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Tollingtoy
08-04-2014, 07:58 AM
My father in law asked me an interesting question I couldn't answer--maybe someone here can

Why not make cuendillar armor?

Weird Harold
08-04-2014, 08:38 AM
My father in law asked me an interesting question I couldn't answer--maybe someone here can

Why not make cuendillar armor?
Because you can't make anything articulated -- it turns into a single piece off cuendillar, like the harbor chains.

To make Cundillar armor, each piece would have to be fitted to the recipient and converted to cuendillar separately. A task that would take an armorer as long as making regular armor, plus tie up a relatively powerful Aes Sedai as well.

Cuendillar armor would also have to be plate armor because chainmail couldn't be assembled ring by ring or converted in one weave.

GonzoTheGreat
08-04-2014, 09:55 AM
Make cuendillar helmets. Those would already provide helpful protection.
Make (big) cuendillar shields, and have those carried by people protecting others from arrows, balefire and other flying nuisances.
Make cuendillar breast plates, and fit those to other (more conventional) armor with leather straps.

Edited to add:
Make cuendillar ear plugs, to protect against Draghkar.

The Unreasoner
08-04-2014, 11:32 AM
The thing about cuendillar armor is that it could be paper thin. Scale mail, breastplate, helmet..,and the thinner the material, the easier it could be to convert. And it protects against balefire, deathgates, etc...

The obvious answer to the OQ is that it would be too useful, acrewing up the plot.

Side note: the dom band was cuendillar, and was somehow articulated maybe converted piece by piece, held in a way that they didn`t touch. Or wrap it in paper.

I want to know why they don't make cuendillar swords. I have ceramic knives at home sharp as hell, though annoyingly brittle.

GonzoTheGreat
08-04-2014, 12:21 PM
I want to know why they don't make cuendillar swords. I have ceramic knives at home sharp as hell, though annoyingly brittle.
Read and find out:
Rand had lent him as many more Asha'man as he could spare, if only because—as soon as they'd heard—he'd had dozens of Maidens presenting themselves and demanding Power-wrought spearheads. It only makes sense, Rand al'Thor, Beralna had explained. His smiths can make four spearheads for every sword. She'd grimaced saying the word "sword," as if it tasted like seawater.

The Unreasoner
08-04-2014, 01:15 PM
Thats no answer. Rand's sense of obligation to the Maidens and Tarmon Gaidon imposed time constraints concerning normal Power wrought weapons don't explain why no one made a cuendillar blade, in either age we have info on. Even power wrought weapons can break, Rand's did in TGH. Maybe it was TP, idr, but balefire almost certainly could destroy the one and not the other.

Sarevok
08-06-2014, 05:12 AM
Another point on the cuendillar armor question:
Remember this was in a time whith much larger industrial capacity, which presumably meant things like grenades and bombs were available alongside fireballs thrown by Aes Sedai.
Armor is nice against swords, but it's less usefull if the enemy can throw mass destruction around at will. Armour is nice, but if your face might get melted off, it may be better to not wear any armor and be more agile instead.

The Unreasoner
08-06-2014, 11:29 AM
Paper thin cuendillar (or even thinner) wouldnt inhibit motion much. And alongside grenades and whatever was balefire and deathgates. And grenades have shrapnel.

GonzoTheGreat
08-06-2014, 11:47 AM
Shrapnel gets stopped by armour, if it hits it (and the armour is strong enough). Blast waves, though, would be more of a problem.

The death gates would be a good issue, though. Supply some Trollocs (or Myrddraal) with cuendillar swords, and they can cut up all the death gates without being harmed by them. Then the rest of the horde can follow, and the Shadow wins.

rand
08-06-2014, 01:39 PM
Regarding the cuendillar swords...I don't know much about swords, but they should be flexible, right? Cuendillarizing them would most likely get rid of the flexibilty. This might not matter much for knives, spearheads, axes, etc., but I'm not sure cuendillar swords would really work.

The Unreasoner
08-06-2014, 02:14 PM
Flexible? Some swords might be, but I don't see why it would be advantageous as a rule. They'd be thinner and lighter, but cuendillar could be made thin enough for arbitrary lightness. And I don't think the randland swords are flexible in any case. A cuendillar sword would almost be a lightsaber, if it's thin and sharp enough. Cut through almost anything, block balefire blasts, etc. Lightsabers, broadswords, katanas...none need to bend.

As for the cutting up deathgates, I think it would just block it, or be pushed aside. Though I do not know what would happen if someone slipped a cuendillar ring over the silvery line of light that precedes a gateway.

The Unreasoner
08-06-2014, 02:19 PM
On that note, if someone constructed a cuendillar door/tunnel through a large gateway, would that hold it open indefinitely? Because that introduces a host of interesting possibilities. Aside from the ones BS brought up when it came to tying off gateways, you could have unlimited energy from a waterwheel that had its water continuously replaced.

Weird Harold
08-06-2014, 07:53 PM
Paper thin cuendillar (or even thinner) wouldnt inhibit motion much. And alongside grenades and whatever was balefire and deathgates. And grenades have shrapnel.
Just how many cuendillar makers are there in the world? Most of them we know of take hours to convert one goblet.

There's also the additional armorer's time to make iron armor thinner and custom fit pieces to the recipients (because you can't adjust or resize cuendillar)

Cuendillar was an expensive luxury even in the AOL, not because it wasn't versatile but because very few Aes Sedai could make it or devote time to it from other duties or interests.

The Unreasoner
08-06-2014, 09:18 PM
I'm not asking why no armies have standard issue cuendillar armor and weapons. I'm asking why we haven't seen a single instance of either. Although swords could be done easily in bulk by Egwene. Take a bit of iron, shape it with the power into one very fat sword, then slice off paper thin pieces (or thinner) with a gateway mandolin. Then convert at your leisure. One day of dedicated effort could arm a hundred soldiers with swords better than any on earth before or since.

ShadowbaneX
08-06-2014, 09:38 PM
I think armour probably wouldn't be worth the effort. It's been a while, but didn't the links on the chain in Tar Valon fuse when Egwene did her thing? If that's the case then doing chain mail or anything of the like is now a pain. Plate could still be done, but there's a problem with that, it still needs straps and the like to hold it on, so there's still a failure point.

Weapons aren't a bad idea, but in some cases, like say axes & hammers, having a heavy head a bonus, not a detriment. If it can hold an edge, that also works, but if you think about it, they've already got power-forged weaponry, that's, while probably not as durable as cuendillar is still pretty useful.

No, if I want to make anything out of cuendillar it's cannon & rifle barrels. Imagine a squeeze-bore artillery piece. The general idea is an artillery or rifle barrel that is larger at the loading end and smaller at the naughty end. When the round or shell is fired out under enormous pressure and is actually deformed as the barrel gets smaller, resulting in much higher velocity, so can travel further and have more kinetic force/penetrating power when it arrives at it's target.

Or, you know, tanks. Tanks could work too.

Frenzy
08-07-2014, 01:27 AM
I'm not asking why no armies have standard issue cuendillar armor and weapons. I'm asking why we haven't seen a single instance of either.

Probably for the same reason modern police officers don't wear kevlar bunny suits.

And a super light sword wouldn't be all that useful because no matter how sharp it is, it wouldn't have enough mass/momentum to cut through much.

Weird Harold
08-07-2014, 02:09 AM
Although swords could be done easily in bulk by Egwene. ... Then convert at your leisure. One day of dedicated effort could arm a hundred soldiers with swords better than any on earth before or since.

When does the Amyrlin have time for "One day of dedicated effort?" Egwene can't convert swords "in bulk" because they'd fuse together; each sword would require a separate weave.

That assumes such thin, light, swords would be of any use; it certainly wouldn't help that each would have to be inspected closely and sharpened before conversion because once converted, they're fixed forever with every dent, ding, and warp.

Also, FWIW, a good sword is flexible (in part) so that it doesn't transmit the shock of impact back to the swordsman's arm.

ShadowbaneX
08-07-2014, 06:50 AM
And a super light sword wouldn't be all that useful because no matter how sharp it is, it wouldn't have enough mass/momentum to cut through much.

George Lucas would disagree...:p

Hugh the Hand
08-13-2014, 05:20 PM
I think time and effort was the problem in "modern" times. As for the AOL who knows what they had or did not have. Plus as we can see, even in the AOL they did not think of everything that would be helpful in war, such as using gateways as windows to view the field.

A light sword would have its uses, ie rapiers or foils.

As for the AOLers not using armor or finding it not usful due to bombs, OP, etc, we see them wearing armor in the Glass Columns chapters.

ShadowbaneX
08-14-2014, 06:56 AM
I'm not saying that it wouldn't be useful, I'm saying that if I'm in charge I'm having the resources put towards artillery first. Did we ever figure out the effect range of a Channeler is? I'm gonna guess it's not nearly the same as the effective range of an artillery piece.

I'm still disappointed that Frenzy didn't think of the Star Wars reference though.

GonzoTheGreat
08-14-2014, 08:09 AM
When it comes to the effective range of channelers: make a Gateway, channel an attack weave through it, and close the Gateway. The maximum range they can manage with this is probably limited by the size of the planet they're on, though some channelers are suggested to have interplanetary capabilities.

What is the maximum range of black powder artillery?
I'm not quite sure that it would be simple to achieve accurate intercontinental abilities with this, but I've never actually tried that, yet.

Hugh the Hand
08-14-2014, 08:40 AM
The use of heartstone for cannon barrels would be amazing. I forgot to comment on that part.

As for the effective range of black powder, who knows in our Age we have no indestructible material to see how much of the stuff can be stuffed in there.

And yes, using a gateway the range of a channeler is indefinite, however, using a gateway the range of a cannon is indefinite.

I always thought the range of a channeler was basically how far he can see

GonzoTheGreat
08-14-2014, 10:05 AM
I always thought the range of a channeler was basically how far he can see
For most that is true, but it seems to be at least in part a psychological limit.

From what I remember, there's a channeler who can't channel beyond some arbitrary range, even when he (or she, not sure of that) can see further. That is supposed to be the result of a block.
On the other hand, RJ has also said that blind people could also channel, and then would use other senses to direct and aim the flows. So in theory at least, a sighted channeler need not be limited to what is visible either.

Weird Harold
08-14-2014, 01:27 PM
For most that is true, but it seems to be at least in part a psychological limit.

From what I remember, there's a channeler who can't channel beyond some arbitrary range, even when he (or she, not sure of that) can see further. That is supposed to be the result of a block.
On the other hand, RJ has also said that blind people could also channel, and then would use other senses to direct and aim the flows. So in theory at least, a sighted channeler need not be limited to what is visible either.
IIRC, that was an asha'man who could not Channel further than he could see; all the rest could target lightening or fireballs into areas they didn't have a direct line of sight to.

Boli
08-21-2014, 06:55 AM
Knight's in full plate armour in the middle ages had arrows and swords bounce off them *but* they were still killed in battle.

Concussive force was transferred through the steel (e.g. bludgeoning attacks) - A trolloc with a big axe swinging at a guy in full Cuendillar armour would still kill him. Without full neck supports his neck would be broken - with them you are looking at shattered shoulder blades and vertebrae.

Then lets not forget the weak points where an "arrow through the eye slit" would kill in plate armour as much as in Cuendillar armour as in steel.

One thing you have got to note that all these regiments and soldiers fighting there has only been ONE mention of shields (to hide behind with Mat's Dragon Crossbowmen); it is all polearms and lances.

Basic armour (Chest + Helm) is given to cavalry and well equipped pike - but no shields, to help against missile fire but that's it. Put simply one major MAJOR lesson learnt from the age of legends is it is better to be avoiding the trolloc blow than to absorb it.

The sword fighting techniques even emphasise 2handed over 1handed - there are no "Roman" legions with body shields and gladius. Using a shield to defend yourself against a trolloc attack would break your arm and leave you vulnerable to the next attack; the same is true with all-encompassing armour; multiple high strength attacks will break through heavier armour by concussive force; so even if the armour is unmarked the body inside will be battered, bruised and possibly dead.

All through the series they talk about "when they met trollocs on an equal footing the men died"; armour, weapons and armies developed from manoeuvre; fast strikes and superiority of ranged attacks. this is why the pike is so popular and one reason the Aiel are so powerful (fast moving, strike force with better close weapons than most infantry. Pike may be great against trollocs and horse... but not foot.

That said... Anyone else thinking "Cuendillar Tanks?" - or in fact Cuendillar pipes and boilers for super high pressure steam :D

GonzoTheGreat
08-21-2014, 07:09 AM
How about some cuendillar barbed wire to lay in front of the charging Trollocs?

ShadowbaneX
08-21-2014, 06:56 PM
If it was thin enough it wouldn't need barbs.

GonzoTheGreat
08-22-2014, 03:48 AM
True, but then it would be more difficult to handle even without a battle going on around it.

ShadowbaneX
08-22-2014, 06:30 AM
Well, it's more of a trap, so it's sorta a pre-battle sorta thing. Still, even in razor/barbed-wire form it's more of an area denial sorta thing, so still not the sorta thing you want to be laying down with trollocs stumbling around.

GonzoTheGreat
08-22-2014, 07:59 AM
But if all of it is thin enough to cut, then it would also cut through your hands (or whatever else you used to handle it) while you were laying it in position. With barbed wire, there are parts of it that are safe to handle, if you have the time to be careful.

And yes, it is an area denial tool, not an offensive weapon. It would have been quite useful during the main part of the battle of Shayol Ghul, I think.

ShadowbaneX
08-22-2014, 09:59 AM
But if all of it is thin enough to cut, then it would also cut through your hands (or whatever else you used to handle it) while you were laying it in position. With barbed wire, there are parts of it that are safe to handle, if you have the time to be careful.

And yes, it is an area denial tool, not an offensive weapon. It would have been quite useful during the main part of the battle of Shayol Ghul, I think.

Or you could build in handles...even with a little groove near the top of them that you could wrap the wire around so that it's more easily portable. They could double as stakes that you can use to embed into the ground or secure at various heights.

GonzoTheGreat
08-22-2014, 10:55 AM
Or you could build in handles...even with a little groove near the top of them that you could wrap the wire around so that it's more easily portable. They could double as stakes that you can use to embed into the ground or secure at various heights.
But that would require someone being sensible, and this is the WoT, you know.

ShadowbaneX
08-23-2014, 12:49 PM
Or perhaps just sensible posters.

Uno
08-23-2014, 08:58 PM
Well, I'm inclined to think that RJ just didn't want to deal with that issue, but as regards the Age of Legends, it could be justified by any number of complicating factors we just don't know about, such as exotic interactions between cuendillar and the effects of stresses on the Pattern caused by the Dark One touching the world or by indiscriminate use of balefire (or both). Besides, it's hardly unusual that military technologies that sound brilliant in theory don't work well under field conditions. You typically don't discover that until you have your soldiers test them, which, for all we know, they may have done during the Age of Legends.

GonzoTheGreat
08-24-2014, 03:28 AM
One drawback might be that Trollocs and Myrddraal could also use such armour, though it would not always be a very good fit. Then those would have a certain level of OP resistance, which would be very inconvenient. The Shadow channelers might not be inclined to make the stuff, but the Trollocs would probably be willing to pick it up of battlefields, so if the Light made it then it could still find its way to the Shadow.

Weird Harold
08-24-2014, 08:29 AM
One drawback might be that Trollocs and Myrddraal could also use such armour, though it would not always be a very good fit. Then those would have a certain level of OP resistance, which would be very inconvenient. The Shadow channelers might not be inclined to make the stuff, but the Trollocs would probably be willing to pick it up of battlefields, so if the Light made it then it could still find its way to the Shadow.
That would be a bit like NBA players stealing coats from a Kindergarten class. :roll:

GonzoTheGreat
08-24-2014, 08:48 AM
Yeah, but those NBA fellows might do that if those coats would make them impervious to (most) attacks. Narg smart.

The Unreasoner
08-24-2014, 05:59 PM
A spool of cuendillar wire wouldn't bend into position, would it? As for things like concussive force, it may be possible to build a suit of scale armor that interlock in such a way that most force is distributed throughout the suit, rippling around the person, to be absorbed by a link when the ripples meet on the opposite side.

It would be really, really hard though.

What about a ter'angreal that you feed a thin iron chain, and then it shoots it out and turns to a cuendillar tangle after a delay? Sort of like a web shooter.

ShadowbaneX
08-24-2014, 06:59 PM
that's a good point, even stupidly thing cuendillar might well be well be unflexible...unless they're small links or something. Still, working a bit too hard now.

As for the ter'angreal, I suppose that something like that would work, although, like land mines, once it's deployed, what do you do once you don't need it any more?

We're not saying that various armour types of armour aren't possible isn't possible, just not likely worth the effort...or requiring lots of effort (for instance, chain mail) or requiring compromise (cuendillar plates would work for plate mail, but would need staps not of cuendillar to hold it together), etc.

Davian93
08-25-2014, 10:14 AM
What would Cuendillar armor be used to defend against?

Any channeler would just tie off a weave around the wearer that cuts off their air supply or even easier, just stops their heart. For the non-channeling things it would defend against, good regular armor would work almost as well and wouldn't take that massive amount of effort to create.

Any channeler wouldn't really be slowed down by it anyway making it of marginal value at best.

GonzoTheGreat
08-25-2014, 11:30 AM
It protects against velociraptor attacks.

Uno
08-25-2014, 03:44 PM
What would Cuendillar armor be used to defend against?

Any channeler would just tie off a weave around the wearer that cuts off their air supply or even easier, just stops their heart. For the non-channeling things it would defend against, good regular armor would work almost as well and wouldn't take that massive amount of effort to create.

Any channeler wouldn't really be slowed down by it anyway making it of marginal value at best.

It would still provide impenetrable protection against projectiles and shrapnel, as well as direct assaults with thrusting weapons. That's pretty good. I mean, there's a reason why modern body armour has replaced old timey breastplates.

The Unreasoner
08-25-2014, 05:00 PM
Can weaves pass through cuendillar? While you could still smother the person, getting a heart stopping weave through the gaps might be tricky.

Davian93
08-26-2014, 10:35 AM
It would still provide impenetrable protection against projectiles and shrapnel, as well as direct assaults with thrusting weapons. That's pretty good. I mean, there's a reason why modern body armour has replaced old timey breastplates.

The cost-to-value ratio is way against it though.

Security/safety is always a cost-benefit analysis. In this scenario, the value over regular good armor simply isn't there. You could build the most secure building on earth but the value for that level of protection simply isn't there. For the people it would be worth protecting (say someone like Rand, LTT, Egwene), they wouldn't need it as their channeling would protect them. Everyone else is pretty much replaceable. For a great general like Mat or Davram Bashere, they're better off wearing a foxhead medallion or simply surrounding themselves with guards and not leading from the front.

Woohoo, got to apply my real-world knowledge/experience to TL for once.

GonzoTheGreat
08-26-2014, 11:19 AM
Then again, Demandred would've been wise if he had been wearing cuendillar armor. :p

Edited to add: it would also be quite useful for assassins. Makes them harder to kill, thus increasing the chance that they will live long enough to get their target.

The Unreasoner
08-28-2014, 06:08 PM
You know, one of the things that always bugged me about cuendillar is how everyone thinks it absorbs and is made stronger by forces directed at it. How the hell would they know? And if it was true, why not channel a trickle at the weakened seals to reinforce them? Granted, the seals are obviously a special case (since, in theory, they are in sustained contact with the TP). Do we know what the other weakness of cuendillar is?

Anyway, I was thinking about the fact that cuendillar is said to absorb force and be strengthened, instead of just being described as unbreakable. It seems like an odd leap to make. But what if they have evidence for it? Maybe cuendillar does absorb force. Maybe if you made one of those things with the metal balls suspended by wires that go back and forth like a pendulum with cuendillar balls, it wouldn't work. Maybe they don't transfer energy the way normal substances do, and cuendillar dominoes wpuld not work. That has some serious implications for cuendillar armor. If true.

Bane Darkwulf
11-09-2014, 10:11 PM
I want to know why they don't make cuendillar swords. I have ceramic knives at home sharp as hell, though annoyingly brittle.

Swords have to have a certain level of flexibility to them, otherwise they shatter, not a problem with heartstone, or they wrench out of your hand. Axes and spearheads and long knives, sure, maybe even arrowheads. A sword though needs to be able to bend and spring right back.

Giantevilhead
01-20-2015, 05:22 AM
Egwene and the Aes Sedai can't make weapons because of the three oaths. "To make no weapon with which one man may kill another."

They could probably make armor but shields might conflict with the oaths.

But the fact that they know that it can block balefire suggests that people have thought about using cuendillar for armor.

As for the AOL, maybe they did make cuendillar weapons and armor but it's all buried. Almost everything from the AOL was lost during the Breaking. The largest collection of cuendillar in the entire series fit inside a single room.

GonzoTheGreat
01-20-2015, 05:33 AM
Swords have to have a certain level of flexibility to them, otherwise they shatter, not a problem with heartstone, or they wrench out of your hand. Axes and spearheads and long knives, sure, maybe even arrowheads. A sword though needs to be able to bend and spring right back.
Why?
That only seems an issue if the sword doesn't cut through things.

Make a 5 foot long razor blade, and turn it into cuendillar. Then do this again, but now with the possibility of attaching a handle, so that it is actually useful.
Then you can use the "hand and a half razor blade" to cut Trollocs and Myrddraal into pieces without having to worry about bending and such.

Alternatively, make a really solid bar of iron, give it some semblance of an edge, and maybe a point too, and you have a longsword. That substitutes mass and more mass for subtlety like bending.

Rand al'Fain
01-25-2015, 02:38 AM
Swords have to have a certain level of flexibility to them, otherwise they shatter, not a problem with heartstone, or they wrench out of your hand. Axes and spearheads and long knives, sure, maybe even arrowheads. A sword though needs to be able to bend and spring right back.

Shatter? It depends on what the sword is made from and how it was tempered. For instance, a bronze sword would not shatter, but bend or even just snap. A steel longsword would chip, maybe bend a bit, but not shatter. A certain kind of iron though will shatter, I just can't remember which kind.

Oh, and to the person talking about scale maail armor abosrbing the impact from something like a warhammer, that's not going to happend without the wearer taking massive internal damage. Scale mail, while more flexible than plate armor and more protective than regular mail, would no sooner stop the damage from a warhammer than a leather jerkin would stop a crossbow bolt. It would simply crush the place it hit.

Joram
06-02-2015, 09:56 AM
Cuendillar is rare even for the Age of Legends. Despite their rarity, Tear, Ebou Dar, Tar Valon and Rhuidean all have large caches of Ter'angreal. In all there are probably hundreds of them lying around. Cuendillar on the other hand, the largest collection in the world could fit in one room, in fact the High Lord had his entire collection in one cabinet. Given the fact that Cuendillar is completely indestructible except to the DO himself working at it for 3000 years with the TP, it's rarity is unbelievable.

That tells me that either it's creation was restricted, or it was a very uncommonly known weave. I'm guessing it wasn't a matter of it being so unknown. My thought is that given it's properties, and the nature of the society in the AOL, it was probably restricted, much like Compulsion.

Think about it... you have a material that cannot be destroyed. If they let people make it indiscriminately they would eventually be up to their eyeballs in Cuendillar that could never be altered, or gotten rid of. It would be like nuclear waste.

Weapons of Cuendillar would not be useful like others have mentioned, not enough mass, no flexibility, etc. Armor on the other hand would be very useful. It could be that Jordan just didn't consider it, but I'm betting it is more likely that there was a societal/cultural taboo against making cuendillar except with special permission.

There is also the fact that cuendillar took direct attention of an Aes Sedai, where as the AOL was an advanced society that used modern or even futuristic manufacturing techniques. Warder Cloak materials are made by Ter'Angreal, it is likely that they were able to mass produce the armor and weapons that their troops used for the most part. Aside from the cultural bias against making Cuendillar that I speculate existed, it was probably a simple ROI equation, mass produce armor and weapons, vs taking up the time and energy of Aes Sedai to do nothing but turn pieces into Cuendillar.

GonzoTheGreat
06-02-2015, 12:34 PM
Consider an AS such as Egwene. She could have turned an entire armor set for herself into cuendillar in something like a second or two, maybe less. Would that really not be cost effective on a battleground where balefire is flying in all directions?

Hugh the Hand
06-02-2015, 02:08 PM
Plus a man, who often are stronger in fire and stone, would in theory be able to make it faster. Or at least close to as fast as Egwene

Weird Harold
06-03-2015, 05:23 AM
Consider an AS such as Egwene. She could have turned an entire armor set for herself into cuendillar in something like a second or two, maybe less. Would that really not be cost effective on a battleground where balefire is flying in all directions?
Armor with all the joints welded together isn't very useful. Cuendillar is also pretty much impossible to adjust the fit even if she took the time to convert each individual component separately.

A smith/armorer still has to construct and fit the armor before it is converted, so even if Egwene does the conversion there's no time saved over conventional armor.

GonzoTheGreat
06-03-2015, 09:22 AM
But even if the joints aren't cuendillar themselves, then it would still be possible to make the armor far more useful than any non-cuendillar type could be.

The fact that it would take a craftsman (or a CAD robot, if you have a high enough technology level) a while to make such stuff isn't particularly relevant if that time is going to be spend on making armor anyway.

If every Warder had had a cuendillar covered shield (that covering could have been very thin), then far fewer AS would have been killed during the fighting. Wouldn't that have been worth a bit of hassle in making those shields?

The Unreasoner
06-03-2015, 10:55 AM
What about cuendillar-plated tanks or apcs?

Immunity to balefire is not an insignificant advantage. Yet it doesn't seem anyone in either age we know of found it worth that much. Maybe it was just a result of no-one using balefire, but they did at one point.

I do get a laugh at AoL'ers being worried about being buried by overproduction of cuendillar. It's a funny nd image, someone stubbing their toe on yet another pile of indestructible garbage and swearing their asses off.

Davian93
06-03-2015, 11:15 AM
But even if the joints aren't cuendillar themselves, then it would still be possible to make the armor far more useful than any non-cuendillar type could be.

The fact that it would take a craftsman (or a CAD robot, if you have a high enough technology level) a while to make such stuff isn't particularly relevant if that time is going to be spend on making armor anyway.

If every Warder had had a cuendillar covered shield (that covering could have been very thin), then far fewer AS would have been killed during the fighting. Wouldn't that have been worth a bit of hassle in making those shields?

The very obvious answer is "The author never thought of it".


So...yeah.

GonzoTheGreat
06-03-2015, 12:19 PM
The very obvious answer is "The author never thought of it".
Alternative answer: he did think of it, but decided to pretend he hadn't because it would mess too much with the story.

Cuendillar armor would be of only limited value on Trollocs, since they would still be susceptible to deathgates.

Weird Harold
06-03-2015, 09:47 PM
But even if the joints aren't cuendillar themselves, then it would still be possible to make the armor far more useful than any non-cuendillar type could be.

Of course, any plans for cuendillar armor has to include the reality that out of all the female channelers Egwene could test, she could only find three that could convert iron to cuendillar in less than a couple of hours per piece: Egwene, Leanne, and Bode Cauthon.

All of the "plans" for cuendillar armor seem to assume Egwene's level of ability for mass production; the reality is that cuendillar was rare and expensive because each piece require at least several man-hours and more often man-days of channeling to produce.

GonzoTheGreat
06-04-2015, 04:17 AM
All of which ignores that Egwene could have spend an hour a day on making such armour, and could thereby have immensely improved the works of dozens of ordinary workers.

Look at how Perrin gets a bunch of Asha'man from Rand to help with making weapons:
The stirring wind carried the scent of campfires from Perrin's nearby camp and the sounds of smiths working on weapons. Rand had heard the stories: Power-wrought weapons discovered again. Perrin's men were working overtime, running his two Asha'man ragged, to make as many as possible.
Rand had lent him as many more Asha'man as he could spare, if only because—as soon as they'd heard—he'd had dozens of Maidens presenting themselves and demanding Power-wrought spearheads. It only makes sense, Rand al'Thor, Beralna had explained. His smiths can make four spearheads for every sword. She'd grimaced saying the word "sword," as if it tasted like seawater.Rand sees the advantage almost immediately. Perrin sees it. The Maidens see it. But in the whole of Tar Valon, either no one understands this or no one dares mention it to any AS.

It is, of course, believable, in that AS are very resistant to innovation, and even more resistant to getting suggestions for what to do from outsiders. So having them fail to do this is quite consistent with how they are portrayed throughout the books.

Zombie Sammael
06-04-2015, 07:45 AM
-bangs ahead against cuendillar wall-

Is this thread itself made of cuendillar or something?

Weird Harold
06-04-2015, 09:16 AM
Look at how Perrin gets a bunch of Asha'man from Rand to help with making weapons:...

Power-wrought weapons are NOT made of Cuendillar. Also is seems any Asha'man can make power-wrought weapons -- or at least add the "power" while conventional smiths add the "wrought."

Power-wrought weapons also don't require individual fitting where "armor" does; whether it is converted to cuendillar later or not.

GonzoTheGreat
06-04-2015, 09:43 AM
-bangs ahead against cuendillar wall-

Is this thread itself made of cuendillar or something?
You're only making it stronger, you know. :p

Power-wrought weapons are NOT made of Cuendillar. Also is seems any Asha'man can make power-wrought weapons -- or at least add the "power" while conventional smiths add the "wrought."True. Then again, at that point it doesn't seem as if any Asha'man knows how to make cuendillar, so their failure to do this is understandable, even acceptable. They do what they can as well as they can manage.

Power-wrought weapons also don't require individual fitting where "armor" does; whether it is converted to cuendillar later or not.
As Terry Pratchett (I think it was him) said about army-supplied armor: it came in "one size fits nobody".

Still, for a bunch of people (Mat, Lan, and other fighting commanders) making fitting armor and then turning it into really good armor would not seem unreasonable. Especially given the fact that such cuendillar armor could be made from thinner metal, which makes it easier to shape and lighter to wear.

Zombie Sammael
06-04-2015, 10:25 PM
You're only making it stronger, you know. :p

There is absolutely no way to test that claim and you know it, Gonzo!

NargsBrood
06-10-2015, 06:27 PM
This debate has been brought up many times in the past. I must admit that I am surprised by who the Theoryland proponents seem to be. Either they have changed their positions in this debate or they were quiet any other time I've seen this debate come up.

There is 1 main point that can be debated when it comes to Cuendillar Armor. Below I've listed 3 but we can cross #1 off the list because it is a non issue and #2 off the list because we don't have enough information.

1. That it can be done
2. Usefulness
3. Feasibility


1 - With a smidgen of creativity anyone can figure out how to convert chain mail to cuendillar without fusing the links together. This would likely be one of the more difficult pieces of armor to convert. I can't imagine it would be very difficult to figure out how to convert any piece of armor to cuendillar. This is a non issue and can be crossed off the list above.

2 - We cannot define this point because we do not know all of the properties of cuendillar. For example: Does cuendillar allow the transfer of energy? What is the relationship between friction and cuendillar? What is the difference in weight for a piece of iron before and after it is converted? etc...

That brings us to the remaining point. In order to properly debate it, some definition is required.

3 - Are we talking about equipping an entire army? Generals? Royalty? Warders? Also -- Who would be converting the armor? Aes Sedai? Asha'man?

The parameters of point #3 above can be manipulated any # of ways... even to a point where the armor would be feasible under various configurations.

GonzoTheGreat
06-11-2015, 03:44 AM
3 - Are we talking about equipping an entire army? Generals? Royalty? Warders?How about Forsaken?
They had some reason to worry about being killed, and presumably at least some of them would have known this weave.

Also -- Who would be converting the armor? Aes Sedai? Asha'man?
Dreadlords. They have to be useful for something, don't they?

balefired
06-18-2015, 01:08 AM
I was doing some re-reading and thought of cuendillar armor before seeing this thread.

I think a brigandine would be the way to best make cuendillar, with small plates fastened together with small bolts and top caps made of the same, worn over a thick as hell quilted gambeson.

Weird Harold
06-18-2015, 04:32 AM
I was doing some re-reading and thought of cuendillar armor before seeing this thread.

I think a brigandine would be the way to best make cuendillar, with small plates fastened together with small bolts and top caps made of the same, worn over a thick as hell quilted gambeson.
How many individual pieces would that entail?

Bear in mind that as far as we know, it takes roughly the same amount of time to convert a screw as it does a cuirass or a harbor chain and for most of Egwene's cuendillar weavers, that is a bit over one shift of cuendillar making.

Joram
06-30-2015, 04:30 PM
Rand sees the advantage almost immediately. Perrin sees it. The Maidens see it. But in the whole of Tar Valon, either no one understands this or no one dares mention it to any AS. - Gonzo

This seems to forget that all but Egwene and the other new recruits have sworn on the oath rod not to ever make weapons. The Tower has a thousand plus year tradition of not making weapons, it may not be that no one thought of it, as much as the fact that they were predisposed to shy away from the very idea.

It definitely would make sense to at least arm the Generals and warders and they probably could have done so had they made that a priority, but I don't think they would have. Also, keep in mind that when they had the leisure time to make it they didn't have the knowledge. Once they did have the knowledge they were pretty preoccupied. The lead up to the last battle was slow... slow... slow... and BAM there it was right in their faces.

As for the AOL AS, they didn't seem to have any compunction against making weapons and arming at least their officers with power wrought weapons, but again, given the evidence of how little cuendillar exists, I'd say it is likely that it's making was restricted.

The reality is that Jordan probably didn't consider it, or if he did chose to ignore it.

GonzoTheGreat
07-01-2015, 03:22 AM
This seems to forget that all but Egwene and the other new recruits have sworn on the oath rod not to ever make weapons. The Tower has a thousand plus year tradition of not making weapons, it may not be that no one thought of it, as much as the fact that they were predisposed to shy away from the very idea.
I am not talking about giving them weapons; I am talking about giving them shields and armour.

If the Warders had had cuendillar shields, then they could have protected themselves and their AS from just about anything including balefire with them. Now, as it was, dozens, maybe hundreds, of AS were killed with balefire because they could do nothing against it. Could those AS have done any good if they had survived? Almost certainly. Would they have done anything worthwhile if they had lived? That's less clear, what with them being AS and all, but I think the AS should have been willing to give it a try.

Zombie Sammael
07-01-2015, 06:39 AM
Does Cuendillar actually protect from BF in that way? It might be that while it resists balefire itself, anything cntained within or otherwise in the path of the BF still gets destroyed. Have we seen Cuendillar used to protect at all?

GonzoTheGreat
07-01-2015, 07:57 AM
No. Would it be safe to extrapolate from that ignorance?

After her fight with Moghedien and Jeaine Caide, Nynaeve failed to do a proper investigation of the effects of the cuendillar figurines that had been temporarily caught in the balefire beam.

greatwolf
09-24-2015, 05:23 PM
The very obvious answer is "The author never thought of it".


So...yeah.

I doubt that very much. Rj was a soldier and he knows what it means to have bullets zipping all about. They would have have loved cuendillar shields in Vietnam, or even just kelvar. I think the reasons why we hadn't seen any attempt as of kod were far more practical.
One problem is spies. If Egwene and co tried to make cuendillar shields ahead of TLB, how will the shadow react? produce their own shields? kidnap the AS that are supposed to make them? Or would Egwene even be able to think of it with Arangar tampering with her head?
The pattern could have come up with a solution and maybe that was the direction it was heading but other things would have to come first including rooting out the dfs.
The other problem is that the cuendillar seals had been broken. so it would be necessary to be sure it wouldn't be a massive waste of effort and a source of false hope.
The foxhead was actually better but Rand also knew weaves that could protect against the use of the OP. If the dfs had been rooted out, he could have passed on the weaves and given the FoL a better chance.

maleshub
05-15-2016, 01:40 PM
Hmmm ... initial thinking is that armor doesn't protect from an arrow to the eye or a sword thrust in any opening. And it won't protect from an OP weave that burns the body or stops the heart. At the end of the day it is using a very expensive material for a mundane tool.

GonzoTheGreat
05-16-2016, 02:15 AM
An arrow to the eye is cheating. Plus, Myrddraal have a solution for that problem (Mat did that half way), so it is only an issue for the less competent anyway.
And while OP weaves to stop the heart could be a problem, they would only work if they can penetrate the armor in the first place. Since cuendillar would stop them, such a weave would have to sneak in through any opening in that armor, and I doubt many of those weaves are designed for such acrobatics.

maleshub
05-16-2016, 03:10 PM
An arrow to the eye is cheating. Plus, Myrddraal have a solution for that problem (Mat did that half way), so it is only an issue for the less competent anyway.
And while OP weaves to stop the heart could be a problem, they would only work if they can penetrate the armor in the first place. Since cuendillar would stop them, such a weave would have to sneak in through any opening in that armor, and I doubt many of those weaves are designed for such acrobatics.

I understand plate armor as separate plate pieces covering exposed body parts, not full casts to cover the whole body or body part. Say leg armor greaves cover the front of the leg whereas the calfs are totally exposed. Same goes for arms (i.e. armpit if a soldier raises his arm), thighs. This is essential to allow mobility and reduce hindrance to using weapons as much as possible. That way a weave doesn't have to be highly agile to pass the armor. Fire under a soldier's feet would still burn non-cuendellar covered areas; and shrapnel could still hit exposed body parts.

GonzoTheGreat
05-17-2016, 04:47 AM
It is true that armor does not make one invulnerable. But good armor does make one less vulnerable, which is quite useful already.

If the Great Captains had been wearing cuendillar night caps, then it is possible that the dream compulsion wouldn't have worked, which would have been well worth the price, I think.

Rand al'Fain
05-17-2016, 02:48 PM
It is true that armor does not make one invulnerable. But good armor does make one less vulnerable, which is quite useful already.

If the Great Captains had been wearing cuendillar night caps, then it is possible that the dream compulsion wouldn't have worked, which would have been well worth the price, I think.

Hard to say, really, if they would have been unaffected. If they had Mat's medallion, which repulses/negates channeling, they would have been fine. But just regular cuendillar? Nothing says that it repulses One Power weaves. Just that trying to use the OP on it makes it stronger.

maleshub
05-17-2016, 04:44 PM
It is true that armor does not make one invulnerable. But good armor does make one less vulnerable, which is quite useful already.

If the Great Captains had been wearing cuendillar night caps, then it is possible that the dream compulsion wouldn't have worked, which would have been well worth the price, I think.

As to the Great Captains and their questionable plan at the start of AMoL ... Rand had the right of it during Darth Rand time. One army, huge, unstoppable, moving by gateway to different battle fronts and eliminate fragmented enemy armies. Leader from the start is Mat (ta'veren pull). but hey, hindsight is 20/20!

But I like the cuendillar night caps :)

GonzoTheGreat
05-18-2016, 06:19 AM
Hey, if you're busy hindsightering, then I can play that too.

Use small Gateways for scouting purposes; this will enable you to figure out how the Trollocs get supplied. Then attack those supply stations, leaving the millions of Trollocs spread all over the land to either starve to death or to spread out so that they can be easily exterminated in small groups.
Use Gateways to send (and retrieve) cavalry who attack the flanks and rear of the Trolloc armies.
Use Gateways to attack the Trollocs and such who are trying to get through that pass leading to Shayol Ghul. That was a terrain made for Deathgates, which weren't used there as far as I remember.

For the Shadow:
Take out the AS with a night attack, instead of the heroic but fairly stupid large scale assault while the AS are already ready for almost anything that their genius commander now chose to use.
Use the Sharans to take out the Shayol Ghul forces when Mat expects them to come to Merrilor (where the Trollocs can provide days of entertainment on their own).
Attack the logistics of the enemy, rather than the fighters who can kill you.

ShadowbaneX
05-18-2016, 06:06 PM
There are so many horrible & awesome things you can do with small gateways that scouting and hit & run tactics is just the tip of the iceberg. Granted, many of those ideas also need decent knowledge of geography, geology, physics, chemistry, biology and a myriad of other sciences.

For instance a small gateway to the bottom of the ocean would have some interesting effects for whatever was staring into the other end. Or my preferred option of a gateway into hard vacuum...or an asteroid belt. "Where'd this mile-long, perfectly square bit of rock come from?" Or into low earth orbit directly above your enemy's position with a telephone pole worth of cuendillar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_bombardment) at the other end.

They started with the super massive gateways to the heart of Dragonmount, but you don't need liquid hot magma or kinetic strikes to be destructive. How about a small gateway under an enemy encampment and the other end just under the surface of an ocean? Whoever woke up would be in a swamp as the local water table would become super-saturated...or create a massive sink hole. Or how about just connecting a large city's sewage system to your enemy's water supply? Or just a supply of methane gas.

maleshub
05-18-2016, 07:18 PM
Lol, but it is fun to hindsight .... Trollocs holed up in Caemlyn and won't budge; keep a holding force around the city; and instead of having Elayne twiddle her thumbs in Braem wood, Travel her Army to Kandor or Shienar to crush one of the shadow's armies.

Or Keep Ituralde's army and channelers napping while three battles rage across the land. When 1 gateway could have been decisive on another battle front.

Geeze, even with 400 sharans the Shadow had less dreadlords; the Ashaman in Arad Doman and Illian seem to have evaporated somewhere even after (The Seanchan fight the Shadow). Didn't Logain take hundreds to those two countries. Wise Ones, Windfinders, WTower, Ashaman, and damane could have easily fielded 2000 channelers :) The Shadow had less than half that number.

GonzoTheGreat
05-19-2016, 02:59 AM
Of course, the Shadow could have evened out those numbers quite a bit if they had had the sense to actually use their 13 Myrddraal trick in an efficient way. Have some central place (somewhere in the Blight, perhaps) where you have stationed a few score of male and female channellers. Transport any channeller you catch there for treatment, and then use that new one as replacement of one of the ones that had been stationed there. Or, if you get a lot captives at a time, send a couple of dozen extra along to speed up the process.
Instead, they had male channellers waste lots of time converting other male channellers, and (presumably) females wasting time on other females.

maleshub
05-19-2016, 09:18 AM
Of course, the Shadow could have evened out those numbers quite a bit if they had had the sense to actually use their 13 Myrddraal trick in an efficient way. Have some central place (somewhere in the Blight, perhaps) where you have stationed a few score of male and female channellers. Transport any channeller you catch there for treatment, and then use that new one as replacement of one of the ones that had been stationed there. Or, if you get a lot captives at a time, send a couple of dozen extra along to speed up the process.
Instead, they had male channellers waste lots of time converting other male channellers, and (presumably) females wasting time on other females.

Or since ADVERSARY touched the True Power and his intentions are clear; and he cannot hide anything from ME, you would know that the main fight is at Shayul Gul; and all other fronts are secondary and a diversion; and can be won after the main battle. So, I would defend Shayul Gul with the majority of my forces while renting the world with bubbles of evil. ADVERSARY has no choice but come to the Blasted Land and face MY full might. And to make it interesting, I'd use the Sharans and Demandred with anyone who can travel through a waygate to wreck havoc on the Southern lands.

Oh and I have the seals brought to a secure location to avoid any pick-pocketing!