Did she read a warning about it somewhere else, or has she personally used it? Is that how she got a permanent scar from TAR? (I know that BF wouldn't just leave a scar, but whatever...)

When Egwene goes into TAR for the first time, she finds Perrin in a room with Hopper. Which is fine. But Perrin is holding himself chained to a black stone pillar. What's this?

I know it's all but confirmed (or maybe is confirmed) that Sylvie is Lanfear, but I find it odd that Lanfear disguises herself as an ugly, loony old lady here--and actually acts the part. Even when she's being Selene or Else in other parts of the story, she doesn't really try to act differently from her normal arrogant self.

GonzoTheGreat
08-18-2014, 02:54 AM
Lanfear does act somewhat differently than her normal self when she's in the Waste. Until she decides to skin Kadere and throw a hissy fit, at least.

Terez
08-18-2014, 03:36 AM
Assuming the Accepted ter'angreal shows you real versions of your parallel selves in various mirror worlds, are Egwene's first vision (of her being married to Rand in Emond's Field) and Rand's vision from the Portal Stone in tGH from the exact same mirror world? The wording of Rand's headaches and channeling is almost exactly the same, iirc.
I think the Accepted test probably draws from Mirror Worlds but isn't strictly tied to them. There is more detail I might go into later.

Why is the vision of Caemlyn in ruins considered "what is" (ie, the present)?
Present fears.

Sheriam reacts oddly when Egwene brings up the 13x13 turning. Is there any evidence that she herself was turned?
She wasn't. People who are turned are noticeably not human any more. Besides, she gives her reasoning for joining in TGS.

What was Alanna after when she tried to get kitchen punishments alongside Egwene? I know she seems kind of obsessed with Rand, but as an AS to an Accepted, she could ask that anytime.
She probably thought she'd be more likely to get helpful answers that way.

Do we know where Mat's luck is from officially? I know some people think Lanfear did it, and it does seem to only really kick in at this point...
It's a product of his being healed from the dagger's influence. I seem to remember this was confirmed, either on tour or in the notes.

If Else has been gone from the Tower for 10 days, how does Lanfear pose as her? Wouldn't people wonder why Else was still there after having been dismissed a while ago?
You just answered an earlier question. Else was convenient because she was known and only some Aes Sedai and a few others would know she had been sent away.

Egwene dreams of Whitecloaks binding her father's hands. Is this just a generic reference to the WCs in the Two Rivers in tSR? Cause Bran doesn't get captured, does he?
In the sense of the expression, his hands were tied.

Verin personally wrote "DANGEROUS AND ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO CONTROL" in the notes regarding the balefire wand. Did she read a warning about it somewhere else, or has she personally used it?
That was what was learned from it being studied.

When Egwene goes into TAR for the first time, she finds Perrin in a room with Hopper. Which is fine. But Perrin is holding himself chained to a black stone pillar. What's this?
He's trying to keep himself from becoming a wolf.

Davian93
08-18-2014, 08:31 AM
In her final vision thing Egwene punches Elaida's friend in the face and thinks, "Thank you, Perrin, for showing me how to do that. But you didn't tell me how much it hurts when you do." Is this Egwene's thought from real life, or from the ter'angreal? In either case, is it supposed to foreshadow something? I don't remember Perrin punching someone in the face, and it doesn't seem like something Perrin would have taught Egwene back in Emond's Field.


Most logical answer...both Perrin and Egwene grew up in the village and it was a very small village. Unlike Rand who only got into town once in a while as he was way out in the Westwood, Perrin literally grew up only a few houses away from Egwene as he was the blacksmith's apprentice. Thus, he probably had a fairly to somewhat close platonic relationship with Egwene. At some point during that 10 years or so that he was an apprentice, he probably showed Egwene how to hit someone just for fun...never thinking she would ever need to do it or would want to do it. I mean, they likely saw each other every single day for years.

GonzoTheGreat
08-18-2014, 09:40 AM
Most logical answer...both Perrin and Egwene grew up in the village and it was a very small village. Unlike Rand who only got into town once in a while as he was way out in the Westwood, Perrin literally grew up only a few houses away from Egwene as he was the blacksmith's apprentice. Thus, he probably had a fairly to somewhat close platonic relationship with Egwene. At some point during that 10 years or so that he was an apprentice, he probably showed Egwene how to hit someone just for fun...never thinking she would ever need to do it or would want to do it. I mean, they likely saw each other every single day for years.
Bonus answer: he may have shown her off screen while they were walking towards their meeting with Elyas, so that if necessary she would have an extra defense method.

Davian93
08-18-2014, 10:11 AM
Bonus answer: he may have shown her off screen while they were walking towards their meeting with Elyas, so that if necessary she would have an extra defense method.

That is also a distinct possibility...given that we get 2-3 weeks compressed into maybe half a page of actual words...most of which have to do with snares, wild mushrooms and walking.

rand
08-19-2014, 02:06 AM
It's a product of his being healed from the dagger's influence. I seem to remember this was confirmed, either on tour or in the notes.
Ok, yeah, I guess Mat kind of thinks this too later. So my question now is why Healing Mat would give him this luck. Mat thinks they could have done it accidentally.


At some point during that 10 years or so that he was an apprentice, he probably showed Egwene how to hit someone just for fun...
Yeah, I guess that's the best answer. Hopefully he wasn't practicing on either of the Luhhans...






I didn't read a whole lot today, but here's a few things.

When the three women come to visit Mat, his thoughts and Nynaeve's expression make it clear he's kind of notorious for breaking promises. But later on in another book, isn't it Nynaeve herself who says Mat would never break a promise?

Do we really know anything about Laras? I remember she got a cameo in aMoL, but I don't remember it being very significant. It seems like she's built up over the course of the series to be someone important, and then...nothing.

What's up with the dead Gray Man woman in Sheriam's bed? Was it just to scare Sheriam? Was it meant to kill Sheriam, but someone killed it first? It says there weren't any marks on the body, so Slayer likely didn't kill it.

Siuan says only about a dozen people in the Tower know that Callandor is a sa'angreal. Not sure if this is contradicted in later books, but I feel like this should be fairly common knowledge, at least among the Browns. If Siuan found out what it is, there must be a way for others to as well.

GonzoTheGreat
08-19-2014, 03:03 AM
Do we really know anything about Laras? I remember she got a cameo in aMoL, but I don't remember it being very significant. It seems like she's built up over the course of the series to be someone important, and then...nothing.
Her place was usurped by Lini. Who, admittedly, also did absolutely nothing.

Davian93
08-19-2014, 06:48 AM
Laras does do something super important...she helps Min, Siuan and Leane escape Tar Valon. That's the climax of her mini-story arc within the books.

rand
08-20-2014, 02:02 AM
This is probably just a weird coincidence, but I thought this was neat foreshadowing:
tDR 32
When Mat led a still-muttering Thom under an arch of polished redstone and down broad steps to the wharf, crewmen on one three-masted ship were unfastening the mooring lines not twenty paces away.

Like I said, it's probably nothing, but it would be a cool foreshadowing of the redstone doorways to Finnland.


In one point during his killing rampage in Tar Valon and then on the boat, Mat thinks to himself that he's never killed anyone before. But he killed a Seanchan guy with the ruby dagger at the end of tGH. Is this one of the "holes" in his memory? I thought he remembers this scene at another point, for some reason, though I could be wrong.

When Perrin sees Gaul in the cage, he wonders about him being so far from the Waste, and then thinks, But I saw one this side of the Spine of the World, and now I've seen two. Apparently he doesn't count the three Maidens he met in the stedding...

I know Rand's a good walker due to his Aiel blood, but there should be no way he can outrun the others, especially with Moiraine and Lan presumably moving as quickly as possible to catch up with him. He seems to go into TAR a lot on his journey...is he Traveling (sort of) in TAR without realizing it? (ie, his steps take him further than he realistically can, like what Perrin likes to do).

I forget, but when Perrin's on trial in ToM for killing the two Whitecloaks, does he ever think back to when he and Gaul slaughtered a dozen of them in Remen? Kind of like, Gee, I'm glad they didn't know about that other time...

When Faile tells Perrin that she thinks the Horn is in the ruins of Manetheren, Perrin recalls Moiraine telling the story of Manetheren. But as I already noted at the very beginning of this reread, Perrin wasn't there for that. He was standing around in the stables. I guess Moiraine could have filled him in at some point.

Are the woman Rand beheads and her guards all DFs? I know there's a Gray Man with them, but he could have just moved in when he saw Rand was distracted.

On the boat out of TV, one of Egwene's dreams is of "A woman playing with puppets." Is this Elaida, or someone else specific? Or just a generic dream saying people are going to be using other people like puppets?

I don't remember if I noticed before that Egwene can sense Aviendha's ability to channel almost right away. And later on it seems pretty clear that Aviendha has progressed at least to the point in her abilities where she can see the glow of saidar around Egwene. This took about half a year or more to happen to Egwene, so Aviendha has likely been channeling for a while by this time.

GonzoTheGreat
08-20-2014, 02:57 AM
On the boat out of TV, one of Egwene's dreams is of "A woman playing with puppets." Is this Elaida, or someone else specific? Or just a generic dream saying people are going to be using other people like puppets?
Could be Verin. :p

Davian93
08-20-2014, 07:50 AM
When Faile tells Perrin that she thinks the Horn is in the ruins of Manetheren, Perrin recalls Moiraine telling the story of Manetheren. But as I already noted at the very beginning of this reread, Perrin wasn't there for that. He was standing around in the stables. I guess Moiraine could have filled him in at some point.

The three boys likely talk about that story repeatedly during their time together before they get separated at Shadar Logoth.

I know Rand's a good walker due to his Aiel blood, but there should be no way he can outrun the others, especially with Moiraine and Lan presumably moving as quickly as possible to catch up with him.

A good distance runner (like an ultra-marathoner along the lines of what an Aiel would be) can easily outrun a horse in longer distances. Horses need to stop and eat while Rand can literally eat on the run, drink on the run, etc. Also, lots of motivation on his part.

GonzoTheGreat
08-20-2014, 08:55 AM
A good distance runner (like an ultra-marathoner along the lines of what an Aiel would be) can easily outrun a horse in longer distances. Horses need to stop and eat while Rand can literally eat on the run, drink on the run, etc. Also, lots of motivation on his part.
Some hunter-gatherer tribes hunted big game in that way: simply start chasing something (an elephant, for instance) and continue after it until it drops dead of exhaustion. That actually works, if your own condition is good enough. Caveat: if you try this on a big elephant, it may be a good idea to have some backup, in case the beast turns on you. Or in case a pack of hyenas shows up at your kill.

rand
08-20-2014, 02:06 PM
I can see Rand beating them to Remen, but once they take the ship they should, as Moiraine says, cut days out of the overland journey.

Davian93
08-20-2014, 08:03 PM
I can see Rand beating them to Remen, but once they take the ship they should, as Moiraine says, cut days out of the overland journey.

Not really all that much...given that Rand cut directly across from the river to Tear where they had to go south, stop a couple days and then go overland from Illian to Tear.

rand
08-21-2014, 01:15 AM
When Egwene and co. get captured (for the first time (in this book)), the Fade recognizes Lan's ring and realizes they caught the right women. How does the Shadow know Nynaeve had Lan's ring with her?

From what Mat says when he gets there, Aringill is in Andor and Maerone across the river is in Cairhien. But if you look at any of the maps at the front of the book, Aringill and Maerone aren't in either nation. I'm guessing this is just a mistake with the map. The border between Andor and Cairhien seems kind of weird: instead of the border being the River Erinin (as is implied in the books), it kind of squiggles back and forth over the river.

After Moiraine leaves the Badger to search Illian, Perrin goes into the Wolf Dream and finds himself seemingly in the Aiel Waste. Is this just a random TAR thing, or his subconscious thoughts of Gaul, or...what?

I still find it odd that everyone talks as though the whole encounter with Aginor and Balthamel never happened. Moiraine doesn't mention them to Siuan at the beginning of tGH, Moiraine still thinks of there being 13 of them at the beginning of tDR, and again in Illian everyone starts freaking out again over the fact that the Forsaken may be free.

We find out that Sammael is controlling the Darkhounds around Illian. So presumably he sent the one that made it all the way to Remen, on the border of Murandy. What's Sammael's interest in Murandy (it's mentioned several other times as well)? I know it was used for Roedrad stuff, but now that that was debunked, what was Sammael planning?

How did Moiraine manage to get close to Sammael, who was presumably in one of the big palaces? And how did she recognize him as being Sammael? I suppose she could have used the OP to eavesdrop, but it seems unlikely anyone would actually be using his real name in conversation with him.

At the Queen's Blessing in Caemlyn, Mat doesn't remember the library at all. This could just be one of the holes in his memory, but later on he remembers Rand telling them about climbing the Palace wall to meet Elayne. And that scene took place in the library, iirc.

I have a couple questions about Rahvin. He's always described as "dark" by Mat. Does he just mean his hair, or is Rahvin black? If he is, why would anyone believe he's an Andoran lord?

Also, is Rahvin using Illusion to change his appearance? He's described as taller than Rand, as muscular as Perrin, and as handsome as Galad. All of which could be true, I guess, but maybe he's using the Power to make himself a bit more appealing to Morgase?

When Mat tells Morgase he's from a town north of Baerlon, she doesn't seem to believe him. I guess this is her recognition of a Two Rivers accent again?

Morgase asks Mat to tell Elayne about her "quiet talks with Sheriam in her study." Ignoring the mistake here (that Sheriam wouldn't have been Mistress of Novices back then), what is Morgase trying to say? Tallanvor thinks she's talking in code. Thom keeps going on about how Morgase is an amazing player of the Great Game, and earlier Thom tries, and fails, to find a code in Elayne's letter to Morgase. Are Elayne and Morgase using code to talk to each other?

Egwene has a dream about Rand confronting her, and she has a Seanchan woman by her side. I'm guessing this is one of the Egeanin things, but Rand was already gone to Shayol Ghul by the time the two Egs hooked up, right? I'm guessing this is just a mistake for aMoL.

I hope the Encyclopedia includes maps of Illian and Tear. Tear especially. In tDR, it's made clear that Tear (the city) is west of the Erinin (Egwene and co. get off on that side and never cross the river again). But in tSR and all the other books, iirc, it's all suddenly on the east side.

I'm not sure of this is foreshadowing or an allusion or anything, but when they're in Mother Guenna's house Egwene reads a book about "the humorous tales of Aleria Elffin," which sounds suspiciously like Aelfinn/Eelfinn.

GonzoTheGreat
08-21-2014, 03:54 AM
We find out that Sammael is controlling the Darkhounds around Illian. So presumably he sent the one that made it all the way to Remen, on the border of Murandy. What's Sammael's interest in Murandy (it's mentioned several other times as well)? I know it was used for Roedrad stuff, but now that that was debunked, what was Sammael planning?Sammael may have considered conquering Murandy. His eventual goal was world domination, so he would've had to get it some time anyway. He probably decided that it was not worth the effort right then when he learned what a mess it was, politically speaking.

At the Queen's Blessing in Caemlyn, Mat doesn't remember the library at all. This could just be one of the holes in his memory, but later on he remembers Rand telling them about climbing the Palace wall to meet Elayne. And that scene took place in the library, iirc.He had probably just suppressed the memory of all those books. He can read, but he'd rather not be reminded of that.

Egwene has a dream about Rand confronting her, and she has a Seanchan woman by her side. I'm guessing this is one of the Egeanin things, but Rand was already gone to Shayol Ghul by the time the two Egs hooked up, right? I'm guessing this is just a mistake for aMoL.Egwene and Egeanin meet in the early parts of AMoL, before Rand has gone. Technically, Egeanin/Leilwin then starts serving Egwene, though the latter tries to ignore it for quite a while.

I'm not sure of this is foreshadowing or an allusion or anything, but when they're in Mother Guenna's house Egwene reads a book about "the humorous tales of Aleria Elffin," which sounds suspiciously like Aelfinn/Eelfinn.Neat find, this. Maybe JK Rowling could produce that book. :p

Davian93
08-21-2014, 10:13 AM
Aringill is in Andor and Maerone across the river is in Cairhien. But if you look at any of the maps at the front of the book, Aringill and Maerone aren't in either nation. I'm guessing this is just a mistake with the map. The border between Andor and Cairhien seems kind of weird: instead of the border being the River Erinin (as is implied in the books), it kind of squiggles back and forth over the river.


This has always bothered me too...but I can put it down to there being both a de jure border and a de facto one. Basically that entire area is a March for both sides and they are fighting over it nearly continuously so the fact that the river is the border in the text is just the current actual de facto border while other countries probably recognize the map border as the legal border...same with the Two Rivers legally being part of Andor despite not seeing a tax collector in over six generations or for those vast areas of Altara that, on the map, owe allegiance to Ebou Dar but in reality basically function as independent fiefdoms.

I have a couple questions about Rahvin. He's always described as "dark" by Mat. Does he just mean his hair, or is Rahvin black? If he is, why would anyone believe he's an Andoran lord?


I always took it to mean "dark" like an Italian or Spaniard is "dark" compared to a northern European...but not African looking (as the Sea Folk and some Seanchan are described).

How did Moiraine manage to get close to Sammael, who was presumably in one of the big palaces? And how did she recognize him as being Sammael? I suppose she could have used the OP to eavesdrop, but it seems unlikely anyone would actually be using his real name in conversation with him.

Remember that she did a ton of crash research on all of the Forsaken during her time at Vandenes/Andeleas home early in TGH. One of those texts could have had a physical description of him (shorter, blonde hair, distinctive facial scar) and she was able to put 2 and 2 together. "Hmm, there's a brand new lord here in Illian that appeared out of nowhere and I know for a fact he's not a real Illianer Lord...and hey, he matches that desciption of Sammael I read last year."

Also, is Rahvin using Illusion to change his appearance? He's described as taller than Rand, as muscular as Perrin, and as handsome as Galad. All of which could be true, I guess, but maybe he's using the Power to make himself a bit more appealing to Morgase?


No, that's the joke. He's basically what Galad would be when he gets older, works out a bunch and has no compunction at all about using his physical appearance to whore himself out to every single woman in sight. OF course, in his case, he doesnt even bother taking chances so he just compells them and then rapes them repeatedly.

Are Elayne and Morgase using code to talk to each other?



No. Elayne isn't because the letter is actually what it says it is...she just wants her mother to stop worrying/bothering the WT. Morgase isn't because she's literally too dazed and confused to do so due to Rahvin's compulsion. The Sheriam comment is her wishing she could escape to someone, in her mind, who could help her with advice the way "Sheriam" did when she was a Novice.

GonzoTheGreat
08-21-2014, 10:22 AM
No. Elayne isn't because the letter is actually what it says it is...she just wants her mother to stop worrying/bothering the WT. Morgase isn't because she's literally too dazed and confused to do so due to Rahvin's compulsion. The Sheriam comment is her wishing she could escape to someone, in her mind, who could help her with advice the way "Sheriam" did when she was a Novice.
Sheriam was an Accepted in New Spring. Which, admittedly, hadn't been written yet when TDR appeared.

Davian93
08-21-2014, 02:44 PM
Sheriam was an Accepted in New Spring. Which, admittedly, hadn't been written yet when TDR appeared.

Yes, I know...just as I'm aware this entire issue was a major whoopsy/retcon by RJ when he just had to make Sheriam an Accepted in New Spring.

rand
08-22-2014, 01:34 AM
Remember that she did a ton of crash research on all of the Forsaken during her time at Vandenes/Andeleas home early in TGH. One of those texts could have had a physical description of him (shorter, blonde hair, distinctive facial scar) and she was able to put 2 and 2 together. "Hmm, there's a brand new lord here in Illian that appeared out of nowhere and I know for a fact he's not a real Illianer Lord...and hey, he matches that desciption of Sammael I read last year."
That works for Sammael, but what about Be'lal later on? Loial's brief description of him is more than she already knew, implying she doesn't know what he looks like. And since Lan has to plan a way into the Stone later when she goes to kill Be'lal, it implies she hasn't been in the Stone yet and so hasn't seen him anyway.





Ok, I finished tDR.

I noticed that Perrin is bothered by the heat and humidity in Illian and Tear, but is described as being completely unphased by the heat in the Blight back in tEotW.

I thought this line was interesting from Moiraine:
tDR 50
"Remain close to the inn," she said after a moment. "Tear can be a dangerous city for those who do not know its ways. The Pattern can be torn, here." That last was soft, as if to herself. In a stronger voice she said, "Lan, let us see what we can discover without attracting attention. The rest of you, stay close to the inn!"

What does she mean, that the Pattern can be torn in Tear?


A little further on we get this from Perrin at the forge:
tDR 50
He held it near the end; hot metal gave off sparks, sometimes, and he had seen the scars on the hands of the smith from up at Roundhill, a careless fellow.

Where's Roundhill? I'm guessing it's supposed to be Watch Hill, unless blacksmiths from outside the Two Rivers commonly came in to show off their scars.

Moiraine says she learned balefire in the past year, and even specifically says she hadn't known it yet when she got everyone out of Emond's Field. So when did she learn it? She's absent for a good chunk of time in tGH: before the story starts she's away, then she leaves for Vandene and Adeleas' house, then she implies she wandered around Toman Head and Falme a bit before meeting up with Rand's group. Is it something she could have just learned in a book? Did she just do it by accident the first time, like Nynaeve and Rand? Did she somehow see someone do it?

I never thought to wonder this before, but how did Moiraine and Lan sneak into the Stone? All the doors are guarded, and I'm assuming they didn't scale the walls. I guess Moiraine could have blown a hole in the side or widen an arrow slit with the Power, but as she says before, she doesn't want to use the Power incase Be'lal or someone senses it and attacks.

The inn that Mat stays at is the White Crescent, and Perrin's is the Star. I know the crescent is on the flag of Tear, but white, crescents, and stars are all symbols of Lanfear.

I never noticed before that Egwene's dress color alternates between blue and green each time she's in TAR. Is this symbolic of a decision to join either the Blue or Green Ajah? I didn't think that was really much of a struggle for her, so it could be something else.

Who are all the people Perrin has to fight through to get to Faile in TAR? Just random Darkfriends that got sucked into the dream or something?


When Rand's battling Be'lal, he thinks this:
tDR 55
But was he truly the Dragon Reborn? If he raced to touch Callandor in truth, not in a dream, would his hand meet an invisible wall while Be'lal cut him down from behind?

This line implies that Rand tried to touch Callandor in TAR before, but is it saying that:
1) His hand always met the invisible wall in TAR, and he's hoping it won't now.
or
2) He was able to touch Callandor in TAR, and he's hoping he still can in real life.


Where did Lan go in the big battle? Mat says he saw him fighting somewhere. Did he really just let Moiraine attack one of the Forsaken by herself?

FWIW, the battle between Rand and Ishamael, with Rand chasing Ishamael and Ishamael trying desperately to change TAR around Rand, is one of my favorite fight scenes in the series.

And a couple random things from the glossary:

There are two different ways to pronounce Ogier: under "Ogier" it's pronounced "OH-gehr," but under "stedding" it's pronounced "OH-geer." I've always said it the second way.

The entry for "Forsaken" lists examples of Lanfear, Be'lal, Sammael, Asmodean, Rahvin, and Ishamael. As far as I can remember, these six, along with Aginor and Balthamel, are the only ones mentioned in the series up till this point. The significance is that they've all appeared in the book--even Rahvin, though he isn't identified--except for Asmodean. This could just be preparing the reader for when he pops up in the next book, but is it possible Asmodean is in tDR in disguise somewhere?

GonzoTheGreat
08-22-2014, 03:45 AM
I thought this line was interesting from Moiraine:

What does she mean, that the Pattern can be torn in Tear?It may be that there is a possibility the DR would be defeated and a Forsaken could get his hands on Callandor. If that happened, then the Pattern could conceivably be torn apart. Especially if it's Ishamael who gets the StinaS. Having a bunch of ta'veren close to each other may increase the odds of something like this happening.

A little further on we get this from Perrin at the forge:

Where's Roundhill? I'm guessing it's supposed to be Watch Hill, unless blacksmiths from outside the Two Rivers commonly came in to show off their scars.Obviously, Roundhill was torn from the Pattern while they were in Tear, which is why it isn't there anymore in the rest of the series.

The entry for "Forsaken" lists examples of Lanfear, Be'lal, Sammael, Asmodean, Rahvin, and Ishamael. As far as I can remember, these six, along with Aginor and Balthamel, are the only ones mentioned in the series up till this point. The significance is that they've all appeared in the book--even Rahvin, though he isn't identified--except for Asmodean. This could just be preparing the reader for when he pops up in the next book, but is it possible Asmodean is in tDR in disguise somewhere?Probably not, but it is an interesting possibility nonetheless.

Davian93
08-22-2014, 12:05 PM
This line implies that Rand tried to touch Callandor in TAR before, but is it saying that:
1) His hand always met the invisible wall in TAR, and he's hoping it won't now.
or
2) He was able to touch Callandor in TAR, and he's hoping he still can in real life.

Not all of his dreams occur in TAR...he also has regular dreams (that are likely planted by Ishy or Be'lal, the Pattern, etc) about holding Callandor.

Terez
08-22-2014, 04:00 PM
Where's Roundhill? I'm guessing it's supposed to be Watch Hill, unless blacksmiths from outside the Two Rivers commonly came in to show off their scars.
Good catch. Watch Hill is Roundhill in some of the early notes. Deven Ride was also Parry Coomb at some point.

Who are all the people Perrin has to fight through to get to Faile in TAR? Just random Darkfriends that got sucked into the dream or something?
Either that or constructs of the dream.

The entry for "Forsaken" lists examples of Lanfear, Be'lal, Sammael, Asmodean, Rahvin, and Ishamael. As far as I can remember, these six, along with Aginor and Balthamel, are the only ones mentioned in the series up till this point. The significance is that they've all appeared in the book--even Rahvin, though he isn't identified--except for Asmodean. This could just be preparing the reader for when he pops up in the next book, but is it possible Asmodean is in tDR in disguise somewhere?
It's doubtful. RJ dithered for a long time on the names of the Forsaken; he probably just added Asmodean there because he had decided it was a good one, and had maybe begun to craft a backstory for him. The others, he hadn't decided on yet, and there were some alternative names in the early notes, a couple of which were truly terrible.

Davian93
08-22-2014, 08:23 PM
Good catch. Watch Hill is Roundhill in some of the early notes. Deven Ride was also Parry Coomb at some point.

LOL...that's funny. I always just assumed it was the name of some random village north of the Tarendrelle...one of those villages that Egwene mentions in passing when she talks of leaving Emond's Field early on in tEotW. Never even occurred to me it was a typo.

rand
08-24-2014, 01:26 AM
I haven't read much the past couple days, but a few random thoughts about the tSR prologue (which is guess is really chapter 1):

When Min returns to the Tower she has all the viewings of Aes Sedai and Warders dying on the same day, and later she sees Gawyn with a bloody face and thinks this will happen on the same day as well. Which is all fine, this is Elaida's coup. But Min also sees viewings that shows several AS getting captured by the Seanchan, and from what Min tells Siuan she thinks all the AS deaths in one day will be due to a Seanchan attack. In reality these are of course two separate events. Does Min just subconsciously think that the Seanchan attacks must occur on the same day as all the AS and Warder deaths she knows will happen on the same day? Basically what I'm saying is, Min should have been able to separate the attacks that would occur all in one day (Elaida's coup) from the Seanchan attack. But she just lumps it all together despite her viewings presumably contradicting this.

Min also has a viewing of Gawyn with a heron marked sword. Does he ever get one (I forget)? Or does it his just have to do with his "relationship" with Rand? Or even his death while fighting Demandred?

A random thing I just realized...Lan doesn't have herons on his sword. It's apparently the traditional sword all Malkieri kings use, though, so I guess that's not unusual.

I don't remember everything we learn of the Sea Folk later on in the series, but I find it a little odd that they have a governor who lives in a manor house on Cantorin (the island Suorth takes over). I don't really picture them living in mansions.

Zombie Sammael
08-24-2014, 02:21 AM
Min's viewing might refer to the Seanchan attack. I don't recall if Gawyn was actually injured during that event, but it does seem likely that many sisters were killed as well as captured during that event, even with the Seanchan being careful not to injure marath'damane.

GonzoTheGreat
08-24-2014, 03:38 AM
When Min returns to the Tower she has all the viewings of Aes Sedai and Warders dying on the same day, and later she sees Gawyn with a bloody face and thinks this will happen on the same day as well. Which is all fine, this is Elaida's coup. But Min also sees viewings that shows several AS getting captured by the Seanchan, and from what Min tells Siuan she thinks all the AS deaths in one day will be due to a Seanchan attack. In reality these are of course two separate events. Does Min just subconsciously think that the Seanchan attacks must occur on the same day as all the AS and Warder deaths she knows will happen on the same day? Basically what I'm saying is, Min should have been able to separate the attacks that would occur all in one day (Elaida's coup) from the Seanchan attack. But she just lumps it all together despite her viewings presumably contradicting this.
One factor is probably that she doesn't know what day it will be. And then there's the fact that she needs to interpret things, and can make mistakes there (witness her viewing of Moiraine, which she thought was impossible for a long time).
She sees a couple of AS viewings relating to Elaida's coup, and notices "they'll be on the same day". She sees a couple of AS who will be captured by the Seanchan, and sees "that will happen on the same day". The thing which she fails to spot is that those need not be the same "same day".

Terez
08-24-2014, 03:40 AM
I haven't read much the past couple days, but a few random thoughts about the tSR prologue (which is guess is really chapter 1):

When Min returns to the Tower she has all the viewings of Aes Sedai and Warders dying on the same day, and later she sees Gawyn with a bloody face and thinks this will happen on the same day as well. Which is all fine, this is Elaida's coup. But Min also sees viewings that shows several AS getting captured by the Seanchan, and from what Min tells Siuan she thinks all the AS deaths in one day will be due to a Seanchan attack. In reality these are of course two separate events.
RJ often does this with Min's viewings. When she was actually seeing the viewings, she was very clear in her head about which events would happen on the same day, or at most one day apart. When she told Siuan about it, she said "most" of what she saw would happen on the same day, or at most one day apart. Beyond that, she goes into interpretation. She's clear about that, too, though; if she was certain that all those events would happen on the same day, then she would have been certain that they could expect a Seanchan attack, and she was not certain. When Siuan said that she feared it would be the Black Ajah, Min had no reason to contradict her because of her lack of certainty that the collaring of the one Aes Sedai and the attack would be the same event. This is how RJ was able to read his leaders astray without lying to them.

Does Min just subconsciously think that the Seanchan attacks must occur on the same day as all the AS and Warder deaths she knows will happen on the same day? Basically what I'm saying is, Min should have been able to separate the attacks that would occur all in one day (Elaida's coup) from the Seanchan attack. But she just lumps it all together despite her viewings presumably contradicting this.
Her viewings don't contradict the possibility that the attacks would occur on the same day. They just don't confirm it, leaving room for Min to interpret it that way. There's nothing to say that she should have been able to definitively separate the events, from what we know of her talent. Sometimes she can; sometimes she can't.

Min also has a viewing of Gawyn with a heron marked sword. Does he ever get one (I forget)? Or does it his just have to do with his "relationship" with Rand? Or even his death while fighting Demandred?
She couldn't tell if he was holding the sword or if it was threatening him, and he faced Hammar on the day of the attack. (He didn't take his sword.)

A random thing I just realized...Lan doesn't have herons on his sword. It's apparently the traditional sword all Malkieri kings use, though, so I guess that's not unusual.
Justice also had no herons. That's why we had to ask if Lan was officially a blademaster before he killed Toram Riatin. (Obviously he was good enough long before; it was just a matter of whether he'd had witnesses confirm it in the acceptable ways: one-on-one defeat of a blademaster, or approval by a panel of five blademasters).

I don't remember everything we learn of the Sea Folk later on in the series, but I find it a little odd that they have a governor who lives in a manor house on Cantorin (the island Suorth takes over). I don't really picture them living in mansions.
They don't really; it's considered a low and frustrating task for whoever is assigned to it, kind of like guard duty at an outpost in Siberia.

Terez
08-24-2014, 03:48 AM
She sees a couple of AS viewings relating to Elaida's coup, and notices "they'll be on the same day". She sees a couple of AS who will be captured by the Seanchan, and sees "that will happen on the same day".
She doesn't actually.

Blood and skull and halo faded away in the dance of images around the three, came and faded again. The petitioners stared in awe, seeing only three women who could touch the True Source and channel the One Power. No one but Min saw the rest. No one but Min knew those three women were going to die. All on the same day. [...]

Another Accepted came to replace one already there, and to Min's eyes bars floated in front of her apple-cheeked face, like a cage. Sheriam, the Mistress of Novices, looked into the hall – after one glance, Min kept her gaze on the stone under her feet; Sheriam knew her all too well – and the red-haired Aes Sedai's face seemed battered and bruised. It was only the viewing, of course, but Min still had to bite her lip to stifle a gasp. Sheriam, with her calm authority and sureness, was as indestructible as the Tower. Surely nothing could harm Sheriam. But something was going to.

An Aes Sedai unknown to Min, wearing the shawl of the Brown Ajah, accompanied a stout woman in finely woven red wool to the doors. The stout woman walked as lightly as a girl, face shining, almost laughing with pleasure. The Brown sister was smiling, too, but her aura faded like a guttering candle flame.

Death. Wounds, captivity, and death. To Min it might as well have been printed on a page. [...]

Few people walked the broad corridors that spiraled upward with their brightly colored floor tiles, and their wall hangings and golden lamp stands – the Tower had been built to hold far greater numbers than it did now – but nearly everyone she saw as she climbed higher wore an image or aura that spoke to her of violence and danger.

Warders hurried by with barely a glance for the two women, men who moved like hunting wolves, their swords only an afterthought to their deadliness, but they seemed to have bloody faces, or gaping wounds. Swords and spears danced about their heads, threatening. Their auras flashed wildly, flickered on the knife edge of death. She saw dead men walking, knew they would die on the same day as the Aes Sedai in the entry hall, or at most a day later. Even some of the servants, men and women with the Flame of Tar Valon on their breasts, hurrying about their work, bore signs of violence. An Aes Sedai glimpsed down a side hallway appeared to have chains in the air around her, and another, crossing the corridor ahead of Min and her guide, seemed for most of those few strides to wear a silver collar around her neck. Min's breath caught at that; she wanted to scream.
Those are the only times she thinks of events happening on the same day until her conversation with Siuan, which as I said above did not imply that the collaring would necessarily happen on the same day of the attack. That was just Min's fear. If she was certain, she wouldn't have suggested the Whitecloaks as a possible source of the attack.

rand
08-25-2014, 02:27 AM
When Mat's playing chop, the Ruler of Coins and Ruler of Winds aren't identified. Any idea who they are? Or is the deck different in every nation (ie, Illian wouldn't have a High Lord of Tear as the Ruler of Cups)?

Are Rand, Mat, and Perrin's cocks just coincidence, or did something actually make them crow to coincide with the bubbles of evil? To me, it seems unlikely anyone could hear a rooster outside from within the Stone, especially in Rand's case, where it's specifically noted the walls are soundproof (which is why the Maidens don't hear the attack).

Perrin's battle with the axe is symbolic of, well, his battle with his axe. And Rand's battle with himself seems symbolic of his struggle with his own identity. But what about Mat getting attacked by the cards? Is it supposed to be symbolic of his struggle with his new-found luck? It doesn't seem like much of battle for him. And I'm guessing the fact that he kills the Amyrlin, a High Lord, and the Queen of Andor isn't foreshadowing of anything...?

Before Berelain comes in, Rand has a dream. Right before he wakes up he sees this:
tDR 2
"Come back," Elayne called, lifting a slim arm to beckon. "Do you not deserve what you want for a change?"

He shifted his feet, wanting to move but unable to decide which way. What he wanted. The words sounded strange. What did he want? He raised a hand to his face, to wipe away what felt like sweat. Festering flesh almost obliterated the heron branded on his palm; white bone showed through red-edged gaps.

What's up with his hand? Presumably it's his right hand that he would use to wipe his face, so not the one that eventually gets blown off.


Not sure if I ever thought about this before, but why is there an arranged marriage set up between Rand and Egwene? This doesn't seem to necessarily be common practice in the Two Rivers. Mat and Perrin aren't told who they're supposed to marry.

I guess the statue of wolves attacking a stag is another preemptive asoiaf reference...

At the end of tDR Berelain arranged to have dinner with Rand, but in his PoV in tSR he thinks that he's never said more than two words to her. So either the dinner never happened or he wasn't very talkative during it.

In his fight with the reflections, shouldn't the fiery swords have done more to Rand then simply cut him? The fire isn't just a cool effect; in the part of tDR where Rand cuts off the woman's head and kills her guards, he says that a scabbard would do no good with this sword because it would "turn it to ash at a touch." That's pretty hot, but there's no mention of serious burns on Rand's body, not to mention the fact that the whole room should be on fire.

When Perrin and Faile run across Berelain right after the attack, Faile talks about Berelain and says she "...is not interested in hunting a bear, however fine his hide would look stretched on a wall. She hunts the sun." I guess the sun thing could be a double foreshadowing, of Berelain's brief rule in Cairhien and later her relationship with Galad (sunbursts on WCs).

On thing I just thought of...does Faile ever really meet Rand? When she leaves Perrin after they see Berelain, she mentions that she hadn't met Rand up to that point. Does she ever really meet him at another point in the series?

Aiel always call people by the their full names. I'm guessing it's nothing, but both Bain and Rhuarc call Perrin simply "Perrin."

GonzoTheGreat
08-25-2014, 03:48 AM
Perrin's battle with the axe is symbolic of, well, his battle with his axe. And Rand's battle with himself seems symbolic of his struggle with his own identity. But what about Mat getting attacked by the cards? Is it supposed to be symbolic of his struggle with his new-found luck? It doesn't seem like much of battle for him. And I'm guessing the fact that he kills the Amyrlin, a High Lord, and the Queen of Andor isn't foreshadowing of anything...?I would guess that Mat's battle is symbolic for his relationship with nobles.

What's up with his hand? Presumably it's his right hand that he would use to wipe his face, so not the one that eventually gets blown off.At a guess, that's a nightmare of suffering the consequences of the Taint.

At the end of tDR Berelain arranged to have dinner with Rand, but in his PoV in tSR he thinks that he's never said more than two words to her. So either the dinner never happened or he wasn't very talkative during it.Berelain arranged it by ordering Moiraine to inform Rand. That may not have worked particularly well, so odds are that Rand never even knew about this appointment.

In his fight with the reflections, shouldn't the fiery swords have done more to Rand then simply cut him? The fire isn't just a cool effect; in the part of tDR where Rand cuts off the woman's head and kills her guards, he says that a scabbard would do no good with this sword because it would "turn it to ash at a touch." That's pretty hot, but there's no mention of serious burns on Rand's body, not to mention the fact that the whole room should be on fire.The reflections were not quite as powerful as Rand, so I would guess that their swords were less effective as well.

On thing I just thought of...does Faile ever really meet Rand? When she leaves Perrin after they see Berelain, she mentions that she hadn't met Rand up to that point. Does she ever really meet him at another point in the series?She sort of meets him when she and Perrin arrive in Caemlyn, and she presumably meets him a couple of more times there too.

rand
08-26-2014, 01:07 AM
As far as I can remember, Joiya Byir is the first Gray AS named in the series. The only other times the Gray Ajah is mentioned are basically when it says "all Ajahs were present" or something and you just have to assume there were Grays hanging around. And at this point I still don't think we've been told the Grays are mediators (though the glossary says they are). Did it just take RJ a while to figure out what they should do? Admittedly, I feel like this is the weakest Ajah in terms of function. Presumably the Blues have to do plenty of mediating.

How was Amico stilled by Egwene at the end of tDR? Does it have to do with breaking a shield, like how Rand stilled the AS holding his shield at Dumai's Wells?

What was Liandrin supposed to be doing in Tear? Her plan seems to be using Egwene and co. to lure Rand there, but how would she have known Egwene and the others would be the ones to chase her? Though I guess Verin knew... Also, Rand never finds out that they're holding the three girls, making their function as bait somewhat useless.

I know Nynaeve's block keeps her from being able to channel, but it's also said to keep her from being able to see the weaves. As a channeler, can you not see weaves unless you're actually holding the OP? I don't remember this being the case, so why would Nynaeve's block prevent her from even seeing weaves?

Moiraine mentions that Rand has a copy of the Propheices in the Old Tongue and wonders what he could possibly be doing with it. Is it possible Rand occasionally has a LTT episode and is able to subconsciously translate parts of it, helping him decide to go to Rhuidean?

Moiraine also says asking the Finn questions touching on the Shadow would result in dire consequences. She specifically says, "Days ago I could have asked what Rand must do to survive and triumph, how he can defeat the Forsaken and the Dark One, how can learn to control the Power and hold off madness long enough to do what he must." But doesn't Rand do almost exactly that? So was Moiraine just mistaken, or did Rand suffer "dire consequences?" Or did his ta'veren stuff kick in and save him?

I asked a while ago if Elayne knew the Old Tongue, because she didn't seem to understand Mat when he was being Healed. But when she and Egwene try to teach Rand about channeling, there's this:
tSR 7
"What about the Old Tongue? Did you learn any of that in the White Tower?" Without waiting for an answer he began rooting through the volumes scattered across the carpet. There were more on the chairs, among the tumbled bedclothes. "I have a copy here...somewhere...of..."

"Rand." Egwene raised her voice. "Rand, I cannot read the Old Tongue." She shot a look at Elayne, warning her not to admit to any such knowledge. They had not come to translate the Prophecies of the Dragon for him. The sapphires in the Daughter-Heir's hair swayed as she nodded agreement. "We had other things to learn."

Granted, this is hardly conclusive evidence that Elayne knows the OT, but Egwene seems to believe Elayne could translate the Prophecies for Rand if needed. Though there's still a big difference between understanding another language written down and understanding Mat speak it out loud.


Rand tries to turn a handful of feathers into a flower for Elayne, and says he already did it once for the majhere. But can you use the OP to change an object from one thing to another? Or was he just using an Illusion and didn't know it?

I never noticed this before, but is Rand considering asking the Finnin Elayne actually loves him? Or just if there's a way he'd survive long enough to stay with her?:
tSR 8 - just quoting the relevant parts
What did Elayne expect? [...] He liked Min as much. Or thought he did. It was impossible to sort out his feelings for either of them. [...] He liked both women, but beyond that...He had very nearly spent his whole life mooning after Egwene; he was not about to dive into that again until he was sure. Sure of something. Sure. If Dealings with the Territory of Mayene was to be believed...


When Lanfear's in his room and Rand sees the Gray Man, he also mentions "his belt knife lay on a table by the bed, together with a half-made fox he had been carving." is the fox in any way significant or symbolic?

Is the bond between a Fade and his Trollocs similar to the Warder bond? Was observation of the Trolloc bond how AS figured out their own version in the first place?

GonzoTheGreat
08-26-2014, 02:59 AM
How was Amico stilled by Egwene at the end of tDR? Does it have to do with breaking a shield, like how Rand stilled the AS holding his shield at Dumai's Wells?No, no and yes.
In case that's not quite clear: it is not related to breaking the shield, neither with Amico nor at Dumai's Wells.

She knew it was possible to cut a woman off from the True Source even if she had already embraced saidar, but severing a weave already established had to be much harder than damming the flow before it began. She set the patterns of the weaving, readied them, making the threads of Spirit much stronger, this time, thicker and heavier, a denser weave with a cutting edge like a knife.What Egwene did here was intended to merely set a shield, but it had the result of cutting off Amico permanently; severing her. Rand did the same, only intentionally. Whether he or LTT was the one who intended the outcome he never really figured out.

What was Liandrin supposed to be doing in Tear? Her plan seems to be using Egwene and co. to lure Rand there, but how would she have known Egwene and the others would be the ones to chase her? Though I guess Verin knew... Also, Rand never finds out that they're holding the three girls, making their function as bait somewhat useless.Reread the start of chapter 55, and you'll see that Rand knew they were used as bait.

I know Nynaeve's block keeps her from being able to channel, but it's also said to keep her from being able to see the weaves. As a channeler, can you not see weaves unless you're actually holding the OP? I don't remember this being the case, so why would Nynaeve's block prevent her from even seeing weaves?Nynaeve's block is all about her denying to herself that she can channel, so it makes sense that it does not let her see the weaves either. If she could see them, that would be a clear sign that she was able to use them too.

Moiraine also says asking the Finn questions touching on the Shadow would result in dire consequences. She specifically says, "Days ago I could have asked what Rand must do to survive and triumph, how he can defeat the Forsaken and the Dark One, how can learn to control the Power and hold off madness long enough to do what he must." But doesn't Rand do almost exactly that? So was Moiraine just mistaken, or did Rand suffer "dire consequences?" Or did his ta'veren stuff kick in and save him?I think that his misinterpretation of the answers led him on the path towards Dark Rand, which was a pretty dire consequence.


Rand tries to turn a handful of feathers into a flower for Elayne, and says he already did it once for the majhere. But can you use the OP to change an object from one thing to another? Or was he just using an Illusion and didn't know it?He may have fused them together into a flower shape, like the plastic flowers that are available nowadays. It would be similar to what he did to the crown of Cairhien, after that broke when he tore it off Colavaere's head.

Is the bond between a Fade and his Trollocs similar to the Warder bond? Was observation of the Trolloc bond how AS figured out their own version in the first place?You are not the first to wonder about this. As far as I know, no one found evidence for or against it.

Davian93
08-26-2014, 10:57 AM
Granted, this is hardly conclusive evidence that Elayne knows the OT, but Egwene seems to believe Elayne could translate the Prophecies for Rand if needed. Though there's still a big difference between understanding another language written down and understanding Mat speak it out loud.


Its quite different to translate a page of writing than listen to an odd dialect of the same language that is being shouted loudly and very quickly. Elayne, due to her training as Daughter-Heir can likely at least read the Old Tongue and get the gist of it but hearing it is a bit different.

For example, I can read French for the most part or at least puzzle it out...I sure as hell cant speak it though outside of a few basic phrases. I have trouble understanding a French speaker too...unless they are speaking quite slowly and enunciating every word.

GonzoTheGreat
08-26-2014, 11:17 AM
Of course, Elayne, being a Daughter-Heir who knew she was falling in love with the Dragon Reborn may not have bothered to make any extra study of the OT while she was in the WT. Then again, maybe she did pay some extra attention to the Prophecies while she had the opportunity. Which seems more likely?

rand
08-27-2014, 01:11 AM
Egwene refuses to allow anyone to accompany her into TAR, and Nynaeve and Elayne seem to agree. But later on we find out they had Elayne test the two dream ter'angreal they got from the Black Ajah...

Back in tDR Perrin comes across Lanfear looking at papers in the wolf dream in some palace. The ceilings are painted like the sky with birds flying across it, which made me think of Ebou Dar. But Egwene's bedroom in the Stone seems to have a ceiling like this, so maybe Lanfear was going through papers there? It would make more sense considering it was in tDR.

I forgot there were more than the two access keys for the Choedan Kal (there's a broken one in the Panarch's Palace). What would happen if someone found another? Can two people channel through the CK at the same time with separate access keys?

Also, why does the access key seem familiar to Egwene? She didn't pass by the one in Cairhien. Is it just from a lecture in the WT or something?

While in TAR, Egwene mistakes the elephants skeleton for a boar and later mistakes the animal in the Waste for a boar. She even makes a joke about it. Is this supposed to be foreshadowing for her mistake about Gawyn (mistaking him as intelligent), since his symbol is a boar?

Amys says she sense evil in Tanchico: "This city is dying, eating itself. There is a darkness here, an evil. Worse than men can make. Or women." Is this really just the BA, as Egwene assumes. It seems a little dramatic even for Moghedien, though I'm guessing it refers to her presence there. The "dying" city "eating itself" almost sounds like Shadar Logoth.

Egwene and the others are shocked when Aviendha explains that two Aiel women can have the same husband, even though Bain and Chiad already told them two first-sisters can share a man back in tDR (where they had a similar reaction).

Faile doesn't seem to make any attempt to hide her name (the Bashere part, at least) from anyone, so does everyone but Perrin basically suspect who her Saldaean father really is?

In a flashback to the Trolloc attack, Mat remembers a Fade saying, "Time to die, Hornsounder." How did he know Mat blew the Horn? As far as I remember, the only DF that knows Mat blew the Horn is Verin...

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but does Min somehow have a weaker version of the power of the Finn that allows her to see parts of the Pattern? Like a genetic mutation or something?

Why do the Aelfinn give Mat three extra answers? It seems like they're desperate for him to leave, but they could have had the guards carry him out any time.

I forgot, do we still not know what Rand's third question was?

I do remember that one of Rand's questions concerned cleansing the taint. What did they tell him? Did they just say "use the Choedan Kal things," or did they give him a detailed description of how to do it?

Something that also occurred to me...if Rand had gone into the doorway in Rhuidean and asked them to cleanse the taint for him, would they have the power to do that (consequences for Rand aside)? Could he ask them to defeat the DO for him?

Do we ever get any indication of what Moiraine's questions were?

When Lan barges into the room and gets mad at Nynaeve for tricking him, Nynaeve makes a joke about using the Amyrlin's letters to make him dance, and Elayne remembers that that is what she said right after they got the letters from Siuan. But Elayne wasn't there for that meeting.

I never noticed before that by killing Taringail, Thom killed Moiraine's older brother. Well, half-brother. I guess she didn't mind...

Does Moiraine ever tell Thom the names of the BA sisters who gentled Owyn illegally? Or is he still left hanging by the end of aMoL? How does Moiraine know all the names anyway?

Moiraine's letter to Thom (the one she sends before she goes through the doorway with Lanfear) expresses doubt that Mat and Thom can actually free her. Yet she knows she'll marry Thom from Min's viewing, and even uses this as assurance that Thom will survive Tanchico. So she should know she'll be rescued at some point.

This is mentioned a lot in the middle part of the series, but why does the Blight retreat? Is it just the effects of the events at the Eye, or just the calm before the storm or something?

Do we ever find out what happened to the twelve AS and 1000 soldiers Siuan sent to recapture Taim?

Apparently Siuan tells Leanne about her conspiracy with Moiraine sometime between chapter 1 and chapter 17, because all of a sudden she seems to know everything.

Are there any theories as to who killed Sahra at the farm? Was it Alviarin, or just some irrelevant BA sister?

GonzoTheGreat
08-27-2014, 04:12 AM
Something that also occurred to me...if Rand had gone into the doorway in Rhuidean and asked them to cleanse the taint for him, would they have the power to do that (consequences for Rand aside)? Could he ask them to defeat the DO for him?
Oh yes, he could. He definitely could ask. They couldn't manage it, of course, but that is something else entirely.

It does seem that they tried:
Young Bull became Perrin, with hammer at the ready, crouching on the plain of fragmentary fighting, changing people. Careful, he thought to himself. You are a wolf but more a man. With a start, he realized that some of those impressions weren't completely human. He saw a couple that were distinctly snakelike in appearance, though they faded quickly.

Davian93
08-27-2014, 08:43 AM
I forgot there were more than the two access keys for the Choedan Kal (there's a broken one in the Panarch's Palace). What would happen if someone found another? Can two people channel through the CK at the same time with separate access keys?

No reason why not...hell, Asmo and Rand could both use the same key at the same time. No reason they couldn't both use separate keys to each draw power from it.

Also, why does the access key seem familiar to Egwene? She didn't pass by the one in Cairhien. Is it just from a lecture in the WT or something?


She is subconsciously recognizing it as a ter'angreal/angreal attuned to Saidar. Same way Rand found his fat man angreal. There's basically an "atraction" between the channeler and objects used to channel their side of the OP.

Faile doesn't seem to make any attempt to hide her name (the Bashere part, at least) from anyone, so does everyone but Perrin basically suspect who her Saldaean father really is?

Everyone who knows of Davram Bashere basically knows that she's either his daughter or closely related...so basically every noble she speaks to knows as Davram is one of the Great Captains and is quite famous as a result.

In a flashback to the Trolloc attack, Mat remembers a Fade saying, "Time to die, Hornsounder." How did he know Mat blew the Horn? As far as I remember, the only DF that knows Mat blew the Horn is Verin...


The shadow has its own prophecies and sources of information...and Ishy clearly knows which is which too.

I do remember that one of Rand's questions concerned cleansing the taint. What did they tell him? Did they just say "use the Choedan Kal things," or did they give him a detailed description of how to do it?

They tell him how but they dont specify using the Choedan Kal. If you'll recall, he originally hoped Callandor would be sufficient but had to give up that plan once Cadsuane explained how he couldn't safely use Callandor and direct the flows due to the wildness it induced.

Something that also occurred to me...if Rand had gone into the doorway in Rhuidean and asked them to cleanse the taint for him, would they have the power to do that (consequences for Rand aside)? Could he ask them to defeat the DO for him?


They probably could (of course not in the way he would think given the 'gifts' they gave Mat)...but the price would be enormously high. They'd probably just say no as he wouldn't possibly be able to pay whatever price they'd require.

rand
08-27-2014, 11:37 PM
She is subconsciously recognizing it as a ter'angreal/angreal attuned to Saidar. Same way Rand found his fat man angreal. There's basically an "atraction" between the channeler and objects used to channel their side of the OP.
I guess that's it. But Egwene definitely makes it seem as if it's just familiar to her, rather than attracting her (or actually it does both):
tSR 11
One thing actually seemed familiar, though she could not say why. Tucked into a corner of one of the cabinets, as if whoever put it there had been uncertain that it was worthy of display, lay the upper half of a broken figure carved from some shiny white stone, a woman holding a crystal sphere in one upraised hand, her face calm and dignified and full of wise authority. Whole, she would have been perhaps a foot tall. But why did she appear so familiar? She almost seemed to call to Egwene to pick her up.






When Nynaeve pretends to be an AS on the Sea Folk ship, she says she's of the Green Ajah. Why? Hasn't she been studying with the Yellows in the WT?

How is everyone surprised that Sea Folk women take their shirts off at sea? Even if mainland passengers on SF ships are rare, something like this should probably be common knowledge.

When Coine (the Sailmistress) explains about the Jendai Prophecy, she says this:
tSR 19
"He can wield the One Power, so I have heard, and he holds the Sword That Cannot Be Touched. The Aiel have come over the Dragonwall to his call; I have seen several in the streets, and it is said they fill the Stone. The Stone of Tear has fallen, and war breaks over the nations of the land. Those who once ruled have returned, and been driven back for the first time. Prophecy is being fulfilled."

The Seanchan being driven back "for the first time" implies they'll be driven back again. Does this just refer to Rand's campaign against them in tPoD? The Seanchan are never really "driven back" again in the sense they were at Falme.


When Rand shoves Callandor in the Heart and causes an earthquake, Coine and all the Sea Folk start running around like crazy. While they're still checking the boat over for damage, Elayne and Nynaeve notice Thom and Juilin. Then Coine comes over and explains that Juilin wants passage to wherever they're going. But it seems unlikely Coine would have stopped to talk with Thom and Juilin while her ship was in possible danger. And the fact that Juilin says he wanted passage to wherever Elayne and Nynaeve were going means he wasn't on the ship before all this happened.

Thom says he's never heard of the name Shara before, so it likely isn't common knowledge outside the Sea Folk. But later in the series (aMoL especially, I think) all of a sudden everyone knows the name Shara.

I know the Aes Sedai kind of suspect the windfinders can channel, but how do they manage to miss the enormous weaves they use to control the weather? I know they're out to sea, but the weave stretches to the horizon...

So does the "who draws it out shall follow after" prophecy just refer to Narishma taking the sword out of the Heart of the Stone?

I'm not sure this makes sense for anything, but that prophecy's beginning (Into the heart he thrusts his sword, / into the heart, to hold their hearts.) could also sort of apply to Rand stabbing Ishamael in the hear at the end of tGH.

This is probably mentioned later in tSR, but how do Lanfear and Asmo know that Rand goes to the Waste, and how they know exactly where to find him? Does Lanfear find out through TAR or entering Rand's dreams?

I'm still curious if the Seia Doon Aiel (Black Eyes) are somehow named for the Red Veils in the Town. As in, somehow the knowledge got leaked and centuries later the cruelest Aiel society is still named after them.

Rand describes the Portal Stone in Tear as being three spans tall (about 18 feet). If it had been standing upright, how would anyone have been able to see the stuff at the top?

Are any of the Portal Stone symbols given in the series actual symbols of the places they take you too? Like, the symbol that gets them to Rhuidean is a triangle pointing left with a lightning bolt in it. Which in a vague sort of way could refer to Rand (the lightning) and Mat (left-facing triangle = "sinister" foxes) in Rhuidean. But that's a pretty big stretch considering the Stone was made before even the AoL.

Davian93
08-28-2014, 08:01 AM
Does this just refer to Rand's campaign against them in tPoD? The Seanchan are never really "driven back" again in the sense they were at Falme.


To be fair, Rand pretty much kicks their arse all the way from the Illian/Altara border to the suburbs of Ebou Dar in tPoD. They consider a major defeat at the time (of course, so does Rand ironically...which is more a nod by RJ to the fog of war).

I know the Aes Sedai kind of suspect the windfinders can channel, but how do they manage to miss the enormous weaves they use to control the weather? I know they're out to sea, but the weave stretches to the horizon...

At sea level, the horizon is maybe 6-8 miles away...if you are on top of the mast, that might jump out to 10-15 miles or upwards of 20 if its a high mast. Once they're out to sea beyond the sight of land (the only place they will channel), no AS will ever see/sense it as its too far away.

This is probably mentioned later in tSR, but how do Lanfear and Asmo know that Rand goes to the Waste, and how they know exactly where to find him? Does Lanfear find out through TAR or entering Rand's dreams?

Probably a combination of TAR and the fact that Rand, being ta'veren can be tracked with his effect on the Pattern if one knows how. Ishy knew how to do that and Lanfear likely did too...considering she was pretty much an expert on sensing the Pattern (she was chosen for the Bore project for a reason after all).

Rand describes the Portal Stone in Tear as being three spans tall (about 18 feet). If it had been standing upright, how would anyone have been able to see the stuff at the top?


Some energetic fellow likely climbed it and took notes at some point or another...the same way historians did/do with things like Trajan's Column or the Egyptian Obelisks. Climbing gear did exist then afterall.

rand
08-29-2014, 02:35 PM
How does Lan know so much about the Aiel? He mentions that he fought them in the Aiel War, and obviously we know he really did. But how would he have learned random things like Wise Ones being protected from harm while traveling anywhere in the Waste? He also firmly believed there were no cities in the Waste before seeing Rhuidean. Which is probably a common belief, but without having seen the Waste for himself it seems like a weird thing for Lan to boldly claim.

When Rand meets the Wise Ones above Rhuidean and asks to enter, he says "By the right of blood, I ask leave to enter Rhuidean, for the honor of our ancestors and the memory of what was." How did Rand learn what the formal password was to enter Rhuidean? I'm guessing it wasn't from a book, and I doubt Rhuarc just told him. At first I thought he might have just made it up to sound fancy, but right after he says it Bair calls it an "ancient form."

We're repeatedly told that entering TAR in the flesh is evil, one of the most abominable things you can do, and something that will tear away your humanity. Yet Perrin does it all the time. I guess Slayer smells sort of inhuman, but that's after extensive time spent in TAR in the flesh. And unless there's someone who can smell that lack of humanity, there's really no difference between Slayer and anyone else in regards to there "humanity."

Does Mat specifically have to say "I want" or "I wish" in order for the Eelfinn to give him something? Becasue technically the first two "requests" he makes are, "Burn your bones to ash, answer me!" Is this just ignored because it's frivolous, or should the Eelfinn have set themselves on fire and answered Mat's question about the Daughter of the Nine Moons?

Which makes me think...do the Eelfinn have the same ability as the Aelfinn to answer questions? Like, if you wish that they answer a certain question? What if, after they refused to answer Mat's questions, he had said "I wish you would tell me who the Daughter of the Nines Moons is, etc." Could they answer him, or would they have to consult with the Aelfinn or something?

In the first vision Rand has in the glass columns, he sees the construction of Rhuidean. There are two ancient Aes Sedai there. Who are they, and where did they come from? There weren't AS following the Aiel caravan around in all the other visions.

The caravan of ter'angreal starts out at over 1,000 wagons, but by the end there are only a couple. What happened to everything else? Are we just to assume it was lost over the years, or did most of it end up in Tar Valon, Tear, Tanchico, etc?

It isn't clear during the visions, but does Rand even realize that the Way of the Leaf means Tinkers? I remember Perrin didn't have a clue what the Way was when he meets the Tinkers in tEotW, so I'm guessing Rand wouldn't either.

In one of the visions that takes place at the beginning of the Breaking (the one where Jonai sees Callandor and starts the journey to Rhuidean), Jonai's wife says "All will be well, all will be well, and all manner of things will be well." Which is almost the exact same thing the Windfinder Jorin says when Elayne promises not to tell the WT tower about her: "If it pleases the Light, all will be well. All will be well, and all will be well, and all manner of thing will be well, if it pleases the Light." Why do they use the same phrase? Was it just a common saying in the AoL that the Sea Folk still remember, or are the Sea Folk somehow related to the Aiel?

Okay, this is probably weird, but is Rand related to LTT? Assuming the people he follows in the visions of Rhuidean are his ancestors, Charn is the earliest we see. Charn is the somewhat crazy guy (at least his great-grandson thinks he is) who serves Mierin Sedai (Lanfear). He seems to remain loyal to her even when she becomes Lanfear, and he is eventually hung for it. So...is it possible Charn is Mierin's son with Lews Therin? I don't remember if we know much of anything regarding LTT and Lanfear's relationship, beyond the fact that it didn't end well. So is Rand his own grandpa, and is Lanfear (unknowingly) hitting on her great great great etc. grandson?

Why doesn't Rand notice the dragons on his arms after coming out of the columns? I know he has Mat and the dust monsters to worry about, but they're described as even being on the backs on his hands, right? Shouldn't he be able to see that plainly?

Rand and Mat were in Rhuidean for seven days. Does the dome of fog change time in Rhuidean, or did Rand and Mat each spend seven days in their respective ter'angreal?

Davian93
08-29-2014, 08:38 PM
When Rand meets the Wise Ones above Rhuidean and asks to enter, he says "By the right of blood, I ask leave to enter Rhuidean, for the honor of our ancestors and the memory of what was." How did Rand learn what the formal password was to enter Rhuidean? I'm guessing it wasn't from a book, and I doubt Rhuarc just told him. At first I thought he might have just made it up to sound fancy, but right after he says it Bair calls it an "ancient form."

It was very likely in one of the books he read in the Stone...thus why Bair mentioned that it was "an ancient form"...it was probably from a book that was a couple thousand years old.

Does Mat specifically have to say "I want" or "I wish" in order for the Eelfinn to give him something?

Yes...that is likely part of the Bargain they made with humanity in exchange for answers.

In the first vision Rand has in the glass columns, he sees the construction of Rhuidean. There are two ancient Aes Sedai there. Who are they, and where did they come from? There weren't AS following the Aiel caravan around in all the other visions.

They were likely two of the very last pre-Breaking AS that sent the Aiel off in the first place...and knew to have them set up Rhidean in preparation for Rand's eventual visit. They would have known the Aiel given the mission they originally gave them

The caravan of ter'angreal starts out at over 1,000 wagons, but by the end there are only a couple. What happened to everything else? Are we just to assume it was lost over the years, or did most of it end up in Tar Valon, Tear, Tanchico, etc?

Dead, robbed, killed, broke off, etc etc. With likely tiny portions of the original wagon train ending up in places like Tear, Tanchico, Ebou Dar, etc.

It isn't clear during the visions, but does Rand even realize that the Way of the Leaf means Tinkers? I remember Perrin didn't have a clue what the Way was when he meets the Tinkers in tEotW, so I'm guessing Rand wouldn't either.

He did a TON of reading...he probably was able to put two and two together. Also, even if he didn't, he was getting a graduates level course in being a King by Moiraine later on so he was likely able to put it together even if he didnt immediately realize it.

So is Rand his own grandpa, and is Lanfear (unknowingly) hitting on her great great great etc. grandson?

Highly, highly unlikely...especially given that neither LTT or Lanfear have Aiel coloring so genetically its highly unlikely and I'd imagine that if Lanfear had had a kid with him, that would have been mentioned.

Rand and Mat were in Rhuidean for seven days. Does the dome of fog change time in Rhuidean, or did Rand and Mat each spend seven days in their respective ter'angreal?

I would imagine that time works differently in the ter'angreal...if for no other reason than both would die after 3 days without any water.

GonzoTheGreat
08-30-2014, 04:05 AM
How does Lan know so much about the Aiel? He mentions that he fought them in the Aiel War, and obviously we know he really did. But how would he have learned random things like Wise Ones being protected from harm while traveling anywhere in the Waste? He also firmly believed there were no cities in the Waste before seeing Rhuidean. Which is probably a common belief, but without having seen the Waste for himself it seems like a weird thing for Lan to boldly claim.Lan fought Aiel, both in the Aiel War and later in Shienar. He probably was smart enough to try to learn a bit about this opponent. He may not have thought of asking Tinkers, but gleemen and traders could move through the Waste. They would have been able to tell there were no cities there (with the possible exception of Rhuidean, which they all knew to avoid).

In the first vision Rand has in the glass columns, he sees the construction of Rhuidean. There are two ancient Aes Sedai there. Who are they, and where did they come from? There weren't AS following the Aiel caravan around in all the other visions.They may have been two AS who were there because of some kind of prediction, like a Foretelling. But the construction of Rhuidean happened in the time of Hawkwing and the War of the Hundred Years, as there is a reference to his failed invasion of the Waste ("when Comran's greatfather Rhodric led the Aiel to kill the men in iron shirts who had crossed the Dragonwall").

In one of the visions that takes place at the beginning of the Breaking (the one where Jonai sees Callandor and starts the journey to Rhuidean), Jonai's wife says "All will be well, all will be well, and all manner of things will be well." Which is almost the exact same thing the Windfinder Jorin says when Elayne promises not to tell the WT tower about her: "If it pleases the Light, all will be well. All will be well, and all will be well, and all manner of thing will be well, if it pleases the Light." Why do they use the same phrase? Was it just a common saying in the AoL that the Sea Folk still remember, or are the Sea Folk somehow related to the Aiel?The Sea Folk may have picked it up from the Amayar, who were almost certainly another Aiel branch. Then again, it is indeed possible that it was a common AoL saying, or, more likely still, a saying that dates from the War of the Power, when "all being well" was something people fervently hoped for.

So...is it possible Charn is Mierin's son with Lews Therin?Extremely unlikely. First of all, there is no indication whatsoever that Mierin tried to use this to push any of LTT's buttons, and she surely would've had the sense to attempt such an approach. Second, LTT quite famously exterminated anyone who was even remotely related to him (hence the honorific "Kinslayer"); overlooking some of his direct descendants is not believable.

Davian93
08-30-2014, 12:01 PM
They may have been two AS who were there because of some kind of prediction, like a Foretelling. But the construction of Rhuidean happened in the time of Hawkwing and the War of the Hundred Years, as there is a reference to his failed invasion of the Waste ("when Comran's greatfather Rhodric led the Aiel to kill the men in iron shirts who had crossed the Dragonwall").

I highly doubt they took 2500 years to decide to build Rhuidean and select clan chiefs that way...perhaps it was another invasion? One that led to no one ever trying to attack the Aiel again until Hawkwing got all ballsy and tried?

GonzoTheGreat
08-31-2014, 03:27 AM
I highly doubt they took 2500 years to decide to build Rhuidean and select clan chiefs that way...perhaps it was another invasion? One that led to no one ever trying to attack the Aiel again until Hawkwing got all ballsy and tried?
Maybe. Then again, there are quite a lot of abandoned cities in desert regions, and they're nowhere near as well preserved as Rhuidean was if they are a couple of thousand years old and have been above ground for much of that time. So either the Aiel carried out frequent repairs (which does not seem to have been the case) or Rhuidean isn't as old as you think it is.

Weird Harold
08-31-2014, 05:44 AM
Maybe. Then again, there are quite a lot of abandoned cities in desert regions, and they're nowhere near as well preserved as Rhuidean was if they are a couple of thousand years old and have been above ground for much of that time. So either the Aiel carried out frequent repairs (which does not seem to have been the case) or Rhuidean isn't as old as you think it is.
You're forgetting the mist barrier that prevented Asmodean from entering through TAR and otherwise hid/protected Rhuidean from detection and/or casual invasion.

GonzoTheGreat
08-31-2014, 05:55 AM
That protects against random vandalism by bored youth, but it does not protect against sand storms, temperature differences (which can be fairly high in a desert climate), the occasional rain shower and earth quakes. If Rhuidean had been built right in the aftermath of the Breaking, then there would have been a significantly higher than "normal" number of earth quakes as a result of the settling down of tectonic plates and such in the first thousand years or more.
None of those things on its own would be very important in one single year, but if you pile on enough centuries than it does add up.

Marie Curie 7
08-31-2014, 09:00 AM
They may have been two AS who were there because of some kind of prediction, like a Foretelling. But the construction of Rhuidean happened in the time of Hawkwing and the War of the Hundred Years, as there is a reference to his failed invasion of the Waste ("when Comran's greatfather Rhodric led the Aiel to kill the men in iron shirts who had crossed the Dragonwall").


There are a number of things from the re-read questions that I've been meaning to comment on but haven't had time. This one is quick, though.

That wasn't the time of Hawkwing. It was "much earlier" (though no quantitation on that), per RJ:

Interview: Jun 16th, 1995
East of the Sun Con - Karl-Johan Norén (Paraphrased) (http://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=60#32)

Robert Jordan
The invasion of iron-clad men into the Aiel Waste as reflected on in the ancestor-memory ter'angreal he said did not refer to Artur Hawkwing, but to a much earlier event.

Weird Harold
08-31-2014, 10:20 AM
but it does not protect against sand storms, temperature differences (which can be fairly high in a desert climate), the occasional rain shower and earth quakes.

And you know this, How?

GonzoTheGreat
08-31-2014, 12:24 PM
And you know this, How?
When Rand and Mat first enter the city, it is unfinished and dusty, but nothing appears broken. If the dome provided full protection, then the city wouldn't have been dusty. If it had been left on itself for a long time, things would have started to break down. So the facts which we have supply us with (rather vague) upper and lower limits for when the city was build.

It doesn't tell us whether it was 300 years, 500 years, or 800 years before Rand and Mat came there, though the higher number seems less likely. But it does tell us that it wasn't very soon after the Breaking either.

For the other limit we have the book which Rand read. That tells us that 600 years ago a peddler tried to look at Rhuidean, and that in turn suggests very strongly that the city is older than that.

Combining those, I would guess that the peddler got his look at Rhuidean not all that long after the Jenn died out.
Do you have any evidence to suggest another dating?

Davian93
08-31-2014, 01:05 PM
Do you have any evidence to suggest another dating?

The interview quote that MC provided directly contradicts that...ie, the first invasion was long before Hawkwing. There's also the fact that the pillars give us a pretty solid genealogical history that is basically grandfather to grandson etc etc...giving us a rough estimate that way. Odds are the Jenn died out within a couple hundred years (at most) of the Aiel moving to the Waste.

The dome protected against 99% of the issues you mention and the dust there would be solely from inside the city, nothing more.

GonzoTheGreat
09-01-2014, 03:54 AM
The debate in the previous couple of posts on the construction of Rhuidean arose because I hadn't bothered to check the interview database. Now I did (after someone politely slapped me around the ears with it), and I found that I'd gone off on the wrong tangent. So I will rereply:
In the first vision Rand has in the glass columns, he sees the construction of Rhuidean. There are two ancient Aes Sedai there. Who are they, and where did they come from? There weren't AS following the Aiel caravan around in all the other visions.
The explicitly made assumption that there weren't AS traveling with the Jenn is wrong:
"The end of the world, for all I know," Garam replied. "I am not sure there is a way across." He hesitated. "The Jenn have Aes Sedai with them. Dozens, I have heard. Does it not make you uneasy traveling close to Aes Sedai? I have heard the world was different once, but they destroyed it."

The Aes Sedai made Rhodric very nervous, though he kept his face blank. They were only four, not dozens, but enough to make him remember stories that the Aiel had failed the Aes Sedai in some way that no one knew. The Aes Sedai must know; they had seldom left the Jenn's wagons in the year since their arrival, but when they did, they looked at the Aiel with sad eyes. Rhodric was not the only one who tried to avoid them.So there actually were four AS who accompanied the Jenn into the Waste, and two of those were probably still alive when Rhuidean was finished.

Kimon
09-01-2014, 02:48 PM
The debate in the previous couple of posts on the construction of Rhuidean arose because I hadn't bothered to check the interview database. Now I did (after someone politely slapped me around the ears with it), and I found that I'd gone off on the wrong tangent. So I will rereply:

The explicitly made assumption that there weren't AS traveling with the Jenn is wrong:
So there actually were four AS who accompanied the Jenn into the Waste, and two of those were probably still alive when Rhuidean was finished.

It would help if we knew exactly when the Aiel crossed the Dragonwall, nonetheless, using Rand's trip, we can make a decent guess as to a date beyond the Breaking for Mandein's entrance into Rhuidean and to the date of its construction. Mandein says that his greatfather was Comran, and that Comran's greatfather was Rhodric. Rhodric was amongst the Aiel that crossed the Dragonwall, and this was also the time of their debt to the Cairhienin for the water-sharing. Rhodric's greatfather was Jeordam - his timeline marked the formation of the Maidens of the Spear. Jeordam's father was Lewin, who took up a spear, marking the schism between the Aiel and Jenn Aiel. Lewin's greatfather was Adan, during whose timeline the Aiel and the Tinkers split. Adan's father was Jonai. Jonai was the one originally sent out by the Aes Sedai.

So, probably around 150 years after Jonai they cross the Dragonwall, and another 150 or so years after that is the construction of Rhuidean. Which begs another question. Is there any chance that those Aes Sedai that Mandein sees might have been the same that sent Jonai?

Terez
09-01-2014, 05:15 PM
It would help if we knew exactly when the Aiel crossed the Dragonwall, nonetheless, using Rand's trip, we can make a decent guess as to a date beyond the Breaking for Mandein's entrance into Rhuidean and to the date of its construction. Mandein says that his greatfather was Comran, and that Comran's greatfather was Rhodric. Rhodric was amongst the Aiel that crossed the Dragonwall, and this was also the time of their debt to the Cairhienin for the water-sharing. Rhodric's greatfather was Jeordam - his timeline marked the formation of the Maidens of the Spear. Jeordam's father was Lewin, who took up a spear, marking the schism between the Aiel and Jenn Aiel. Lewin's greatfather was Adan, during whose timeline the Aiel and the Tinkers split. Adan's father was Jonai. Jonai was the one originally sent out by the Aes Sedai.

So, probably around 150 years after Jonai they cross the Dragonwall, and another 150 or so years after that is the construction of Rhuidean. Which begs another question. Is there any chance that those Aes Sedai that Mandein sees might have been the same that sent Jonai?
RJ said that none of the Aes Sedai who were alive for the Strike were alive when the Breaking ended.

I did a rough timeline on this some years ago, based on given ages and other deliberately planted timeline clues. My estimate is that it was well over 200 years between Jonai's chronologically first scene and the time they crossed the Dragonwall.

The Breaking lasted somewhere between 239-344 years, and Jonai's earliest scene could have been as early as 70 BY (Breaking Years, which I made up). He was 63 years old and in the prime of his life, so lifespans were still long, but he hadn't been born yet on the day of the Strike and his father was only 16 years old.

My guess is that it was closer to 100 BY, maybe later but not much later than 120. That makes the minimum about 120 years from Jonai's earliest scene to the end of the Breaking, and a maximum of about 275 years.

Rhodric's scene is roughly 90 AB, based on the reference to building Tar Valon, and this is before they have crossed the Dragonwall. The decision to build Tar Valon was in 47 AB, and construction began in 98 AB, and was completed in 202, but Rhodric's greatfather Jeordam is old and white-haired before they cross the Dragonwall, and Jeordam only heard about the Breaking, the ground heaving, from the old ones. He had to have been at least 60 years old when they crossed the Dragonwall, so it was an absolute minimum of 180 years between Jonai's earliest scene and the crossing, possibly well over 300 years.

The guess of 150 years between Rhodric's scene and Mandein's is probably closer to the truth, but that would have been after 200 AB.

Davian93
09-01-2014, 06:56 PM
RJ said that none of the Aes Sedai who were alive for the Strike were alive when the Breaking ended.

I 100% believe you but do you have a link for that quote...I'm sure you do as quotemistress and all.

Again, I'm not asking out of doubt but so that I can read more on it myself. I remember that answer now that you mention it but I had totally forgotten it until now.

Terez
09-01-2014, 09:05 PM
I can't find it, hopefully because I'm using the wrong search terms, but I remember the logic was that if any of them had survived, then none of the common weaves should have been lost.

Kimon
09-01-2014, 09:24 PM
I can't find it, hopefully because I'm using the wrong search terms, but I remember the logic was that if any of them had survived, then none of the common weaves should have been lost.

What had initially caught my attention was that quote that Gonzo provided that referred to them looking at Mandein and the others with "sad eyes". That comment made me look back and try to estimate an approximate span of time between Jonai and Mandein again, since that sadness would seem to indicate that they might personally remembered what the Aiel had been. Still, I suppose they could have just been old enough to have still known tales of the Aiel, or even have simply learned it from the Jenn - the same quote Gonzo provided indicated that they had been amongst the Jenn for a year. In any case, I assume their presence must have been connected to instructions left by Solinda's posse even if they were not themselves of Solinda's coven.

Terez
09-01-2014, 09:50 PM
By the way, RJ confirmed that those specific Aes Sedai were not from the Age of Legends twice, long before he confirmed no Aes Sedai survived the Breaking at all. I have often wondered whether that was a retcon because of the logic of the lost weaves. The way those Aes Sedai were described would lead you to believe they were near the max lifespan, but they had already begun using the Oath Rod by then, if not all three Oaths which is necessary for the "ageless" look.

Marie Curie 7
09-01-2014, 11:02 PM
I can't find it, hopefully because I'm using the wrong search terms, but I remember the logic was that if any of them had survived, then none of the common weaves should have been lost.

One place it exists is in the BWB.


BWB
Chapter 9

Given the exceedingly long lifespan of Aes Sedai during the Age of Legends, it would seem possible that at least some Aes Sedai who were alive at the beginning of the Breaking, even some who lived when the Bore was drilled, were still living when the Breaking ended. Over the centuries there has been considerable speculation, some rather wild, about this. However, the increasingly violent nature of the times, from the drilling of the Bore to the beginning of the War of the Shadow, the war itself, and finally the centuries of the Breaking, suggest that no Aes Sedai alive at the end of the Breaking had survived that entire span, or even a significant portion of it. The one possible exception may be the Aes Sedai who were involved in the building of Rhuidean, in the Aiel Waste. Tantalizing rumors claim that Aiel Wise Ones and clan chiefs may know something about this, but unless they can be induced to be more forthcoming - and so far, they are rigidly closemouthed - little is likely to be learned beyond the fact that Aes Sedai were involved.

By the first century AB, letters reliably attributed to Aes Sedai already speak of "forgotten Talents" and "lost abilities," and bemoan the "vast knowledge of the Power that is gone and may be centuries in the rediscovery." If any Aes Sedai had survived the entire span, or even Aes Sedai who had been raised in the early years of the Breaking, there would have been few or no lost abilities and no need to "rediscover" them.

Terez
09-01-2014, 11:12 PM
I believe that's the only place it exists. I considered it was there when I was looking for it, but I felt more confident it was an interview quote, and I was on the road and trying to search from my phone until I got home. :D I don't have the BWB on my phone. And now since I am home I will link the two quotes I mentioned in my last post:

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=98#2

MICHAEL MARTIN
My first question: "Was the Aes Sedai who initiated the Pact of Rhuidean from the Age of Legends?" (From The Shadow Rising).

ROBERT JORDAN
(Pause) "No." (Pause) "No, she was not from the Age of Legends."

MICHAEL MARTIN
My reason for asking had to do with the Oath Rod theory about agelessness and such.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=83#32

JOHN FROM FRONT ROYAL, VIRGINIA
Mr. Jordan, were either of the Aes Sedai seen at Rhuidean in The Shadow Rising Deindre, the Aes Sedai from the beginning of the Breaking? Is Deindre responsible for Foretelling the entire Prophecies of the Dragon? Thank you for taking time to respond to our questions this evening.

ROBERT JORDAN
No, she wasn't, and you're welcome.

Terez
09-01-2014, 11:16 PM
Now that I look at those quotes they're open to interpretation, even alongside the BWB quote, despite the logic of the lost weaves, which is good logic but not foolproof logic.

1) In the first quote, RJ might have seen a loophole in the wording "the Aes Sedai who initiated the pact".

2) In the second quote, he might have ignored the first question.

3) In the BWB quote, there are hints that the Aes Sedai in Rhuidean were the only Aes Sedai who lived that long, but no one else knew about them, and the logic of lost weaves didn't necessarily apply to them since they were traveling with the Jenn.

rand
09-01-2014, 11:35 PM
Huh. For some reason I forgot (even though I just read it) the AS show up when the caravan's back in Cairhien. I guess they just caught up to the Jenn after a while?

FWIW regarding the timeline, Rand says "If the ancestors of the Cairhienin had not allowed the Aiel to have water three thousand years ago..." Which probably isn't very accurate.



Anyway, I've been working 10-12 hours a day over the past few days, so I haven't had time to read much or post. But I got some stuff in:

Going back to the visions in Rhuidean, what did Mandein see? Was his first vision just of himself from ten minutes earlier?

I forget if this is ever elaborated on, but why do the wolves completely clear out of the TR when Slayer shows up? I know he can kill them permanently in TAR, but you'd think with their philosophy regarding Trollocs and Fades they'd just band together and try to kill the guy.

This is probably just a stupid idea, but does Faile know Luc from earlier? His Hunter of the Horn persona is presumably bs, but he claims to have been looking for it in Manetheren, the same as Faile (who seemed to think it was a secret idea of hers). When he first sees Faile, Luc gives her a smile that's "familiar and decidedly warm." Perrin thinks he's just hitting on her, and Faile later tells Perrin she encouraged it to make him feel jealous. But obviously she must be covering up for more sinister relations with Lord Luc... :p

Why do Verin and Alanna go to the Two Rivers in the first place? Are they looking for Rand? I'm guessing Verin doesn't really care about all the channelers in the TR. But unless they knew of Fain's plan to use the WCs to lure Rand there, did they just go in the off chance Rand would get homesick and go back?

It's also weird that Verin and Alanna go to Watch Hill, and are apparently fine with staying there until the WCs push them south to Emond's Field.

So I guess the abundance of channelers, ta'veren, and wolfbrothers (well, one) in the Two Rivers is all caused by inbreeding and the Old Blood being "strong"?

I know I've accused Verin of doing pretty much everything so far, but did she have a hand in killing Alanna's Warder Owein? Getting shot to death in an open field by WCs just seems like a really dumb mistake for a Warder to make. Maybe Verin needed Alanna off-balance and tripped Owein or held him with the OP or something?

Do we ever really find out what Fain is doing with (or getting from) the Fade he tortures?

Based on Verin's reaction to Perrin's hammer, I'm guessing she knows about the Wolf King part of the Prophecies. Oddly enough, Moiraine says earlier in tSR (I think. Maybe tDR somewhere) that the Prophecies don't mention Rand's companions (Mat and Perrin). Who did she think the Wolf King was then? Just Rand? Even after she knew about Perrin's wolf stuff?

Luc says his Borderland house is Chiendelna. Is this significant in any way, or just a random name he gives? It seems to reference dogs ("chien") (ie wolves), but maybe it's just nothing.

Should we assume that Verin knows exactly (more or less) who Luc is?

When Perrin goes into the WC camp to save everyone, he asks Verin to have her Warder Tomas go with them, and she refuses, saying "Do you think one more would make a difference? Besides, I have other uses for him." Does Verin mean that Tomas, as a fellow fake DF, is integral to her overall plan and thus she can't risk him for something as "trivial" as this?

How did Rand plan on catching Asmo? Did he leave the Choedan Kal in Rhuidean as bait, (somehow) knowing that Asmo would go after them? Or did he just get lucky that everything worked out as it did?

Is Rand's destruction of the Aiel and the "remnant of a remnant" thing still to come after aMoL, like the stuff that Aviendha sees in Rhuidean? Or did all that just never really happen in aMoL?

When Egwene meets Elayne for the first time after they part (and before Amys wakes her up and starts yelling at her), is this the first instance of the unseen eyes in TAR? I know people have said it's the Heroes. Is this assumed to be true, or is there any other answer?

Terez
09-02-2014, 12:51 AM
FWIW regarding the timeline, Rand says "If the ancestors of the Cairhienin had not allowed the Aiel to have water three thousand years ago..." Which probably isn't very accurate.
It's pretty close.

Going back to the visions in Rhuidean, what did Mandein see? Was his first vision just of himself from ten minutes earlier?
Probably not. It was important for them to see that the Aiel once followed the Way of the Leaf and how their change came about, and it was important to remember what their mission was, to keep the things safe from channeling men. The Aes Sedai apparently originally thought that they might rebuild the Hall of the Servants in the Waste, but they probably broke with the Aes Sedai who were building Tar Valon. I wouldn't be surprised, actually, if the Mandein scene is roughly concurrent with the completion of the construction in 202.

I forget if this is ever elaborated on, but why do the wolves completely clear out of the TR when Slayer shows up? I know he can kill them permanently in TAR, but you'd think with their philosophy regarding Trollocs and Fades they'd just band together and try to kill the guy.
He was making Darkhounds. Every death was a weapon in his hands.

Why do Verin and Alanna go to the Two Rivers in the first place? Are they looking for Rand? I'm guessing Verin doesn't really care about all the channelers in the TR. But unless they knew of Fain's plan to use the WCs to lure Rand there, did they just go in the off chance Rand would get homesick and go back?
They were looking for information about Rand and hoping to tie him to them with the girls he knew from back home. That played out in LOC when he saw them and Alanna bonded him. I think Verin does care about the recruits on a purely Aes Sedai level, and of course Alanna does too. They just care more about Rand.

Do we ever really find out what Fain is doing with (or getting from) the Fade he tortures?
Not explicitly, though we see him again later and know that Fain has gotten information from him at least. I always suspected it had something to do with the attack on Rand in KOD at Algarin's manor.

Based on Verin's reaction to Perrin's hammer, I'm guessing she knows about the Wolf King part of the Prophecies. Oddly enough, Moiraine says earlier in tSR (I think. Maybe tDR somewhere) that the Prophecies don't mention Rand's companions (Mat and Perrin). Who did she think the Wolf King was then? Just Rand? Even after she knew about Perrin's wolf stuff?
That verse was quoted by a Seanchan when it was finally quoted, so I'm not sure it's known on Randland proper. Verin could know it from Ishamael.

Luc says his Borderland house is Chiendelna. Is this significant in any way, or just a random name he gives? It seems to reference dogs ("chien") (ie wolves), but maybe it's just nothing.
Good point on the name; the reference seems to have mostly been significant because it alludes to Isam and the begrudged throne.

Should we assume that Verin knows exactly (more or less) who Luc is?
Luc, probably. Isam, not yet.

How did Rand plan on catching Asmo? Did he leave the Choedan Kal in Rhuidean as bait, (somehow) knowing that Asmo would go after them? Or did he just get lucky that everything worked out as it did?
He left the Choedan Kal in Rhuidean because he was going to go back for them; I don't think he had a specific plan to lure Asmodean there, and he likely would have been reluctant to risk that kind of battle and would have sought a more mundane one, with his fat man.

Is Rand's destruction of the Aiel and the "remnant of a remnant" thing still to come after aMoL, like the stuff that Aviendha sees in Rhuidean? Or did all that just never really happen in aMoL?
It's probably endlessly interpretable, since the Aiel are already a remnant of a remnant in Mandein's time. (Da'shain - less the Tinkers - less the Jenn.)

When Egwene meets Elayne for the first time after they part (and before Amys wakes her up and starts yelling at her), is this the first instance of the unseen eyes in TAR? I know people have said it's the Heroes. Is this assumed to be true, or is there any other answer?
No explicit answer. It could be anyone who knows how to stay hidden.

GonzoTheGreat
09-02-2014, 03:58 AM
Huh. For some reason I forgot (even though I just read it) the AS show up when the caravan's back in Cairhien. I guess they just caught up to the Jenn after a while?In another vision, from even earlier, it is mentioned that the Aiel occasionally meet AS. Those went another way after meeting them, these stayed with the Jenn.

Going back to the visions in Rhuidean, what did Mandein see? Was his first vision just of himself from ten minutes earlier?LOL
I think Terez is right about him not seeing himself, but it is a neat idea nonetheless.

Why do Verin and Alanna go to the Two Rivers in the first place? Are they looking for Rand? I'm guessing Verin doesn't really care about all the channelers in the TR. But unless they knew of Fain's plan to use the WCs to lure Rand there, did they just go in the off chance Rand would get homesick and go back?No AS had been in the TR for a long time, possibly not since the Trolloc Wars. Now a pair of very strong channelers and three ta'veren come from the same village. For a Brown, that is an interesting phenomenon, thus giving Verin a plausible reason for curiosity. For a Green, it could be a source of power to be harnessed in preparation for TG, which is supposedly what Greens do.
Plus, if they find other girls who can be trained, that would be a major plus for their standing in the WT.

At the time, Alanna did not yet know that Rand was the DR, and Verin wasn't going to tell her.
So I guess the abundance of channelers, ta'veren, and wolfbrothers (well, one) in the Two Rivers is all caused by inbreeding and the Old Blood being "strong"?Useful plot device, that, isn't it?

Based on Verin's reaction to Perrin's hammer, I'm guessing she knows about the Wolf King part of the Prophecies. Oddly enough, Moiraine says earlier in tSR (I think. Maybe tDR somewhere) that the Prophecies don't mention Rand's companions (Mat and Perrin). Who did she think the Wolf King was then? Just Rand? Even after she knew about Perrin's wolf stuff?I think that most AS, including Moiraine, had been ignoring the Wolf King bit as incomprehensible. Moiraine could have put things together, but this seems to have been something that she overlooked. She was a bit preoccupied at the time, so it is understandable.

When Egwene meets Elayne for the first time after they part (and before Amys wakes her up and starts yelling at her), is this the first instance of the unseen eyes in TAR? I know people have said it's the Heroes. Is this assumed to be true, or is there any other answer?Another obvious answer, and one that is probably at least partially right too, is that it would be the Forsaken and Slayer. Those too had reason to be spying on whatever they could find in TAR.

And, for all we know, some Sharans or people from the Land of the Madmen also had this ability. If Dreamwalking had been known in Seanchan then we would have heard about it, I think, so it seems we can exclude those.

Terez
09-02-2014, 01:01 PM
At the time, Alanna did not yet know that Rand was the DR, and Verin wasn't going to tell her.
She had, however, already shown an unhealthy interest in Rand. It would be naive to think they didn't assign themselves this mission with other motives in mind. That doesn't mean the mission wasn't important or that they didn't appreciate it on those merits.

GonzoTheGreat
09-03-2014, 04:09 AM
She had, however, already shown an unhealthy interest in Rand. It would be naive to think they didn't assign themselves this mission with other motives in mind. That doesn't mean the mission wasn't important or that they didn't appreciate it on those merits.
Of course, that interest could have been a simple "I want another Warder, having a ta'veren would be nice". She was a Green, after all. And probably smart enough not to fancy Mat as a Warder.

rand
09-04-2014, 12:20 AM
It's implied that the peddlers with Lanfear and Asmo must have done something to avoid running into any Aiel in the Waste. Did they just Travel directly to the middle of the Waste, or did Lanfear and Asmo kill any Aiel they happened to run across?

When Kadere and the others show up, Rhuarc says they're lucky they didn't keep going as they would have reached Rhuidean. Why would he expect Kadere to know what Rhuidean is? Ingtar and Verin didn't seem to know about it back in tGH. Though FWIW, Kadere apparently does know what it is based on his reaction.

Kadere tells Rand that "Belief and knowledge pave the road to greatness. Knowledge is perhaps the most valuable of all. We all seek the coin of knowledge." And the glossary describes Kadere as "A man with knowledge to sell, if he can find the right price." Is Kadere trying to rat out Lanfear and Asmo in exchange for protection from the DR?

Presumably Mat's medallion and ashanderei are objects the Eelfinn collected from people who didn't escape Sindhol. Is it possible either belonged to Birgitte and/or Gaidal Cain?

During the Trolloc attack at Imre Stand Mat's medallion grows cold during the battle. Who's channeling at him? I'm guessing it would have to be either Lanfear or Asmo, but why? Are they trying to protect him or kill him or what?

Also, what's up with the Trollocs at Imre Stand? Why did they attack the small settlement there weeks earlier? And who ordered them to attack Rand's party? Isn't it Lanfear's plan to have Asmo teach Rand? Why try to kill him? But if not her or Asmo, who else knows where Rand is at this point?

When Liandrin is talking to some of the other BA sisters at their palace in Tanchico, Asne Zeramene says (about Rand): "If there is a way to control him, I would not mind binding him to me. He is a good-looking young man, from the little I saw." Where would she have seen him before. The only possibility is that she might have caught a glimpse of him in the distance as he ran through the halls of the Stone.

So who's ordering Liandrin and the others at this point? Liandrin clearly has no more idea what they're searching for than Nynaeve and Elayne do, so what did the Forsaken tell them? That there's something in Tanchico that might control Rand, but good luck finding it? Did whoever ordered them know about the male a'dam and just didn't bother describing it to Liandrin? That would be pretty pointless. But if the Forsaken didn't know exactly what/where the controlling device was, how they know it was in Tanchico to begin with?

I don't think I ever noticed this before from Egeanin's PoV with the Seeker in her house:
tSR 38
Most Seekers for Truth bore the ravens as well as the tower, but not even someone who dared steal a Seeker's plaque would have himself marked so. To wear the ravens was to be the property of the Imperial family. There was an old story of a fool young lord and lady who had themselves tattooed while drunk, some three hundred years gone. When the then Empress learned of it, she had them brought to the Court of the Nine Moons and set to scrubbing floors. This fellow might be one of their descendants. The mark of the raven was forever.

So the raven tattoos are somehow passed on through generations? Does that mean they're OP tattoos, similar to the Rhuidean dragons? Is the guy in the Band (forget his name) a descendant of these people?

Why does Domon instantly recognize Nynaeve and Elayne, who he spent like ten minutes with (he spent most of his time in Falme with Min)? On top of that, he doesn't recognize Thom until well after he's reacquainted with Nynaeve and Elayne, even though he knew him for much longer.

I forget, does Elayne ever re-remember that Thom was Morgase's lover?

GonzoTheGreat
09-04-2014, 03:53 AM
It's implied that the peddlers with Lanfear and Asmo must have done something to avoid running into any Aiel in the Waste. Did they just Travel directly to the middle of the Waste, or did Lanfear and Asmo kill any Aiel they happened to run across?Yes. Probably yes to the first, that they Traveled there, but since we're not sure, a generic yes is the best available answer.

When Kadere and the others show up, Rhuarc says they're lucky they didn't keep going as they would have reached Rhuidean. Why would he expect Kadere to know what Rhuidean is? Ingtar and Verin didn't seem to know about it back in tGH. Though FWIW, Kadere apparently does know what it is based on his reaction.I got the impression that peddlers and such get a briefing which says "don't go near Rhuidean, we really mean it" and not much more. So he would have known that it was a bad idea, but not where specifically it was.
Usually peddlers get an escort, and thus can be steered away from it.

I wonder how the Aiel kept the Tinkers away from it. In hindsight, I wish I'd asked RJ that one.

Presumably Mat's medallion and ashanderei are objects the Eelfinn collected from people who didn't escape Sindhol. Is it possible either belonged to Birgitte and/or Gaidal Cain?In the case of the medallion: possible, though there is no real reason to think so.
In the case of the ashanderei: no way. Gaidal Cain is famous for always using two swords, so a spear like thing would be totally out of character for him. As for Birgitte, I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader.

So the raven tattoos are somehow passed on through generations? Does that mean they're OP tattoos, similar to the Rhuidean dragons? Is the guy in the Band (forget his name) a descendant of these people?I suspect that it is much simpler: children of such slaves are tattood too, so that they are marked as property from a young age.

I forget, does Elayne ever re-remember that Thom was Morgase's lover?Read and find out. Read on and find out!

rand
09-05-2014, 12:51 PM
Read and find out. Read on and find out!
Yeah, I have to do that for a lot of things lol. It's surprising how much I forgot about the series.





Where does Alanna keep disappearing to in Emond's Field? Loial informs Perrin (through Faile) that she's vanished twice since they arrived in Emond's Field. And later on when Perrin shows up with the arrow in his ribs, it takes Alanna what feels like forever to show up--she clearly wasn't just hanging around the village somewhere. I know she sent Ihvon out to look for Perrin, but I can't picture Alanna herself marching off into the woods alone in search of him.

Why doesn't Perrin think Luc looks a little like Rand? At least, I don't think he ever does. But later when Egwene (or Elayne or someone) sees him in TAR she thinks he looks like Rand's evil uncle.

When Luc sees the Aiel, for what I think is the first time, he does this: "Luc frowned at Gaul thoughfully, perhaps disapprovingly; the Aielman stared back stony-faced." I never noticed this before. I'm guessing it has something to do with Slayer's connection with the Town and his killing/capturing of Aiel heading that way, as he doesn't seem to look at Bain and Chiad at all. Why would he be disapproving, though? I forget, is it ever mentioned if Luc knew Tigraine went to the Waste?

Why do Ihvon and Tomas know how to build catapults? I know they're Warders and all, but was the construction of a catapult common knowledge that any competent soldier would have known?

Verin says that Alanna suggested the wolfhead banner. This seems unlikely considering Verin is the one who more than likely knows about Perrin's connection with wolves. So did Verin compel Alanna into making the suggestion, as she may have compelled Alanna into bonding Rand later on?

I know it's kind of a joke, but do the Two River's people really have enough weapons "rusting in their attics" to fill the entire commonroom of the Winespring Inn?

When Loial's talking about destroying a Waygate, he mentions that a circle of thirteen was able to do it, but when only nine tried they "'damaged the Gate in such a way that the Aes Sedai were pulled into--'" And then he cuts off when everyone stares at him: "Everyone was staring at him, even Verin and the Aiel." So first, what did they AS get pulled into? Just the Waygate? Another dimension? A spinoff book? Second, why is Verin surprised here? Was she unaware that a Waygate could be destroyed, or is she also curious as to what happened to the nine AS that tried to do it?

At one point Tomas calls a Fade a "Faceless." Is this just a typo for Eyeless? I don't remember them being called Faceless before. I mean, they still have faces...

For some reason I always think of tSR as being heavily focused on Nyneave and Elayne in Tanchico, but they actually only have about 5 or 6 chapters there. Comparatively, Perrin has about 15 in the TR.





Ok, here's a theory-ish thing I thought of. Though it's probably been brought up before.

So I guess Mat's luck comes from the dagger and it's connection to Mordeth. This seems to be confirmed when Slayer says "The Shadow consume me if that man [Fain] does not have more luck than the White Tower." My question now is why Mordeth is particularly lucky. Was he ta'veren? It's possible that he's simply a sneaky, persuasive guy, but being ta'veren would help explain how he was able to so heavily influence the king of Aridhol, Barthanes, the Fade in tGH, Pedron Niall, Dain, Elaida, etc. Maybe this would also explain Mat's luck a little more--he also has the affect of another ta'veren in his body, in some way (which I admittedly don't know) allowing all his luck to be good instead of 50/50 like most ta'veren.

Davian93
09-05-2014, 02:20 PM
Where does Alanna keep disappearing to in Emond's Field? Loial informs Perrin (through Faile) that she's vanished twice since they arrived in Emond's Field. And later on when Perrin shows up with the arrow in his ribs, it takes Alanna what feels like forever to show up--she clearly wasn't just hanging around the village somewhere. I know she sent Ihvon out to look for Perrin, but I can't picture Alanna herself marching off into the woods alone in search of him.

No idea...maybe she's simply grieving? She did just lose a Warder after all and that's a devastating event.

Why doesn't Perrin think Luc looks a little like Rand? At least, I don't think he ever does. But later when Egwene (or Elayne or someone) sees him in TAR she thinks he looks like Rand's evil uncle.

I can't recall off the top of my head but maybe Perrin only ever sees him as Isam and thus there is no resemblance?

Why do Ihvon and Tomas know how to build catapults? I know they're Warders and all, but was the construction of a catapult common knowledge that any competent soldier would have known?

Warders aren't common soldiers, they are the best of the best and Warder School is like the West Point of soldiering, its not just learning the sword. They learn all the rest. Building siege equipment and the engineering associated with them would be part of that. I wonder how Gawyn did in the trig classes he'd need to take for the aiming part?

Verin says that Alanna suggested the wolfhead banner. This seems unlikely considering Verin is the one who more than likely knows about Perrin's connection with wolves. So did Verin compel Alanna into making the suggestion, as she may have compelled Alanna into bonding Rand later on?

Its Verin so its probably a half-truth at best.

So first, what did they AS get pulled into? Just the Waygate? Another dimension?

RAFO. Seriously though...probably the dimension that the Waygates exist in which is likely some form or another of TAR given the issues with time/distance that exist there. I doubt they survived the process.

At one point Tomas calls a Fade a "Faceless." Is this just a typo for Eyeless? I don't remember them being called Faceless before. I mean, they still have faces...

Probably a typo...or maybe its just another iteration of the same naming conventions.

For some reason I always think of tSR as being heavily focused on Nyneave and Elayne in Tanchico, but they actually only have about 5 or 6 chapters there. Comparatively, Perrin has about 15 in the TR.

I would imagine this is because those Tanchico chapters can be a chore to read at best given that its about Elayne & Nynaeve.

My question now is why Mordeth is particularly lucky. Was he ta'veren?

Likely because he is outside the Pattern to an extent (I believe RJ used the phrase "sidestepped the Pattern" to describe Fain/Mordeth) that it does not control him...thus he can manipulate things unlike anyone else (other than the DO who is also outside the pattern).

Weird Harold
09-05-2014, 04:40 PM
For some reason I always think of tSR as being heavily focused on Nyneave and Elayne in Tanchico, but they actually only have about 5 or 6 chapters there. Comparatively, Perrin has about 15 in the TR.
I would imagine this is because those Tanchico chapters can be a chore to read at best given that its about Elayne & Nynaeve.

Or it could be that the supergirls get three times as much accomplished in their five chapters as Perrin does in his fifteen?

Davian93
09-05-2014, 04:52 PM
Or it could be that the supergirls get three times as much accomplished in their five chapters as Perrin does in his fifteen?

To be fair, those are pretty much the only chapters in the entire series where Perrin is actually interesting.

He gets a ton done in them.

GonzoTheGreat
09-06-2014, 04:20 AM
Why doesn't Perrin think Luc looks a little like Rand? At least, I don't think he ever does. But later when Egwene (or Elayne or someone) sees him in TAR she thinks he looks like Rand's evil uncle.Perrin starts out with a bit of prejudice against Lord Luc before he's even seen him, so he would not be too likely to associate the fellow with one of his friends.
As for Egwene ... if I comment on that, it might get moved to the Egwene thread. :D

Verin says that Alanna suggested the wolfhead banner. This seems unlikely considering Verin is the one who more than likely knows about Perrin's connection with wolves. So did Verin compel Alanna into making the suggestion, as she may have compelled Alanna into bonding Rand later on?Another possibility is that Verin was not being truthful. She is BA, after all.

At one point Tomas calls a Fade a "Faceless." Is this just a typo for Eyeless? I don't remember them being called Faceless before. I mean, they still have faces...It's probably yet another regional name for them. At another point in the same book (right after saving Perrin from a Halfman), Ihvon also uses the term "Faceless".

So I guess Mat's luck comes from the dagger and it's connection to Mordeth. This seems to be confirmed when Slayer says "The Shadow consume me if that man [Fain] does not have more luck than the White Tower." My question now is why Mordeth is particularly lucky. Was he ta'veren? It's possible that he's simply a sneaky, persuasive guy, but being ta'veren would help explain how he was able to so heavily influence the king of Aridhol, Barthanes, the Fade in tGH, Pedron Niall, Dain, Elaida, etc. Maybe this would also explain Mat's luck a little more--he also has the affect of another ta'veren in his body, in some way (which I admittedly don't know) allowing all his luck to be good instead of 50/50 like most ta'veren.
We know there's a ter'angreal that sort of reproduces ta'veren effects. We also know that Mordeth at some point was searching for any kind of power that he could use against the DO. Maybe one of the things he found or did to himself was get some twisted form of ta'verenness.

rand
09-10-2014, 01:46 PM
I haven't been able to reach much lately, but here are a few things.



Why don't Elayne and Nynaeve recognize Egeanin's Seanchan accent? Elayne thinks it sounds different and wonders where it's from, but you'd think they'd be haunted, like Egwene, but anything associated with the Seanchan. Something like that accent should definately stick in their memories for a long time.

When Elayne and Nynaeve mention Bayle Domon's name, Egeanin almost has a heart attack in front of them. But earlier from Egeanin's PoV we know that she already knows Bayle is in Tanchico, and she's already trying to avoid him.

Right before Siuan is deposed she thinks this:
tSR 47
Danelle, on the other hand, the young Brown sister who was supposed to be watching Master Jovarin, the mason, was most likely letting herself be distracted by the books the fellow kept finding for her. That was the only way to explain her failure to question the number of workmen Jovarin claimed to have hired, with the first shipments of stone from Kandor just arriving in Northharbor. He could rebiuld the entire library with that many men. Danelle was simply too dreamy, even for a Brown.

First of all, why would any Brown sister need some random mason guy to find books for her? A second, of course--why would Mesaana? Assuming Jovarin really is finding books for her.


Siuan is clearly puzzled about how Masema, a Shienaran in Ghealdan, could possibly know Rand's name. Doesn't she know that Rand was traveling with a whole bunch of Shienaran soldiers for a while? I mean, she could wonder why the guy was in Ghealdan, but the fact that a Shienaran knows Rand's name shouldn't be very surprising.

Not that it seems to have mattered to Elaida, but was it "legal" to murder Siuan's Warder before arresting her? Is it customary to murder the Warder of AS who are to be stillied, or Amyrlin's who are to be desposed?

I know he's wearing a scarf and all, but how does no one notice that Mat has a huge scar around his neck?

Why are gleemen allowed in the Waste? I know why Tinkers would be, albeit grudgingly. And peddlers are useful. But why gleemen? Do the Aiel really value entertainment that much?

Are Cairhienin gleemen allowed in the Waste?

GonzoTheGreat
09-11-2014, 04:02 AM
First of all, why would any Brown sister need some random mason guy to find books for her? A second, of course--why would Mesaana? Assuming Jovarin really is finding books for her.Having someone else do your work is generally a lot easier than doing it yourself, so a Brown letting a mason fetch her books wouldn't be necessarily out of character. As for why such a mason might do that: Siuan comes up with a fairly good reason. And as to the last: I don't think it was books at all. Instead, I think that Jovarin was a DF who was getting orders and bringing information to Mesaana.

Siuan is clearly puzzled about how Masema, a Shienaran in Ghealdan, could possibly know Rand's name. Doesn't she know that Rand was traveling with a whole bunch of Shienaran soldiers for a while? I mean, she could wonder why the guy was in Ghealdan, but the fact that a Shienaran knows Rand's name shouldn't be very surprising.Siuan may have believed that all those Shienarans had gone home. Admittedly, that would have been a somewhat dodgy assumption, especially since she knew there had been a couple of ta'veren involved.

Not that it seems to have mattered to Elaida, but was it "legal" to murder Siuan's Warder before arresting her? Is it customary to murder the Warder of AS who are to be stillied, or Amyrlin's who are to be desposed?It was probably "differently legal", which is also good enough for loads of our own vigilantes.

Why are gleemen allowed in the Waste? I know why Tinkers would be, albeit grudgingly. And peddlers are useful. But why gleemen? Do the Aiel really value entertainment that much?Well, they don't sing themselves, unless they're fighting, so if they want a song, they have to find some non-Aiel to do it for them. And they don't want to ask the Lost Ones.

Are Cairhienin gleemen allowed in the Waste?I think that with a gleeman, the nation of origin isn't particularly important.
For example, I wouldn't even know what country Thom Merrilin came from, originally.

rand
09-15-2014, 11:18 PM
I finished tSR a couple days ago and started tFoH. I'll post stuff from the end of tSR for now and get to the tFoH stuff some other time.

Moiraine's guest gift to Lian is scents from Arad Doman. Where did she get these from? Did she go through there on her way to Toman Head back in tGH? Did she somehow learn balefire by witnessing Graendal or Lanfear do it there?

How do the Wise Ones anticipate the Shadowspawn attack? They make some offhand comments about it being an evil night or something, but how do they sense this? It reminds me of Raen somehow sensing the attacking ravens on tEotW.

Has Elayne seriously not realized that Thom is more than a senile old man at this point? She dismisses him out of hand and treats him like crap time and again, yet he continues to prove her wrong. And she continues to ignore all that. I mean, instead of starting a riot and killing half of Tanchico, they likely could have told Thom about the bracelets and seal and sent him into the palace to get them with no problems.

Not sure I ever noticed this before, even though it was fairly obvious these two would meet up at some point:
tSR 52
She realized she had not told Egwene about Egeanin. Perhaps best not to stir up Egwene's memories of her captivity. Nynaeve could remember all too well the other woman's nightmares for weeks after she was freed, waking up screaming that she would not be chained. Much the best to let it lie. It was not as if Egwene need ever meet the Seanchan woman.



When Nynave is using Need to find the thing that's dangerous to Rand, the first thing she sees in the Panarch's Palace is the Seal. Why doesn't she just assume that this is the "weapon?" The BA could blackmail Rand with it or something, threatening to break it.

When Elayne frees Amathera from Temaile, Amathera says Temaile used to bring her into TAR and drop her from a tower before waking her up inches from the ground. Back when Egwene was initially scouting Tanchico, she saw the exact same thing happen to a man. Is this just coincidence, or was the BA torturing someone else? Any idea who he is/was?

Why doesn't Elayne just kill Temaile. Isn't that what Siuan sent them to do in the first place? They're supposed to be hunting the BA sisters, not following them around partially disrupting their plans every now and again.

For that matter, why on earth doesn't Nynaeve kill Moghedien? She's so concerned over the bracelets, which might pose a distant threat to Rand, that she's willing to let one of the Forsaken run free, who will certainly be a threat to Rand. I mean, helping Rand is the whole reason they're there in the first place.

So when was the domination band/e've/sad bracelets/whatever they're called made? It seems like it was long before a'dam were invented. Was it originally created during the Breaking to control the insane male Aes Sedai?

How did Moghedien find out that the bracelets were in a museum in Tanchico? She doesn't seem to be working with Liandrin and the others at the moment, so who told them the bracelet was there?

Domon says he's going to dump the bracelets into the water near Aile Somera. Egeanin apparently agrees to go with him. But Aile Somera is where Cantorin and Suroth's headquarters are. Egeanin must know this, so is she intentionally trying to sabotage to mission to get rid of the bracelets?

Faile tells Perrin that Queen Tenobia has never led men in battle. I forget, but doesn't she in aMoL?

The Deven Riders sent word to Emond's Field that they were coming to help long before the Trollocs actually attacked. So how did they know when the attack would come? Were they just waiting out in the woods until the Trollocs attacked so they could take them from behind?

How does Fain know his dagger's in the WT? Can he really tell from that far away the exact building it's in?

Does Fain actually go to Caemlyn before TV, as he tells his Whitecloaks, and we just never see it "on screen?" It seems like he wants to rally Morgase against the Two Rivers, so should we assume he left Caemlyn right away after realizing a Forsaken, and not Morgase, was ruling Caemlyn?

When Rand make stairs in the Skimming place to chase Asmo, he does this:
tSR 58
With the thought, the gray stone under his foot began to fade, and all the others ahead shimmered. Desperately he concentrated on them, gray stone and real. Real! The shimmering stopped. They were not so plain now, put polished, the edges carved in a fancy border he thought he recalled seeing somewhere before.

Is this just a random comment? Where did Rand see these stairs before?


FWIW, Asmo puts up a better fight against Rand that almost any other Forsaken.

It's mentioned that there are stained glass portraits of people in some of the windows in Rhuidean. Who would these be of?

Does Asmo naturally look like Natael? Ie, is he ever disguised in the series?

Terez
09-16-2014, 03:09 AM
When Rand make stairs in the Skimming place to chase Asmo, he does this:

Is this just a random comment? Where did Rand see these stairs before?
The Lews Therin memories began to surface at the beginning of this book, in ch. 9 specifically. RJ likes to drop those bits in dream-space, sleeping or otherwise. They're often random and small like this one.

Does Asmo naturally look like Natael? Ie, is he ever disguised in the series?
No disguise. Rand doesn't begin to remember their faces until later. The memories really start flying in the next book, and it's possible that his being around Asmodean all the time has something to do with it.

rand
09-17-2014, 03:05 PM
Here's some stuff from the beginning of tFoH:


I'm pretty sure Evanellein and Andaya are the first named Grays we meet (though I kinda remember Evanellein is Black...?). I think it's also the first time the Gray's function is mentioned outside of the glossary.

What's up with the Shadow Coast? It's barely ever mentioned from what I remember, except for someone saying the Ogier aren't very hospitible there or something. But "Shadow" Coast seems like a pretty ominous name for a place we really never see/hear about.

At one point in the prologue Elaida recalls Siuan telling her, while being tortured, that the Forsaken were free. But how did Siuan know this? I remember thinking it was odd that Moiraine distinctly did NOT tell Siuan about Aginor and Balthamel back in Fal Dara. Unless Moiraine sent Siuan word about Sammael or Be'lal, or Siuan somehow figured out that Rand really battled Ishamael at Falme, how would she know the Forsaken are free?

In Fain's PoV he still seems to want the Horn almost as much as the dagger. Why? Does he still think he can buy influence with someone with it? Is he aware that Mat already blew it?

Fain seems to think Alviarin is able to sense what he really is. Is this kind of an early stage of Fain being to sense another DF and he just doesn't realize it?

Fain tells Elaida that in order to control Rand she must "tie a string to one of the few he trusts." Does Elaida just ignore this? I don't really remember her trying to buy any of Rand's friends or allies.

Lanfear seems to be living in a white palace (both at the end of tSR and the beginning of tFoH). Any idea where this is?

At the Forsaken meeting in Caemlyn, Lanfear says, "First, someone else is trying to control him [Rand]. Perhaps to kill. I suspect Moghedien or Demandred." Does this just refer to Moggy's plan to get the sad bracelets or something else?

When Min sees the angry family of the barn they burned down, she thinks that "She had seen a crowd with this mood once--at an execution." Presumably this would have been in Baerlon. Are executions common there, or is this someone specific she saw killed?

Well, I've been keeping an eye out for palaces with sky and bird paintings on the ceilings to try to tell where Lanfear was when Perrin saw her in TAR in tDR. So far the Stone of Tear, the Palace in Caemlyn, and (from what I remember) the Tarasin Palace all have these, lol. One thing that's always sort of annoyed me about RJ's description is the palaces. Each and every one of them is described as almost identical, almost word for word. They're all a "mass of domes and towers" or something like that, and the interior hallways all have wall niches and hangings--it's all basically the same no matter what palace you're in.

What happened to the guy who half fell through the Eelfinn doorway in Rhuidean? I remember he's kind of loopy afterward and eventually runs away. But what happened to his head? Would the same have happened to Mat if he'd left before getting his wishes? Also, isn't his name Herid? There's no possibility he's the same as Herid Fel, is there?

I find it interesting that the clan chief Bruan is described as being more loyal to Rand than even Rhuarc. Seems a little suspicious, but I don't think anything ever comes of it. Do we ever see any DF Aiel aside from Melindhra?

Rand calls Moiraine "little sister," and it's clearly a LTT memory. But what does it mean? Is it something LTT, as Tamyrlin, would have called lesser AS? I remember Someshta called Loial little brother...

At one point Rand mentions Asmo's harp:
tFoH 2
Jasin Nateal, as he called himself here, lay half-sprawled on cushions against one of the windowless walls, softly playing the harp perched on his knee, its upper arm carved and gilded to resemble the creatures on Rand's forearms. Dragons, the Aiel called them. Rand had only suspicions where Natael had gotten the thing.

What are Rand's suspicions? Where did the harp come from?


When Rand has his first LTT memory of Ilyena, he doesn't recognize the name. Yet when Moiraine, Siuan, and Verin are talking about the Dark Prophecy in tGH, they mention Ilyena, so she's definately known to be LTT's wife. Is Rand just ignorant of this fact? Or is he just being purposefully ignorant of it?

Davian93
09-17-2014, 05:02 PM
When Rand has his first LTT memory of Ilyena, he doesn't recognize the name. Yet when Moiraine, Siuan, and Verin are talking about the Dark Prophecy in tGH, they mention Ilyena, so she's definately known to be LTT's wife. Is Rand just ignorant of this fact? Or is he just being purposefully ignorant of it?

I'd imagine that that fact isn't very well known outside of scholar-circles. The average Randlander probably isn't really aware of LTT's family other than "LTT killed his entire family". Thus, its not surprising that all 3 AS know the name but it wouldn't be expected for Rand to know it.

Davian93
09-17-2014, 05:21 PM
They're all a "mass of domes and towers" or something like that, and the interior hallways all have wall niches and hangings--it's all basically the same no matter what palace you're in.

Well...

http://www.tourist-information-uk.com/uploads/images/attraction_images/359/xlarge/buckinghampalace03.jpg

http://cache.graphicslib.viator.com/graphicslib/media/50/winter-palace-st-petersburg-photo_1466704-770tall.jpg

http://www.sofkazinovieff.com/cms/wp-content/uploads/blenheim-palace.gif

http://i2.stay.com/images/venue/124/77/e145e9ad/royal-palace-of-madrid-palacio-real.jpg

http://compacttravels.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/oslo-royal-palace.jpg

to be fair, they all do tend to look fairly similar in style.

BTW, that's Buckingham, the Winter Palace, Blenheim, Madrid, and Oslo for reference.

GonzoTheGreat
09-18-2014, 04:18 AM
I'm pretty sure Evanellein and Andaya are the first named Grays we meet (though I kinda remember Evanellein is Black...?). I think it's also the first time the Gray's function is mentioned outside of the glossary.In TSR (which you've supposedly read) it is mentioned that Joiya Byir is (or was, whichever applies) Gray Ajah.

What's up with the Shadow Coast? It's barely ever mentioned from what I remember, except for someone saying the Ogier aren't very hospitible there or something. But "Shadow" Coast seems like a pretty ominous name for a place we really never see/hear about.It's a red herring; a fairly big one too at that.

At one point in the prologue Elaida recalls Siuan telling her, while being tortured, that the Forsaken were free. But how did Siuan know this? I remember thinking it was odd that Moiraine distinctly did NOT tell Siuan about Aginor and Balthamel back in Fal Dara. Unless Moiraine sent Siuan word about Sammael or Be'lal, or Siuan somehow figured out that Rand really battled Ishamael at Falme, how would she know the Forsaken are free?Perhaps Min told her. Min knew from Lanfear that at least Lanfear and Ishamael were free (see their meeting in TGH for this), so it isn't too unreasonable to think that the others would have been free as well.

In Fain's PoV he still seems to want the Horn almost as much as the dagger. Why? Does he still think he can buy influence with someone with it? Is he aware that Mat already blew it?Power was an obsession for Mordeth, and when it comes to obsessions Fain doesn't seem too discriminating.

Well, I've been keeping an eye out for palaces with sky and bird paintings on the ceilings to try to tell where Lanfear was when Perrin saw her in TAR in tDR. So far the Stone of Tear, the Palace in Caemlyn, and (from what I remember) the Tarasin Palace all have these, lol. One thing that's always sort of annoyed me about RJ's description is the palaces. Each and every one of them is described as almost identical, almost word for word. They're all a "mass of domes and towers" or something like that, and the interior hallways all have wall niches and hangings--it's all basically the same no matter what palace you're in.Fashion. Once one palace is acknowledged as "the most magnificent ever", all other rulers want one like that, only even more so. Thus, their architects add more domes and more towers to structures that had already started out fairly similar for the same reason 300 years earlier.

What happened to the guy who half fell through the Eelfinn doorway in Rhuidean? I remember he's kind of loopy afterward and eventually runs away. But what happened to his head? Would the same have happened to Mat if he'd left before getting his wishes?Probably not.
With that doorway, there are a couple of issues that wouldn't have affected an ordinary visitor.
First, there's the issue of the different "speed of time". If you pass through in a proper way, then you will be shielded from that. If you're half in and half out and then are dragged out again, the shielding may not work as well. So this fellow's sense of time would get a serious hit.
Second, there is the "you can only pass through it once in and once out" thing. Half of this guy did that, the other half didn't, so he can and can't go in there again. I don't know what that does to someone, and it is not something I would be eager to try first hand.

I find it interesting that the clan chief Bruan is described as being more loyal to Rand than even Rhuarc. Seems a little suspicious, but I don't think anything ever comes of it. Do we ever see any DF Aiel aside from Melindhra?There are the Red Veils. Apart from them, not noticeably, no.

When Rand has his first LTT memory of Ilyena, he doesn't recognize the name. Yet when Moiraine, Siuan, and Verin are talking about the Dark Prophecy in tGH, they mention Ilyena, so she's definately known to be LTT's wife. Is Rand just ignorant of this fact? Or is he just being purposefully ignorant of it?
Maybe LTT's pronounciation was sufficiently different to make the name unrecognisable to Rand, even though Rand was aware of her name from the stories.
A similar case would be that of Mary Magdalena, where the second part of that name is often pronounced as "Maudlin" in English speaking places. If you're only familiar with "Mary Maudlin", then hearing about a "Miriam Magdalini" (the eta may have been pronounced as an 'i' in Greek) might not ring a bell.

rand
09-18-2014, 10:36 PM
Yeah, I know there's precedence for palaces looking the same. It's just from a creativity standpoint, I would have expected more from RJ. I know they're different stories and all, but Westeros has Winterfell, the Red Keep, the Twins, Pyke, Castle Black, etc. All of which are described extremely differently from one another. It's not a big deal; just a little thing I wish RJ could have done a little differently.



A few more things from tFoH:

Rand's room in Rhuidean is described as being fairly strange. It's pretty small, possibly a servant's room (as Rand thinks), but has a really tall ceiling. There are no windows, but there's a fireplace with a mosaic of vines around it. My thought was, could this room have been built for Someshta? When Rand and co. meet him in tEotW he says he visited Avendesora 2,000 previously (though that may be a mistake), so it's possible I guess. Someshta might even prefer a room with no windows in the middle of a desert with little vegetation.

Rand seems clueless as to how to cleanse the taint despite the Aelfinn having told him how to do so in the previous book. I know Rand doesn't know what their answer means, but he should know that there is an answer to this question.

I forget, do Darkhounds always melt and reform when killed? I don't think the one Perrin shot in tDR did. Also, why can't they reform on the ancient symbol of the AS? Shouldn't it just be symbolic? Or is that mosaic in Rhuidean more significant than just a mundane mosaic?

Moiraine moves around a lot in the opening Rand chapters. First Rand sees her in the plaza with Kadere, then she appears in the doorway a few seconds later. She goes back to the plaza, then makes her way to the sweat tent before Egwene can get there. Then she shows up literally seconds after the Darkhound attack. Finally, she almost keeps pace with a 6'6"-ish Rand as he runs at full speed to Mat's room.

Asmo claims he can't teach Rand Traveling because he's not strong enough. But Sorilea was able to show the weave to Cadsuane, so I guess this is just something Asmo was able to keep back from Rand.

This isn't important or anything really, but I noticed it mentions that LTT and Lanfear knew each other since before they could channel (or at least since they started learning to channel): "He pushed away a sudden memory of this woman in his arms, both of them young and just learning what they could do with the power." Nothing important as far as I know. Just something I never noticed before.

GonzoTheGreat
09-19-2014, 03:34 AM
Rand's room in Rhuidean is described as being fairly strange. It's pretty small, possibly a servant's room (as Rand thinks), but has a really tall ceiling. There are no windows, but there's a fireplace with a mosaic of vines around it. My thought was, could this room have been built for Someshta? When Rand and co. meet him in tEotW he says he visited Avendesora 2,000 previously (though that may be a mistake), so it's possible I guess. Someshta might even prefer a room with no windows in the middle of a desert with little vegetation.Someshta is taller than Loial, who is taller than Rand. So a room that would be pretty small for Rand would be downright cramped for Someshta, I think.

I forget, do Darkhounds always melt and reform when killed? I don't think the one Perrin shot in tDR did. Also, why can't they reform on the ancient symbol of the AS? Shouldn't it just be symbolic? Or is that mosaic in Rhuidean more significant than just a mundane mosaic?If you kill them in the right way, they stay dead. If you don't, you get a second chance.

Moiraine moves around a lot in the opening Rand chapters. First Rand sees her in the plaza with Kadere, then she appears in the doorway a few seconds later. She goes back to the plaza, then makes her way to the sweat tent before Egwene can get there. Then she shows up literally seconds after the Darkhound attack. Finally, she almost keeps pace with a 6'6"-ish Rand as he runs at full speed to Mat's room.She probably read "how to Travel and then forget you can do that" in the same book in which she had learned how to use balefire. The title of that book was Channeling For Dummies.

Asmo claims he can't teach Rand Traveling because he's not strong enough. But Sorilea was able to show the weave to Cadsuane, so I guess this is just something Asmo was able to keep back from Rand.Asmodean is used to either being able to use a weave, or not being able to learn it in the first place. So he doesn't even think of the option of showing the weave with insufficient power to make it work. Sorilea, on the other hand, has a fairly long life time filled with experience where she can learn but can't use that learning herself, so to her this is a very normal situation.
Thus, I think that Asmodean could have shown Rand if he had thought of it, but it never even entered his mind that this possibility existed.

This isn't important or anything really, but I noticed it mentions that LTT and Lanfear knew each other since before they could channel (or at least since they started learning to channel): "He pushed away a sudden memory of this woman in his arms, both of them young and just learning what they could do with the power." Nothing important as far as I know. Just something I never noticed before.
They may have met in the train to Hogwarts.

Hugh the Hand
09-19-2014, 07:38 AM
I have often wondered about that room.

RJ described it in a way that I think he expected us to know what it was. However, I never figured it out.

Davian93
09-20-2014, 07:02 PM
I have often wondered about that room.

RJ described it in a way that I think he expected us to know what it was. However, I never figured it out.

Me too. The sad thing is that it's probably ridiculously obvious once you figure it out.

No idea though.

GonzoTheGreat
09-21-2014, 03:38 AM
Me too. The sad thing is that it's probably ridiculously obvious once you figure it out.
If it is intuitively obvious to the most casual observer, then the answer can't be anything other than "Graendal".
Which, I admit, does raise some new questions.

rand
09-24-2014, 02:02 PM
It's somewhat interesting that Ronde Macura mentions that forkroot comes from the Shadow Coast.

Macura tells Luci that she discovered forkroot hinders the ability to channel by accident. So who did she accidentally discover it with?

After Elayne and Nynaeve and co. are gone, Macura sends a message north to TV and a duplicate message west. Where is she sending this to? Tanchico? Are we supposed to know who receives it?

Immediately after, the pigeon keeper Avi Shendar reads what Macura wrote and sends another letter in a third direction. So what's he up to? I noticed that later in Sienda (where Elayne and Nynaeve meet Galad) that there's another pigeon keeper there. Is there just a network of Darkfriend pigeon keepers in the area? Moghedien will later tell Liandrin and the other BAs that Nynaeve was last seen in Sienda, so it seems likely the pigeon guys are reporting to her.

Siuan mentions that there used to be a Blue eyes-and-ears in Four Kings. I wonder if she reported to Siuan when Rand blew half the inn up there back in tEotW...

Valan Luca mentions that the "boar-horses" come from Shara, and everyone (including readers, I'm guessing) assume he's just lying/boasting. But has he really been there? Obviously the elephants are really from Seanchan, as they have the Seanchan trainer with them. But if Randlanders get their ivory from Shara, there are presumably elephants there (or maybe just other animals that had ivory horns/tusks). Also, Luca knows the name "Shara," something even Thom admitted he'd never heard until the Sea Folk mention it in tSR. Luca's tales of headless monsters and giants are probably made up, but I think it's possible he's a least visited a port city in Shara.

It's mentioned that Birgitte's clothing style is 2,000 years old, yet when Ariena shows up it's remarked how her clothes are almost the same as Birgitte's...

For all the talk of how time is very different in TAR vs the real world, we never really see someone spend an hour in TAR and wake to discover three days have gone by. Or five seconds or whatever.

While in Elaida's office in the WT, Egwene creates a nightmare to attack Nynaeve. Afterward, she implies that Nynaeve could have escaped by simply wishing herself elsewhere. But isn't this not the case? Don't you have to destroy the nightmare by realizing it isn't real in order to escape?

Why are Reds and Blues historically against each other? Wouldn't it make more sense for Reds and Greens to hate each other, as their philosophies are almost opposites? I know (at least I think I know) that the stilled Red Amyrlins were replaced with Blues, but is that really enough to spark the antagonism between the two?

Nynaeve tells Egwene she never took the forkroot, and immediately thinks this is the first time she's ever lied to Egwene. Apparently she forgot that she lied about seeing the Forsaken in TAR (it was really Birgitte who did it for her) about ten seconds earlier.

When Egwene tries to visit Rand in Chapter 15, she witnesses this:
tFoH 15
Abruptly he flipped back through the pages, read, then laughed. She tried to tell herself there was nothing of madness in that laugh, only bitterness. "A fine joke," he told Natael, snapping the book shut and tossing it to him. "Read page two hundred eighty-seven and page four hundred, and tell me if you don't agree."

Is this just a random comment, or is it significant? Is there anything special about those pages in the hardback copy of tFoH? (I only have the mass market).

Also, Egwene thinks the book is a translation of the Prophecies. Are they really over 400 pages? If so, we've seen an extremely tiny percentage of the prophecies.

Egwene mentions a dream she had of Rand "sitting down in a chair, and somehow she knew that the chair's owner would be murderously angry at having her chair taken." Who is this? I thought Morgase at first, but she's never really "murderously angry" toward Rand, is she? Is it Colavaere?

Egwene also has a dream of Perrin kissing Faile, with a Tinker standing in the background. It's obviously Aram, so why doesn't Egwene recognize him? Is it just a blurry dream thing or something?

Also, what's Aram's "chill of doom" that happens every time he steps closer to Perrin? Did RJ originally intend for Aram to be more significant than he ultimately was?

Does anyone else picture Valan Luca as acting like Tim Curry?

I never noticed this before (from Luca):
tFoH 17
"And you, my dear Nana? What surprising talent do you have? Tumbling, perhaps? Swallowing swords?"

I'm not really sure if that was intentional on RJ's part, though, or if I just have a dirty mind lol.

Are there any theories as to what Rianna Andomeran, Jeaine Caide, and Berylla Naron are sent to do? I know two of them (Rianna and Jeaine?) eventually get cameos in aMoL. Wasn't there a theory they were sent to influence Masema or something?

rand
09-26-2014, 02:26 PM
Here's a bunch more stuff from tFoH:



Why was Morgase sent to Tar Valon? She was just the heir to House Trakand, not the heir to the throne. So was it just a random decision that just happened to work out for her in gaining an alliance of sorts with TV?

How does Tallanvor know Basel Gill, and how would he know his loyalties and whether or not he can really trust him?

In Jangai Pass, Rand sees a huge carving of a snake encircling a staff. Sounds sort of similar to Hermes' staff (minus the wings at the top).

It's mentioned that Rand tried keeping up with the Aiel on foot, but he couldn't do it for more than half a day. Yet he was easily able to outrun Moiraine and co. in tDR.

I think I've asked this before somewhere, but is it possible Tam killed Laman to end the Aiel War? Laman's sword has the heron, meaning that Tam could have earned his blademaster sword by killing him. It seems unlikely I know, but if Tam realized that killing Laman would end the war...

Here's something interesting I didn't remember from before...Mat mentions that Fades "did not die completely except with a setting sun." Does this mean Fades die quicker if you kill them at night, or that they'll still live for 23 hours if you kill them an hour after sunset?

When Rand balefires the first Draghkar to attack him in Jangai Pass, shouldn't Aviendha teleport back into the tent? The only reason she came out was because she heard the Draghkar's song, so sending it back in time only a few seconds should also send Aviendha back as well, right?

Rand notes that Moiraine didn't rush to him right away during the attack, and all she says is, "I have never explained what I do or do not do. [...] I cannot hold your hand forever. Eventually, you must walk alone." Obviously she's alluding to her death in Cairhien, but still, why didn't she go to Rand right away? Just because she won't always be there to protect him doesn't mean she should stop while she still can.

How does Moghedien make Egwene dream about Galad and Gawyn and her family (while trying to trap her in TAR)? It must tap into Egwene's subconscious somehow, because Moghedien presumably doesn't know much about how Egwene's parents would act, or even where they live.

Min has a viewing of a raven tattoo around Carlinya. Has Brandon said it was just a mistake that he had her killed off by the BA?

AS can't use the OP as a weapon, but they can use it to torture each other apparently. Is this something all AS can do, or do have to have the right mindset to believe that torture is not a weapon? Ie, Elaida and Alviarin are pretty cruel and so can torture Siuan, but maybe someone weak like Shemerin would be unable to torture someone with the OP?

I thought this was a cool detail I hadn't noticed before: "The chairback behind [Sheriam's] fire-red head was incongruously carved with what seemed to be a mass of snakes fighting." This makes her look like Medusa, and might also allude to the snaky square chapter icon later used to symbolize the Forsaken.

I forget, was Siuan planning to have Egwene as Amyrlin all along?

Siuan knows that Aiel WOs can channel, and also that the Aiel are the People of the Dragon, despite the fact that Moiraine and seemingly everyone else is ignorant of these facts. Wouldn't it have been sort of helpful for Siuan to admit that she knew the Stone of Tear would fall to the Aiel? She would have read the Prophecies, I assume, so she should have known immediately that "the Stone won't fall until the People of the Dragon come etc." refered to the Aiel.

I remember Brandon saying somewhere (I think one of his writing workshops on Youtube probably) that Randland is actaully very small, no where near the size of America, and how a land that big would be ridiculous for a fantasy book. Yet Siuan says she followed the renegade AS "nearly two-thousand miles" from Tar Valon to Salidar. Just by looking at the map and eyeballing basic measurements, this seems to indicate that Randland is pretty much the exact same size as the US.

In Kadere's PoV he thinks "Perhaps he would get to see Tar Valon again. A dangerous place, for his sort, but the work there was always important, and invigorating." So Kadere's been to TV before. Did we see any of the effects of him being there? Was he involved in the Gray Man attacks at all? Was he with the DFs chasing Mat around? (in which case, does he recognize Mat when he meets him in the Waste?)

Why did Melindhra contact Kadere? They never really do anything together, do they? And how did she know he was a DF in the first place?

For some reason, I never realized before that Aviendha Traveled to southern Seanchan. I guess I always just assumed it was in the northern hemisphere. Is it safe to assume, then, that she literally did Travel to the exact part of the earth furthest from where she originally started in Cairhien? I guess before I just assumed she randomly went to somewhere that was simply "far away."

Rand mentions that it's never rained in the Waste except when he made it with the OP. Is this even possible? Even the driest deserts in real life get at least a little rain, right? Are there underground reservoirs all over the Waste, like in Rhuidean?

I thought this was pretty interesting. Something I don't remember at all from other reads. When Rand and Aviendha talk about marrying each other in the igloo, Aviendha says "By your customs, I did not have my mother's permission. And you would need your father's, I suppose. Or your father-brothers, since your father is dead? We did not have them, so we cannot marry." Does Rand really have uncles, and other relatives via Janduin, all over the place in the Waste? I never thoguht about that before. I don't think this is ever mentioned again in the series, is it?

Why doesn't Rand recognize the raken? Didn't he see them at Falme?

And as far as I remember, Rand should already know that the sul'dam can channel too.

Kimon
09-26-2014, 06:48 PM
In Jangai Pass, Rand sees a huge carving of a snake encircling a staff. Sounds sort of similar to Hermes' staff (minus the wings at the top).



Probably this. Hermes' staff is called the caduceus by the way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_of_Asclepius

GonzoTheGreat
09-27-2014, 03:47 AM
Why was Morgase sent to Tar Valon? She was just the heir to House Trakand, not the heir to the throne. So was it just a random decision that just happened to work out for her in gaining an alliance of sorts with TV?The throne has been held by a number of Andoran Houses, so it may be that she was send there just on the off chance that an opportunity presented itself. I wouldn't be too surprised if more Andoran Houses had such a policy.

I think I've asked this before somewhere, but is it possible Tam killed Laman to end the Aiel War? Laman's sword has the heron, meaning that Tam could have earned his blademaster sword by killing him. It seems unlikely I know, but if Tam realized that killing Laman would end the war...It seems unlikely. The way things work, I would suspect that Rand's birth and Laman's death happened at the same moment, and that would leave very little time for Tam to get away from whatever mess was caused by such regicide, lose all pursuers, climb the mountain and find the baby.

Edited to add: the BWB says that it was the Aiel who killed Laman, and in a number of places where Aiel speak about the affair it is suggested that this was the case, though it is never said explicitly.

Here's something interesting I didn't remember from before...Mat mentions that Fades "did not die completely except with a setting sun." Does this mean Fades die quicker if you kill them at night, or that they'll still live for 23 hours if you kill them an hour after sunset?On the one hand: they'd still be alive (sort of) that long. On the other hand: it is more likely that this is just a somewhat exaggerated description of how difficult it is to kill a Fade.

When Rand balefires the first Draghkar to attack him in Jangai Pass, shouldn't Aviendha teleport back into the tent? The only reason she came out was because she heard the Draghkar's song, so sending it back in time only a few seconds should also send Aviendha back as well, right?Well, yes, but there is the

Rand notes that Moiraine didn't rush to him right away during the attack, and all she says is, "I have never explained what I do or do not do. [...] I cannot hold your hand forever. Eventually, you must walk alone." Obviously she's alluding to her death in Cairhien, but still, why didn't she go to Rand right away? Just because she won't always be there to protect him doesn't mean she should stop while she still can.I suspect that if she had known what was going on precisely, she would have (tried to) come to his aid immediately. But she didn't, and then either she would admit being fallible (something she's not keen on doing) or give a mysterious but not untrue answer.

I forget, was Siuan planning to have Egwene as Amyrlin all along?Definitely not while Siuan was still Amyrlin. Afterwards, I think she was at first trying to figure out what she could actually still do. I don't think even she knew precisely when she decided to install Egwene as puppet Amyrlin.

Rand mentions that it's never rained in the Waste except when he made it with the OP. Is this even possible? Even the driest deserts in real life get at least a little rain, right? Are there underground reservoirs all over the Waste, like in Rhuidean?It is quite possible that even the driest places on Earth get some rain. But on the other hand, there is a fairly reliable record that it has not rained in the Atacama Desert in South America for at least 400 years. How long ago the last rainfall there was is unknown; our records of the place don't go back further than those 400 years, which is why we can be confident of that figure. Because it is so dry there, it is a good place for astronomy, so a lot of big telescopes are placed there.

I thought this was pretty interesting. Something I don't remember at all from other reads. When Rand and Aviendha talk about marrying each other in the igloo, Aviendha says "By your customs, I did not have my mother's permission. And you would need your father's, I suppose. Or your father-brothers, since your father is dead? We did not have them, so we cannot marry." Does Rand really have uncles, and other relatives via Janduin, all over the place in the Waste? I never thoguht about that before. I don't think this is ever mentioned again in the series, is it?There are vague hints to other Aiel relatives, but no more. Of course, if she'd thought things through, then Aviendha would probably have realised that Rand needd permission from Tam.

Why doesn't Rand recognize the raken? Didn't he see them at Falme?He was a bit busy at the time.

And as far as I remember, Rand should already know that the sul'dam can channel too.Maybe, maybe not. I don't know how much he had been told about that issue. Then again, it is possible that someone else will manage to dig up a relevant quote.

Marie Curie 7
09-27-2014, 11:02 PM
Also, Egwene thinks the book is a translation of the Prophecies. Are they really over 400 pages? If so, we've seen an extremely tiny percentage of the prophecies.

RJ was asked about the Prophecies of the Dragon; he indicated that if written out, they would be fairly lengthy.


Interview: Jun 27th, 1996
AOL Chat 1 (http://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=67#8)

Belsamar
OK. Let's see if this works. Hello, RJ. Just out of curiosity, do your predictions (Foretellings and Min's viewings) have a well, Delphic quality by accident, or by choice? And did you ever think of writing a copy of The Prophecies of the Dragon?

Robert Jordan
There's very little in the books that's by accident—very little...and no, I've never thought of writing out the complete Prophecies of the Dragon. As already stated in a previous book, they would comprise a volume of some 300 to 400 pages.



Min has a viewing of a raven tattoo around Carlinya. Has Brandon said it was just a mistake that he had her killed off by the BA?

Maria answered this one:


Interview: Apr, 2012
Afternoon Tea with Brandon Sanderson - Luckers (http://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=749#28)

Luckers
What was the stylized raven that Min viewed around Carlinya?

Brandon Sanderson
I thought that had already been answered. Did Jim not answer this?

Luckers
No. Everyone thought it referred to Carlinya being da’covale to the Empress. But no, it hasn’t been answered.

Brandon Sanderson
Oh. Oh, okay. Well, I will RAFO/MAFO it. You can email Maria and me about it, but I may have to RAFO it.

Maria Simons
The raven is a symbol of the Dark One as well as the Seanchan; Carlinya was killed fighting the Black Ajah.




I remember Brandon saying somewhere (I think one of his writing workshops on Youtube probably) that Randland is actaully very small, no where near the size of America, and how a land that big would be ridiculous for a fantasy book. Yet Siuan says she followed the renegade AS "nearly two-thousand miles" from Tar Valon to Salidar. Just by looking at the map and eyeballing basic measurements, this seems to indicate that Randland is pretty much the exact same size as the US.

If Brandon did say something like that, I don't believe that it's in the database. However, if it's from a writing workshop, those aren't transcribed, so that wouldn't be in there.

Anyway, the map of the entire world in the BWB has a scale on it, and that makes it clear that Randland and the rest of the continent as well as Seanchan, the Land of Madmen, etc, make the world similar in size to earth; it is supposed to be a future/past earth, after all.

Also RJ has given some rough distances in Q&As and these are roughly in accord with BWB map:


Interview: Aug 23rd, 1996
ACOS Signing Report - Lara Beaton (http://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=71#2)

Robert Jordan
Randland size: Randland is approximately 4500 miles across. Seanchan is as big as Randland, the Aiel Waste, and Shara all put together (a single empire the size of North and South America).


Interview: Aug 23rd, 1996
ACOS Signing Report - Robert Watson (http://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=665#1)

Robert Watson
Hi, There seems to have been much discussion about Randland size recently, and section (2.08) of the FAQ, "Geography of Randland" didn't have any info, so we (myself, Lara, and Greebs) took it upon ourselves to ask about this at the Vancouver signing (Friday 23rd).

Robert Jordan
From the Spine to the Aryth Ocean is 4-5000 miles; RJ compared Seanchan to the Americas, as one landmass. He made it clear that the Seanchan Empire is big.

rand
09-28-2014, 11:32 PM
It is quite possible that even the driest places on Earth get some rain. But on the other hand, there is a fairly reliable record that it has not rained in the Atacama Desert in South America for at least 400 years. How long ago the last rainfall there was is unknown; our records of the place don't go back further than those 400 years, which is why we can be confident of that figure. Because it is so dry there, it is a good place for astronomy, so a lot of big telescopes are placed there.
I think it's only certain places in the Atacama that don't get rain. The desert as a whole still has an average annual rainfall (though it's probably extremely low). So I guess it's possible that an area the size of the Waste never gets rain, but not all that likely.


@Marie: Thanks for the info. I didn't know Maria had responded to the Carlinya thing. Though FWIW, Min specifically says the viewing is of a raven tattoo, not just a raven, so I would guess RJ still meant it to refer to the Seanchan.

GonzoTheGreat
09-29-2014, 03:24 AM
I think it's only certain places in the Atacama that don't get rain. The desert as a whole still has an average annual rainfall (though it's probably extremely low). So I guess it's possible that an area the size of the Waste never gets rain, but not all that likely.
From what I've read of it, the interior of Pangaea was a desert with very little rain. If there were sufficiently high mountain ranges at the right places, then very substantial desert areas there would not have gotten any rain at all.

It simply depends on the geography; if the Spine of the World is in the way of the prevailing winds, then that would draw out all moisture and the Waste would only get dry air, which wouldn't produce rain.
According to the descriptions, there is a marshy area in the south (adjoining the ocean) which may get some rain, but is for other reasons not really suitable for habitation.

rand
10-02-2014, 03:41 PM
Couldn't Nynaeve have just studied a map and read all the names to find Salidar? Granted, they may not have been able to get one, but it would have been easier than riding around the countryside in the off-chance Nynaeve will remember the name at some point.

For that matter, how does Nynaeve know where Salidar is when she does hear it from Galad? I can't imagine one of the very few things she learned in the Tower was the location of some obscure town connected with the Blues.

Also, a town that's historically significant to the Blues should be one of the first places Elaida searches for them. Maybe it is, based on the letter Nynaeve read, unless the location was betrayed right away by Beonin or someone.

It seems like a bit of a stretch that Birgitte could survive getting thrown 90 feet through the air and hit a wagon so hard she bounces back fifteen feet.

Thom tells Elayne that the Borderlands are the only nations to escape the Great Game entirely. Is this a little naive on Thom's part? Someone like him should know that even the Borderlands engage in some kind of political manuevering. It isn't completely absent just because of Trolloc raids.

When Elayne bonds Birgitte, she says she knew how because she saw two AS bonding their Warders. Where would she have seen this? Presumably they don't just bond the guys in the WT hallways. And I'm also guessing Elayne didn't sneak into their rooms to watch them do it in private.

Birgitte remembers hearing about a female Warder "in a life so long ago that I cannot remember more than that." Is this just a mistake, or does it imply that channelers once knew the weave for bonding, forgot it in the AoL, then remembered it again in modern times?

How does Elayne learn how to perfectly tight rope walk on her first try without the OP? And do handstands and backflips and cartwheels, no less...

Is it possible the menagerie owner Mairin Gomes is Marrilin Gemalphin in disguise? Admittedly I'm saying this mostly because of the similarity in names, but when Moghedien gives Marrilin her instructions she is "surprised, and then eager, but she had been a Brown, and Browns could be enthusiastic over anything that allowed them a chance to unearth some moldy bit of lost knowledge." Getting assigned to run a menagerie would be surprising, but a former Brown might be eager to study the rare animals there. My thought was that Moghedien has her following Masema around. We also know one of the menageries was attacked by a mob because the WCs suspected one of the performers of being a channeler, though I'm not sure if that show is ever identified as being Mairin Gome's.

Shouldn't Uno and Ragan realize beforehand that asking Masema and the Whitecloaks to each secure a ship is a good way to start a riot?

I know very little about archery, but is it really possible to consistently hit a target from six hundred feet away with a longbow, as the Two Rivers men can apparently do?

Rand notes that Weiramon's symbol is similar to Lanfear's. And obviously he turns out to be a DF. But is there anything connecting him to Lanfear, or is the similarity just supposed to be a hint that he's connected with the Shadow?

Rand keeps thinking that Min's the only woman who's never made him feel like a confused idiot, but the only time we really see them interact is when Min scares the crap out of him with her viewings back in Baerlon.

I forget if this is ever answered, but why did rioters burn down the graneries in Cairhien after the king was assassinated? Is there some connection between the two, or did it just seem like a good idea at the time...?

How were Couladin's fake dragons made? If they were just illusion, could Asmodean have removed them any time?

I found this exchange between Rand, Asmo, and Lan interesting:
tFoH 42
"Play 'March of Death,'" [Rand commanded][...] "Play it, unless you know know a sadder. Play something to make your soul weep. If you have one still."

Natael gave him an ingratiating smile and a seated bow, but he went white around the eyes. It was indeed 'The March of Death' that be began, yet it had a sharper edge on his harp than ever before, a dirgelike keen that surely would make any soul weep. He stared fixedly at Rand as if hoping to see some effect.

Turning away, Rand stretched out on the carpets with his head to the maps and a red-and-gold cushion under his elbow. "Lan, would you ask the others to come in now?"

The Warder made a formal bow before stepping outside. It was the first time that he had ever done that, but Rand noticed only absently.

Does this indicate that Lan recognizes Asmo for what he is (more or less) and bows to Rand in respect for it? Assuming Moiraine hasn't mentioned Asmo to Lan, Rand's comments about Natael having no soul should surely arouse Lan's suspicions.


The WOs clearly know about the Three Oathes, as they know about the no lying part. So shouldn't they be suspicious when Egwene fights in the battle at Cairhien but Moiraine doesn't?

If Mat was able to guess the entire battle scheme in Cairhien he should have known where to go/not go in order to escape the area. Of course, there's ta'veren and all that which probably wouldn't have let him, but still. He even notes that he was a fool for riding right where he assumed Rand's troops would be headed.

If 'los caba'drin' means 'horsemen foreward,' then does Liandrin mean 'something-horse'?

How do they Aiel tell the difference between what clan they're in just by looking at each other? They all where the same thing, right?

Is it ever mentioned if the Cairhienin remember that Rand is the "Andoran lord" they were all excited about back in tGH? I think it was mentioned back then that every lord and lady sent Rand an invitation, so people like Dobraine and Colavaere should already be familiar with him (well, sort of, at least).



Ok, here's a few random things that don't really have anything to do with tFoH specifically:

I've wondered before why Tam join the army in Illian of all places. Is it possible he just sailed down the Manatherendrelle from Taren Ferry all the way to Illian?

Are there any female Whitecloaks? Or any females associated with them at all? They seem like pretty much the only male-dominated society in all of Randland.



Not sure if this is coincidence or not, but I found it interesting that on the colored map at the front of the book, you can draw straight lines between a lot of the cities.

For example:
-Maradon, Chachin, Shol Arbela, Fal Moran

-Bandar Eban, Katar, Emond's Field, Whitebridge, Far Madding, Godan

-Cairhien, Caemlyn, Lugard, Salidar

-Amador, Salidar, Tear, Godan

-Illian, Caemlyn, Tar Valon

-Illian, Far Madding, Aringill, Cairhien

-Falme, Baerlon, Cairhien

-Mayene, Godan, Aringill, Maradon

-Tanchico, Elmora, Tear, Godan

-Ebou Dar, Lugard, Four Kings

-Elmora, Jehennah, Whitebridge, Cairhien

-Chachin, Tar Valon, Cairhien

-Falme, Baerlon, Cairhien

-Shol Arbela, Tar Valon, Far Madding

-etc.

Obviously there are a lot of cities on the map, but it seems like this must have been intentional, at least to some extent, right? I think I included every city in the map in at least one of those connections. Is this significant at all? Maybe you can draw a shape between some of the cities or something?

GonzoTheGreat
10-03-2014, 04:34 AM
Birgitte remembers hearing about a female Warder "in a life so long ago that I cannot remember more than that." Is this just a mistake, or does it imply that channelers once knew the weave for bonding, forgot it in the AoL, then remembered it again in modern times?Birgitte may at that point still have had a memory from the previous Fifth Age, when tales about Egeanin were still being told.

How does Elayne learn how to perfectly tight rope walk on her first try without the OP? And do handstands and backflips and cartwheels, no less...A selection effect. In all those alternative worlds where she didn't, the DO won.

I know very little about archery, but is it really possible to consistently hit a target from six hundred feet away with a longbow, as the Two Rivers men can apparently do?They don't have quite that range, but aside from that: yes. Assuming, at least, that there is no wind, that they have perfect arrows, and that their targets are tied down so that they do not make any kind of unexpected movement at all (Tam misses once because his target was unkind enough to be killed prematurely by another TR archer).

Rand keeps thinking that Min's the only woman who's never made him feel like a confused idiot, but the only time we really see them interact is when Min scares the crap out of him with her viewings back in Baerlon.Yeah, but Rand was also coming down with post-channeling malady at the time, so he doesn't remember that episode very well. Which makes it look a lot better, apparently.

The WOs clearly know about the Three Oathes, as they know about the no lying part. So shouldn't they be suspicious when Egwene fights in the battle at Cairhien but Moiraine doesn't?They may have assumed that Egwene thought she was fighting to preserve her life (if Rand died, all AS would be lost too) while Moiraine wasn't convinced of that.
I never really figured out why any AS could think that a threat to the DR wasn't sufficient to meet the qualifications for the Third Oath.

How do they Aiel tell the difference between what clan they're in just by looking at each other? They all where the same thing, right?Yeah, apart from the fact that the Taardad have yellow embroidery, the Nakai use green, the ... or perhaps something similar to that. It is not at all surprising that they could spot differences they've trained their whole life to notice that Wetlanders overlook because they never think those specific differences could be important at all.

Is it ever mentioned if the Cairhienin remember that Rand is the "Andoran lord" they were all excited about back in tGH? I think it was mentioned back then that every lord and lady sent Rand an invitation, so people like Dobraine and Colavaere should already be familiar with him (well, sort of, at least).They no doubt forgot all about him. However, at least some of them should have had sufficiently competent secretaries to have made notes of that event, and to have combined the two later on. On the other hand, it is quite believable that none of them really could figure out how to use that knowledge in their attempts to seize the throne.

Are there any female Whitecloaks? Or any females associated with them at all? They seem like pretty much the only male-dominated society in all of Randland.There's the Gleemen And Bards Union (GABU) which also is closed to women.
But it is a bit surprising that there aren't any Whiteskirts, now that you mention it.

Not sure if this is coincidence or not, but I found it interesting that on the colored map at the front of the book, you can draw straight lines between a lot of the cities.

...

Obviously there are a lot of cities on the map, but it seems like this must have been intentional, at least to some extent, right? I think I included every city in the map in at least one of those connections. Is this significant at all? Maybe you can draw a shape between some of the cities or something?
At a guess, I'd say that this is simply another example of the canals on Mars: if you place a whole bunch of dots on a globe, then you can draw a lot of straight lines through them and thus produce what seems to be a meaningful pattern. Doesn't quite prove the pattern is not there, but it is a strong warning against assuming that it is any more than coincidence.

rand
10-06-2014, 12:19 AM
Gonzo
Birgitte may at that point still have had a memory from the previous Fifth Age, when tales about Egeanin were still being told.

That's true. But if that's the case the tales could have been about Birgitte herself, I suppose.


Here's a weird random thing I thought of: is it possible to Travel out of TAR back into the real world while you're asleep? Would there then be two of you? Would the one that Traveled out of TAR disappear once the original woke up?

When Nynaeve packs their Seal away before they leave for Salidar, she can feel the DO through it stronger than ever. And later it breaks on the journey. Is this just coincidence or was the DO actively trying to break that particular Seal just then? And did Moghedien have any role in breaking it on the journey?

The battle at Cairhien makes an interesting parallel with the Last Battle. Both times the main bad guy (Couladin and Demandred) desperately want to face Rand, but have to settle for Mat instead. Also, Perrin plays little to no role on either...

When Nynaeve and Elayne visit Emond's Field in TAR, they see the plinth on the green that's carved with "mostly Two Rivers names." Who else's names would be on it from outside the TR? Alanna's Warder Owein? Some Tinkers?

Also when they're in TAR, Nynaeve and Elayne get attacked by a unicorn thing. They laugh it off and think it's silly, but is this something Moghedien made in a half-assed attempt to hurt them?

Why is Birgitte so adamant about not letting Egwene know about her? She's already revealed herself to Nynaeve, Elayne, and even Perrin. Plus, now that she's ripped out of TAR, she doesn't need to follow the precepts anymore, right?

When they meet with Egwene and the WOs, Egwene makes it seem as though she'll tell Rand about Salidar:
tFoH 49
"Rand will want to know about Masema. And Salidar. If I can make him stand still long enough to listen."

Apparently this never happens, though. Doesn't Rand have to spy on them to eventually learn about it?


Nynaeve keeps getting reminded of the taste of boiled catfern and powdered mavinsleaf that Egwene made her drink...except Egwene never made her drink it.

The Salidar AS conclude that three Seals to the DO's prison remain. How do they know about the two in Falme and the one in Rhuidean? Did Nynaeve and Elyane even know of those? They also presumably don't know about the one Taim later "finds" in a farm.

Since Min always sees viewings around channelers and Warders, shouldn't she be able to tell that "Marigan's" a channeler based on all the viewings she must see around her?

Does Egwene ever tell anyone she knows Min loves Rand (based on the end of tGH)? It seems like she's just all too happy to hand him over to Elayne. And clearly she never mention Min + Rand to Elayne.

GonzoTheGreat
10-06-2014, 03:29 AM
That's true. But if that's the case the tales could have been about Birgitte herself, I suppose.Well, yes, if there were any stories about her, then that's a possibility too I guess.

When Nynaeve and Elayne visit Emond's Field in TAR, they see the plinth on the green that's carved with "mostly Two Rivers names." Who else's names would be on it from outside the TR? Alanna's Warder Owein? Some Tinkers?Perhaps some Whitecloaks too.

Since Min always sees viewings around channelers and Warders, shouldn't she be able to tell that "Marigan's" a channeler based on all the viewings she must see around her?I suspect that Min was getting a bit overwhelmed with viewings at the time, and therefore didn't notice anything strange when she got such viewings around one more person.

Weird Harold
10-06-2014, 04:17 AM
When Nynaeve and Elayne visit Emond's Field in TAR, they see the plinth on the green that's carved with "mostly Two Rivers names." Who else's names would be on it from outside the TR? Alanna's Warder Owein? Some Tinkers?


If I recall the timeline correctly, there was a lot of immigration into the Two Rivers before Perrin showed up. Refugees making their way through the Mountains of Mist from
Tarabon and other eastern nations.

Nynaeve keeps getting reminded of the taste of boiled catfern and powdered mavinsleaf that Egwene made her drink...except Egwene never made her drink it.

Egwene did make her drink boiled Catfern in one of the early lessons in TAR -- or at least threatened to, as I recall.

Since Min always sees viewings around channelers and Warders, shouldn't she be able to tell that "Marigan's" a channeler based on all the viewings she must see around her?

"Marigan" was hiding her ability to Channel; perhaps blocking another Channeler's ability to sense her also blocks Min's viewings based on her ability.

GonzoTheGreat
10-06-2014, 04:23 AM
If I recall the timeline correctly, there was a lot of immigration into the Two Rivers before Perrin showed up. Refugees making their way through the Mountains of Mist from
Tarabon and other eastern nations.If you don't recall it correctly (and you don't, which may be an important detail here) then that migration only really picked up when Perrin had settled there and was exerting his ta'veren influence.
People came to the TR because it was relatively safe and peaceful, not because they were eager to get eaten by Trollocs.

"Marigan" was hiding her ability to Channel; perhaps blocking another Channeler's ability to sense her also blocks Min's viewings based on her ability.Maybe, but based on events in AMoL, where "Marigan" (whatever she was calling herself then) was spotted by Min despite having hidden her ability to channel, I wouldn't trust that theory too far.

rand
10-09-2014, 04:19 PM
When Rand sees the seal on Alviarin's letter, he recognizes it "as the island of Tar Valon." How does he recognize it? It isn't from LTT, because TV was just a random island then. Rand's never seen TV from an aerial perspective, and only in a dream. Unless he's seen maps of it (and there's nothing to say either way), there should be no way he'd instantly recognize and outline of Tar Valon.

How did Moiraine intercept the two letters for Rand from TV? It's also heavily implied that she was able to read them first as well...

After Rand hears about Rahvin killing Morgase, he freaks out and gets ready to attack Rahvin on the spot. But then Moiraine says simply "Tomorrow," and all of a sudden Rand cools down a bit and starts rationally thinking the situation through. So my question is, did Moiraine use some light form of Compulsion on Rand so that he'd hold off the attack long enough for Moiraine to kill Lanfear the next day?

Mat doesn't have memories from any two people that lived at the same time, right? So he has no memories of Hawkwing? This is somewhat odd considering the Aelfinn doorway was originally in Mayene and belonged to Hawkwing's descendants, implying Hawkwing himself may have owned it at some point. And if he did, presumably he would have used it. I know that's a lot of assumptions, but my point is that the Eelfinn should have access to Hawkwing's memories, even if they didn't give them to Mat.

Where do the dice in Mat's head come from? I think he has an early version of them in Tear at the end of tDR, so that would seem to rule out either trip to Finnland. Is it from Mordeth? Being ta'veren?

In the chapters before her "death," it's noted by Rand that Moiraine's blue stone glows. It's mentioned at least three times, iirc. Is this significant at all?

In the final Kadere PoV, we get this:
tFoH 52
The docks held almost as many Aiel as they did workmen, come to stare at the river; he had seen a few of those faces more often than seemed reasonable, and some had looked at him consideringly. A few Cairhienin had as well, and a Tairen lord. That meant nothing by itself, of course, but if he could find a few men to work with...

Assuming these are DFs searching out Kadere, who are they? The Cairhienin aren't mentioned as being nobles, so it's hard to tell with them. What about the Tairen lord? Weiramon was already gone by this point, but are any of the other Tairen lords with Rand DFs?


Kadere is instantly able to look at Aviendha's face and tell she's been sleeping with Rand. No one else can, apparently. Even the WOs seem largely ignorant of this until Amys points it out shortly after Moiraine's death.

What makes the doorway melt when Moiraine and Lanfear fall through? Is it the fact that they're both channeling, or did Moiraine try to destroy it when she got the angreal away from Lanfear?

Amys calls Rand a fool when he says that Moiraine's dead. Moiraine seems to have gotten her knowledge of this day from Rhuidean, not the WOs, so how does Amys know Moiraine's still alive? Did the WOs Dream about it?

How did one of the supremely capable Aiel manage to trip and fall off the Skimming platform?

Something that just occured to me: given infinite time, will the gholam eventually fall on someone's Skimming platform and escape the Skimming space? I forget if he'll starve to death without blood, though...

How did Rahvin get all the Trollocs into the palace in Caemlyn? Presumably no one really saw this, as the whole city would have fled, not just the people in the palace. Also, are these Trollocs and Fades the same as the ones that were camped outside Caemlyn back in tEotW? iirc there were about 400 of them then.

Since Moghedien is the self-professed queen of TAR, shouldn't she easily be able to escape the a'dam, as Egwene did in ToM? It's hard to believe Nynaeve's bumbling adventures in TAR give her equal experience there with Moghedien. Also, couldn't Moggy have just forced Nynaeve out of TAR at any point too?

How did Moghedien know about Rand's plan to attack Rahvin? Melindhra found out, but was killed immediately after...

Right before they go to Caemlyn in TAR, Nynaeve thinks this:
tFoH 54
Another deep breath, and Nynaeve began forming the image of the one place in Caemlyn she knew well enough to remember. The Royal Palace, where Elayne had taken her. Rahvin must be there.

Nynaeve seriously doesn't remember her visit to Caemlyn in tEotW? The Queen's Blessing? Anywhere else?


Nynaeve also thinks this a little while into the battle:
tFoH 55
Had that been Rand, or Rahvin? She had seen bars of white fire, liquid light, like that in Tanchico, and she had no wish to be anywhere near one again. She did not know what it was, and she did not want to know. I want to Heal, burn both of these fool men, not learn a fancy way to kill!

What? Nynaeve has heard of balefire, used BF, and even recognized it as BF back in Tanchico in tSR. Nynaeve seems to have a lot of memory issues in TAR at the end of this book...


I know RJ's said the two servants Rand comes across aren't Graendal and Sammael in disguise. But who are they, then? All the servants have reportedly fled the palace.


I noticed this for the first time from the last chapter (from Rand's PoV):
tFoH 56
Asmodean sat on a bench in the shade of a red myrtle tree, playing his harp.

After some vigorous research (well, a few seconds on Google) I saw that myrtle trees can be symbols of divine justice, prosperity, and immortality. So I guess Asmo's myrtle tree was added by RJ for irony...

GonzoTheGreat
10-10-2014, 04:24 AM
When Rand sees the seal on Alviarin's letter, he recognizes it "as the island of Tar Valon." How does he recognize it? It isn't from LTT, because TV was just a random island then. Rand's never seen TV from an aerial perspective, and only in a dream. Unless he's seen maps of it (and there's nothing to say either way), there should be no way he'd instantly recognize and outline of Tar Valon.Quite true. Well spotted. Now, if you'd read the first book in the series too, then you might have noticed the following:
The land itself was different, though, for by midday the road entered low hills. For two days the road ran through the hills – cut right through them, sometimes, if they were wide enough to have made the road go much out of its way and not so big as to have made digging through too difficult. As the angle of the sun shifted each day it became apparent that the road, for all it appeared straight to the eye, curved slowly southward as it ran east. Rand had daydreamed over Master al'Vere's old map – half the boys in Emond's Field had daydreamed over it – and as he remembered, the road curved around something called the Hills of Absher until it reached Whitebridge.Now, combine the way that Tar Valon looks with "half the boys daydreaming over the map" and you'll understand why Rand might be able to recognise it at a glance.

Mat doesn't have memories from any two people that lived at the same time, right? So he has no memories of Hawkwing? This is somewhat odd considering the Aelfinn doorway was originally in Mayene and belonged to Hawkwing's descendants, implying Hawkwing himself may have owned it at some point. And if he did, presumably he would have used it. I know that's a lot of assumptions, but my point is that the Eelfinn should have access to Hawkwing's memories, even if they didn't give them to Mat.Mat probably does have memories from people who were alive at the same time, though he has never really sat down and figured that out one way or another.
It seems likely that the Eelfinn gave him just the memories they wanted to give him, not all that they had.

How did one of the supremely capable Aiel manage to trip and fall off the Skimming platform?Some of the border stones looked solid, but weren't. Making the wrong mistake with that, especially in crowded conditions, can be fatal.

Something that just occured to me: given infinite time, will the gholam eventually fall on someone's Skimming platform and escape the Skimming space? I forget if he'll starve to death without blood, though...He'll probably die of boredom if he doesn't starve.

rand
10-10-2014, 09:45 PM
Quite true. Well spotted. Now, if you'd read the first book in the series too, then you might have noticed the following:

Now, combine the way that Tar Valon looks with "half the boys daydreaming over the map" and you'll understand why Rand might be able to recognise it at a glance.
It's possible Rand saw it there I guess. But assuming Bran's map was of all Randland (5000 x 4000 miles or so), it seems unlikely a tiny island like TV (1 x .5 miles I think(?)) would show up as anything more than a dot.

Though admittedly I never connected all the daydreaming the boys do with the map we get of TV, lol...

rand
10-14-2014, 11:28 PM
I haven't read very far into LoC yet. I've been writing more than reading lately. Anyway, here's some stuff from the prologue and first few chapters.



First I just wanted to mention the cover art for this book. I know DKS wasn't exactly known for his accuracy with the WoT books but...what the hell is the scene on the front even supposed to be? I'm guessing it's Dumai's Wells, but then who's the girl? Min's the only one there, yet it's clearly not her. It looks like Elayne in a frayed White Tower graduation gown or something. And then there's that flying thing, which I guess is somehow symbolic of the Dragon even though it looks nothing like how the dragon banner is described. And then on the back cover there's some floating circus tents with the...green banner of Andor? Or is it Gawyn's white boar?

I also wanted to say that, for me, this is where the series starts to get more interesting. I know I'm in the minority here, but I think LoC through WH is my favorite section of the whole thing. I'm not really sure why, exactly. And that's not to say I dislike any of the previous books. The only book I really have a pain enjoying is CoT.



Ok, so now that we know Demandred was in Shara the whole time, what was the purpose of the "bookend" PoVs he gets in LoC? Since the book finishes with him saying "Have I not done well, Great Lord?" he presumably does something off screen. It's easy to assume he did something that affected the plot of LoC, but this doesn't seem to be the case. So are we just supposed to assume he took over Shara in this time period? If so, he's much later than the other Forsaken in taking over his respective nation.

Why is the Bore thinner at this particular spot? I'm not sure of this matters, but the "idyllic island" (Shayol Ghul) is clearly not where Lanfear originally drilled the Bore.

So to make the Myrddraal blades someone has to be killed. Does this imply there's a soul trapped inside each blade or...what?

When did Elayne make her copy of the a'dam? She doesn't seem to have done it by the end of tFoH, but they must have used it right away on Marigan before she woke up. And it couldn't have been the original a'dam they used, as everyone would have noticed it.

I forget if this is ever mentioned, but are the "Salidar Six" (Sheriam and the others) the six most powerful AS in Salidar? Why are they in charge of everything, even after they've elected a new Hall? I know they organized the rebels, but that doesn't seem like a good enough reason for all the other AS to leave them in charge.

So what is a well-turned calf anyway?

Dav Ayellin and Ewin Finngar never showed up again, right? It would've been cool for them to have a cameo in aMoL.

By the prologue of LoC, Taren Ferry has been repopulated. They've even elected a new mayor, have a Wisdom, and presumably have a Village Council and Women's Circle. So why is the village still in ruins by the time of the aMoL prologue? And all the original villagers have apparently fled, so it can't be blamed on Taren Ferry people being weird.

Is the peddler who tells Gawyn that Rand killed his mother really just a peddler? Even Gawyn notes how odd it is that a peddler would happen upon their camp out in the middle of nowhere. Since we know he's been in the area, is it possibly Sammael trying to turn House Trakand against Rand?

It's constantly brought up that Rand was hanging High Lords left and right back in Tear. I forget, did he actually ever hang any of them? I remember he threaten to, but I thought that was all.

The return of Paitr, the most incompetent DF ever. Seriously, what's his plan with Morgase? There isn't even really a point to him being in this book, unless it's the irony of the WCs catching a real DF for once. What about his Uncle Jen? Is he real, or just something Paitr made up?

From what I can remember, the first time Mesaana is mentioned (outside of the glossary) is in her own PoV in the LoC prologue. I think she's also the last Forsaken to get named.

When Demandred reveals the DO's plan to Mesaana and the others, Mesaana thinks it's a gamble and will require a lot of luck. Does this plan refer to anything we see later on in the series?

Why does it take well over a year to reincarnate Aginor and Balthamel, but Ishamael and Lanfear come back much more quickly?

If "car" means chief (as in car'a'carn), what does jo-car translate to?

Names like Arymilla and Daerilla look more Spanishy (ie Tairen) than Andoran.

Do we know if Taim was always a DF, or if he just switched sides after he was freed? If he wasn't always a DF, how did he escape the taint? Is it possible he didn't have the spark, and the Shadow taught him/recruited him shortly before the series started?

Why does Taim look different to Bashere now? It can't just be the fact that he shaved. There must be some reason RJ brought this up, though.

We know he wasn't Demandred or anything, but what is it about Taim that makes "LTT" want to not trust him/kill him?

Why did Taim give the seal to Rand? It seems like a big thing for the DO to give up just so Taim could earn Rand's trust.

This may tie in with the LTT wanting to kill Taim thing, but is there any evidence that Taim is a new Forsaken from the start? I forget if Taim mentions in aMoL when he was chosen. Anyway, some of LTT's ramblings ("Kill him! Kill them all!") might make a bit more sense if he (ie Rand subconsciously) thought that Taim was a Forsaken.

Taim mentions Rand's luck a few times. First he says "You seem to have luck enough for ten men." Then he says "You do seem to have the Dark One's own luck." This is odd for a couple reasons. One, he's barely known Rand for ten minutes when he says all this. And two, nothing all that extraordinary happened to make Taim say it. Sure, Damer Flinn tested positive for channeling (Taim's first try), but it's a bit of an overreaction on Taim's part to go on about Rand's luck like he does. Unless he already knows Rand, or has heard rumors of him...

Taim is literally shocked when Rand mentions a Forsaken might try to infiltrate the BT. Is this because he already knows about the plan involving Aginor/Dashiva?

It's mentioned that Rand is special to the Maidens because he's the only child of a Maiden they've known to be a Maiden's child. But wouldn't they find it odd when a non-Maiden suddenly has a baby without getting pregnant? They'd have to assume that was also a child of a Maiden.

GonzoTheGreat
10-15-2014, 03:52 AM
First I just wanted to mention the cover art for this book. I know DKS wasn't exactly known for his accuracy with the WoT books but...what the hell is the scene on the front even supposed to be?The cover art is artsy. I think that this time I'll leave other comments to others.

Ok, so now that we know Demandred was in Shara the whole time, what was the purpose of the "bookend" PoVs he gets in LoC? Since the book finishes with him saying "Have I not done well, Great Lord?" he presumably does something off screen. It's easy to assume he did something that affected the plot of LoC, but this doesn't seem to be the case. So are we just supposed to assume he took over Shara in this time period? If so, he's much later than the other Forsaken in taking over his respective nation.Demandred recruited Mazrim Taim, probably around this time. That became sort of a central issue in the next book, though it wasn't explicitly revealed until AMoL.

Is the peddler who tells Gawyn that Rand killed his mother really just a peddler? Even Gawyn notes how odd it is that a peddler would happen upon their camp out in the middle of nowhere. Since we know he's been in the area, is it possibly Sammael trying to turn House Trakand against Rand?I think there's an RJ quote that he was just a peddler.

When Demandred reveals the DO's plan to Mesaana and the others, Mesaana thinks it's a gamble and will require a lot of luck. Does this plan refer to anything we see later on in the series?It may be handing the Seal over to Rand, with a weave on it so that it can be found again (similar to what Moiraine did with the coins she handed out in TEOTW).

Why does it take well over a year to reincarnate Aginor and Balthamel, but Ishamael and Lanfear come back much more quickly?Narrative imperative. Or, alternatively, the DO was better prepared to handle such eventualities the second time around.

If "car" means chief (as in car'a'carn), what does jo-car translate to?"Jo" is an abbreviation for Jennifer Lopez ...

Do we know if Taim was always a DF, or if he just switched sides after he was freed? If he wasn't always a DF, how did he escape the taint? Is it possible he didn't have the spark, and the Shadow taught him/recruited him shortly before the series started?Demandred recruited him, after he was released from captivity.

We know he wasn't Demandred or anything, but what is it about Taim that makes "LTT" want to not trust him/kill him?May be Demandred's influence.

Why did Taim give the seal to Rand? It seems like a big thing for the DO to give up just so Taim could earn Rand's trust.See before.
Plus, there are other indications that the DO didn't always want those Seals broken. Moghedien ignored the one she saw in Tanchico too, you may remember.

This may tie in with the LTT wanting to kill Taim thing, but is there any evidence that Taim is a new Forsaken from the start? I forget if Taim mentions in aMoL when he was chosen. Anyway, some of LTT's ramblings ("Kill him! Kill them all!") might make a bit more sense if he (ie Rand subconsciously) thought that Taim was a Forsaken.See before.

Taim mentions Rand's luck a few times. First he says "You seem to have luck enough for ten men." Then he says "You do seem to have the Dark One's own luck." This is odd for a couple reasons. One, he's barely known Rand for ten minutes when he says all this. And two, nothing all that extraordinary happened to make Taim say it. Sure, Damer Flinn tested positive for channeling (Taim's first try), but it's a bit of an overreaction on Taim's part to go on about Rand's luck like he does. Unless he already knows Rand, or has heard rumors of him...He undoubtedly has heard rumours of him, and he probably prefers Demandred's belief that it is a matter of luck over the assumption that Rand is that much more competent than he (either Taim or Demandred, take your pick) ever was.

Taim is literally shocked when Rand mentions a Forsaken might try to infiltrate the BT. Is this because he already knows about the plan involving Aginor/Dashiva?It could also be because at that point, he considers himself to be an infiltration plot by a Forsaken.

It's mentioned that Rand is special to the Maidens because he's the only child of a Maiden they've known to be a Maiden's child. But wouldn't they find it odd when a non-Maiden suddenly has a baby without getting pregnant? They'd have to assume that was also a child of a Maiden.
Do they know where babies come from? :p

jacob
11-03-2014, 04:11 AM
I am also going to re read the entire series.

rand
01-30-2017, 11:30 PM
I'm rereading again and figured I'd resurrect this thread for it. I doubt I'll go into as much detail as before though.


When Rand first sees the Myrddraal in chapter 1 of tEotW, Tam goes to check for the horse's footprints before Rand stops him and they continue on their way. But those footprints should be there. Now, Tam seemed pretty convinced that Rand and the other boys had in fact seen something by the time they head back home, but does anyone think Tam was checking for footprints on their way back and found them? It's specifically mentioned that he checked the ground at their farm, so you'd think Tam would have thought to check the ground near where Rand originally spotted the Fade. It might explain a little more why Tam would whip out his sword as soon as they got back.


It's mentioned that Tam and Rand are considered odd for being two men living alone (as opposed to a multi-generational, sprawling farmhouse). Does Tam have parents/relatives in Emond's Field? Does Rand have all kinds of apparently estranged cousins, etc? (Sackville-al Thors?)

rand
02-26-2017, 11:46 PM
I don't really remember, is the Dragon's Fang being printed on doors still a thing after book 1? I mean, I'm sure it's mentioned but it's kind of a big deal in tEotW and seems much less so in later book from what I remember.

GonzoTheGreat
02-27-2017, 03:11 AM
It is overused and thus loses most of its effectiveness. This is shown in book 4 (TSR), when the Whitecloaks are annoyed that the villagers mostly ignore the Dragon's Fang.

rand
03-04-2017, 10:16 PM
It's a common event in fantasy books (and I assume in history) for a host to offer guests "bread and salt." Is this just a general term for "food," or are guests literally served salt sandwiches?

Kimon
03-04-2017, 11:55 PM
It's a common event in fantasy books (and I assume in history) for a host to offer guests "bread and salt." Is this just a general term for "food," or are guests literally served salt sandwiches?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_salt

rand
03-07-2017, 12:41 AM
So does Ishamael actually have the memories of all his past lives in his head, or does he just act like he does because, as a philosopher, he's figured out what his past lives have gone through? When he blathers on about how he and Rand have fought countless times in countless ages, this doesn't necessarily mean he remembers it all. I always just chalked most of it up to arrogance/madness. But in Perrin's dream in the Tinker camp in tEotW, he says this upon seeing the wolf in the dream:
"Is this what you have to protect you? Well, I have faced this before. Many times before."
This seems to indicate that Ishamael does, in fact, remember wolfbrothers in his past lives. On the other hand, assuming Ishamael knows about the Wolf King propheces, he could, I guess, still be talking out of his ass here, pretending he knows all about wolfbrothers from past lives when he really only knows that, theoretically, he should have known about them in his infinite past lives. Still, the fact that he sees the wolf and instantly knows what Perrin is, definitely seems to point to him having memories of wolfbrothers in past lives.

GonzoTheGreat
03-07-2017, 03:45 AM
Ishamael no doubt was good at bluffing.
But he may also have gotten a lot of information from the DO. After all, what better way to seduce a philosopher than offering the wisdom of the Ages?

rand
06-21-2017, 01:44 PM
In tSR it's kind of a running bit that Elayne can't figure out how to wear a veil in Tanchico without it getting caught in her mouth. I've read tSR over a dozen times probably, but this was the first time I realized that Elayne's eating her veil because her nose is always in the air. At least, I assume this is what RJ was getting at.

Kind of just a random thought...

rand
06-22-2017, 01:02 AM
And another thing from tSR:

It's repeated over and over again that people who accidentally dream themselves into TAR risk serious injury or death in their brief moments there. Yet in Ch. 23, the Wise Ones begin instructing Egwene on TAR, and Bair says this:
"Many people brush the World of Dreams in their sleep. Because they only brush against it, they wake with aches or pains where they should have broken bones or mortal hurts.
The WOs should know better than anyone...so someone in TAR by accident who dies there apparently won't necessarily die in real life. Though admittedly it seems impossible for the WOs to know this for sure.

Weird Harold
06-22-2017, 02:50 AM
And another thing from tSR:

It's repeated over and over again that people who accidentally dream themselves into TAR risk serious injury or death in their brief moments there. Yet in Ch. 23, the Wise Ones begin instructing Egwene on TAR, and Bair says this:

The WOs should know better than anyone...so someone in TAR by accident who dies there apparently won't necessarily die in real life. Though admittedly it seems impossible for the WOs to know this for sure.
Those aren't necessarily contradictory statements.

Some people brush against T'A'R and only suffere aches and pains. Others actually enter T'A'R and suffer more permanent damage.

Some very few enter T'A'R deeply enough that they can die from injuries taken in their dreams.

rand
08-18-2017, 12:50 AM
Anyone else ever notice that there's a rumor that Rand is Morgase and Thom's bastard in LoC?

LoC Chapter 16
"Few know what to believe," Ellorien said stiffly. Spots of color still stained her cheeks. "People say many things, most foolish."

"Such as?" [Rand] directed the question at her, but it was Dyelin who answered, looking him straight in the eye.

"That you will fight in the Last Battle and kill the Dark One. That you are a false Dragon, or an Aes Sedai puppet, or both. That you're Morgase's illegitimate son, or a Tairen High Lord, or an Aielman." She frowned again for a moment, but did not stop. "That you are the son of an Aes Sedai by the Dark One. That you are the Dark One, or else the Creator clothed in flesh. That you will destroy the world, save it, subjugate it, bring a new Age. As many tales as there are mouths. Most say you killed Morgase. Many add Elayne. They say your proclamation is a mask to hide your crimes."


Since Morgase would've been married to Taringail at the time of Rand's birth, the rumor must be that Thom is the secret father, right?

GonzoTheGreat
08-18-2017, 03:29 AM
Not necessarily. Tam al'Thor would be another possibility, and having him as the father would make his adoption of Rand more understandable. Of course, not all that many people knew about Tam at the time, which sort of weakens this idea a bit. Then again, the rumour could simply make Tam an Aielman, and have him go west instead of east after Laman's death. Letting him be a Tairen High Lord at the same time would be a neat trick, but I don't see how to manage that.

Terez
08-22-2017, 05:26 PM
Anyone else ever notice that there's a rumor that Rand is Morgase and Thom's bastard in LoC?
We always just took that as a reference to Rand's visibly Andoran heritage, which was a plot point in LOC, since that's when his actual mother's identity was revealed.