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GonzoTheGreat
09-22-2014, 08:11 AM
I'm somewhat puzzled by the case of Daničle Watts (http://gawker.com/django-unchained-actress-mistaken-for-prostitute-accos-1634555094). She was apparently detained for not providing ID, which she did not have to do unless she was detained. So if she had shown it, then she wouldn't have been detained and thus would not have been under any legal obligation at all to show ID. But because she did not show it she was detained and thus had to ID herself.
However, if she was under no obligation to provide ID (when she wasn't detained, yet), then her refusal to ID herself could not have been grounds for detaining her, could it?

Now, my question is: is this the new "walking while black"?

Gilshalos Sedai
09-22-2014, 08:49 AM
God I hope not.

She's not the only incidence of cops doing this to couples in interracial marriages/relationships, either.

I'm starting to feel a little leery of a certain thin blue line.

But I wouldn't go so far as to start calling it a return to slavery. Closer to Jim Crow.

And she had absolutely NO LEGAL REQUIREMENT to show ID. I believe, according to the story, they were also required to prove they were married. And who they fuck carries their marriage license around?

Usually, shit like this is thrown out for entrapment. As long as the DA isn't running for re-election.

GonzoTheGreat
09-22-2014, 09:50 AM
But I wouldn't go so far as to start calling it a return to slavery. Closer to Jim Crow.
Hurray! Improvement galore!

She still doesn't seem to be a happy bunny, in that photograph where she has handcuffs on. Hard to please everyone, I know, but still: she of all people should have known how much worse it could have been.

The Unreasoner
09-22-2014, 11:28 AM
I don't know all of the facts here, but I do know some civil rights groups that originally supported her have withdrawn their support.

Davian93
09-22-2014, 12:33 PM
God I hope not.

She's not the only incidence of cops doing this to couples in interracial marriages/relationships, either.

I'm starting to feel a little leery of a certain thin blue line.

But I wouldn't go so far as to start calling it a return to slavery. Closer to Jim Crow.

And she had absolutely NO LEGAL REQUIREMENT to show ID. I believe, according to the story, they were also required to prove they were married. And who they fuck carries their marriage license around?

Usually, shit like this is thrown out for entrapment. As long as the DA isn't running for re-election.

Starting? Starting???

Cops are thugs and gangmembers...just sanctioned thugs. For every bad cop, there are 10 other cops that are just as bad because they look the other way and close ranks to protect their own.

Cops suck.

Gilshalos Sedai
09-22-2014, 02:46 PM
I don't know all of the facts here, but I do know some civil rights groups that originally supported her have withdrawn their support.

You are correct. They have.

Apparently, they had good reason to question their activities in their car. (http://www.laweekly.com/informer/2014/09/19/daniele-watts-denounced-by-black-leaders)

Apparently, we can thank TMZ for this one, too.

And no, I'm not going to bash all cops, Dav. Most of them are good guys just trying to do their jobs made harder by the assholes in their ranks.

Davian93
09-22-2014, 04:24 PM
The ones that keep their mouths shut while the assholes in their ranks do their things are just as bad as the assholes they protect.

Ozymandias
09-22-2014, 06:37 PM
Starting? Starting???

Cops are thugs and gangmembers...just sanctioned thugs. For every bad cop, there are 10 other cops that are just as bad because they look the other way and close ranks to protect their own.

Cops suck.

Oh please. Cops are exactly the same as normal folks except they have the force of law on their side, and thus are put under more scrutiny than most.

There are good people and bad people working for the various police departments across the country; the problem is that the bigoted and stupid ones are in a position to do actual damage, whereas all their bigoted and stupid neighbors don't have the power of the state on their side.

But I hate the idea that cops are inherently worse people. Teachers unions close ranks to protect abusive teachers. Player unions in sports close ranks to protect players who beat their wives or commit crimes. The only thing that makes the police different is that with more power and more scrutiny into what they're doing, it makes it easier to do something very very wrong.

Davian93
09-22-2014, 07:29 PM
Of course they aren't better or worse than other people...the problem is that they SHOULD be better than others and held to a higher standard.

GonzoTheGreat
09-23-2014, 03:06 AM
Apparently, they had good reason to question their activities in their car. (http://www.laweekly.com/informer/2014/09/19/daniele-watts-denounced-by-black-leaders)
Frankly, I think they withdrew their support for the wrong reason, and probably without sufficient reason.
It seems likely that Watts did do something that "warranted investigation" according to the local laws. So the fact that the police officer investigated is not unreasonable.
However, the demand for ID is not based on the needs to conduct that investigation, as by that time the officer was already convinced that he wouldn't bother continuing the case anymore. All that he was doing was satisfy his own power trip in demanding to see ID; and against that demand those civil rights groups could (and probably should) stand firm, rather than backing the police officer who was acting out of entitlement.

Apart from that, this case raises the interesting question: when is someone detained?
Apparently, the fact that the officer never informed her that she had to remain was not enough to warrant "not being detained". The fact that she could walk away without generating any comment from the officer was not enough to warrant "not being detained".
Thus, if you ever encounter a police officer, stick to his side henceforth until he explicitly says that you are free from detention. Merely walking away would mean flight. Letting him walk away while you remain where you are isn't good enough either. So keep on his (or her) tail until given explicit leave to leave. And, extra warning: don't tell the officer why you are doing this, since that could be considered insulting; just answer all questions with "I use my right to remain silent".

Cops are exactly the same as normal folks except they have the force of law on their side, and thus are put under more scrutiny than most.
As Davian already said, they should be better, or they should not have that extra force of law on their side.

But the issue which you ignore (perhaps overlook) is not that of bad cops, it is that the mediocre cops back up those bad cops by their silence. The loyalty of the police should be first and foremost to the rule of law, not to the police corps. If it is to be assumed that they will lie or remain silent to back up their bad brothers, just as gang members do, then courts of law should put no more weight on the word of a police officer than it should put on that of an ordinary suspect. Yet in general the legal assumption is that police officers are more trustworthy, and if they don't live up to that, then the law is a lie.

Edited to add the "when are you detained" question bit.

GonzoTheGreat
09-23-2014, 06:47 AM
But I hate the idea that cops are inherently worse people. Teachers unions close ranks to protect abusive teachers. Player unions in sports close ranks to protect players who beat their wives or commit crimes. The only thing that makes the police different is that with more power and more scrutiny into what they're doing, it makes it easier to do something very very wrong.
Well, that is not quite the only difference. There's also the fact that apparently cops are 2 to 4 times as likely to be guilty of domestic violence as average people (http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/09/police-officers-who-hit-their-wives-or-girlfriends/380329/), while NFL players are only half as likely to do that kind of thing.

So while you may hate the idea that cops are worse than ordinary people, and such hate would be reasonable, that does not mean that the idea is wrong. Reality can be bad, and when it comes to police officers, it apparently is.

Gilshalos Sedai
09-23-2014, 10:52 AM
Thank you so much for telling me what I can and cannot do, Gonzo, in my own country. :rolleyes: I am aware of what an officer is obligated to demand in the form of identification. As a matter of fact, he or she is obligated to provide ID. Not me.

The fault is not necessarily the individual police officers'. It is, however, the steady militarization of our civilian law enforcement since 9/11 in the name of "homeland security."

Nazbaque
09-23-2014, 11:09 AM
Oh it goes back a lot further than that. Way back you and certain other countries were rather desperate to get away from oppression and embraced freedom. So you threw away everything that somehow went against freedom, such as obligation, duty, honor and so on. Thus your laws have actually no leg to stand on, because it cannot be founded on the concept of freedom. If anyone tells you otherwise they are either mistaken or deliberately lying.

GonzoTheGreat
09-23-2014, 11:09 AM
Actually, in your own country it seems to depend on what state you're in. Some states have a "must show ID" law, others don't. And from what I've read about it, SCOTUS has basically upheld those laws.

And I think the problem started way before 9/11, though that definitely did not help. Another big contributing factor is Prohibition (the PC term is "war on drugs" nowadays, I think). And I suspect that another big factor is that law enforcement is way too political, so that anyone trying to curb any of the excesses can be put down as being "soft on crime". This last is also a problem over here, though from what I've read of it, you lot have it even worse. At least we don't elect our police chiefs and prosecutors, so they have somewhat less incentive to stamp down on minorities.