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Kimon
10-02-2014, 08:59 PM
I know it's Texas so incompetence has to be expected, but this level of negligence should be a serious concern.

It is unclear how many people had direct contact with Duncan. Authorities say the number of people who require monitoring will be much lower once that has been determined.

Some students have not returned to the schools attended by five students who are believed to have had contact with Duncan, the school district reported. Those five students are staying at home, and attendance is down at the campuses, even as nurses have begun regularly visiting classrooms and counselors have been made available.

A law enforcement officer was stationed at the apartment complex Duncan was visiting to make sure the quarantined individuals do not go out. The quarantine order, which was delivered by local health officials Wednesday night, says that the family cannot have visitors without approval, has to provide blood samples and must agree to any testing.

While authorities were reluctant to go into detail about why these four people without any symptoms were quarantined, they said it had to do with making sure they remained at home and accessible for monitoring.

“They were noncompliant with the request to stay home,” Jenkins said. “I don’t want to go too far beyond that.”

There are also issues of hygiene at the apartment, including properly disposing of Duncan’s belongings and the sheets on which he slept. The home had not been cleaned by Thursday afternoon because there has “been a little bit of hesitancy” in finding someone willing to do it, said David Lakey, commissioner of the Texas Department of State Health Services.

The sheets and Duncan’s belongings have been placed in a sealed plastic bag, and they will be disposed of by a contractor who has previously worked with hospitals on medical cleanups and agreed to clean the home, Jenkins said.

The fact that he was sent home after his first visit to the hospital, even after telling them that he had just returned from Africa is alarming enough, but now Texas seems to be doing everything possible to exacerbate that initial mistake.

Edit: Forgot to link the whole article...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/texas-ebola-patient-thomas-eric-duncan-may-have-had-contact-with-up-to-100-people/2014/10/02/1a36f7aa-4a37-11e4-891d-713f052086a0_story.html

Isabel
10-02-2014, 11:21 PM
Thats not so smart. You would think they would to everything to make sure this doesnt spread:eek:

Lupusdeusest
10-03-2014, 03:45 AM
To be fair, it can be stopped with hot water and soap. Whilst it is a nasty way to go, influenza (amongst a dozen other things) is far more contagious and deadly. Ebola is shiny though...

Not a scientific link, but here: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/05/ebola-worrying-disease

GonzoTheGreat
10-03-2014, 04:01 AM
To be fair, it can be stopped with hot water and soap.
But is it reasonable to expect people in Texas to have those (very liberal) amenities available, and also to know what to do with them?

Frenzy
10-03-2014, 08:32 PM
aaaaand i just saw my first wingnut graphic on Facebook blaming the Dallas Ebola case on Obama and his failure to secure our borders. From a gamer acquaintance. From Texas.

i need a drink to catch all these tears i'm laughing

Davian93
10-04-2014, 08:42 PM
This is pretty much how every zombie movie or show starts. Its been fun.

Khoram
10-04-2014, 09:46 PM
Luckily it's too cold up here in Canadia for anything like that to survive.

Mort
10-05-2014, 03:11 AM
I heard it was a software glitch. Some nurse recorded that he had recently been to west africa but the medical journal didn't show it when the doctor was handling the case.

GonzoTheGreat
10-05-2014, 03:58 AM
It does show what the priorities are in Texas, doesn't it?
They are trying very hard to outlaw abortion, officially for "health and safety" reasons, but they can't be bothered to take ebola seriously.

Davian93
10-06-2014, 12:40 PM
It does show what the priorities are in Texas, doesn't it?
They are trying very hard to outlaw abortion, officially for "health and safety" reasons, but they can't be bothered to take ebola seriously.

Well, it's like the old saying goes, "It's all fun and games until someone is bleeding out of their eyeballs".

Brita
10-06-2014, 02:45 PM
This (http://www.businessinsider.com/r-us-nurses-say-they-are-unprepared-to-handle-ebola-patients-2014-10) is how I feel.

CHICAGO (Reuters) - Nurses, the frontline care providers in U.S. hospitals, say they are untrained and unprepared to handle patients arriving in their hospital emergency departments infected with Ebola.

Many say they have gone to hospital managers, seeking training on how to best care for patients and protect themselves and their families from contracting the deadly disease, which has so far killed at least 3,338 people in the deadliest outbreak on record.

The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has repeatedly said that U.S. hospitals are prepared to handle such patients. Many infectious disease experts agree with that assessment.

Dr. Edward Goodman, an infectious disease doctor at Texas Health Presbyterian Hospital in Dallas that is now caring for the first Ebola patient to be diagnosed in this country, believed his hospital was ready.

The hospital had completed Ebola training just before Thomas Eric Duncan arrived in their emergency department on Sept. 26. But despite being told that Duncan had recently traveled from Liberia, hospital staff failed to recognize the Ebola risk and sent him home, where he spent another two days becoming sicker and more infectious.

"The Texas case is a perfect example," said Micker Samios, a triage nurse in the emergency department at Medstar Washington Hospital Center, the largest hospital in the nation's capital.

"In addition to not being prepared, there was a flaw in diagnostics as well as communication," Samios said.

Nurses argue that inadequate preparation could increase the chances of spreading Ebola if hospital staff fail to recognize a patient coming through their doors, or if personnel are not informed about how to properly protect themselves.

At Medstar, the issue of Ebola training came up at the bargaining table during contract negotiations.

"A lot of staff feel they aren't adequately trained," said Samios, whose job is to greet patients in the emergency department and do an initial assessment of their condition.

So Young Pak, a spokeswoman for the hospital, said it has been rolling out training since July "in the Emergency Department and elsewhere, and communicating regularly with physicians, nurses and others throughout the hospital."

Samios said she and other members of the emergency department staff were trained just last week on procedures to care for and recognize an Ebola patient, but not everyone was present for the training, and none of the other nursing or support staff were trained.

"When an Ebola patient is admitted or goes to the intensive care unit, those nurses, those tech service associates are not trained," she said. "The X-ray tech who comes into the room to do the portable chest X-ray is not trained. The transporter who pushes the stretcher is not trained."

If an Ebola patient becomes sick while being transported, "How do you clean the elevator?"

Nurses at hospitals across the country are asking similar questions.

A survey by National Nurses United of some 400 nurses in more than 200 hospitals in 25 states found that more than half (60 percent) said their hospital is not prepared to handle patients with Ebola, and more than 80 percent said their hospital has not communicated to them any policy regarding potential admission of patients infected by Ebola.

Another 30 percent said their hospital has insufficient supplies of eye protection and fluid-resistant gowns.

"If there are protocols in place, the nurses are not hearing them and the nurses are the ones who are exposed," said RoseAnn DeMoro, executive director of National Nurses United, which serves as both a union and a professional association for U.S. nurses.

Unlike influenza or the common cold, which can be spread by coughing and sneezing, Ebola is only spread by contact with bodily fluids from someone who is actively sick. That means the risk to the average person is low, but for healthcare workers, the risk is much higher.

As of Aug. 25, more than 240 healthcare workers have developed the disease in Guinea, Liberia, Nigeria, and Sierra Leone, and more than 120 have died, according to the World Health Organization.

Many of these infections occurred when healthcare workers were removing the personal protective gear - masks, gowns, gloves or full hazmat suits used to care for the patients, said biosafety experts.

Sean Kaufman, ‎president of Behavioral-Based Improvement Solutions, an Atlanta-based biosafety firm, helped coach nurses at Emory University through the process of putting on and taking off personal protective equipment (PPE) while they were caring for two U.S. aid workers flown to Atlanta after becoming infected with Ebola in West Africa.

Kaufman became known as "Papa Smurf" to the Emory nurses because of the blue hazmat suits he and others wore that resembled the cartoon character.

"Our healthcare workforce goes through so many pairs of gloves that they really don't focus on how they remove gloves. The putting on and the taking off doesn't occur with enough attention to protect themselves," he said.

Nurses say hospitals have not thought through the logistics of caring for Ebola patients.

"People say they are ready, but then when you ask them what do you actually have in place, nobody is really answering that," said Karen Higgins, a registered nurse at Boston Medical Center.

Higgins, an intensive care unit (ICU) nurse, said hospital officials have been teaching nurses on one of the regular floors how to care for an Ebola patient.

"I said, well, that's great, but if the patient requires an ICU, what is your plan," she said. "They looked at me blankly."

I have no idea how to properly use one of those freaky looking masks. And all the layers of protective clothing...I'd be baffled. How do I remove it without infecting myself? To be frank: C-Diff spreads through body fluids (only through feces), and when there is an outbreak in the hospital it is often hard to contain. And C-Diff patients aren't bleeding out their eyeballs (as Dav so nicely illustrated). The talking heads can and should re-assure the public, but at the same time they had better be training their frontline staff ASAP. Zero training has happened in our hospital around this. None. Nada.

I doubt it will come to our area to be honest, but to say we are ready and then to not train us is ludicrous. We are NOT routinely equipped to deal with this type of outbreak.

Kimon
10-06-2014, 08:56 PM
I was looking for a nice article to point out that at least one man in Texas was handling the situation in a way worthy of commendation and praise, and then I found this...

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-Texas/2014/10/04/Liberal-Judge-Drives-Ebola-Exposed-Family-Attends-Presser-Wearing-Same-Shirt

Can you imagine what types of articles this guy would have written about Jesus?

Southpaw2012
10-06-2014, 11:11 PM
Texas is one of few states who actually does things right. We're talking about Texas, not backwards California. However, this situation is getting out of control. I don't blame the Obama administration for people going to ebola stricken areas of Africa and then coming back, but I do think we need to close off travel to that part of the country until it's under control.

GonzoTheGreat
10-07-2014, 03:51 AM
... but I do think we need to close off travel to that part of the country until it's under control.
Now that is a sensible suggestion. Put Texas under total quarantine until Ebola is entirely eradicated. I'm sure that'll improve the world situation significantly.

Davian93
10-07-2014, 06:51 AM
Texas is one of few states who actually does things right. We're talking about Texas, not backwards California. However, this situation is getting out of control. I don't blame the Obama administration for people going to ebola stricken areas of Africa and then coming back, but I do think we need to close off travel to that part of the country until it's under control.

How did Texas do anything right in this scenario again?

If only it were that easy. For one...what's to stop me from flying to Mexico or Canada and driving down or flying from Monrovia to Madrid and then Madrid to Atlanta or New York? We can't track that...countries simply do not cooperate on that level for tracking travel. Just like the US doesn't track me driving north into Canada but only gets me coming back to the United States. Its far, far harder to track and then stop as you suggest.

Still...basic health screenings would help...as would some basic competence on the part of doctors/nurses in ERs (though Brita points out that there is far more issues there than we'd all like to think about too).

Davian93
10-07-2014, 09:34 AM
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ebola-virus-outbreak/obama-ready-ramp-ebola-airport-screening-n219811

Airport screening measures ramped up considerably...happy now?

SauceyBlueConfetti
10-08-2014, 11:44 AM
Dude is dead.

Davian93
10-08-2014, 02:53 PM
Dude is dead.

Well, there was pretty much a 3 in 4 shot of that happening the moment he contracted the disease.

Quite sad though.

Kimon
10-08-2014, 04:06 PM
Well, there was pretty much a 3 in 4 shot of that happening the moment he contracted the disease.

Quite sad though.

Likely an automatic malpractice case though. It was clearly negligent of the hospital to send him home the first time, and while admitting him at that time would certainly not have guaranteed survival, it nonetheless would have provided him a much better chance of survival.

Davian93
10-08-2014, 04:07 PM
Likely an automatic malpractice case though. It was clearly negligent of the hospital to send him home the first time, and while admitting him at that time would certainly not have guaranteed survival, it nonetheless would have provided him a much better chance of survival.

Oh definitely...his family should also be pissed that he was sent home to live with them despite having a very deadly disease. Reckless endangerment at its finest...especially if any of them end up getting sick too.

Frenzy
10-09-2014, 12:45 AM
The guy lied about his his previous exposure, either deliberately or unknowingly. The fact he died saves us the legal question of prosecuting him for public endangerment.

California may be insane, but i love it warts and all. At least i can breathe the air without gagging. I went to Southern Maryland last November, and it smelled like a leaking gas pump. Plus it's the second week of October and it's a breezy 80 degrees out during the day. :D

Brita
10-14-2014, 02:44 PM
Much better idea:

U.S. health officials say they are setting up an Ebola response team that would travel to anywhere in the country where Ebola is diagnosed “within hours."

Centers for Disease Control and Prevention director Tom Frieden said at a news conference in Atlanta on Tuesday that he's been hearing "loud and clear" from health-care workers in the U.S. that they are worried and don't feel prepared to treat Ebola.

We also have now had training for our ER and ICU staff, the problem is that (likely) a lot of time will pass before they may need to use that training. Unless you specialize in this, it is very hard to be as competent as you would like.

Nazbaque
10-14-2014, 05:25 PM
My mind keeps turning the thread title into "Texas Ebola Massacre" and some very nasty mental images turn up.

Uno
10-14-2014, 05:46 PM
Ebola depresses me. Let's talk about liquor instead. I picked up a bottle of Janneau Royal XO armagnac the other day. I highly recommend it for those chilly autumn evenings.

Davian93
10-14-2014, 07:34 PM
Much better idea:



We also have now had training for our ER and ICU staff, the problem is that (likely) a lot of time will pass before they may need to use that training. Unless you specialize in this, it is very hard to be as competent as you would like.

Yup. Tough to use muscles that you don't stretch out very often.

The current trends and reports saying 10K new cases a week by the end of the year are looking a bit grim. Especially given the 70% mortality rate they're reporting. It seems to be transmitting a bit easier than they've ever said before too...which is worrisome. Perhaps this strain is a bit more hardy than previous strains, eh?

Brita
10-14-2014, 09:30 PM
The nurse getting infected in Texas is worrisome- I am sure she was very careful and used all precautions, meaning it spread through extremely minor contact... Scary indeed

Edit: and now her boyfriend has been admitted with symptoms, even though she presented to the hospital as soon as her temperature rose (and it isn't supposed to be contagious until symptoms appear). It seems to spread a little easier than originally thought. Not that it's time to panic, but it is time to take this more seriously. That's why the special response team is a step in the right direction. I don't think this is quite the Ebola we have been used to.

GonzoTheGreat
10-15-2014, 03:08 AM
I don't think this is quite the Ebola we have been used to.
Jedi hand wave: "this is not the Ebola you are looking for."

Brita
10-21-2014, 10:42 AM
Well, if it is any consolation around the mistakes made in Dallas, the health authorities have taken note.

In Canada I would now confidently say we are prepared. Of course, I didn't feel this way just a couple of weeks ago. Hopefully we will never have to use the plans that have been put in place, but it is a huge relief to know the plans are there.

Thanks Dallas. Hopefully the nurses will recover fully, and not pay for a hard lesson learned with their lives.

Davian93
10-21-2014, 01:53 PM
Well, if it is any consolation around the mistakes made in Dallas, the health authorities have taken note.

In Canada I would now confidently say we are prepared. Of course, I didn't feel this way just a couple of weeks ago. Hopefully we will never have to use the plans that have been put in place, but it is a huge relief to know the plans are there.

Thanks Dallas. Hopefully the nurses will recover fully, and not pay for a hard lesson learned with their lives.

In America, we don't learn from mistakes...we merely find people to blame.

Sad but true.

tworiverswoman
10-23-2014, 02:15 PM
Well, the judge in Kimon's article that walked through Duncan's home unprotected is still alive and doing press releases as of yesterday, 20+ days after his exposure. So I guess he feels vindicated. His attitude stills irks me, though.

SauceyBlueConfetti
10-24-2014, 11:30 AM
My sister is a Critical Care nurse. She is pretty upset with all the "stay calm" things, especially after hearing our Governor, then the President, comment that "all hospitals in the US have a plan in place".

Uh no. She said they have seen multiple emails about using the protective, hazmat-style equiptment but received ZERO training and nothing about any "plan" if someone symptomatic arrives at the hospital. None. Nada. The staff is basically revolting and asking for additional training and information.

When the Texas hospital originally blamed the nurses for not following protocol she accurately predicted that would be retracted pretty quickly.

GonzoTheGreat
10-24-2014, 11:46 AM
Maybe the protocols are only shared on a "need to know" basis?

Davian93
10-24-2014, 12:02 PM
My sister is a Critical Care nurse. She is pretty upset with all the "stay calm" things, especially after hearing our Governor, then the President, comment that "all hospitals in the US have a plan in place".

Uh no. She said they have seen multiple emails about using the protective, hazmat-style equiptment but received ZERO training and nothing about any "plan" if someone symptomatic arrives at the hospital. None. Nada. The staff is basically revolting and asking for additional training and information.

When the Texas hospital originally blamed the nurses for not following protocol she accurately predicted that would be retracted pretty quickly.

Meh...they can just wing it. What could possibly go wrong? I mean, its not like a terminal ebola patient is projectile vomiting and bleeding everywhere or something...while also shiating themselves and its also not like any of those liquids are swimming with a deadly virus or something. Just get some handwipes and some Simple Green and it'll be fine.

Kimon
10-24-2014, 12:21 PM
Meh...they can just wing it. What could possibly go wrong? I mean, its not like a terminal ebola patient is projectile vomiting and bleeding everywhere or something...while also shiating themselves and its also not like any of those liquids are swimming with a deadly virus or something. Just get some handwipes and some Simple Green and it'll be fine.

I'd imagine that this largely comes down to callous calculus. The chances of someone with ebola coming in to an individual hospital are exceedingly rare, but training all your staff on handling such an exingency, and buying enough equipment to actually keep those staff safe would be really expensive. After all, the hospital is there to make money, and that would hurt the profit margin. So f it. Let's just plan on nothing happening, and if it does, have some "plan" in place amongst the higher ups to limit our own exposure if someone does come in, and hand the patient (and our exposed staff...) over to someone who knows what they're doing, and is more willing and able to assume the risk as quickly as possible.

Brita
10-24-2014, 01:10 PM
I'd imagine that this largely comes down to callous calculus. The chances of someone with ebola coming in to an individual hospital are exceedingly rare, but training all your staff on handling such an exingency, and buying enough equipment to actually keep those staff safe would be really expensive. After all, the hospital is there to make money, and that would hurt the profit margin. So f it. Let's just plan on nothing happening, and if it does, have some "plan" in place amongst the higher ups to limit our own exposure if someone does come in, and hand the patient (and our exposed staff...) over to someone who knows what they're doing, and is more willing and able to assume the risk as quickly as possible.

There is definitely some truth to this- except in Canada the hospitals aren't there to make money, but are under extremely limited budgets. Ends up with the same result though.

Davian93
10-24-2014, 01:17 PM
I'd imagine that this largely comes down to callous calculus. The chances of someone with ebola coming in to an individual hospital are exceedingly rare, but training all your staff on handling such an exingency, and buying enough equipment to actually keep those staff safe would be really expensive. After all, the hospital is there to make money, and that would hurt the profit margin. So f it. Let's just plan on nothing happening, and if it does, have some "plan" in place amongst the higher ups to limit our own exposure if someone does come in, and hand the patient (and our exposed staff...) over to someone who knows what they're doing, and is more willing and able to assume the risk as quickly as possible.

http://img.pandawhale.com/90937-a-major-one-gif-Edward-Norton-hHKS.gif

"A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one."

Kimon
10-27-2014, 07:19 PM
How was (is?) Chris Christie ever viewed as a legitimate presidential candidate? How could anyone think that this is a rational response? Even if you support mandatory quarantining of health workers returning from Africa, the way in which this was done was ridiculously incompetent, heavy-handed, and unsanitary. He put this woman in a tent without even a shower, and apparently before backing down, intended to keep her imprisoned therein for 21 days. One of my uncles returned from a trip from the Amazon a few years ago with a fever, and was quarantined for a few weeks because no one knew what he had caught. But at least he was put in a luxury suite in the hospital. wtf was Christie thinking?

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/28/nyregion/nurse-in-newark-to-be-allowed-to-finish-ebola-quarantine-at-home-christie-says.html

GonzoTheGreat
10-28-2014, 04:11 AM
wtf was Christie thinking?
Why make the assumption that thinking was involved?

Remember the previous Republican president, who called himself "the decider". Do you think any thinking was involved with that one?

Davian93
10-28-2014, 07:22 AM
How was (is?) Chris Christie ever viewed as a legitimate presidential candidate? How could anyone think that this is a rational response? Even if you support mandatory quarantining of health workers returning from Africa, the way in which this was done was ridiculously incompetent, heavy-handed, and unsanitary. He put this woman in a tent without even a shower, and apparently before backing down, intended to keep her imprisoned therein for 21 days. One of my uncles returned from a trip from the Amazon a few years ago with a fever, and was quarantined for a few weeks because no one knew what he had caught. But at least he was put in a luxury suite in the hospital. wtf was Christie thinking?

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/28/nyregion/nurse-in-newark-to-be-allowed-to-finish-ebola-quarantine-at-home-christie-says.html

This goes back to my earlier post of "doing something". See, he's a strong man of action. He's doing something and it must be good. I know lifelong Democrats that are like "Yeah, look at Christie at least give a damn and do stuff about this crisis!"

Doing something is better than doing nothing in the public's eye...thus, Christie, a political beast, is "doing something".

Kimon
10-28-2014, 10:14 PM
This goes back to my earlier post of "doing something". See, he's a strong man of action. He's doing something and it must be good. I know lifelong Democrats that are like "Yeah, look at Christie at least give a damn and do stuff about this crisis!"

Doing something is better than doing nothing in the public's eye...thus, Christie, a political beast, is "doing something".

There is a fine line between being a tough guy "doing something" and being a schmuck. Had he acted like the Connecticut governor and placed her under mandatory in-home quarantine he might have achieved the former. Instead he thought that a tent prison and a suitcase port-a-potty was somehow good pr. Calling Christie a schmuck seems almost too polite.

Nazbaque
10-28-2014, 10:37 PM
This goes back to my earlier post of "doing something". See, he's a strong man of action. He's doing something and it must be good. I know lifelong Democrats that are like "Yeah, look at Christie at least give a damn and do stuff about this crisis!"

Doing something is better than doing nothing in the public's eye...thus, Christie, a political beast, is "doing something".

Aaaand this is why democracy doesn't work in the long run. 90 % of people are too shallow, bloody minded or plain stupid to be allowed to vote. And that is the European average. With USA it's at least 99.99 %

Kimon
10-29-2014, 03:56 PM
After being freed from captivity in New Jersey, Kaci Hickox is now facing home-incarceration back in Maine. The message from the individual states to health care workers seeking to help Africa is quite clear - don't.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/10/29/after-fight-with-chris-christie-nurse-kaci-hickox-defies-ebola-quarantine-in-maine/

GonzoTheGreat
10-30-2014, 04:35 AM
I guessed that state would have a Republican governor too. Then I thought that I was letting my prejudice get the better of me. So I checked.

Davian93
10-30-2014, 10:58 AM
After being freed from captivity in New Jersey, Kaci Hickox is now facing home-incarceration back in Maine. The message from the individual states to health care workers seeking to help Africa is quite clear - don't.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/10/29/after-fight-with-chris-christie-nurse-kaci-hickox-defies-ebola-quarantine-in-maine/

God forbid she stay at home a couple weeks. She's just a whiny attention-whore, nothing more.

Ivhon
10-30-2014, 11:48 AM
God forbid she stay at home a couple weeks. She's just a whiny attention-whore, nothing more.

Pretty much this. Self-monitoring is not a recipe for positive outcome in any circumstance. Particularly when the desire to go into denial would be as strong as it might be with Ebola symptoms.

Brita
10-30-2014, 01:57 PM
Pretty much this. Self-monitoring is not a recipe for positive outcome in any circumstance. Particularly when the desire to go into denial would be as strong as it might be with Ebola symptoms.

I disagree. Tell me, why isn't her boyfriend in quarantine? If she is at risk of infecting others (thus the quarantine presumably) then he certainly poses a threat as well. (hint- it's because she's not actually contagious right now). And if they are both in quarantine, then how do they support themselves? Perhaps friends can don gloves and pass food through a doggy door, or else the friends must then be quarantined. Where does it end? And to house arrest people for 3 weeks because we can't trust their professionalism and honesty in this serious situation is absurd. These are healthcare professionals volunteering their time and risking their health to help- I think we owe them an iota of respect.

But most importantly science has absolutely no support for quarantine without symptoms. Read this from the folks at the NEJM:

The sensitive blood polymerase-chain-reaction (PCR) test for Ebola is often negative on the day when fever or other symptoms begin and only becomes reliably positive 2 to 3 days after symptom onset. This point is supported by the fact that of the nurses caring for Thomas Eric Duncan, the man who died from Ebola virus disease in Texas in October, only those who cared for him at the end of his life, when the number of virions he was shedding was likely to be very high, became infected. Notably, Duncan's family members who were living in the same household for days as he was at the start of his illness did not become infected.

The bolded part in particular is important. They weren't infected even after he was sent home for two days.

She is absolutely not a whiny attention whore. She is making an extremely important point about misinformation, fear mongering and constitutional rights. Not to mention the fact that the negative consequence of these unnecessary quarantines is discouraging medical volunteers to travel to Africa. And all officials agree medical volunteers to Africa is crucial in stopping this outbreak. So this negative consequence is very serious indeed.

I would not be as couragious as she. I would have obeyed qurantine because that is the easiest thing to do. I respect her resolve to stand up for what is actually reasonable and right in this situation.

Davian93
10-30-2014, 07:19 PM
I disagree. Tell me, why isn't her boyfriend in quarantine? If she is at risk of infecting others (thus the quarantine presumably) then he certainly poses a threat as well. (hint- it's because she's not actually contagious right now). And if they are both in quarantine, then how do they support themselves? Perhaps friends can don gloves and pass food through a doggy door, or else the friends must then be quarantined. Where does it end? And to house arrest people for 3 weeks because we can't trust their professionalism and honesty in this serious situation is absurd. These are healthcare professionals volunteering their time and risking their health to help- I think we owe them an iota of respect.

The boyfriend is/was voluntarily quarantining himself by doing online courses instead of attending college classes in person.

Also, the state of Maine and her employer already said her salary was being paid just as if she were at work so its a non-issue. If anything blame the idiot doctor in NYC who went bowling when symptomatic and then lied to authorities when he said he self-quarantined himself. Him gallivanting around a city of 8 million while coming down with a deadly disease freaked a bunch of people out.

Bottom line is she's just being an attention whore and gets off on this. There is plenty of case law saying that governors and the President can quarantine someone in this scenario...especially given that it doesn't matter if she isn't contagious until she's symptomatic as ebola doesn't always start with a fever anyway. Thus, her self-monitoring wouldn't be a 100% guarantee anyway.

She's not proving anything, she's not defending her freedoms or anyone else's. She's just a stupid attention-whore.

Kimon
10-30-2014, 08:20 PM
The boyfriend is/was voluntarily quarantining himself by doing online courses instead of attending college classes in person.

Also, the state of Maine and her employer already said her salary was being paid just as if she were at work so its a non-issue. If anything blame the idiot doctor in NYC who went bowling when symptomatic and then lied to authorities when he said he self-quarantined himself. Him gallivanting around a city of 8 million while coming down with a deadly disease freaked a bunch of people out.

Bottom line is she's just being an attention whore and gets off on this. There is plenty of case law saying that governors and the President can quarantine someone in this scenario...especially given that it doesn't matter if she isn't contagious until she's symptomatic as ebola doesn't always start with a fever anyway. Thus, her self-monitoring wouldn't be a 100% guarantee anyway.

She's not proving anything, she's not defending her freedoms or anyone else's. She's just a stupid attention-whore.

I don't think we can overlook collateral damage here in either direction. True, if she became symptomatic for ebola she should would present a danger to the public (although seemingly no where near as great as we perhaps originally thought, as the only patient treated here that has died was the first in Texas, and that quite clearly seems to have been caused by negligence, with perhaps a great likelihood that he would still have been alive but for the incompetence of that Texas hospital), but besides the fact that she returned from Africa and treated ebola patients, what reasonable grounds is there really for enforcing quarantine for her? Keep in mind, if merely being in contact with ebola patients is cause enough, why are we not then quarantining all the doctors, nurses, and cleaning staff that came into contact with the patients that treated subjects here as well? If treating anyone with ebola means a mandated 21 days of detention and isolation, who would be willing to treat anyone with ebola?

Davian93
10-30-2014, 08:29 PM
If treating anyone with ebola means a mandated 21 days of detention and isolation, who would be willing to treat anyone with ebola?

3 weeks of paid vacation where you have to stay at home? Yeah, I think people would be okay with it. If you told me I had to stay home PAID for 3 weeks, I'd be okay with it...especially if I had just spent 3-6 months in an armpit in West Africa.

Kimon
10-30-2014, 08:48 PM
3 weeks of paid vacation where you have to stay at home? Yeah, I think people would be okay with it. If you told me I had to stay home PAID for 3 weeks, I'd be okay with it...especially if I had just spent 3-6 months in an armpit in West Africa.

Even if it was unpaid? Even if you tested negative for ebola after admittance into quarantine? What if you still weren't symptomatic after 14 days? Would you still think another week seemed reasonable even without any indication that you might somehow be infected now or ever? You still wouldn't be pissed? You still wouldn't consider this a pointless endeavor aimed purely at window-dressing?

Davian93
10-30-2014, 09:06 PM
Even if it was unpaid? Even if you tested negative for ebola after admittance into quarantine? What if you still weren't symptomatic after 14 days? Would you still think another week seemed reasonable even without any indication that you might somehow be infected now or ever? You still wouldn't be pissed? You still wouldn't consider this a pointless endeavor aimed purely at window-dressing?

They already said they'd paid them (the states doing the quarantine so that's a non-issue...and in her case, her employer said it. She's on paid admin leave)

I'd be okay with 21 days because that's the incubation period regardless of if I'm symptomatic or not.

I'd get over it and I wouldn't be an attention whore.

I'd be okay especially if I was a doctor or nurse directly dealing with Ebola patients in West Africa before coming back.

Brita
10-30-2014, 09:31 PM
Nope, still don't buy it. All these people galavanting around with fevers have still not infected a single person in America. The only transfer is when the Dallas patient was dying and at his absolute most infectious. Even in Africa it seems to be the burial traditions that were a huge cause of spread. What happens to all the hospital staff currently treating the doctor? Do they go on shift and then go into quarantine? Do they go on shift and then aren't allowed to go home because they are needed to actually take care of the patient and yet are also on quarantine because they have cared for someone with Ebola?

It is a lot of complication for a threat that all experts agree is not real.

Davian93
10-30-2014, 09:38 PM
Of course its overly cautious...just like its overly cautious to quarantine all 3000 American soldiers coming back from Liberia when they return.

Why take any unnecessary risk even if its a very slim one?

Brita
10-30-2014, 10:00 PM
But what I'm saying is its not just overly cautious, it is detrimental. How do healthcare workers care for patients and get quarantined at the same time? How exactly does this work? And how do healthcare workers get home from Africa? is the US government going to fly them on private planes? If this was a full pandemic with truly global implications then healthcare workers would do what it takes (probably sequestered in the hospital from family and the public until the outbreak is over) but this isn't it. So this "quarantine" is lip service. It is not serving any real purpose but to make people feel like something is being done.

And to make healthcare workers think twice about caring for Ebola patients.

Davian93
10-30-2014, 10:03 PM
Is a 3 week paid vacation really all that onerous? Wouldn't you want the time to decompress anyway?

The tent thing in NJ/NY I could see as onerous but saying you have to stay in your house? I dont see it as that awful.

Brita
10-30-2014, 10:09 PM
It doesn't make sense , it's not a real quarantine, it serves no real purpose, it's not supported by any evidence and it creates stigma and fear. My argument has nothing to do with a paid vacation and everything to do with not over reacting and using common sense in difficult situations. That is important to me in my elected officials that have significant power over my life.

Btw, is this the first real disagreement we have ever had?

Davian93
10-30-2014, 10:24 PM
It doesn't make sense , it's not a real quarantine, it serves no real purpose, it's not supported by any evidence and it creates stigma and fear. My argument has nothing to do with a paid vacation and everything to do with not over reacting and using common sense in difficult situations. That is important to me in my elected officials that have significant power over my life.

Btw, is this the first real disagreement we have ever had?

It serves a purpose, it just doesn't have any real validity from a medical standpoint.

You know, it probably is. FWIW, I agree with you from a medical standpoint. I just don't see it as something that is outside the authority of the gov't. Quarantines have always been legal even if they are annoying.

Nazbaque
10-30-2014, 10:50 PM
Just a point I feel I must raise here but I don't see how she is the attention whore in this business. You know all the politicians and officials doing for the sake of being seen to do something.

GonzoTheGreat
10-31-2014, 04:05 AM
Of course its overly cautious...just like its overly cautious to quarantine all 3000 American soldiers coming back from Liberia when they return.

Why take any unnecessary risk even if its a very slim one?
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. - Benjamin Franklin.

Of course, he was probably speaking about giving up your own liberty, while you are merely proposing to surrender someone else's, so his quote may not apply.

yks 6nnetu hing
10-31-2014, 09:44 AM
I'll just leave this here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAz-F1QnyCk)

Davian93
10-31-2014, 10:07 AM
Gonzo, quarantine laws are hardly a new development...they've existed for centuries and used to be quite routinely used in the United States and other countries before the widespread use of vaccines to contain diseases.

Thus, that quote doesn't really apply.

Isabel
10-31-2014, 10:17 AM
I'll just leave this here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAz-F1QnyCk)

LOL

Uno
10-31-2014, 10:18 AM
It serves a purpose, it just doesn't have any real validity from a medical standpoint.


There's already too much pandering to panicky irrationality going on as it is. It's the same thing that makes us go through the meaningless motion of throwing away water bottles at airports as a kind of sacrifice to the gods of security. We all know that it accomplishes nothing at all, but we do it anyway, either simply because authority says we have to or because we actually believe in magic and think that the ritual gesture will somehow keep evil influences away. I suppose, though, that it reassures those one might reasonably call the sissies amongst us. The government might as well distribute security blankets as impose quarantines on people who are no medical threat.

GonzoTheGreat
10-31-2014, 10:24 AM
Gonzo, quarantine laws are hardly a new development...they've existed for centuries and used to be quite routinely used in the United States and other countries before the widespread use of vaccines to contain diseases.
And do quarantine laws get routinely used in the USA by politicians to lock up people without a trial?
Or are they normally only used if adequately qualified medical professionals say that someone should be quarantined?

I'm merely asking, of course. The evidence so far suggests that the answer would be "politicians decide, it is not based on any kind of science". Which raises the question: do you really want your politicians to have the power to lock up whoever they want whenever they want, as long as they can justify it with "she may have a disease"?

Brita
10-31-2014, 03:44 PM
Exactly Gonzo.

Davian93
10-31-2014, 06:07 PM
And do quarantine laws get routinely used in the USA by politicians to lock up people without a trial?
Or are they normally only used if adequately qualified medical professionals say that someone should be quarantined?

I'm merely asking, of course. The evidence so far suggests that the answer would be "politicians decide, it is not based on any kind of science". Which raises the question: do you really want your politicians to have the power to lock up whoever they want whenever they want, as long as they can justify it with "she may have a disease"?

She's been exposed regardless of any symptoms and it would only be a couple weeks...hardly indefinite. Gov't quarantines were routinely used from the Black Death on (Venice instituted routine quarantines of ships entering their city in that period and most gov'ts have since then) and it was routine for all immigrants coming to the US for a very long period too...I assume you are familiar with the history of Ellis Island and the other ports of entry for European immigrants?

This is hardly a new power or even an expansion of old powers...thus, I don't really see it as a huge 4th Amendment concern...especially as its not permanent but rather for a short period only for individuals who were directly working with victims of the disease.

I also don't see it as an effective way to prevent the spread of a disease that honestly doesn't spread easily anyway (unless you are an idiot West African that basically licks your dead relatives corpse due to silly funeral rites).

Also, given that she is being "locked up" in her own home and being paid her normal salary, it is hardly as if she is being thrown in prison.

Now...if they tried it for something else or tried to keep her quarantined longer than the 21 day incubation period...yeah, then I'd get outraged.

Regardless, a judge disagreed with the State of Maine and she has been released anyway...so she wins. Though she has to be directly monitored and she will do so through the 10th. So she's still being "controlled" by the state regardless.

Kimon
10-31-2014, 06:48 PM
She's been exposed regardless of any symptoms and it would only be a couple weeks...hardly indefinite. Gov't quarantines were routinely used from the Black Death on (Venice instituted routine quarantines of ships entering their city in that period and most gov'ts have since then) and it was routine for all immigrants coming to the US for a very long period too...I assume you are familiar with the history of Ellis Island and the other ports of entry for European immigrants?

This is hardly a new power or even an expansion of old powers...thus, I don't really see it as a huge 4th Amendment concern...especially as its not permanent but rather for a short period only for individuals who were directly working with victims of the disease.

I also don't see it as an effective way to prevent the spread of a disease that honestly doesn't spread easily anyway (unless you are an idiot West African that basically licks your dead relatives corpse due to silly funeral rites).

Also, given that she is being "locked up" in her own home and being paid her normal salary, it is hardly as if she is being thrown in prison.

Now...if they tried it for something else or tried to keep her quarantined longer than the 21 day incubation period...yeah, then I'd get outraged.

Regardless, a judge disagreed with the State of Maine and she has been released anyway...so she wins. Though she has to be directly monitored and she will do so through the 10th. So she's still being "controlled" by the state regardless.

Davian when I first brought this issue up I was concerned with two issues - first the appalling nature of her quarantine facility in New Jersey (which was a mistake at least not replicated by the governor of Maine), and second, the collateral damage (albeit perhaps intended consequence) of disincentivizing medical personnel from travelling abroad now, or in the future for similar outbreaks, to help combat the spread of just these sorts of epidemics. If faced with the nigh certainty of extended time in quarantine, neither employers nor employees will likely be capable of maintaining such a willingness to help when faced with such a time constraint following in addition to during their volunteering abroad. The fact that this would have been adequately handled in her particular case does not alter the negative effects that her case would inevitably have had in the future on the willingness and capability of others to similarly volunteer their time in such necessary, helpful, and yet dangerous circumstances in the future. For what little positive efficacy it would have served in seeking to combat the potential spread of ebola, it would have had a far greater negative efficacy in terms of discouraging medical volunteering and humanitarian work overseas.

As to your larger point about the right of the government to institute a quarantine for the sake of public safety, and of previous sources of precedence, you are obviously correct. But while this may serve to protect the psychological health of the public, is their truly good reason to believe that this woman is a threat to public health? If she was, why is it just medical personnel returning from overseas that are effected (at least at present) by these policies? It seems clear that it is politicians and not doctors that are behind this hysteria, and that it is poll numbers and the impending election that are of more primary concern than the actual health of the public.

Davian93
10-31-2014, 09:28 PM
In other Ebola news, Canada has basically shut down any travel to and from West Africa...

GonzoTheGreat
11-01-2014, 04:20 AM
Gov't quarantines were routinely used from the Black Death on (Venice instituted routine quarantines of ships entering their city in that period and most gov'ts have since then) and it was routine for all immigrants coming to the US for a very long period too...I assume you are familiar with the history of Ellis Island and the other ports of entry for European immigrants?
Of course I know about those things. Some of that was sensible, some of it was just based in xenophobia. In hindsight, some of the things that were sensible at the time didn't actually work, while in some other cases more stringent quarantine measures would have been called for.

What I argue is that these decisions should be made based on science, not on pandering to populist fears of "negro diseases" (or whatever the official GOP term for ebola is). I have read that a couple of governors ordered these quarantines; I haven't read any actual support from qualified medical professionals for these orders.
So it doesn't seem like a reasonable medical decision to me, it seems like a purely political fact free panic reaction; and you're supporting that. Perhaps those governors did get advise from whatever doctors are responsible for advising governors, but so far I haven't seen any references to that. And the fact that the judge disagreed with the government position suggests strongly that there wasn't any medical advise behind it too.

Brita
11-01-2014, 11:35 AM
In other Ebola news, Canada has basically shut down any travel to and from West Africa...

Ya :(. It certainly isn't just the US that is over reacting. Very disappointing.

The whole thing that so many years and so many efforts and so much money was spent on just seems to be disintegrating in this Ebola panic," Fidler said of the treaty.
"And to have countries like Australia and Canada be in the forefront of this is even more disheartening, because they had been shoulder to shoulder with us trying to build these regimes, these approaches and to keep us focused on having a disciplined approach in a [disease] crisis.

The lack of a reasoned response is disturbing. The nurse standing up for a reasonable response is praiseworthy, and not whining.

Frenzy
11-02-2014, 12:00 AM
The government might as well distribute security blankets as impose quarantines on people who are no medical threat.

i don't know, look what happened the last time the government handed out blankets..

GonzoTheGreat
11-02-2014, 03:26 AM
i don't know, look what happened the last time the government handed out blankets..
Come to think of it, your government might be able to remove a lot of fear (or fearful people, whatever) by repeating that proven policy.

Brita
11-11-2014, 07:12 AM
It looks like Canada is getting in on the overreaction (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ebola-crisis-canada-imposes-quarantine-self-monitoring-measures-1.2830569) action. Except we are even worse: we haven't had a single case in Canada. A single case. Way to go Harper 😕

Davian93
11-11-2014, 08:32 AM
It looks like Canada is getting in on the overreaction (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ebola-crisis-canada-imposes-quarantine-self-monitoring-measures-1.2830569) action. Except we are even worse: we haven't had a single case in Canada. A single case. Way to go Harper 😕

Clearly Harper's swift and sure-handed actions have prevented an outbreak.

Also, I have this rock for sale that prevents bears from attacking:

https://38.media.tumblr.com/7daf28ca5dcf6a6ef3ba6198715155fa/tumblr_mop2cyByKc1rg2ibdo1_500.jpg