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Rand al'Fain
04-01-2015, 01:45 AM
I wanted to see what all the fuss was about (never read the books or watched the TV show before) so I went and got the 1st book. So far it's!

Okay. Just okay? Yeah, just okay, so far. Several chapters in and in jumps around from chapter to chapter. In Wheel of Time, it somewhat does this, but most POVs are from characters that were already introduced and you know who the main protagonist is (same with LOTR). So far, story building wise, that's my biggest issue. We have like 5 different characters who have received the same amount of attention, some of which are in the same area, others are in a different land. It just jumps between characters too much to really get attached. As soon as you start to, they jump to another character who may or may not be related to the previous character's POV.

Also, whereas WOT and LOTR spent time building up worlds and such, this one is more interested in political machinations. Including incest, molestation, slavery, etc. Definitely a darker tone than the WOT books, at least the earlier ones.

So yeah. It's okay, and I can see why it would translate so well to a HBO series, though I'll see where I'm at on it after I finish book 1.

SomeOneElse
04-01-2015, 03:38 AM
Yes it could be frustrating at the beginning, I agree, had the same thoughts as you when starting. Just read some more of it then you'll probably get used to it. Good that you've started with a book not with a movie.

Davian93
04-01-2015, 08:12 AM
I wouldn't waste your time if I were you. Zero point to start reading them as he's never going to finish and they start to really suck once he starts ignoring his editor in Feast for Crows.

Unless you like really long descriptions of food/feasts, etc and zero plot advancement and an ever growing spiral of rape, sexual depravity, etc added purely for shock value, its a waste of time. His schtick grows old after a while and his 7 years between books act is also old.

rand
04-01-2015, 03:00 PM
I wouldn't waste your time if I were you. Zero point to start reading them as he's never going to finish and they start to really suck once he starts ignoring his editor in Feast for Crows.
Actually, GRRM just announced that he finished Winds of Winter, and it will be out sometime this summer. On top of that, he also revealed that he's already halfway done A Dream of Spring!









April Fools :p

rand
04-01-2015, 03:06 PM
I wanted to see what all the fuss was about (never read the books or watched the TV show before) so I went and got the 1st book. So far it's!

Okay. Just okay? Yeah, just okay, so far. Several chapters in and in jumps around from chapter to chapter. In Wheel of Time, it somewhat does this, but most POVs are from characters that were already introduced and you know who the main protagonist is (same with LOTR). So far, story building wise, that's my biggest issue. We have like 5 different characters who have received the same amount of attention, some of which are in the same area, others are in a different land. It just jumps between characters too much to really get attached. As soon as you start to, they jump to another character who may or may not be related to the previous character's POV.

Also, whereas WOT and LOTR spent time building up worlds and such, this one is more interested in political machinations. Including incest, molestation, slavery, etc. Definitely a darker tone than the WOT books, at least the earlier ones.

So yeah. It's okay, and I can see why it would translate so well to a HBO series, though I'll see where I'm at on it after I finish book 1.
There isn't any real "protagonist" in asoiaf. None of the characters are "good" and none are really "bad." So if you're waiting for one single character to emerge as the main one...yeah, it's not gonna happen.

Also, regarding the world building...just wait, it will come gradually with series. GRRM's world is actually very ceative and complex.

I'd recommend reading the series. Like Dav said, books 4 and 5 are kind of meh, but IMO, books 1 and 3 are two of the best fantasy books ever written, with book 2 not very far behind. I think it's worth reading the series just for those three books alone.

SomeOneElse
04-01-2015, 03:47 PM
Actually, GRRM just announced that he finished Winds of Winter, and it will be out sometime this summer. On top of that, he also revealed that he's already halfway done A Dream of Spring!









April Fools :p
Oh you

Davian93
04-01-2015, 05:46 PM
He's not writing an episode of the show this year to instead focus on finishing Winds of Winter (only 5 years in now, GRRM).

He said he turned them down but I tend to think that HBO probably told him to sod off and focus on the damn books so they don't completely overtake him in the next year or so.

Best case is he's almost done Winds and he maybe, just maybe finishes soon and it can be published late this fall or early 2016. Mind you, he's been actively working on it since mid-2010 since good chunks of it were cut from Dance with Dragons.

Ugh...he really pisses me off given that I picked up Book 1 of aSoIaF in 1997.


Whoever said the first 3 books were great is completely right though. They really are and I guess are worth a read even knowing it will never end and it really drops off in Books 4 & 5 when you can tell he loses track of his story and he apparently ate his editor.

Kimon
04-01-2015, 07:50 PM
Ugh...he really pisses me off given that I picked up Book 1 of aSoIaF in 1997.



The first three books were excellent, he just seems to have lost any track of how to end the story. The first three books all came in quick succession - '96, '98, and 2000, and likewise had clear and succinct plots. Then everything unraveled. A five year hiatus until Feast for Crows, and a story that seemed lost and disjointed. Then a six year hiatus until Dance of Dragons. That last was at least a bit better but the same dilemma persisted, the same problem that has plagued this series all along - Dany. She is clearly needed for the resolution, and she is doing nothing to move the plot forward.

GRRM seems to have lost any sense of what to do with either her, or with the endgame of the narrative.

rand
04-01-2015, 09:28 PM
Based on stuff GRRM has said, I think there's still a slim (very slim) chance that TWoW will come out late this year. He's apparently cancelled his appearances at several events, but says he'll still go to them if he finishes the book before then.



I've said this elsewhere, but I honestly believe GRRM really screwed his story up with the five year gap that was supposed to happen halfway through the series. Between two books there would have been a space of five years which would allow the younger characters to grow, and would allow others (ie Dany) to move to where they need to be. He scraped the idea, for whatever reason, and the result seems to be that GRRM has no idea what to do with a lot of the characters. Instead of growing older or moving around, Bran, Sansa, and Dany now have basically nothing to do. On top of that, splitting books 4 and 5 in half based on character (and not chronology) was a bad idea. They're much better when you read them at the same time.

I hope he can get the story back on track in tWoW. Maybe he won't, and maybe it will just be another disappointment, but I think he can still bring the series back to what it originally was.

Rand al'Fain
04-01-2015, 10:17 PM
So, I can get about 5-6 books in, with grinding though books that don't really go anywhere, until I hit a point where I'm stuck waiting for the next book?

Almost sounds like WOT, though with far more depravity.

rand
04-01-2015, 10:43 PM
Just my opinion, but neither A Feast for Crows nor A Dance with Dragons are as bad as Crossroads of Twilight or Knife of Dreams in terms of nothing happening.

Kimon
04-01-2015, 11:01 PM
Just my opinion, but neither A Feast for Crows nor A Dance with Dragons are as bad as Crossroads of Twilight or Knife of Dreams in terms of nothing happening.

I liked Knife of Dreams. It was easily the best book in WoT since CoS. WH had its moments - mostly just Far Madding and the Cleansing. PoD was pretty dull, the asha'man campaign against the Seanchan was okay, the rest was meh. There was nothing redeeming though about CoT.

Part of Feast's problem was the lack of Tyrion and Jon. It did however have Arya, and it traded in Dany for the much more interesting Arianne Martell. So it was sort of like a WoT book where there would be no Rand or Mat, but with the trade off of getting Min and Elayne instead of Egwene, but you're stuck with a lot of Perrin. And Dance, well you get Tyrion and Jon again, but now you're also stuck with Dany.

So think of it this way, if you like Mat, you'll like Tyrion. If you hate Egwene, you'll hate Dany.

rand
04-02-2015, 12:27 AM
I liked Knife of Dreams. It was easily the best book in WoT since CoS. WH had its moments - mostly just Far Madding and the Cleansing. PoD was pretty dull, the asha'man campaign against the Seanchan was okay, the rest was meh. There was nothing redeeming though about CoT.

Part of Feast's problem was the lack of Tyrion and Jon. It did however have Arya, and it traded in Dany for the much more interesting Arianne Martell. So it was sort of like a WoT book where there would be no Rand or Mat, but with the trade off of getting Min and Elayne instead of Egwene, but you're stuck with a lot of Perrin. And Dance, well you get Tyrion and Jon again, but now you're also stuck with Dany.

So think of it this way, if you like Mat, you'll like Tyrion. If you hate Egwene, you'll hate Dany.
The main reason I didn't like CoT was because RJ basically cut Rand from it. Then he went and did the same thing in KoD. It's the omission of Rand, and the fact that he cuts Rand so he can show the other characters doing nothing, that puts me off regarding those two books. And at least GRRM moves around between POVs a lot. In CoT you just get 100 pages of Perrin doing nothing, then 100 pages of Egwene doing nothing, then 100 pages of Elayne doing nothing, etc. And yes, KoD resolves some plots. But ultimately, how important are Perrin's rescue of Faile or Elayne's gaining of the Lion Throne to the conclusion of the series? They aren't, really. They're just the conclusions of relatively minor subplots that could easily not have been present at all. And this isn't to give the wrong impression, because I like reading these books still. But they're easily my least favorite in WoT, and both are worse than Feast or Dance IMO.

Speaking of Feast and Dance, have you ever tried reading them simultaneously? (http://boiledleather.com/post/24543217702/a-proposed-a-feast-for-crows-a-dance-with-dragons) It makes the overall story a lot better, I think. I read using that guide on my last asoiaf reread.

yks 6nnetu hing
04-02-2015, 01:35 AM
So think of it this way, if you like Mat, you'll like Tyrion. If you hate Egwene, you'll hate Dany.

lol, no

I love Egwene but think Dany is dull as a brick.

Davian93
04-02-2015, 06:29 AM
Just my opinion, but neither A Feast for Crows nor A Dance with Dragons are as bad as Crossroads of Twilight or Knife of Dreams in terms of nothing happening.

This is true...its simply magnified to be more annoying when you realize that RJ died and they've still put out 5 WoT books (6 if you count New Spring) in the time its taken GRRM to put out his last 2 books.

Davian93
04-02-2015, 06:31 AM
lol, no

I love Egwene but think Dany is dull as a brick.

Yeah and at least Egwene didn't get distracted completely from her job just so she could fvck everything that moves for a year straight.

Egwene, whom my feelings towards are well known, is far, far superior as a leader and character to Dany.

Daekyras
04-02-2015, 07:03 AM
A quick guide to aSoIaF:

Book 1: great. Slow start but never really dull. Excellent ending. Shock done well.

Book 2: wow, shot kicking off. Erm, big shock but he's done it before. Bravo for catching me twice.. Quite a few patches of boredom.

Book 3: I'm starting to like some of these ancillary characters. Wait, what, what? why do that? Makes no sense. About ten chapters of nothing.

Book 4: what? What? Hello? Is there anybody there? I am falling asleep here.

BOOK 5: arrrrrrrghhhhh! I threw this at the wall. F#ck you GRRM. It's not shocking anymore, it's just stupid. And stop stalling characters for no reason. Also, people that age shouldn't be involved in "stuff" like that. Pervert.

If this series were films they would be lethal weapon. Law of diminishing returns.

Davian93
04-02-2015, 07:29 AM
Spoiler free but there are some parts I really liked about Feast for Crows but other parts were just godawful. I dont want to go into details of even naming names as that would give stuff away as to who is important and who isn't as major characters.

On a side note....great summary by Daek. Quite accurate overall to my own feelings on Book 5 especially.

SomeOneElse
04-02-2015, 08:46 AM
Btw I think GRRM is also about to die be4 he is done with the books and so some one else will have to write it based on his notes (if any).
Hope one day they release everything GRRM wrote about Arya being in Braavos cause he ones said its volume is about a separate book.

GonzoTheGreat
04-02-2015, 09:31 AM
Anything he writes is a separate book. That's the whole problem with him: he's using us as the chorus in the Monty Python "get on with it" sketch. I've decided to stop playing his game, but others seem to still enjoy it (or something).

rand
04-02-2015, 06:55 PM
Btw I think GRRM is also about to die be4 he is done with the books and so some one else will have to write it based on his notes (if any).
"Tyrion's face was a tempest of rage as he stepped back to take antoher swing with his sword. Just you wait, he thought, looking at the men attacking him. You will all be overwhlemed by my awesomeness soon."



Also, if anyone's interested, GRRM released a new chapter (http://www.georgerrmartin.com/excerpt-from-the-winds-of-winter/) of Winds today. I haven't read it yet, so I don't know what's in it. But it's a Sansa chapter, which is somewhat significant because as far as I can remember this is the first new Sansa chapter GRRM has written since 2005...

Rand al'Fain
04-04-2015, 12:05 AM
Well, a bit further in, and here's my opinions so far. There are spoilers, so you read past here and get mad, whatever.

Tyrion I like. Probably the most reasonable character thus far. I also liked the Dwarves in LOTR and The Hobbit too. So all is still good.

The King is incompetent. While he would make a fine officer, he really sucks at being a King.

Joffery can go eat a bag of dicks, as can his lackeys (just got past the part where Lady is killed for doing nothing wrong).

Cersei needs to be hung. Makes Egwene at her worst look pleasant. And has the subtlety of a canon. She just benefits from an incompetent husband.

Sansa is like an extreme version of "prissy" Elayne (all "Noble Lady" and no personality). Her sister, a tomboy (poor butcher's son).

Tyrion's brother is probably the most complex character after Tyrion himself so far. But still needs to have his balls kicked in for what he did to Bran.

Jon Snow, not a bad character, just not much going for him right now.

Robb, same.

Lady Stark, other than being incredibly cruel to Jon over something that is not Jon's fault, is a pretty decent character. Loyal to her husband and deeply cares for him (despite originally being betrothed to Ed's deceased brother), intelligent but still human.

Dany. Boy did she luck out with Kal Drogo not forcing himself onto her. Though I estimate her to be no older than 14, so it's still pretty creepy.

Her brother is a douchenozzle that I have a feeling won't live much longer.

Dothraki. Obviously based on the Mongols/Huns. Brutal way of life, centered around horses, slavers, etc. Not sure, but I don't think the Mongols/Huns were so viscous that they killed each other over humping some random woman.

Eddard Stark is the generic "honor and loyalty above all" kind of guy that you expect to see. At least, after killing Lady, he had some men take her back to his place to give her a good burial.

Did I mention Joffery can eat a bag of dicks?

SauceyBlueConfetti
04-04-2015, 09:58 PM
Uh. You do all know he posted a new chapter on his site this week right? And Said the book will be done in 2016



I m not gonna bother reading the chapter. Also something about some possible big idea on as character that cannot be reflected on HBO because of something they as already aired

linky to grrm news,if you even care anymore (http://www.ew.com/article/2015/04/03/george-rr-martin-winds-date)

Davian93
04-06-2015, 06:55 AM
Uh. You do all know he posted a new chapter on his site this week right? And Said the book will be done in 2016



I m not gonna bother reading the chapter. Also something about some possible big idea on as character that cannot be reflected on HBO because of something they as already aired

linky to grrm news,if you even care anymore (http://www.ew.com/article/2015/04/03/george-rr-martin-winds-date)

We've all heard that before...even so, it'll still take him another 5-6 years before Spring Winds or whatever the hell Book 7 is tentatively titled.

Davian93
04-06-2015, 07:00 AM
***Responses***

Well, a bit further in, and here's my opinions so far. There are spoilers, so you read past here and get mad, whatever.

Tyrion I like. Probably the most reasonable character thus far. I also liked the Dwarves in LOTR and The Hobbit too. So all is still good.

***Tyrion is awesome***

The King is incompetent. While he would make a fine officer, he really sucks at being a King.

***Classic example of a guy that was great in war but awful in peace***

Joffery can go eat a bag of dicks, as can his lackeys (just got past the part where Lady is killed for doing nothing wrong).

***ROFL...ROFLMAO***

Cersei needs to be hung. Makes Egwene at her worst look pleasant. And has the subtlety of a canon. She just benefits from an incompetent husband.

***Yup***

Sansa is like an extreme version of "prissy" Elayne (all "Noble Lady" and no personality). Her sister, a tomboy (poor butcher's son).

***Yup***

Tyrion's brother is probably the most complex character after Tyrion himself so far. But still needs to have his balls kicked in for what he did to Bran.

***He's honestly one of my favorite characters...if not my very favorite after Tyrion***

Jon Snow, not a bad character, just not much going for him right now.

***It gets better****

Robb, same.

Lady Stark, other than being incredibly cruel to Jon over something that is not Jon's fault, is a pretty decent character. Loyal to her husband and deeply cares for him (despite originally being betrothed to Ed's deceased brother), intelligent but still human.



Dany. Boy did she luck out with Kal Drogo not forcing himself onto her. Though I estimate her to be no older than 14, so it's still pretty creepy.

***I hate myself for doing this but that age gap was pretty common for the time period this is supposedly set in (basically think Hundred Years Wars to Wars of the Roses England with some Tudor England thrown in there for the political manuevering. Sick as hell to us but "normal" to them. The tv show thankfully upages her to about 18 years old to make it less creepy.***

Her brother is a douchenozzle that I have a feeling won't live much longer.

Dothraki. Obviously based on the Mongols/Huns. Brutal way of life, centered around horses, slavers, etc. Not sure, but I don't think the Mongols/Huns were so viscous that they killed each other over humping some random woman.

Eddard Stark is the generic "honor and loyalty above all" kind of guy that you expect to see. At least, after killing Lady, he had some men take her back to his place to give her a good burial.

***Yeah, he's basically the epitome of Honor. really good guy all the way through to be honest.***

Did I mention Joffery can eat a bag of dicks?

Rand al'Fain
04-08-2015, 12:25 AM
Well, I was typing up another summary list, but then I pressed some weird combination of buttons and accidentally deleted it. So in short;

The Dire Wolves are cool. And with Dany getting her dragons (way too many things pointing that they'll hatch at some point), makes me think the Targaryens, well, Dany at least, and the Starks are somehow connected. With the heirs (even Jon) each getting a Dire Wolf, the Stark family crest, and Dany getting 3 dragon eggs, something tells me the author wants them to join up somehow. And they do both hate the Lannisters...

Speaking of the Lannisters, Tyrion is still cool, but outside the youngest 2 kids, as they have not really been focused on at all, I would not be sad if they were all executed. Or at least bannished.

Robert Baratheon, to the very end, was all warrior and no king. And his inattention to subtlety seems to have been his ultimate downfall.

Sansa, up to this point where I am at, is still being played by the Lannisters. Are we sure she is not "touched" in the head? Because damn, she makes "fall into trap and need rescuing" Elayne look 100% competent. And Elayne is not much older than Sansa.

Arya is a ninja. Quick, resourceful, intelligent, and reasonable. She has (well, had) a good teacher who, with a wooden sword, dispatched 5 men looking to grab her.

Jon is pretty cool. He looks after his friends and focuses on their strong points and does what he can to help with their weak points. Like Samwell. Who is not a fighter, but is a scholar and has a good memory despite being weak at the sight of blood.

All the Stark children, other than Sansa, look to be pretty intelligent and resourceful in their own ways.

Joffery still needs to eat a bag of dicks.

Dany has a conscience, shown when her hubby's horde goes and pillages a sheep herder's town. For slaves. Slaughtering many and raping more. Her husband is not AS bad. I'll say that. Though I would not mind seeing the Dothraki humbled. Harshly.

Eddard, well, his honor, honesty, loyalty, and ultimately, his conscience ended up being his downfall. Makes me hate politics that much more.

Joffery still sucks.

Catelyn is a good character. Intelligent, brave, caring, and loves her family. Her sister though, has gone completely off the deep end.

Oh, did I mention that I hate Joffery? This kid is king? Well, I think his reign will be similar to what Dany's brother would have been if he was still alive (saw that one coming). Stupid, unnecessary bloodshed, and a short reign.

Yeah.

rand
04-08-2015, 04:07 PM
Sansa, up to this point where I am at, is still being played by the Lannisters. Are we sure she is not "touched" in the head? Because damn, she makes "fall into trap and need rescuing" Elayne look 100% competent. And Elayne is not much older than Sansa.
To be fair, Elayne was probably 19-20 when she was gaining the thorne of Andor and leading the forces of the Light in the Last Battle. Sansa is what, 11?

I won't spoil anything, but I kind of like Sansa's character development throughout the series, even though she just annoys most people. It's much slower than most characters, but it feels a bit more real that way.

Kimon
04-08-2015, 04:34 PM
To be fair, Elayne was probably 19-20 when she was gaining the thorne of Andor and leading the forces of the Light in the Last Battle. Sansa is what, 11?

I won't spoil anything, but I kind of like Sansa's character development throughout the series, even though she just annoys most people. It's much slower than most characters, but it feels a bit more real that way.

Sansa just seemed to be suffering from a heavy dose Tully Syndrome (the same aggravating stupidity is evident in seemingly every member of the clan except the Blackfish) early on, a problem exacerbated by the fact that her younger sister, Arya, was so much more perceptive, not to mention likeable, than she. Sansa does start to slowly overcome her Tullyness as the story progresses.

Davian93
04-08-2015, 05:09 PM
Sansa just seemed to be suffering from a heavy dose Tully Syndrome (the same aggravating stupidity is evident in seemingly every member of the clan except the Blackfish) early on, a problem exacerbated by the fact that her younger sister, Arya, was so much more perceptive, not to mention likeable, than she. Sansa does start to slowly overcome her Tullyness as the story progresses.

Yup.

Rand al'Fain
04-08-2015, 09:59 PM
To be fair, Elayne was probably 19-20 when she was gaining the thorne of Andor and leading the forces of the Light in the Last Battle. Sansa is what, 11?

I won't spoil anything, but I kind of like Sansa's character development throughout the series, even though she just annoys most people. It's much slower than most characters, but it feels a bit more real that way.

And her younger and more perceptive sister is 9 (I think). And she saw right through the smug bastard (double meaning there) that is Joffery.

Davian93
04-09-2015, 07:37 AM
And her younger and more perceptive sister is 9 (I think). And she saw right through the smug bastard (double meaning there) that is Joffery.

Well, she isn't outright retarded due to the lack of Tully coloring.

Daekyras
04-09-2015, 09:05 AM
And her younger and more perceptive sister is 9 (I think). And she saw right through the smug bastard (double meaning there) that is Joffery.

Arya is 9. Sansa is 11. Dani about 14.

One of my least favourite things about GRR Martin is that he says things like "I wanted a five year story gap between book 1and 2" or "in retrospect I wish I had started with the stark children older". Just how little planning did he put into these stories?? And as for the five year gap- you're the writer dill wad! If you wanted that- you could have done it. Ass.

SomeOneElse
04-09-2015, 11:55 AM
Arya is 9. Sansa is 11. Dani about 14.

One of my least favourite things about GRR Martin is that he says things like "I wanted a five year story gap between book 1and 2" or "in retrospect I wish I had started with the stark children older". Just how little planning did he put into these stories?? And as for the five year gap- you're the writer dill wad! If you wanted that- you could have done it. Ass.
Actually after book 5 or 4 or even any of them I don't see how you could put these five years at all without changing to the whole plot.

Davian93
04-09-2015, 12:13 PM
Actually after book 5 or 4 or even any of them I don't see how you could put these five years at all without changing to the whole plot.

Easiest way to do it would have just been to have winter start then and last 4-5 years where no one can really do anything due to the weather. Then have a spring where things start happening again.

Of course, that would have thrown off the thematic thing hes got going with the Others coming with Winter but he might have been able to do it.


maybe next time, come up with a basic outline if you're planning an epic fantasy series.

GonzoTheGreat
04-09-2015, 12:20 PM
maybe next time, come up with a basic outline if you're planning an epic fantasy series.
Pratchett didn't, and yet it worked out all right for him.

Daekyras
04-09-2015, 12:39 PM
Actually after book 5 or 4 or even any of them I don't see how you could put these five years at all without changing to the whole plot.

He said he wanted to do it between books 1 and 2. Of course we can't see how to do it when we are five books in. Martin is, however, the guy who created the whole universe for these stories. He was there from day 1. If he wanted to do that he could have and he shouldn't be using excuses for what he writes about later in the series.

As dav said, have a goddamned outline in place.

Rand al'Fain
04-11-2015, 03:54 PM
Well, after finishing book 1, here's a bit of a review.

It's good, a lot darker and grittier theme than WOT and LOTR, but still good. The POV characters are, for the most part (with the exception of Sansa) interesting. The settings are unique and are based off of known cultures.

Westeros greatly resembles the UK. Just thought I would throw that out there (in terms of maps).

There are some issues I have though.
1. "Rape this" "Rape that" SO much of it for shock value that, as horrible as rape is, loses it's impact after awhile.

2. Sansa is about as intelligent and interesting as a rock and it takes her father being imprisoned and set for trial before she realizes something isn't quite right in the castle.

3. The POVs jump around too much. While in WOT, you jump from one character to another, there's at least some build up/introduction to the newest character(s) prior to the POV in most cases. In Game of Thrones, as soon as you get invested in a POV and want to follow it more, the chapter ends and so does the POV with a "jump cut" to sometime later.

3. "Trial by Combat" has to be one of the stupidest things I have ever heard of. It doesn't prove a person is innocent, all it does is prove they know how to wield their weapon a bit better than their foe and thus far, has ended up with more good intentioned men dead than anything.

A good book, with some interesting characters, but certainly has faults.

SomeOneElse
04-11-2015, 04:23 PM
POV characters are, for the most part (with the exception of Sansa)

I agree with you here, but I'd also add Catelyn, I find her PoVs even more boring then Sansa's.

GonzoTheGreat
04-12-2015, 04:12 AM
3. "Trial by Combat" has to be one of the stupidest things I have ever heard of. It doesn't prove a person is innocent, all it does is prove they know how to wield their weapon a bit better than their foe and thus far, has ended up with more good intentioned men dead than anything.
Most people would've called this point four. But I guess that environmental concerns led you to reuse "3".
That said, trial by combat was indeed a fairly dodgy idea. Still, you (probably) can't blame GRRM for that; he just plucked it from European history.

Daekyras
04-12-2015, 08:37 AM
Most people would've called this point four. But I guess that environmental concerns led you to reuse "3".
That said, trial by combat was indeed a fairly dodgy idea. Still, you (probably) can't blame GRRM for that; he just plucked it from European history.

God will be on the side of the righteous and therefor they cannot die in a trial by combat.

I'll try and find the link but a few years I remember reading about a guy asking for "trial by combat" after being taken to court over some minor infraction.

I think he was found in contempt of court and fined about three times what he would have been fined!

Rand al'Fain
04-12-2015, 10:47 AM
Most people would've called this point four. But I guess that environmental concerns led you to reuse "3".
That said, trial by combat was indeed a fairly dodgy idea. Still, you (probably) can't blame GRRM for that; he just plucked it from European history.

Didn't realize I did that. Oops.

And I can blame him for it, since he decided to "pluck it".

Plus you have at least 2 different belief systems in Westeros alone, with the New Gods of the Southern Kingdoms and the old nameless gods of the North that were adopted from the Children of the Forest thousands of years prior.

rand
04-14-2015, 04:41 PM
One of my least favourite things about GRR Martin is that he says things like "I wanted a five year story gap between book 1and 2" or "in retrospect I wish I had started with the stark children older". Just how little planning did he put into these stories?? And as for the five year gap- you're the writer dill wad! If you wanted that- you could have done it. Ass.
To be fair, writing a book is hard, and writing a whole series of them is even harder. It isn't really possible to just write an outline and stick to it to a T through the course of 10 or 20 years without any desire to change it. In fact, I'd have even less respect for GRRM if he claimed that the version of asoiaf we have now is exactly as he planned it to be 15 years ago. RJ clearly did the same thing. If he'd had a clear-cut, highly detailed outline of the WOT in place before starting the series, he'd have written something like 8 books in 10 years and been done with it.

But it doesn't work like that. No author with even a shred of imagination or creativity is going to write an outline and stick to it religiously decades after it's done.

Daekyras
04-14-2015, 05:13 PM
But it doesn't work like that. No author with even a shred of imagination or creativity is going to write an outline and stick to it religiously decades after it's done.

That's clearly the case rand but he has written very young girls going through highly dubious acts. So if he found that he couldn't age them- change the story. As you said, it's a fluid process. It can be fluid in both directions. The defence of "imagination and creativity" not sticking to an outline falls down if he rigidly sticks to it in other ways..

Boli
04-15-2015, 09:15 AM
I tried to get into these books a few years back; in the end I just got annoyed with the constant PoV swapping and GRRM had this nasty habit of making a character interesting just before he killed them.

You get a backstory and a cool possible plot twists for the future and BAMN raped and dead.


that said there is a very easy way for him to fix these dodgy ages - just declare that years on his world are like 500 days instead

9 becomes 12
11 becomes 15
14 becomes 19

and you stop having that gary glitter feeling reading the books.

Rand al'Fain
05-24-2015, 01:39 AM
I have to ask, after thinking it over, how was the relationship between Ned and Renly? Overall, that is. Because it was obvious Renly knew what would happen after his brother's death and told Ned what to do (this is also after watching this part in the TV series). Obviously he wanted help becoming the true king from the King's Hand, but I am curious to how he saw Ned.