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View Full Version : Sam: a louse or RJ's failure


SomeOneElse
03-31-2015, 04:02 PM
First of all I am of course not going 2 bash RJ or even do anything like that, but no one is perfect though RJ was one of those being close to that.

But reffering to that famous Sammael and his death, it looks like that particular character started getting out of hands. He was proclaimed (not by himself) as one of the best generals of the WOP thus he should be familiar with strategy and other things. Also we must admit that Rand beat every single forsaken with some one's help (Moirain, Nyn+Moggy) or just luck. He actually won against Asmo but he was the weakest amongst them. Plus he was in "no-balefire" mode because of Cadsuane, so he couldn't permanently kill Sam meaning he shall pop up during TG or be4 which is more likely.
And now I'm going to say that Sam was "too cool" and RJ simply didn't know what to do with him, I mean how would Rand defeat him at all.
As I've stated Sam had some idea about doing battles and thus he simply wouldn't go to Shadar Logoth. Why? Because that's simply pointless. SL is one of the few places where Troloks couldn't operate because of Mashadar. Well they can, but they're under a continuous thread in that place. Sam had some idea about Mashadar (or he wouldn't go there) thus he should know it was very ruff with trollocs so he again won't go there. Also I can hardly remember trollocs being able to kill a channeler.
Secondly, I don't think Mashadar could be any dangerous to some one using the OP. Well, you can say, but it killed Sam. Yes, but how? - I have no idea. Mashadar, as we know, produced some silver light, plus Sam was aware of it and should know that it could harm him as well as Rand. That time when he was killed he was looking for Rand and not to just say "hey bro" but rather to fight him, so he should already have some weaves ready. We know that channelers could work very fast especially when they're in ready-mode, so, combining it with the fact Mashadar produces light, we must say that Sam should be able to defend himself for sure. So I have no logical reason why he didn't do so.

As for Sam being a louse. Well, maybe he was, but not more then most forsaken and less then some of them. Ofc RJ, as the creator, knew better, but I cannot agree with that when reading the books.

So what do you guys think?

Davian93
03-31-2015, 04:26 PM
Nah, he just fell into the classic bad guy mistake of planning an overly elaborate death for his enemy rather than just killing him immediately in Illian.

I'm surprised that he didn't have a pit full of sharks with lasers attached to their heads in the main square of Shadar Logoth actually....or some sort of overly slow laser cutting device to finish Rand off.

Smart bad guy..."Hmm, I think I'll just ward Illian to unleash a shit ton of balefire the moment another male channeler appears."

Nah...lets play hide and seek with the most powerful channeler to ever live so he can die "at the sight of one of his other accomplishments" or whatever that stupid explanation was in the books.

GonzoTheGreat
04-01-2015, 04:35 AM
Plus he was in "no-balefire" mode because of Cadsuane, so he couldn't permanently kill Sam meaning he shall pop up during TG or be4 which is more likely.
He was not very much in no-balefire mode, though, seeing as how he (and Moridin) used that on Mashadar just a few minutes earlier.

And the Trollocs that Sammael had brought into Shadar Logoth weren't meant to kill Rand, they were merely meant to make him channel, so that Sammael could easily pinpoint his location. The Trollocs were bait, not hunters, no matter what they themselves thought.

TSignus
08-30-2015, 09:46 AM
You're missing something key though. Sammael was still under the "don't kill Rand" order. He was trying to set Rand up in a situation where he would get himself killed (presumably by Mashadar) so Sammael could say it wasn't his fault, Rand just came after him and got killed.

Also, as far as Sammael's death, the key thing here was Rand's use of balefire to kill Liah. Remember the chain of events. He sees Sammael waiting for him in the square, which is empty of Mashadar. He then hears Liah's scream as Mashadar grabs her. Rand then balefires her which makes it so she was never there, and therefore Mashadar never went after her. Since she was never there, that meant Mashadar would have gone after Sammael again. That's why when Rand looks back, he sees that the entire square where Sammael was standing is filled with Mashadar. Sammael never had any opportunity to avoid it; one moment the square was empty of Mashadar, the next it was full of it.

GonzoTheGreat
08-30-2015, 10:12 AM
Smart bad guy..."Hmm, I think I'll just ward Illian to unleash a shit ton of balefire the moment another male channeler appears."

Nah...lets play hide and seek with the most powerful channeler to ever live so he can die "at the sight of one of his other accomplishments" or whatever that stupid explanation was in the books.Sammael may have thought one step further: what could Rand do to counter such an obvious move?

Rand could have walked into Illian himself, without channeling. Then some of his Asha'man could have made gateways into Illian, without even going there. Sammael would have sensed this, and, using your scheme, revealed his location by vigorously balefiring bait. Rand then could have exterminated Sammael easily.


You're missing something key though. Sammael was still under the "don't kill Rand" order. He was trying to set Rand up in a situation where he would get himself killed (presumably by Mashadar) so Sammael could say it wasn't his fault, Rand just came after him and got killed.
We do not actually know for sure that Sammael was under such orders. We know that the DO gave somewhat different orders to different Chosen, but we do not know how different those orders were. Demandred never gave much indication of being unwilling to kill Rand either, remember?

And, using another interpretation of the Demandred evidence: it is possible that Sammael would have been willing to kill Rand anyway, even against orders.

BTW: welcome to the board. It's nice to get new viewpoints on these issues.

Daekyras
08-30-2015, 01:02 PM
You're missing something key though. Sammael was still under the "don't kill Rand" order. He was trying to set Rand up in a situation where he would get himself killed (presumably by Mashadar) so Sammael could say it wasn't his fault, Rand just came after him and got killed.

Also, as far as Sammael's death, the key thing here was Rand's use of balefire to kill Liah. Remember the chain of events. He sees Sammael waiting for him in the square, which is empty of Mashadar. He then hears Liah's scream as Mashadar grabs her. Rand then balefires her which makes it so she was never there, and therefore Mashadar never went after her. Since she was never there, that meant Mashadar would have gone after Sammael again. That's why when Rand looks back, he sees that the entire square where Sammael was standing is filled with Mashadar. Sammael never had any opportunity to avoid it; one moment the square was empty of Mashadar, the next it was full of it.

Hole -E - shoot.

I never put that together in my head. Have some rep youngling.

Unless you are just a superior spam bot. In which case rep to your creator.

TSignus
08-30-2015, 09:19 PM
Thanks, Dae. I'm a new poster, but I've been a lurker for a decade or so. I finally got my wife to start reading The Wheel of Time and it inspired me to go back on some of the boards and see what people are discussing.

Gonzo, you're right that Sammael might have had different orders. I sort of assumed that everyone was under a prohibition from killing Rand since in Book 9, Moridin is explicitly asked by Demandred if the "no killing Rand" order is lifted during the Forsaken Coffee Hour (Wonderful News). Moridin basically says, "yes, if you absolutely have to." I'd always assumed this lifting of the prohibition came after Rand accidentally revealed his plan to cleanse Saidin to Dashiva and Torval in Book 8.

I certainly agree that Sammael was trying to kill Rand though, orders or no. I just think he was trying to be sneaky about it by going to Shadar Logoth.

Terez
08-30-2015, 11:16 PM
The "no kill" order was also why Graendal had been baiting Sammael to kill Rand. That, and the fact that she wanted him dead and valued her skin. She couldn't be entirely sure that Asmodean never told Rand where she was (and indeed, Asmodean did tell him), so she had reason to fear.

GonzoTheGreat
08-31-2015, 03:46 AM
I certainly agree that Sammael was trying to kill Rand though, orders or no. I just think he was trying to be sneaky about it by going to Shadar Logoth.
I also think he was trying to be sneaky, but I disagree about the reason.

For channelers as powerful as Rand or Sammael, with the ability to Travel whenever they want, one place is not much more important than another.
Sammael did not have any reason to try to make a stand Illian. If he fought there, where Rand expected him to fight, then he might fall for some trick or trap that Rand had prepared. By moving the fight somewhere else entirely Sammael made sure that Rand did not have such an advantage. And by moving the fight to a place that he had prepared for precisely this eventuality, he made sure that it would be Rand who would have a disadvantage. That's what the Trollocs were for: to reveal Rand's position to Sammael and let the latter decide when and where to strike.
Then, once Rand was done away with, Sammael could easily return to Illian and retake it, if needed, together with a lot more besides.

padfoot89
08-31-2015, 06:11 AM
Regarding the "no kill" order, what exactly were the Forsaken supposed to do if Rand came after them?

GonzoTheGreat
08-31-2015, 06:56 AM
Regarding the "no kill" order, what exactly were the Forsaken supposed to do if Rand came after them?
Based on Monty Python, they had at least the Black Knight option (which is what Asmodean picked) and the Brave Sir Robin method that Graendal employed. Lanfear/Cyndane would've opted for the Castle Anthrax approach, but she never really got the chance.

SomeOneElse
09-22-2015, 07:23 AM
Sammael was still under the "don't kill Rand" order. He was trying to set Rand up in a situation where he would get himself killed (presumably by Mashadar)

And that's the part I still wonder about - how some one like Rand or Sammael could be killed by Mashadar?
Mashadar looks like something easy to deal with for a channeler and I couldn't see how it managed to kill Sam. Sam should expect Mashadar to try and kill him also, as well as Rand and everyone else it could reach.

GonzoTheGreat
09-22-2015, 07:36 AM
Sneak up on him and attack from the back. While now and then giving him distractions in front to keep him thinkig that he's outsmarting you, of course.

Of course, one could wonder why Sammael hadn't warded the area in which he was standing, just as Moiraine had done when Mat went to pick up his dagger.

Ieyasu
12-15-2015, 05:39 PM
Of course, one could wonder why Sammael hadn't warded the area in which he was standing, just as Moiraine had done when Mat went to pick up his dagger.

Because the city (and its evil) didnt exist when Sammael last walked the world in the AoL, so he didnt know how to ward against it, where as modern AS had learned to do so in the time since his imprisonment.

Zombie Sammael
12-15-2015, 11:45 PM
Regarding the "no kill" order, what exactly were the Forsaken supposed to do if Rand came after them?

Die, and trust the Lord of the Grave to revive them. Also have a contingency plan in place in case of Balefire.

GonzoTheGreat
12-16-2015, 02:56 AM
Because the city (and its evil) didnt exist when Sammael last walked the world in the AoL, so he didnt know how to ward against it, where as modern AS had learned to do so in the time since his imprisonment.
There is some reason for doubt about that:
"He guided us." The hand that pointed to Mat was old and shriveled to scarcely human, lacking a fingernail and with knuckles gnarled like knots in a piece of rope. Mat took a step back, eyes widening. "An old thing, an old friend, an old enemy. But he is not the one we seek," the green-cloaked man finished. The other man stood as if he would never speak.So at the very least one of the Forsaken knew the evil of Mashadar well enough to recognise it and track it.

Figbiscuit
12-17-2015, 04:41 AM
Hole -E - shoot.

I never put that together in my head. Have some rep youngling.

Unless you are just a superior spam bot. In which case rep to your creator.

This. And I read that entire scene just last night. I'm going to have to start reading slower, that's always my problem. Even when I think I'm taking it all in and thinking about it I'm apparently not.

Nazbaque
12-17-2015, 05:49 AM
This. And I read that entire scene just last night. I'm going to have to start reading slower, that's always my problem. Even when I think I'm taking it all in and thinking about it I'm apparently not.

It's something like a mental version of "feeling the burn". So Fig, read and think, think, THINK. Feel the headache!

GonzoTheGreat
12-17-2015, 06:26 AM
It's something like a mental version of "feeling the burn". So Fig, read and think, think, THINK. Feel the headache!
Then randomly select some other part of the series, and try to figure what you're missing there.

Figbiscuit
12-17-2015, 08:19 AM
It's something like a mental version of "feeling the burn". So Fig, read and think, think, THINK. Feel the headache!

Then randomly select some other part of the series, and try to figure what you're missing there.

Life is tooooo short.

GonzoTheGreat
12-17-2015, 09:08 AM
But in the Wheel of Time you don't have just one life, do you?

SomeOneElse
12-17-2015, 11:34 AM
Because the city (and its evil) didnt exist when Sammael last walked the world in the AoL, so he didnt know how to ward against it, where as modern AS had learned to do so in the time since his imprisonment.
Looks like dealing with it didn't require any imagination or whatever, just a bit of common sense. If Sam didn't have it than I don't understand how could he survive the war of power.
But in the Wheel of Time you don't have just one life, do you?
Sam would argue here, if he could.

Terez
12-17-2015, 11:37 AM
But in the Wheel of Time you don't have just one life, do you?
But you forget everything so you'd have to start from scratch in every lifetime. And as time goes on the story fades to legend and then myth, and that just makes it more difficult to find something you missed.

GonzoTheGreat
12-17-2015, 12:18 PM
So maybe Figbiscuit already found some amazing new things, but won't tell us (because she's forgotten when she reincarnated). Perhaps she should've taken notes or something.

Zombie Sammael
12-17-2015, 07:04 PM
There is some reason for doubt about that:
So at the very least one of the Forsaken knew the evil of Mashadar well enough to recognise it and track it.

Other than this being a TEOTW-ism, it's entirely possible that Ishamael would have known about Mashadar, and that the explanation here is that he assisted Balthamel and Aginor in tracking the party down to the Eye. Ishamael may even have had a hand in bringing about Aridhol's downfall, though that seems thematically unlikely. You could also argue that an evil like Mashadar emerged during the War of Power, and was close enough to the Third Age Mashadar that Aginor's GPS still worked; we know from word of god that Mashadar was something found by Mordeth rather than made in Aridhol. Or since Aginor and Balthamel were closer to the surface they were closer to events and able to observe but not interact.

I think the real world explanation for the TWOTW-ism might be that RJ originally intended for other Forsaken than Ishamael to have a degree of freedom. That idea would have been abandoned by the time TEOTW went to print but as with various things wasn't fully edited out, and thus this scene.

GonzoTheGreat
12-18-2015, 04:18 AM
Could well be, of course. On the other hand, by the time that Sammael and Rand had their confrontation in Shadar Logoth, the TEOTW scene had been part of the canon for a long time, so RJ may have been aware of it. If so, then he could have come up with some reason why Sammael would have known about Mashadar too.

Even if RJ did not think of that, for some reason, then it still would make sense to assume that Sammael knew about Mashadar. He was deliberately using that very location to set a trap for the DR. As part of his preparation he would have studied what was known about that location, and that would undoubtedly have included asking some BA for anything the WT knew about it. He could then combine that with whatever there was in the Trolloc Central Library. It is even possible that the Friends of the Dark have some kind of information repository too, and Sammael would have had access to whatever was there as a matter of course.
So even if we for some reason assume that RJ did not know about the TEOTW bit, there was still ample reason to think Sammael would have been quite well informed.

Weiramon
12-18-2015, 03:30 PM
So maybe Figbiscuit already found some amazing new things, but won't tell us (because she's forgotten when she reincarnated). Perhaps she should've taken notes or something.

Bah, by the looks of her avatar, it is impossible to imagine she would forget something.

Ieyasu
02-03-2016, 02:02 AM
There is some reason for doubt about that:
So at the very least one of the Forsaken knew the evil of Mashadar well enough to recognise it and track it.

one of the Forsaken that was bound close to the surface of the prison and was able to watch history unfolding...

Figbiscuit
02-05-2016, 07:48 AM
So maybe Figbiscuit already found some amazing new things, but won't tell us (because she's forgotten when she reincarnated). Perhaps she should've taken notes or something.

I was debating notes, when I first started my re-read. That was when I thought I'd have some self control over it. Now on Knife of Dreams, literally getting nothing else done in life.