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View Full Version : TGH re-read: Why Falme?


isamu237
03-27-2015, 01:02 AM
I don't think I've ever had this thought before, but it's been nagging me since this latest reread.

What was the point of pushing Rand to Falme? Fain is obviously directing him there, but Ishy seems to be as well when he brags about the threads he's put in place. Now the Seanchan being there makes perfect sense (two dooms indeed), but what advantage was there for Rand being there as opposed to anywhere else?
Especially befuddling is this seems to be the plan from the beginning with the Dark Prophecy in Fal Dara pointing and prodding toward Falme. Moreover, Lanfear may be doing the same when she brags "Ishamael thinks he controls events, but I do." [First Claiming].
But I still don't see the point from the Dark perspective. Was the idea that Rand would be in a weak position to be defeated or turned? How so when it doesn't seem like Ishy had any high ranking DFs in place to direct events? Was this just some deus ex machina prophecy and ta'verenness?
It's not a major question, just something nagging me.

Terez
03-27-2015, 03:05 AM
I don't think I've ever had this thought before, but it's been nagging me since this latest reread.

What was the point of pushing Rand to Falme? Fain is obviously directing him there, but Ishy seems to be as well when he brags about the threads he's put in place. Now the Seanchan being there makes perfect sense (two dooms indeed), but what advantage was there for Rand being there as opposed to anywhere else?
Especially befuddling is this seems to be the plan from the beginning with the Dark Prophecy in Fal Dara pointing and prodding toward Falme.
Ishamael believed that the Dark Prophecies pointed to victory for the Dark One so he probably believed that all the elements had to be fulfilled toward that purpose. It gets a little more complicated when Fain is considered. He was freed, so clearly it was believed he was still batting for Team Dark, but the Fade he was with clearly had orders to take the Horn toward the Blight. Rand would have been expected to follow the Horn, but Mordeth wanted to go to the Seanchan and try to build a power base, so Fain, wanting to kill Rand and yet compelled by Mordeth, told Rand to meet him on Toman Head. So if this is part of Ishamael's plan, why order the Fade to take the Horn to the Blight?

Another possibility is that Ishamael didn't have any particular intention for Rand to go there and he just wanted to make it look like it was his idea. But that doesn't seem to fit with Carridin's orders, which definitely had a bit of prophecy in them - probably the fruit of Ishamael's Dreaming. On some level Ishamael knew the Horn would be blown in Carridin's vicinity, and he told Carridin to keep an eye out for the boys. He could have told everyone that individually, but there's all the rest.

So, in my mind, the only truly jarring detail is the Fade's attempt to bring the Horn toward the Blight. That might make sense, if this was Shaidar Haran 1.0, and he figured out some time after the escape from Fal Dara that there was something wrong with Fain, and thus tried to compel Fain toward Shayol Ghul where he could be dealt with more easily. Fain eventually overpowered and killed him, but he was remade/reborn in a new version later.

GonzoTheGreat
03-27-2015, 05:58 AM
It may be that Ishamael had initially intended to have the Horn delivered to him in the Blight, and then wanted to take it to Falme himself. Doesn't explain why he didn't Travel to the first camp site of the Shadow group to pick the thing up himself, of course. Nor why he didn't Travel into Siuan's chamber in Fal Dara without bothering with the whole complicated scheme, for that matter. Maybe he was still getting over the confrontation at the Eye, though, so his doctor may not have allowed him such strenuous activity.
Fain may have learned about this intended confrontation between the Shadow and the Dragon, and decided that was a good opportunity to stab both in the back while they were fighting each other.

SomeOneElse
03-27-2015, 06:49 AM
another question is why didn't Ishy steal the Horn from seanchan be4 Rand & Co was there. That would take a moment because it seems like he is free from the bore at that point already. So he didn't probably want the Horn or couldn't make use of it or whatever.

Hugh the Hand
03-27-2015, 10:48 AM
Very fair points.

I think this is all part of the RJ's explanation, that evil is dumb. it is simplistic, but the only way you can explain a lot of this.

As it turns out the horn could only summon heroes to help the light, so the DF's having it might not have been an issue.

It was needed in the last battle, but whatever...

Maybe the Dark would have used it hoping it would help them, and bam! they help the light.

all that being said, Ishy was crazy. and I am not sure he was fully healed for most of Book.

Something was happening at Flame, and he did try to get the Super-Girls taken from there to Seachen, so he did have a plan for the place.

SomeOneElse
03-27-2015, 12:28 PM
It was needed in the last battle, but whatever...

Although nothing suggests that, but maybe they would also want to destroy the Horn at all and that should be possible with the OP or TP.

Hugh the Hand
03-27-2015, 01:56 PM
well it was needed at the bore, or the last hunt would have crushed the Light. Mat might have won without.

And I think the Horn is older than the last age, and might be hard to destroy.

Plus it was in the prophesy

SomeOneElse
03-27-2015, 02:43 PM
And I think the Horn is older than the last age, and might be hard to destroy.

Probably not any harder then cuendillar but that could require a lot of time. At least if it was at Shayol Ghul that might be harder for the light to get hands on it.

fionwe1987
03-27-2015, 05:58 PM
Terez:

It may be that Ishy wanted the Horn at Shayol Ghul, and intended to draw Rand away from his Hunt by showing him images of Egwene and Nynaeve captured (those would have been Liandrin/Alviarin's orders at the Social). But when he learned of Fain not obeying orders and heading towards Falme, he let things be with the visions, though he let Egwene and Nynaeve be captured anyway to deprive Rand of any allies (he already knew of Egwene "watching over" Rand, after all).

Its also possible he suspected that the Dark Prophesy refers to Egwene, not Lanfear (I've made the case elsewhere before), and wanted her to be eliminated anyway. Eliminating the future Amyrlin by having her captured by the Seanchan allows them to use her to bring down the Shining Walls, thus letting the Prophesy be fulfilled, but with an outcome more palatable to the Shadow.

GonzoTheGreat
03-28-2015, 06:10 AM
And I think the Horn is older than the last age, and might be hard to destroy.
Throw it into the Pit of Doom, and whether or not that destroys it seems a rather moot point. Even if it is just lying on the bottom there, who is going to fish it out again?

fionwe1987
03-28-2015, 10:33 AM
Throw it into the Pit of Doom, and whether or not that destroys it seems a rather moot point. Even if it is just lying on the bottom there, who is going to fish it out again?

But what happens when the Dark One needs to fart?

isamu237
03-29-2015, 01:06 PM
But what happens when the Dark One needs to fart?

A little coffee just came out my nose...

isamu237
03-29-2015, 02:30 PM
The more I think on it, the more I think the "confusion," so to speak, of Falme must come from competing agendas. Lanfear does brag that she's manipulating things when Ishy thinks he's pulling the strings, and she does pop right up immediately, so I think she's trying to push Rand into proclaiming himself; maybe even getting a big victory because a powerful hero is much more fun to dangle off your arm than just some dude.

SomeOneElse
03-30-2015, 04:19 AM
The more I think on it, the more I think the "confusion," so to speak, of Falme must come from competing agendas. Lanfear does brag that she's manipulating things when Ishy thinks he's pulling the strings, and she does pop right up immediately, so I think she's trying to push Rand into proclaiming himself; maybe even getting a big victory because a powerful hero is much more fun to dangle off your arm than just some dude.
Then she would be fine with Moirain's plan of Rand going to Illian with the horn and proclaiming himself there. It would make him much more a "hero".
She rather did have no impact on anything (like it was most time with her) and was just, as you've said, bragging about manipulating smth or whatever.

Hugh the Hand
03-30-2015, 11:24 AM
You know, funny you mention Moirain's plan.

That is proof again she was one of the few competent AS in the books.

She HAD a plan! And honestly, it made perfect sense from her point of view. She had no idea about the Aiel, so she wanted Rand to start by building a colilition behind him.

He would have shown up in Illian held up the Horn and won that nation. Next, marched with that army behind him to tear, pulled the Sword out and bam! Two of the more powerful nations behind him. At the same time Suian as the Mommy AS would have starting talking to the other nations saying, hey this is our guy.

It would have worked, but for the Forsaken controlling those countries, Suian being deposed, and oh yeah the Pattern.

But from her Point of View, it made perfect sense.

A second example of her ability, is when the above falls apart, she does not give up, well actually she does, she realizes that the Pattern does not care for mice nor men and she helps to guide the boat that is Rand down the rapids that is the Pattern. So she does give up fighting it and finds a better plan.

SomeOneElse
03-30-2015, 11:57 AM
Hm looks like a big fan of Moirain is here, I never said she wasn't competent or her plan was bad (actually I've just said Lanfear would be fine with that plan and let it go rather then this Falme thing). And yes Moirain always had a plan, good or bad but she had, if not these ta'veren things and prophecies I'm almost sure she would have success.

You know, funny you mention Moirain's plan.

No, why?

fionwe1987
03-30-2015, 02:36 PM
It is unclear if Siuan would have been deposed had Moiraine's plan worked.