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View Full Version : Was Sinistrum right all along?


Great Lord of the Dark
10-22-2014, 01:01 PM
13 yrs later, something has finally happened on Canadian soil. Was Sinistrum right about everything all along?

Is all the (illegal?) spying on citizens justified or proven to be impotent for all the effort put into it.

We are all good here in Ottawa. Bullets fired a few blocks away. Sirens wailing all day. Not worried 'bout nothin' except the ramifications to our society. I expect a stiff upper lip response will prevail.

Brita
10-22-2014, 01:05 PM
Glad you are OK- pretty scary stuff. Military bases across Canada have been shut down to any outside visitors. We don't know any details about the gunmen yet, but it will be interesting to learn the motivation behind it. I know we are all thinking another homegrown terrorist attack, but we don't know that yet.

GonzoTheGreat
10-22-2014, 01:24 PM
Was Sinistrum right about everything all along?
No.

I have to say that the "fight them over there so that they won't fight us over here" does not seem to work.

Davian93
10-22-2014, 02:43 PM
Instead of the PATRIOT Act, you will pass the POUTINE Act...and your society will never be the same.

Isabel
10-22-2014, 02:52 PM
Glad to hear you are allright.

It will be interesting to hear the motivation, although they are probably crazy people.
And you cannot stop all the crazy people:(

Davian93
10-22-2014, 02:57 PM
Glad to hear you are allright.

It will be interesting to hear the motivation, although they are probably crazy people.
And you cannot stop all the crazy people:(

There were official warnings about possible attacks of this sort by Jihadists earlier in the week...perhaps these were just that. The attack yesterday in Quebec also had alleged Jihadist links.

Very disturbing overall.

ShadowbaneX
10-22-2014, 08:32 PM
No. There's been plenty of worse violence in the general area, it's just that instead of it being a sports reporter, or some women at a school or similar, this time it was a soldier.

It's terrible, my condolences to those that lost a family member or friend, but Canada will go without the need for excessive & invasive laws thanks.

Davian93
10-22-2014, 10:02 PM
No. There's been plenty of worse violence in the general area, it's just that instead of it being a sports reporter, or some women at a school or similar, this time it was a soldier.

It's terrible, my condolences to those that lost a family member or friend, but Canada will go without the need for excessive & invasive laws thanks.

Harper has always wanted to be Bush...this might just be his chance.

Very sad overall though.

Great Lord of the Dark
10-22-2014, 10:30 PM
You know in French, they call Vladimir Putin: Vladimir POUTINE. Brilliant.

Good to see we haven't drifted from our decades-old positions. Maintain formation!

Touche, SBX. The products I regulate kill a lot more people in this country than jihadists.

It is of significant irony that the total cost to the perpetrators of both the Quebec hit and run and today's shooting was likely under 1000$.

Despite the sad and sudden events, the mop-up seems to have been carried out well and professionally. Our city's emergency response plan passes the test.

ShadowbaneX
10-22-2014, 10:46 PM
Despite the sad and sudden events, the mop-up seems to have been carried out well and professionally. Our city's emergency response plan passes the test.

Minor emergencies...well, ok, I guess this was a Major emergency, but, I wouldn't go so far as to say we're prepared for anything though. I'm guessing this was one guy with a rifle that essentially committed suicide by charging Parliament Hill.

(and here's where I show that I'm a horrible person)

If he'd been intent on doing as much damage or inflicting terror there's the Rideau Center to the North-East, (one of the biggest shopping malls in town), the University of Ottawa (one of the two major universities in town) directly East, the Chateau Laurier (one of the best hotels in town) immediately to the North, and a wide variety of other, densely populated areas everywhere else.

The only place the could have gone to ensure a quick end to the whole thing, the place where there's the most security, is where he went.

Kimon
10-22-2014, 11:15 PM
Minor emergencies...well, ok, I guess this was a Major emergency, but, I wouldn't go so far as to say we're prepared for anything though. I'm guessing this was one guy with a rifle that essentially committed suicide by charging Parliament Hill.

(and here's where I show that I'm a horrible person)

If he'd been intent on doing as much damage or inflicting terror there's the Rideau Center to the North-East, (one of the biggest shopping malls in town), the University of Ottawa (one of the two major universities in town) directly East, the Chateau Laurier (one of the best hotels in town) immediately to the North, and a wide variety of other, densely populated areas everywhere else.

The only place the could have gone to ensure a quick end to the whole thing, the place where there's the most security, is where he went.

We have been pretty lucky that most of the terrorist attacks since the WTC have been so inept. Unfortunately we have had plenty of home-grown (usually non-Muslim) psychopaths who have targeted those types of places. Hopefully ISIS and like-minded nutjobs haven't been listening too closely to all of our media outlets reminding us all day about how stupid the terrorists have been to not just target schools and malls.

The success of ISIS' domestic recruitment strategy has been alarming however. The dumb kid from Chicago, and others like him trying to go join the Caliphate I suppose isn't too surprising, but those three teenage girls from Colorado that were caught in Germany was much more alarming. At least their parents acted quickly enough to expedite their retrieval, but it still underscores both the terrifying efficacy of their recruitment tactics and should be a reminder of inevitable collateral damage. If we can't convince the Turks to forego their greater fear of a strengthened Kurdistan and actually help, this mission has all the appearance of ending just as disastrously as the missions in Afghanistan and Iraq did.

Khoram
10-23-2014, 01:15 AM
Of course this is all happening to soldiers just as I'm getting myself ready to actually enter the Forces. *sigh*

As far as I could figure out, the man who killed the sentry and shot up Parliament was carrying a double-barrelled shotgun. Not of much use for a terror attack especially considering the efficacy of turning a semi-auto weapon into a fully auto one. I saw a video from inside Parliament, and it seems that the man was able to get one shot off, and then you hear all the smaller caliber handguns being shot. Before losing track of all the sounds, I counted at least 16 shots. There were definitely more, though. He died after the shootout with police. Apparently he was flagged as a possible jihadist threat, and had his passport revoked.

I guess this means that my time in the military, when it begins, will be rather... well... exciting. It's looking like they're really going to need personnel after this. Or, at the very least, they'll increase their quota.

Edit: The BBC is saying that he was carrying a rifle. Don't know what to believe right now.

Brita
10-23-2014, 08:08 AM
If he'd been intent on doing as much damage or inflicting terror there's the Rideau Center to the North-East, (one of the biggest shopping malls in town), the University of Ottawa (one of the two major universities in town) directly East, the Chateau Laurier (one of the best hotels in town) immediately to the North, and a wide variety of other, densely populated areas everywhere else.

The only place the could have gone to ensure a quick end to the whole thing, the place where there's the most security, is where he went.

I am totally guessing here, but I think the attacks are highly symbolic- they are attacking the soldiers (and by extension the army) and the politicians who supported the army to assist in Iraq. I am not entirely sure they wanted to bring about as much damage as possible, but to make a statement and get attention. Mall and school shooting are just run-of-the-mill now (I feel terrible saying that, but there is some truth to it).

Davian93
10-23-2014, 08:38 AM
Brita is completely correct regarding the symbolic nature of the target. Sure, a shopping mall would be a higher body count but there is every indication that this individual wanted to attack the Canadian military/government, not just take a bunch of people with him. Thus the guard of the War Memorial serves dual purpsoes there.

I guess this means that my time in the military, when it begins, will be rather... well... exciting. It's looking like they're really going to need personnel after this. Or, at the very least, they'll increase their quota.

I believe it was the British Army that used to or might even still use this toast, "Here's to bloody wars and sickly seasons"

Those being the two quickest ways to get promoted...so, um, have fun.

Khoram
10-23-2014, 10:38 AM
I believe it was the British Army that used to or might even still use this toast, "Here's to bloody wars and sickly seasons"

Those being the two quickest ways to get promoted...so, um, have fun.

Well then. I guess I'll be reaching Colonel that much quicker. :/ Not necessarily the way I would hope to get promoted. XD

Davian93
10-23-2014, 10:40 AM
Apparently it was the British Navy (which sounds right), not the army. The point of the toast remains the same of course.

Khoram
10-23-2014, 01:58 PM
Anybody else listen the Harper's speech and think that there should have been a little more emotion? I just found it very cold. I feel like there should be more outrage and emotion, considering the nature of the events and where they took place.

ShadowbaneX
10-23-2014, 02:20 PM
Harper's a robot. He doesn't have any emotions to show.

As for the other, if the terrorists want to attack places that have guards protecting them, then by all means, please let them continue.

Besides the loss of Cpl. Cirillo, what's going to result is that the guarding of the war memorial will change, possibly with that ending or with arming them (although that's another whole can of worms), and more of the armsmen on the Hill being armed...oh, and the Leafs vs. Sens game last night was cancelled. It was a nice gesture of the Pittsburgh Penguins playing O Canada before the game last night.

Anyway, if they were trying to strike at the heart of our democracy they failed. I'm no more worried here than I was two days ago, and for reference, while I was outside the lockdown area, I am only some 2 km outside of it.

As a result of this I will probably be taking some time off work and attending the Remembrance Day Ceremonies at that very Memorial in three weeks.

tworiverswoman
10-23-2014, 03:04 PM
The thing about terrorist acts is that in isolation they cause anger, not fear. But if you are subjected to them with some frequency, the response changes. That's when you start getting the "Make us SAFE!" reaction from the general population.

Who never stop to realize that it's IMPOSSIBLE to be "safe" from this kind of thing - that's the whole point. But if the authority doesn't take action, the finger-pointing begins. So they take action. It's rarely a GOOD action - but hey. It's action.

Thus you end up with a citizenry that's lost its freedom. Step by step we do it to ourselves.

Davian93
10-23-2014, 03:08 PM
The thing about terrorist acts is that in isolation they cause anger, not fear. But if you are subjected to them with some frequency, the response changes. That's when you start getting the "Make us SAFE!" reaction from the general population.

Who never stop to realize that it's IMPOSSIBLE to be "safe" from this kind of thing - that's the whole point. But if the authority doesn't take action, the finger-pointing begins. So they take action. It's rarely a GOOD action - but hey. It's action.

Thus you end up with a citizenry that's lost its freedom. Step by step we do it to ourselves.

Action is better than inaction. Action shows surety. Action shows strength.

See, we're doing something, we care about you. It's going to be okay.

Very simple really.

tworiverswoman
10-23-2014, 06:30 PM
Action is better than inaction. Action shows surety. Action shows strength.

See, we're doing something, we care about you. It's going to be okay.

Very simple really.I understand the thinking behind it - and unfortunately it's a valid perception. Let me rephrase that - the idea that taking action OF ANY KIND is preferable to NOT taking action (good or bad) is perceived as being a positive thing.

Then later, you notice all the walls around you and start looking for the gates. Which are locked.

Davian93
10-23-2014, 08:19 PM
I understand the thinking behind it - and unfortunately it's a valid perception. Let me rephrase that - the idea that taking action OF ANY KIND is preferable to NOT taking action (good or bad) is perceived as being a positive thing.

Then later, you notice all the walls around you and start looking for the gates. Which are locked.


Oh, I agree with your sentiment completely.

GonzoTheGreat
10-24-2014, 04:17 AM
Anyway, if they were trying to strike at the heart of our democracy they failed.
Is there any indication that this was a matter of "they"? last I heard (which was yesterday, so there may be new news already) the guy had been acting entirely on his own.

If true, that's sort of important, since then it would not be justified to blame others for what this lone loony did.

Daekyras
10-24-2014, 05:40 AM
I know this is not a funny situation but when i read the story i did have a funny image pop into my head.

Has anyone seen demolition man? Its a brilliantly bad stallone movie from mid 90's.

Anyway, it is set in a utopian future where violence is basically obsolete. Then criminal wesley snipes is released and goes on a rampage.

every time he does something violent the police act clueless as to what to do. Basically like "stop that, stop what you are doing. That is not nice"

Thats what i imagined the canadian authorities response to have been.

Sorry, I know it is not a laughing matter but that is a very funny image.

ShadowbaneX
10-24-2014, 07:10 AM
Is there any indication that this was a matter of "they"? last I heard (which was yesterday, so there may be new news already) the guy had been acting entirely on his own.

If true, that's sort of important, since then it would not be justified to blame others for what this lone loony did.

On the news this morning they're reporting that there was an incident about him getting a passport and him being Syrian or interest in going over to Syria.

Now, he could have been just some guy that snapped about the fact that Winter is coming, but chances are if he was denied a passport, there was a reasonable decision behind that...


every time he does something violent the police act clueless as to what to do. Basically like "stop that, stop what you are doing. That is not nice"

Thats what i imagined the canadian authorities response to have been.

Funny you should mention that, it's pretty much exactly how it went down (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrGqoISd-do).

For those that don't know the doors along the side of that corridor are filled with the caucuses of 150+ people each.

GonzoTheGreat
10-24-2014, 11:24 AM
On the news this morning they're reporting that there was an incident about him getting a passport and him being Syrian or interest in going over to Syria.

Now, he could have been just some guy that snapped about the fact that Winter is coming, but chances are if he was denied a passport, there was a reasonable decision behind that...
Yeah, but that doesn't mean that anyone in Syria or anywhere else knew what he was doing. He may still have been just a lone idiot acting on his own, albeit one leaving enough clues to raise some red flags in Canadian security systems.

Khoram
10-24-2014, 11:27 AM
And Harper was one of them. Apparently he hid in a closet.

Davian93
10-24-2014, 11:44 AM
And Harper was one of them. Apparently he hid in a closet.

Harper's a closeted homosexual?!?

That explains so much!!!


On a somewhat serious note, we all had to take "Active Shooter" training a couple years back after the Navy Yard shooting. One of the questions on the anonymous test was a fill in the blank exercise where you had to type out what you would do if an active shooter entered your office area...my answer was as follows:

"I would hide behind the slower, dumber employees using them as shields until I could get to the emergency exit and get the hell out of there."

Davian93
10-24-2014, 11:48 AM
Yeah, but that doesn't mean that anyone in Syria or anywhere else knew what he was doing. He may still have been just a lone idiot acting on his own, albeit one leaving enough clues to raise some red flags in Canadian security systems.

To be fair, there has been a pretty solid trend in the past 5-10 years where we have a good number of "terrorists" who ideologically align themselves with radical Islam/Jihadism and will committ acts like this one to "further the cause" but who also do not need any direct line of communication with their inspirations for these attacks. The Boston Marathon bombers would be a good example of this. While the older one did definitely go back to Chechnya to train with extremists, they independently planned and executed their attack using things they found online...including the directions to build the pressure-cooker bomb that was found in Inspire Magazine (Anwar al-Awaki's pro-Al-quaida online magazine). So while they are technically "Lone wolves", they still far under the "Islamic Extremist" category of attacks. Thanks to internet recruiting and really good propaganda, its become very easy for them to exploit the natural idealism of these idiot youths.

SauceyBlueConfetti
10-24-2014, 12:14 PM
Story on CNN today about "Lone Wolf" situations and how they cannot be anticipated. Jihad and Isis sympathizers (etc., ALL radical sympathizers, regardless of the label) have been encouraged to start acting out. And now that it is starting, we likely will see more.

Like the hatchet attack on New York police officers. Hasn't hit the headlines yet, but the story is now spreading faster:

Hatchet attack terror related? (http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/23/us/new-york-police-attacked/index.html?hpt=hp_t2)

Khoram
10-24-2014, 12:17 PM
On a somewhat serious note, we all had to take "Active Shooter" training a couple years back after the Navy Yard shooting. One of the questions on the anonymous test was a fill in the blank exercise where you had to type out what you would do if an active shooter entered your office area...my answer was as follows:

"I would hide behind the slower, dumber employees using them as shields until I could get to the emergency exit and get the hell out of there."

Or you could do what Canadian MPs did - they sharpened flagpoles and were waiting for the gunman to walk in. Canadian ingenuity at it's finest. :D

Davian93
10-24-2014, 12:36 PM
Or you could do what Canadian MPs did - they sharpened flagpoles and were waiting for the gunman to walk in. Canadian ingenuity at it's finest. :D

Being impaled on a Canadian flag would have been a pretty hilarious way for him to be taken out.

GonzoTheGreat
10-24-2014, 12:50 PM
To be fair, there has been a pretty solid trend in the past 5-10 years where we have a good number of "terrorists" who ideologically align themselves with radical Islam/Jihadism and will committ acts like this one to "further the cause" but who also do not need any direct line of communication with their inspirations for these attacks. The Boston Marathon bombers would be a good example of this. While the older one did definitely go back to Chechnya to train with extremists, they independently planned and executed their attack using things they found online...including the directions to build the pressure-cooker bomb that was found in Inspire Magazine (Anwar al-Awaki's pro-Al-quaida online magazine). So while they are technically "Lone wolves", they still far under the "Islamic Extremist" category of attacks. Thanks to internet recruiting and really good propaganda, its become very easy for them to exploit the natural idealism of these idiot youths.
Still means that there is no "they" who are together plotting to strike at our democracy. Instead, there are a number of "he"s who do that kind of thing, with possibly the occasional "she" to mess up the statistics.

tworiverswoman
10-24-2014, 06:56 PM
Still means that there is no "they" who are together plotting to strike at our democracy. Instead, there are a number of "he"s who do that kind of thing, with possibly the occasional "she" to mess up the statistics.In the sense of orders being given and carried out by "soldiers" in the employ of "their" army, you are correct. But when you can find recruitment sites on the internet and "suggestions" to perform specific acts of violence against a targeted group or groups, then I think you can, in fact, say "they" are plotting against us.

It's just that "they" are not reachable. Or even identifiable, in many cases. It's like fighting fog. And, with America's concept of freedom of religion so firmly waved as a banner, we can't take what would appear to be the easy answer. That concept is IMPORTANT, and it's not going to be discarded even though there are an ever-increasing number of people who simply want to gather up everybody they think looks middle eastern (plus sympathizers) and ship them all over to the Dead Sea.

I see no way to resolve the matter.

ShadowbaneX
10-24-2014, 07:14 PM
I didn't hear about them sharpening them, but from what I heard those flagpoles have metal Maple Leafs decorating the top of them. Not exactly a spearhead, but with enough desperation it'll get the job done.