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View Full Version : Why a Wheel of Time TV Series is a Horrible, Horrible Idea


Seeker
02-15-2015, 06:35 PM
I figure you guys will find this interesting.

http://bit.ly/1zhdXIW

Daekyras
02-15-2015, 07:00 PM
Teeheehee, some fans are quite rabid.

As for the rest of her logic/thought process. I can sum it up in one word.

Weak.
.

GonzoTheGreat
02-16-2015, 03:27 AM
So, keeping in mind that actors age, how would we go about structuring a Wheel of Time series? A season for each book would result in fourteen years of television, and a young actor who took on his or her role at the age of eighteen would be thirty-two by the time the series was finished.Simple solution: use real seasons. There are four of them in each year, so if you need 14 seasons, then three and a half years would be sufficient. Start out with 16 year old actors, and they won't be 20 yet by the time the series ends.

Things are a lot simpler when one is realistic about them.

halo6819
02-16-2015, 05:43 AM
Also, why are we limited to these old ideas of shows needing a traditional season run. If it is done by one of the big online services (Netflix, Amazon) they could do a LOTR and have production run for five or six years straight and work on the post as they go and release when they finish. Since the story is done they could conceivably get all the live action shot in a few years and then release a season every six months for seven years.

It would be a HUGE gamble, but it is possible.

Hugh the Hand
02-16-2015, 08:45 AM
Very weak article, or take on this. All of those problems can be overcome, and who cares how rabid the fans are, you know you will never satisfy them, so why try? Just do a good show based on the books.

I still think a well done cartoon would be the cheapest and best route for this series.

As for a live action show, I like the idea of doing it following the seasons, or the idea of gambling and filming it all at once and releasing it slowly. That would help with character ages, costs, and will ensure we get at least enough to wet our whistles!

The scope is way too huge for live action, so it would need to be pared down. Maybe skip ahead a lot at points, and tell some of the interim with backflashes. And if the show does well, entire episodes or seasons can be a back flash, ie Rand remembering how he got the Aiel... etc

ShadowbaneX
02-16-2015, 12:08 PM
weak indeed (http://i.imgur.com/4EFSWpS.jpg).

mogi67
02-16-2015, 01:00 PM
They could always just make the series through The Dragon Reborn initially, then show a sick montage as an epilogue

ShadowbaneX
02-16-2015, 02:35 PM
Never underestimate the power of a good montage.

Hugh the Hand
02-16-2015, 03:12 PM
Set to "You Got the Touch!"

Seriously, listen to it! it fits!

Daekyras
02-16-2015, 04:19 PM
Set to "You Got the Touch!"

Seriously, listen to it! it fits!

Is that the transformers song?

And all montages should be set to "best around" from karate kid.

Daekyras
02-16-2015, 04:21 PM
weak indeed (http://i.imgur.com/4EFSWpS.jpg).

Sorry for double post but that first picture looks more like james franco in that oz film.

Davian93
02-16-2015, 06:44 PM
Is that the transformers song?

And all montages should be set to "best around" from karate kid.

Ahem...this is a serious disservice to the epic montage that took place in Rocky 4:

https://vimeo.com/17776310

Possibly the greatest movie montage in history...particularly the part where he climbs that 40,000 ft peak in Siberia.

ShadowbaneX
02-16-2015, 10:28 PM
Nah, Hugh's right. The following line after "You've got the touch!" is "You've got the Power!"

Zombie Sammael
02-17-2015, 07:10 AM
Nah, Hugh's right. The following line after "You've got the touch!" is "You've got the Power!"

I'm not sure "it's in the mighty hands of steel" really describes any of the characters from WOT though.

ShadowbaneX
02-17-2015, 09:27 AM
meh, they can just edit that part out. Or they can do an updated version of the song and make it "hands like steel" or something.

Hugh the Hand
02-17-2015, 09:41 AM
Well the song actually predates transformers, but yes that is where i recall it.

Listen to the whole thing, it really does fit.

but back to the topic on hand.

Red eagle is pretty smart, this suit is all part of negotiations.

Nothing like a good offense to be prepared for the suit from Harriet

Rand al'Fain
02-17-2015, 06:25 PM
How about Hell's Bells by AC/DC for Ishamael?
http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/acdc/hellsbells.html

Davian93
02-17-2015, 07:31 PM
Nah, Rocky IV was and will forever be the greatest training montage in movie history. Karate Kid is epic in its own right but Rocky IV is just so ridiculously over the top even 30 years later that it literally makes the entire movie for me.

Morelikeunwisewoman
02-18-2015, 09:09 AM
I would love a tv show of wheel of time. I cant imagine too many people being upset if some sub plots are removed. Even sub characters. Would the books/show suffer if the following werent there:

Gawyn,
Sevanna,
any wise woman not called amys.
any aes sedai not called moraine or verin,
The entire sea folk,
And lots of other extra characters. And even complete sub plots could be removed- I know it wont be popular but the splitting of the tower, ebou dar, bandar eban etc can all be cut if need be...

im not a fan of G Martins books but is there much of an out cry over them moving from the story for the tv show?

Tomp
02-18-2015, 09:28 AM
I think Crawlin' King Snake by Etta James (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSeymGlkX0s)is a great song for a bad guy montage.
It would probably fit Moridin or Rahvin pretty good.

fdsaf3
02-18-2015, 04:31 PM
I like the idea of turning the first 3 books into a miniseries. I'm less keen on expanding the miniseries into a longer show based on the later books.

Frankly, the bloat mentioned in the article is a huge obstacle to overcome with a possible TV show. If you wanted to suggest trimming extraneous plots to streamline the running time, you run into the dual problems of A) alienating fans of the books who, as the article mentioned, will be shrill in their complaints of inaccuracy, and B) it becomes tricky to excise story threads without unraveling more than you want. I don't think these issues are totally insurmountable. The logistical challenges are such that I think it would take some pretty heavy planning and creative thinking to turn a sprawling 14-book epic into a manageable TV show.

Davian93
02-18-2015, 08:39 PM
I would love a tv show of wheel of time. I cant imagine too many people being upset if some sub plots are removed. Even sub characters. Would the books/show suffer if the following werent there:

Gawyn,
Sevanna,
any wise woman not called amys.
any aes sedai not called moraine or verin,
The entire sea folk,
And lots of other extra characters. And even complete sub plots could be removed- I know it wont be popular but the splitting of the tower, ebou dar, bandar eban etc can all be cut if need be...

im not a fan of G Martins books but is there much of an out cry over them moving from the story for the tv show?

Hell, many of the fans tend to think the TV show is doing a better job in a lot of ways than GRRM has done. That will only increase once they dive into Feast and Dance I would think...given that NOTHING FUCKING HAPPENS IN EITHER BOOK.

Davian93
02-18-2015, 08:42 PM
I like the idea of turning the first 3 books into a miniseries. I'm less keen on expanding the miniseries into a longer show based on the later books.

Frankly, the bloat mentioned in the article is a huge obstacle to overcome with a possible TV show. If you wanted to suggest trimming extraneous plots to streamline the running time, you run into the dual problems of A) alienating fans of the books who, as the article mentioned, will be shrill in their complaints of inaccuracy, and B) it becomes tricky to excise story threads without unraveling more than you want. I don't think these issues are totally insurmountable. The logistical challenges are such that I think it would take some pretty heavy planning and creative thinking to turn a sprawling 14-book epic into a manageable TV show.

You could honestly probably edit the entire story down to 6 longish books if you really wanted to...and that would be eminently doable even accounting for the aging issues if you did it over 6 seasons of 10-12 episodes.

Would you be cutting a bunch out? Sure. Would it be critical to the story? No, no it would not.

Hell, half of one of the later books was devoted to the BA hunt...which turned out to be utterly meaningless. Even Rand's utter darkness could be significantly condensed. Elayne's entire half book for the Andorran Civil War (Now with more dresses and baths!!!) could easily be cut. All of the Perrin/Faile crap could be cut down to like small parts of 2 episodes rather than spanning 3 books.

Etc etc. A good editor and screenwriter could make it happen and the fans would get over it if the production values were as good as GoT is for HBO.

Daekyras
02-19-2015, 05:24 AM
You could honestly probably edit the entire story down to 6 longish books if you really wanted to...and that would be eminently doable even accounting for the aging issues if you did it over 6 seasons of 10-12 episodes.

Would you be cutting a bunch out? Sure. Would it be critical to the story? No, no it would not.

Hell, half of one of the later books was devoted to the BA hunt...which turned out to be utterly meaningless. Even Rand's utter darkness could be significantly condensed. Elayne's entire half book for the Andorran Civil War (Now with more dresses and baths!!!) could easily be cut. All of the Perrin/Faile crap could be cut down to like small parts of 2 episodes rather than spanning 3 books.

Etc etc. A good editor and screenwriter could make it happen and the fans would get over it if the production values were as good as GoT is for HBO.

I couldnt agree more. I think thats what unwise was saying earlier. There are entire plots that take up huge amounts of book space that are completely unnecessary for the macro-plot.

I enjoyed the asoif books but each one less and less in comparison to the previous. This is due to "bloat". The tv series seems to be managing to avoid that so far. Although dany story has early warning signs.

if they did a WoT series I would hope they would do the same. And obviously contain way less gratuitous sex.

If they cut out large segments of the book (black ajah hunt as an example) would fans really rage? Or would most accept it as a sensible decision?

ShadowbaneX
02-19-2015, 06:23 AM
if they did a WoT series I would hope they would do the same. And obviously contain way less gratuitous sex.

and the entire project just failed with the 2nd sentence. We're geeks, we're in it for the story. The general public? They want lots of sex. Give that to them off the start, then you might get them watching, and once their hooked, then you can tone it down.

fdsaf3
02-19-2015, 09:07 AM
You could honestly probably edit the entire story down to 6 longish books if you really wanted to...and that would be eminently doable even accounting for the aging issues if you did it over 6 seasons of 10-12 episodes.



I agree with this entirely.

On a side note - it's interesting to me that voicing this exact same opinion about series bloat on this forum a few years ago was met with some pretty vocal negative response. I was personally met with some incredibly hostile responses to voicing some of these same issues by people who may or may not still post here. People were loathe to criticize RJ and/or his work. Now, a few short years later, are attitudes shifting?

It's an interesting change, that's for sure.

Etc etc. A good editor and screenwriter could make it happen and the fans would get over it if the production values were as good as GoT is for HBO.

This is where I'm not sold. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I do think the vocal minority of fans would not take to cutting out or altering the story even if production values were high. I'd be interested in reading a semi-detailed synopsis of how to turn the books into a TV series of anywhere between 5-7 seasons.

Also, I think Hugh was on to something with this suggestion:

I still think a well done cartoon would be the cheapest and best route for this series.

Very interesting idea. That would overcome the aging problem, production costs, and the visual aspect of weaving the One Power which I can see being a daunting technical challenge to do convincingly in a traditional format.

Terez
02-19-2015, 09:34 AM
I still think 7-8 seasons is more realistic. I don't think much would have to be cut, really; prose and screen are different beasts. You could keep pretty much everything and still do it in 7-8 seasons. (And I'm pretty sure I have been saying this for years; perhaps I'm wrong, though.)

ShadowbaneX
02-19-2015, 09:54 AM
We've all been saying lots of things for lots of years. Some things just keep getting repeated ad nauseum. Won't be the first, won't be the last.

Terez
02-19-2015, 09:56 AM
Just saying, no shifting attitudes, as someone above suggested.

ShadowbaneX
02-19-2015, 10:02 AM
Just saying, no shifting attitudes, as someone above suggested.
Well like the books it could be a little over done. Better to keep it lean and leave people wanting more than to over do it and have people grow sick of it.

It could be done en masse in 7 or 8 seasons but I think with some judicial trimming getting it down to 4 or 5 seasons could be an improvement.

fdsaf3
02-19-2015, 10:40 AM
Just saying, no shifting attitudes, as someone above suggested.

You can't reference me? It was, like, three posts above yours.

And I don't agree with you, obviously. I personally have experience which contradicts your generalization. Unless you're suggesting that my experience is somehow not universally shared. You seem comfortable speaking on behalf of the entire community here, which makes sense since you're one of the most active members. None of this is a criticism, by the way. I know you can get a bit prickly about things, and I'm certainly not trying to rile you up.

Terez
02-19-2015, 10:54 AM
I never claimed to speak for anyone but myself.

Davian93
02-19-2015, 11:02 AM
On a side note - it's interesting to me that voicing this exact same opinion about series bloat on this forum a few years ago was met with some pretty vocal negative response. I was personally met with some incredibly hostile responses to voicing some of these same issues by people who may or may not still post here. People were loathe to criticize RJ and/or his work. Now, a few short years later, are attitudes shifting?


I honestly dont mind the bloat when I'm reading but then any WoT detail is awesome to me. In an adaptation, I'd be totally okay with them gutting it if its done right.

fdsaf3
02-19-2015, 12:13 PM
If you say so. I've reread your post a few times, and for me it straddles the line between generalizing for the community here and not. You're obviously intelligent enough to Either way, I'm not going to quibble with you about this. I've stated my perspective, and I'm certainly not going to argue with anyone about this.

Daekyras
02-19-2015, 12:53 PM
Very interesting idea. That would overcome the aging problem, production costs, and the visual aspect of weaving the One Power which I can see being a daunting technical challenge to do convincingly in a traditional format.

I dont see an aging problem.

1. GoT flat out changed the ages of the stark kids because it would have been gross not too. It made sense and I dont remember any outcry over it.

2. Most film and tv actors play characters 10 years younger than they actually are. (Spiderman anyone?? Saved by the bell??) So if they need a 7 year plotline, cast a guy who is 20 to play rand. In 7 years he'll actually still pass as a teen for tv land.

Seeker
02-19-2015, 03:39 PM
I still think 7-8 seasons is more realistic. I don't think much would have to be cut, really; prose and screen are different beasts. You could keep pretty much everything and still do it in 7-8 seasons. (And I'm pretty sure I have been saying this for years; perhaps I'm wrong, though.)

The problem isn't so much cutting material - because a lot of it really could go - so much as it is tone and pacing and deciding where one season ends and the next begins. Also, it's usually a bad idea to plan for more than five seasons. Keep in mind that making it to three is a HUGE accomplishment. Five is the nice round number where most execs decide that a show has run its course.

rand
02-19-2015, 04:11 PM
I still think 7-8 seasons is more realistic. I don't think much would have to be cut, really; prose and screen are different beasts. You could keep pretty much everything and still do it in 7-8 seasons.
Pretty much this. If someone can be convinced to actually make 8 seasons out of it (like GoT) they could easily fit in almost everything. Here's how I'd do it:

Seasons:
1) tEotW. (also, FWIW, I wouldn't start with the prologue. It would probably turn most casual viewers away with the large info dump. They should just start with Rand and Tam walking into town, and eventually have Thom tell the story of the DR--then show the prologue stuff in a flashback type thing).

2) tGH. There's enough here to get its own season, I think.

3) tDR, first half of tSR. Honestly, there's not a whole lot going on in tDR. Rand basically isn't even in it. It would be a real stretch to make it into anything more than 5 episodes (I'm basing this on 10 1-hour-long episodes a season, btw).

4) second half of tSR, tFoH. It might seem like a lot to fit in one season, but a lot of Nynaeve and Elayne's circus trip can be shortened quite a bit. This would also help keep Perrin in every season, instead of cutting him out of tFoH like RJ did.

5) LoC, maybe a little of aCoS. LoC has enough going on to have it's own season, but they could probably include a few parts of aCoS (and maybe even later books) to make room for the next season, which would include...

6) aCoS, tPoD, WH, CoT, KoD. Considering no one does a whole lot in these books, I think they could make this work all as one season. A lot of these books have characters that don't appear at all (Egwene, Mat -- and Rand is all but cut from CoT and KoD). Perrin can lose and rescue Faile all in one season, Mat can escape form Ebou Dar all in one season, Egwene can get to TV all in one season, and Elayne can capture her throne basically in 10 minutes on one episode. Sure, they'd have to cut some stuff to fit 5 books in one season, but it probably wouldn't be as much as some people would think.

7) first half of the Brandon trilogy

8) second half of the Brandon trilogy. I'm not really sure where to split these, but I don't think aMoL has enough going on in it to have its own season. They could also run stuff form tGS and ToM in chronological order this way.


Anyway, that's my two cents. Aging wouldn't be a problem at all, IMO. There's nothing that says Rand absolutely has to be 20 for the series to work. The only character they'd need to be worried about is Olver (and hoping whoever plays Sorilea doesn't die halfway through).

The only thing I'd be concerned about is that whoever makes it would have to absolutely go all-in with this. In terms of casting, acting, pacing, locations, special effects, etc, GoT is pretty close to perfect. Any WoT show would instantly be compared to GoT. Basically, it would have to almost perfect to keep getting renewed for new seasons. If the producers don't put the same amount of effort into it as the GoT guys do, it will never work.

Seeker
02-20-2015, 02:10 AM
All right, I promised myself I wouldn't do this since what I'm about to say will almost certainly convince no one, but what the hell. At least the information is there.

rand, here's the problem with your scenario.

6) aCoS, tPoD, WH, CoT, KoD. Considering no one does a whole lot in these books, I think they could make this work all as one season. A lot of these books have characters that don't appear at all (Egwene, Mat -- and Rand is all but cut from CoT and KoD). Perrin can lose and rescue Faile all in one season, Mat can escape form Ebou Dar all in one season, Egwene can get to TV all in one season, and Elayne can capture her throne basically in 10 minutes on one episode. Sure, they'd have to cut some stuff to fit 5 books in one season, but it probably wouldn't be as much as some people would think.

Okay, so let's look at just Rand's storyline in the time period you've mentioned. During those five books he

Meets Cads
Gets attacked by Fain while visiting the rebels
Kills Sammael
Leads a campaign of Illian soliders against the Seanchan
Fights Rogue Asha'man
Cleanses the taint.
Meets the fake Tuon and loses a hand.

And you're picturing a season of 10 episodes.

So - and there is no sarcasm in my voice when I ask this question, I swear - how would that look.

Episode 2: Rand gets attacked by Fain

Episode 3: Rand kills Sammael

Episode 4 & 5 Rand leads Illian against the Seanchan

Episode 6 Rand evades Asha'man in the sun palace.

Episode 7 Rand leads Asha'man to Far Madding (Do we want to do that whole arc in just one episode?)

Episode 8 or 9: Rand cleanses the taint.

Episode 10 Rand loses a hand.


And I'm cutting the Lord Algarin 100 000 trolloc fight. Rand's storyline is all action. Too much action. The ironic thing is that this season would have the exact opposite problem as the books it uses as source material. This would be action overload.

There need to be slow points to balance the high intensity moments. This is what I mean when I say that any season breakdown that you can imagine creates inevitable pacing issues.

Rand can't just be running around killing forsaken and leading armies. He needs character moments too. And you have to understand that the events I just mentioned would take up every minute of Rand's screen time for each episode. That would be the only way to do them properly. Because in an hour-long episode, Rand is probably going to get 10-15 minutes of screen time. That's a very small window. And that's a lot when you consider that a lot of screen time has to go to Elayne/Mat/Egwene.

Now add all the Ebou Dar stuff, the gholam fight, the girls' narrow escape after using the Bowl of Winds, Mat's escape from the Tarasin Palace.

Put all these things together and this season becomes one non-stop roller coaster of action. That can't work. Action has to punctuate a story that takes its time to set all the narrative threads in just the right place.

Think of all the character building stuff as setting up an elaborate set of dominoes. Action would the moment when you knock the first one down. If a season is all action, then it's basically you setting up a two dominoes and then repeatedly knocking them down. That's not very impressive. You need the long set up to make it matter.

Terez
02-20-2015, 02:22 AM
My rough scenario for how it would work:

Season 1 - The Eye of the World
Goes through the first several chapters of TGH when Siuan and Moiraine tell Rand he's the Dragon Reborn.

Season 2 - The Dragon Reborn
Begins with the Hunt setting out (after the Darkfriend Social) and ends with the Stone.

Season 3 - The Shadow Rising
Most events from TSR and TFOH would be in this season, climaxing with Rahvin.

Season 4 - Lord of Chaos
Most events from LOC, ACOS, and some of TPOD would be in this season. Would require expert juggling, but could be done. Ends with the Bowl being used and building falling on Mat.

Season 5 - Crossroads of Twilight
Most events from the rest of TPOD, WH, and about half of COT in this season. Ends with the Cleansing.

Season 6 - Towers of Midnight
The rest of COT, all of KOD, and ending with Dragonmount and then Ghenjei. Requires some juggling. Multiple hardcore climaxes, across all story lines. Seriously fast-paced season.

Season 7 - A Memory of Light
To the end.

It could be done in 8 seasons with more room to breathe and a different juggling of climaxes. It can be done, with smart screenwriting.

fionwe1987
02-20-2015, 02:58 AM
Look, no compressed retelling will have time for even all the action highlights. And that is just fine. You'll have to think of the TV series as an abridgment, not a highlights reel. Major character and action moments, with a lot of secondary storyline either just implied or cut completely.

A potential example: Rand being attacked by Fain, and Rand being attacked by the Asha'man, can be combined, or one can replace the other. Cadsuane saves his life, he runs away to fight Sammael in Illian. She's shown to immediately follow after a quick alliance with the Wise Ones. Rand defeats Sammael, Cadsuane meets him in Illian, he takes her on as advisor, and he says that when he was at SL, he felt some strange interaction between Mashadar and the OP, so he's going back to Cleanse Saidin based on this idea he had.

Yes, I know this means a lot of Rand's story is cut. They'll also have to find a new was to get Nynaeve into the picture. But those are all acceptable. They're going to have to be if you want this to make it to screen. If you want every event in the story as it is, but just rushed, you'll have a horrible show.

Basically, think of the TV show as another turning of the Wheel. From a distance, a lot of events look the same. The major fights and character moments occur. But those dots will be connected in some very different ways, and this will mean cutting not just some boring story lines but some major climaxes. There's no other way to take so many books, most of which have climactic battles/fights, and compress them into a reasonable number of seasons.

Terez
02-20-2015, 03:17 AM
Look, no compressed retelling will have time for even all the action highlights.
I don't believe this is true. In order to keep the story from becoming a constant reel of action you have to know how to take deep breaths in small moments. Again, smart screenwriting. If you start out with the principle that big sacrifices to the plot will have to be made (like most adaptations do), then that's what you're going to end up with, but that doesn't mean that someone else couldn't do a better job of making it work.

Daekyras
02-20-2015, 03:22 AM
I don't believe this is true. In order to keep the story from becoming a constant reel of action you have to know how to take deep breaths in small moments. Again, smart screenwriting. If you start out with the principle that big sacrifices to the plot will have to be made (like most adaptations do), then that's what you're going to end up with, but that doesn't mean that someone else couldn't do a better job of making it work.

I think fionwe has a point T. A lot of the action would need to be condensed or we would end up with action bloat.

Terez
02-20-2015, 05:19 AM
I think fionwe has a point T. A lot of the action would need to be condensed or we would end up with action bloat.
Again, I disagree; no one has shown any real evidence that this is the case. You just have to know how to pace it. There are long stretches of every WoT book with no real action. It only becomes a problem if you try to condense - what was it? - five books into one season.

Davian93
02-20-2015, 07:04 AM
I don't believe this is true. In order to keep the story from becoming a constant reel of action you have to know how to take deep breaths in small moments. Again, smart screenwriting. If you start out with the principle that big sacrifices to the plot will have to be made (like most adaptations do), then that's what you're going to end up with, but that doesn't mean that someone else couldn't do a better job of making it work.

You have to do that anyway due to hard-realities of budgeting. For every "big action episode" you have, you need 3-4 "Not much happens from an special effects standpoint but the plot still advances" episodes. These are called "bottle episodes" in the industry because they tend to take place on one set or only a couple of small sets. On location filming costs an utter fortune as does CGI so alot of it has to be implied. That's a big part of why we rarely see Dragons and we never see huge battle scenes in GoT despite them having a huge budget for a television show. This is not a huge issue. Some of the very best ST:TNG episodes were bottle episodes that had very low budgets. Sure, you're gonna lose out on some of the battles but whatever.

You guys are on the right path but even more could and would have to be cut. Worrying about casting Sorilea for example...honestly, Her role would probably be combined with Amys in a television adaptation. When you get down to it, she's really a 4th tier fairly minor character. Her important actions are likely given to someone else and we move on.

Terez
02-20-2015, 07:35 AM
I have been saying for years that the only way to get a proper budget for a fantasy series is to do parallel releases in theaters. Game of Thrones is (finally) experimenting with that this season. Theater serials have been popular in the past; they can be popular again.

Daekyras
02-20-2015, 07:35 AM
You have to do that anyway due to hard-realities of budgeting. For every "big action episode" you have, you need 3-4 "Not much happens from an special effects standpoint but the plot still advances" episodes. These are called "bottle episodes" in the industry because they tend to take place on one set or only a couple of small sets. On location filming costs an utter fortune as does CGI so alot of it has to be implied. That's a big part of why we rarely see Dragons and we never see huge battle scenes in GoT despite them having a huge budget for a television show. This is not a huge issue. Some of the very best ST:TNG episodes were bottle episodes that had very low budgets. Sure, you're gonna lose out on some of the battles but whatever.

You guys are on the right path but even more could and would have to be cut. Worrying about casting Sorilea for example...honestly, Her role would probably be combined with Amys in a television adaptation. When you get down to it, she's really a 4th tier fairly minor character. Her important actions are likely given to someone else and we move on.

I was just about to say something similar.

take the capturing of jamie lannister- its completely done off screen in the show. But they only need one line of dialogue "he killed six knights before we took him down" in order to let us know he is a badass and that it musta been epic.

in fact jordan himself did it on at least three really impressuve occasions in the books: loial defending the women and the children in the stone, mat killing couladin and lan "danced the dance" better than toriam riatin. All three completely off screen but I can still picture it in my head. The show can do the same with many other of our big action scenes.

fionwe1987
02-20-2015, 08:01 AM
I don't believe this is true. In order to keep the story from becoming a constant reel of action you have to know how to take deep breaths in small moments. Again, smart screenwriting. If you start out with the principle that big sacrifices to the plot will have to be made (like most adaptations do), then that's what you're going to end up with, but that doesn't mean that someone else couldn't do a better job of making it work.

Apart from the budgeting crunch, even 1.5 to two books a season will have this issue. For one thing, you can't easily have the climactic episode somewhere in the middle. When you put two books in one, you're going to have to work out how to have two climaxes.

Just take season 2 of your idea. You'll basically have to have Egwene and Nynaeve in he Tower for all of one episode, then Egwene gets captured, then she's rescued two episodes later, then she's rescued, then next episode she's hunting the Black Ajah, then departs to Tear, then she's captured again, and enters TAR (which she'll have all of a few minutes in some previous episode to learn about) and then Mat rescues them.

It just doesn't work. Being captured by the Seanchan is a major force of characterization for Egwene. That arc is ruined if it is a one-two episode thing early in the season.

It'll probably work a lot better if they combine the finales of tGH and tDR in some way. One way is to not introduce the Seanchan at this point. Better would be to have Suroth in cahoots with Be'lal, relocate the Stone to the coast of the Aryth Ocean, have Egwene and co.head there hunting the BA, only for Egwene to be captured by the Seanchan, and imprisoned in the Stone. Rands motives to go to the Stone are now the hunt for the Horn AND crazy dreams of Egwene being captive and tortured.

Or you can just cut out Be'lal completely.

This way, both Egwene and Rand have their seminal moments together. Egwenes experiences give her a good reason to feel distance from Rand in the next season, so they break up, etc.

These kind of drastic cuts are bound to happen. There's no "smart" script writing that's going to change that. What can be done is keep the early books as individual seasons, and then start ignoring the climaxes and reworking the story later on, which is when RJ went into story lines that were less contained within single books, and also when we started zooming in on details of politics, etc.

Frankly, I see tSR-tFOH making a better single season than tGH-tDR. In tSR-tFOH, more characters are doing continuos things than in the previous two books. Rand has to gain the Aiel and Asmodean, which makes an appropriate mid season highlight on his way to Cairhein and Andor. Nynaeve and Elayne deal with Moghedien and reach Salidar.

Terez
02-20-2015, 08:38 AM
Just take season 2 of your idea. You'll basically have to have Egwene and Nynaeve in he Tower for all of one episode, then Egwene gets captured, then she's rescued two episodes later, then she's rescued, then next episode she's hunting the Black Ajah, then departs to Tear, then she's captured again, and enters TAR (which she'll have all of a few minutes in some previous episode to learn about) and then Mat rescues them.
Assuming you only get 10 episodes in the season, which is not quite certain. I think 12 would be enough, and more episodes in a season are hardly unheard-of.

Egwene's captivity doesn't have to be stretched over several episodes to be impactful. Some time-jumping at that point happens even in the books, partly because Rand et al. spend 4 months in Portal Stone limbo.

These kind of drastic cuts are bound to happen. There's no "smart" script writing that's going to change that.
Depends on how smart you are.

Seeker
02-20-2015, 10:55 AM
You have to do that anyway due to hard-realities of budgeting. For every "big action episode" you have, you need 3-4 "Not much happens from an special effects standpoint but the plot still advances" episodes. These are called "bottle episodes" in the industry because they tend to take place on one set or only a couple of small sets. On location filming costs an utter fortune as does CGI so alot of it has to be implied. That's a big part of why we rarely see Dragons and we never see huge battle scenes in GoT despite them having a huge budget for a television show. This is not a huge issue. Some of the very best ST:TNG episodes were bottle episodes that had very low budgets. Sure, you're gonna lose out on some of the battles but whatever.

You guys are on the right path but even more could and would have to be cut. Worrying about casting Sorilea for example...honestly, Her role would probably be combined with Amys in a television adaptation. When you get down to it, she's really a 4th tier fairly minor character. Her important actions are likely given to someone else and we move on.

Actually, Dav, that's not what Bottle Episode means. A Bottle Episode is an episode that takes place specifically on only one set, usually in just one room. Big drama shows like this almost never do bottle episodes, and you couldn't do one in a WoT series. It would require you to either put all the characters in the same place or ignore most characters for just one or two.

And the problem with 3-4 episodes of very little special effects for every one big action piece is a season like tGH. Even if you keep the CGI to a minimum, that story will need elaborate sets, costumes and fight choreography. To do what you suggest would require more than ten episodes in a season.

GonzoTheGreat
02-20-2015, 11:37 AM
You'd need a big (world sized) bottle, but then you could do the Last Battle in one.

Davian93
02-20-2015, 12:24 PM
Actually, Dav, that's not what Bottle Episode means. A Bottle Episode is an episode that takes place specifically on only one set, usually in just one room. Big drama shows like this almost never do bottle episodes, and you couldn't do one in a WoT series. It would require you to either put all the characters in the same place or ignore most characters for just one or two.



Um...did you read my whole post...

These are called "bottle episodes" in the industry because they tend to take place on one set or only a couple of small sets.

Terez
02-20-2015, 12:35 PM
A friend on Facebook convinced me that 7 seasons with 13 eps each is numerologically optimal, so I'm writing up a rough episode-by-episode outline based on that format, which is a little easier than 12. 13 eps is about normal for cable and even pay TV shows, e.g. the Sopranos. (As for budget see previous comments.)

Seeker
02-20-2015, 02:19 PM
Um...did you read my whole post...

Yeah, but a Bottle episode is not what you're describing. At least not from the mental image that I have when I picture what you're describing. You're either misusing the term or you're imagining something that would not work on a WOT show.

The Unreasoner
02-20-2015, 03:00 PM
The Battle for Cairhien would make a great bottle episode.

Daekyras
02-20-2015, 03:08 PM
A friend on Facebook convinced me that 7 seasons with 13 eps each is numerologically optimal, so I'm writing up a rough episode-by-episode outline based on that format, which is a little easier than 12. 13 eps is about normal for cable and even pay TV shows, e.g. the Sopranos. (As for budget see previous comments.)

Please do. I would be very interested in reading that.

Terez
02-20-2015, 03:22 PM
Please do. I would be very interested in reading that.
I got the rough outline of seasons 1-2 done this morning. It will probably take me the rest of the weekend to work through the rest because it gets more complicated after that, but I've already gone through the whole series and picked various chapter titles for all the episode titles to give myself an idea of how I want to juggle it.

I might get a little light on scene-by-scene details in the last season because there is some stuff I think should be cut and changed there, but I will at least hit the high points. For example: I think the whole plotline with Elayne taking the Sun Throne should probably be cut, because RJ hadn't actually decided whether he wanted to do that, and it's just taking up space. A lot of space, considering all the political details involved, most of which were invented solely for the purpose of making the plotline work.

Seeker
02-20-2015, 04:24 PM
The Battle for Cairhien would make a great bottle episode.

How...

That's not what a Bottle Episode is. A bottle episode is almost all dialogue. A bottle episode is something like the episode of Friends that takes place entirely in Monica's living room. Or the episode of Community that takes place entirely in the study room.

Part of the specification - and the reason I think Dav is misusing the term - is that a Bottle Episode forces all the main cast into a tight, confined space, usually with some contrivance for why they can't get out of that space.

So in Friends, everyone's getting ready to go to Ross's dinner and they can't leave because no one is dressed.

In Community, Annie won't let anyone leave until she finds her missing pen. A bottle episode is not an action episode.

You can't do a bottle episode with a huge ensemble cast.

The Unreasoner
02-20-2015, 05:39 PM
How...

That's not what a Bottle Episode is. A bottle episode is almost all dialogue. A bottle episode is something like the episode of Friends that takes place entirely in Monica's living room. Or the episode of Community that takes place entirely in the study room.

Part of the specification - and the reason I think Dav is misusing the term - is that a Bottle Episode forces all the main cast into a tight, confined space, usually with some contrivance for why they can't get out of that space.

So in Friends, everyone's getting ready to go to Ross's dinner and they can't leave because no one is dressed.

In Community, Annie won't let anyone leave until she finds her missing pen. A bottle episode is not an action episode.

You can't do a bottle episode with a huge ensemble cast.
I'm just fucking with you. I think the Battle for Cairhien works as one episode. Ignore the other storylines for a week, like Blackwater in GoT, or the battle on the Wall. Probably not one set, but certainly one setting.

What a bottle episode is (or why we need one), I neither know nor care to.

Seeker
02-20-2015, 07:24 PM
I'm just fucking with you. I think the Battle for Cairhien works as one episode. Ignore the other storylines for a week, like Blackwater in GoT, or the battle on the Wall. Probably not one set, but certainly one setting.

What a bottle episode is (or why we need one), I neither know nor care to.

You don't need bottle episodes in a WoT series. A bottle episode is not "a slow dialogue-heave episode that only has one or two sets."

It's an episode where character relationships are fleshed out and developed because the people in question are trapped together for whatever reason. A bottle episode works best with a small tightly-knit cast. It's usually used for some kind of character revelation. Jimmy slept with Sally but now he's dating Jen and Sally says something that spills the beans. It's usually used in sitcoms, not large epic dramas.

There are exceptions.

The best example of a bottle episode used for dramatic effect is Babylon 5's "Intersections in Real Time." In that episode, Captain Sheridan - leader of la resistancé - is captured by the space gestapo and tortured for information. The episode takes place entirely within the confines of Sheridan's cell. It's dark, it's creepy and it raises a lot of questions about human nature. Check it out, and you'll see what a really good bottle episode looks like.

A really good WoT bottle episode might be a contrived situation in which Rand and Egwene are forced to sit in a room together at some point between Dragonmount and Merrilor. It would be a great opportunity for both characters to see the other's perspective. The problem is that you'd have a real hard time creating the contrivance that keeps them stuck in the room because gateways.

rand
02-20-2015, 09:21 PM
A friend on Facebook convinced me that 7 seasons with 13 eps each is numerologically optimal, so I'm writing up a rough episode-by-episode outline based on that format, which is a little easier than 12. 13 eps is about normal for cable and even pay TV shows, e.g. the Sopranos. (As for budget see previous comments.)
Damn, now I want to try that to see if I can make my plan work. I'm not sure going beyond 10 episodes a season is financially conceivable. If GoT, the most popular show ever on HBO (I think?) can only get 10 episodes, I doubt WoT would get more. Though admittedly I'm not really sure how that works, depending on what channel the show is on. And I'd be basing mine assuming there aren't films released at the end of each season.

It will probably take me a little while to post this though. I'd want to try to figure out how long each scene should take and stuff like that.

And yeah, I'm aware 5 books a season is probably pushing it. I'll see how things work out when I write up an episode guide. A lot of Rand's stuff can be shoehorned into the LoC or tGS seasons.

ShadowbaneX
02-20-2015, 09:43 PM
The best example of a bottle episode used for dramatic effect is Babylon 5's "Intersections in Real Time."

I hate that episode with a fiery passion.

Seeker
02-20-2015, 11:15 PM
It's a very disturbing episode.

Terez
02-21-2015, 01:36 AM
Damn, now I want to try that to see if I can make my plan work. I'm not sure going beyond 10 episodes a season is financially conceivable. If GoT, the most popular show ever on HBO (I think?) can only get 10 episodes, I doubt WoT would get more.
You must have missed my comment (which you quoted!) which said to see my previous comments for budget considerations.

Morelikeunwisewoman
02-21-2015, 02:02 AM
You don't need bottle episodes in a WoT series. A bottle episode is not "a slow dialogue-heave episode that only has one or two sets."

It's an episode where character relationships are fleshed out and developed because the people in question are trapped together for whatever reason. A bottle episode works best with a small tightly-knit cast. It's usually used for some kind of character revelation. Jimmy slept with Sally but now he's dating Jen and Sally says something that spills the beans. It's usually used in sitcoms.

I don't know if anyone watches ER but they had a bottle episode in season 8 I believe. It started out in the ER itself just fine but then someone played a trick on the recently outed lesbian character and the five current main characters where whisked off to "sexual harassment" training. They were stuck in a room together and had to learn about each other blah blah blah. It was quite good actually and worked evwn within the spralling storylines of ER.

Terez
02-21-2015, 02:14 AM
Breaking Bad: the fly episode. I don't remember what it was called, but that seems a perfect example.

Edit: it was just called Fly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fly_%28Breaking_Bad%29).

Donna Bowman of The A.V. Club gave "Fly" an A grade, praising Rian Johnson's direction and remarking that the episode "would have been stellar even with more conventional direction, but with the unhinged images and bold juxtapositions Johnson provides, it's one of the most distinctive hours of television we're likely to see this year." Alan Sepinwall, writing for HitFix, speculated that "Fly" may be "the best bottle show ever" and remarked in the subtitle of his review that the budget-saving approach ended up leading to "an instant classic". In 2013, Matt Zoller Seitz, writing for Vulture, named "Fly" the greatest episode of the entire series, calling it a "perfect Breaking Bad episode and a perfect hour of television." The same year, the episode was ranked #5 in Entertainment Weekly's list ranking all the show's 62 episodes from best-to-worst, with Darren Franich writing, "Some people despise 'Fly' for its artsy pretensions and its go-nowhere plot arc. Others frankly think it belongs much higher on this list. But we can all agree that "Fly" is one of the great bottle episodes of the new golden age of TV."
I hated it.

GonzoTheGreat
02-21-2015, 07:01 AM
It's an episode where character relationships are fleshed out and developed because the people in question are trapped together for whatever reason. A bottle episode works best with a small tightly-knit cast. It's usually used for some kind of character revelation. Jimmy slept with Sally but now he's dating Jen and Sally says something that spills the beans. It's usually used in sitcoms, not large epic dramas.
Perrin and Egwene traveling together so as to meet Elias and get captured by the Whitecloaks.
The Dark Friend Social.
Rand, Loial and Hurin on their way to Rand's first date with Lady Selene.

Terez
02-21-2015, 07:10 AM
None of those should take anywhere near a whole episode.

rand
02-21-2015, 09:23 AM
You must have missed my comment (which you quoted!) which said to see my previous comments for budget considerations.
You mean this?

I have been saying for years that the only way to get a proper budget for a fantasy series is to do parallel releases in theaters. Game of Thrones is (finally) experimenting with that this season. Theater serials have been popular in the past; they can be popular again.

And I'd be basing mine assuming there aren't films released at the end of each season.

And if not, then, yeah, I didn't read much of the rest of the thread.



As for a WoT bottle episode, you could do a partial one in LoC with Rand in his box talking with LTT. It wouldn't be the whole episode, obviously, but if the point is just to cut down on budget it should work.

GonzoTheGreat
02-21-2015, 10:25 AM
None of those should take anywhere near a whole episode.
Well, if you want to, then you can add in the first date (including supporting cast of tame Grolm) as well.

Terez
02-21-2015, 10:28 AM
I'm not talking about films at the end of the season. I'm talking about every episode being released in theaters. It works like this: episode premiers in theaters on Friday night. Episode airs on TV on Sunday night. Game of Thrones is starting to do that this year in IMAX theaters; by the time the show is done they might well have established a phenomenon. I'm counting on that phenomenon to pave the way for a successful WoT show; without it, I doubt WoT can be done well, and I will probably not be happy with however it is done.

But I have faith that Game of Thrones can pave the way here, much as RJ paved the way in the world of epic fantasy in print form by expanding what length of series publishers would buy. Game of Thrones is popular enough to show that parallel theater releases can be extremely profitable for everyone involved, massively increasing the budgets available to a fantasy epic with similar popularity. And really, only Wheel of Time comes close at this point.

Seeker
02-21-2015, 10:44 AM
Perrin and Egwene traveling together so as to meet Elias and get captured by the Whitecloaks.
The Dark Friend Social.
Rand, Loial and Hurin on their way to Rand's first date with Lady Selene.

And you're still not getting the concept Gonzo. Those are not bottle episodes.

GonzoTheGreat
02-21-2015, 11:59 AM
The first takes place in the wild, and one bit of grass looks very much like the other, so why not have them walk around a bit instead of hiring an entire prairie?
The second had a few other bits of room and such mentioned, but those weren't really very relevant, and thus could be easily replaced by more focus on gathering of all those diverse evil doers.
The third once again takes place in the wild, with only the addition of the "Victory over Hawkwing" monument to break the monotony.

ShadowbaneX
02-21-2015, 12:17 PM
Perhaps it's more of a six-pack episode...

Kimon
02-21-2015, 12:57 PM
I'm not talking about films at the end of the season. I'm talking about every episode being released in theaters. It works like this: episode premiers in theaters on Friday night. Episode airs on TV on Sunday night. Game of Thrones is starting to do that this year in IMAX theaters; by the time the show is done they might well have established a phenomenon. I'm counting on that phenomenon to pave the way for a successful WoT show; without it, I doubt WoT can be done well, and I will probably not be happy with however it is done.

But I have faith that Game of Thrones can pave the way here, much as RJ paved the way in the world of epic fantasy in print form by expanding what length of series publishers would buy. Game of Thrones is popular enough to show that parallel theater releases can be extremely profitable for everyone involved, massively increasing the budgets available to a fantasy epic with similar popularity. And really, only Wheel of Time comes close at this point.

Why would anyone want to pay to see it in the theatre when they could just wait two days and see it much more comfortably in their own home? Especially when even if they don't have HBO, paying for it for a few months for the show would be far more cost efficient than going to the theatre (not to mention the vast number that are just watching it for free by streaming it illegally through their computer).

Any attempt at doing WoT will almost certainly be awful. Doing a live action version will definitely be awful. The series is just too long, with too many characters, too many locations, and far too much cgi needed to do it any justice. People look at game of thrones and the admirable job that HBO has done, but that just isn't possible for WoT. Game of Thrones, in addition to being much shorter plus the benefit of not needing to care about where GRRM is going with it (since he'll never finish it anyway), has almost no magic, and is almost all human characters. Too many monsters and too much magic in WoT all of which would have to be expensive cgi. If they do live action the only real options are either just doing New Spring, or just the first two (maybe three) books. But if I were HBO or Netflix I'd much rather buy the rights to something like King's The Dark Tower series than WoT, since the former would be so much easier to convert into a marketable show. The only way to do the entire series of WoT, and do it even passably well, would be an animated series. Live action would just be a huge mistake.

Unfortunately, this isn't Japan, the audience for anime here is basically non-existent. The best solution would probably be to convince Red Eagle to sell their rights to some anime studio - maybe Studio Ghibli.

Seeker
02-21-2015, 05:16 PM
The first takes place in the wild, and one bit of grass looks very much like the other, so why not have them walk around a bit instead of hiring an entire prairie?

Perrin and Egwene on the run after SL is not a bottle episode. Because it's outside, which means it requires location scouting. Bottle episodes take place on established sets and use only the main cast. Which means the guest star for Elyas also disqualifies it.


The second had a few other bits of room and such mentioned, but those weren't really very relevant, and thus could be easily replaced by more focus on gathering of all those diverse evil doers.

A scene full of guest stars. Which means it's not a bottle episode. Also, it's a single scene. It's not long enough to be an episode and dedicating an entire episode to that would be a massive waste of the preciously finite screentime that a show like this would need.


The third once again takes place in the wild, with only the addition of the "Victory over Hawkwing" monument to break the monotony.

Again, it's outside, which requires location scouting. A bottle episode takes place on established sets, usually on just ONE established set. And usually with a contrivance for why they can't (or won't) leave the established set.

Davian93
02-21-2015, 05:56 PM
How...

That's not what a Bottle Episode is. A bottle episode is almost all dialogue. A bottle episode is something like the episode of Friends that takes place entirely in Monica's living room. Or the episode of Community that takes place entirely in the study room.

Part of the specification - and the reason I think Dav is misusing the term - is that a Bottle Episode forces all the main cast into a tight, confined space, usually with some contrivance for why they can't get out of that space.

So in Friends, everyone's getting ready to go to Ross's dinner and they can't leave because no one is dressed.

In Community, Annie won't let anyone leave until she finds her missing pen. A bottle episode is not an action episode.

You can't do a bottle episode with a huge ensemble cast.

I wasn't misusing it, I think you are just misunderstanding me is all.

It doesn't have to be on a single set to qualify, it just has to use only pre-existing sets which would be possible in WoT if done right. Its about the money expended and if you limit location shots, extras and sets, its easy to do. There are many WoT story lines that could do that.

Terez
02-21-2015, 11:40 PM
Why would anyone want to pay to see it in the theatre when they could just wait two days and see it much more comfortably in their own home?
Because people like seeing things on the big screen.

Edit: I should add, aside from the lure of the big screen and the whole date culture built around it, one shouldn't underestimate the lure of a 2-days-early release for people who are really into the show, which will include book fans and non-book fans.

Seeker
02-22-2015, 02:03 AM
I wasn't misusing it, I think you are just misunderstanding me is all.

It doesn't have to be on a single set to qualify, it just has to use only pre-existing sets which would be possible in WoT if done right. Its about the money expended and if you limit location shots, extras and sets, its easy to do. There are many WoT story lines that could do that.

Oh, I see. You're using the original ship in a bottle concept from ST TOS. Gotcha. I still don't think that would work for WoT, but you are using the term correctly. Pretty much every episode of a WoT series would have to be high budget. Why?

Location scouting
Guest stars
Ever changing locations.
Costumes (Patrick Stewart had three uniforms at any given time and they seldom had to make new ones. Whoever plays Rand will need an entire wardrobe and that wardrobe will change with each season)
Main cast members all having their own storylines (Which means they all have to have their own locations, sets, costumes and guest stars)

Ship in a bottle episodes work because you don't need anything new. You already have the costumes, the sets, the cast, and you're not going to use special effects. A WoT series will constantly need new costumes, sets, guest stars, etc. That's just one reason why you shouldn't do it.

GonzoTheGreat
02-22-2015, 03:37 AM
Any attempt at doing WoT will almost certainly be awful. Doing a live action version will definitely be awful. The series is just too long, with too many characters, too many locations, and far too much cgi needed to do it any justice. People look at game of thrones and the admirable job that HBO has done, but that just isn't possible for WoT. Game of Thrones, in addition to being much shorter plus the benefit of not needing to care about where GRRM is going with it (since he'll never finish it anyway), has almost no magic, and is almost all human characters. Too many monsters and too much magic in WoT all of which would have to be expensive cgi.
Aginor solved that one already: genetic engineering.
Still leaves the Ogier problem, but aside from that: no worries. (The *finn can be done with a combination of some left over Star Trek costumes and bad lighting.)

Daekyras
02-22-2015, 09:07 AM
Aginor solved that one already: genetic engineering.
Still leaves the Ogier problem, but aside from that: no worries. (The *finn can be done with a combination of some left over Star Trek costumes and bad lighting.)

Is tankspill ever around these days?

He had a blog for a long time featuring his preferred cast for a WoT series. Some fun choices in there. And Liam Neeson as Lan. Terrible.

Kimon
02-22-2015, 11:32 AM
Is tankspill ever around these days?

He had a blog for a long time featuring his preferred cast for a WoT series. Some fun choices in there. And Liam Neeson as Lan. Terrible.

Joss Whedon's WoT

Lan = Nathan Fillion
Lanfear = Summer Glau
Moiraine = Alyson Hannigan
Semirhage = Gina Torres
Thom Merrilin = Neal Patrick Harris
Graendal = Morena Baccarin
Ishamael = Anthony Stewart Head
Rahvin = David Boreanaz
Sammael = Adam Baldwin
Asmodean = Seth Green

sleepinghour
02-22-2015, 02:46 PM
Some fun choices in there. And Liam Neeson as Lan. Terrible.

Liam Neeson is not who I'd have chosen to play Lan, but he was apparently RJ's model to some degree.

From RJ's notes via Team Jordan (https://plus.google.com/103674399065634804648/posts/42nqFPVKoLJ) (read on at your own peril; I don't take responsibility for any resulting trauma):

Rand: a young Ben Affleck
Mat: James Garner at age 21
Perrin: a young Val Kilmer
Egwene: Audrey Hepburn at age 18
Nynaeve: a young Jacqueline Bisset
Aviendha: a young Sophia Loren
Elayne: Nicole Kidman at age 18
Min: Isabella Rossellini
Tuon: Halle Berry
Moiraine: Hedy Lamarr
Lan: Liam Neeson in one of his craggier roles
Birgitte: Lucy Lawless of Xena
Faile: Cher at age 19
Thom: Patrick Stewart with hair
Verin: a young Margaret Rutherford
Siuan (after stilling): Renee Zellweger (before appearance change)
Gareth Bryne: a combination Charlton Heston and John Wayne
Morgase: Michelle Pfeiffer
Berelain: Isabelle Adjani
Padan Fain: Alan Rickman
Semirhage: Naomi Campbell or Tyra Banks
Demandred: Omar Sharif
Lanfear: a younger Catherine Deneuve

I can definitely see some of them, like Jacqueline Bisset as Nynaeve (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-KIZr8w_nV-g/US_r_jOLBrI/AAAAAAAAAKE/2lPHHWvUMAs/s1600/biss261.jpg) and Patrick Stewart as Thom. In other cases, it seems more likely he was going for a particular image/look or specific features (like Cher's nose for Faile and Isabella Rossellini's boyish hairstyle for Min) rather than exact likeness. Unlike Lanfear, Catherine Deneuve is blonde and tan, but had a classic type of beauty and was considered one of the most beautiful women of her time. As for Randfleck, my guess is that RJ was thinking "conventionally handsome guy."

Davian93
02-22-2015, 04:34 PM
Funny, I think Liam Neeson is a perfect casting for Lan...perhaps a slightly younger Liam but he definitely looks like him.

sleepinghour
02-22-2015, 05:15 PM
Funny, I think Liam Neeson is a perfect casting for Lan...perhaps a slightly younger Liam but he definitely looks like him.

I don't think Liam is that terrible of a choice, but someone like Anson Mount (http://www.imdb.com/media/rm3058019328/nm0609845?ref_=nmmi_mi_all_evt_20) is closer to how I tend to picture him, though he's a bit too handsome.

Which reminds me: I should get around to finishing my own WoT casting blog, which has been abandoned for a good while... For some reason, it's much easier to decide on actors for minor characters; I found a British actress called Rosie Marcel (http://www.holby.tv/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/jac_naylor5.jpg) who's pretty much a perfect Sheriam—a natural redhead with slanted green eyes and high cheekbones. The only trait she's missing is pleasant plumpness, but that's easily fixed.

Morelikeunwisewoman
02-22-2015, 05:25 PM
http://www.google.ie/search?q=josh+pence&client=ms-hms-vf-ie&channel=landingpage&biw=360&bih=615&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=8mTqVIHmFoKqU_f1gKgH&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ
Funny, I think Liam Neeson is a perfect casting for Lan...perhaps a slightly younger Liam but he definitely looks like him.

There is a young actor called josh pence who looks like a young liam neeson.

Funny thing is he is too young for Lan.

sleepinghour
02-22-2015, 05:32 PM
There is a young actor called josh pence who looks like a young liam neeson.

Funny thing is he is too young for Lan.

On the, er, bright side: by the time a proper WoT series finally gets made, he may not be.

rand
02-22-2015, 11:18 PM
I'm not talking about films at the end of the season. I'm talking about every episode being released in theaters.
Oh, ok. I thought you meant making a movie as the finale of each season, basically adding 2.5 hours to each season. I think this may have been mentioned for GoT as well, but I'm not sure now.




It would be kind of fun to make a cast list, but I honestly don't know enough actors to make a very good one lol. FWIW Liam Neeson looks like Lan, I think, but he doesn't sound like him.


Just an update on my own episode guide, I'm starting to combine stuff from books 4 and 5 in season 4. So far it's going pretty much like I planned. It's actually a lot harder than I thought it would be to juggle all the plots though, especially between multiple books. The only real issue I had is at the end of season 1. I did like Terez said and had it end with Moiraine and Siuan revealing that Rand's the DR (mostly because I fit everything else from tEotW into 9 episodes pretty easily). Anyway, the problem is the 2 month gap. I don't want a "Two Months Later" to come up on the screen halfway through, but if the months don't pass then Siuan would have no way to get there on time. The only solution I have so far is something cheesy like Moiraine sending Siuan a letter from Baerlon telling her to meet at Fal Dara.

Aside from that one issue, though, I haven't really cut out much of anything. I'm kinda dreading combining 4 or 5 books into one season, though...

Terez
02-22-2015, 11:59 PM
Oh, ok. I thought you meant making a movie as the finale of each season, basically adding 2.5 hours to each season. I think this may have been mentioned for GoT as well, but I'm not sure now.
It was, quite a while back, because GRRM didn't think it was possible to do the finale in a single TV-budget episode. I suspect he has been lobbying them ever since that realization to experiment with parallel theater releases. I understand it's been done for Dr. Who recently, on a very small scale, and Game of Thrones is going a little further with it than they did. By the time season 7 rolls around, they might have established the budget that GRRM wants.

PS: I have been miserably ill, so I haven't been working much on my outline. But yesterday I did log the scenes for a random GOT episode ("Oathkeeper") to get an idea for how long the scenes were, etc. I was surprised that the longest scenes were around 3 minutes in that particular episode (Sansa and Littlefinger, for example). Most of them were 2 minutes or less. In EOTW, I think most of the scenes I have marked out will average about 5 minutes. I have read many of them out loud (slowly) with a stopwatch to be sure. Others cannot be timed by dialogue and I just have to estimate as best I can.

rand
02-23-2015, 02:41 PM
Hope you feel better soon. And yeah, it's hard to know how long a scene should last. Pretty much everything takes less time than you'd imagine. I think the absolute longest scenes I have are around 4 minutes, but I don't really have any set way of defining "scenes." Like in episode 1 in Emond's Field I'd have something like "Rand talks with Mat (1:00)" then "Rand talks with Egwene (1:30)" then "Nynaeve talks to them (1:00)" etc. It's probably all one scene, but I divide it up by convsersations. A also take at least 5 minutes out of each episode to have time for opening credits, previews for the next week, etc.

Terez
02-23-2015, 03:38 PM
Yeah, I think I am going to avoid going that detailed with it for now. I feel pretty comfortable estimating, and if someone reads my outline and wants to argue that any given episode is going to take longer than an hour, then we can discuss that.

Game of Thrones has gone to 66 minutes for a finale. Every now and then in this outline, there is going to be an episode that would be better if it could go that long. Not always the last episode, I think. Whether these things are feasible depends most on what kind of budget you can swing.

rand
02-23-2015, 07:25 PM
I've actually managed to keep each episode under and hour except one so far, and that one should be easy enough to fix. Which is pretty good considering I'm just making it up as I go for the most part. I planned out the seasons, which I posted before, but I don't really start planning for each specific episode until maybe one or two episodes before it.

Rand al'Fain
02-23-2015, 09:07 PM
Hope you feel better soon. And yeah, it's hard to know how long a scene should last. Pretty much everything takes less time than you'd imagine. I think the absolute longest scenes I have are around 4 minutes, but I don't really have any set way of defining "scenes." Like in episode 1 in Emond's Field I'd have something like "Rand talks with Mat (1:00)" then "Rand talks with Egwene (1:30)" then "Nynaeve talks to them (1:00)" etc. It's probably all one scene, but I divide it up by convsersations. A also take at least 5 minutes out of each episode to have time for opening credits, previews for the next week, etc.
Battle scenes.
Granted, they don't really get big for a few books (unless you count Tarwin's Gap in EotW).

Kimon
02-23-2015, 09:49 PM
Yeah, I think I am going to avoid going that detailed with it for now. I feel pretty comfortable estimating, and if someone reads my outline and wants to argue that any given episode is going to take longer than an hour, then we can discuss that.

Game of Thrones has gone to 66 minutes for a finale. Every now and then in this outline, there is going to be an episode that would be better if it could go that long. Not always the last episode, I think. Whether these things are feasible depends most on what kind of budget you can swing.

I'm curious where you'd see a natural ending point for a hypothetical first episode. Is it Winternight, or Taren Ferry? Are you ignoring the Prologue, or fixing it? The Prologue itself raises another question, as its length struck me as very odd. It was at least twice as long as it seemed it should have been, but then they might well have felt that they needed to fill at least a half-hour slot (minus commercial time) to even half-ass their way to a shoddy claim at fulfilling their airing obligation window. Do others feel likewise, or did it feel correct in pacing, just a failure in everything else?

Terez
02-24-2015, 06:02 AM
I'm curious where you'd see a natural ending point for a hypothetical first episode.
Tam's fever dreams on the Quarry Road.

The prologue comes before the intro music, and shouldn't take any more than 10 minutes. Probably a good bit less.

Daekyras
02-24-2015, 08:33 AM
Tam's fever dreamin on the Quarry Road.

The prologue comes before the intro music, and shouldn't take any more than 10 minutes. Probably a good bit less.

Thats pretty cool. How many episodes In are you and can you post some. Even a breakdown like this will be great to set the mout watering?

yks 6nnetu hing
02-24-2015, 08:53 AM
Thats pretty cool. How many episodes In are you and can you post some. Even a breakdown like this will be great to set the mout watering?

Just a word of caution, T: if you do share your work, perhaps do so in a (password) protected environment.

Terez
02-24-2015, 08:58 AM
Just a word of caution, T: if you do share your work, perhaps do so in a (password) protected environment.
Nah. I really hope it does get stolen, if you know what I mean. I might even give explicit permission.

Daekyras
02-24-2015, 09:29 AM
Just a word of caution, T: if you do share your work, perhaps do so in a (password) protected environment.

You're on to me!

rand
02-25-2015, 02:08 PM
Just wanted to say that, in my episode guide, it's getting almost ridulously hard to figure out all the different storylines and where they should go. It's working, for the most part. I haven't really cut anything yet. But I have about 12 bookmarks spread out between LoC, aCoS, tPoD, and WH trying to write season 5 lol.


Also, I ended my episode 1 with Moiraine telling Rand he'll have to leave the Two Rivers with her.

Davian93
02-25-2015, 08:09 PM
Just wanted to say that, in my episode guide, it's getting almost ridulously hard to figure out all the different storylines and where they should go. It's working, for the most part. I haven't really cut anything yet. But I have about 12 bookmarks spread out between LoC, aCoS, tPoD, and WH trying to write season 5 lol.


Also, I ended my episode 1 with Moiraine telling Rand he'll have to leave the Two Rivers with her.

"I want to come with you to Alderaan. I want to learn the ways of the Force and be a Jedi like my father"

mogi67
02-26-2015, 06:02 AM
Min: Isabella Rossellini

Yes. oh god yes

Terez
02-26-2015, 06:49 AM
Also, I ended my episode 1 with Moiraine telling Rand he'll have to leave the Two Rivers with her.
I wanted to end the first episode with Tam's fever dreams partly because I want to end the first season with Rand learning he is the Dragon Reborn. During that scene he has flashbacks to Tam's fever dreams because they confirm the story Moiraine is telling him.

I also think the story would benefit from a slightly slower pace in the first half of EOTW, dwelling on the early character development. About halfway through the first season, the pace picks up and never really stops.

Another thought about "Dragonmount": this scene needs to be in the Old Tongue with subtitles. If Game of Thrones can do Dothraki and High Valyrian, then Wheel of Time can do the Old Tongue. It's an important set-up for Mat speaking the Old Tongue, and also, when the viewer reads "Betrayer of Hope", they should hear "Ishamael". It's just a terrible continuity issue to do it any other way.

Daekyras
02-26-2015, 07:06 AM
Yes. oh god yes

Yes. She was hot in that thing I saw her in.

That thing was 1995.

Rand al'Fain
02-26-2015, 08:58 AM
Yes. She was hot in that thing I saw her in.

That thing was 1995.

Now if only we could have a time machine that could transport the 20 year younger version here, we would be set. As it is, since time travel is still just a bit out of reach, maybe Jessica Alba? Or are her features a bit too soft for Min?

Davian93
02-26-2015, 09:02 AM
I wanted to end the first episode with Tam's fever dreams partly because I want to end the first season with Rand learning he is the Dragon Reborn. During that scene he has flashbacks to Tam's fever dreams because they confirm the story Moiraine is telling him.

I also think the story would benefit from a slightly slower pace in the first half of EOTW, dwelling on the early character development. About halfway through the first season, the pace picks up and never really stops.

Another thought about "Dragonmount": this scene needs to be in the Old Tongue with subtitles. If Game of Thrones can do Dothraki and High Valyrian, then Wheel of Time can do the Old Tongue. It's an important set-up for Mat speaking the Old Tongue, and also, when the viewer reads "Betrayer of Hope", they should hear "Ishamael". It's just a terrible continuity issue to do it any other way.

That is a great point.

On a somewhat serious sidenote, you might want to be careful with giving out entire scripts given that its not exactly unheard of for fans to get their scripts bought and then produced. Star Trek TNG used to do that all the time so you might end up losing out on thousands upon thousands of dollars as even the WGA minimum salary for a script is several thousand dollars.

Daekyras
02-26-2015, 09:26 AM
Now if only we could have a time machine that could transport the 20 year younger version here, we would be set. As it is, since time travel is still just a bit out of reach, maybe Jessica Alba? Or are her features a bit too soft for Min?

My point exactly. Alba? No. I would like to volunteer Alison Brie for the part. Cause I think she is just the right mix of cute and sassy.

Daekyras
02-26-2015, 09:29 AM
That is a great point.

On a somewhat serious sidenote, you might want to be careful with giving out entire scripts given that its not exactly unheard of for fans to get their scripts bought and then produced. Star Trek TNG used to do that all the time so you might end up losing out on thousands upon thousands of dollars as even the WGA minimum salary for a script is several thousand dollars.

Are you writing full scripts T? Wow, I thought you were just outlining the episode and bookmarking the major plot points in each. Writing the script would be a massive undertaking. Awed = Me.

GonzoTheGreat
02-26-2015, 10:17 AM
Now if only we could have a time machine that could transport the 20 year younger version here, we would be set. As it is, since time travel is still just a bit out of reach, maybe Jessica Alba? Or are her features a bit too soft for Min?
The way things are going right now, we could just wait for miss Rossellini to be reborn and grow up a bit, so that she would be the right age.

Davian93
02-26-2015, 12:07 PM
Are you writing full scripts T? Wow, I thought you were just outlining the episode and bookmarking the major plot points in each. Writing the script would be a massive undertaking. Awed = Me.

From the sounds of it, she's only at the outline/storyboard part of the process but I wouldn't put it past her to start developing full scripts based on those.

Kimon
02-26-2015, 04:13 PM
Now if only we could have a time machine that could transport the 20 year younger version here, we would be set. As it is, since time travel is still just a bit out of reach, maybe Jessica Alba? Or are her features a bit too soft for Min?

40 years younger - she's 62. Not sure what you guys, or RJ, could possibly be thinking here. She was too old for the part even back when she did Blue Velvet in 1986. Sure, her hair is short, but other than that it makes no sense. Maybe as Verin or Cadsuane.

Oh, and present day Rossellini would still be better than Jessica Alba. How that name could draw any association other than vapid is beyond me. Now a younger Alba would have been perfect for Egwene.

Snarkiness aside, if they do it, big (or sort of big) names for the older characters, not for the kids. Better for all of the Rand and age-mates to be unknowns.

Terez
02-26-2015, 05:14 PM
That is a great point.

On a somewhat serious sidenote, you might want to be careful with giving out entire scripts given that its not exactly unheard of for fans to get their scripts bought and then produced. Star Trek TNG used to do that all the time so you might end up losing out on thousands upon thousands of dollars as even the WGA minimum salary for a script is several thousand dollars.
I have thought of that, but there is a chance that protecting the scripts would prevent them from being used. Not a problem of improvements can be made, but if they go with an inferior script then I will be sad.

So, if I do write full scripts, I'll likely post them online with permission for use. They can keep their money for other things and if fans feel sorry for me they can always crowdfund me.

PS: if there are legal issues with that I would like to know what they are.

rand
02-26-2015, 05:45 PM
LOL, a full script of the series would be about 5000 to 6000 pages long...

It would be awesome if you got paid for it though.

Terez
02-26-2015, 05:49 PM
LOL, a full script of the series would be about 5000 to 6000 pages long...

It would be awesome if you got paid for it though.
It would be more awesome if WoT was done well for it. Everything else is secondary to that.

Davian93
02-26-2015, 06:14 PM
http://www.wga.org/uploadedFiles/writers_resources/contracts/min2014.pdf

Current WGA minimums...worth a skim if nothing else. It will give you a quick idea of why writers want that writing credit so badly on a screenplay, television show, etc. Its also why there are limits on how many writers can be credited depending on the type of story. I think tv shows have a limit of 3 credited writers...been a good 10-15 years since I really looked into it back when I thought I could write. :(

Still, if you were to complete some scripts and if WoT was ever really optioned, you could easily submit them to that production company and get credit and get paid for your contributions. Even if they take your script and utterly butcher it, you still have to get credited. WGA rules are pretty hard core about such things. If nothing else, its just fun to research.

sleepinghour
02-26-2015, 06:45 PM
40 years younger - she's 62. Not sure what you guys, or RJ, could possibly be thinking here. She was too old for the part even back when she did Blue Velvet in 1986. Sure, her hair is short, but other than that it makes no sense. Maybe as Verin or Cadsuane.

I don't think RJ was suggesting that Isabella should play Min—as you say, she was already much too old for the part by the time TEotW came out. And Hedy Lamarr was in her 70s at the time. So it may have been a fantasy cast thing, or he used some of his favorite actors as helpful visualizations when he created the characters. Even Team Jordan weren't sure when or why these associations came about.
In response to a fan who once asked Robert Jordan which actors and actresses he would cast if a movie were made about the Wheel of Time, he said that such power was never given to an author, but, regardless, he had never really thought much about it. He went on to say something about Sean Connery or Patrick Stewart in relation to Thom Merrilin, but that was the extent of it.

RJ’s notes, however, tell us that the fan may have asked the wrong question, as they give us insight into models he may have used for some of the characters. Whether these associations were prompted by the fan’s question, or whether RJ used these actors from the start as helpful visualizations, we don’t know. But it’s fun to learn about actors he may have associated with some of the WoT characters.

If you look up photos of a very young Isabella (http://images.fashionmodeldirectory.com/model/000000222619-isabella_rossellini-fit.jpg), it makes more sense, though I still think it was mainly her trademark short hairstyle that made RJ associate her with Min. As she got older, she became curvier and had a more mature, ageless kind of beauty like her mother Ingrid Bergman. The mid-thirties Isabella from Blue Velvet doesn't seem right even for an older Min, but she would have made a good Aes Sedai.


Gareth Bryne: a combination Charlton Heston and John Wayne

That might explain Bryne's name, too.

Daekyras
02-26-2015, 07:14 PM
That is a great point.

On a somewhat serious sidenote, you might want to be careful with giving out entire scripts given that its not exactly unheard of for fans to get their scripts bought and then produced. Star Trek TNG used to do that all the time so you might end up losing out on thousands upon thousands of dollars as even the WGA minimum salary for a script is several thousand dollars.

Something just occured to me- ST: TNG? Can you imagine having the job of reading tye unsolicited scripts? I bet you every second one at least was a "Q" episode....and the others were holodeck!!

Davian93
02-27-2015, 08:19 AM
Something just occured to me- ST: TNG? Can you imagine having the job of reading tye unsolicited scripts? I bet you every second one at least was a "Q" episode....and the others were holodeck!!

Barclay was the only guy on the ship that had any clue on how to use the holodeck "properly" and they crapped all over him for it.

https://40.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lmsyegrelY1qd5tdto1_500.png

rand
02-27-2015, 02:39 PM
I have a couple random questions that would help me with making my episode guide. Do we know...

1) Who Slayer was talking to in Far Madding?
2) Who sent the Darkhound group Perrin sees?
3) Who sent the attack on Algarin's house?
4) Who visited Slayer in the Town in aMoL?

I kind of remember the last one was Lanfear, but I'm pretty foggy on aMoL stuff. I've still only read it once, back when it came out. Which leads to my next question...

Does anyone know if there's a summary of all the chapters in aMoL out yet? EWOT and other WoT wikis just seem to have done the first 4 or 5 chapters and then stopped. But without this, I'll probably have to reread most of aMoL before finishing my episode guide, cause there's just too much I don't remember from it.

Terez
02-27-2015, 03:19 PM
I have a couple random questions that would help me with making my episode guide. Do we know...

1) Who Slayer was talking to in Far Madding?
Taim.

2) Who sent the Darkhound group Perrin sees?
Slayer was probably with them. They were looking for Fain.

3) Who sent the attack on Algarin's house?
We don't know for sure.

Daekyras
02-27-2015, 03:57 PM
3) Who sent the attack on Algarin's houset.

Who cares? It was so goddamned stupid. It is the only action scene in the books I wish was cut 100%. Even maradon was more acceptable than that crap.

Davian93
02-27-2015, 05:34 PM
Who cares? It was so goddamned stupid. It is the only action scene in the books I wish was cut 100%. Even maradon was more acceptable than that crap.

Yes.

It ends up being utterly meaningless and it should have ended up on the editing room floor along with probably 50% of the final few books.

Terez
02-27-2015, 06:39 PM
It's not totally meaningless; it was an important opportunity to show off the abilities of Rand and his friends, who were able to wipe out 100,000 Shadowspawn in like two minutes tops, and it was an important Lews Therin moment too.

The only reason it's "meaningless" to us is because RJ didn't leave notes on whodunit. I still think it was Fain, though.

Seeker
02-27-2015, 08:10 PM
It's not totally meaningless; it was an important opportunity to show off the abilities of Rand and his friends, who were able to wipe out 100,000 Shadowspawn in like two minutes tops, and it was an important Lews Therin moment too.

The only reason it's "meaningless" to us is because RJ didn't leave notes on whodunit. I still think it was Fain, though.

I think the issue is that they shouldn't be able to wipe out 100 000 shadowspawn. That just makes the shadowspawn lame and unthreatening.

Terez
02-27-2015, 08:17 PM
Not really. They were never intended to fight channelers; they were intended to overwhelm regular folk while channelers were occupied with each other.

Daekyras
02-28-2015, 11:45 AM
Not really. They were never intended to fight channelers; they were intended to overwhelm regular folk while channelers were occupied with each other.

T, usually you are so composed when iy comes to WoT but defending that scene is really, really close to blind fanboyism...

GonzoTheGreat
02-28-2015, 11:54 AM
T, usually you are so composed when iy comes to WoT but defending that scene is really, really close to blind fanboyism...
Note: if LTT hadn't picked that moment to reveal a couple of nifty (and somehow forgotten) Shadowspawn-killing weaves, then the whole lot of AS and Asha'man would have died there. Unless they'd gotten the bright idea of retreating through Gateways at the last moment, but I don't think we have any reason to credit them with such excessive intelligence.

It was at least as close run as the Last Battle itself, where, let's face it, Elayne should not only have organised the logistics of her own side, but should also have wondered how those massive numbers of Trollocs kept from starving to death. If they had managed to disrupt the Shadow's supply lines even a bit, then that could easily have killed half the Trollocs or more before they even made it to any battlefield.

Terez
02-28-2015, 12:32 PM
T, usually you are so composed when iy comes to WoT but defending that scene is really, really close to blind fanboyism...
It never even occurred to me to dislike it. Call it what you will.

fionwe1987
02-28-2015, 12:58 PM
Who cares? It was so goddamned stupid. It is the only action scene in the books I wish was cut 100%. Even maradon was more acceptable than that crap.

I'm chiming in to defend the scene as well. I felt it served multiple purposes. The destructive ability of the channelers was certainly one part of it. That it didn't pan out in the end is totally the fault of people who designed the battles in aMoL without thinking things through. I'm pretty sure RJ was setting the stage to show us that channelers were important for the Shadow to have. After this scene, we were left wondering what exactly the point of the Shadowspawn was.

Then, aMoL, as it was to be originally, would have shown you the Town in the Blight, you would have seen the huge hordes of Aiel channelers (the most underutilized and wasted aspect of the last three books as they stand), and this coming right after the Taim-Pevara scene, would have made clear the Shadow had a ton of channelers as well. Then you remember this battle, and get an idea of how spectacular the Last Battle is going to be, if Channelers are duking it out.

And then, you had the Lews Therin moment, which was very important as well.

I don't quite see how 40 channelers defeating 100K trollocs is stupider than Rand defeating 10 times that number alone. Maradon was the truly moronic scene.

Terez
02-28-2015, 03:48 PM
Maradon. I didn't remember until now what scene you guys were talking about.

Daekyras
02-28-2015, 06:11 PM
I'm chiming in to defend the scene as well. I felt it served multiple purposes. The destructive ability of the channelers was certainly one part of it. That it didn't pan out in the end is totally the fault of people who designed the battles in aMoL without thinking things through. I'm pretty sure RJ was setting the stage to show us that channelers were important for the Shadow to have. After this scene, we were left wondering what exactly the point of the Shadowspawn was.

Then, aMoL, as it was to be originally, would have shown you the Town in the Blight, you would have seen the huge hordes of Aiel channelers (the most underutilized and wasted aspect of the last three books as they stand), and this coming right after the Taim-Pevara scene, would have made clear the Shadow had a ton of channelers as well. Then you remember this battle, and get an idea of how spectacular the Last Battle is going to be, if Channelers are duking it out.

And then, you had the Lews Therin moment, which was very important as well.

I don't quite see how 40 channelers defeating 100K trollocs is stupider than Rand defeating 10 times that number alone. Maradon was the truly moronic scene.

It is not that this mansion scene is any worse than maradon. It is more the fact that this was the first "ridiculous" channeling scene we had really scene. On top of that was the sheer scare of the trolloc horde. 100,000 trollocs is simply a ludicrous number.

I dont have the greatest knowledge of the books here, but what was the biggest battle we had seen thus far in the books? The battle of cairhien in tFoH? That lasted for a long time and contained quite a few high level channelers. Some of whom died iirc. Algorins mansion featured 40 channelers carving the largest army we had seen until this point apart in minutes.

As you said fion, it is showing the importance of channelers and sure, I can see that. But what it also does is negate the danger of shadowspawn and really any non-channeler antagonist. And the Lews Therin moment was interesting and led to some great speculation at the time about his "nature" etc. But in the end that also led to quite a lot of head scratching after Rands epiphony moment.

Now, I'm not really gonna defend Maradon, as it was bloody annoying and frankly some of it was terribly written (like this post!), especially the "guy goes blind/tears his eyes out at the sight of Rand" stuff that had no context and also no follow through. What I did like about it was its call back to the end of tEotW when Rand appeared at Tarwins Gap and saved the borderlands. Then he went on to fight ishamel. And the infamous ALL CAPS VOICE made an appearence. It was a nice call back as this time Rand showed up just in time to save the day but, crucially, knew what he was doing. He demonstrated a power that he only hinted at in the first book and now it was him and not ALL CAPS that decided this was not the place. Thay was a progression on a previous event. Algarins mansion was simply a mis step from the author. Imo.

Terez
02-28-2015, 06:33 PM
It was by far one of the most popular scenes in the book after KOD came out, by the way. People had been waiting for a display of power like that. I still don't think it negates Shadowspawn; it was obvious enough before "Vows" that they could be easily killed with the Power.

fionwe1987
02-28-2015, 06:40 PM
It is not that this mansion scene is any worse than maradon. It is more the fact that this was the first "ridiculous" channeling scene we had really scene. On top of that was the sheer scare of the trolloc horde. 100,000 trollocs is simply a ludicrous number.
I don't see why it is particularly ridiculous. Way before then, we had known that the Trolloc hordes had reached into the millions in the Trolloc Wars and even for Talidar, just a thousand years ago. Were we expecting the Last Battle to be any less insane, in terms of numbers?

I dont have the greatest knowledge of the books here, but what was the biggest battle we had seen thus far in the books? The battle of cairhien in tFoH? That lasted for a long time and contained quite a few high level channelers. Some of whom died iirc. Algorins mansion featured 40 channelers carving the largest army we had seen until this point apart in minutes.
Cairhein was one of the larger engagements, yes. And it had about a quarter of a million Aiel on either side. And three channelers from Rand's side ranged against them till Sammael stepped in to destroy Rand's tower.

A good example of the one sided-ness of channeler vs. normals was Dumai's Wells. Sure, there were way more channelers in aggregate there than in Algarin's Manor. But the Wise Ones were very new to this, and fairly ineffective. But compare how quickly the Asha'man made mincemeat of the Shaido. And they had, what, 40-50k Aiel? It lasted a few minutes.

In Altara, Rand had a pretty small army, but was able to match the much bigger armies of the Seanchan due to the asymmetry of channeling firepower.

The idea that channelers can easily wipe out non-channelers has been there for a long time. Heck, Moiraine wiped out a couple of thousand on her own in EotW. Algarin's manor was a hint at how much worse things could get once weaves from the Age of Legends came into play. It also remains the best large-scale display of channeling we have, since Brandon tended to get fuzzy on details, or rely on one single spectacular weave.

As you said fion, it is showing the importance of channelers and sure, I can see that. But what it also does is negate the danger of shadowspawn and really any non-channeler antagonist.
Wasn't this obvious before? When Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve had a company of Whitecloaks on the run by just exploding the earth near them, the destructive power of channelers was made obvious. Heck, Rand killed thousands of them in one instance in the Stone of Tear.

The only really new thing here was how efficient AoL weaves were to create large scale destruction. Had we had a proper channeler vs channeler set up for the finale, much of this would have been negated, instead of the Manor battle sticking out like a sore thumb.

And the Lews Therin moment was interesting and led to some great speculation at the time about his "nature" etc. But in the end that also led to quite a lot of head scratching after Rands epiphony moment.
No, it was interesting to see how much control Rand was losing. And to show that a part of Rand just wanted to die, and this was manifesting as Lews Therin's suicidal behavior.

Now, I'm not really gonna defend Maradon, as it was bloody annoying and frankly some of it was terribly written (like this post!), especially the "guy goes blind/tears his eyes out at the sight of Rand" stuff that had no context and also no follow through.
The terrible writing apart, it just made no bloody sense. Even with his fat man angreal, which Rand somehow found, he's still not strong enough to destroy so many Trollocs. Heck, Demandred with the second strongest male sa'angreal and a circle of 72 wasn't shown to be as destructive. Brandon just went childishly overboard.

What I did like about it was its call back to the end of tEotW when Rand appeared at Tarwins Gap and saved the borderlands. Then he went on to fight ishamel. And the infamous ALL CAPS VOICE made an appearence. It was a nice call back as this time Rand showed up just in time to save the day but, crucially, knew what he was doing. He demonstrated a power that he only hinted at in the first book and now it was him and not ALL CAPS that decided this was not the place. Thay was a progression on a previous event. Algarins mansion was simply a mis step from the author. Imo.
I think you're reaching to compare this to Tarawin's Gap. First of all, Rand couldn't have fought the Dark One even if he wanted to. He was thousands of leagues from Shayol Ghul. And even if he just Traveled there, there would be hordes of Shadowspawn, and the Foresaken, ready to destroy him. His decision wasn't really a decision. Its like me deciding not to go to the moon today.

And Rand never showed any hints of this kind of power. With the Choedan Kal, or Callandor? Sure. With a measly angreal? I can't point to anything in the previous books to hint at it.

Terez
02-28-2015, 06:43 PM
Rand also killed tens of thousands of Shadowspawn on his own at Tarwin's Gap in TEOTW.

Edit: somehow I missed discussion of this above.

fionwe1987
02-28-2015, 06:44 PM
It was by far one of the most popular scenes in the book after KOD came out, by the way. People had been waiting for a display of power like that. I still don't think it negates Shadowspawn; it was obvious enough before "Vows" that they could be easily killed with the Power.

Yup, I remember that too. It whet the appetite, and I think the overwhelming thought was that RJ must have some crazy channeler stuff planned for the Shadow to negate the advantage the light had over Shadowspawn.

fionwe1987
02-28-2015, 06:50 PM
Rand also killed tens of thousands of Shadowspawn on his own at Tarwin's Gap in TEOTW.

Edit: somehow I missed discussion of this above.

Yup.

Daekyras
02-28-2015, 07:07 PM
I don't see why it is particularly ridiculous. Way before then we had known that the Trolloc hordes had reached into the millions in the Trolloc Wars and even for Talidar, just a thousand years ago. Were we expecting the Last Battle to be any less insane, in terms of numbers?


Cairhein was one of the larger engagements, yes. And it had about a quarter of a million Aiel on either side. And three channelers from Rand's side ranged against them till Sammael stepped in to destroy Rand's tower.

A good example of the one sided-ness of channeler vs. normals was Dumai's Wells. Sure, there were way more channelers in aggregate there than in Algarin's Manor. But the Wise Ones were very new to this, and fairly ineffective. But compare how quickly the Asha'man made mincemeat of the Shaido. And they had, what, 40-50k Aiel? It lasted a few minutes.

In Altara, Rand had a pretty small army, but was able to match the much bigger armies of the Seanchan due to the asymmetry of channeling firepower.

The idea that channelers can easily wipe out non-channelers has been there for a long time. Heck, Moiraine wiped out a couple of thousand on her own in EotW. Algarin's manor was a hint at how much worse things could get once weaves from the Age of Legends came into play. It also remains the best large-scale display of channeling we have, since Brandon tended to get fuzzy on details, or rely on one single spectacular weave.


Wasn't this obvious before? When Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve had a company of Whitecloaks on the run by just exploding the earth near them, the destructive power of channelers was made obvious. Heck, Rand killed thousands of them in one instance in the Stone of Tear.

The only really new thing here was how efficient AoL weaves were to create large scale destruction. Had we had a proper channeler vs channeler set up for the finale, much of this would have been negated, instead of the Manor battle sticking out like a sore thumb.


No, it was interesting to see how much control Rand was losing. And to show that a part of Rand just wanted to die, and this was manifesting as Lews Therin's suicidal behavior.


The terrible writing apart, it just made no bloody sense. Even with his fat man angreal, which Rand somehow found, he's still not strong enough to destroy so many Trollocs. Heck, Demandred with the second strongest male sa'angreal and a circle of 72 wasn't shown to be as destructive. Brandon just went childishly overboard.


I think you're reaching to compare this to Tarawin's Gap. First of all, Rand couldn't have fought the Dark One even if he wanted to. He was thousands of leagues from Shayol Ghul. And even if he just Traveled there, there would be hordes of Shadowspawn, and the Foresaken, ready to destroy him. His decision wasn't really a decision. Its like me deciding not to go to the moon today.

And Rand never showed any hints of this kind of power. With the Choedan Kal, or Callandor? Sure. With a measly angreal? I can't point to anything in the previous books to hint at it.

I can't multi-quote from my phone so apologies for the ugly response!

At dumai's wells the ashaman routed the shaido. They showed up completely unexpectedly in the middle of the army and started making things explode. The shaido broke and ran. This was impressive, yes. Did they kill fifty thousand of them? I dont think so. They just routed them.

of course channelers are more powerful than non-channelers. And of course there were feats with the power in the earlier books. But, and again, this is only opinion, I dont feel we saw anything as far fetched as algarins manor.

in tEotW I always felt the band were in danger. Even when I read the book several weeks ago I felt that moiraine was hard pressed to keep them safe. If she could kill thousands of trollocs in a short period of time then there would be no danger, no flight from the two rivers. Why would she flee? She could just wait it out and kill them all.

staying in the two rivers, perrin returns in the shadow rising and helps the towns people and a couple of hundred whitecloaks fight off trollocs. And they had two (three) aes sedai with them. They didn't wipe out the hordes of trollocs.

in each of the battles we saw in those earlier books there was a restraint. There was no over reliance on cool weaves. Yes, Rand killed thousands of trollocs at the end of tEotW but 1. He used the eye as his power source and 2. We were realising that he was the same man(reborn) who had lost control in the prologue and created a giant volcano as a tomb. Rand had no real control here and there was no clear sense the power was coming from him.

Daekyras
02-28-2015, 07:17 PM
And now I'm double posting. Silly phone.

In all of the examples you gave there was a fuzzyness to the numbers involved.

I will admit this easily- everytime I read the battle of cairhien and dumais wells and other battles involving the seanchan I don't get the gigantic numbers involved. Take cairhien for example- I have read tFoH many, mamy times. In fact it is my favourite book of all time. In any genre. But I do not see that battleas having 500,000 warriors in it. It is so well written that if you told me there were 5,000 I would believe you. There is a palpable sense of danger for our characters.

Algarins manner was the first time, to me, that channeling became crazy powered. Again, of course channelers are more powerful than your average non-channeler but there was always the thought that a channeler could be taken down. After algarins how could anyone think that? 40 killed 100,000 in the space of three mins and the course of about three pages.

I know there were feats of power before but nothing to this scale. It was unnecessary and, frankly, bad.

Terez
02-28-2015, 07:25 PM
I will admit this easily- everytime I read the battle of cairhien and dumais wells and other battles involving the seanchan I don't get the gigantic numbers involved. Take cairhien for example- I have read tFoH many, mamy times. In fact it is my favourite book of all time. In any genre. But I do not see that battleas having 500,000 warriors in it. It is so well written that if you told me there were 5,000 I would believe you. There is a palpable sense of danger for our characters.
In spite of himself, he winced. If the Aiel scouts could count, Couladin had nearly one hundred and sixty thousand spears – Shaido and those who had supposedly gone to join their societies among the Shaido. A hard nut to crack, and prickly. This side of the Spine of the World had not seen an army like that since Artur Hawkwing's time.

The second map showed the other clans that had crossed the Dragonwall. All had now, in one force or another, strung out according to when they had left the Jangai and spread apart, but too close to here for comfort. The Shiande, the Codarra, the Daryne, and the Miagoma. Between them, they apparently had at least as many spears as Couladin; they had not left many behind, if that was true. The seven clans with Rand almost doubled that, easily enough to face Couladin or the four clans. Either or. Not both, not at once. But both at once might be what Rand had to fight.
.

Daekyras
02-28-2015, 07:38 PM
T, I dont think you got my point. I was not questioning fionwe's numbers. He's very good at that kinda stuff.

I was trying to get across that the large numbers are just backgtound noise. Wow, this must be an epic battle as there sre two huge armies fighting and a third to come. However, the entire battle/war is described in terms of skirmishes. It is a beautifully described set of scenes.

In algarins you have no choice but to pay attention to the huge number of shadowspawn as it is forced on you. It is front and centre as "look at this" .

Terez
02-28-2015, 07:49 PM
T, I dont think you got my point.
No, I'm pretty sure I did.

fionwe1987
02-28-2015, 07:54 PM
At dumai's wells the ashaman routed the shaido. They showed up completely unexpectedly in the middle of the army and started making things explode. The shaido broke and ran. This was impressive, yes. Did they kill fifty thousand of them? I dont think so. They just routed them.
Actually, they were in the midst of completely finishing them off. Rand stopped them at Min's request. Even when they turned tail and ran, the Asha'man kept killing them.And they would have wiped them out but for Rand interceding.

of course channelers are more powerful than non-channelers. And of course there were feats with the power in the earlier books. But, and again, this is only opinion, I dont feel we saw anything as far fetched as algarins manor.
But we never saw an equivalent of Algarin's manor before. We have 40 very skilled channelers, and few of them were "weak". Several were likely linked, several had power angreal, some of them were the most skilled and powerful channelers the Light has, three of them had several hundred years of channeling experience (though Rand's was via LTT, it doesn't matter, since LTT was in control anyway). Plus, Rand was using weaves specifically designed to cause maximal destruction of Shadowspawn. And his men were able to quickly copy the deadliest of them all, the Blossoms of Fire.

The point of this was to show that the humongous hordes of Shadowspawn exist for a reason. The giant hordes during the Trolloc Wars: how do you think humans survived against them? It is because each band had Aes Sedai with them. We already knew, at this point, that when they found Rashima Kerenmosa's body in Maighande, there was literally a mountain of dead Trollocs around her, this despite her having fought and killed nine Dreadlords at the same time. In EotW, Agelmar says Moiraine is worth a thousand lances. There were several women much stronger than her, and quite a few men who we can confirm were stronger too. Plus, some of them had powerful angreal, and some of them were in mixed-gender links.

I dunno. I found it to be perfectly to scale. The channeling was brutal and effective, and the position was certainly very favorable to the channelers. They were in a manor, and the Trollocs in open ground coming at them. I'd have been surprised if this went any other way.


She did kill thousands. It just cost her a lot, since Earth and Fire weren't her strong point. She could have used Air, but Aes Sedai seem less creative with its use for battle.
[quote]staying in the two rivers, perrin returns in the shadow rising and helps the towns people and a couple of hundred whitecloaks fight off trollocs. And they had two (three) aes sedai with them. They didn't wipe out the hordes of trollocs.
Those two Aes Sedai did quite a lot of destructive stuff. But again, this was two against sever tens of thousand Trollocs, not 40 against a hundred thousand.
in each of the battles we saw in those earlier books there was a restraint. There was no over reliance on cool weaves. Yes, Rand killed thousands of trollocs at the end of tEotW but 1. He used the eye as his power source and 2. We were realising that he was the same man(reborn) who had lost control in the prologue and created a giant volcano as a tomb. Rand had no real control here and there was no clear sense the power was coming from him.
But what about in the Stone of Tear, when he killed thousands of them in one instant? Or when Egwene and Aviendha made fifty foot high spumes of exploding earth, completely destroying the advance of the Aiel towards Cairhein? I think you've just whited out the individual cases of extreme destruction the Channelers have shown. So when 40 of them concentrated their firepower, it seems outlandish, instead of seeming completely natural.

And now I'm double posting. Silly phone.

In all of the examples you gave there was a fuzzyness to the numbers involved.

I will admit this easily- everytime I read the battle of cairhien and dumais wells and other battles involving the seanchan I don't get the gigantic numbers involved. Take cairhien for example- I have read tFoH many, mamy times. In fact it is my favourite book of all time. In any genre. But I do not see that battleas having 500,000 warriors in it. It is so well written that if you told me there were 5,000 I would believe you. There is a palpable sense of danger for our characters.
Yes, those were large scale battles. Not a single engagement.

Algarins manner was the first time, to me, that channeling became crazy powered.
No, it was merely the first time we saw a team of skilled channelers let loose.
Again, of course channelers are more powerful than your average non-channeler but there was always the thought that a channeler could be taken down. After algarins how could anyone think that? 40 killed 100,000 in the space of three mins and the course of about three pages.
Look, as far back as EotW, we saw Moiraine destroy thousands of them. Agelmar made a throwaway remark that one Aes Sedai can turn the tide at Tarwin's Gap, and Moiraine doesn't contradict him.
I know there were feats of power before but nothing to this scale. It was unnecessary and, frankly, bad.
It was very necessary. How else was the Light supposed to have a prayer against millions of Trollocs?

Terez
02-28-2015, 08:00 PM
In TFOH, Rand barely remembers anything from Lews Therin at all. In fact, that battle is the first time he knowingly uses a a weapon from that memory store, and it triggers a memory of Ilyena, so he makes an effort to suppress it after that, sticking with the trick of blowing up hilltops that he got in the first place.

fionwe1987
02-28-2015, 08:19 PM
In TFOH, Rand barely remembers anything from Lews Therin at all. In fact, that battle is the first time he knowingly uses a a weapon from that memory store, and it triggers a memory of Ilyena, so he makes an effort to suppress it after that, sticking with the trick of blowing up hilltops that he got in the first place.

Indeed.

A memory slid across the emptiness. Not his; Lews Therin’s. For once he did not care. In an instant he channeled, and a ball of fire enveloped the top of a hill nearly five miles away, a churning mass of pale yellow flame. When it faded, he could see without the looking glass that the hill was lower now, and black at the crest, seemingly melted. Between the three of them, there might be no need for the clans to fight Couladin at all.

Of course, the difference there was that the three of them were really far away from Couladin's armies, which were also very spread out. Also, none of them was at peak strength and skill, though Egwene was close to reaching her potential, at least.

In the Manor, the Trollocs were close, and all concentrated in one oncoming wave.

Davian93
02-28-2015, 11:03 PM
Note: if LTT hadn't picked that moment to reveal a couple of nifty (and somehow forgotten) Shadowspawn-killing weaves, then the whole lot of AS and Asha'man would have died there. Unless they'd gotten the bright idea of retreating through Gateways at the last moment, but I don't think we have any reason to credit them with such excessive intelligence.

It was at least as close run as the Last Battle itself, where, let's face it, Elayne should not only have organised the logistics of her own side, but should also have wondered how those massive numbers of Trollocs kept from starving to death. If they had managed to disrupt the Shadow's supply lines even a bit, then that could easily have killed half the Trollocs or more before they even made it to any battlefield.

Evacuate?...in our moment of triumph? I think you overestimate their chances.

Davian93
02-28-2015, 11:12 PM
On a serious note though, all the back and forth doesn't change the fact that the battle ended up being fairly meaningless as did large chunks of those final books (the entire Black Ajah hunt is another glaring sore thumb along those lines...as is pretty much all of the AS intrigue crap outside of maybe a couple scenes).

Terez
02-28-2015, 11:24 PM
I think it's unfair to dismiss it as "crap" when RJ didn't get a chance to finish it on his own terms.

Davian93
02-28-2015, 11:42 PM
I think it's unfair to dismiss it as "crap" when RJ didn't get a chance to finish it on his own terms.

I'm not really blaming RJ for it, T. Its not his fault at all. Maybe it would have been better had he lived to finish it but its still a stretch. I tend to think he started falling victim to the same issue many successful writers fall into once they are big enough to ignore their editors. It wasn't nearly as bad as GRRM but the bloat was starting to develop in CoS.

Edit; To clarify why I don't blame RJ. I can't blame him for really anything given that he didn't get to finish it the way he wanted so its impossible to judge him on what his artistic vision was going to be. Perhaps his notes will help with that when/if they are published or, at least, made available for review by the general public.

fionwe1987
02-28-2015, 11:42 PM
I think it's unfair to dismiss it as "crap" when RJ didn't get a chance to finish it on his own terms.

Yeah. I somehow get the feeling that RJ didn't intend for Alviarin to disappear in the final book till the moment she gets trapped in an Ogier stedding.

Frankly, I'm not even sure how the people working on the book failed to capitalize on all the seeds RJ planted.

Davian93
02-28-2015, 11:45 PM
Yeah. I somehow get the feeling that RJ didn't intend for Alviarin to disappear in the final book till the moment she gets trapped in an Ogier stedding.

Frankly, I'm not even sure how the people working on the book failed to capitalize on all the seeds RJ planted.

I can tell you exactly how Van Gogh went about painting his masterpieces and I've even been to many of the locations where he painted in the south of France. I could never attempt to "see" as he does though. I suspect it was much the same with BS trying to emulate RJ's vision.

Davian93
02-28-2015, 11:45 PM
Yeah. I somehow get the feeling that RJ didn't intend for Alviarin to disappear in the final book till the moment she gets trapped in an Ogier stedding.

Frankly, I'm not even sure how the people working on the book failed to capitalize on all the seeds RJ planted.

Yeah but at least we got that really, really cool new character and sub-plot. I mean, he makes leather and stuff and he has a Talent for gateways...how cool is that???

rand
03-01-2015, 01:17 AM
I decided to cut the attack on Algarin's manor in my episode guide, mainly because it's too similar to Maradon and the Maradon battle feels more Last Battle-y to me. I kept Rand's struggle with LTT but moved it somewhere else. I cut the BA Hunters completely since it never really went anywhere, and had Alviarin killed by Nynaeve during the fight in TAR in the Tower during ToM. I'm keeping Androl, but only as a viewpoint of the good guys in the BT. After he frees Logain I'll probably kill him off and give some of his scenes to Logain.

I'm pretty much done my episode guide except for the last 7 episodes, but I'll need to reread aMoL before I do those (which I already started). I was able to stick with my original season by season guide. I'll try to start posting them on Monday, probably just a few episodes at a time.


This is unrelated to anything else, but a few things that really annoy me about the BS books (that have nothing to do with his writing):
-The godawful character names. I know a lot of them are fan names, but some off them are just so stupid...
-The chapter names. I know Harriet picks them, but they just seem very vague in the Brandon trilogy. Especially aMoL.
-All the different, seemingly random PoVs crammed in one chapter. I thing this is one of the main reasons I have a hard time remembering stuff from Brandon's books. Instead of getting 4 or 5 Perrin chapters in a row like in the RJ books, we get them all spread out in ToM, half of them going back and forth between Perrin and Galad five or six times. And occasionally another character will pop up in a Perrin chapter who's completely unrelated. I'm really not sure what they were thinking when they created the chapter divisions (not sure if this is Brandon or not). Basically I would have rather had the books have 100 chapters than to have them only be 40 chapters long but have each one crammed full of unrelated PoVs.

GonzoTheGreat
03-01-2015, 03:43 AM
When considering the effectiveness of channelers versus non-channelers, there is also Falme to remember, where a legion of Whitecloaks got cut to pieces by a couple of hastily assembled damane.

fionwe1987
03-01-2015, 11:37 AM
I'm not really blaming RJ for it, T. Its not his fault at all. Maybe it would have been better had he lived to finish it but its still a stretch. I tend to think he started falling victim to the same issue many successful writers fall into once they are big enough to ignore their editors. It wasn't nearly as bad as GRRM but the bloat was starting to develop in CoS.

Edit; To clarify why I don't blame RJ. I can't blame him for really anything given that he didn't get to finish it the way he wanted so its impossible to judge him on what his artistic vision was going to be. Perhaps his notes will help with that when/if they are published or, at least, made available for review by the general public.

I won't deny there is bloat, but bloat in RJ's work was somewhat different than GRRMs. A lot of it was within the storylines of the main characters. The extra new arcs, for the most part, tended to be pretty tight narratives. Be it Logain and his rivalry with Taim, or the Black Ajah hunters, we got very few chapters focusing on these storylines, yet they moved along quite well. Seaine made for a good viewpoint character, sympathetic and grounded, and she and Pevara made for an entertaining read together.

Of course, it all ended up going nowhere in a spectacularly disappointing fashion. The BA hunters ended up being boring lackeys for Egwene within the Tower. It never sat right with me. I expected them to initially team up, but RJ was also clearly setting up Romanda to be an ally for Egwene, and that was completely screwed up. I don't think Egwene was supposed to face much in the way of political opposition once she had helped clean off the Black Ajah and reunited the Tower. I think the idea was for these Sitters and Romanda to be instrumental in cleaning up the BA mess, then pretty much fade into being a functional team for Egwene.

fionwe1987
03-01-2015, 11:49 AM
I can tell you exactly how Van Gogh went about painting his masterpieces and I've even been to many of the locations where he painted in the south of France. I could never attempt to "see" as he does though. I suspect it was much the same with BS trying to emulate RJ's vision.
That works perfectly for things like character voices and general writing style. But not so much for plot, especially considering how "detailed" we were told RJ's outline was.

It seems to me the outline wasn't as detailed, because RJ, understandably, didn't think the minor things were important. But I think team Jordan, and yes, Brandon, could have gone through the books with a finer toothcomb to find hints for what RJ intended. Would it have been exactly what RJ did? Unlikely. But at least the story would have flowed better with the first 11 books. Changing so many secondary characters really makes the last three books seem weird. Yes, RJ had too many of them, and many were cardboard cutouts, but not all. And just chopping them off to make the writing easier was one of the worst decisions the team made with the last three books.

Yeah but at least we got that really, really cool new character and sub-plot. I mean, he makes leather and stuff and he has a Talent for gateways...how cool is that???
You know, Brandon's justification for this made it seem like he was adding a minor new character to make the books seem more personal to him. But the way he had that character cannibalize focus from others who had books of buildup is really... wrong. Yes, neither Logain, nor Narishma or Flinn had been major characters. But RJ was clearly ramping up Logain. Seeing the entirety of the BT fight from Androl's point of view, with us not even seeing how Logain and his friends were captured, it just a horrible encroachment on Brandon's part.

Daekyras
03-01-2015, 02:07 PM
You know, Brandon's justification for this made it seem like he was adding a minor new character to make the books seem more personal to him. But the way he had that character cannibalize focus from others who had books of buildup is really... wrong. Yes, neither Logain, nor Narishma or Flinn had been major characters. But RJ was clearly ramping up Logain. Seeing the entirety of the BT fight from Androl's point of view, with us not even seeing how Logain and his friends were captured, it just a horrible encroachment on Brandon's part.

I couldnt agree more.

The thing I found strange was the androl love just after his introduction. The same thing with the ridiculous name choices and silly fan service. Lots of people defended them when they are pretty indefensible.... (like algarins! ; p)

Davian93
03-01-2015, 02:57 PM
I couldnt agree more.

The thing I found strange was the androl love just after his introduction. The same thing with the ridiculous name choices and silly fan service. Lots of people defended them when they are pretty indefensible.... (like algarins! ; p)

Yup.

Kimon
03-01-2015, 03:10 PM
I couldnt agree more.

The thing I found strange was the androl love just after his introduction. The same thing with the ridiculous name choices and silly fan service. Lots of people defended them when they are pretty indefensible.... (like algarins! ; p)

Not sure why there is such a problem with the Algarin Incident. It was just designed to demonstrate once again an increase in scale of how much damage a well-trained (i.e. non-Aes Sedai) group of channelers could do to an extremely daunting horde when that force wasn't provided with a contingent of support-channelers of their own. The only problem with it is the why it was done, as a testing of the readiness of their adversary (if the attack was sent by say Moridin, Demandred, or Taim), or just a pointless attempt at killing Rand again (if by Fain, albeit something we have seen Fain do many times previously). The scene makes more sense if the former, but still provides some usefulness for the reader if the latter. If we could say with certainty that it was Fain, then yes, the scene is somewhat pointless, but if the former, one suspects that had RJ completed the books we would have seen a short POV from whoever sent that attack commenting on how it had been a test, and that this time he (whichever of the three it was) had made sure to include enough channelers to offset the asha'man - which we see at Maradon and all other subsequent battles. The Manor made clear that shadowspawn alone were useless against even a few dozen battle-trained channelers, even if that same force likely would have been enough to say overrun all of Murandy.

Androl on the other hand is a fatal flaw. Even Algarin would have been a better choice by Brandon, but neglecting Logain, Narishma, and Flinn was unforgivable. Brandon did a decent job, but I doubt I'm far from the only one of us who has re-read RJ's books mnay times, but hasn't re-read any of Brandon's WoT books.

Edit:

If the critique is mainly about the futility of Shadow-tactics (not that we don't see problems elsewhere), but ceratinly if such a force could have been risen, it certainly is an indictment of the strategic vision of Demandred and the others that they did not simply release scattered, smaller, hordes of trollocs with Myrddraal throughout all the lands to sow chaos and fear amongst the common denizens of the countryside. Not only would the fear and chaos be useful in of itself for creating instability, but it would have seriously infringed upon the ability of the Light to concentrate its forces as each land would have desired to protect its own citizenry. As it was, most common people never would have experienced any effects from either TG or the devastation caused by the DO (by contrast many more would have experienced first-hand the effects of the Seanchan conquest and the Shaido diaspora), except for the weather. TG really seemed to be experienced only by Saldaeans, the Andorans (especially those living in Caemlyn, and the soldiers who were at Merrilor. It's hard to imagine it having the same psychological impact even as the Trolloc Wars, which seems odd.

Terez
03-01-2015, 03:24 PM
The only problem with it is the why it was done, as a testing of the readiness of their adversary (if the attack was sent by say Moridin, Demandred, or Taim), or just a pointless attempt at killing Rand again (if by Fain, albeit something we have seen Fain do many times previously). The scene makes more sense if the former, but still provides some usefulness for the reader if the latter. If we could say with certainty that it was Fain, then yes, the scene is somewhat pointless, but if the former, one suspects that had RJ completed the books we would have seen a short POV from whoever sent that attack commenting on how it had been a test, and that this time he (whichever of the three it was) had made sure to include enough channelers to offset the asha'man - which we see at Maradon and all other subsequent battles.
Why can't it be a test with Fain? That would be how Fain would rationalize it to himself, the same way he rationalized sending the Whitecloaks after Rand in LOC. He wants to kill Rand personally, but he's too scared to risk it most of the time, hence luring him to Far Madding. So the Whitecloaks were a test.

What did he have to work with? Only a few remained of his onetime Children of the Light. That had only been a test really – he would have made the man who actually managed to kill al’Thor beg to be skinned alive! – yet it had cost him numbers. He had the Myrddraal, a handful of Trollocs hidden outside the city, a few Darkfriends gathered in Caemlyn and on the way from Tar Valon. The pull of al’Thor dragged him on.

Kimon
03-01-2015, 03:36 PM
Why can't it be a test with Fain? That would be how Fain would rationalize it to himself, the same way he rationalized sending the Whitecloaks after Rand in LOC. He wants to kill Rand personally, but he's too scared to risk it most of the time, hence luring him to Far Madding. So the Whitecloaks were a test.

Yeah, that quote and the earlier "assassination" attempts were what I was thinking of with Fain. Fain's story-line unfortunately went nowhere. Maybe RJ just lost track of what to do with him, maybe BS just couldn't imagine anything useful, but his denouement was just unsatisfying. This attack would have been in-standing with his modus operandi, and would help to explain the lack of channelers, but if Fain, one would expect him to have been nearby, wishing to observe the aftermath if it worked, and a POV from him like the one that you included giving his mix of anger and relief that it failed. It would have thus both fit his usual antics, but also been unnecessary for advancing the story. By contrast, if by one of the actual Shadow-strategists, a pure test makes more sense.

RJ should have just had Fain die in Far Madding, his surviving that altercation was completely unnecessary.

Daekyras
03-01-2015, 03:51 PM
. The scene makes more sense if the former, but still provides some usefulness for the reader if the latter. If we could say with certainty that it was Fain, then yes, the scene is somewhat pointless, but if the former, one suspects that had RJ completed the books we would have seen a short POV from whoever sent that attack commenting on how it had been a test, and that this time he (whichever of the three it was) had made sure to include enough channelers to offset the asha'man - which we see at Maradon and all other subsequent battles. The Manor made clear that shadowspawn alone were useless against even a few dozen battle-trained channelers, even if that same force likely would have been enough to say overrun..

That is one of my least favourite justifications. We can suspect anything we like but we cannot justify a scene based on an argument that "RJ would have done it better/in a way I would like".

I find the whole manor scene to be quite ruinous to the sense of peril and to have 100,000 shadowspawn so obviously made mince meat of in such a...contemptuous...manner negates any threat they have.

I am not arguing that channelers didnt do amazing feats in the earlier books. They did so there is no need to point that out. I am arguing that the scene in question is just plain bad and overall has no purpose.

So far the defenders of this thing use the following responses "clearly in the books channelers are much stronger than regular enemies" and "the scene shows us that the dark forces(christ, I must go play that game again) need channelers".

If it is clear that channelers are much stronger why do we need an emasculating battle to demonstrate it? The simple answer is we do not. The scene is one of the worst in the series in my opinion but if others feel it is a worthy and useful part of the books, who am I to argue?

fionwe1987
03-01-2015, 05:08 PM
If the critique is mainly about the futility of Shadow-tactics (not that we don't see problems elsewhere), but ceratinly if such a force could have been risen, it certainly is an indictment of the strategic vision of Demandred and the others that they did not simply release scattered, smaller, hordes of trollocs with Myrddraal throughout all the lands to sow chaos and fear amongst the common denizens of the countryside. Not only would the fear and chaos be useful in of itself for creating instability, but it would have seriously infringed upon the ability of the Light to concentrate its forces as each land would have desired to protect its own citizenry. As it was, most common people never would have experienced any effects from either TG or the devastation caused by the DO (by contrast many more would have experienced first-hand the effects of the Seanchan conquest and the Shaido diaspora), except for the weather. TG really seemed to be experienced only by Saldaeans, the Andorans (especially those living in Caemlyn, and the soldiers who were at Merrilor. It's hard to imagine it having the same psychological impact even as the Trolloc Wars, which seems odd.
I agree. And conversely, the Light's strategy is also pretty moronic. Concentrate all the Aes Sedai in one single front? Not only should Rand have pointed out the flaw in that, anyone who knew how the Trolloc Wars were fought would have pointed out that it made more sense for the Aes Sedai, and all other channelers, to be evenly split on the four fronts. And Rand, and the Aes Sedai too, should have been able to anticipate that Graendal or someone would mess with the General's minds via Dreamwalking. All they needed was one Aes Sedai at their side to ward their dreams.

The way it was done, the Aes Sedai front begged for a giant attack from the Shadow, and they got it, to their great loss.

Plus, the entire point of the efficacy of circles was botched. Early on, Egwene says her Aes Sedai are not in circles because the point was to be purely destructive, and multiple attacks were better than concentrated attacked for this. This makes no sense, of course, and the Aes Sedai have already shown the great flexibility and destructive power their circles give them, both at Salidar when there was a bubble of evil, and against the Seanchan.

But then they completely reversed this by showing Demandred lead a circle of 72. And even in the face of that, the Aes Sedai barely form any circles. It was moronic, and undercutting of the power of channeling for convenience.

Frankly, they should have had the Shadow cut off Rand's wards, and use the Ways and/or use Portal Stones to send armies to every major city. That would have made Rand and co. make the difficult choice of letting the people die out and concentrate their forces in a few places where they could do the greatest damage to the Shadow.

Kimon
03-01-2015, 05:46 PM
Frankly, they should have had the Shadow cut off Rand's wards, and use the Ways and/or use Portal Stones to send armies to every major city. That would have made Rand and co. make the difficult choice of letting the people die out and concentrate their forces in a few places where they could do the greatest damage to the Shadow.

I'd hit the cities too, but only after drawing out and scattering their defenders. I'd use the waygates to scatter fists of Trollocs w/Myrddraal through the countryside (heck maybe even letting them run wild w/o myrddraal) just hitting soft targets and eating farmers. The cities would be forced to send out soldiers everywhere to try to defend the peasantry. While they were scattered, i infiltrate the cities with dreadlords and darkfriends, open the waygates and release hordes of trollocs in the cities to feast on the urban populations.

The Chosen in this turning faced a world in a comparative Dark Age from the one from which they had reawoken, yet in this turning they never seemed to achieve even a fraction of the success in their war as they had either in the last full melee, nor even the level of success that the dreadlords had achieved during the Trolloc Wars. With the exception of Taim and Moridin all the Chosen were beyond incompetent.

fionwe1987
03-01-2015, 06:30 PM
The Chosen in this turning faced a world in a comparative Dark Age from the one from which they had reawoken, yet in this turning they never seemed to achieve even a fraction of the success in their war as they had either in the last full melee, nor even the level of success that the dreadlords had achieved during the Trolloc Wars. With the exception of Taim and Moridin all the Chosen were beyond incompetent.

Yes, except I wouldn't quite blame the Chosen for this... :)

Daekyras
03-01-2015, 07:23 PM
The Chosen in this turning faced a world in a comparative Dark Age from the one from which they had reawoken, yet in this turning they never seemed to achieve even a fraction of the success in their war as they had either in the last full melee, nor even the level of success that the dreadlords had achieved during the Trolloc Wars. With the exception of Taim and Moridin all the Chosen were beyond incompetent.

I feel like graendal was the most competent of the chosen.

Moridin/ishamel was effectively hamstringing the other chosen with counter intuitive instructions and the overall plans were his so i dont think he should be given a pass.

Taim was ok but he really shoul have just killed logain.

speaking of which, and not to run down Brandon but my god, Logains pov was terrible. He came across as a conceited a-hole reminiscent of gawyn.

Kimon
03-01-2015, 07:43 PM
I feel like graendal was the most competent of the chosen.

Moridin/ishamel was effectively hamstringing the other chosen with counter intuitive instructions and the overall plans were his so i dont think he should be given a pass.

Taim was ok but he really shoul have just killed logain.

speaking of which, and not to run down Brandon but my god, Logains pov was terrible. He came across as a conceited a-hole reminiscent of gawyn.

Moridin in his defense was looking at the battle from a different perspective than his peers. He recognized that the only part of the battle that really mattered was the one within Rand's psyche. The rest was just a mix of diversion and table-setting for the real struggle. None of the others recognized that. The rest were just petulant and/or sadistic children throwing tantrums.

I agree with you on Logain. Brandon's treatment of his story, and his "glory", bothers me far more than some of the issues that seem to bother many others, such as his clumsy treatment of Mat's personality. Androl does run a close second however.

Daekyras
03-01-2015, 08:09 PM
Moridin in his defense was looking at the battle from a different perspective than his peers. He recognized that the only part of the battle that really mattered was the one within Rand's psyche. The rest was just a mix of diversion and table-setting for the real struggle. None of the others recognized that. The rest were just petulant and/or sadistic children throwing tantrums.

I agree with you on Logain. Brandon's treatment of his story, and his "glory", bothers me far more than some of the issues that seem to bother many others, such as his clumsy treatment of Mat's personality. Androl does run a close second however.

The scene in tGS, just before the band enter hinterstrapp, when Mat talks about "elaborate backstories and aliases" is soooooo wrong. I read it over and over again when the book first came out. And it never got better.

His Mat was off to me but not horribly so but that scene is my second least favourite in the entire series.

Davian93
03-01-2015, 10:58 PM
The scene in tGS, just before the band enter hinterstrapp, when Mat talks about "elaborate backstories and aliases" is soooooo wrong. I read it over and over again when the book first came out. And it never got better.

His Mat was off to me but not horribly so but that scene is my second least favourite in the entire series.

That was utterly painful to read and it was the moment I knew that the series wouldn't end well. Bringing Hinderstrap (sp?) back in the last battle as some sort of backhanded justification (SEE, there was a point...SEE!!!) didn't help.

GonzoTheGreat
03-02-2015, 04:01 AM
Some tips for the Shadow, to use the next time:

-Send a load of Trollocs into Far Madding. They can then first eat the population, and afterwards load the Guardians on a couple of wagons and start a tour of Randland. Such a Trolloc force would be far more difficult to defeat, since channelers wouldn't be much use against it.

-Don't let Demandred go blithely traipsing after the Trollocs once he's crushed the AS army. Instead, have his force attack the Yellows in Mayene.

-Send "small" numbers of Trollocs (say, groups of 10,000 or so) in all directions, preferably by using Portal Stones to transport them. Quite apart from the increase in chaos and instability it causes, it will cause Rand lots of anguish.

-Balefire Dragonmount. Don't know what the exact results would be, but I doubt the Dragon would like it.

Morelikeunwisewoman
03-02-2015, 04:01 AM
The scene in tGS, just before the band enter hinterstrapp, when Mat talks about "elaborate backstories and aliases" is soooooo wrong. I read it over and over again when the book first came out. And it never got better.

His Mat was off to me but not horribly so but that scene is my second least favourite in the entire series.

What is your least favourite scene?

Also, how do you bold something for emphasis?

edit: Hukka, nevermind- I found it.

GonzoTheGreat
03-02-2015, 04:06 AM
Also, how do you bold something for emphasis?
(b)Bold(/b), only with square brackets instead of round ones.

Somewhere at the bottom of the page, you should be able to find something saying "BB code is On" (or Off, whatever you've set in your settings). The "BB code" part there is a link to a list of all the officially supported options available to us.

Daekyras
03-02-2015, 04:31 AM
What is your least favourite scene?

Also, how do you bold something for emphasis?

edit: Hukka, nevermind- I found it.

That's an easy one- anything involving faile....:)

But seriously, my least favourite scene is the silly and completely pointless Shadar Haran dominance of the female chosen. I found it distasteful in the extreme and the implication of rape was a step too far.

If I wanted to read tripe like that I'd look up Goodkind, Terry.

Hugh the Hand
03-02-2015, 08:36 AM
Tactics:

First, we must ask, who was leading the overall Shadow Forces, and what was their plan?

Ishy?

Dem?

The DO?

If it was the DO, then I think he just did not understand how humans work, big shock.

If it was Ishy, he saw the LB as the one between Rand and the DO. The clash of armies was a delaying tactic and maybe a way to cause him pain. He wanted Rand at the Bore.
Now sending more forces over a larger area would have brought more anguish to Rand and the Light, but again Ishy was not a general, right?

Now if it was Demodred, spelling, you must remember what he wanted. He did not care about the fight between Rand and the DO, if he even knew about it, he did not care about the suffering of the people, he only cared about beating the Dragon on HIS terms.

He wanted a large pitched battle where he could show who was the better man. He wanted a dual in the field and in person. He was obviously crazy at this point and did not care about anything but beating the Dragon.

The Shadow lost when Ravin, Sammy, Belal, Balthamel, or heck even Mesaana, died. They were more big picture leaders.

By the way, we know they used the Ways, but how? Did not the Black Wind kill Shadowspawn? Was this addressed?

One last point on tactics, on the Light side, I think they tried to keep forces that work together, well together, hence the AS in one battle the Boarderlanders in one etc. This is a sound strategy, as those forces that know each other will work better together. This was not one army it was many fighting for one cause.

That being said, I would have spread the AS and the loyal Ashamen around.

GonzoTheGreat
03-02-2015, 11:16 AM
On the one hand, letting forces that work well together fight on each other's side does make sense.
On the other hand, if you have infantry, artillery and cavalry, then separating those three and letting them each fight their own fight makes a lot less sense.

During the early stages of Lan's campaign, a couple of dozen of the Band's Dragons could have helped enormously in keeping Trollocs from overrunning Tarwin's Gap.
Having a fairly large force of channelers on standby to intervene wherever needed would make a lot of sense; that way they might have managed killing Taim when Rand confronted him at Tarwin's Gap.
Egwene could have used a substantial cavalry force in the early stages of her campaign; her AS could disrupt/destroy large formationations, and the cavalry could then have obliterated lots of individual Shadowspawn.

On the other hand, there were some tensions between various units, so keeping them apart at least at first may not have been the worst option.

fionwe1987
03-02-2015, 12:55 PM
Egwene could have used a substantial cavalry force in the early stages of her campaign; her AS could disrupt/destroy large formationations, and the cavalry could then have obliterated lots of individual Shadowspawn.

Yeah, she had one, they just forgot about it. Bryne hired Uno to create heavy cavalry units in the model of Shienar (who had the best of those) for the Rebel Army, and was successful. Then they disappeared, more or less.

Kimon
03-02-2015, 03:50 PM
On the one hand, letting forces that work well together fight on each other's side does make sense.
On the other hand, if you have infantry, artillery and cavalry, then separating those three and letting them each fight their own fight makes a lot less sense.

During the early stages of Lan's campaign, a couple of dozen of the Band's Dragons could have helped enormously in keeping Trollocs from overrunning Tarwin's Gap.
Having a fairly large force of channelers on standby to intervene wherever needed would make a lot of sense; that way they might have managed killing Taim when Rand confronted him at Tarwin's Gap.
Egwene could have used a substantial cavalry force in the early stages of her campaign; her AS could disrupt/destroy large formationations, and the cavalry could then have obliterated lots of individual Shadowspawn.

On the other hand, there were some tensions between various units, so keeping them apart at least at first may not have been the worst option.

Maybe Mat had read the Trachenberg Plan in a prior life...

Not that Demandred would have necessarily recognized and seized an opportunity to pick off the scrubs.

Davian93
03-02-2015, 04:11 PM
Maybe Mat had read the Trachenberg Plan in a prior life...

Not that Demandred would have necessarily recognized and seized an opportunity to pick off the scrubs.

Has there ever been a more impressive commanding general than Napoleon? His mere presence on the battlefield completely altered everything around him. His enemies were terrified of him to the point of assuming he would always win even when the odds were stacked against him. And he had a really good run of it too.

Same with a guy like Alexander I suppose.

Daekyras
03-02-2015, 04:17 PM
Has there ever been a more impressive commanding general than Napoleon? His mere presence on the battlefield completely altered everything around him. His enemies were terrified of him to the point of assuming he would always win even when the odds were stacked against him. And he had a really good run of it too.

Same with a guy like Alexander I suppose.

Parmenion.

Kimon
03-02-2015, 04:22 PM
Has there ever been a more impressive commanding general than Napoleon? His mere presence on the battlefield completely altered everything around him. His enemies were terrified of him to the point of assuming he would always win even when the odds were stacked against him. And he had a really good run of it too.

Same with a guy like Alexander I suppose.

Philip was the better general in that father-son pairing. Hannibal and Sulla also deserve some mention.

Davian93
03-02-2015, 04:23 PM
Parmenion.

To be fair, he was more akin to Davout or Ney was for Napoleon than at the level of a Napoleon or Alexander.

A brilliant subordinate which is critically important in such a situation. One of Napoleon (or Alexander's) greatest strengths was both identifying great subordinates and then inspiring them to fight for them and be loyal to the death.

Davian93
03-02-2015, 04:25 PM
Philip was the better general in that father-son pairing. Hannibal and Sulla also deserve some mention.

That's debatable. Sure, the plans to invade Asia were originally Phillips but Alexander is the one that actually carried it out and he is the one who had the world-changing vision to actually accomplish the impossible.


I would put Belisarius up there too...as well as Caesar. Caesar's campaign in Gaul was brilliantly conceived and executed.

Davian93
03-02-2015, 04:29 PM
On a side note, am I the only one that always associates Gareth Bryne with Arthur Wellesley? I don't know if RJ ever said something along those lines but that's always been the connection I made in my mind.

Probably one of the greatest defensive commanders in history if not the very best.

Of course, I also do the same with Agelmar for some reason.

Kimon
03-02-2015, 04:33 PM
That's debatable. Sure, the plans to invade Asia were originally Phillips but Alexander is the one that actually carried it out and he is the one who had the world-changing vision to actually accomplish the impossible.


I would put Belisarius up there too...as well as Caesar. Caesar's campaign in Gaul was brilliantly conceived and executed.

Alexander or Philip is a similar debate to Caesar or Sulla. All four were great, and along with Hannibal probably the five finest generals (Themistokles and Kimon as honorable mentions) of antiquity. I'd give the nod to Philip because he took Epaminondas' basic tactics and improved upon them and made the Macedonian army into an unstoppable force. Building Macedon from backwoods hillbillies into the greatest super-power the world had yet seen in such a short time is more impressive even than what Alexander did with the army and alliance that fell into his lap. Likewise, i'd argue that Caesar never gets the brilliant idea on how to take Alesia without studying Sulla's tactics and strategy from the Social and Mithridatic Wars.

Davian93
03-02-2015, 04:38 PM
That's a great point on Caesar and Sulla. Its even more interesting when you think about how obsessed Caesar was with equaling Alexander's accomplishments and knowing that he would never come close to doing so.

Phillip did build that army from nothing, but I don't know that Phillip would ever have taken them to the banks of the Indus like his son ended up doing. Granted, Alexander may have overreached in doing so but its impossible to say given his early death. Would his empire have held together if he had had another 20-30 years to rule and had an heir grow to maturity? Would he have started to face rebellions everywhere as is wont to happen with such a creation? I could easily see a situation where the Greek cities rebelled if he had kept ruling from Asia as well as seeing Egypt and the rest of the Levant pulling away too. Hell, his own Macedonians were already pulling away due to his actions near the end. Of course, I could also see him quickly crushing such rebellions but its impossible to say.

Kimon
03-02-2015, 04:51 PM
Phillip did build that army from nothing, but I don't know that Phillip would ever have taken them to the banks of the Indus like his son ended up doing. Granted, Alexander may have overreached in doing so but its impossible to say given his early death. Would his empire have held together if he had had another 20-30 years to rule and had an heir grow to maturity? Would he have started to face rebellions everywhere as is wont to happen with such a creation? I could easily see a situation where the Greek cities rebelled if he had kept ruling from Asia as well as seeing Egypt and the rest of the Levant pulling away too. Hell, his own Macedonians were already pulling away due to his actions near the end. Of course, I could also see him quickly crushing such rebellions but its impossible to say.

Philip was planning the invasion because he recognized that without it that holding together the League of Corinth would be impossible. It would have happened. Would he have gone to the Indus? I doubt it. Had he crossed over, I have no doubt that the Persians would have been in just as much trouble against him as they were against his son. Would Philip however have felt the need to take Tyre, wasting months in besieging a largely strategically unimportant port without naval support? Probably not. Would he have felt the need to claim himself as a god? Probably not. But then, Alexander hated his father. That's why he and Olympias had Philip killed, and why he claimed to be the son of Zeus-Ammon even though it pissed off so many of Philip's loyal Macedonian soldiers - most infamously seen with the incidents involving Cleitus the Black and Aristotle's nephew Kallisthenes.

Still a great general, just not quite as great, at least of a statesman, as Philip.

Rand al'Fain
03-02-2015, 09:47 PM
Philip was planning the invasion because he recognized that without it that holding together the League of Corinth would be impossible. It would have happened. Would he have gone to the Indus? I doubt it. Had he crossed over, I have no doubt that the Persians would have been in just as much trouble against him as they were against his son. Would Philip however have felt the need to take Tyre, wasting months in besieging a largely strategically unimportant port without naval support? Probably not. Would he have felt the need to claim himself as a god? Probably not. But then, Alexander hated his father. That's why he and Olympias had Philip killed, and why he claimed to be the son of Zeus-Ammon even though it pissed off so many of Philip's loyal Macedonian soldiers - most infamously seen with the incidents involving Cleitus the Black and Aristotle's nephew Kallisthenes.

Still a great general, just not quite as great, at least of a statesman, as Philip.

Well, by the time Alexander died, I don't think he was quite sane/mentally healthy at that point judging by his actions leading up to there.

There is an old saying, "There's a fine line between brilliance and madness." And it looks like he crossed that line at some point. Whether it was mental stress of some sort, mental disease, or poison/drugs of some sort, is up for debate. But he was only 33 when he died.

Kimon
03-02-2015, 10:19 PM
Well, by the time Alexander died, I don't think he was quite sane/mentally healthy at that point judging by his actions leading up to there.

There is an old saying, "There's a fine line between brilliance and madness." And it looks like he crossed that line at some point. Whether it was mental stress of some sort, mental disease, or poison/drugs of some sort, is up for debate. But he was only 33 when he died.

The semi-divinity claims likely were prompted more out of carefully crafted propaganda than actual belief/delusion, but there are definitely a litany of disturbing incidents in his short life...

-the aforementioned murder of Cleitus the Black
-the execution of Kallisthenes
-the massacre precipitated by the theft of his horse, Bucephalus
-his offering up of the Kossaeans as human-sacrifices to the shade of the recently dead Hephaestion
-his forcing Lysimachus to fight a lion in hand-to-paw combat for being uppity
-the death march through the wasteland of Gedrosia (he killed tens of thousands just in an attempt to prove it could be done)

Rand al'Fain
03-02-2015, 10:27 PM
Well, back to the whole actors thing. What about Oded Fehr as Lan? If you ever watched The Mummy or The Mummy Returns, you'd recognize him as Ardeth Bay, the Medjai Leader and companion/friend to the main characters.

While Liam Neeson has played the "badass fighter" countless times, I think he's just a bit too advanced in years to play a part like Lan.

Daekyras
03-03-2015, 05:40 AM
Well, back to the whole actors thing. What about Oded Fehr as Lan? If you ever watched The Mummy or The Mummy Returns, you'd recognize him as Ardeth Bay, the Medjai Leader and companion/friend to the main characters.

While Liam Neeson has played the "badass fighter" countless times, I think he's just a bit too advanced in years to play a part like Lan.

Liam neeson is far too old. He has to have a relationship with Nynaeve who is what? 22-26???

Hugh the Hand
03-03-2015, 07:20 AM
There is a strong argument that Hannibal was really not that great.

His invasion of Italy might have cost Carthage the war. It was doomed to fail and he never really threatened Rome itself.

Cannae was a great victory over a poor general. But in the end he had no idea how to win the war.

It is said that victors write the history, well Scipio's family commissioned the history we have of Hannibal, and what would make you more famous, defeating an average general that tried to take elephants across the Alps, or Hannibal the Great! the greatest general since Alexander!

Again, like anything in the Books, and thing in fiction, greatest Bond Movie, or villain, strongest Marvel hero, etc, it is debatable how good Hannibal was.

Davian93
03-03-2015, 08:44 AM
Liam neeson is far too old. He has to have a relationship with Nynaeve who is what? 22-26???

Neeson would have been perfect at 45 instead of his current 62.

Daekyras
03-03-2015, 02:03 PM
Neeson would have been perfect at 45 instead of his current 62.

On a semi-connected note. Am I the only one who pictures michelle pfeifer when they think of moiraine?

Terez
03-03-2015, 03:03 PM
No, that connection was on RJ's list.

Kimon
03-03-2015, 04:37 PM
There is a strong argument that Hannibal was really not that great.

His invasion of Italy might have cost Carthage the war. It was doomed to fail and he never really threatened Rome itself.

Cannae was a great victory over a poor general. But in the end he had no idea how to win the war.

It is said that victors write the history, well Scipio's family commissioned the history we have of Hannibal, and what would make you more famous, defeating an average general that tried to take elephants across the Alps, or Hannibal the Great! the greatest general since Alexander!

Again, like anything in the Books, and thing in fiction, greatest Bond Movie, or villain, strongest Marvel hero, etc, it is debatable how good Hannibal was.

Polybius is arguably the second greatest historian the world has ever produced, certainly the second greatest that antiquity produced (in both cases second to Thucydides). To suggest that he was merely a biased propagandist of the Scipios is ridiculous. Scipio was not half the general that Hannibal was, which is clear from Ploybius' account. He destroyed every army that Rome sent against him. It was't just Cannae, Trebia and Trasimene also stand as examples of his brilliant and innovative tactics. Scipio finally defeated him at Zama, but it wasn't because he was a better general, it was because the Romans bribed the Numidians into starting a rebellion that forced him to abandon his Italian campaign and return to Africa. It was money that defeated Hannibal. As for threatening Rome, Brennus, whose Celtic horde sacked Rome in 387 BC, showed that sacking Rome wasn't enough to defeat them. Hannibal's strategy relied upon winning over the other Italian cities and use them against Rome. The problem that plan created was that the more success he had, the more territory he had to defend, the more capital he bled away. He simply didn't have enough money to outspend the Romans. The fact that his memory continued to haunt them should be proof enough. This was not mere propaganda. If you were making this argument about Scipio Africanus or Pyrrhus, then you'd have a point. Not with Hannibal.

The argument isn't if he is over-rated, it's who is the greatest general in all of history - him, or Napoleon.

Hugh the Hand
03-03-2015, 06:20 PM
This is not the forum for this, but we will just need to disagree.

there are many modern historians that have the same thoughts as me, proof is i am not smart enough to think of them myself!

Davian93
03-03-2015, 06:20 PM
To his credit, Cannae is still taught and will likely continue to be taught in military colleges for the rest of our existence due to the brilliance Hannibal displayed there.

Kimon
03-03-2015, 07:57 PM
This is not the forum for this, but we will just need to disagree.

there are many modern historians that have the same thoughts as me, proof is i am not smart enough to think of them myself!

How is it proof, if you can't think of who these nebulous historians are?

Mind you, it is possible that there are historians out there who question both how skilled of a general Hannibal was, and, even more alarming, how credible of a historian Polybius was. But any historian who would make both of those assertions likely is not a particularly credible source.

Rand al'Fain
03-03-2015, 08:04 PM
To expand on what was said about Hannibal;
He could win battles, but not wars. Like Cannae, he was outnumbered 2:1 by the Romans, and absolutely slaughtered them. I think of the 80,000 or so Roman troops, only 10,000 or so survived. Out of Hannibal's 40,000 he had about 30,000 left. While basically unchallenged in the field, he did not have enough troops left to capture Rome, but Rome did not have the troops (at the time, since most of them were slaughtered) to challenge him.

Kimon
03-03-2015, 08:19 PM
To expand on what was said about Hannibal;
He could win battles, but not wars. Like Cannae, he was outnumbered 2:1 by the Romans, and absolutely slaughtered them. I think of the 80,000 or so Roman troops, only 10,000 or so survived. Out of Hannibal's 40,000 he had about 30,000 left. While basically unchallenged in the field, he did not have enough troops left to capture Rome, but Rome did not have the troops (at the time, since most of them were slaughtered) to challenge him.

Trebia and Trasimene were nearly as bad for the Romans. At Trebia the Romans also outnumbered him, far less than 2-1, but the Romans losses were nearly complete. Almost 30,000 of the about 42,000 at the start of the battle. Hannibal had nearly 30,000 and lost around 4-5000. It was a massacre, where he used the terrain to brilliantly bait them into a slaughter. At Trasimene he had the Romans outnumbered, but the numeric difference here doesn't matter, it was the trap that he set using the lake and the fog. It resulted in another massacre with about half of the Roman force lost, including their commander. And then there was Cannae. Managing an encircling when outnumbered more than 2-1 is impressive, and in terms of scale, the only other Roman defeat that was comparable was the Battle of Orange (also called Arausio) against the Cimbri.

There is a reason why the list doesn't include many other battles, because the Romans resorted to Fabius Cunctator's strategy of avoiding Hannibal in the field, instead hitting his supply lines and lieutenants and waiting him out - essentially the same strategy used much later in history against Napoleon.

Daekyras
03-04-2015, 12:31 AM
No, that connection was on RJ's list.

I meant that she is who I always picture. From day 1 reading the novels. Not just when im imagining casting.

Kimon
03-04-2015, 06:41 AM
I meant that she is who I always picture. From day 1 reading the novels. Not just when im imagining casting.

Wrong hair color would be an easy fix, but she's also 5'7". That's just too tall for Moiraine. Mila Kunis?

Daekyras
03-04-2015, 06:51 AM
Wrong hair color would be an easy fix, but she's also 5'7". That's just too tall for Moiraine. Mila Kunis?

Too young, too tanned and an insufferably bad actress.

Davian93
03-04-2015, 06:52 AM
There is a reason why the list doesn't include many other battles, because the Romans resorted to Fabius Cunctator's strategy of avoiding Hannibal in the field, instead hitting his supply lines and lieutenants and waiting him out - essentially the same strategy used much later in history against Napoleon.

They goaded Hannibal into invading Russia for some insane reason?!? Damn those Romans!

GonzoTheGreat
03-04-2015, 07:03 AM
They goaded Hannibal into invading Russia for some insane reason?!? Damn those Romans!
Technically it was Armenia at the time, but I'm sure that Putin will be willing to point out that that's always been part of Russia.

Davian93
03-04-2015, 07:30 AM
Technically it was Armenia at the time, but I'm sure that Putin will be willing to point out that that's always been part of Russia.

That reminds me of the original Star Trek where Chekov would always joke/claim that everything was invented in Russia despite it obviously not being that way.

Up there with the ST6 quote from Christopher Plummer: "You have not experienced Shakespeare until you've heard it in its original Klingon".

Hugh the Hand
03-04-2015, 08:01 AM
Again, perhaps Hannibal was a brilliant field or battle general, but lacking in big picture qualities. Alexander had a vision and accomplished it. Napoleon got pretty close.

Cannea was brilliant, that cannot be denied!

fionwe1987
03-04-2015, 12:43 PM
How in the world did a WoT TV series discussion become a Western-centric discussion of generals?

Davian93
03-04-2015, 01:04 PM
How in the world did a WoT TV series discussion become a Western-centric discussion of generals?

Welcome to Theoryland

Hugh the Hand
03-04-2015, 01:54 PM
try the punch.

Kimon
03-04-2015, 03:52 PM
Again, perhaps Hannibal was a brilliant field or battle general, but lacking in big picture qualities. Alexander had a vision and accomplished it. Napoleon got pretty close.

Cannea was brilliant, that cannot be denied!

Alexander didn't so much have a clear vision or goal to accomplish as a unquenchable hunger for conquest. He never bothered to stop and consolidate, never stopped trying to push beyond what could feasibly be held. Going into India was foolish, and the results demonstrated that, yet his generals still had difficulty making him see that, and only with great difficulty convinced him to turn back to Babylon. And once in Babylon he began plans to turn those armies west and conquer Italy. It was an addiction more than a clear vision. There is a reason why what he built collapsed so quickly. Only Ptolemy of his successors really recognized the importance of biting off a manageable chunk and cultivating it rather than biting off so much that you couldn help but choke.

That doesn't make him a bad general, but it should point out a theme. Alexander is far from the only of these names that we have mentioned that didn't know when to stop...

GonzoTheGreat
03-05-2015, 03:33 AM
That doesn't make him a bad general, but it should point out a theme. Alexander is far from the only of these names that we have mentioned that didn't know when to stop...
Which, of course, is not a problem if you're a Forsaken who has been told by the DO "conquer the world". Come to think of it, for Ishamael consolidation was a pretty moot point too.

yks 6nnetu hing
03-05-2015, 04:50 AM
That doesn't make him a bad general, but it should point out a theme. Alexander is far from the only of these names that we have mentioned that didn't know when to stop...

On that note, I much prefer the Habsburg expansion model: marriages. In general, much less bloody.

Though, it must be said: once a certain amount of marriages has taken place, one should bring new blood into the following generations or you'll end up like Charles II of Spain.

Daekyras
03-05-2015, 05:04 AM
On that note, I much prefer the Habsburg expansion model: marriages. In general, much less bloody.

Though, it must be said: once a certain amount of marriages has taken place, one should bring new blood into the following generations or you'll end up like Charles II of Spain.

Spanish? Nooooooooo!!!!1

GonzoTheGreat
03-05-2015, 05:40 AM
On that note, I much prefer the Habsburg expansion model: marriages. In general, much less bloody.
Unless the mother in law is a de Medici (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Bartholomew%27s_Day_massacre).

yks 6nnetu hing
03-05-2015, 05:49 AM
Unless the mother in law is a de Medici (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Bartholomew%27s_Day_massacre).

mm, yes. Quite possibly the Original Red Wedding.

oh, look, we're back at TV series!