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Daekyras
08-12-2014, 10:28 AM
How many people have we seen with access to it?

And of those people, how many had access to a lot of the true power?

Ishy is the only answer to the second i can think off.

The reason im asking is that to the best of my knowledge he is the only person i can think of who had lots of access and over a prolonged period. Yet several people recognise the signs in his eyes of that prolonged use and even give it a name (saa??)

So in wondering where they saw it and why was it so common that the overuse of it had recognisable symptoms???

Davian93
08-12-2014, 11:09 AM
Ishy/Moridin
Graendal gets it occasionally.
Demandred (heavily suspected that he had access given his favor/special mission)
Rand


There are also indications that access to it was much more widespread during the War of Power so they (the Forsaken and Rand through LTT) all had memories of those consequences.

Daekyras
08-12-2014, 11:59 AM
Ishy/Moridin
Graendal gets it occasionally.
Demandred (heavily suspected that he had access given his favor/special mission)
Rand


There are also indications that access to it was much more widespread during the War of Power so they (the Forsaken and Rand through LTT) all had memories of those consequences.

I'm assuming you threw rand in for a lively discussion on "the link"??

Anyway, those are the people i thought and so im wondering why is it only ishy that gets proper use of it now? Why was it more available in the age of legends??

GonzoTheGreat
08-12-2014, 12:10 PM
Taim/M'Hael got a trickle.
Moghedien seemed to have full access for a while.

Seeker
08-12-2014, 02:31 PM
I'm assuming you threw rand in for a lively discussion on "the link"??

Anyway, those are the people i thought and so im wondering why is it only ishy that gets proper use of it now? Why was it more available in the age of legends??

"If God is so good, why does he allow evil in the first place. You can drive yourself mad asking those kinds of questions." - the angel Joshua in Supernatural.

This is one of the many, many, many, MANY ways in which WoT defies all logic and common sense.

Did the Dark One sense what Callandor was when Rand brought it near the bore? Even if he didn't, Moridin ANNOUNCED it.

The Dark One had to know that a True Power sa'angreal would leave him helpless and at the mercy of any channeler who used it. So why would the Dark One - who up until this point was incredibly stingy with the True Power and fearful of anyone channeling near the Bore - allow Moridin to seize the True Power through a device that he knew full well would leave him helpless?

For anyone

fionwe1987
08-18-2014, 12:18 PM
"If God is so good, why does he allow evil in the first place. You can drive yourself mad asking those kinds of questions." - the angel Joshua in Supernatural.

This is one of the many, many, many, MANY ways in which WoT defies all logic and common sense.

Did the Dark One sense what Callandor was when Rand brought it near the bore? Even if he didn't, Moridin ANNOUNCED it.

The Dark One had to know that a True Power sa'angreal would leave him helpless and at the mercy of any channeler who used it. So why would the Dark One - who up until this point was incredibly stingy with the True Power and fearful of anyone channeling near the Bore - allow Moridin to seize the True Power through a device that he knew full well would leave him helpless?

For anyone
This assumes the DO knew it was a TP sa'angreal from the outset. And that he somehow divined the obscure fact that two women can take control over its user.

As for the first part: what makes you think it is a matter of the Creator "allowing" evil? What makes you think he has a choice?

Seeker
08-18-2014, 07:23 PM
This assumes the DO knew it was a TP sa'angreal from the outset. And that he somehow divined the obscure fact that two women can take control over its user.

As for the first part: what makes you think it is a matter of the Creator "allowing" evil? What makes you think he has a choice?

The first part is a rhetorical question.

As for whether the Dark One knew that Callandor was a True Power sa'angreal, Moridin outright said it (twice in fact) while standing a few feet away from the bore. It's well established that the Dark One can hear his servants when they talk, so the Dark One knew. Whether he knew about the flaw or not is not germane to the topic.

It's a well-established character trait for the Dark One to fear even his most trusted servants channeling near the bore. The Dark One also has intricate knowledge of the the Pattern. It defies credulity to assume that he wouldn't know how a sa'angreal works and what would happen if the his essence was channeled through one.

So the Dark One is breaking character here. It's almost deliberate stupidity. Like he wants to get sealed back up or something.

padfoot89
08-27-2014, 04:45 PM
It's a well-established character trait for the Dark One to fear even his most trusted servants channeling near the bore. The Dark One also has intricate knowledge of the the Pattern. It defies credulity to assume that he wouldn't know how a sa'angreal works and what would happen if the his essence was channeled through one.


The DO didn't fear anyone channeling near him. It was a matter of obedience. Rand was allowed to channel near him so I see no reason why Moridin (who was practically the DO's right hand man) would not be allowed to channel.

Knowledge of Callandor's flaw was absolutely relevant. If the DO didn't know about the danger, there was no reason for him to withdraw the TP from Moridin. Moridin was not going to use it against the DO. Moridin with Callandor and the TP gave him a near unbeatable advantage over Rand and co. There's a reason why that part was the riskiest part of the plan.

The DO only realized the danger when Moridin got taken over suddenly and control passed to Rand. He panicked and tried to withdraw the TP but it was too late.

Bane Darkwulf
11-09-2014, 10:29 PM
The first part is a rhetorical question.

As for whether the Dark One knew that Callandor was a True Power sa'angreal, Moridin outright said it (twice in fact) while standing a few feet away from the bore. It's well established that the Dark One can hear his servants when they talk, so the Dark One knew. Whether he knew about the flaw or not is not germane to the topic.

It's a well-established character trait for the Dark One to fear even his most trusted servants channeling near the bore. The Dark One also has intricate knowledge of the the Pattern. It defies credulity to assume that he wouldn't know how a sa'angreal works and what would happen if the his essence was channeled through one.

So the Dark One is breaking character here. It's almost deliberate stupidity. Like he wants to get sealed back up or something.

Not really. The DO is trying to stay unsealed, but cannot directly effect things yet in a reliable manner, so he put his most trusted lieutenant in the spot where he could defend him the most successfully. The TP is from the DO, most of the Forsaken only channel it at need, preferring to use the less addictive OP. Why would he fear someone channeling the power that he himself controls, he can shut it off at any time because, to his knowledge, no one has ever crated even an angreal to channel the TP. Callandor was create by the Aes Sedai of the AOL after the TP was found bu it was crated by those who had no access to it, so he would not have had a part in creating it.Ishmael and his resurrected for Moridin had no prior knowledge of it or he would be trying to get ahold of it even earlier, and would have discovered the flaw.

GonzoTheGreat
11-10-2014, 04:10 AM
Callandor was create by the Aes Sedai of the AOL after the TP was found bu it was crated by those who had no access to it, so he would not have had a part in creating it.
Maybe, maybe not. That has always been a bit ambiguous:
"Is that what you think?" Be'lal said softly. "Truly, you know nothing." Suddenly there was a sword in his hands, a sword with a blade carved from black fire. "Take it! Take Callandor! Three thousand years, while I lay imprisoned, it has waited there. For you. One of the most powerful sa'angreal we ever made. Take it, and defend yourself, if you can!"Does that "we" mean that Be'lal helped make Callandor, or not? If yes, was Be'lal a Forsaken at the time, or not?

Rand al'Fain
12-20-2014, 12:06 AM
Maybe, maybe not. That has always been a bit ambiguous:
Does that "we" mean that Be'lal helped make Callandor, or not? If yes, was Be'lal a Forsaken at the time, or not?

I think it's a general "we" referring to Aes Sedai of the time period in general.

Res_Ipsa
12-20-2014, 01:53 AM
I think it's a general "we" referring to Aes Sedai of the time period in general.

Agreed, given that Be'lal was the envious one he would have wanted to increase his name by any means possible ("they" becomes "we").

GonzoTheGreat
12-20-2014, 04:01 AM
Agreed, given that Be'lal was the envious one he would have wanted to increase his name by any means possible ("they" becomes "we").
But that would have backfired horribly if Rand/LTT had remembered that Be'lal hadn't been involved in sa'angreal making. The stories told about Be'lal suggest that he boasted of things he had done, not of things he hadn't.

Nazbaque
12-20-2014, 06:58 AM
I always thought that to the Dark One the turning of the Wheel is like a game he tries to beat. You don't get the high score unless you turn the Dragon Reborn. This time too he failed and now he waits while the game resets.

As for how many were allowed to use the True Power I think Moghedien mentioned there had been thirty in the Age of Legends.

GonzoTheGreat
12-20-2014, 07:31 AM
As for how many were allowed to use the True Power I think Moghedien mentioned there had been thirty in the Age of Legends.
Moghedien mentions "twenty-nine others" when she first meets Moridin, but it is not quite certain that she's referring to True Power users. If correct, then there were 29, not 30, in the AOL. Plus however many the DO had granted this in secret, of course.
I'm not sure Moghedien counted the AS who first found the DO and created the Bore; if not, then they would up the count by a considerable margin.

Nazbaque
12-20-2014, 10:38 AM
Moghedien mentions "twenty-nine others" when she first meets Moridin, but it is not quite certain that she's referring to True Power users. If correct, then there were 29, not 30, in the AOL. Plus however many the DO had granted this in secret, of course.
I'm not sure Moghedien counted the AS who first found the DO and created the Bore; if not, then they would up the count by a considerable margin.

Wouldn't 29 others mean a total 30 when Moghedien is included?

GonzoTheGreat
12-20-2014, 12:11 PM
Maybe, maybe not. Moridin inconsiderately interrupted her before she could clarify that. The way she formulated it, it could go either way, but it doesn't seem likely that if she was going to put herself on the same level as the Third Ager she thought she was speaking to.
And, to further complicate things: it's not quite certain she was speaking about TP use at all. That was another detail which she wasn't given time to clarify.

Res_Ipsa
12-20-2014, 01:06 PM
But that would have backfired horribly if Rand/LTT had remembered that Be'lal hadn't been involved in sa'angreal making. The stories told about Be'lal suggest that he boasted of things he had done, not of things he hadn't.

Rand was not hearing/aware of LTT until TSR right? So in TDR, there is no guarantee that LTT would be "around" to jog Rand's memory.

Also, Be'lal could easily have a hand in making sure what stories were told and by who by killing, torturing, or otherwise controlling his image. Cults of personalities are impressive like that. Further, boasting is not envy. I know plenty who boast but are not envious. Envy suggests a need to make oneself larger at the expense of the truth by either ingratiating themselves with their "betters" or making others' deeds their own.

GonzoTheGreat
12-21-2014, 04:14 AM
But Be'lal did not know how much (if anything) Rand remembered. That uncertainty worried all the Forsaken, with the possible exception of Lanfear, who actually hoped that LTT would remember her.

Res_Ipsa
12-21-2014, 03:16 PM
But Be'lal did not know how much (if anything) Rand remembered. That uncertainty worried all the Forsaken, with the possible exception of Lanfear, who actually hoped that LTT would remember her.

Hmm, I do not think that would have stopped his pretensions. Especially where the forsaken take character faults to an extreme, thus Be'lal might have even believed he had helped with the CK by that time even if he had not.

GonzoTheGreat
12-22-2014, 03:28 AM
But this is not about the CK, which had been a very secret project (the Forsaken knew the project existed, but not where in the world the work was done). It was about Callandor, which was a bog standard top-of-the-range sa'angreal, with a couple of flaws that only became public after Be'lal was killed.

Res_Ipsa
12-22-2014, 09:09 AM
But this is not about the CK, which had been a very secret project (the Forsaken knew the project existed, but not where in the world the work was done). It was about Callandor, which was a bog standard top-of-the-range sa'angreal, with a couple of flaws that only became public after Be'lal was killed.

I typed "CK" but meant Callandor. My argument still stands, Be'lal would seem the perfect candidate for the royal "we." He either created it or had a hand in creating it or his work was the inspiration for it.

GonzoTheGreat
12-22-2014, 10:05 AM
Or he may have been no more than a convenient power source for this. We know that making angreal and sa'angreal is draining on the people involved in it. We don't know whether making a sa'angreal takes more power than making an angreal, but that does seem a reasonable guess. So I would think that making something like Callandor (or the CK) would have taken a large circle with numerous strong AS in it. Be'lal and LTT were strong AS, and, as planners and organisers they did not often need that strength on the battlefield. So they were logical 'volunteers' for joining such sa'angreal making circles.

Now, we don't know when Be'lal openly went over to the Shadow. Nor do we know when Callandor was made. So there is some obvious uncertainty here as to whether or not those times overlap.

Res_Ipsa
12-24-2014, 12:04 AM
Or he may have been no more than a convenient power source for this. We know that making angreal and sa'angreal is draining on the people involved in it. We don't know whether making a sa'angreal takes more power than making an angreal, but that does seem a reasonable guess. So I would think that making something like Callandor (or the CK) would have taken a large circle with numerous strong AS in it. Be'lal and LTT were strong AS, and, as planners and organisers they did not often need that strength on the battlefield. So they were logical 'volunteers' for joining such sa'angreal making circles.

Now, we don't know when Be'lal openly went over to the Shadow. Nor do we know when Callandor was made. So there is some obvious uncertainty here as to whether or not those times overlap.

That is getting afield of my point. Be'lal was probably not involved in any of it, but he seems the type that would claim involvement in any grand thing where no direct source exists to contradict him. Even if he was, he would seek to inflate his role where possible.

GonzoTheGreat
12-24-2014, 04:21 AM
I don't disagree with the last bit. However, I also think that if Callandor was made while Be'lal still was on the side of the Light, then it is quite believable that both he and LTT had been part of making it.

So the real question here is "when was Callandor made?"
When it comes to that, we do not have all that much evidence. We know that it was less than 80 years after the start of the Breaking. But that still leaves a period of more than a century where we have no clue when to place this event. Be'lal's statement gives some not very dependable extra information, and that's basically all we have.

Great Lord of the Dark
01-12-2015, 11:57 PM
Regarding why the Dark One let Rand near the Bore with Callandor:

The Last Battle MUST take place, and Rand used this to coerce the Dark One not to do the stalactite trick when he approached. However well prepared Rand came, the Dark One was going to let him into the Pit of Doom.

Even if the Dark One knows how Callandor can be used against him, it seems likely he underestimates Rand's ability to figure this out, especially given that the flaw requires Rand and two women to work together. Or, he also has a way of using it against Rand, which he considers more likely to pan out than Rand using it against him.

The Last Battle is the battle for Rand's soul, and the Dark One is likely to interpret bringing Callandor as a sign Rand is willing to use force, which ultimately gives the Dark One what he wants.

Res_Ipsa
01-13-2015, 08:08 PM
Regarding why the Dark One let Rand near the Bore with Callandor:

The Last Battle MUST take place, and Rand used this to coerce the Dark One not to do the stalactite trick when he approached. However well prepared Rand came, the Dark One was going to let him into the Pit of Doom.

Even if the Dark One knows how Callandor can be used against him, it seems likely he underestimates Rand's ability to figure this out, especially given that the flaw requires Rand and two women to work together. Or, he also has a way of using it against Rand, which he considers more likely to pan out than Rand using it against him.

The Last Battle is the battle for Rand's soul, and the Dark One is likely to interpret bringing Callandor as a sign Rand is willing to use force, which ultimately gives the Dark One what he wants.

I suppose the answer lies in what mythology RJ put the most into in the view of good and evil. Is the DO comparable to Satan where his powers are defined by what God gives him, or the DO more akin to the Asian views of good and evil, one to balance out the other. I think the latter is correct because of the symbol of the AS. Therefore, its quite possible the DO knew because he had to know.