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Cor Shan
02-08-2015, 05:35 PM
Because there's a show on at 1:30AM.

Called Winter Dragon.

Synopsis:

Lewis Therin returns home to his family after a 10-year war against an army of darkness; he is greeted by an unexpected guest.

Daekyras
02-08-2015, 06:09 PM
Because there's a show on at 1:30AM.

Called Winter Dragon.

Synopsis:

Lewis Therin returns home to his family after a 10-year war against an army of darkness; he is greeted by an unexpected guest.

Really????? Must be a coincidence. How could that slip by the guys here???

Davian93
02-08-2015, 06:14 PM
I see it on the channel description but what the heck is this? How did we not know about this?

Cor Shan
02-08-2015, 07:16 PM
I don't understand. How did no-one know about this.

I mean, obviously if you're about to make a 14 book series into a TV series you don't do it without promotion, spending 22 minutes on a character that doesn't make it out of the prologue during the pilot....


My newest hunch is that it's basically lorem ipsum for something they haven't scheduled yet; whoever had to enter the schedule made a reference/joke instead of just putting "TBA".

Edit: Dragonmount says that Red Eagle Entertainment, who owns the rights, needs to release something in 2015 in order to reset their 7 year timer. (Source: http://www.dragonmount.com/index.php/News/events/wheel-of-time-tv-show-pilot-r849).

SauceyBlueConfetti
02-08-2015, 08:50 PM
Set to record. Posted on NON board too

Terez
02-08-2015, 09:01 PM
I will probably watch it when it comes on. Hopefully it won't be too painful.

Res_Ipsa
02-08-2015, 09:40 PM
Called my mom and she is recording it for me (I do not have a TV with cable or satellite).

How is this on at 1:30am, why are they not testing it at a better hour?

Terez
02-08-2015, 09:54 PM
Probably because it's going to suck, and they're trying to slip under the radar. Or, because FXX thinks it sucks and isn't worthy of a better air time.

kivo
02-09-2015, 12:46 AM
Probably because it's going to suck, and they're trying to slip under the radar. Or, because FXX thinks it sucks and isn't worthy of a better air time.

Indeed it sucks. Billy fucking Zane chewing scenery as Ishamael.

I wonder if they paid fxx to put this on, sort of how informercials buy time. No one would debut a real show like this

fionwe1987
02-09-2015, 12:52 AM
Probably because it's going to suck, and they're trying to slip under the radar. Or, because FXX thinks it sucks and isn't worthy of a better air time.

Anyone see this yet?

kivo
02-09-2015, 12:59 AM
So basically Harriet should sue and just use this as evidence that Red Eagle doesn't deserve the rights. Also shame on you, Billy Zane.

kivo
02-09-2015, 01:01 AM
Anyone see this yet?

Yes. It was as bad as you fear.

Terez
02-09-2015, 01:14 AM
Yup, it was terrible. The acting was incredibly underwhelming, the effects were so low-budget that they couldn't even manage the palace shaking, much less Dragonmount; Ilyena was a brunette, and Lews Therin fell on his sword. Off screen. The writing was terrible; they stretched it out for some god knows reason and made it more confusing than it needed to be.

Rand al'Fain
02-09-2015, 01:31 AM
So, no need to actually watch it then? Gotcha.

fionwe1987
02-09-2015, 02:01 AM
I'm guessing this basically destroys the chance for a WoT TV show, or even a semi-competent movie? Because I don't think anyone is going to want to touch it even if the pilot was sneakily aired in an obscure time slot.

Shame on Red Eagle for this.

GonzoTheGreat
02-09-2015, 04:48 AM
I suspect that Red Eagle is thinking that if they decide to do a serious series after all, they can always redo the Prologue. From what I've read (here in this very thread for instance) it doesn't sound as if they invested serious money in it, so just ditching that episode wouldn't cost them too much.

On the other hand, it also means that right now, RE does not have any intentions of starting working on this. If they had, they wouldn't have risked getting their actual production being dragged down by this substandard place holder.

Terez
02-09-2015, 05:20 AM
I'm sure a decent rip will be online some time tomorrow, and then everyone can watch it.

Terez
02-09-2015, 09:27 AM
Here's a recording someone made by taking a video of their TV:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0yA-ksW26KNY2RIelpSTFZaTlk/

Apparently several people are trying to figure out how to rip from DVR.

Terez
02-09-2015, 11:34 AM
Here's a rip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvNYIEN1vIg

Marie Curie 7
02-09-2015, 01:11 PM
Update from Harriet:

https://plus.google.com/103674399065634804648/posts/6nz79eMTNoG


Statement from Harriet

This morning brought startling news. A “pilot” for a Wheel of Time series, the "pilot" being called Winter Dragon, had appeared at 1:30 in the morning, East Coast time, on Fxx TV, a channel somewhere in the 700s (founded to concentrate on comedy, according to the Washington Post).

It was made without my knowledge or cooperation. I never saw the script. No one associated with Bandersnatch Group, the successor-in-interest to James O. Rigney, was aware of this.

Bandersnatch has an existing contract with Universal Pictures that grants television rights to them until this Wednesday, February 11 – at which point these rights revert to Bandersnatch.

I see no mention of Universal in the “pilot”. Nor, I repeat, was Bandersnatch, or Robert Jordan’s estate, informed of this in any way.

I am dumbfounded by this occurrence, and am taking steps to prevent its reoccurrence.

Harriet P McDougal
President and CEO
Bandersnatch Group, Inc.
February 9, 2015

DahLliA
02-09-2015, 01:45 PM
Man. That was just sad...

Hugh the Hand
02-09-2015, 02:54 PM
you know, I did not hate it.

I mean it was not good, kinda like a fan fiction thing.

it was better than that thing we saw a few months back with the giant hammer

DahLliA
02-09-2015, 03:31 PM
it was better than that thing we saw a few months back with the giant hammer

What did I miss this time? :p

WinespringBrother
02-09-2015, 04:40 PM
There is now a full version on youtube (with commercials).

I thought it wasn't too bad, though the script additions seemed overwrought, and Billy Zane failed at Ishamaels voice epically (I much prefer the audiobook narrator Michael Kramer's voice for him and LTT). The sound track was actually decent.

Khoram
02-09-2015, 05:15 PM
I watched it. I didn't have high hopes. It was in line with said hopes.

That being said, it could have been a lot worse.

Davian93
02-09-2015, 05:25 PM
Wow...that was just painfully awful.


I'd love to see an adaptation but it'd be hard to do it justice even if they went the GoT HBO route (well, I'd bet HBO's production team could make a good run of it at least).

Terez
02-09-2015, 05:58 PM
Fionwe was right: it was basically a paid infomercial on FXX:

http://io9.com/the-real-story-about-that-wheel-of-time-pilot-that-aire-1684773094

Edit: if anyone needed any more proof that Red Eagle would screw this up beyond belief:

So if the show does become an ongoing series, will they need to recast? Selvage says that since Lews Therin doesn't really appear outside of the prologue, no recasting might be necessary. The prologue is "really just a dialogue between good and evil, and you have to do the prologue and the age of legends in the series." The characters of Lews and Ishmael "don't necessarily show up other than flashbacks in the series."
Can anyone imagine the first three books without Ishamael?

Kimon
02-09-2015, 06:58 PM
Wow...that was just painfully awful.


I'd love to see an adaptation but it'd be hard to do it justice even if they went the GoT HBO route (well, I'd bet HBO's production team could make a good run of it at least).

The series is just too long to be effectively adapted. It would need to run at least 10 years to manage to get through all the books. If they ever really try (and I refuse to call that Billy Zane thing a serious attempt - or so at least I hope) they should just adapt the only concise story in the series - New Spring.

As bad as Billy Zane was, the guy that they pulled off the street to play Lews Therin was even worse.

fionwe1987
02-09-2015, 06:59 PM
Can anyone imagine the first three books without Ishamael?
Yeah, this shows a complete lack of understanding about the series. And the Prologue is not a dialogue between good and evil. It is tragic, and it sets the stakes of the story, and hints that the very Tolkien-ish beginning of EotW hides a somewhat less traditional story. What a way to misunderstand that.

Davian93
02-09-2015, 07:00 PM
The series is just too long to be effectively adapted. It would need to run at least 10 years to manage to get through all the books. If they ever really try (and I refuse to call that Billy Zane thing a serious attempt - or so at least I hope) they should just adapt the only concise story in the series - New Spring.

As bad as Billy Zane was, the guy that they pulled off the street to play Lews Therin was even worse.

If you cut out all of the tertiary crap and focused on the main characters, you could probably do it in 5-6 full seasons...maybe 7-8 depending. You could probably manage more than a season per book the first 5-6 books no issue and you could easily condense the 2nd half of the series given that so much of it is ultimately completely meaningless to the overall plot.

fionwe1987
02-09-2015, 07:03 PM
The series is just too long to be effectively adapted. It would need to run at least 10 years to manage to get through all the books. If they ever really try (and I refuse to call that Billy Zane thing a serious attempt - or so at least I hope) they should just adapt the only concise story in the series - New Spring.

As bad as Billy Zane was, the guy that they pulled off the street to play Lews Therin was even worse.

They don't need to go through all the books in detail. No screen adaptation can be faithful to every little sub-plot. And that's as it should be.

Frankly, I think a TV show can make for a stronger WoT story than the books as they exist. Many of the minor plot elements from the earlier books never paid off due to RJ's death. Excising them will only serve to put the strong central plot more in focus, which is great, because the story of Rand, Egwene, Mat, Perrin, Nynaeve and Elayne is pretty good, on the whole.

Around book 6/7 is where we had a great unspooling. Everyone separated, and we spent a lot of time watching their individual growth while they went through often times tedious plot motions before the LB. Snip those and focus on Rand's descent to madness, Egwene's growth to leadership, Mat's courting of Tuon, Elayne and Nynaeve working on the Andoran throne... and Perrin probably needs a whole new storyline, but that's it.

Entire sub-plots like the Shaido can and should be deleted to pave for a leaner story, which is the only way this can work for TV anyway. No reason the central themes and character development of the core can't make a great story.

fionwe1987
02-09-2015, 07:06 PM
If you cut out all of the tertiary crap and focused on the main characters, you could probably do it in 5-6 full seasons...maybe 7-8 depending. You could probably manage more than a season per book the first 5-6 books no issue and you could easily condense the 2nd half of the series given that so much of it is ultimately completely meaningless to the overall plot.

What is happening that we basically agree a 100%?

Southpaw2012
02-09-2015, 07:07 PM
Could've been worse. Zane was the best, though that's not saying much. Lews Therin looked about as different as can be imagined.

Davian93
02-09-2015, 07:09 PM
What is happening that we basically agree a 100%?

We both mellowed a bit with age. I know, its really scary to me too.

Kimon
02-09-2015, 07:09 PM
If you cut out all of the tertiary crap and focused on the main characters, you could probably do it in 5-6 full seasons...maybe 7-8 depending. You could probably manage a season per book the first 5-6 books no issue and you could easily condense the 2nd half of the series given that so much of it is ultimately completely meaningless to the overall plot.

Probably easier just to end the series after the Dragon Reborn and pretend that Ba'alzamon was really the Dark One rather than just Ishamael. That way they could cut out most of the Chosen, most of the Aes Sedai, all of the Asha'man...

Still think that New Spring would be better.

Davian93
02-09-2015, 07:11 PM
Could've been worse. Zane was the best, though that's not saying much. Lews Therin looked about as different as can be imagined.

Outside of making it a snuff film, I'm not sure how...but I will agree that Zane was the "best" part of this.

I mean, when you have access to a talent as amazing as Zane, you are just lucky all around.


To me, this says to me more about Billy's Zane's current career trajectory than it does about a potential WoT adaptation.

fionwe1987
02-09-2015, 07:13 PM
Probably easier just to end the series after the Dragon Reborn and pretend that Ba'alzamon was really the Dark One rather than just Ishamael. That way they could cut out most of the Chosen, most of the Aes Sedai, all of the Asha'man...

Nah, that completely misses all the big battles and cool stuff we have later. And the Chosen are actually pretty good for TV. They will have a field day with Graendal, really. All the pretty naked people, and you don't even have to deviate from the books!

Davian93
02-09-2015, 07:14 PM
Probably easier just to end the series after the Dragon Reborn and pretend that Ba'alzamon was really the Dark One rather than just Ishamael. That way they could cut out most of the Chosen, most of the Aes Sedai, all of the Asha'man...

Still think that New Spring would be better.

That would also work really well. You could probably flesh out some of it and maybe do a 3 season series that ends with the battle of the Stone and that version of Ishy being the "real" Dark One. Say a 3 season HBO/Showtime type series of 10-12 hour long episodes each. That way you could hit on most of the major plot points without having it drag massively. We'd still get to see the Aiel, a bit more of Fain, the Amyrlin, White Tower, Lanfear, and some other major pieces of the story that I'd imagine we'd want to.

Sadly, Berelain would only get a cameo at the very end and that would be just tragic. Sweet, sweet Berelain.

Kimon
02-09-2015, 07:16 PM
Nah, that completely misses all the big battles and cool stuff we have later. And the Chosen are actually pretty good for TV. They will have a field day with Graendal, really. All the pretty naked people, and you don't even have to deviate from the books!

Well assuming HBO, if New Spring they could have a bunch of Moiraine and Siuan lesbian scenes, plus Lan banging a bunch of random wenches.

Davian93
02-09-2015, 07:18 PM
Well assuming HBO, if New Spring they could have a bunch of Moiraine and Siuan lesbian scenes, plus Lan banging a bunch of random wenches.

Its essential to the plot, dammit!!!




On a serious note, my "favorite" gratuitous part of GoT is when they have Littlefinger just happen to have all his expository dialogue in a brothel while multiple lewd sex acts are going on in front of him...you know, because that's totally a normal place to hold such conversations.

fionwe1987
02-09-2015, 07:19 PM
Well assuming HBO, if New Spring they could have a bunch of Moiraine and Siuan lesbian scenes, plus Lan banging a bunch of random wenches.

Not the same, is it? The major issue with New Spring is that it is very Prequel-y.

On the other hand, what a trop-breaking series it would be to show a female lead hunting for a baby to train him to save the world. Kind of like Gotham for WoT. I'd totally not mind if they extend this into a few seasons of "The Adventures of Moraine and her sidekick Lan".

fionwe1987
02-09-2015, 07:21 PM
On a serious note, my "favorite" gratuitous part of GoT is when they have Littlefinger just happen to have all his expository dialogue in a brothel while multiple lewd sex acts are going on in front of him...you know, because that's totally a normal place to hold such conversations.

Its eerie how well this describes almost any Graendal scene. Naked beautiful people in scandalous clothes doing scandalous things as the master manipulator expounds on her devious schemes. I'm now curious if the writers of GoT took a leaf from RJ.

Davian93
02-09-2015, 07:23 PM
Not the same, is it? The major issue with New Spring is that it is very Prequel-y.

On the other hand, what a trop-breaking series it would be to show a female lead hunting for a baby to train him to save the world. Kind of like Gotham for WoT. I'd totally not mind if they extend this into a few seasons of "The Adventures of Moraine and her sidekick Lan".

For me, the "worst" part of any WoT adaptation now would be all the idiots calling it "the next GoT" or saying its "GoT derivative". That would be more insulting than anything I think.


Also, one of the reasons that GoT works on the adaptation to the wider audience is that they've basically dumbed down all the really interesting stuff that was going on and eliminated the complicated stuff (not that GRRM really delved deep there). Imagine WoT being massively dumbed down.

Terez
02-09-2015, 07:27 PM
I think that WoT could be done well in 7-8 seasons. Really well. They would just need a smart screenwriter.

Incidentally, RJ had a to-do list in his notes that was preserved and donated to the College of Charleston library. One of the things on his list was to get some books about screenwriting.

fionwe1987
02-09-2015, 07:27 PM
For me, the "worst" part of any WoT adaptation now would be all the idiots calling it "the next GoT" or saying its "GoT derivative". That would be more insulting than anything I think.
I think the stories are sufficiently distinct though. WoT is more like the bridge between LotR and GoT. Its a clone of neither.

Also, Eragon had a movie, and apparently Shannara has been optioned. So those whiners have far better targets.

Also, one of the reasons that GoT works on the adaptation to the wider audience is that they've basically dumbed down all the really interesting stuff that was going on and eliminated the complicated stuff (not that GRRM really delved deep there). Imagine WoT being massively dumbed down.
WoT dumbed down some would be good. Do it too much, and yeah, it would be truly awful.

fionwe1987
02-09-2015, 07:28 PM
I think that WoT could be done well in 7-8 seasons. Really well. They would just need a smart screenwriter.

Incidentally, RJ had a to-do list in his notes that was preserved and donated to the College of Charleston library. One of the things on his list was to get some books about screenwriting.

Hey... anymore tidbits from your readings there that you can share now?

Terez
02-09-2015, 07:31 PM
Hey... anymore tidbits from your readings there that you can share now?
After the Encyclopedia. And not right after...probably a matter of months after the release, I will feel free to talk more.

kivo
02-09-2015, 07:34 PM
The Game of Thrones crew could probably shoot the entire Wheel of Time, one 10 episode season per book except Crossroads of Twilight which is rolled into Winters Hearts season, while they wait for GRRM to finish his next book.

Terez
02-09-2015, 07:38 PM
It just wouldn't work. The actors would age too much, and the longer a series stretches on the more likely it is actors will move on and there will be painful recasts.

Davian93
02-09-2015, 07:42 PM
I think that WoT could be done well in 7-8 seasons. Really well. They would just need a smart screenwriter.

Incidentally, RJ had a to-do list in his notes that was preserved and donated to the College of Charleston library. One of the things on his list was to get some books about screenwriting.

Out of curiosity, and you don't have to answer this if you don't want but did finding things like that in his notes (which must have been a phenomenal experience for you or any scholar) cause you to choke up at all? I imagine I would have been very misty-eyed personally.

fionwe1987
02-09-2015, 07:43 PM
Wow. The story is hitting the big leagues. The Verge had an article about it:

http://www.theverge.com/2015/2/9/8008387/wheel-of-time-pilot-fxx

Davian93
02-09-2015, 07:43 PM
The Game of Thrones crew could probably shoot the entire Wheel of Time, one 10 episode season per book except Crossroads of Twilight which is rolled into Winters Hearts season, while they wait for GRRM to finish his next book.

Those Jets and Giants games aren't gonna watch themselves and if he didn't go to the MinskComicCon, the Belarussians would be quite insulted.


Note: I am unsure if there is a ComicCon in Minsk but if there were and he were invited, I am 100% certain he would go. There is zero chance he will ever finish those books.

Davian93
02-09-2015, 07:47 PM
It just wouldn't work. The actors would age too much, and the longer a series stretches on the more likely it is actors will move on and there will be painful recasts.

Hell, just look at the recasting of secondary characters in GoT alone...and that's only over 4 seasons now. 2-3 different Mountains, the new Daario who was just awful. Tommen, Karstark, Dondarrion, etc.

Terez
02-09-2015, 07:57 PM
Out of curiosity, and you don't have to answer this if you don't want but did finding things like that in his notes (which must have been a phenomenal experience for you or any scholar) cause you to choke up at all? I imagine I would have been very misty-eyed personally.
That list in particular was touching, and a few other things, but for the most part the excitement drowned everything else out.

Davian93
02-09-2015, 08:02 PM
That list in particular was touching, and a few other things, but for the most part the excitement drowned everything else out.

I could see that.

ShadowbaneX
02-09-2015, 08:02 PM
Fionwe was right: it was basically a paid infomercial on FXX:

http://io9.com/the-real-story-about-that-wheel-of-time-pilot-that-aire-1684773094

Edit: if anyone needed any more proof that Red Eagle would screw this up beyond belief:


Can anyone imagine the first three books without Ishamael?

Seeing as how it was Ba'alzamon and we don't really find out that they're one in the same until the end of tDR they could pull it off...but yeah, epic fail.

ShadowbaneX
02-09-2015, 08:12 PM
For me, the "worst" part of any WoT adaptation now would be all the idiots calling it "the next GoT" or saying its "GoT derivative". That would be more insulting than anything I think.

They've been pulling crap like this for a long time. Many people think that Lord of the Rings movies was the first iteration of the franchise and the books are just a tie in like you see printed for other movies.

Or its steals from Dragonball Z or something.

fionwe1987
02-09-2015, 08:18 PM
Or its steals from Dragonball Z or something.
The worst was a guy I knew who got offended that this Tolkien guy stole from Christopher Paolini... :mad:

Davian93
02-09-2015, 08:18 PM
They've been pulling crap like this for a long time. Many people think that Lord of the Rings movies was the first iteration of the franchise and the books are just a tie in like you see printed for other movies.

Or its steals from Dragonball Z or something.

Um, pretty sure Peter Jackson, the author of the Lord of the Rings, would disagree with you there, chief.


On a serious adaptation note, the best way would be an animated series...for budget, aging issues, etc. Far easier to do it animated than live action.

Davian93
02-09-2015, 08:19 PM
The worst was a guy I knew who got offended that this Tolkien guy stole from Christopher Paolini... :mad:

How hard did you hit him? I would have.

Terez
02-09-2015, 08:29 PM
Seeing as how it was Ba'alzamon and we don't really find out that they're one in the same until the end of tDR they could pull it off...but yeah, epic fail.
Rand's very first conversation with Ba'alzamon:
"You are bound—"

"Fool, I have never been bound!" The fires of his face roared so hot that Rand stepped back, sheltering behind his hands. The sweat on his palms dried from the heat. "I stood at Lews Therin Kinslayer's shoulder when he did the deed that named him. It was I who told him to kill his wife, and his children, and all his blood, and every living person who loved him or whom he loved. It was I who gave him the moment of sanity to know what he had done. Have you ever heard a man scream his soul away, worm? He could have struck at me, then. He could not have won, but he could have tried. Instead he called down his precious One Power upon himself, so much that the earth split open and reared up Dragonmount to mark his tomb."

ShadowbaneX
02-09-2015, 08:32 PM
Rand's very first conversation with Ba'alzamon:

and yet, roaring fire face so totally doesn't describe Billy Zane.

My point is that we don't need Ishamael in for the first three books. Sure you have some Bruce looking dude in the first one show up, but after that you can have someone else in a green suit do all the talky bits and then use some CGI for screaming fire at the boys, dark friends, Padan Fain and whomever else is around for the next three books. After that Ishy buys it and comes back as Moridin, no need to pay such a high grade actor like Billy Zane to come back and reprise the role.

Terez
02-09-2015, 08:35 PM
and yet, roaring fire face so totally doesn't describe Billy Zane.
Ishamael looked normal most of the time. His initial description is standard:

A man stood in front of the fireplace. He had not noticed the man when he first came in. If he had not known it was impossible, he would have said no one had been there until he actually looked at the man. Dressed in dark clothes of a fine cut, he seemed in the prime of his maturity, and Rand supposed women would have found him good-looking.

"Once more we meet face-to-face," the man said and, just for an instant, his mouth and eyes became openings into endless caverns of flame.

Khoram
02-09-2015, 08:38 PM
The worst was a guy I knew who got offended that this Tolkien guy stole from Christopher Paolini... :mad:

That hurts me so much. :(

ShadowbaneX
02-09-2015, 08:43 PM
Ishamael looked normal most of the time. His initial description is standard:

and that'd be a bit of a spoiler, then wouldn't it? We just get descriptions in the series, actually seeing it would be different, a bit of a give away, sorta like how in the Iron Man movie if you can speak the language in the movie, the twist about Obadiah Stane being the one behind it all isn't a twist because the come right out and say it.

It's a twist to us because we don't speak the language, much like it's a bit of a twist in the books because we don't have the same cognizant knowledge as to the exact physical appearance of the two.

So, if you were to do this as a series and didn't want to give that part away right of the top, cause, hey, if it's the same actor, they're giving it away, you have them look different...or just use lots of CGI like I said above. :cool:

Davian93
02-09-2015, 08:43 PM
That hurts me so much. :(

A careful study of Mr. Paolini's works will quickly show you that pretty much all of the so-called "greats" of the sci-fi/fantasy genres basically stole large parts of his epic vision for their own less original projects. In fact, I can't think of a single other writer in the field whose work is not clearly derivative of The Paolini.

ShadowbaneX
02-09-2015, 08:45 PM
Um, pretty sure Peter Jackson, the author of the Lord of the Rings, would disagree with you there, chief.

Dav. I need you to punch yourself in the face. There's humour, tasteless humour, DT's humour and then there's that. We have standards...at least as far down as DT's sheep jokes. I mean his jokes aren't even funny, but we still grit our teeth and tolerate them. What you posted is just going way too far man.

Terez
02-09-2015, 08:47 PM
and that'd be a bit of a spoiler, then wouldn't it?
Not really. In the books, you know the first time Rand meets Ba'alzamon that it's the same guy from the prologue (unless you're hopelessly unobservant). In the show, it's the same, except you know the instant you see him, rather than one minute into the scene.

Rand al'Fain
02-09-2015, 08:53 PM
Um, pretty sure Peter Jackson, the author of the Lord of the Rings, would disagree with you there, chief.


On a serious adaptation note, the best way would be an animated series...for budget, aging issues, etc. Far easier to do it animated than live action.

Yep. Although make up can do wonders to hide people's ages and other such things (SyFy even had a show dedicated to that sort of thing for awhile, may even still be around), the animated route would be the best.
And high quality animated shows do exist, like the Avatar series for example.

Let's not forget the Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit both had animated movies for decades before Peter Jackson made his two trilogies (money grubbers on The Hobbit. So full of filler and plots that would not go anywhere unless you never read the books).

As for that thing Red Eagle called an "adaptation", ugh. For one, I think they took that costume set from The Sound of Music Live Performance. The setting was no where near how I had always invisioned it either. It was like a Victorian era mansion. I know the Age of Legends was advanced, but not in that way.

Ilyena is apprantly "Illiana" and has dark brown hair rather than golden hair. They couldn't even bother with a wig or dying the actresses hair.

I only made it about half way through before I had to turn it off, but where were the guests? It showed his wife and kids (well, hallucinations of them), but from the book, it should have been a celebration with all of his family, friends, and loved ones gone horribly wrong when he loses his sanity.

Billy Zane was at least OK. Not great, but I have seen worse iterations of important characters in movie adaptations. The guy who played Lews Therin, was not really how I imagined him. Longer hair, about the bottom of the ear or so, like Aragorn, (still with some color in it), a neatly trimmed beard, and looking more like someone who had spent years in a viscious war rather than going to Victorian Era balls and parties.

Just everything was off about it. And it hurt. Not as bad as they will though when Harriet rips into them though.

ShadowbaneX
02-09-2015, 08:56 PM
Not really. In the books, you know the first time Rand meets Ba'alzamon that it's the same guy from the prologue (unless you're hopelessly unobservant). In the show, it's the same, except you know the instant you see him, rather than one minute into the scene.

Not entirely. I've been reading through someone's first* through the series and I must say he's very good at picking up on details. One that he didn't get was that Ishy & Ba'alzamon are the same person.

For people that have been through the series a bunch, yes, there are lots of hints and clues there it is possible for people to pick up on it. That said, the majority of the people that would view this on TV wouldn't pick up on that information.

*technically second, but he stopped halfway through tEotW the first time because it isn't quite the book for 10 year olds and he read it about the time it first came out, so 20 years or so. Lots of time to forget.

Terez
02-09-2015, 08:59 PM
Not entirely. I've been reading through someone's first* through the series and I must say he's very good at picking up on details. One that he didn't get was that Ishy & Ba'alzamon are the same person.
There really is no excuse for that. It's spelled out plain as day.

Khoram
02-09-2015, 09:01 PM
A careful study of Mr. Paolini's works will quickly show you that pretty much all of the so-called "greats" of the sci-fi/fantasy genres basically stole large parts of his epic vision for their own less original projects. In fact, I can't think of a single other writer in the field whose work is not clearly derivative of The Paolini.

Silly Dav. Everybody knows that all popular works of SciFi/fantasy are derivates of The Yeard. :rolleyes:

ShadowbaneX
02-09-2015, 09:03 PM
Ummm, actually there is. Lots of people miss lots of things, especially on their first read through. You're looking at it through hindsight T, especially after multiple rereads. Not everyone is going to pick up on every detail the first time through.

You're also only looking at it from the books perspective. Things get changed when going from book to teleplay & script. If they wanted to recast Billy Zane they could get away with it, which was the point/joke I was making.

fionwe1987
02-09-2015, 09:07 PM
Wired ran a detailed story about this! :eek:

http://www.wired.com/2015/02/wheel-of-time-tv-pilot/

ShadowbaneX
02-09-2015, 09:08 PM
Wired ran a detailed story about this! :eek:

http://www.wired.com/2015/02/wheel-of-time-tv-pilot/
Must be a slow news day.

Terez
02-09-2015, 09:12 PM
Ummm, actually there is. Lots of people miss lots of things, especially on their first read through. You're looking at it through hindsight T, especially after multiple rereads. Not everyone is going to pick up on every detail the first time through.
I picked up on this one immediately. And I'm pretty sure you're the one looking at it through hindsight. It's been so long since you've read the books that you think that because the characters didn't know who Ba'alzamon was until the end of book 3, that we didn't either. I still pick up new things every time I reread, but not things that were clearly spelled out in the text like this.

ShadowbaneX
02-09-2015, 09:16 PM
Good for you T. Since everyone reads it the exact same way you do, this must be the interpretation that everyone else must abide by. Please tell me, when are you coming out with your definitive guide to the series so I'll know exactly how I'm supposed to read it?

Marie Curie 7
02-09-2015, 09:17 PM
I so totally understand now. The Wheel of Time is actually a giant pizza pie.

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o71/mariecurie7/wheel.png (http://s117.photobucket.com/user/mariecurie7/media/wheel.png.html)

fionwe1987
02-09-2015, 09:17 PM
Must be a slow news day.

More likely, a bunch of WoT fans work in the tech press.

ShadowbaneX
02-09-2015, 09:19 PM
If that's the case why is Red Eagle trying to hog it all to themselves? Share the pie, share the love, man.

fionwe1987
02-09-2015, 09:19 PM
Good for you T. Since everyone reads it the exact same way you do, this must be the interpretation that everyone else must abide by. Please tell me, when are you coming out with your definitive guide to the series so I'll know exactly how I'm supposed to read it?

Ok, I get that not everyone reads books and interprets things the same way. But the "Ba'alzamon=Ishy" thing was hardly a hidden thing. There were tons of other hints in EotW if you missed this first one.

ShadowbaneX
02-09-2015, 09:21 PM
More likely, a bunch of WoT fans work in the tech press.

That's possible...I'm still gonna go with slow news day. I have this feeling that WoT fans, even in the tech press don't have enough pull to put in articles like this unless nothing else is happening.

That said, no doubt Terez will be in here any moment to correct me.

Khoram
02-09-2015, 09:22 PM
I so totally understand now. The Wheel of Time is actually a giant pizza pie.

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o71/mariecurie7/wheel.png (http://s117.photobucket.com/user/mariecurie7/media/wheel.png.html)

That pizza pie is really hitting me hard in the eye. And it ain't amore.

ShadowbaneX
02-09-2015, 09:25 PM
Ok, I get that not everyone reads books and interprets things the same way. But the "Ba'alzamon=Ishy" thing was hardly a hidden thing. There were tons of other hints in EotW if you missed this first one.
*sigh* fine, I read the books wrong the first time I read them all those years ago. Can you possibly find it in your pedantic hearts to forgive stupid, naive teenage SBX? I don't think I'll be able to sleep without your approval and forgiveness.

edit: shit, I forgot the sarcasm emote...hummm, where'd that go? Dammit, :):confused:;):p:mad::D:o:eek::cool:. There, that's all of them, it's bound to be in there somewhere. We good now?

Terez
02-09-2015, 09:26 PM
Good for you T. Since everyone reads it the exact same way you do, this must be the interpretation that everyone else must abide by. Please tell me, when are you coming out with your definitive guide to the series so I'll know exactly how I'm supposed to read it?
I'm just saying, if you didn't figure that out, then your observational skills are weak. You're the one that tried to pretend like we didn't know who Ba'alzamon was until the end of book 3, as if that were a standard reading of the series.

Kimon
02-09-2015, 09:27 PM
Good for you T. Since everyone reads it the exact same way you do, this must be the interpretation that everyone else must abide by. Please tell me, when are you coming out with your definitive guide to the series so I'll know exactly how I'm supposed to read it?

If they do ever get around to adapting the whole series, they could correct what should have been an obvious catch by every reader that RJ either hadn't intended or changed his mind on, and make Taim really be Demandred.

Heck, they could also fix the other "mistake", and have Moiraine really die, and come back instead for TG just as a Hero of the Horn.

And, in an effort to curtail the size of the cast, they could conveniently excise Egwene and Perrin...

ShadowbaneX
02-09-2015, 09:28 PM
And I'm sure you're exactly the same as when you first read the series.

fionwe1987
02-09-2015, 09:28 PM
*sigh* fine, I read the books wrong the first time I read them all those years ago. Can you possibly find it in your pedantic hearts to forgive stupid, naive teenage SBX? I don't think I'll be able to sleep without your approval and forgiveness.


There's no call to get all passive aggressive. You didn't see that? Fine. But that is hardly justification for REE to not know that Ishamael is in the first three books of the series, and is identifiable both from his appearance and what he says.

Callandor
02-09-2015, 09:38 PM
Stand back everyone! I have a piece of paper on a wall that I paid $17,000 to get that claims I have a degree in making films, and we have a Wheel of Time adaptation on our hands.

It's my time to shine!

I mean, when you have access to a talent as amazing as Zane, you are just lucky all around.

Nevermind, this quote sums it all up.

No one gave a shit about this.

You get 80s drama music and special effects from the 80s with the "reveal" that Lews Therin killed his family. Process that for a moment.

The one that got me the most was one of my favorite rants, Ishamael's victory crow, being delivered by Billy Zane as if he was telling us what the lunch options were at a high school cafeteria.

This was beyond sad, and I had zero expectations at the outset. I knew I was signing up to watch 30 minutes of someone sodomizing my dreams but COME ON (http://youtu.be/SP_9zH9Q44o)!

I'm trying to think of this as if I was a person who knew nothing of the books (admittedly futile), but even still, the best I can think of is that it personifies every bad trope of fantasy shows. Added on top of that is the general "WTF just happened at the end?" and not in any positive sense.

Anyone watching this for the first time will experience many snap judgments:

1. This is cheap as hell.

2. This is overwritten and exposition heavy.

3. Why is there a giant wheel floating in a background of... fire? Redness?

4. Wasn't Billy Zane last in The Phantom (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0117331/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1)?

5. Loser There-in can't act.

6. Who has kids that play with that many dolls? THE DRAMA OF THE DOLLS!

7. This is Billy Zane imitating Billy Zane playing that evil douche in Titanic.

8. So, the guy just offed himself with a sword he picked up?

9. Did he? Or did he just fantasize himself back to his family members, ignoring the guy in his (apparently) one room home who threatened to kill him and tempted him with everything he wanted?

10. 10, ya bastards.

What the hell was that clusterfuck?

http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/pimp.gif

ShadowbaneX
02-09-2015, 09:45 PM
Please define "REE".

Further just because some picked up on it, isn't justification for assuming that everyone picked up on it, and making sweeping assumptions that everyone that missed it is in some way inferior or lacking in reading comprehension.

The point I was originally making was that if they were to take this as the basis for a series and didn't want to bring back Billy Zane to play the role, they could make a switch and just apply some CGI to cover up the actor's face. The hard break where there has to be that connection is when it's announced at the end of tDR, at which point Rand's shanked Ishy/Ba'alzamon by that point and you can bring in someone else regardless.

Terez
02-09-2015, 09:52 PM
Now on Wired:

http://www.wired.com/2015/02/wheel-of-time-tv-pilot/

Terez
02-09-2015, 09:56 PM
Please define "REE".
Red Eagle Entertainment

Further just because some picked up on it, isn't justification for assuming that everyone picked up on it, and making sweeping assumptions that everyone that missed it is in some way inferior or lacking in reading comprehension.
Sorry, but this is not some buried hint that one must be clever to "pick up on". It's spelled out. It's like not picking up on the fact that Rand asked Egwene to dance with him.

You misremembered something and made a bad point. I corrected it. You got defensive and made another bad point, which I also corrected. You got even more defensive. End of story.

Marie Curie 7
02-09-2015, 09:58 PM
Stand back everyone! I have a piece of paper on a wall that I paid $17,000 to get that claims I have a degree in making films, and we have a Wheel of Time adaptation on our hands.

It's my time to shine!

Hey Callandor!



The one that got me the most was one of my favorite rants, Ishamael's victory crow, being delivered by Billy Zane as if he was telling us what the lunch options were at a high school cafeteria.

Yeah, he really didn't get any of Ishamael's emotions in this. The whole power of the prologue scene is lost.


3. Why is there a giant wheel floating in a background of... fire? Redness?

Like I noted: the pizza pie of time.


5. Loser There-in can't act.

The extreme anguish when he realizes that he just killed his entire family...did I miss it?


6. Who has kids that play with that many dolls? THE DRAMA OF THE DOLLS!

The whole line of dolls down the hallway like a trail of breadcrumbs was beyond silly.


And why was the Dragon banner green and white? :s

Terez
02-09-2015, 10:00 PM
The extreme anguish when he realizes that he just killed his entire family...did I miss it?
All three levels. Each scream worse than the last.

1. Realizes Ilyena is dead.
2. Healed by the True Power. (ouch?)
3. Realizes he killed Ilyena.

Marie Curie 7
02-09-2015, 10:02 PM
Also, let's please keep the sniping and personal attacks to a minimum--that goes for everyone. I mean, come on...we have an actual active WoT-related thread!

fionwe1987
02-09-2015, 10:06 PM
Also, let's please keep the sniping and personal attacks to a minimum--that goes for everyone. I mean, come on...we have an actual active WoT-related thread!

All "credit" to REE.

Marie Curie 7
02-09-2015, 10:17 PM
All "credit" to REE.

Larry Mondragon of REE has posted here a few times. He still has an account (al'Lan Mondragon, last login in August 2013). Maybe he'll come by and answer our questions. :)

Terez
02-09-2015, 10:27 PM
Don't hold your breath.

ShadowbaneX
02-09-2015, 10:27 PM
Ah, ok, that sentence makes some sense now. Given how badly they've mangled everything else, yeah, I do think it's quite possible for them to have messed that up to.

Yes, I made a bad point re: the books, but not necessarily the series that could have been developed. They don't always have to follow the books, they could have Ba'alzamon being flaming fire face all the time, that's their decision...well, not really their decision since I doubt that the series is going to get made, but the entirety of my point wasn't exclusive to the series.

Sure, if they followed the book series 100%, then yes, they wouldn't have gotten away with it...then again, looking what they did and did not get right with just the prologue, something tells me they weren't going to be sticking to the books word for word.

I mentioned at least one other person that was doing a reread, someone that, like I said, has been very good at picking up thing so far. They didn't get it. I asked someone else in passing, they commented that was like saying that Graendal was obvious to the casual observer.

There's so much stuff, as you pointed it out, that you're picking it up. Some stuff will be noticeable to some, others will see different things, but pick up other stuff. If I were to reread it for the first time today, rather than myself 20 years ago, it's possible I'd pick it up, it's possible that I wouldn't.

Terez
02-09-2015, 10:31 PM
I mentioned at least one other person that was doing a reread, someone that, like I said, has been very good at picking up thing so far. They didn't get it. I asked someone else in passing, they commented that was like saying that Graendal was obvious to the casual observer.
Clearly not a neutral party. The two scenarios aren't even slightly comparable.

Fun fact: when RJ wrote TFOH, he had someone else in mind as Asmodean's killer.

Okay, I lied; that's a pretty big thing from the notes, but I'm not telling you who it was until long after the release of the Encyclopedia.

Terez
02-09-2015, 10:34 PM
For those who don't interact with me on social media, here's Harriet talking about all this at JordanCon 2012:

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=819#6

ShadowbaneX
02-09-2015, 10:37 PM
Also, let's please keep the sniping and personal attacks to a minimum--that goes for everyone. I mean, come on...we have an actual active WoT-related thread!

Perhaps I've just been away from WoT related threads for a while (*insert Terez snark here*) but since when do active WoT-related threads not have sniping & personal attacks?

I mean, I think I might have a vague memory of one, but it was from a time so long ago that it's practically another Age.

ShadowbaneX
02-09-2015, 10:38 PM
actually, yeah it was. Neutral that is. I do find it interesting that you need to state it's a not a neutral party as if it's Terez vs. everyone.

Terez
02-09-2015, 10:46 PM
actually, yeah it was. Neutral that is. I do find it interesting that you need to state it's a not a neutral party as if it's Terez vs. everyone.
Still doubt it, since few people outside fan sites know anything about Asmodean and "intuitively obvious"...and also because the comparison is extremely ridiculous. As for my cynicism, it's the product of years of seeing people make absurdly illogical arguments for no apparent reason beyond personal animus.

Marie Curie 7
02-09-2015, 10:52 PM
Perhaps I've just been away from WoT related threads for a while (*insert Terez snark here*) but since when do active WoT-related threads not have sniping & personal attacks?

I mean, I think I might have a vague memory of one, but it was from a time so long ago that it's practically another Age.

Perhaps you haven't been paying attention since the new mods were introduced about 2 1/2 years ago, but that was the whole point of us taking over moderation of the WoT (and other book) forums.

In case you don't recall, we have forum rules now (http://theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=7508)! I refer you to Rules #9 and #11 with regard to this discussion.

ShadowbaneX
02-09-2015, 11:01 PM
Doubt all you like Terez. Unless you view this entire thing as you vs. all of Theoryland there are some neutral parties out there.

As for absurdly illogical arguments, yo, right here. Personal animus? You can choose to view it that way if you like.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of insulting other posters, for whatever reason, but have you perhaps considered a warped sense of humour? I love looney theories and absurd arguments can be fun. They aren't all personal attacks against you, they're just looney ideas.

My CS Looney theory, from like back in 2000-2001. The idea that the DO can win and in remaking the pattern, becomes the Creator, and his forces becomes the Forces of Light and vice-versa. Ishamael becomes the Dragon, and Rand becomes the Betrayer of Hope.

It's an absurd idea, I knew that the moment it occurred to me, but dammit if it isn't a fun idea...if you take an affront to that theory, or somehow think it's made for no other "reason beyond personal animus" keep in mind that one came up years before you got to Theoryland.

And you wanna know what's more, I've changed a bit since then, but my sense of humour hasn't, and scary as it is to imagine there are others out there like me, that look looney crazy theories. This isn't "personal animus" this is because we (I?) have fun doing this, and you don't factor into it.

ShadowbaneX
02-09-2015, 11:04 PM
I'm aware of the rules Marie. I happen to find snark funny. If you think I need to be moderate over this, feel free.

That said, I'll also refer you to Rule #9, "please refrain from making personal attacks," insofar that if I am to be moderated on this, I'll will insist that other infractions, such as personal attacks against me, in this thread and others, will also be moderated.

fionwe1987
02-09-2015, 11:08 PM
Moving on...

Who do you guys think would make a good Ishamael? I'm more and more inclined to think Lee Pace* would nail it.

* He was Thrandruil in the Hobbit, Ronan in Guardians of the Galaxy, and he was excellent as Fernando Wood in Lincoln. I think he would nail the somewhat deranged, yet cool and logical speaking style we need for Ishy.

ShadowbaneX
02-09-2015, 11:16 PM
Moving on sounds like a fine idea, but in moving forward you're sorta moving backwards.

I can remember still being in the tech classes for my high school going over who could be who in the WoT movie/mini-series and the answers seem to change with which year the question is asked.

To borrow an old phrase of mine "been there, done that, gotten the t-shirt & the coffee mug...twice."

Personally, for Ishamael, I'd go with Eric Idle, but he'd have to call LTT & Rand "Bruce".

ShadowbaneX
02-09-2015, 11:20 PM
I am intrigued by your ideas and wish to subscribe to your news letter...well, the 2nd idea. That first one I'm not allowed to consider since, well, this (http://www.theoryland.com/factions.php?func=4&rec=38). That said, the last idea will get me to subscribe twice.

Marie Curie 7
02-10-2015, 12:12 AM
I'm aware of the rules Marie. I happen to find snark funny. If you think I need to be moderate over this, feel free.

That said, I'll also refer you to Rule #9, "please refrain from making personal attacks," insofar that if I am to be moderated on this, I'll will insist that other infractions, such as personal attacks against me, in this thread and others, will also be moderated.

It should be quite apparent that I didn't single anyone in particular out for this, including you. The call to quit with the personal attacks was a general one.

And insist all you want, but it will be the decision of the moderators as to whose posts, if any, may be subject to moderation.

Terez
02-10-2015, 01:17 AM
I'm not particularly interested in casting discussions. Costuming, on the other hand...what the hell was up with Lews Therin's coat? It looked too small for him, and from the back it looked like a modern business suit. And they used a pin instead of an embroidered patch for his Aes Sedai symbol; that made me sad.

And what about the linoleum tile starting at 9:05 or so? That's just awful. :(

fionwe1987
02-10-2015, 01:35 AM
Costuming, on the other hand...what the hell was up with Lews Therin's coat? (

I remember a time when RJ was alive when they released art for each of the Foresaken. Anyone have a link to that? Costuming should come from that, since I remember RJ approved those drawings.

Rand al'Fain
02-10-2015, 01:38 AM
I'm not particularly interested in casting discussions. Costuming, on the other hand...what the hell was up with Lews Therin's coat? It looked too small for him, and from the back it looked like a modern business suit. And they used a pin instead of an embroidered patch for his Aes Sedai symbol; that made me sad.

And what about the linoleum tile starting at 9:05 or so? That's just awful. :(

Like I said, the costume and set where more like Victorian England than ANYTHING I had imagined LTT to be wearing. That was the first of many painful things I noticed.

I was expecting something closer to a castle type layout with LTT in more, well, regal attire (being the most powerful man in the world in many regards at the time).

Terez
02-10-2015, 03:41 AM
I was imagining his coat as sort of an sleeved cloak style thing, knee-length, simple non-formfitting cut with slightly flared sleeves, fastened all the way down the front with lace-over buttons so that the seams hang adjacent.

One thing I didn't like about this is that they tried to put it in Lews Therin's POV. This is one of the very, very few Omni POV scenes in the entire series. You don't have to go through all this delusion stuff to communicate that Lews Therin is out of his mind. The actor does that. The scenery vs his words. The close-up on Ilyena as he steps over her body. Exactly the conversation he had with Ishamael—not a word more is needed to convey what is going on there.

Daekyras
02-10-2015, 03:59 AM
They don't need to go through all the books in detail. No screen adaptation can be faithful to every little sub-plot. And that's as it should be.

Frankly, I think a TV show can make for a stronger WoT story than the books as they exist. Many of the minor plot elements from the earlier books never paid off due to RJ's death. Excising them will only serve to put the strong central plot more in focus, which is great, because the story of Rand, Egwene, Mat, Perrin, Nynaeve and Elayne is pretty good, on the whole.

Around book 6/7 is where we had a great unspooling. Everyone separated, and we spent a lot of time watching their individual growth while they went through often times tedious plot motions before the LB. Snip those and focus on Rand's descent to madness, Egwene's growth to leadership, Mat's courting of Tuon, Elayne and Nynaeve working on the Andoran throne... and Perrin probably needs a whole new storyline, but that's it.

Entire sub-plots like the Shaido can and should be deleted to pave for a leaner story, which is the only way this can work for TV anyway. No reason the central themes and character development of the core can't make a great story.

This. After all, this is what the GoT series has done and they have created a much "better" universe than the books have done.

I would keep the shaido as adversaries but the whole kidnappinf faile/Sevanna idiocy can be left out.

Daekyras
02-10-2015, 04:03 AM
Moving on...

Who do you guys think would make a good Ishamael? I'm more and more inclined to think Lee Pace* would nail it.

* He was Thrandruil in the Hobbit, Ronan in Guardians of the Galaxy, and he was excellent as Fernando Wood in Lincoln. I think he would nail the somewhat deranged, yet cool and logical speaking style we need for Ishy.

I think he would be an excellent Moridin.

However, as Ishamel- Gary Oldman. ALL THE WAY.

Terez
02-10-2015, 04:09 AM
This. After all, this is what the GoT series has done and they have created a much "better" universe than the books have done.

I would keep the shaido as adversaries but the whole kidnappinf faile/Sevanna idiocy can be left out.
I disagree with that. The Faile kidnapping was not so much a bad plotline as it was unnecessarily drawn out in reader years.

I agree that plotlines that didn't go anywhere can be shortened or cut altogether (depending on the specific plotline), and that's part of why 7-8 seasons would work. The other part is that books 7-10 are much shorter than 4-6.

RJ first started to suffer health-wise on the LOC tour, which followed a break-neck deadline. That was the end of RJ's original 6-book contract, and after that he had more freedom because he was successful. 7-11 could have been done in 3 books, not because they were bad books full of useless stuff, but because each book was much shorter than RJ envisioned when he set out to write it. That was always the case, but it was extremely so for 7-10, and when Tor is on your back to publish something, then trimming the prose is not the highest priority (as it would have been for books 4-6).

GonzoTheGreat
02-10-2015, 04:18 AM
To give this "not very impressive adaptation" some credit, I must say that until now I hadn't realised where Lews Therin got his nickname. Most of the Forsaken were given their "names" by their enemies, and then adopted those names in spite. Lews Therin, of course, got the "Telamon" bit as a mark of excellence, but the nickname "Kinslayer" was derogatory. Until now, I hadn't realised that he had gotten that from his enemy, Ishamael. In hindsight, it seems as if the entire demonisation of LTT was a PR campaign by the Shadow.

Terez
02-10-2015, 04:30 AM
To give this "not very impressive adaptation" some credit, I must say that until now I hadn't realised where Lews Therin got his nickname. Most of the Forsaken were given their "names" by their enemies, and then adopted those names in spite. Lews Therin, of course, got the "Telamon" bit as a mark of excellence, but the nickname "Kinslayer" was derogatory. Until now, I hadn't realised that he had gotten that from his enemy, Ishamael. In hindsight, it seems as if the entire demonisation of LTT was a PR campaign by the Shadow.
I can't figure out if you're being sarcastic or passive-aggressive. I'm betting on the latter, but either way it's hilarious.

GonzoTheGreat
02-10-2015, 04:38 AM
I had thought until now that he had been given the "Kinslayer" appellation by the ordinary public (or whatever passed for that, at the time) during the Breaking, when it became known how the Breaking had started and what LTT had done.
I had actually failed to pick up on the fact that Ishamael called him Kinslayer before anyone else even knew about the affair.

Edited to add:Never before had the One Power been used in such a manner. The taint had trapped the minds of all the surviving Companions in twisted dreams of madness, while saidin gave them the power to make those dreams instant reality. There is no way to know of individual acts of destruction by most of the Companions, save that they were of a scale previously unknown. Lews Therin’s deeds, however, were recorded, and have survived the Breaking to live on in legend, for he is known not only to have wreaked great devastation upon the land, but to have killed every living person who carried any of his blood, as well as everyone he loved. It is for this reason that he has been known ever after as the “Kinslayer.” It is probable that the other Companions acted in a similar fashion in the throes of their madness, but it was Lews Therin who stood alone, the best of them, as their leader, and it is Lews Therin alone whose name has been recorded in infamy. Even now those who endanger or threaten the people around them or who are close to them are said to be “taken by the Dragon” or “possessed of the Dragon.”That is a good example of where I thought the term came from, and it totally fails to mention that it was Ishamael who first used applied it to Lews Therin.

123seem
02-10-2015, 07:48 AM
I saw the video. It made me sad, not because of the fact that the scene itself was supposed to, but because it really was horrible. Almost nothing in it said "wheel of time" to me. I suppose i had envisioned something greater when i read the story so many years ago.:(

Davian93
02-10-2015, 08:10 AM
I picked up on this one immediately. And I'm pretty sure you're the one looking at it through hindsight. It's been so long since you've read the books that you think that because the characters didn't know who Ba'alzamon was until the end of book 3, that we didn't either. I still pick up new things every time I reread, but not things that were clearly spelled out in the text like this.

Out of curiosity, how old were you when you first read it?

I only ask because I honestly didn't pick up on it either the first time around...but I was like 11 or 12 so my reading level wasn't that advanced. It was and is pretty obvious if you are reading as an adult but for a kid, I missed/skimmed over it to be honest.

Davian93
02-10-2015, 08:12 AM
I have a piece of paper on a wall that I paid $17,000 to get

Dude, you need to stop shopping at Staples for your office supplies...

Davian93
02-10-2015, 08:17 AM
I think he would be an excellent Moridin.

However, as Ishamel- Gary Oldman. ALL THE WAY.

I'd personally go with Daniel Day Lewis but he would likely end up learning how to Channel, find the Bore and then swear allegiance to the Dark One all as part of his 'craft' prior to making the film.

So perhaps Oldman would be a good option.

Also, Gary Oldman is awesome.

Daekyras
02-10-2015, 11:15 AM
I'd personally go with Daniel Day Lewis but he would likely end up learning how to Channel, find the Bore and then swear allegiance to the Dark One all as part of his 'craft' prior to making the film.

So perhaps Oldman would be a good option.

Also, Gary Oldman is awesome.

Not that you need it but....habe dome rep. Thay first paragraph is so good.

ShadowbaneX
02-10-2015, 02:41 PM
that's a good point Daek.

Similarly, Christian Bale might also be a bad choice.

ShadowbaneX
02-10-2015, 02:48 PM
bit of the forest for the trees there T. The costuming choices were made probably because it was a) cheap & b) available.

Criticizing production elements of this is like criticizing historical accuracy of Pride, Prejudice & Zombies.

Terez
02-10-2015, 03:21 PM
I will criticize anything about it that sucked, even if that means criticizing everything.

Sarevok
02-10-2015, 03:28 PM
I don't believe I picked up on the Ishy/ba'alzamon thing either. If by "spelled out" you mean his looks and demeanor are the same, I just don't pick up on stuff like that, even on rereads. My mind just discards them as fluff. (same IRL, often I couldn't tell you what people I talked to 5 minutes ago were wearing)

Terez
02-10-2015, 03:31 PM
I don't believe I picked up on the Ishy/ba'alzamon thing either. If by "spelled out" you mean his looks and demeanor are the same, I just don't pick up on stuff like that, even on rereads. My mind just discards them as fluff. (same IRL, often I couldn't tell you what people I talked to 5 minutes ago were wearing)
By "spelled out", I mean him telling Rand all about what happened in the prologue the first time they met. You know, the quote I gave a few pages back? It doesn't get any more obvious than that.

Sarevok
02-10-2015, 03:33 PM
By "spelled out", I mean him telling Rand all about what happened in the prologue the first time they met. You know, the quote I gave a few pages back? It doesn't get any more obvious than that.

Oh right... must have read too fast.
Now that you mention it, I can actually recall the scene, I think. :)

Edit: thinking some more on it, it's pretty likely that I'd forgotten the name of the guy in the prologue was Ishamael, Betrayer of Hope, by the time I got to tDR and that's why I remember surprise when we learned his name...

ShadowbaneX
02-10-2015, 03:37 PM
It's a legal move masquerading as a tv pilot. Criticizing it gives it validation.

Terez
02-10-2015, 03:44 PM
Oh right... must have read too fast.
Now that you mention it, I can actually recall the scene, I think. :)

Edit: thinking some more on it, it's pretty likely that I'd forgotten the name of the guy in the prologue was Ishamael, Betrayer of Hope, by the time I got to tDR and that's why I remember surprise when we learned his name...
The name is kind of beside the point; the point is that it's obvious that Ba'alzamon was the dude in the prologue. I think most of us probably realized that when reading whether or not we remember doing so.

fionwe1987
02-10-2015, 08:07 PM
http://www.vox.com/2015/2/10/8014499/wheel-of-time-pilot-fxx

Its beyond slow news day now.

I'm almost grateful to REE now. These article in the mainstream will almost certainly spur interest in WoT again.

Terez
02-10-2015, 08:40 PM
Yes, today was certainly not a slow news day. Vox picked up on it because it was a big story.

This seems like more of a boon to Red Eagle than anything else, and it's not much of a boon to them, since it's likely that they'll be tied up in court for a while over the terms of the contract.

fionwe1987
02-10-2015, 08:45 PM
Yes, today was certainly not a slow news day. Vox picked up on it because it was a big story.

This seems like more of a boon to Red Eagle than anything else, and it's not much of a boon to them, since it's likely that they'll be tied up in court for a while over the terms of the contract.
Oh I don't mean for the adaptation. I meant for the books. Someone out there has to be wondering what all the fuss is about.

ShadowbaneX
02-10-2015, 08:45 PM
if it's tied up in court, it can't be sold to someone else.

fionwe1987
02-10-2015, 08:51 PM
if it's tied up in court, it can't be sold to someone else.

That depends. Say Amazon approaches REE and offers to take the whole thing off their hands for a hefty sum. If Harriet is okay with that, and Amazon consults her on it, the whole case would vanish.

That is a best case scenario, though.

With Netflix doing Zelda, Amazon will want to get in on the action for sure. But I happen to know they have a petition to do a live action Legend of Korra show with quite a few signatures on it, so they might go that route. Or they might just use their excellent data on how many copies of WoT they sold, and make the decision to go with it. Plus, WoT is a much closer match to GoT than almost anything else out there.

ShadowbaneX
02-10-2015, 09:26 PM
I don't really see that. In that case where does Team Jordan/Harriet get their money? If the rights had reverted it would be Amazon giving their heafty sum to them instead of Red Eagle, so I don't see Harriet approving.

fionwe1987
02-10-2015, 09:30 PM
I don't really see that. In that case where does Team Jordan/Harriet get their money? If the rights had reverted it would be Amazon giving their heafty sum to them instead of Red Eagle, so I don't see Harriet approving.
Not really. I don't think Harriet would have much issue if REE sold rights to someone competent and pocketed cash for it. She'll still make money once they production hits screens. REE is only a rights holding company. Their contract almost certainly included details on revenue sharing with Bandersnatch.

ShadowbaneX
02-10-2015, 10:48 PM
I think they'd rather sell the rights to Amazon for the hefty chunk of change, rather than let Red Eagle get most of it. This whole thing also reeks of spite.

Terez
02-10-2015, 11:05 PM
Update on the io9 article:

Update: Selvage followed up to clarify that Ishmael, of course, would be a recurring character, but wouldn't be in every episode. He didn't mean to say that Ishmael wouldn't reappear after the pilot.

ShadowbaneX
02-10-2015, 11:16 PM
I think they're getting ahead of themselves thinking that they're going to be future episodes.

Tedman
02-10-2015, 11:36 PM
Well I don't know what all of you are talking about, personally I enjoyed the preview for Zoolander 2: Billy Zane gets Evil.

Marie Curie 7
02-10-2015, 11:42 PM
I was imagining his coat as sort of an sleeved cloak style thing, knee-length, simple non-formfitting cut with slightly flared sleeves, fastened all the way down the front with lace-over buttons so that the seams hang adjacent.

One thing I didn't like about this is that they tried to put it in Lews Therin's POV. This is one of the very, very few Omni POV scenes in the entire series. You don't have to go through all this delusion stuff to communicate that Lews Therin is out of his mind. The actor does that. The scenery vs his words. The close-up on Ilyena as he steps over her body. Exactly the conversation he had with Ishamael—not a word more is needed to convey what is going on there.

Yeah, the costumes seemed odd, out of sorts with what I might think of as the Age of Legends. I will be interested to hear Linda's take on it. :)

Rand al'Fain
02-11-2015, 01:32 AM
That depends. Say Amazon approaches REE and offers to take the whole thing off their hands for a hefty sum. If Harriet is okay with that, and Amazon consults her on it, the whole case would vanish.

That is a best case scenario, though.

With Netflix doing Zelda, Amazon will want to get in on the action for sure. But I happen to know they have a petition to do a live action Legend of Korra show with quite a few signatures on it, so they might go that route. Or they might just use their excellent data on how many copies of WoT they sold, and make the decision to go with it. Plus, WoT is a much closer match to GoT than almost anything else out there.

What? Oh crap. I'm having flashbacks of M. Knight Shyamalan's Last Airbender. Somethings, especially when already in a visual form like TV, do NOT need a live action movie. That and Dragonball Evolution are key examples of that. Also key examples of Hollywood directors not really caring about what made the series so popular in the first place, thus leading to incredibly bad movies, and even worse adaptations.

Book adaptations? Sure (so long as they don't end up like Eragon). Movie adaptations of TV shows? Yeah, those tend to flop harder than most of the Forsaken.

fionwe1987
02-11-2015, 01:59 AM
What? Oh crap. I'm having flashbacks of M. Knight Shyamalan's Last Airbender. Somethings, especially when already in a visual form like TV, do NOT need a live action movie. That and Dragonball Evolution are key examples of that. Also key examples of Hollywood directors not really caring about what made the series so popular in the first place, thus leading to incredibly bad movies, and even worse adaptations.

Book adaptations? Sure (so long as they don't end up like Eragon). Movie adaptations of TV shows? Yeah, those tend to flop harder than most of the Forsaken.
Not, its not a movie adaptation. A live action TV show. Or a continuation of the animated show. Not that there's any guarantee either will happen.

Rand al'Fain
02-11-2015, 10:23 AM
Not, its not a movie adaptation. A live action TV show. Or a continuation of the animated show. Not that there's any guarantee either will happen.

Ah. Though the creators said they were done with TV for the forseeable future and will instead work on the comics section now. Can't really blame them with all the crap Nickelodeon put them through (and I think Nick still owns the rights to the Avatar series).