PDA

View Full Version : Game of Thrones - Season 5 (spoilerish)


Pages : [1] 2

Kimon
04-12-2015, 09:27 PM
Thoughts on the first episode? Are we to assume that Melisandre was still weaving the Mirror of Mists?

Terez
04-12-2015, 10:41 PM
Thoughts: my main question after that episode is whether Maggy will finish the prophecy or if they cut it because 1) they don't want to give away too much or 2) they're going to go a different road.

Melisandre: Westeros tweeted this (https://twitter.com/westerosorg/status/587457713069805568).

Davian93
04-13-2015, 07:36 AM
I'm kinda hoping they cut that whole sub-plot out with Melisandre...there have been too many "He died but no he actually didnt!!!" moments in the books. It got old after the 2nd or 3rd time GRRM pulled that trick.

Anaiya Sedai
04-13-2015, 02:23 PM
I'm with Dav on this.

I have a complete love-hate relationship with Game of Thrones, and the whole asoiaf series really. I can't wait for it to end.

Southpaw2012
04-13-2015, 02:58 PM
It is getting pretty old... my question is how different the books will be compared to the show now that it is clear that the show will finish first.

Daekyras
04-13-2015, 05:35 PM
Thoughts on the first episode? Are we to assume that Melisandre was still weaving the Mirror of Mists?

Why would you assume that kimon?

Kimon
04-13-2015, 06:26 PM
Why would you assume that kimon?

That's what happened in the book. Jon doesn't figure out the switch until later in Dance, but the scene in the show didn't offer any hint for the readers, leaving it open to the question, one which has apparently been answered by Terez' link.

Apparently the show decided that they didn't need Mance's role in the Winterfell scenes that will follow. Understandable, as that role was pretty minimal, and unnecessary. Of course it's unclear whether any of that storyline will occur. Jeyne Poole was never used so far as I recall, perhaps someone else will be sent north as an "Arya" to marry Ramsay. His (Mance's) plan completely fell apart anyway, and Theon mostly just got out on his own. So they could just replace Mance's later activities with someone else, the Onion Knight would be too recognizable to go in clandestinely as Mance had, but they could send him here openly rather than to White Harbor (whose lord apparently doesn't even exist in the show) to give him something to do. It's looking like there will be extensive changes likely everywhere from the books (not a clue where Sansa and Littlefinger are going either), not a surprise, as they are almost out of book material already.

Davian93
04-13-2015, 07:03 PM
It is getting pretty old... my question is how different the books will be compared to the show now that it is clear that the show will finish first.

See, we agree on things occasionally. You know Southpaw, I bet we'd get along smashingly in real life.

Davian93
04-13-2015, 07:05 PM
I'm with Dav on this.

I have a complete love-hate relationship with Game of Thrones, and the whole asoiaf series really. I can't wait for it to end.

I'm at pretty much the same point where I basically act like an abused spouse with aSoIaF. I keep telling myself GRRM is bad for me and I don't need this abuse but if/when he puts out a new book, I'll buy it on Day 1 and do a marathon read.

He promised he'd change, dammit!

Davian93
04-13-2015, 07:06 PM
That's what happened in the book. Jon doesn't figure out the switch until later in Dance, but the scene in the show didn't offer any hint for the readers, leaving it open to the question, one which has apparently been answered by Terez' link.

Apparently the show decided that they didn't need Mance's role in the Winterfell scenes that will follow. Understandable, as that role was pretty minimal, and unnecessary. Of course it's unclear whether any of that storyline will occur. Jeyne Poole was never used so far as I recall, perhaps someone else will be sent north as an "Arya" to marry Ramsay. His (Mance's) plan completely fell apart anyway, and Theon mostly just got out on his own. So they could just replace Mance's later activities with someone else, the Onion Knight would be too recognizable to go in clandestinely as Mance had, but they could send him here openly rather than to White Harbor (whose lord apparently doesn't even exist in the show) to give him something to do. It's looking like there will be extensive changes likely everywhere from the books (not a clue where Sansa and Littlefinger are going either), not a surprise, as they are almost out of book material already.

I don't think they're going to drag out the Bolton/Stennis Baratheon conflict over two seasons...I bet it happens near the end of this season and its totally different than the books (where, of course, it STILL hasn't happened despite both groups being basically in place 2.5 books ago.

Zombie Sammael
04-13-2015, 08:45 PM
I don't think they're going to drag out the Bolton/Stennis Baratheon conflict over two seasons...I bet it happens near the end of this season and its totally different than the books (where, of course, it STILL hasn't happened despite both groups being basically in place 2.5 books ago.

Sure, they're in place, but it's SNOWING, dammit!

rand
04-13-2015, 10:23 PM
Thoughts: my main question after that episode is whether Maggy will finish the prophecy or if they cut it because 1) they don't want to give away too much or 2) they're going to go a different road.
My hope is that they just want it to be a surprise when Cersei is killed. I'm hoping they didn't cut the "little brother" part because it refers to Arya or something like that which only marginally seems to make sense, and they didn't want to confuse people.



I thought it was interesting that they brought Lancel back. It might just be a decent way to explain the Sparrows, but it could also hint at the fact that the Faith will pick Lancel to fight Gregor in Cersei's trial by combat it tWoW. Or they're just gonna make up a bunch of random scenes with him.

That's one of the things that annoys me with the GoT show. I understand that they have to cut some stuff, but then they add all kinds of random scenes that weren't in any shape or form in the books. In this first episode, it was probably 50-50 in terms of scenes from the books and made up stuff. From what I can tell based on the cast lists, they're cutting the Iron Islands subplot (Aeron, Euron, and Victarion Greyjoy), Arianne Martell, and Aegon the fake Targaryen with Jon Connington. Not to mention Lady Stoneheart and other things that have seemingly been cut already.

Since I've been working on that WoT episode guide, I can say that this is something I'd hate to see happen to WoT if it was ever turned into a TV show. Cut stuff if necessary, sure, but don't do it at the expense of a bunch of unnecessary scenes the producers simply made up.

Kimon
04-13-2015, 10:38 PM
My hope is that they just want it to be a surprise when Cersei is killed. I'm hoping they didn't cut the "little brother" part because it refers to Arya or something like that which only marginally seems to make sense, and they didn't want to confuse people.



I thought it was interesting that they brought Lancel back. It might just be a decent way to explain the Sparrows, but it could also hint at the fact that the Faith will pick Lancel to fight Gregor in Cersei's trial by combat it tWoW. Or they're just gonna make up a bunch of random scenes with him.

That's one of the things that annoys me with the GoT show. I understand that they have to cut some stuff, but then they add all kinds of random scenes that weren't in any shape or form in the books. In this first episode, it was probably 50-50 in terms of scenes from the books and made up stuff. From what I can tell based on the cast lists, they're cutting the Iron Islands subplot (Aeron, Euron, and Victarion Greyjoy), Arianne Martell, and Aegon the fake Targaryen with Jon Connington. Not to mention Lady Stoneheart and other things that have seemingly been cut already.

Since I've been working on that WoT episode guide, I can say that this is something I'd hate to see happen to WoT if it was ever turned into a TV show. Cut stuff if necessary, sure, but don't do it at the expense of a bunch of unnecessary scenes the producers simply made up.

I'm ambivalent on getting rid of Aegon and Connington, but getting rid of the extraneous Iron Islanders/Kingsmoot stuff was a good idea, and getting rid of Lady Stoneheart is almost as good idea as killing off Dany would be. Getting rid of Arianne Martell, however, is really dumb. There is no point to having Doran without her, and her character does more than Dany ever has. This season is going to be very boring if without her. The key to all the problems with asoiaf is that last bit. Dany's story is a complete and utter disaster. just have her dragons eat her and be done with that boring thread, then flip a coin to decide if you want to end the story with Jon or with Tyrion as the king.

Terez
04-13-2015, 10:39 PM
Lancel became a Sparrow in the books. That's how they got the dirt on Cersei.

Davian93
04-14-2015, 07:30 AM
Lancel became a Sparrow in the books. That's how they got the dirt on Cersei.

Yes and its a fairly large subplot for Feast of Crows...where he is married to a Frey (who is apparently very "easy"), but he never consumates and then he goes and joins the Sparrows and it helps lead to Cersei's downfall along with the Kettleblacks, etc etc.

Daekyras
04-14-2015, 09:08 AM
That's what happened in the book. Jon doesn't figure out the switch until later in Dance, but the scene in the show didn't offer any hint for the readers,



Thats why I was asking. I was distracted by something else as I watched and thought I might have missed a clue. It looked pretty clear that it was reality(for the series)

rand
04-14-2015, 02:35 PM
Lancel became a Sparrow in the books. That's how they got the dirt on Cersei.
Yeah, I know. I just figured they'd find another way to do all that without having to bring back a major-ish character from several seasons back.

I'm ambivalent on getting rid of Aegon and Connington, but getting rid of the extraneous Iron Islanders/Kingsmoot stuff was a good idea, and getting rid of Lady Stoneheart is almost as good idea as killing off Dany would be. Getting rid of Arianne Martell, however, is really dumb. There is no point to having Doran without her, and her character does more than Dany ever has. This season is going to be very boring if without her. The key to all the problems with asoiaf is that last bit. Dany's story is a complete and utter disaster. just have her dragons eat her and be done with that boring thread, then flip a coin to decide if you want to end the story with Jon or with Tyrion as the king.
Unless they're trying to surprise people for some reason, Arianne wasn't cast at all. Every other major character in Dorne was except her, so maybe they'll merge her with one of the Sand Snakes so the audience isn't suddenly introduced to 57 Dornish characters simultaneously.



I actually like the Iron Islands subplot. Not necessarily the kingsmoot stuff--but they can get around that easily by saying "Euron's the eldest, he's the new king."

But Euron especially is one of my favorite characters in the books, despite very little screen time, no PoVs, and the fact that we know very little about him. But he's a mysterious pirate who's been everywhere, including Asshai and supposedly even Valyria. There are all kinds of hints that he somehow knows the future. As of aDwD, he's currently attacking the Reach, Oldtown, and Highgarden itself. Perhaps most significantly, he seems to have traded a dragon egg to the Faceless Men in exchange for the assassination of Balon (which Jaqen H'ghar has probably taken to Oldtown).

Victarion is pretty interesting too, in my opinion. He has Euron's dragon horn, which will supposedly control Dany's dragons yet will kill whoever blows it. He's dead set on marrying Dany, yet has to fight a massive sea battle before he can get to Meereen. And he now has his own Red Priest.

Aeron/Damphair...yeah, they should've probably cut him.

Kimon
04-14-2015, 05:37 PM
Unless they're trying to surprise people for some reason, Arianne wasn't cast at all. Every other major character in Dorne was except her, so maybe they'll merge her with one of the Sand Snakes so the audience isn't suddenly introduced to 57 Dornish characters simultaneously.


There are only three Dornish characters that matter - the Viper, Arianne, and Doran - in that order. The Viper is already dead. If they weren't going to include Arianne continuing the Dorne plot is pointless. If they want to keep the cast concise, don't add the other Sand Snakes, none of them have done anything of significance. If they thought it would be too confusing why Arianne would be rebellious against her father, but less so the daughters of the Viper, then make Arianne a daughter of Oberyn instead of Doran. This would be like a wot show cutting Aviendha.

I actually like the Iron Islands subplot. Not necessarily the kingsmoot stuff--but they can get around that easily by saying "Euron's the eldest, he's the new king."

But Euron especially is one of my favorite characters in the books, despite very little screen time, no PoVs, and the fact that we know very little about him. But he's a mysterious pirate who's been everywhere, including Asshai and supposedly even Valyria. There are all kinds of hints that he somehow knows the future. As of aDwD, he's currently attacking the Reach, Oldtown, and Highgarden itself. Perhaps most significantly, he seems to have traded a dragon egg to the Faceless Men in exchange for the assassination of Balon (which Jaqen H'ghar has probably taken to Oldtown).

Victarion is pretty interesting too, in my opinion. He has Euron's dragon horn, which will supposedly control Dany's dragons yet will kill whoever blows it. He's dead set on marrying Dany, yet has to fight a massive sea battle before he can get to Meereen. And he now has his own Red Priest.

Aeron/Damphair...yeah, they should've probably cut him.

I thought that Euron and Victarion were both equally filler. Damphair struck me as by far the most useful of the three, especially due to the contrast between him and Melisandre.

The Unreasoner
04-15-2015, 12:34 AM
I wonder what predictions we can make about the general outline GRRM has in mind for the last two books by extrapolating from the changes GoT has made.

If Mance really is dead, that may mean that Ramsay's letter was more true than not and that Stannis is dead as well. Which is too bad - he's one of my favorite characters, way better than the primary triad off awfulness that is Tyrion, Jon and Dany. And maybe Dorne really is important to the story, and not just GRRM jerking off. Which is nice to know, since they are only reluctant subjects of the Iron Throne and this may mean they get some measure of indepence. If the popular theory that Jon takes the throne and marries Dany comes to pass, I will vomit, but attention to Dorne's storyline might make that less likely, or it could just be a convenient source of conflict after Stannis is gone. And I suppose we can conclude that Aegon really is only a mummer's dragon, possibly a child of a prostitute from Lys who inherited her coloring, possibly the son of some Blackfyre. Although why GRRM spent such time with him I'll never know. I originally thought he was an impostor (though I doubt he knows it) and that he would wind up ruling Westeros; justified to the reader by considering his ability, education, and sense of duty. Though why Varys lied to Kevan, I have no idea; though it doesn't really seem like GRRM ever had a clear vision for the story as a whole.

rand
04-15-2015, 01:13 AM
I think the general theory regarding Aegon is that he'll marry Arianne and take over most of southern Westeros, including King's Landing. He'll sit on the Iron Throne for a bit until Varys pops in to say that Aegon's a fake, at which point Dany will have arrived to take over his lands anyway.

Stannis probably won't die during the Battle at Winterfell, but I doubt he survives much longer. Once he's gone, Jon will be the natural inheritor of the North.

As to whether or not GRRM has a clear vision...assuming the above plays out, Jon will rule the North, the Wall, the Iron Islands (through whichever of Theon or Asha becomes their next ruler), the Riverlands (possibly through Robb's potential son), and the Vale (thru Sansa). Dany would rule King's Landing, Dorne, the Reach, the Stormlands, and the Westerlands (thru Tyrion). And assuming all that (roughly) happens, Jon and Dany simply have to form an alliance of "ice and fire" in the final book to take on the Others.

fdsaf3
04-15-2015, 12:12 PM
As someone who hasn't read the books, I wonder how people who have read the books feel about the TV show advancing the plot of the books past what has been published.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that the TV show is largely faithful to the plot of the books thus far. Maybe there have been some changes or tweaks here or there, but in broad strokes they have been similar.

Based on what I've read (mostly this Vanity Fair (http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2015/03/game-of-thrones-tv-show-will-spoil-books) article), there's a chance that book 6 will be published by the time production starts for events in the show which occur in that book. If that happens, and it's a big if, at least the show can remain within confines of the books for another season after this one.

But as mentioned in the VF article, there's no chance that the 7th book will be published in time for the TV show to keep stride. There will for sure be events revealed in the show that will spoil events in the books. Of course, GRRM will try and write the books to offer surprises and whatnot for fans who read the books all the way through. But the fact remains that the show will spoil for sure one book (with a good chance that it will spoil two).

So, my question: how do people who have read the books feel about this?

Davian93
04-15-2015, 12:16 PM
I figure its the only way we'll ever get the ending given GRRM's complete lack of urgency, age and apparent health.

fdsaf3
04-15-2015, 12:51 PM
So, couple of follow-up questions:

1. If GRRM doesn't finish the series for whatever reason (gets burned out, dies, whatever), would you be satisfied with the ending of the show being delivered via TV show?

2. As fans of the books, do you view the show as

A) entirely unrelated to the books, i.e. the books are the only source of canon information and should be treated as such,

B) Supplemental to the books, i.e. it provides new perspective, but the source is still the books,

C) Superseding the books, i.e. the books are a foundation for the show, but the show adds additional information to established events,

D) Something else entirely.

Sorry for the awkward phrasing of the question. To my knowledge, this is the first time that something like this has happened (massively popular books series gets translated into another medium before the book series was finished; new medium overtakes the old one in establishing new material).

I'm just fascinated by how fans of the books must feel about this turn of events. Hence my weird questions.

Terez
04-15-2015, 01:26 PM
1. To an extent.
2. B.

Kimon
04-15-2015, 03:59 PM
Considering the increasingly wide gap in years between books, I imagine that most readers have felt that it was all but inevitable that GRRM could never keep pace with the show even when he had a five book head start at the time of the show's beginning. It took him six years between Feast of Crows and Dance of Dragons - that last book came out the same year as season one of the show. Since then the show has put out now five seasons and GRRM has put out nothing. In the same stretch Sanderson has published, I think, 6 books, and Stephen King has put out 5 novels and three novellas. GRRM seems more retired than writer at this point. Maybe Winds of Winter will get published before season 6, maybe. I'd still be amazed if a Dream of Spring (or whatever he calls it by that point) gets published before 2024. He's just 66, a year younger than Stephen King, but let's be blunt, I'd be not at all surprised if King plugs out another 20 or so books before he dies, GRRM seems unlikely to finish just these last two to finish off asoiaf. Of course, on the other hand, since it's quite clear that his last two books will be quite different from the show, if he does ever finish them, they should still generate quite a bit of interest even if/when released after the seasons with which they are at least tenuously connected.

rand
04-15-2015, 10:03 PM
I personally won't care much when the show overtakes the books. I think GRRM has said he could only give the producers a general outline, as even he doesn't know the details yet. That's just how he writes apparently. So while the bullet points might be the same, the show and the book will probably be pretty different.

I don't really care about spoilers anyway. I don't read to find out what happens so much as how it happens.


To answer Fdsaf's questions:
1) I can't say I'd be satisfied really, but I'd be more satisfied with having the show's conclusion, rather than GRRM's family hiring another author to finish the series for him.
2) B

The Unreasoner
04-16-2015, 02:22 AM
I look at the books and the show as two different entities. Neither canon supersedes the other.

Though the show is obviously better crafted for its medium. And, frankly, better crafted overall. I actually like Tyrion in the show, and can tolerate Dany. Jon is still pretty fucking boring. I like Catelyn in the show a lot, while I was indifferent to her in the books. Cersei is great too. The show is well written, well acted, and the production value is great. Aside from a few nauseating scenes, most of which are inherited from the books; though the Aryan Dany crowdsurfing outside Yunkai and the scene where Jamie rapes Cersei (which I actually missed the first time, since I skipped it. I knew a sex scene between the gross couple was coming, and those egg things on Joffrey's eyes already grossed me out. I actually thought the backlash was from people misinterpreting the scene, like the director said. But it's clearly a rape, and not in keeping with the natures of either character) don't seem to be so easily dismissed.


For the books, I have no idea what the hell is happening. Is it really a story about feudal politics in a fantasy world? There doesn't seem to be an underlying plot or central conflict. Sure, the Others are bad; but for all the time GRRM spends on the nature and significance of the conflict with them, they might as well be just another feudal military power. And if 'A Song of Ice and Fire' really is just referring to Jon with his stuff and Dany with hers, and possibly (or, who am I kidding, probably) their union of some sort, I am going to be seriously ticked. I don't really care that it is so clumsily foreshadowed, I care that it's boring. They're boring. Jon and Dany, the least complex characters in the primary and secondary ranks, are Top Shit? Why? What is their mandate? The theology isn't defined well enough to claim some sort of divine mandate. And the sociology/political science concerns that might come up in a question about mandate are only ever mentioned in passing, albeit with all the artificial weight GRRM can bestow upon them. Why should we care who rules Westeros? Hell, why should his characters even care? If there is a underlying theme in the books concerning 'right to rule', it's one of pragmatic submission to tactical superiors. Not of Targaryen/Valyrian entitlement.

Ozymandias
04-17-2015, 03:17 PM
it STILL hasn't happened despite both groups being basically in place 2.5 books ago.

In GRRM's defense, one of those books didn't concern that plotline AT ALL, and very deliberately so. Its really like 1.5 books...

Davian93
04-18-2015, 09:46 AM
In GRRM's defense, one of those books didn't concern that plotline AT ALL, and very deliberately so. Its really like 1.5 books...

And 15 years or waiting.


Its sad because I really like the first 3 books as they are fantastic (albeit quite dark). Its just a shame he went totally off the rails after that. There's a great book hidden in Feast for Crows and Dance With Dragons....there's also a ton of stuff that'd be great in a aSoIaF encyclopedia sadly.


The "Jaime Goes to the Riverlands" portion of Feast is really great...lots of amazing character building, etc. There's even a good story hidden in Brienne's never ending journey and Sansa Walks Down a Mountain...they just drag on forever and that feeling is magnified by the half-decade plus wait between books.

Kimon
04-19-2015, 09:06 PM
Well, there certainly won't be any worry of spoilers this year.

Kimon
04-19-2015, 10:37 PM
Did Tam decide to do raisings again? I'm suddenly an Ancient.

rand
04-19-2015, 11:58 PM
Episode 2...nothing really wrong with it, but a lot of it just kind of seemed weird to me:

We're gonna introduce you to the House of Black and White...well, no, maybe some other time.

But we'll introduce you to Dorne...yeah, not really.

I'm not really sure why Arya had to wait several days to get in the house. I guess Jaqen being in Braavos means he won't be in Oldtown. Also, what's up with the weird box the Dornish sent Cersei? I mean, did Cersei reset the whole thing for Jaime just so it would be dramatic for him?

There were a lot of cool scenes, but one of my favorites was Shireen and Gilly. The fact that they're talking about greyscale might hint at the fact that the theorized plague of greyscale will happen at some point in Westeros.

GonzoTheGreat
04-20-2015, 02:13 AM
Did Tam decide to do raisings again? I'm suddenly an Ancient.
Could be the 2013 Raising. There have been some occasional delays, after all.

Davian93
04-20-2015, 07:28 AM
Episode 2...nothing really wrong with it, but a lot of it just kind of seemed weird to me:

We're gonna introduce you to the House of Black and White...well, no, maybe some other time.

But we'll introduce you to Dorne...yeah, not really.

I'm not really sure why Arya had to wait several days to get in the house. I guess Jaqen being in Braavos means he won't be in Oldtown. Also, what's up with the weird box the Dornish sent Cersei? I mean, did Cersei reset the whole thing for Jaime just so it would be dramatic for him?

There were a lot of cool scenes, but one of my favorites was Shireen and Gilly. The fact that they're talking about greyscale might hint at the fact that the theorized plague of greyscale will happen at some point in Westeros.

Nothing wrong with it?!?

IT HAD DOCTOR BASHIR IN IT AS DORAN MARTELL!!!!!!


Awesome, awesome casting!!! So underrated as an actor!!!!!

Sure, he's physically completely different than the book description but he's just got that awesome vibe about him that makes you feel threatened even when he's just sitting there. He nailed my impression of Doran (like a curled up viper really waiting to strike) from the books. He was also one of my favorite ST characters of all time along with Colm Meaney so seeing Alexander Siddig act again is always awesome.

They are moving along quite quickly from the books and seemingly improving quite a bit on the various storylines. Sending Varys in place of Illryio is brilliant as he's a fan favorite and it cuts down on that character growth.

Getting rid of Ariane Martell pisses me off but whatever...we've got Dr. Bashir to whoop it up now so its all good.

Kevan Lannister's actor also nailed his part. I'm guessing they've basically handed him Casterly Rock in the show instead of making Kevan just some wealthy lord. Though technically Casterly Rock would go to Tommen through Cersei I'd imagine (maybe they're going with only direct male descendants can inherit or something and Tyrion is out of the running for obvious reasons as is Jamie so it devolves to Kevan as the younger brother?) Or maybe he's just hanging out there. Making him Lord of Casterly Rock would make his character more interesting and give him more power at least...not that he needs it given he's commander of all Lannister forces apparently.

Kimon
04-20-2015, 04:37 PM
Kevan Lannister's actor also nailed his part. I'm guessing they've basically handed him Casterly Rock in the show instead of making Kevan just some wealthy lord. Though technically Casterly Rock would go to Tommen through Cersei I'd imagine (maybe they're going with only direct male descendants can inherit or something and Tyrion is out of the running for obvious reasons as is Jamie so it devolves to Kevan as the younger brother?) Or maybe he's just hanging out there. Making him Lord of Casterly Rock would make his character more interesting and give him more power at least...not that he needs it given he's commander of all Lannister forces apparently.

The books did, in my opinion, a much better job of explaining his annoyance at Cersei. She slighted him, offering the Hand and various other positions to others rather than him, leading him to point out just what a psychotic little sh*t Joffrey had been, and that he, her father, and just about everyone else thought that the best thing that could be done would be to keep her as far as hell from the other children to keep her from fracking them up too. Then he left. In the show, all we have is a vague assumption that apparently he must know about how much she messed up Lancel, as she hasn't done anything else to piss him off, and indeed, in general, show-Cersei is far more likable and sympathetic than book-Cersei. All that however begs the question - will he come back and eventually be Hand, thus necessitating his assassination for putting things back in order? Because how? In the books he isn't invited back until after Cersei's imprisonment, but with Varys now off gallivanting the hinterlands with Tyrion, who exactly, and for what cause, is going to be in place to shank him? The Martells?

Does anyone have a clue where Littlefinger and Sansa are going in the show? Riverrun? Trying to get a glimmer of what his end game in the books was difficult enough, in the show his actions seem even more nonsensical. I still can't decide if he is a brilliant tactician actually playing a long game, or just a haphazard opportunist operating on whim and trying to convince himself and others that he actually has a clue what his next move is.

Daekyras
04-20-2015, 05:08 PM
Nothing wrong with it?!?

IT HAD DOCTOR BASHIR IN IT AS DORAN MARTELL!!!!!!


Awesome, awesome casting!!!

.

I freaking loved that. I saw his character from the side and thought "they could not have gotten that more wrong" and then when I saw who it was I went "screw looks. Woooooooo"

rand
04-21-2015, 12:32 AM
Oh, I have nothing against the casting for Doran. I thought it was awesome. It was just the fact that our "introduction" to Dorne lasted about 30 seconds that felt off to me.


Regarding the heir to Casterly Rock...in the books, at least, when all's said and done, I think Tyrek may be the heir. He's the kid who went missing during the riot in King's Landing. Which was forever ago, but the fact that his name keeps getting brought up has lead a lot of people to believe that Varys has him hidden somewhere. But with Kevan dead, Jaime in the Kingsguard, Tyrion in exile, Cersei Tommen Myrcella set to die, Lancel in the Faith, and some other minor Lannisters killed in battle with Robb, I think only one random Lannister has to die before Tyrek becomes the heir and Varys can pull him out of his hiding place. Then again, Varys in the books may not know that Tyrion will likely return with Dany at some point.


Does anyone have a clue where Littlefinger and Sansa are going in the show? Riverrun? Trying to get a glimmer of what his end game in the books was difficult enough, in the show his actions seem even more nonsensical. I still can't decide if he is a brilliant tactician actually playing a long game, or just a haphazard opportunist operating on whim and trying to convince himself and others that he actually has a clue what his next move is.
Considering Littlefinger orchestrated the entire downfall of House Stark and plunged the Seven Kingdoms into a five-way civil war over the fact that Catelyn was taken from him, I'd say he has a pretty good idea what he's doing.

Figbiscuit
04-21-2015, 06:15 AM
I saw the first season but after that haven't been watching the show, we don't get the channel it airs on in the UK and I can't be bothered with buying the box sets..my OH has expressed an interest in it though so maybe we will find some perfectly legal and above board method of watching it online..

But you guys are making me want to read the books again, and I NEVER thought that would happen, the last book royally pissed me off.

Daekyras
04-21-2015, 07:05 AM
I saw the first season but after that haven't been watching the show, we don't get the channel it airs on in the UK and I can't be bothered with buying the box sets..my OH has expressed an interest in it though so maybe we will find some perfectly legal and above board method of watching it online..

But you guys are making me want to read the books again, and I NEVER thought that would happen, the last book royally pissed me off.

sky atlantic

The Unreasoner
04-22-2015, 02:07 PM
Am I the only one who watched episodes 3 and 4?

I was going to ask something about Littlefinger's plotline, but what is the protocol for spoilers?

Davian93
04-22-2015, 03:07 PM
Am I the only one who watched episodes 3 and 4?

I was going to ask something about Littlefinger's plotline, but what is the protocol for spoilers?

Wait until those episodes air to the real world through non-torrented means.

The Unreasoner
04-22-2015, 10:52 PM
Wait until those episodes air to the real world through non-torrented means.
I didn't torrent them, but I see your general point.

I'll ask the question in a vague enough way that it won't give away anything.

Wherever Littlefinger is taking Sansa, it is not safe. Which basically is everywhere but the Eyrie, but we know they were heading west, so no spoilers there.

Would it be out of character for Littlefinger to leave Sansa in a place where it is almost certain that she will die (or suffer serious harm of some sort)? And how good is Littlefinger at assessing relative military positions? Are those positions substantially changed from the books?

Figbiscuit
04-23-2015, 07:56 AM
sky atlantic

Yes. Therein lieth the problem. I refuse to pay for Sky :)

GonzoTheGreat
04-23-2015, 09:12 AM
I refuse to pay for Sky
In Russia, Sky pay you.

Terez
04-26-2015, 12:32 AM
I didn't torrent them, but I see your general point.

I'll ask the question in a vague enough way that it won't give away anything.

Wherever Littlefinger is taking Sansa, it is not safe. Which basically is everywhere but the Eyrie, but we know they were heading west, so no spoilers there.

Would it be out of character for Littlefinger to leave Sansa in a place where it is almost certain that she will die (or suffer serious harm of some sort)? And how good is Littlefinger at assessing relative military positions? Are those positions substantially changed from the books?

I imagine Sansa will get out of it the same way "Arya"/Jeyne did in the books. We've already seen hints of that just with the way Theon looks at her. It's just a question of how much abuse she will suffer before she escapes.

The main thing I don't like about this plot change is that it's all rather unsophisticated for Littlefinger, not to mention his well-known reluctance to hand her over to anyone who is likely to gain control of her.

Kimon
04-26-2015, 09:09 PM
I imagine Sansa will get out of it the same way "Arya"/Jeyne did in the books. We've already seen hints of that just with the way Theon looks at her. It's just a question of how much abuse she will suffer before she escapes.

The main thing I don't like about this plot change is that it's all rather unsophisticated for Littlefinger, not to mention his well-known reluctance to hand her over to anyone who is likely to gain control of her.

It simplifies plotlines, but yeah, it makes very little sense strategically. Not that what he did in the books seemed to always have any rhyme or reason, but here even less so. The Boltons already are holding on by a thread, taking a fake Arya with the blessings of the Lannisters made perfect sense for them. Taking Sansa without? Perhaps Lord Bolton sees this as a way to try to win back the good graces of the Northern Lords by turning against the Lannisters again. But that goodwill hardly will stand for Ramsey torturing her. And how does this benefit Littlefinger? If he is just trying to make the world burn, maybe? But as a path to power? Maybe trying to create so much chaos that in the end everyone else is dead, but his plans at least in the books sort of made sense.

Margaery and Tommen consummating the marriage also is problematic. This certainly will make her trial more difficult, as they won't have to debate whether her horse broke her hymen innocently, I suppose, but seems an odd change.

Seems also abundantly clear that along with no Arianne, also now definitely no Aegon or Jon Connington.

Terez
04-26-2015, 11:17 PM
Margaery and Tommen consummating the marriage also is problematic. This certainly will make her trial more difficult, as they won't have to debate whether her horse broke her hymen innocently, I suppose, but seems an odd change.
There are also major changes coming for this plotline, which will be apparent in the next episode. They seem to be....merging a lot of plotlines.

Seems also abundantly clear that along with no Arianne, also now definitely no Aegon or Jon Connington.
Definitely not, unless they plan on introducing him later. But as he was likely a red herring in the first place, I suspect they just cut him altogether to save time.

rand
04-27-2015, 11:07 PM
Sending Sansa to the Boltons just seems like a bad decision for the show. First of all, there's no way Littlefinger would either a) not know anything about Ramsay, or b) not bother to find out anything about Ramsay. Secondly--and I haven't watched episode 4 yet--assuming they just replace Jeyne Poole's role with Sansa, that will be a major step back for Sansa's character. Instead of learning to play the game of thrones with Littlefinger in the Vale, Sansa will just get beat up yet another time in her life by yet another bully. It will be cool seeing her team up with Theon, but it will be more about Theon's character growth, not Sansa's. All that said, obviously I have no idea what will really happen. Maybe Sansa will do more in Winterfell than Jeyne did.

I kind of like the fact that they're chnaging so much in the series, though that's mostly because the books won't really be spoiled at all. I don't mind spoilers really, but if the show keeps distancing itself from the books at this rate, the last few seasons will barely resemble the last two books at all.

We've now heard greyscale mentioned in every episode this season, I think. A lot of people seem to think there will be a plague of greyscale in the books soon, but I think that would mostly be spread from Jon Connington. If he's cut, who else will get it? It doesn't seem like Shireen's will spread at this point.

Terez
04-28-2015, 02:08 AM
Sending Sansa to the Boltons just seems like a bad decision for the show. First of all, there's no way Littlefinger would either a) not know anything about Ramsay, or b) not bother to find out anything about Ramsay.
Some have suggested he was just keeping up his facade. It's obvious he cares about Sansa; if he pretends to know nothing about Ramsay then his choice to bring her there isn't too baffling. In this scenario perhaps Littlefinger comes to the rescue when Ramsay strikes and thus gains Sansa's true love. (minor ep. 4 spoiler)

Or perhaps it's as he said and he's betting on Stannis. Perhaps it's both. The showrunners said that his #1 love is power and what he does here is a power play, but that doesn't rule out the rescue fantasy. It just means he's willing to risk Ramsay seriously hurting Sansa before he can make his power play and become Warden of the North by marriage or maybe even king, with the true love of his dream girl's younger and prettier daughter.

Secondly--and I haven't watched episode 4 yet--assuming they just replace Jeyne Poole's role with Sansa, that will be a major step back for Sansa's character. Instead of learning to play the game of thrones with Littlefinger in the Vale, Sansa will just get beat up yet another time in her life by yet another bully.
Some see it as more of an acceleration than a step back. GRRM chose to do it one way, but it's not entirely unfeasible that Sansa could have learned the necessary lessons in the time she has already spent with Littlefinger.

I just read GRRM's new Sansa chapter yesterday. I like his way too, but I don't mind the show's way....so far.

I kind of like the fact that they're chnaging so much in the series, though that's mostly because the books won't really be spoiled at all. I don't mind spoilers really, but if the show keeps distancing itself from the books at this rate, the last few seasons will barely resemble the last two books at all.
To an extent that's true. To an extent, not. He's given them the ending, so it will be more or less the same ending. As fans they will want to keep the core of it true to his vision. It's like Brandon finishing WoT; it has RJ's ending, and a few other elements, but for the most part it probably doesn't resemble what RJ would have written at all. The showrunners, like Brandon, don't have all the detail, and GRRM can't give them all the detail because he hasn't come up with all the detail yet, being a self-described gardener.

We've now heard greyscale mentioned in every episode this season, I think. A lot of people seem to think there will be a plague of greyscale in the books soon, but I think that would mostly be spread from Jon Connington. If he's cut, who else will get it? It doesn't seem like Shireen's will spread at this point.
I was thinking Tyrion. I wasn't entirely sure at the end of ADWD that he was free of it.

rand
04-28-2015, 10:48 PM
If Tyrion does get greyscale, it won't be at Chroymane (sp?) as that would have come before Volantis. It would be interesting if he gets it elsewhere, though.

Kimon
04-28-2015, 11:26 PM
If Tyrion does get greyscale, it won't be at Chroymane (sp?) as that would have come before Volantis. It would be interesting if he gets it elsewhere, though.

Are we really familiar with how it is transmitted? Connington seemed to think he got infected by touching Tyrion, who had touched the stoneman, if I recall correctly. Or was it the water? The other explanation we've had was that it mostly effected children, and was caused by cold, damp climates. I almost wonder if greyscale is somehow connected to dragons, hence the scales. Could Shireen have gotten it from touching the stone dragons in Dragonstone?

If Targaryen blood does protect against infection, how do we account for this...

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Maegelle_Targaryen

Terez
04-29-2015, 12:48 AM
If Targaryen blood does protect against infection, how do we account for this...

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Maegelle_Targaryen
You're posting cross-thread. But my best guess would be dominant and recessive genes.

Kimon
05-03-2015, 09:17 PM
Well their explanation of how Shireen got greyscale was interesting. I suppose that anecdote serves the dual purpose of rendering needless that scene of the stonemen with Tyrion and Connington.

As for the other major changes - Will it just be Loras rather than Margaery on trial? How will they accuse Cersei without the Kettleblacks? They presumably can't use Lancel, as in that case he'd have to be on trial too. And Selmy? Did they just decide that his role was redundant with Tyrion and Jorah coming?

Oh, and on an aesthetic note, the Sand Snakes are all a real letdown. All their Dorne changes seem really stupid. I feel like this season is a perfect example of why a wot show would be a catastrophe.

Terez
05-03-2015, 10:15 PM
Will it just be Loras rather than Margaery on trial?
Probably. They have no way to accuse Margaery of anything. I am wondering if they will still send Loras to capture Dragonstone; that might be how he gets out of jail.

How will they accuse Cersei without the Kettleblacks? They presumably can't use Lancel, as in that case he'd have to be on trial too.
I imagine Lancel can use the excuse that he was ordered by his queen. He might also throw in the incest thing, and the wine he was ordered to give Robert. All the things Lancel mentioned when he saw Cersei again at the beginning of the season.

And Selmy? Did they just decide that his role was redundant with Tyrion and Jorah coming?
I'm hoping they're not dead. We'll see.

Oh, and on an aesthetic note, the Sand Snakes are all a real letdown. All their Dorne changes seem really stupid. I feel like this season is a perfect example of why a wot show would be a catastrophe.
It doesn't have to be done badly.

Kimon
05-03-2015, 10:55 PM
I'm hoping they're not dead. We'll see.



Grey Worm's wounds may not have been fatal, but I don't see how Selmy could survive. I suppose they could have a red priest(ess) pass by and resurrect him, but that would be rather cheesy. One of the few major changes that the show has made that I thought was an excellent decision was not bringing back Zombie Catelyn. Hopefully they won't decide to have a Zombie Selmy either.

A few other complaints - Should we assume that the show has decided that nothing more need be done with the Riverlands? No hostage Edmure? No Blackfish? They really should have kept Jaime's normal Riverlands arc. That was a great story, and great for his growth as a character. And keeping Ellaria in place of introducing Arianne was silly. if they wanted to keep Bronn and give him something to do, you have him help in freeing Tyrion and have him go with Tyrion instead of Varys.

Terez
05-03-2015, 11:00 PM
I think they are saving the Riverlands as material for next season. It was mentioned that the Blackfish escaped, and I doubt they'll ditch Edmure altogether.

In other words, next season is probably going to build on some stuff that's already in the books. I think they will only be catching up this season, with a few exceptions (like Tyrion joining Dany), and a few changes.

Kimon
05-03-2015, 11:15 PM
I think they are saving the Riverlands as material for next season. It was mentioned that the Blackfish escaped, and I doubt they'll ditch Edmure altogether.

In other words, next season is probably going to build on some stuff that's already in the books. I think they will only be catching up this season, with a few exceptions (like Tyrion joining Dany), and a few changes.

Part of the problem that they are producing is with pacing. If they leave the Riverlands for next season, what will Dany do? Her arc already is tedious. Bringing in Connington and Aegon would have allowed for something else to happen both in her arc, due to the entry of the Dornish embassy, and in westeros, with Aegon's arrival. Without all that her story will rapidly proceed from tedious to mind-numbingly dull. Getting rid of the Iron Islander bits was fine. That was all extraneous. But all the pretender and Dornish bits helped her story as much as they helped the main story. The prospects for next season are already worrisome enough, as at some point they will have to bring back the other awful arc - Bran...

Terez
05-03-2015, 11:17 PM
I think Bran will be interesting, as he'll basically be able to spy on whatever is happening all over Westeros. He might get to do some flashbacks too.

rand
05-03-2015, 11:52 PM
I kind of feel like the producers don't really care about Dorne that much. They seem more concerned with what Jaime and Bronn are doing there than with the scenes that are actually from the books. I hope Dorne becomes more involved soon. But as it is, it almost seems like an afterthought. The producers know it will be important later when the Sand Snakes get sent to King's Landing, but they don't seem too concerned with giving the Dornish any extended scenes for the time being.

I hope Selmy isn't dead either, but I doubt he's still alive. I think a lot of people have predicted he'll die early in Winds anyway. Still, he's one of my favorite characters. I wish he'd could've had a better death than this.

Davian93
05-04-2015, 06:48 AM
Grey Worm's wounds may not have been fatal, but I don't see how Selmy could survive. I suppose they could have a red priest(ess) pass by and resurrect him, but that would be rather cheesy. One of the few major changes that the show has made that I thought was an excellent decision was not bringing back Zombie Catelyn. Hopefully they won't decide to have a Zombie Selmy either.

A few other complaints - Should we assume that the show has decided that nothing more need be done with the Riverlands? No hostage Edmure? No Blackfish? They really should have kept Jaime's normal Riverlands arc. That was a great story, and great for his growth as a character. And keeping Ellaria in place of introducing Arianne was silly. if they wanted to keep Bronn and give him something to do, you have him help in freeing Tyrion and have him go with Tyrion instead of Varys.

Nah, Selmy got saved from the obvious killing wound to the throat so he will somehow survive along with Grey Worm. Both will, without antibiotics, completely heal up and be fine in like 2 episodes...just like in real life where odds are both would die (or be invalids for months to years) even with modern medical care.

Davian93
05-04-2015, 06:54 AM
I kind of feel like the producers don't really care about Dorne that much. They seem more concerned with what Jaime and Bronn are doing there than with the scenes that are actually from the books. I hope Dorne becomes more involved soon. But as it is, it almost seems like an afterthought. The producers know it will be important later when the Sand Snakes get sent to King's Landing, but they don't seem too concerned with giving the Dornish any extended scenes for the time being.

I hope Selmy isn't dead either, but I doubt he's still alive. I think a lot of people have predicted he'll die early in Winds anyway. Still, he's one of my favorite characters. I wish he'd could've had a better death than this.

They already killed off by far the most interesting Dornish character in Oberyn. Maybe Doran (alexander siddig) could be interesting if they, I dont know, GAVE HIM SOME FUCKING DIALOGUE!!!) but lets keep going with the boring Sand Snakes and their amazing "accents that keep going in and out" act.

One interesting thing is just how far they've gone away from the source material at this point. They are completely off the reservation now so we have no real way of guessing what is going to happen.


Also, I didn't think it was possible, but Dany's show plotline is even more boring than she is in the books. How is that even possible? Most boring character in the history of literature...even worse on the show that Sansa "Monotone Data from ST:TNG impression" Stark

Davian93
05-04-2015, 09:14 AM
I guess Barristan is actually dead dead...per outside articles and comments by the actor/show.

Guess that means he wont be a big part of Winds of Winter then.

A shame as I liked his character...he was basically the one interesting part of the Dany storyline.

Kimon
05-04-2015, 03:55 PM
I guess Barristan is actually dead dead...per outside articles and comments by the actor/show.

Guess that means he wont be a big part of Winds of Winter then.

A shame as I liked his character...he was basically the one interesting part of the Dany storyline.

Selmy seemed to take two serious wounds, the hamstringing he could have survived, albeit would have likely left him crippled. That second wound though, the dagger thrust into his abdomen, looked like it was directly into his lungs. That one was fatal even without the finishing cut to his throat that was interrupted. Anything short of Nynaeve just happening to pass by, and he seemed definitely dead, and that preview scene certainly looked like him on a funeral bier with Dany mourning him.

Grey Worm looked like he probably took a thrust to the kidney, and a bunch of other superficial wounds. He should survive, unless he bleeds out before he is found and treated. There was no similar bier for him, so seems that we're supposed to assume that he pulls through.

Another aside -

Anyone else wondering if the show will decide to have the little kid, Olly, shank Jon instead of Bowen Marsh?

Terez
05-04-2015, 04:12 PM
Anyone else wondering if the show will decide to have the little kid, Olly, shank Jon instead of Bowen Marsh?
I suppose it's possible. I was thinking Mallister, but they could use Thorne too. They all hate wildlings. I hope it's not Olly; I like him.

Kimon
05-04-2015, 04:24 PM
I suppose it's possible. I was thinking Mallister, but they could use Thorne too. They all hate wildlings. I hope it's not Olly; I like him.

The show apparently added an actor for the role for this season, so it's possible that it still will be Bowen, but his part so far has been so small that without looking it up, I hadn't realized that he wasn't completely cut. Olly actually strikes me as an improved assassin. Bowen in the book at least had a slightly just reason for his act, Olly's though would be even better, as he was not only orphaned by the Thenns but they presumably ate his parents. If anyone has a just reason to be a Brutus, it's Olly.

Terez
05-04-2015, 05:27 PM
The show apparently added an actor for the role for this season, so it's possible that it still will be Bowen, but his part so far has been so small that without looking it up, I hadn't realized that he wasn't completely cut. Olly actually strikes me as an improved assassin. Bowen in the book at least had a slightly just reason for his act, Olly's though would be even better, as he was not only orphaned by the Thenns but they presumably ate his parents. If anyone has a just reason to be a Brutus, it's Olly.
This has already half-played as Ygritte shot his father (the Thenns just ate him) and then he shot Ygritte to save Jon. So I can see it and you're probably right, especially considering that he'll be listening in on all Jon's plans. I just don't want it to happen. :p

One of the fansites linked to this video when he was cast:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ff_kalDZfzU

I love that video.

Southpaw2012
05-04-2015, 06:05 PM
I guess Barristan is actually dead dead...per outside articles and comments by the actor/show.

Guess that means he wont be a big part of Winds of Winter then.

A shame as I liked his character...he was basically the one interesting part of the Dany storyline.


By that logic, should we assumed fhat "Aegon" isn't big in the books since it looks as if he's been cut from the show?

Terez
05-04-2015, 06:56 PM
I personally assumed Aegon was a red herring before I knew he was cut from the show. It would be bad storytelling to introduce such a major character so late in the game.

I meant to say earlier that I am becoming more sure that Melisandre will resurrect Jon. They basically created that scene with her taking Gendry from the Brotherhood solely to introduce her to the concept. Of course, that wouldn't be necessary in the books, but it is helpful for the show.

Davian93
05-05-2015, 06:56 AM
By that logic, should we assumed fhat "Aegon" isn't big in the books since it looks as if he's been cut from the show?

Um...I would. He always screamed Mummers Dragon anyway. He's clearly a Blackfryre bastard that Varys dug up from somewhere because of his color. I do feel bad for Jon Connington who is probably in the dark on the whole thing and being purely used as part of one of Vary's backup plans (literally plan C since plans A & B were Viserys and Danerys). How's it feel to be Vary's #3, Jon?

Kimon
05-05-2015, 03:47 PM
Um...I would. He always screamed Mummers Dragon anyway. He's clearly a Blackfryre bastard that Varys dug up from somewhere because of his color. I do feel bad for Jon Connington who is probably in the dark on the whole thing and being purely used as part of one of Vary's backup plans (literally plan C since plans A & B were Viserys and Danerys). How's it feel to be Vary's #3, Jon?

There was nonetheless a lot, indeed one could well argue more, investment in his well-being and upbringing than in that of Dany and Viserys.

Aegon was surrounded with the best of the left-over loyalists - Connington and Ashara Dayne certainly seem better guardians and tutors than Illyrio. Moreover, not only is his claim stronger than Dany's, but Varys knows both are in the field, and by placing Tyrion with him, and sending him to Dany, how is he doing anything but lending greater validity to the boy's legitimacy and hence his claim? The knocks against him still stand - the mentions of the Blackfyres and the lateness of his inclusion. Yet I'm still not completely convinced that we should have written him off in the books. He does feel a bit, due to that late arrival on the scene, to have been GRRM's way of testing the waters as to whether he could realistically dump Dany in medias res. That, along with his absence in the show certainly lend credence to him being nothing but a fraud, but how does that change the fact that he is nonetheless doing what Dany refuses to do?

Either Dany should get off her lazy as*, ditch the pointless Slaver Bay, and finally start heading for Westeros, or she should just quietly die, and let Jon, Jon, and Tyrion inherit those three dragons that are clearly wasted on her, then draw straws for who should marry Arianne Martell and become King of Westeros.

Davian93
05-05-2015, 03:50 PM
I like the cut of your jib and if you had a newsletter, I would subscribe.

Kimon
05-10-2015, 09:16 PM
Our plague carrier seems to be travelling in the wrong direction.

Connington bringing the plague to Westeros has potentially dire consequences for the stability of an already unstable realm, but does it really matter if Jorah brings greyscale to Meereen? The only people that need to leave that city alive are Tyrion and Dany. Of course, maybe everyone turning into stone zombies will finally give Dany a reason to leave.

At least Sam and Gilly finally started talking about Oldtown, so hopefully they and Maester Aemon will finally head out next episode. Not sure how they are going to justify sending Aemon though with Melisandre now heading south rather than threatening to sacrifice those with king's blood.

Still think I'm right about Olly...

Terez
05-10-2015, 09:56 PM
I have to wonder about Melisandre too. Perhaps she sees something in her fires on the journey and decides to return. Perhaps she's involved in Sansa's rescue, more directly than she was involved with "Arya" in the books. What I find interesting is that the Battle of Winterfell is shaping up to be the season finale (the last two episode names have not yet been released, unless I missed something). It's hard to see them leaving it on a cliffhanger like GRRM did.

Kimon
05-10-2015, 10:40 PM
I have to wonder about Melisandre too. Perhaps she sees something in her fires on the journey and decides to return. Perhaps she's involved in Sansa's rescue, more directly than she was involved with "Arya" in the books. What I find interesting is that the Battle of Winterfell is shaping up to be the season finale (the last two episode names have not yet been released, unless I missed something). It's hard to see them leaving it on a cliffhanger like GRRM did.

On wikipedia's page for this season they have nothing for the last episode, but they have episode 9 titled as "The Dance of Dragons". There strikes me as a few possibilities for major events in the 10th episode - The Battle of Winterfell, the Poisoned Locusts (though perhaps that will be ep. 9), or Jon's "assassination". I suspect perhaps the locusts in ep. 9, with Winterfell and Jon's "murder" in 10.

rand
05-11-2015, 12:04 AM
Definitely looking like Olly will kill Jon. I don't know that it matters much if Melisandre is present or not. Jon may warg into Ghost first even in the book, before she figures out how to save him. It's interesting that Jon's going to Hardhome, as it seems as though something strange is going on there in the book (dead things in the water, etc). Maybe even Rickon will pop up again.

So...Brienne is trusting some random old guy who changes out water basins (or something) to help her rescue Sansa? I'm not sure I like Brienne being there anyway. I'd rather see Theon somewhat redeem himself saving Sansa on his own vs. Brienne and Pod doing it.

Interesting idea to have Jorah get greyscale, and in Valyria no less (though it does take some of the mystique away from the place--they basically sail through in 10 minutes while reciting a Dr. Seuss poem).

Not much to say about Dany, other than them really pushing the fact that she's Mad King Aerys come again. Her decision to marry Hizdahr seemed pretty abrupt, but whatever.

Davian93
05-11-2015, 07:16 AM
I have to wonder about Melisandre too. Perhaps she sees something in her fires on the journey and decides to return. Perhaps she's involved in Sansa's rescue, more directly than she was involved with "Arya" in the books. What I find interesting is that the Battle of Winterfell is shaping up to be the season finale (the last two episode names have not yet been released, unless I missed something). It's hard to see them leaving it on a cliffhanger like GRRM did.

Yes, it appears that HBO actually has competent writers so...

Davian93
05-11-2015, 08:09 AM
Couple thoughts on the show...

1. They are really amping up the Dany is the Mad King Reborn storyline...makes me wonder how "good" Dany will be in the books. "Hmm, Ser Barristan just died so I will honor his memory and advice by doing the exact opposite. Feels like GRRM & Co are turning yet another trope on its head by making the character we're nominally supposed to be hoping becomes the "good queen" turns out to be an idiot who sucks. "Hmm, zero evidence but I think I'll feed random high-ranking people to dragons...that doesnt scream Mad King at all, nope, no siree"

2. They slammed us over the head with the "Jon is a Targaryen" sledgehammer again. People that have never read a page of the books are asking me if that's true now thanks to all the foreshadowing. Maester Aemon's comments to him last night again showed it...along with his "A Targaryen alone is a dangerous thing" then the camera pans right over to focus on Jon. Okay, we get it, he's a Targaryen.

3. Interesting that Jorah gets Greyscale instead of Connington...should be fun to see how that plays out.

4. FINALLY...more Doran Martell coming up next week. Cant wait to see Alexander Siddig act the hell out of that part again.

5. Briene is pretty much the dumbeset person on earth. Hmm, I know I've never met you and have no idea of your loyalties, Mr. Cleans the Bed Pans Guy but could you help me send a message to Sansa Stark, a highborn girl of 7 and 10 with auburn hair and blue eyes...(Please HBO writers, have her start using that phrasing just to piss off the readers even more)

6. Ramsay and Roose are just hilarious to watch...utterly evil but both pulls off their characters perfectly. Roose's "fatherhood" speech last night was such a perfect contract to Stannis's speech last week. Of course, it scares me a bit because it showed what an utter evil asshole Roose is and it made Stannis into a really good guy...and we know what happens to good guys in aSoIaF. Given that we all suspect/know that Stannis isn't actually the chosen one from lots of hints in the books, I'm starting to worry about Stannis surviving the upcoming battle.

Terez
05-11-2015, 11:57 AM
2. They slammed us over the head with the "Jon is a Targaryen" sledgehammer again. People that have never read a page of the books are asking me if that's true now thanks to all the foreshadowing. Maester Aemon's comments to him last night again showed it...along with his "A Targaryen alone is a dangerous thing" then the camera pans right over to focus on Jon. Okay, we get it, he's a Targaryen.
Yeah, my word (on Malazan (http://forum.malazanempire.com/topic/27404-game-of-thrones-season-5/page__view__findpost__p__1185636)) was "unsubtle".
There was another big foreshadowing on Jon Targaryen in this episode. They're really beating us book readers over the head with it, though of course it's all very subtle for the show-only folks. But just as Aemon said that about it being a terrible thing for a Targaryen to be alone in the world, Jon walks in, and the camera takes its time focusing on him. Very unsubtle for us.
Since you and I used almost the same words to describe it, I'm sure the majority of viewers noticed it.

The focus was not really all that slow but it was slow enough to be dramatic.

I also love that Tyrion got to see Drogon, though I suspect that will eventually be Jon's dragon.

Kimon
05-11-2015, 04:29 PM
I also love that Tyrion got to see Drogon, though I suspect that will eventually be Jon's dragon.

Drogon seems, both due to his name and the activities that might well close this season, destined to be Dany's. Not sure how to divide up the other two, but I also can't help but wonder if Drogon is the actual stallion that will mount the world. The Dothraki prophecy clearly implied that it should be a man, but why call a man a stallion? And he, like Rhaego, is Dany's "son".

Terez
05-11-2015, 09:04 PM
Drogon seems, both due to his name and the activities that might well close this season, destined to be Dany's.
I don't see it. The associations are pretty weak; she named the others after her brothers, one of whom was also the namesake for her son. She rode Drogon but I'm pretty sure she didn't bond with him, though I'm sure she has some sort of bond with all three as their "mother".

Terez
05-14-2015, 02:43 PM
Episode 9, which is usually the season climax, is called "Dance of the Dragons" as Kimon noted earlier. The IMDB cast listing includes a "Pit Announcer", so I'm guessing that the climax will include Dany's scene with Drogon. Eps 9 and 10 also feature Stannis, Roose, Ramsey, Davos, and a "Baratheon General". "Yara" is also cast for both episodes. They are building up the Battle of Winterfell, but will we see it this season? I suspect Jon will be stabbed in ep. 10. Sam and Aemon should be gone by then; we can probably expect to see Jon order them off in the next episode (ep 6).

Terez
05-17-2015, 09:01 PM
Somehow I didn't think they would go through with the consummation of Sansa's marriage. Guess I was wrong. Also, I didn't think of the possibility they would get Margaery on false testimony.

Kimon
05-17-2015, 09:09 PM
The Jeyne Poole plotline was disturbing enough, hopefully with it now being Sansa they will at least have the decency to avoid the scenes of Theon prepping her for Ramsey. That, and I really hope they let Sansa disembowel Ramsey before she and Theon make their escape. And on that note, shouldn't the show be bringing back Asha (I can't recall what silly name the show gave her) soon, or are they completely dropping her too?

Oh, and the Dornish plot just keeps getting worse. Myrcella not even wounded? Not to mention that Jaime and Bronn showing up right when the Sand Snakes were abducting (assassinating?) Myrcella was quite the suspension of disbelief. For the thousandth time, whoever wrote that plotline instead of Arianne deserves to be fired.

Maergery potentially facing the headsman for perjury is also really lame.

Terez
05-17-2015, 09:14 PM
The Jeyne Poole plotline was disturbing enough, hopefully with it now being Sansa they will at least have the decency to avoid the scenes of Theon prepping her for Ramsey. That, and I really hope they let Sansa disembowel Ramsey before she and Theon make their escape. And on that note, shouldn't the show be bringing back Asha (I can't recall what silly name the show gave her) soon, or are they completely dropping her too?
As I mentioned earlier, "Yara" is cast for eps 9 and 10.

Kimon
05-17-2015, 09:21 PM
As I mentioned earlier, "Yara" is cast for eps 9 and 10.

The show really should have changed Osha's name instead if they thought viewers would have been confused. Yeah, let's change the semi-main character's name, not the chick who no one has seen or cared about since the second season...

Terez
05-17-2015, 10:20 PM
The show really should have changed Osha's name instead if they thought viewers would have been confused.
That would have required thinking ahead.

Terez
05-18-2015, 01:46 AM
Apparently Theon is not going to get intimate with Sansa.

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/05/17/game-thrones-sansa-ramsay-interview

Davian93
05-18-2015, 08:59 AM
The Jeyne Poole plotline was disturbing enough, hopefully with it now being Sansa they will at least have the decency to avoid the scenes of Theon prepping her for Ramsey. That, and I really hope they let Sansa disembowel Ramsey before she and Theon make their escape. And on that note, shouldn't the show be bringing back Asha (I can't recall what silly name the show gave her) soon, or are they completely dropping her too?

Oh, and the Dornish plot just keeps getting worse. Myrcella not even wounded? Not to mention that Jaime and Bronn showing up right when the Sand Snakes were abducting (assassinating?) Myrcella was quite the suspension of disbelief. For the thousandth time, whoever wrote that plotline instead of Arianne deserves to be fired.

Maergery potentially facing the headsman for perjury is also really lame.

Yup, Dorne has been a massive let down. The Sand Snakes are an utter joke and just annoying more than anything. They cut out Arianne for this? Seriously?!?

Also, is Bronn a dead man walking now? That dagger was probably poisoned, right? This is Dorne after all. Also, the fight choreography for the sand snakes was embarrassingly bad. Just pathetic all around.

Davian93
05-18-2015, 09:00 AM
That would have required thinking ahead.

I'm guessing it was GRRM's call then...given his lack of ability in that area.

Daekyras
05-18-2015, 09:06 AM
I'm guessing it was GRRM's call then...given his lack of ability in that area.

Shhhh. Don't bring out the GRRM defenders.

Davian93
05-18-2015, 10:38 AM
another thought...I didn't think it was possible for tv Cersei to be dumber than book Cersei but the show has proved me wrong. No Cersei...no chance that Lancel is gonna open his mouth ever. Totally a good plan going here Cersei. Also, really smart to give Littlefinger the entire North along with the Vale. He's a good guy...you can trust him.

GonzoTheGreat
05-18-2015, 11:20 AM
But trust is the color of a dark seed growing. Trust is the color of a heart’s blood flowing. Trust is the color of a soul’s last breath. Trust is the color of death.Seemed appropriate.

Terez
05-18-2015, 01:40 PM
I'm rereading the books and I just read the part where Littlefinger tells Ned, "Not trusting me was the smartest thing you've done since you got off your horse."

Terez
05-18-2015, 02:31 PM
Also, I have been reading the articles online about last night's episode and it appears to be the most hated episode in the history of the show. Even show-only folks recognize that the Dorne plotline is bad, though that complaint comes in second to the rape of Sansa.

Davian93
05-18-2015, 02:47 PM
Also, I have been reading the articles online about last night's episode and it appears to be the most hated episode in the history of the show. Even show-only folks recognize that the Dorne plotline is bad, though that complaint comes in second to the rape of Sansa.

I would agree with both. The rape was completely unnecessary for the plotline. Everyone already knows Ramsay is an ahole...no need for that to occur to reinforce. But hey...you "shocked" the viewers again. Its up there with the book version which was just gratituitous and disgusting...a scene that turned off a lot of fans that were already tiring of GRRM's schtick.

The Dorne plotline has been surprisingly awful. Maybe let Siddig get some scenes, eh? Nah, lets have it be all Sand Snakes, all the time.

Sarevok
05-19-2015, 01:57 PM
On the Dorne plotline: I didn't get why the Sand Snakes got arrested too. All they did was fight fight 2 intruders that snuck into Highgarden and one of them hit the son of Lord Martell. How does that warrant arrest? They should be getting medals..
I disagree with Sansa rape being unnessary, though (from a plotline perspective, obviously). If they're going in this direction, with marrying her to Ramsay, then it's the only logical outcome. Not going there would just seem silly after they've gone to all those lengths to show Ramsay's cruelty.
Also, Alfie Allen (Theon/Reek) has been awesome this season. :)

Davian93
05-19-2015, 03:16 PM
Well, Doran and Hotah were having them watched so they were probably under surveillance the entire time they were moving towards Myrcella so he knew they weren't there to defend her and Trystan (is that the son's name...can't remember at this point). The armed action was just enough of an excuse to take them into custody to "sort everything out".

They basically just rolled in and arrested them and Jamie/Bronn to clear the place out.

Terez
05-24-2015, 09:12 PM
I guess I was wrong about Tyrion being a gag photo. His enslavement was rather short-lived. I'm guessing the scenes from the next episode regard Dany's promise that she would have Jorah killed if she ever saw him again.

I'm disappointed by the way they did Aemon's end. I'm guessing Sam will still be sent to Oldtown since there was foreshadowing in that direction, but it will be at least a couple of episodes before Jon sends him off, since the next episode still has him at Hardhome. I suppose they'll send him off just before Jon gets stabbed?

Kimon
05-24-2015, 09:56 PM
Holy crap was that awful.

Sam and Gilly were talking about Oldtown and the Citadel earlier this season, so I assumed that they were still going to go, but after today's episode I can't help but wonder if that was just a non sequitur. Oh, and apparently in the show cold doesn't preserve. No big deal, right? That couldn't have carried any significant implications, could it?

The King's Landing bit was a bit better, but I still think the crazy star-thumper's actions would seem less moronic if they were at least charging Margaery with a real crime and not just for her refusal to throw her brother under the bus.

Dorne and the Dany bits were predictably stupid, but I was surprised that they don't seem to be putting any effort into rehabbing Theon.

I know these were the books where things started going south, but the two best storylines were Jaime in the Riverlands and Arianne in Dorne. Getting rid of both of those arcs was a horrific mistake.

Terez
05-24-2015, 10:06 PM
Sam and Gilly were talking about Oldtown and the Citadel earlier this season, so I assumed that they were still going to go, but after today's episode I can't help but wonder if that was just a non sequitur.
I doubt it. They'll probably send Sam off right before Jon gets stabbed, which will presumably be in ep 10, after Stannis sends Melisandre back to the Wall to protect Shireen.

Oh, and apparently in the show cold doesn't preserve. No big deal, right? That couldn't have carried any significant implications, could it?
I must have missed something.

Dorne and the Dany bits were predictably stupid...
I'm not usually a fan of sexposition but I liked the Bronn-Tyene scene. Dorne was definitely an improvement from what has gone before.

Kimon
05-24-2015, 10:13 PM
I must have missed something.


It was something Aemon said before he died. He commented that he thought that coming south, and the warmth likely killed him, that the cold had preserved him. Considering the Others, that seemed something worth keeping.

Terez
05-27-2015, 06:21 AM
I am looking forward to Tyrion being able to teach Dany everything he knows about dragons—he knows more about them than Viserys did, perhaps more than anyone but the maesters—but I don't know if I should hope much for that since we didn't see much of his expertise in the show. (I can't recall any of it, but I think there was at least one scene where he showed off his knowledge of dragons.) In any case, we probably won't see much of it this scene because Dany is about to take off, presumably. We might get one scene of dragontalk before she goes.

Daekyras
05-27-2015, 10:02 AM
The big question I have about the last episode is why they make Cersei out to be so stupid.

I know it's been simmering for a little while this season but from the first second Lancel showed up shouldn't she have realised he was bad news.

In the first episode when he confronted her I was 100% certain that she would kill him or have him killed. But instead she just lets a festering boil develop when she could easily have Lanced (lancelled!) it at any time.

Her look of shock when he walked out was terrible. She is not that stupid.

Terez
05-27-2015, 11:20 AM
Like Tywin said, she's not as smart as she thinks she is. She dismissed Lancel's confession because she thinks of Lancel as weak, no threat to anyone. Seeing him turn religious just confirmed that impression in her mind.

Ozymandias
05-27-2015, 03:13 PM
The big question I have about the last episode is why they make Cersei out to be so stupid.

I know it's been simmering for a little while this season but from the first second Lancel showed up shouldn't she have realised he was bad news.

In the first episode when he confronted her I was 100% certain that she would kill him or have him killed. But instead she just lets a festering boil develop when she could easily have Lanced (lancelled!) it at any time.

Her look of shock when he walked out was terrible. She is not that stupid.

I think the point is because she IS so stupid. I think I remember Littlefinger saying (might be only in the books but not much of a spoiler) that the only things Cersei has going for her are looks, money, and her name, and that all of them will fade or are not really hers to begin with.

If you really think about Cersei's actions, in both print and television, they are almost invariably stupid. Or not stupid, but shortsighted. She's an excellent schemer with no thought of consequences, and that basically is her character to a T. She kills Robert without truly thinking through the succession (does someone know about the incest?) and is only bailed out by Sansa being a moron and Littlefinger's scheming. She delays paying the Iron Bank despite the obvious economic havoc it will cause. She militarizes the Faith for the short term goal of screwing over Margaery without thinking about how it will impact her own sins.

I'm more surprised at your surprise, in fact. Cersei hasn't made a reasonable decision in almost her entire life, it seems, starting with her getting her prophecy told in the S5E1 flashback.

Kimon
05-27-2015, 03:18 PM
This might be a lingering problem from the changes that they made in Lancel's story compared to the books. He should be in Darry right now, married to Gatehouse Ami, and only return to King's Landing and joining the Faith Militant after being confronted by Jaime. It was Osney Kettleblack confession's, under torture, that implicated her in the books, not Lancel.

Speaking of the lost Riverlands arc, was there any point to casting someone to play the Blackfish? He was another good character from the books that was mostly lost in the shuffle...

Terez
05-27-2015, 04:37 PM
Blackfish was seen leaving the hall at the Red Wedding on the show. I assume they'll be going to the Riverlands next season, along with the fleshing out of the Iron Islands plot. Many people assumed that plot was cut, but I doubt it. They were pretty firm on doing only 7 seasons until recently, when they started allowing that they might do 8. I think next season they'll be using as much material from AFFC-ADWD as possible while waiting for GRRM to put out another book—one last reprieve. We might even see Aegon.

Davian93
05-27-2015, 05:14 PM
Blackfish was seen leaving the hall at the Red Wedding on the show. I assume they'll be going to the Riverlands next season, along with the fleshing out of the Iron Islands plot. Many people assumed that plot was cut, but I doubt it. They were pretty firm on doing only 7 seasons until recently, when they started allowing that they might do 8. I think next season they'll be using as much material from AFFC-ADWD as possible while waiting for GRRM to put out another book—one last reprieve. We might even see Aegon.

We're already beyond Dance on many of the plotlines. A shame that GRRM is an utter joke who can't finish a novel.

Terez
05-27-2015, 05:42 PM
I think the only place we've truly gone beyond ADWD is the Dany-Tyrion meeting. We'll probably be caught up on Dany's plotline by the end of the season, but the show decided to move the meeting up to before Dany takes off on Drogon. Not a bad plan; she can name Tyrion her Hand and he'll get another taste of ruling when she takes off.

Other things like Sansa, Jojen, etc. are just alt-universe changes rather than progressing past what GRRM wrote, really.

Daekyras
05-27-2015, 05:42 PM
I think the point is because she IS so stupid. I think I remember Littlefinger saying (might be only in the books but not much of a spoiler) that the only things Cersei has going for her are looks, money, and her name, and that all of them will fade or are not really hers to begin with.

If you really think about Cersei's actions, in both print and television, they are almost invariably stupid. Or not stupid, but shortsighted. She's an excellent schemer with no thought of consequences, and that basically is her character to a T. She kills Robert without truly thinking through the succession (does someone know about the incest?) and is only bailed out by Sansa being a moron and Littlefinger's scheming. She delays paying the Iron Bank despite the obvious economic havoc it will cause. She militarizes the Faith for the short term goal of screwing over Margaery without thinking about how it will impact her own sins.

I'm more surprised at your surprise, in fact. Cersei hasn't made a reasonable decision in almost her entire life, it seems, starting with her getting her prophecy told in the S5E1 flashback.

I'm surprised at how stupid they make her appear. In all of the previous series and episodes she is shown as being intelligent and crafty.

As viewers she appears to us as being short sighted and many possible dangers can be seen in how she acts but she never looks downright foolish. The most recent episode makes her look like a flat out mentally challenged person.

take little finger for example. He is on a very dangerous precipice but I don't ever forsee a point where he is standing accused of something and looks so foolish when blatantly obvious evidence he knew existed is brought out to him.

p.s. from last night's episode lady elana (margery's grandmother) came across very weak. And stupid. Her blatant threat of little finger is an request to end up dead.

Kimon
05-27-2015, 08:28 PM
p.s. from last night's episode lady elana (margery's grandmother) came across very weak. And stupid. Her blatant threat of little finger is an request to end up dead.

Olenna's conversation with the High Sparrow was the one that struck me as clumsy. Margaery had done a good job of winning over the common people through acts of charity, so it is unlikely that there would be a pool of common hostility to be exploited by the fanatics against them, so coming off as a ignorant snob seemed poor tactics, especially considering how petty and victimless their crimes are.

Rand al'Fain
05-27-2015, 10:58 PM
Sounds like people are getting disgusted by all the shock value of season 5. Part way through season 3, I'm already at my limit of the "shock value". I like the Arya plot line at least. I almost feel sorry for Theon, but if the Stark's had captured him, he would have been killed for his treachery. Catelyn I have lost respect for, with releasing Jaime. I understand she worries for her daughters, but come on. Joffery is still a little shit, though Margaery seems to be able to manage him. Cersei, yeah. Her only redeeming quality is her love for her children. Tyrion and, as much as I despise him, Tywin are right. She's not half as clever as she thinks she is. Also, it seems she'll go for any family member not her brother (Tyrion) or father. They made Sansa older in the series, and she seem's more daft than the book. At least in the book she is still fairly young. Here she looks 16-17 years old and should at least have some common sense. I do feel pity for her, but still.

Anyways, I have dropped it. Although I do like the Arya plot as a whole, Dany, Tyrion is good, Lady Olenna is a hoot, and Jon Snow, I'm just tired of all the "shock value" already. A good author should not need shock value to keep readers going. Look at Tolkien's works. Hell, even Robert Jordan's works. Jordan had some shock value, but it was no where near as prevalent and not the crutch of his series. I just can't bring myself to go any further. Well, back to my reread of WOT.

Ozymandias
05-28-2015, 10:43 AM
I'm surprised at how stupid they make her appear. In all of the previous series and episodes she is shown as being intelligent and crafty.


When? Name any major plot point involving her character which wouldn't be characterized as foolish. Again, she is an excellent schemer. She is characterized as such in the novels; someone good at obtaining power but not good at wielding it. That is because as long as she is not making the decisions, other people are forced to deal with the implications of her mistakes. Now that she has power, no one is around to blunt the impact of her poor decision making.

She has been repeatedly bailed out by others; Tyrion, Tywin, Littlefinger (indirectly). Even in a micro sense, she makes terrible decisions that are shortsighted a selfish. Think about the Battle of Blackwater, when she calls for Joffrey to come hide out with her in "safety" in the Red Keep, a decision which on its face will keep him from getting hurt/killed in the battle, but which in actuality severely compromises the defense of Kings Landing and almost allows Stannis to get inside the walls prior to Tywin's arrival.

Ozymandias
05-28-2015, 10:45 AM
Sounds like people are getting disgusted by all the shock value of season 5. Part way through season 3, I'm already at my limit of the "shock value". I like the Arya plot line at least. I almost feel sorry for Theon, but if the Stark's had captured him, he would have been killed for his treachery. Catelyn I have lost respect for, with releasing Jaime. I understand she worries for her daughters, but come on. Joffery is still a little shit, though Margaery seems to be able to manage him. Cersei, yeah. Her only redeeming quality is her love for her children. Tyrion and, as much as I despise him, Tywin are right. She's not half as clever as she thinks she is. Also, it seems she'll go for any family member not her brother (Tyrion) or father. They made Sansa older in the series, and she seem's more daft than the book. At least in the book she is still fairly young. Here she looks 16-17 years old and should at least have some common sense. I do feel pity for her, but still.

Anyways, I have dropped it. Although I do like the Arya plot as a whole, Dany, Tyrion is good, Lady Olenna is a hoot, and Jon Snow, I'm just tired of all the "shock value" already. A good author should not need shock value to keep readers going. Look at Tolkien's works. Hell, even Robert Jordan's works. Jordan had some shock value, but it was no where near as prevalent and not the crutch of his series. I just can't bring myself to go any further. Well, back to my reread of WOT.

Tolkien wrote three relatively short books (or six, I suppose). And given all the flak and anguish around the way RJ was incapable of keeping his plots moving, I'd argue maybe he could have used a little more shock and awe moments.

GonzoTheGreat
05-28-2015, 11:12 AM
Tolkien had Thorin and Boromir. If GRRM had written those books, the Trolls would've eaten the entire party in the Hobbit before they even reached the mountains, and then he'd have been stalling for years while trying to figure out how to get the story back on the rails.
JRR had Narg, who, based on the reactions, was a very big shock too.

Daekyras
05-28-2015, 11:41 AM
When? Name any major plot point involving her character which wouldn't be characterized as foolishl.

Name any Major plot point of any character that couldn't be picked apart and over analysed to make them seem foolish?

Hindsight is 20/20.

Is she not as smart as she thinks she is? Most definitely.

Is she frequently short sighted and overly petty? Yes.

is she an idiot? No.

I am not saying she is a genius or a master manipulator. I am saying she is not mentally retarded. Which is how she comes across when she sees lancel in the last episode.

If you pick up that she is an idiot from watching the show I watch or reading the books I have read than I must be reading them wrong.

Terez
05-28-2015, 11:44 AM
In the books it's very clear that Cersei begins to descend into insanity after Joffrey's death. Many book readers have been complaining that this isn't as obvious on the show as it should be.

Even still, clever people do stupid things all the time.

rand
05-28-2015, 12:36 PM
Speaking of the lost Riverlands arc, was there any point to casting someone to play the Blackfish? He was another good character from the books that was mostly lost in the shuffle...
I was kind of wondering what they'd do with him too. In the books, I kind of have a theory that the Blackfish is taking Jeyne Westerling to the Wall, with her (possibly) carrying Robb's heir. If Jon is dead enough to release him from the Night's Watch, then they'd need a new Lord Commander. Maybe the Blackfish would be a good candidate? Obviously this won't play out like this in the show, but the Blackfish could still end up there somehow.

In the books it's very clear that Cersei begins to descend into insanity after Joffrey's death. Many book readers have been complaining that this isn't as obvious on the show as it should be.
Yep. Plus the fact that she knows Maggy's prophecy is true after Joffrey's death, so everything she does is based on that prophecy in some way, whatever the cost may be. The show gave us a part of the prophecy in episode one, but hasn't really made any reference back to it, that I remember.

I also found one of Cersei's lines to Tommen interesting. Something along the lines of "I'd burn cities down to protect you." I'm not sure if this was a quote from the books or not, but there's a theory that Winds will end with Cersei burning King's Landing to the ground with wildfire, as she is the new "Mad King."

Ozymandias
05-28-2015, 04:00 PM
I was kind of wondering what they'd do with him too. In the books, I kind of have a theory that the Blackfish is taking Jeyne Westerling to the Wall, with her (possibly) carrying Robb's heir. If Jon is dead enough to release him from the Night's Watch, then they'd need a new Lord Commander. Maybe the Blackfish would be a good candidate? Obviously this won't play out like this in the show, but the Blackfish could still end up there somehow.

We know where Jeyne is, in the books. She is most definitely not with Brynden Tully

Ozymandias
05-28-2015, 04:12 PM
Name any Major plot point of any character that couldn't be picked apart and over analysed to make them seem foolish?

Tywin. Bran. I'd go so far as to say Stannis' decisions have been far more defensible than Cersei's.

Yes, all the POV characters make some mistakes. Most of them seem to occasionally make a decent decision though. Not so Cersei, who hasn't made a single decent decision to our knowledge so far.


I am not saying she is a genius or a master manipulator. I am saying she is not mentally retarded. Which is how she comes across when she sees lancel in the last episode.

If you pick up that she is an idiot from watching the show I watch or reading the books I have read than I must be reading them wrong.

Yes... she did not consider the consequence of her actions vis a vis allowing the Faith Militant to have her incestuous lover as one of their own. Hence her look of "oh shit" - otherwise known as looking like you've been struck by lightning full of torture and misery.

And Terez, I'm not sure she's going insane in the novels. She's paranoid, with good reason, and the pressure of ruling is causing her to drink and thus exacerbating her poor rule. I honestly don't see much of a difference between her actions pre- and post-Joffrey's death with the exception that she's actually in a position to rule post-Joffrey, and thus exposed to the consequences of her own shortsightedness.

She's always been vicious and lacking in actual, decisive decision-making ability. Its just that now, no one else is around to clear up her mess (e.g. Tyrion rallying the troops after she orders their king to go cower in a basement, basically).

Daekyras
05-28-2015, 04:21 PM
Tywin.
Now I KNOW you are playin me.

Well done sir, well done.

Davian93
05-28-2015, 04:53 PM
My favorite Cersei decision in the books is where she makes Aurane Waters (sp?) the Lord High Admiral or whatever and give him funding to build a new fleet. She "seduces" him, helps build his fleet and then he just ups and leaves with the ships to be a pirate.

Just so much fail all around.

Kimon
05-28-2015, 09:04 PM
My favorite Cersei decision in the books is where she makes Aurane Waters (sp?) the Lord High Admiral or whatever and give him funding to build a new fleet. She "seduces" him, helps build his fleet and then he just ups and leaves with the ships to be a pirate.

Just so much fail all around.

Giving Aurane the fleet was foolish, but everything else pales in comparison to reviving the Faith Militant and pissing off the Iron Bank.

rand
05-28-2015, 10:12 PM
We know where Jeyne is, in the books. She is most definitely not with Brynden Tully
The Blackfish most likely took Jeyne with him when he escaped from Riverrun. When Jaime gets there, the girl he sees as Jeyne is almost certainly her sister (I forget her name), as she's described as looking too young and very skinny. Catelyn always noted Jeyne's wide hips, which would be good for having kids.

FWIW, GRRM has said that Jeyne will be in the prologue of Winds, though probably not as the PoV character.

rand
05-28-2015, 11:16 PM
I just noticed that GoT has already started looking for season 6 cast members (from IGN--bolding is my guesses):


Pirate,**man in his*40’s to late 50’s. He’s “an infamous pirate who has terrorized seas all around the world. Cunning, ruthless, with a touch of madness.” He’s a dangerous-looking man. A very good part this season. Euron Greyjoy

Father.*Aged 50’s to 60’s, he’s one of the greatest soldiers in Westeros- a humorless martinet, severe and intimidating. He demands martial discipline in the field and in his home. It’s described as*“a very good part” for next year and that he’s “centrally involved” in a*protagonist’s storyline. Randyll Tarly

Mother,*in her*50’s. She’s a sweet, plump, and adoring mother, and has a soft spot for one of her children who benefits from her decency. Mrs. Tarly

Sister,*in her*early 20s. She’s a kind, friendly and unpretentious woman. Sam's sister

Brother,*in his early to mid-20’s . Athletic, a good hunter, an excellent swordsman, manly, not particularly bright but the favourite child of the father. Dickon Tarly (Sam's brother)

Priest,*in his*40’s or 50’s. A gruff ex-soldier who found religion. Now a no-nonsense rural priest who ministers to the poor of the countryside. He’s salt-of-the-earth man who has weathered many battles. Elder Brother of Quiet Isle, or Brother Meribald, or a combo of the two--something to do with Sandor, in either case.

Leading Actress,*in her*early 40’s, she’s an elegant actress with a traveling theatre company. Fun, charismatic, rum-drinking actress in the troupe. No idea--no one that would be an actress comes to mind

Priestess.*Mid-20’s to early 30’s. Any ethnicity- she’s beautiful, intense, and magnetic. Not sure

Fierce Warrior,*a tall man in*30’s or 40’s with a powerful physique. They’re looking for someone with “mixed ethnicity” for the role. Victarion Greyjoy, but the "mixed ethnicity" part would be a little weird.

A large boy, with an actor who is 10-12 but playing 7 or 8. He’s described as “a clever boy” who seems too large for his age. He’s big and tall but not fat.
“Characterful squat features” are a plus for this part. it’s specified that this is a one-time appearance. Not sure-I might have said Young Griff, despite the age, except it's apparently just a one appearance thing.

12 year old boy, with brown hair and blue eyes. He needs to use a Northern accent. He has scenes where he has to spar with a wooden sword. The length of the role isn’t specified. Not sure

7 year old boy*with dark brown hair, a narrow face and green eyes. He also has a Northern accent. He also spars with the wooden sword, so it’s safe to assume it’s the same scene. This role is similarly open-ended, the description only stating that the character is being ‘introduced.’ Not sure

It's possible the actress, priestess, and fierce warrior (and others) are part of the Young Griff storyline, though there doesn't seem to be a casting of Young Griff himself.

I'm glad they're casting Euron. They can cut all the Kingsmoot stuff, but Euron's one of the most intriguing characters IMO. If the Fierce Warrior isn't Victarion, I'd expect Euron to sail to Meereen himself, or else have Asha/Yara go.

I doubt they'd include Sam's entire family if he wasn't going south (ie Oldtown) at some point soon.

Davian93
05-29-2015, 09:31 AM
Giving Aurane the fleet was foolish, but everything else pales in comparison to reviving the Faith Militant and pissing off the Iron Bank.

I know but I just think that one was hilarious...she's so sure that she's seduced him and won his loyalty with her bedroom antics that she's completely oblivious that she's being played.

Kimon
05-29-2015, 11:30 AM
I know but I just think that one was hilarious...she's so sure that she's seduced him and won his loyalty with her bedroom antics that she's completely oblivious that she's being played.

If I recall correctly his resume was essentially also just pretty Targaryen hair. She did essentially the same thing with Osney, assuming that he would of course stay loyally seduced by her and never fall for or prefer the younger Margaery. Still not quite sure why they have an actress twice Margaery's age. I'd assumed that it was just so that they could have a thirty-something actress prance around naked occasionally, but considering the lack of risque scenes (beyond that one really creepy, but thankfully no nudity scene with Tommen), it seems that they just picked a far too old (and not particularly pretty or talented) actress for no apparent reason, except perhaps to make us wonder if Tommen's wife is old enough to be his mom...

Ozymandias
05-29-2015, 11:31 AM
Now I KNOW you are playin me.

Well done sir, well done.

Tywin is regarded as the most competent administrator in the Seven Kingdoms, bar none.

The Red Wedding was a stroke of brilliance, from his standpoint. He doesn't violate guestright laws, and immediately puts down the greatest threat to his grandsons' regime in one fell stroke. Sees the brilliance in allying with the Tyrells and knows how to placate them while keeping them in check, unlike Cersei.

Aside from his one blind spot as regards Tyrion (incidentally, overcoming his prejudice to allow Tyrion to rule instead of Joffrey/Cersei is another great move by Tywin), you could argue that as a decision maker, Tywin was utterly faultless.

Terez
05-29-2015, 02:00 PM
I doubt they'd include Sam's entire family if he wasn't going south (ie Oldtown) at some point soon.
It's almost certain he'll be gone by the end of this season, since he'd not likely leave the Wall after Jon's stabbing.

I read a theory somewhere that the last two roles listed are for a flashback scene with Brandon and Ned Stark.

Terez
05-29-2015, 02:02 PM
...not particularly pretty or talented...
eh?

Davian93
05-29-2015, 07:56 PM
eh?

She's got a weird face...some people don't like it and others are captivated by it. She's definitely not a traditional beauty I suppose. Personally, I think she can be quite pretty if done up right and not at all pretty if not (see her in Mockingjay for reference where she's pretty meh at best).

Amanda Seyfried gets the same reactions from lots of men due to her slightly unusual face.

Kimon
05-29-2015, 08:39 PM
She's got a weird face...some people don't like it and others are captivated by it. She's definitely not a traditional beauty I suppose. Personally, I think she can be quite pretty if done up right and not at all pretty if not (see her in Mockingjay for reference where she's pretty meh at best).

Amanda Seyfried gets the same reactions from lots of men due to her slightly unusual face.

Weird is definitely a good description for Natalie Dormer. Not unattractive, but definitely not my cup of tea. I also just am not impressed with her acting ability. Whether that's shallow or an aesthetic appraisal I suppose is open to debate. Beauty is after all certainly of the subjective more than the objective spectrum. Take for instance the two that you mention. I'd view Natalie Dormer as meh at best, but Amanda as quite pretty.

Davian93
05-29-2015, 08:56 PM
Weird is definitely a good description for Natalie Dormer. Not unattractive, but definitely not my cup of tea. I also just am not impressed with her acting ability. Whether that's shallow or an aesthetic appraisal I suppose is open to debate. Beauty is after all certainly of the subjective more than the objective spectrum. Take for instance the two that you mention. I'd view Natalie Dormer as meh at best, but Amanda as quite pretty.

Yes, yes she is. Better actress than Natalie too.

Daekyras
05-30-2015, 10:03 AM
Yes, yes she is. Better actress than Natalie too.

I know this is a ridiculous thing to say but I don't find Amanda pretty at all. She looks stupid. I don't mean that as a seven year old boy would say but I mean that something about her makes me think "she seems mentally challenged".

As for GoT, I don't find any of the actresses attractive, not cersei, Margary or sansa and only 1/3 of the sand snakes. Except, of course, for Mellisandre. Damn. She is beautiful.

Kimon
05-30-2015, 10:22 AM
I know this is a ridiculous thing to say but I don't find Amanda pretty at all. She looks stupid. I don't mean that as a seven year old boy would say but I mean that something about her makes me think "she seems mentally challenged".



Do you associate her too much with her character from Mean Girls? She looked quite a bit prettier, and smarter, with glasses in Jenifer's Body, and she made a pretty enough Little Red Riding Hood to almost make what was otherwise a truly dreadful version of that fairy tale watchable.

As for the actual GOT actresses, Lena Headey (Cersei) and Emilia Clarke (Dany) are both quite pretty. The blond hair on Lena is a bit odd compared too her usual brunette. I'm still annoyed that Fox cancelled the Sarah Connor Chronicles. Not that I was surprised, Fox does seem to relish destroying what few good things they've produced.

Daekyras
05-30-2015, 10:25 AM
Do you associate her too much with her character from Mean Girls? She looked quite a bit prettier, and smarter, with glasses in Jenifer's Body.
That's probably it. And I only saw the first twenty minutes of Jennifer body and felt like my brain might die if I kept watching. "I'm not even a back door virgin" being one notably stupid quote! (From Megan Fox I thibk)

The Unreasoner
05-30-2015, 11:28 AM
No one thinks Oona Chaplin is pretty? Or Roslyn? I thought she was gorgeous. As is the Ellaria Sand actress.

Agreed on Natalie looking weird. But I think Emilia Clark looks weird too. Something with her teeth, I think.

Rose Leslie was pretty, but I couldn't get past that accent.

Terez
05-30-2015, 11:33 AM
Rose Leslie's accent is awesome. It's funny that her accent makes her perfect for lower class parts, but she's actually from some ancient muckety-muck Scottish family and only works because she likes acting.

PS: None of your opinions about who is pretty and who is not amount to a hill of beans.

Davian93
05-30-2015, 11:54 AM
Rose Leslie is quite lovely.

Like I said (and proven by the comments so far), both Natalie Dormer and Amanda Seyfried have weird faces. Some love it, some aren't impressed. There are volumes upon volumes of research on this sort of reaction BTW and on what is considered "perfect beauty" too.

The Unreasoner
05-30-2015, 11:55 AM
Rose Leslie's accent is awesome. It's funny that her accent makes her perfect for lower class parts, but she's actually from some ancient muckety-muck Scottish family and only works because she likes acting.

PS: None of your opinions about who is pretty and who is not amount to a hill of beans.
Rose Leslie's accent is fine. Ygritte's is not as easy on the ears.

And I know my opinions on looks don't really matter. But everyone else was talking about it, and I didn't see anyone mentioning Oona Chaplin or the Roslyn actress, or even Indira Varma, who's actually been around for the past two seasons.

ETA:
Alexandra Dowling/Roslin Frey:
http://fr.web.img1.acsta.net/pictures/14/12/22/17/55/575310.jpg

Oona Chaplin/Talisa
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/47/18/78/4718788ba9103f134457a3d78944c675.jpg

And Indira Varma/Ellaria Sand:
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130726023217/gameofthrones/images/5/56/Indira_Varma.jpg

Daekyras
05-30-2015, 12:01 PM
PS: None of your opinions about who is pretty and who is not amount to a hill of beans.

no one's opinion amounts to a hill of beans. It's all in the eye of the beholder and always plays second fiddle to personality.

Davian93
05-30-2015, 12:04 PM
no one's opinion amounts to a hill of beans. It's all in the eye of the beholder and always plays second fiddle to personality.

Personality goes a long long way. Lots of girls jump way up the scale once personality is factored in...or way down depending on if they're disgusting human beings once they open their mouths.

GonzoTheGreat
05-30-2015, 12:06 PM
Personality goes a long long way. Lots of girls jump way up the scale once personality is factored in...or way down depending on if they're disgusting human beings once they open their mouths.
Cersei owns the scales and the executioner who will weigh you on it. Does that make her prettier?

Daekyras
05-30-2015, 04:20 PM
Cersei owns the scales and the executioner who will weigh you on it. Does that make her prettier?

Sexier

The Unreasoner
05-30-2015, 08:06 PM
You know, I was thinking about the Aegon role, and that of Robb's possible child in the books. Maybe they've been combined in the show somewhat, in Talisa's younger brother. A young noble leaving Volantis to conquer a swathe of Westeros? Talisa's brother may even be the legal heir to the King in the North, with or without a will (since Rickon is officially dead).

I also wanted to ask what Terez meant when she talked about Rose Leslie's accent. You meant Ygritte, right? I know I did. But the actress's actual accent is, apparently, 'the poshest' Jonathan Ross has ever heard. And it's pleasant enough, I suppose.

Terez
05-30-2015, 08:50 PM
She uses the same accent on Downton Abbey so I figured it was just her accent. Just looked up a video of her; she's got a very posh Scottish accent but there's still Scottish in it. It's probably easy for her to imitate the extreme version of that accent, much like I can easily imitate the extreme Southern accent. I hate fake Southern accents.

Rand al'Fain
05-30-2015, 09:53 PM
Yeah, some work, like the person who plays Cersei is about what I had imagined. Sansa works. The one who plays Dany works. Margaery? Not what I had imagined, I'll say that. Yggritte was fine. And same with Talisa (which is about how I imagined Faile, oddly enough).

Terez
05-31-2015, 09:10 PM
This was a top-notch episode, despite them being a little obvious with the foreshadowing. Otherwise, everything about it was good IMO.

Kimon
05-31-2015, 11:15 PM
This was a top-notch episode, despite them being a little obvious with the foreshadowing. Otherwise, everything about it was good IMO.

As much as I like Arya, I still haven't the slightest clue where her arc is going. Considering all the changes that the show has made to streamline GRRM's chaos, not all for the better, I cannot help but wish that they had decided to make a change here as well. Arya in Dorne as an ally of the Sand Snakes might have been an inventive way to improve upon that arc, while also providing a way for her to remain within the main story rather than continuing as a tangent. What exactly is the point of her training in the House of Black and White?

Terez
06-01-2015, 12:43 AM
The point is to make her a killer, and a good one. Her arc is no doubt leading back to Nymeria—GRRM called the superpack a gun on the mantle—but being a Faceless Woman for a while is good training for that experience once the time comes.

Davian93
06-01-2015, 07:05 AM
This was a top-notch episode, despite them being a little obvious with the foreshadowing. Otherwise, everything about it was good IMO.

"Don't worry, dear, I'll be out on the next boat right behind you"

Both me and my wife just looked at each other and said "Well, she's dead".

Still, it was a phenomenal episode...probably the best ever or, at worst, tied with The Blackwater for sheer awesomeness.

And that's not just due to the amazing battle scene (kudos to the Director, writers, etc for that job...just phenomenal all around). The scenes between Tyrion and Dany were great (Dany is finally worth watching now that Tyrion is around). Reek and Sansa (who finally showed she's capable of acting or at least using a non-wooden voice) as well. Cersei and Qyburn's scene was great too. Nothing bad at all in the entire episode.

The preview for next week has me really excited too...maybe Alexander Siddig finally gets some face time. And Alistar Thorne is clearly gonna fuck Jon Snow hard.


Also, poor Ser Jorah...gotta suck to first be banished into the Friendzone and then be banished for a 2nd time thanks to Tyrion's advice (which was correct of course...Jorah cant really be trusted and he's kinda unstable).

Kimon
06-01-2015, 10:14 AM
being a Faceless Woman for a while is good training for that experience once the time comes.

Here's the thing, what time? I suppose she could eventually return and go on a killing spree, but killing whom? Most of the Lannisters who deserve killing - Joffrey and Tywin - are already dead. I suppose she could kill Cersei, but why would she need any training to accomplish that? Tommen or Myrcella? What the hell have they done to deserve killing? Jaime? Why redeem him just to have Arya shank him? Ser Gregor? Unless she has some dragonglass or Valyrian steel on hand I'm not sure that she'll be able to no matter the amount of training. The Boltons and Freys? If so, Manderley and Zombie Cat, and even Mance, are certainly doing a better job of it than is she. But here's the real kicker, will it help her fight the Others?

I'm just not sure how it fits into the story. The only real possibility seems to be Cat. Giving her all this training to harden her, to steal her identity, and then use that to show her that she needs to take down the monster that her mother has become would be the kind of messed up denouement to those two arcs that I'd almost expect of GRRM...

Davian93
06-01-2015, 10:31 AM
I know the show has been (as they would say in Randland) "telegraphing" that Ollie is gonna go all Brutus on Jon Snow but what if they toss that on its head and have him murder Alistar Thorne next week so that Jon & Co can come back through the Wall (which apparently they dont sail around despite having a fleet of ocean going vessels).

Kinda hard for Jon to be resurrected given that Melisandre is far away stuck in a blizzard with Stannis...thus, is he actually gonna be murdered like in the books?

Davian93
06-01-2015, 10:33 AM
Here's the thing, what time? I suppose she could eventually return and go on a killing spree, but killing whom? Most of the Lannisters who deserve killing - Joffrey and Tywin - are already dead. I suppose she could kill Cersei, but why would she need any training to accomplish that? Tommen or Myrcella? What the hell have they done to deserve killing? Jaime? Why redeem him just to have Arya shank him? Ser Gregor? Unless she has some dragonglass or Valyrian steel on hand I'm not sure that she'll be able to no matter the amount of training. The Boltons and Freys? If so, Manderley and Zombie Cat, and even Mance, are certainly doing a better job of it than is she. But here's the real kicker, will it help her fight the Others?

I'm just not sure how it fits into the story. The only real possibility seems to be Cat. Giving her all this training to harden her, to steal her identity, and then use that to show her that she needs to take down the monster that her mother has become would be the kind of messed up denouement to those two arcs that I'd almost expect of GRRM...

I tend to think that GRRM has zero clue what to do with Arya and was using her character just to show the readers Braavos and the House of White & Black. Like alot of his other sub-plots, he got so caught up in the minutia that he forgot that it should actually matter. Just like Jaime's trip through the Riverlands was apparently just to give us a detailed briefing on the various minor Houses there like the Brackens and Blackwoods, etc. Did you know that that gristmill used to belong to House Bracken but now it belongs to House Blackwood? They bartered it for a truncheon of buttered onions and mashed nips or something.

Mort
06-01-2015, 11:04 AM
I tend to think that GRRM has zero clue what to do with Arya and was using her character just to show the readers Braavos and the House of White & Black. Like alot of his other sub-plots, he got so caught up in the minutia that he forgot that it should actually matter. Just like Jaime's trip through the Riverlands was apparently just to give us a detailed briefing on the various minor Houses there like the Brackens and Blackwoods, etc. Did you know that that gristmill used to belong to House Bracken but now it belongs to House Blackwood? They bartered it for a truncheon of buttered onions and mashed nips or something.

Seems like. I really hate that part of fantasy. World building is great, it adds to the story, but when the story's primary goal seems to be world building you just get sick of it. Too much world building going on in fantasy.

Davian93
06-01-2015, 11:31 AM
Seems like. I really hate that part of fantasy. World building is great, it adds to the story, but when the story's primary goal seems to be world building you just get sick of it. Too much world building going on in fantasy.

But I really, really really like 1500 pages on what the various Spren can do...oh and some plot added to it too I guess.

Oh, you meant GRRM.

On GRRM, I honestly wouldn't mind that level of world building as his world is truly interesting...if it came out every 2 years or so instead of just 5 novels published since he started writing aSoIaF in 1991. So 24 years (19 since GoT was published) in and we're at 5 books with Book 6 maybe coming out some time next year. Maybe.

Terez
06-01-2015, 12:06 PM
The preview for next week has me really excited too...maybe Alexander Siddig finally gets some face time.
If you didn't notice, that was actually a preview for the next two episodes combined.

Kinda hard for Jon to be resurrected given that Melisandre is far away stuck in a blizzard with Stannis...thus, is he actually gonna be murdered like in the books?
Murdered...I hate how everyone pretends he as confirmed dead. He wasn't. The scene ends with him losing consciousness. Maybe he's dead, maybe not.

Stannis will probably send Melisandre back to the Wall on account of Shireen. I imagine that, like in ADWD, Melisandre will start to see Jon in her fires and then maybe she won't give a fuck about Stannis any more. And then he'll die in the battle and there will be no kings left (except Tommen, who doesn't count).

The actress who plays Melisandre said she has another scene with Jon this season.

DahLliA
06-01-2015, 01:13 PM
Hands down the best episode so far :D

Was actually sitting on the edge of my chair during the WW attack.

And the final scene when he resurrects all of them was plain bad-ass.

Davian93
06-01-2015, 02:00 PM
If you didn't notice, that was actually a preview for the next two episodes combined.


Murdered...I hate how everyone pretends he as confirmed dead. He wasn't. The scene ends with him losing consciousness. Maybe he's dead, maybe not.

Stannis will probably send Melisandre back to the Wall on account of Shireen. I imagine that, like in ADWD, Melisandre will start to see Jon in her fires and then maybe she won't give a fuck about Stannis any more. And then he'll die in the battle and there will be no kings left (except Tommen, who doesn't count).

The actress who plays Melisandre said she has another scene with Jon this season.

Yeah, I noticed the 2 episode thing.

On the "murder", I don't assume, I just am predicting given that he got stabbed a whole bunch of times and it fits in with the Red Priestess revives him and he's free of his Oaths at that point.

Terez
06-01-2015, 02:58 PM
Simpler just to say he was stabbed since we don't know the outcome.

Daekyras
06-02-2015, 04:22 AM
Simpler just to say he was stabbed since we don't know the outcome.

He was murdered....we just don't know if he was murdered good...

rand
06-02-2015, 01:22 PM
I agree with everyone that that was a great episode. Probably the best one they've made yet, which is significant considering it's based on the two worst books in the series. I wonder if Cotter Pyke will be attacked at Hardhome like this, or if the battle was just completely made up for the show. I'm not sure where Jorah's story will go with the greyscale, but I think it's safe to say that whatever happens to him in the show will be completely different from what happens to him in the books.



I think Jon's dead. He needs to be released from his oaths to the Night's Watch if he's to play any kind of role in the politics of the Seven Kingdoms (ie, become the King in the North).

Melisandre doesn't necessarily need to be there when Jon dies (though if she still has another scene with him, maybe she will). I don't think she'd know how to resurrect him on the spot anyway. Jon will probably warg himself into Ghost (making the name quite appropriate) before Melisandre figures out how to resurrect his body--which would likely be preserved in an ice cell or something anyway, so he wouldn't necessarily look like a zombie like Catelyn does.

Terez
06-02-2015, 02:18 PM
I doubt his death would release him from his vows - meaning, I doubt he would see it that way.

rand
06-02-2015, 09:44 PM
Depends how long he's dead for. Since his own men killed him in the first place, they probably won't wait long to elect a new commander. And Melisandre either won't know how to resurrect Jon right away, or won't want to as she won't realize he's really Azor Ahai yet. So he might not have much of a choice.

Terez
06-02-2015, 10:32 PM
I still tend to doubt it because his loyalties will still lay with the Wall. And there's no trick to bringing someone back from the dead; apparently you just need faith and prayer. She's either got enough faith, or she doesn't. [Edit: scratch the faith. I just went back and watched the scene; Thoros didn't have any faith when he first resurrected Beric. He just had desperation. Still, not a trick. No reason to think it will take Melisandre some time to figure out how to do it, and waiting too long might actually make it impossible. I'm guessing if Jon wargs into Ghost, it won't be for long.]

Here's the casting listed so far for next episode. This gets updated pretty regularly, piece by piece; I have been checking it, and for example they just added Tychos some time in the last couple of days. He could be either in Braavos or with Stannis, but I suspect he'll be in Braavos for ep 9 and with Stannis for ep 10, implying a major time passage, which would allow that plotline to advance more than we might have expected.

Episode 9: The Dance of Dragons (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3866826/fullcredits?ref_=tt_cl_sm#cast)

Mereen

Tyrion, Jorah, Dany, Missandei, Daario, Hizdahr zo Loraq, Pit Announcer

Braavos

Arya, Young Braavosi, Brea (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Brea), Tychos Nestoris, Mace Tyrell, Meryn Trant, Lannister Guard [?]

Winterfell etc.

Roose, Ramsay, Stannis, Davos, Yara, Baratheon General

Dorne

Jaime, Doran, Myrcella, Trystane, Ellaria, Obara, Nymeria, Tyene

***
No castings listed for King's Landing or the Wall on episode 9, yet. Episode 10 just got updated recently too; it was pretty spare last week. Pretty safe bet Melisandre will be at the Wall by this ep so that's where I put her.

Episode 10: Mother's Mercy (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3866862/fullcredits?ref_=tt_cl_sm#cast)

Mereen

Tyrion, Dany, Daario, Missandei

Braavos

Arya, Waif

Winterfell

Stannis, Davos, Selyse, Shireen, Baratheon General, Roose, Ramsay, Myranda, Sansa, Theon, Yara, Brienne

Dorne

Doran, Ellaria, Obara, Nymeria, Tyene

King's Landing

Kevan Lannister, Varys, Pycelle, High Sparrow [Lollys was on there a few days ago but she has been removed]

The Wall

Jon, Sam, Gilly, Olly, Tormund, Alliser, Dolorous Edd, Melisandre, White Walker (incidentally, the one Jon killed, who was seen last episode after Jon killed him)

Kimon
06-03-2015, 12:10 AM
I still tend to doubt it because his loyalties will still lay with the Wall. And there's no trick to bringing someone back from the dead; apparently you just need faith and prayer. She's either got enough faith, or she doesn't. [Edit: scratch the faith. I just went back and watched the scene; Thoros didn't have any faith when he first resurrected Beric. He just had desperation. Still, not a trick. No reason to think it will take Melisandre some time to figure out how to do it, and waiting too long might actually make it impossible. I'm guessing if Jon wargs into Ghost, it won't be for long.]

Here's the casting listed so far for next episode. This gets updated pretty regularly, piece by piece; I have been checking it, and for example they just added Tychos some time in the last couple of days. He could be either in Braavos or with Stannis, but I suspect he'll be in Braavos for ep 9 and with Stannis for ep 10, implying a major time passage, which would allow that plotline to advance more than we might have expected.

Episode 9: The Dance of Dragons (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3866826/fullcredits?ref_=tt_cl_sm#cast)

Mereen

Tyrion, Jorah, Dany, Missandei, Daario, Hizdahr zo Loraq, Pit Announcer

Braavos

Arya, Young Braavosi, Brea (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Brea), Tychos Nestoris, Mace Tyrell, Meryn Trant, Lannister Guard [?]

Winterfell etc.

Roose, Ramsay, Stannis, Davos, Yara, Baratheon General

Dorne

Jaime, Doran, Myrcella, Trystane, Ellaria, Obara, Nymeria, Tyene

***
No castings listed for King's Landing or the Wall on episode 9, yet. Episode 10 just got updated recently too; it was pretty spare last week. Pretty safe bet Melisandre will be at the Wall by this ep so that's where I put her.

Episode 10: Mother's Mercy (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3866862/fullcredits?ref_=tt_cl_sm#cast)

Mereen

Tyrion, Dany, Daario, Missandei

Braavos

Arya, Waif

Winterfell

Stannis, Davos, Selyse, Shireen, Baratheon General, Roose, Ramsay, Myranda, Sansa, Theon, Yara, Brienne

Dorne

Doran, Ellaria, Obara, Nymeria, Tyene

King's Landing

Kevan Lannister, Varys, Pycelle, High Sparrow [Lollys was on there a few days ago but she has been removed]

The Wall

Jon, Sam, Gilly, Olly, Tormund, Alliser, Dolorous Edd, Melisandre, White Walker (incidentally, the one Jon killed, who was seen last episode after Jon killed him)

Potentially quite a number of people dying in episode 10 - Jon, Kevan, Stannis (?). I also see Balon mentioned in episode 10. I thought he was already dead in the show, but perhaps they're finally going to get around to showing that only in this episode. Another oddity - I see Yara listed in episode 9, but not in 10 (you have her listed in both, but the imdb page currently only in 9), but Theon and Sansa are listed in both. Are they going to kill her off? Anyone else thinking that the Onion Knight would make an excellent Lord Commander of the Night's Watch?

I'm guessing that Ser Meryn will die in episode 9, perhaps Mace Tyrell also.

Terez
06-03-2015, 12:28 AM
I forgot to add Balon since he's the only one on the Iron Islands. He was just added recently; I started this list a while ago. Yara was on both episodes when I started.

Mace is not on Arya's list, so I doubt she will kill him.

rand
06-03-2015, 01:41 AM
Huh. I completely forgot that Balon isn't dead yet on the show. If all the Iron Islands stuff takes place next season, maybe he won't die in this one, but just kind of show up so we remember he's still there.

Varys kills Pycelle as well as Kevan in the book, so he might die soon too.

Kimon
06-03-2015, 03:19 AM
Mace is not on Arya's list, so I doubt she will kill him.

I can't remember if Cersei actually ordered Ser Meryn to kill him or just hinted at it, but I definitely got the impression that Cersei didn't want Mace to make it back.

Davian93
06-03-2015, 07:34 AM
White Walker (incidentally, the one Jon killed, who was seen last episode after Jon killed him)

Totally missed this...I will have to watch the episode again now.

Terez
06-03-2015, 12:42 PM
Huh. I completely forgot that Balon isn't dead yet on the show. If all the Iron Islands stuff takes place next season, maybe he won't die in this one, but just kind of show up so we remember he's still there.
He'll definitely die. They saved it because they're saving the Kingsmoot for next season; they have to kill him at the end of this season to set that up.

Varys kills Pycelle as well as Kevan in the book, so he might die soon too.
I'm thinking, definitely. It happens right after Cersei's walk in the books. It's the first thing I thought of when the casting started going up for this ep, and the only characters listed in King's Landing were Kevan and Varys.

I can't remember if Cersei actually ordered Ser Meryn to kill him or just hinted at it, but I definitely got the impression that Cersei didn't want Mace to make it back.
Ah, good point. Perhaps Arya will save him.

Totally missed this...I will have to watch the episode again now.
It was the most egregious of the various editing errors, except perhaps it's not an editing error since he's cast for ep 10. Perhaps we are to believe they all look the same except the Night's King.

Terez
06-04-2015, 10:29 PM
I kind of forgot that Varys left King's Landing. It's not that I really forgot; it just slipped my mind when I saw the other names listed for ep 10 in King's Landing (Kevan, then Pycelle).

I have noticed a lot of people giving up on the show this season, for various reasons, but I'm getting more and more addicted to it. I think that's mostly because they're starting to pass up and deviate from the show, so we have less idea of what's going to happen.

Some said this would be the last season we would have any idea what was coming, but clearly that's not true, since they're going to do the Iron Islands plot next season, perhaps also the Riverlands, perhaps the Targaryen-related scheming in Dorne, maybe even Aegon. But we are seeing stuff in the show that hasn't happened in the books, namely Tyrion + Dany, and whatever Dany and Jon do next season will be new. Whatever happens in King's Landing will be new, even if it mostly focuses on Cersei's trial (which we haven't seen). Sansa will be off the rails. More than anything, I'm looking forward to Sam.

Davian93
06-05-2015, 10:42 AM
The Sansa rape really burned people...mainly because they picture her as the 13 year old that started the show and the 17 year old she is now (or 18, not really sure). That's one of those "Eww" type moments for a lot of people...too close to child abuse which, as we see from the recent news is a rampant issue in our country and has been for decades (well, to be honest, forever...its not like child abuse in a sexual nature is a new phenomenon...its gone on as long as humans have existed). But that issue along with the seemingly dragging plot (people never like setup episodes) lost some people until Hardhome. Hardhome, simply put, was and is the best episode the show has put out all around. Just brilliantly done.

I'm with you though in that I'm super excited to see what is going to happen next. I was actually worried that Jon would die at Hardhome as they're so far off the rails its impossible to know where they're gonna go. The dynamic between Dany and Tyrion is fantastic. She's finally going to be interesting.

All of the changes from the books have worked pretty well so far. I look at the books and series as completely different entities at this point...much akin to the Walking Dead series and comic. Both great in their own way and independent from each other at this point.

Every GoT fan I know is ridiculously excited for the final two episodes now. People I barely know come up to me at the office and go "Bryan, I heard you've read the books..." and it starts long conversations about them and the show. There are a TON of fans out there now and its really growing. 7+ million viewers on the first run not counting streaming. That's insane for a cable show. They'll be at 10 million next year if not higher. Hard home was one of the highest rated episodes in the show's history and that's AFTER the Sansa fallout. HBO doesn't release the actual numbers (they keep track of HBO GO and streaming far more than Nielson and insist its much, much higher) but they will probably drop even more money into the budget going forward. Cant wait to see what they can do.

Daekyras
06-06-2015, 04:22 AM
The Sansa rape really burned people...mainly because they picture her as the 13 year old that started the show and the 17 year old she is now (or 18, not really sure). That's one of those "Eww" type moments for a lot of people...too close to child abuse which, as we see from the recent news is a rampant issue in our country and has been for decades (well, to be honest, forever...its not like child abuse in a sexual nature is a new phenomenon...its gone on as long as humans have existed). But that issue along with the seemingly dragging plot (people never like setup episodes) lost some people until Hardhome. Hardhome, simply put, was and is the best episode the show has put out all around. Just brilliantly done.

I'm with you though in that I'm super excited to see what is going to happen next. I was actually worried that Jon would die at Hardhome as they're so far off the rails its impossible to know where they're gonna go. The dynamic between Dany and Tyrion is fantastic. She's finally going to be interesting.

All of the changes from the books have worked pretty well so far. I look at the books and series as completely different entities at this point...much akin to the Walking Dead series and comic. Both great in their own way and independent from each other at this point.

Every GoT fan I know is ridiculously excited for the final two episodes now. People I barely know come up to me at the office and go "Bryan, I heard you've read the books..." and it starts long conversations about them and the show. There are a TON of fans out there now and its really growing. 7+ million viewers on the first run not counting streaming. That's insane for a cable show. They'll be at 10 million next year if not higher. Hard home was one of the highest rated episodes in the show's history and that's AFTER the Sansa fallout. HBO doesn't release the actual numbers (they keep track of HBO GO and streaming far more than Nielson and insist its much, much higher) but they will probably drop even more money into the budget going forward. Cant wait to see what they can do.

About the sansa issue- I understand why they did it. It wasn't necessary but I can see the choice they made and the reasoning that went into it. I'm also greatly appreciative of the fact there was no explicit nakedness.*

I think it makes it a lot easier to hate ramsay. I know people who watch the show and felt like Grey joy deserved everything that happened to him.

basically, ramsay had never been shown to hurt anyone "nice" on the show. He killed soldiers, tortured theon and then killed a girl who helped torture theon. The people I know said that he was a c#nt (this is Ireland, that word is very common) but they did not hate him. They hate him now. That was explicitly cruel against a character we have never meant to do anything but like.

Kimon
06-06-2015, 09:41 AM
About the sansa issue- I understand why they did it. It wasn't necessary but I can see the choice they made and the reasoning that went into it. I'm also greatly appreciative of the fact there was no explicit nakedness.*

I think it makes it a lot easier to hate ramsay. I know people who watch the show and felt like Grey joy deserved everything that happened to him.

basically, ramsay had never been shown to hurt anyone "nice" on the show. He killed soldiers, tortured theon and then killed a girl who helped torture theon. The people I know said that he was a c#nt (this is Ireland, that word is very common) but they did not hate him. They hate him now. That was explicitly cruel against a character we have never meant to do anything but like.

I'm not sure why anyone would have viewed him as anything but a completely psychotic twat, but admittedly, the books give a lot more examples, any of which would have helped to round out his aura of sadism for the show-only crowd. There was the significance of the names of his dogs, never as far as I recall ever really made mention to in the show, as instead the show invented and portrayed two of his girls, Violet and Myranda (probably just as an excuse for some nudity), and we are told that he killed Violet, but there is never really the same mention of hunting them or naming his dogs after them. Nor do we learn of the fate of Lady Hornwood, abducted, raped, and starved to death by Ramsey. Nor does the show make as explicit the fact that he murdered Roose's trueborn heir (did they ever even mention Domeric in the show?). I don't think that Sansa scene however had anything to do with showing just how evil he was, I think it was simple necessity. They had decided to replace Jeyne Poole with Sansa, and unlike Tyrion, a gentleman and noble in the truest sense, it would have been completely out-of-character for Ramsey not to have used and abused her. They have at least not been as horrifically graphic as GRRM was with what happened to poor Jeyne, but they couldn't rationally have left Sansa untouched by his sadism. Still really disturbing.

Hopefully one of the Starks will finally get a chance to exact some revenge, and Sansa can eventually castrate him and make him eat his own sausage. That's definitely how I would resolve things with the Bastard of Bolton.

Daekyras
06-06-2015, 08:35 PM
I'm not sure why anyone would have viewed him as anything but a completely psychotic twat, but admittedly, the books give a lot more examples, any of which would have helped to round out his aura of sadism for the show-only crowd. There was the significance of the names of his dogs, never as far as I recall ever really made mention to in the show, as instead the show invented and portrayed two of his girls, Violet and Myranda (probably just as an excuse for some nudity), and we are told that he killed Violet, but there is never really the same mention of hunting them or naming his dogs after them. Nor do we learn of the fate of Lady Hornwood, abducted, raped, and starved to death by Ramsey. Nor does the show make as explicit the fact that he murdered Roose's trueborn heir (did they ever even mention Domeric in the show?). I don't think that Sansa scene however had anything to do with showing just how evil he was, I think it was simple necessity. They had decided to replace Jeyne Poole with Sansa, and unlike Tyrion, a gentleman and noble in the truest sense, it would have been completely out-of-character for Ramsey not to have used and abused her. They have at least not been as horrifically graphic as GRRM was with what happened to poor Jeyne, but they couldn't rationally have left Sansa untouched by his sadism. Still really disturbing.

Hopefully one of the Starks will finally get a chance to exact some revenge, and Sansa can eventually castrate him and make him eat his own sausage. That's definitely how I would resolve things with the Bastard of Bolton.

I know but the people whom work with me and watch it have never read the books.

I would rather Stannis chops him in two. But we all know that won't happen as that's it GRRM style.

If you want stuff like that, read David gemmell. There's a great bit in one of his books where a confrontation between two characters is built up for ages and......BAM, it's over in seconds. The good guy wins and we move on. Man I loved that so much.

also, completely drunk as I type this. Woooooooooooooooo9oooooooooooooooooohhhhhhhjj!!!!

Terez
06-07-2015, 03:43 AM
I'm with you though in that I'm super excited to see what is going to happen next. I was actually worried that Jon would die at Hardhome as they're so far off the rails its impossible to know where they're gonna go.
I don't think they are quite that far off the rails. Some of the changes have been detrimental to the plot, but most of them have had a reason of some sort or another, and there doesn't appear to be any reason to change the stabbing. Also, they've been building up to it all season.

Olly is getting so obvious I'm starting to think he's a red herring for book readers, that he'll actually take Jon's side when it comes down to it, or that he'll be a faithful steward in one way or another. Maybe he'll go both ways, betraying Jon to the stabbers and then making some effort to save him, even if it's just to fetch Melisandre.

Obviously they're planning this cliffhanger for Jon at the end of the season (they said something about ep 10 breaking the internet) so I wonder if the wildlings will be the sole reason for the stabbing, or whether Jon will get Ramsay's letter and forsake his vows to march on Winterfell.

Apparently Ramsay is going to do his thing in tonight's episode, with his 20 men, and there needs to be enough time passage to allow for Melisandre to have a scene with Stannis in ep 9 and be at the Wall by ep 10. And a raven would travel faster than her.

I'm really looking forward to seeing how they pull all this off. It could be disastrously bad, but I'm hoping not. Also interested to see how Sansa, Yara, and Tychos fit in.

Davian93
06-07-2015, 06:16 PM
I don't think they are quite that far off the rails. Some of the changes have been detrimental to the plot, but most of them have had a reason of some sort or another, and there doesn't appear to be any reason to change the stabbing. Also, they've been building up to it all season.

Olly is getting so obvious I'm starting to think he's a red herring for book readers, that he'll actually take Jon's side when it comes down to it, or that he'll be a faithful steward in one way or another. Maybe he'll go both ways, betraying Jon to the stabbers and then making some effort to save him, even if it's just to fetch Melisandre.

Obviously they're planning this cliffhanger for Jon at the end of the season (they said something about ep 10 breaking the internet) so I wonder if the wildlings will be the sole reason for the stabbing, or whether Jon will get Ramsay's letter and forsake his vows to march on Winterfell.

Apparently Ramsay is going to do his thing in tonight's episode, with his 20 men, and there needs to be enough time passage to allow for Melisandre to have a scene with Stannis in ep 9 and be at the Wall by ep 10. And a raven would travel faster than her.

I'm really looking forward to seeing how they pull all this off. It could be disastrously bad, but I'm hoping not. Also interested to see how Sansa, Yara, and Tychos fit in.

I predicted that Ollie would end up taking out Alistair Thorne to help out Jon and I stand by it.

Terez
06-07-2015, 08:58 PM
Ramsay's 20 men turned out to be relatively unimpressive, though of course the loss of food was a big blow. Shireen...that really shocked me. I didn't expect Stannis to go through with it, especially show Stannis. (Book Stannis is easier to believe.) And Selyse was kind of cliché expectation-flipping. Cliché because they made her so hard and cruel and uncaring toward Shireen before.

Now I'm wondering what will cause Melisandre to go to the Wall.

Kimon
06-07-2015, 09:11 PM
Ramsay's 20 men turned out to be relatively unimpressive, though of course the loss of food was a big blow. Shireen...that really shocked me. I didn't expect Stannis to go through with it, especially show Stannis. (Book Stannis is easier to believe.) And Selyse was kind of cliché expectation-flipping. Cliché because they made her so hard and cruel and uncaring toward Shireen before.

Now I'm wondering what will cause Melisandre to go to the Wall.

I was still wondering until the Onion Knight left without her. I was hoping he would smuggle her out. I'm assuming that Stannis is dead next episode. Can you imagine how pissed the audience would be if this season's finale concluded with Jon "dead", but Stannis and Ramsay both still alive? Admittedly, that climax would be far more typical for this series...

Kimon
06-07-2015, 09:19 PM
On a side note, the show really needs to have Arya leave Braavos. Her story this season has been even more tedious than Dany's.

Terez
06-07-2015, 09:38 PM
When they had Arya in the whorehouse, I was sure that we were going to see something shocking along the lines of the Mercy scene from the early-release ADWD chapters. She already killed Polliver in the show (which is roughtly what happened in the Mercy scene, repeating his words to Lommy, etc.), but she didn't manage to kill either her target or Ser Meryn.

Kimon
06-07-2015, 09:50 PM
When they had Arya in the whorehouse, I was sure that we were going to see something shocking along the lines of the Mercy scene from the early-release ADWD chapters. She already killed Polliver in the show (which is roughtly what happened in the Mercy scene, repeating his words to Lommy, etc.), but she didn't manage to kill either her target or Ser Meryn.

He did ask the madam to prepare another "fresh" girl for next time, so you'll only have to wait till next Sunday for your Mercy scene.

Terez
06-07-2015, 10:41 PM
Well, Jorah touched Dany's hand. And then she touched Missandei. Do they have to actually touch the greyscale to contract it?

Kimon
06-07-2015, 11:56 PM
Well, Jorah touched Dany's hand. And then she touched Missandei. Do they have to actually touch the greyscale to contract it?

Probably more of a danger for Missandei than for Dany, but difficult to really know just how communicable greyscale is, or for how long one is contagious. I'd have to assume that he still is, compared say to those, like Shireen, in whom the disease is no longer active or spreading, for whom it likely isn't at all contagious anymore. But what about Tyrion? Might he be a carrier with genetic immunity? He apparently infected Jorah. Could he still infect others? The books give almost nothing that could answer any of this, so presumably the show could have quite a bit of leeway.

Does anyone remember whether Drogon was wounded in this scene in the book? His scales seemed pretty worthless as armor. Should we assume that dragons in GRRM are just really weak compared to Tolkien, or is it just that he is still a young dragon, with juvenile scales?

Oh, and on that same note, I get why the show decided to have a more cinematic assassination attempt than just the locusts, but it had the collateral effect of making the Unsullied look completely useless. In their pre-fight security, they apparently didn't bother to search those entering for weapons, and while the knives were one thing, and swords bad enough, are we to believe that all those spears were just lying around, in which case there were a conspicuous abundance of them, or were the Unsullied really so stupid as to not notice a bunch of heavily armed spectators? Or even just think to pat them down to search for a bunch of really conspicuous masks? In the actual fighting, against admittedly quite a few adversaries, but still mostly knife wielding and mostly unarmored spoiled rich kids, they didn't seem to be faring particularly well either. And as for guarding Dany, how did none of them notice a dude in a very obvious mask approaching her? Yeah let's all mindlessly watch the scene in the pit instead of look for threats from the crowd.

Ozymandias
06-08-2015, 07:40 AM
Probably more of a danger for Missandei than for Dany, but difficult to really know just how communicable greyscale is, or for how long one is contagious. I'd have to assume that he still is, compared say to those, like Shireen, in whom the disease is no longer active or spreading, for whom it likely isn't at all contagious anymore. But what about Tyrion? Might he be a carrier with genetic immunity? He apparently infected Jorah. Could he still infect others? The books give almost nothing that could answer any of this, so presumably the show could have quite a bit of leeway.

He did not infect Jorah. One of the stone men that attacked them infected him.

Does anyone remember whether Drogon was wounded in this scene in the book? His scales seemed pretty worthless as armor. Should we assume that dragons in GRRM are just really weak compared to Tolkien, or is it just that he is still a young dragon, with juvenile scales?

Important to remember that Drogon is fairly young. And yes, I believe a couple spears do get through in the books. But the real defense of a dragon is that it can fly. And while they clearly hurt, we have no idea the true effect of spears and such on a dragon... they could just be a minor annoyance. Certainly, getting hit with half a dozen spears seemed to have no adverserial impact on his ability to move/fly/eat people.

Oh, and on that same note, I get why the show decided to have a more cinematic assassination attempt than just the locusts, but it had the collateral effect of making the Unsullied look completely useless. In their pre-fight security, they apparently didn't bother to search those entering for weapons, and while the knives were one thing, and swords bad enough, are we to believe that all those spears were just lying around, in which case there were a conspicuous abundance of them, or were the Unsullied really so stupid as to not notice a bunch of heavily armed spectators? Or even just think to pat them down to search for a bunch of really conspicuous masks? In the actual fighting, against admittedly quite a few adversaries, but still mostly knife wielding and mostly unarmored spoiled rich kids, they didn't seem to be faring particularly well either. And as for guarding Dany, how did none of them notice a dude in a very obvious mask approaching her? Yeah let's all mindlessly watch the scene in the pit instead of look for threats from the crowd.

I've heard this complaint a bunch of times and I don't think its quite valid. First, the Unsullied are meant to fight in lockstep, in groups. Their effectiveness is lost when they have to wield long spears in tight places, or essentially on their own. Their value as soldiers comes from unflinching discipline and a literal inability to feel pain, not from being awesome one on one fighters.

As for searching attendees... I'm not sure that is something they'd do of their own initiative, and I think our modern conception of security is a little more rigorous than the Meereenese version. People carried around knives for a whole bunch of reasons in medieval times and prior. Eating and such, for one. It is probably unreasonable to ask them to search all 20,000 people or whatever. The folks with spears all rushed in after the initial attack. Searching half a dozen people coming into a tent for a parley is very doable... I'm not sure the organizational capacity or creative thinking is there to do so for an enormous number of citizens attending a social event. At some point, Dany can't be THAT paranoid ALL the time. Especially at the one event at which she might reasonably expect people to be well disposed towards her.

Davian93
06-08-2015, 10:39 AM
You'll notice the Unsullied did quite a bit better once they had a ring wall around Dany in the middle of the arena where their spears could be used more effectively. In a crowd or melee, a long spear kinda sucks as a weapon. Its true value comes in formations and spear walls.

Other thoughts, anyone notice how Stannis's wife suddenly flipped the moment he said "She's royal blood". So um...is she actually or did Selsye realize "Hmm, he's killing my daughter and its a complete waste?" I'm hoping its more there than just the typical about-face we'd normally see.

Also, Drogon seemed pretty weak...quite disappointed that the spears didn't bounce off. Otherwise, dragons can be killed pretty easily.

Jorah did touch them but with his clean hand so he might not be passing anything on there...I doubt Dany is susceptible anyway for much the same reason that she can't be burned. A shame Shireen doesn't have any Targaryen blood, eh?

Shrine's death was a blow and a shock but it shouldn't have been for us. We should have seen it coming a mile away. Its part of the Azor Azai prophecy for him to betray his family and the decision was logical in the Stannisverse. Still awful...way, way, way worse than the Red Wedding or Sansa's bedding.

The Unreasoner
06-08-2015, 10:39 AM
I think I'm done. With the show, with the books. I officially don't care what happens to any of the characters that are left. And I have zero faith that GRRM actually knows where this is going. Why kill Shireen? Why have Trant be a pedophile? Shock value? I'm just sso sick of this bs.

Davian93
06-08-2015, 10:57 AM
I think I'm done. With the show, with the books. I officially don't care what happens to any of the characters that are left. And I have zero faith that GRRM actually knows where this is going. Why kill Shireen? Why have Trant be a pedophile? Shock value? I'm just sso sick of this bs.

Killing Shireen fits in perfectly with Stannis believing he is AA and that he is the supposed Chosen One that must make the ultimate sacrifices to defeat the Night's King. Mel has been in his ear for years now telling him that and so far, in him mind, she's been right...thus, he's making an awful sacrifice to come out on top for the supposed Greater Good.

So....awful, awful awful but it made sense.


For Trant, I suspect they went that route for a couple reasons: 1. it gives the Show watchers another reason other than Syrio's death to hate Trant and it gives Arya a way to get him as she will inevitably pretend to be a young prostitute to get close enough to kill him.

Ozymandias
06-08-2015, 12:48 PM
Killing Shireen fits in perfectly with Stannis believing he is AA and that he is the supposed Chosen One that must make the ultimate sacrifices to defeat the Night's King. Mel has been in his ear for years now telling him that and so far, in him mind, she's been right...thus, he's making an awful sacrifice to come out on top for the supposed Greater Good.

So....awful, awful awful but it made sense.


For Trant, I suspect they went that route for a couple reasons: 1. it gives the Show watchers another reason other than Syrio's death to hate Trant and it gives Arya a way to get him as she will inevitably pretend to be a young prostitute to get close enough to kill him.

I mean, book Stannis (and even show Stannis) don't seem quite as convinced as Melly does about his Chosen One-ness. Always seemed more of a convenient mask to wear in pursuit of his real goal of sitting the Iron Throne.

And the Meryn Trant thing... well, it does sort of fit with his character. I mean, yes, they made that part up, but its perfectly in keeping with how he has been portrayed in general.

Davian93
06-08-2015, 01:08 PM
Also, with Stannis, his thoughts also probably went along this line:

Choice A: I don't sacrifice Shireen and we all starve/freeze to death as we have no food and we're snowbound here. So Shireen still dies regardless.

Choice B: I sacrifice her for the good of the many and we might have a shot at surviving collectively.


He's nothing if not logical.

That said, I hope that Ramsay flays him and wears his skin as a cape.

Kimon
06-08-2015, 01:51 PM
Also, with Stannis, his thoughts also probably went along this line:

Choice A: I don't sacrifice Shireen and we all starve/freeze to death as we have no food and we're snowbound here. So Shireen still dies regardless.

Choice B: I sacrifice her for the good of the many and we might have a shot at surviving collectively.


He's nothing if not logical.

That said, I hope that Ramsay flays him and wears his skin as a cape.

Choice C: Stannis' men lynch him and offer to surrender to the Boltons in exchange for a warm bed and some food.

Davian93
06-08-2015, 02:47 PM
Choice C: Stannis' men lynch him and offer to surrender to the Boltons in exchange for a warm bed and some food.

Nah, they're mostly true believers too...and they have to know full well how the Boltons treat prisoners. Ramsay has demonstrated that quite clearly with his treatment of the Ironborn and their behavior at the Twins has to be in the back of their mind too. They know their options consist of "stay with Stannis and hope to win" as all other roads lead to certain death instead of just probable death.

Kimon
06-08-2015, 03:34 PM
Nah, they're mostly true believers too...and they have to know full well how the Boltons treat prisoners. Ramsay has demonstrated that quite clearly with his treatment of the Ironborn and their behavior at the Twins has to be in the back of their mind too. They know their options consist of "stay with Stannis and hope to win" as all other roads lead to certain death instead of just probable death.

If they had any hope of success, I would agree. In the books Mance and his girls are killing Freys and Boltons, throwing Winterfell into a nervous state, moreover, Manderly is there, and Stannis should presumably know that he is a secret ally waiting to turn on Roose openly. he also knows that Arnolf Karhold is a traitor, so can feed him false intel. He's also won the allegiance of a bunch of the mountain clans, some of the Umbers, all the Glovers and Mormonts, and controls Deepwood Motte. His position is clearly stronger than the Boltons. In the show he looks like he has a hundred starving men and has become so desperate that he has let the witch burn his own daughter alive. If that isn't a sinking ship, what is? And as for their faith, Melisandre has shown that she can kill if provided with king's blood in the books. But in the show? She killed Renly. She hasn't killed Greyjoy yet. And can she really claim Joffrey or Robb? Has she demonstrated any more lasting success achieved through those murders? Stannis certainly isn't any closer to victory in the show. In the book at least he looked quite likely to take Winterfell, with the only doubt created by Ramsey's letter. In the show his attack by comparison seems without even the slightest chance of success, and hence, unsurprisingly, Roose seems completely at ease in Winterfell, unlike in the book. I'd be surprised if Stannis' men don't turn on him.

rand
06-08-2015, 03:53 PM
The Shireen thing surprised me, I'm not gonna lie. Having read the books, nothing in the show has truly shocked me until this. And it's not so much Stannis's decision to kill his own daughter--he's already murdered his brother, and went through with the king's blood ritual to kill Robb and Joffrey. I was more surprised that Shireen did get killed. I kept expecting someone to change their mind, or Davos to come back or something.

I think Shireen will die in the books as well, but the indications seem to be that Patchface will kill her somehow.




I like how they did the fighting pit scene with Dany. It was actually a very cool scene with the Sons of the Harpy attack at the end. In the book, Drogon just kind of swoops in because he's attracted to the blood or something. Which is cool, but this was much better.




I'm pretty excited for the finale, which will supposedly "break the interent." Jon will die, that's pretty obvious. Balon will be assassinated (and it will be interesting to see how that's done, as it's a Faceless Man in the books). Arya will probably kill Meryn Trant. Cersei will do her walk of shame, and probably meet Ser Robert Strong at the end. Varys will appear to kill of Pycelle and Kevan. I doubt they'll spend much time in Meereen, depending on how much of the Battle of Winterfell we see. And who knows who will die there. Stannis? Ramsay? Roose? Also, the episode title "Mother's Mercy" refers to Cersei's walk, but it's possible they could finally reveal Lady Stoneheart. I'm not sure that I'd really care about that at this point, FWIW, but it would still be cool.

Anyway, the finale will basically have murders and assassinations left and right. More or less a bunch of mini Red Weddings, presumably leading up to Jon's own murder.

Kimon
06-08-2015, 04:19 PM
I'm pretty excited for the finale, which will supposedly "break the interent." Jon will die, that's pretty obvious. Balon will be assassinated (and it will be interesting to see how that's done, as it's a Faceless Man in the books). Arya will probably kill Meryn Trant. Cersei will do her walk of shame, and probably meet Ser Robert Strong at the end. Varys will appear to kill of Pycelle and Kevan. I doubt they'll spend much time in Meereen, depending on how much of the Battle of Winterfell we see. And who knows who will die there. Stannis? Ramsay? Roose? Also, the episode title "Mother's Mercy" refers to Cersei's walk, but it's possible they could finally reveal Lady Stoneheart. I'm not sure that I'd really care about that at this point, FWIW, but it would still be cool.


They might have had to hold off on Cersei's walk of shame until next season. Lena Headey is pregnant (due sometime this summer), and depending on when they finished shooting scenes for this season, that might have made it a bit difficult to film that scene. Really hoping that they don't include Lady Stoneheart. Far too many characters have already cheated death, so we don't need hers for the audience to understand why Jon can. Dondarrion already showed us that it was possible, and we need both Jon and Gregor. Cat was annoying enough while alive, no need to subject the show to her zombie as well. I'd rather have had fat Manderly than her. As for the title, I've got to think that it was meant as a reference to Arya's creepy sobriquet, albeit this time for Trant rather than for Raff the Sweetling.

Terez
06-08-2015, 04:45 PM
They already filmed Cersei's walk. Also, if you watch the show extras, the interviews with B&W, the Shireen burning came straight from GRRM. Someone on Malazan pointed out there was a lot of foreshadowing for it, that Melisandre believes burning king's blood would wake dragons from stone. Death must pay for life, and Shireen's death will pay for Jon's life.

Davian93
06-08-2015, 04:48 PM
The Shireen thing surprised me, I'm not gonna lie. Having read the books, nothing in the show has truly shocked me until this. And it's not so much Stannis's decision to kill his own daughter--he's already murdered his brother, and went through with the king's blood ritual to kill Robb and Joffrey. I was more surprised that Shireen did get killed. I kept expecting someone to change their mind, or Davos to come back or something.

I think Shireen will die in the books as well, but the indications seem to be that Patchface will kill her somehow.

GRRM said that she will die by fire in the books too at Stannis's order...that's why the show runners added it in. They were just as shocked as the rest of us apparently. It was rough though.




I like how they did the fighting pit scene with Dany. It was actually a very cool scene with the Sons of the Harpy attack at the end. In the book, Drogon just kind of swoops in because he's attracted to the blood or something. Which is cool, but this was much better.



Agreed...this was much, much, much better.


I'm pretty excited for the finale, which will supposedly "break the interent." Jon will die, that's pretty obvious. Balon will be assassinated (and it will be interesting to see how that's done, as it's a Faceless Man in the books). Arya will probably kill Meryn Trant. Cersei will do her walk of shame, and probably meet Ser Robert Strong at the end. Varys will appear to kill of Pycelle and Kevan. I doubt they'll spend much time in Meereen, depending on how much of the Battle of Winterfell we see. And who knows who will die there. Stannis? Ramsay? Roose? Also, the episode title "Mother's Mercy" refers to Cersei's walk, but it's possible they could finally reveal Lady Stoneheart. I'm not sure that I'd really care about that at this point, FWIW, but it would still be cool.

Anyway, the finale will basically have murders and assassinations left and right. More or less a bunch of mini Red Weddings, presumably leading up to Jon's own murder.

I don't know that Kevan will die in the finale. I think that will hold off till next year. I think Meryn is toast, I think that Cersei will be paroled, not completely pardoned with the Robert Strong/Gregor beast showing up...who will inevitably fight Sandor supermonk Clegane.

I don't see LS showing up...they eliminated that entire storyline for good reason.

Davian93
06-08-2015, 04:48 PM
They already filmed Cersei's walk. Also, if you watch the show extras, the interviews with B&W, the Shireen burning came straight from GRRM. Someone on Malazan pointed out there was a lot of foreshadowing for it, that Melisandre believes burning king's blood would wake dragons from stone. Death must pay for life, and Shireen's death will pay for Jon's life.

LOL...beat me by 3 min.

The funny thing is that Melisandre is a complete fraud. Wait, that's not funny.

Ozymandias
06-08-2015, 05:37 PM
LOL...beat me by 3 min.

The funny thing is that Melisandre is a complete fraud. Wait, that's not funny.

Wait... what? No she isn't. Its pretty clear she has legit magical abilites, non?

Terez
06-08-2015, 05:45 PM
Sure, but she has no idea how to read her fires and thinks Stannis is Azor Ahai and made him a flaming sword in the manner of Thoros of Myr, except I think Thoros managed to keep his burning a little longer.

Davian93
06-08-2015, 06:11 PM
Sure, but she has no idea how to read her fires and thinks Stannis is Azor Ahai and made him a flaming sword in the manner of Thoros of Myr, except I think Thoros managed to keep his burning a little longer.

But he totally is...I mean, otherwise torching his kid was a pretty fucked up thing to do.

Terez
06-08-2015, 06:32 PM
Others have pointed out that when this scene happens in the book it's unlikely Stannis will authorize it, since both Melisandre and Shireen are at the Wall and Stannis is likely dead.

Davian93
06-08-2015, 06:35 PM
Others have pointed out that when this scene happens in the book it's unlikely Stannis will authorize it, since both Melisandre and Shireen are at the Wall and Stannis is likely dead.

Yeah, that's likely true. Selyse will probably authorize it to "save" Stannis after consulting with Melisandre.

Terez
06-08-2015, 08:23 PM
To save Azor Ahai. Which is not likely Stannis.

Rand al'Fain
06-08-2015, 11:21 PM
They already filmed Cersei's walk. Also, if you watch the show extras, the interviews with B&W, the Shireen burning came straight from GRRM. Someone on Malazan pointed out there was a lot of foreshadowing for it, that Melisandre believes burning king's blood would wake dragons from stone. Death must pay for life, and Shireen's death will pay for Jon's life.

Too bad for Shireen, Mely, and Stannis that Dany already awakened the dragons from stone by burning her dead husband (along with the witch). And since Drogo had married Dany, who was the last known Targaryen, that would make him a King.

Kimon
06-09-2015, 12:22 AM
Too bad for Shireen, Mely, and Stannis that Dany already awakened the dragons from stone by burning her dead husband (along with the witch). And since Drogo had married Dany, who was the last known Targaryen, that would make him a King.

As opposed to being a Khal? That in of itself was likely sufficient. After all, Dalla's son apparently would have been worthy of bleeding, and his father was just Mance. How about Edric? He was just a bastard, and while he did have a bit of Targaryen blood, presumably not just any offshoot would do. But then he was born of a king, while he was king, and thus Edric's blood was quite efficacious. Is there really reason for us to believe that Shireen's would be as much so as his, or even as much as would the blood of Dalla's boy? Edric and Dalla's boy were both what the Byzantines would have called porphyrogeniti, but Shireen was not, and not regardless of whether one views Stannis a rightful king.

Daekyras
06-09-2015, 03:58 AM
Wait... what? No she isn't. Its pretty clear she has legit magical abilites, non?

The is no magic pug.

Daekyras
06-09-2015, 04:03 AM
Yeah, that's likely true. Selyse will probably authorize it to "save" Stannis after consulting with Melisandre.

I think you've said this before dav- the books and show are getting significantly different. The Stannis character until now was vaguely honourable in the show(edric being the worst offence?) But this last scene makes him out to be a misguided fool- a villain almost. I think that will be important. I also think Liam cunningham (the onion knight) is going to cut his head from his shoulders for him. And rightly so.

Davian93
06-09-2015, 06:36 AM
I think you've said this before dav- the books and show are getting significantly different. The Stannis character until now was vaguely honourable in the show(edric being the worst offence?) But this last scene makes him out to be a misguided fool- a villain almost. I think that will be important. I also think Liam cunningham (the onion knight) is going to cut his head from his shoulders for him. And rightly so.

Another possibility is that Ser Davos hears about it while he's at the Wall and simply takes the Black rather than fight for Stannis anymore. They've set this up as a breaking point for his relationship with Stannis...I wonder if his loyalty will continue now that Stannis committed filicide.

The whole "king's blood" thing has always made me a bit skeptical. What does it take for someone to be considered a king? Mance was self-proclaimed and his title was a bit iffy anyway. I dont even recall that he referred to himself as one. Stannis wasn't recognized by the vast majority of those who he was supposedly ruling. Robert was a usurper. I mean really, if I went round saying I was Emperor just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away but these declarations were sufficient for them to acquire magic blood in the Red God's eyes?

And another point, how did any of them become king anyway? By exploiting the worker. By hanging on to outdated imperialist dogma which perpetuates the economic and social differences in our society. Strange women lying in ponds is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not some farcial aquatic ceremony.

Terez
06-09-2015, 06:47 AM
Another possibility is that Ser Davos hears about it while he's at the Wall and simply takes the Black rather than fight for Stannis anymore. They've set this up as a breaking point for his relationship with Stannis...I wonder if his loyalty will continue now that Stannis committed filicide.
Or he'll do what we suspect he was doing last we saw him in the books, and go after Rickon.

Woo, 20000. I'd make a thread, but it'd be boring.

Davian93
06-09-2015, 06:50 AM
Woohoo...18,024!!!!


Yeah, going after Rickon would probably work too.

Ozymandias
06-09-2015, 09:52 AM
The is no magic pug.

You haven't met my pugs.

But she did give birth to a shadow assassin.

Daekyras
06-09-2015, 02:24 PM
You haven't met my pugs.

But she did give birth to a shadow assassin.

Crap, should check on my auto correct before i post.

I meant: there is no magic, pug.
Then I flourish my blue Cape and ride off on my white steed..

Ozymandias
06-09-2015, 04:53 PM
Crap, should check on my auto correct before i post.

I meant: there is no magic, pug.
Then I flourish my blue Cape and ride off on my white steed..

Seriously though, pugs are the most magical and majestic creatures on earth. Just tiny, fat little founts of immense joy and happiness.

Davian93
06-09-2015, 04:55 PM
Seriously though, pugs are the most magical and majestic creatures on earth. Just tiny, fat little founts of immense joy and happiness.

Gotta be honest, they freak me out.

Their breathing and eyes are just weird. Nothing against them as they're super friendly dogs...just not my cup of tea.

Zombie Sammael
06-09-2015, 07:54 PM
Gotta be honest, they freak me out.

Their breathing and eyes are just weird. Nothing against them as they're super friendly dogs...just not my cup of tea.

Agreed. They look like someone stepped on an actual dog's face.

The Unreasoner
06-09-2015, 09:35 PM
As for what makes a king, I assumed there was some magical explanation. Fire and blood are apparently two sources of magical power...The Targaryens/Valyrians had the dragons (for a time), and once they died out their power faded. I always assumed blood gave kings power by people either shedding it in their name/service, or spilling it from others, hence the Baratheon power. Maybe ice is another source of power, and nature seems to be.

Sacrifice does seem to be key. Whether or not Stannis is Azor Azahi, the burning of Shireen (combined with the blood shed in his wars) will almost certainly give him terrifying power. I sort of assumed he was dead in the books (Ramsay's letter), but the show is setting him up to be a sort of anti-Night's King. Just as fucked up, but with fire instead of ice. And with all of the Stark blood shed, and the Children's comments on the direwolves outlasting everything; the Starks seem to have a good deal of magic to spare.

I just don't understand what the point of the story is. I absolutely hate (book) Tyrion, Jon, and Dany. But if GRRM is going to kill or ruin every character I like just to shove those three assholes down my throat, I'll pack up and go home.

Terez
06-10-2015, 01:23 AM
It's your fault for hating good characters and loving asswipes like Stannis.

Book Melisandre is probably going to burn Shireen to save Stannis after Ramsay's letter. She will probably just pray for the return of Azor Ahai in the show, leading to the resurrection of Jon.

Daekyras
06-10-2015, 05:47 AM
I just don't understand what the point of the story is. I absolutely hate (book) Tyrion, Jon, and Dany. .

I can sympathise with you some here.

One of them is stuck in a boring go nowhere story.

One of them is an imcompetent ass.

One of them is consistently the most interesting character in the books.

Which one is which?

But seriously- do you really hate them? Is this like all those people who came on here and said they "hated" Egwene and yet shed a tear when she died??

Davian93
06-10-2015, 06:39 AM
FWIW, I hate book Dany way, way, way more than Egwene.

The Unreasoner
06-10-2015, 09:42 AM
I can sympathise with you some here.

One of them is stuck in a boring go nowhere story.

One of them is an imcompetent ass.

One of them is consistently the most interesting character in the books.

Which one is which?

But seriously- do you really hate them? Is this like all those people who came on here and said they "hated" Egwene and yet shed a tear when she died??
Tyrion just doesn't seem to deserve the respect he gets. He's really not that clever or witty. Yet we have everyone from Varys to Tywin's sister to Jon Fucking Snow bending over backwards praising him. It's disgustingly obvious he's GRRM's favorite character. On a similar note: Doran isn't hot shit either. Subtle, cunning...I don't think so. This is what happens when authors try to write characters more intelligent than themselves.

Jon just...ugh. We fucking get it: he's Rhaegar and Lyanna's son. A blue rose on the Wall? Jon's face in the flames? What could it mean? GRRM has no sense of subtlety. RJ could intricately foreshadow something, lay false trails, and at the end; surprise us without 'cheating'. Pretty much everything fit in retrospect. ASoIaF fans feel clever for essentially being literate. I mean, GRRM's test for the GoT producers was asking about Jon's mother. Was he fucking serious? Would he even have asked if it was Wylla? (BTW, Jon Snow? Not Sands, or Waters?)

Dany is a microcosm of everything wrong with the series: if she's going to show up to the plot, she's taking her sweet time. But by all means, tell me more about Qarth.

Meanwhile, Robb's dead, Oberyn's dead, Tywin's dead, Beric's dead. Euron may prove interesting, but I'm not holding my breath. Davos is still kicking, but offscreen with the Blackfish looking for a plot. And we're stuck with lame-ass Darkstar and whiny Victarion.

Stannis as a Day's King with Melisandre as the seductress might be cool, so I'm sure GRRM will just kill him off.

Kimon
06-10-2015, 10:40 AM
Tyrion just doesn't seem to deserve the respect he gets. He's really not that clever or witty. Yet we have everyone from Varys to Tywin's sister to Jon Fucking Snow bending over backwards praising him. It's disgustingly obvious he's GRRM's favorite character. On a similar note: Doran isn't hot shit either. Subtle, cunning...I don't think so. This is what happens when authors try to write characters more intelligent than themselves.

Jon just...ugh. We fucking get it: he's Rhaegar and Lyanna's son. A blue rose on the Wall? Jon's face in the flames? What could it mean? GRRM has no sense of subtlety. RJ could intricately foreshadow something, lay false trails, and at the end; surprise us without 'cheating'. Pretty much everything fit in retrospect. ASoIaF fans feel clever for essentially being literate. I mean, GRRM's test for the GoT producers was asking about Jon's mother. Was he fucking serious? Would he even have asked if it was Wylla? (BTW, Jon Snow? Not Sands, or Waters?)

Dany is a microcosm of everything wrong with the series: if she's going to show up to the plot, she's taking her sweet time. But by all means, tell me more about Qarth.

Meanwhile, Robb's dead, Oberyn's dead, Tywin's dead, Beric's dead. Euron may prove interesting, but I'm not holding my breath. Davos is still kicking, but offscreen with the Blackfish looking for a plot. And we're stuck with lame-ass Darkstar and whiny Victarion.

Stannis as a Day's King with Melisandre as the seductress might be cool, so I'm sure GRRM will just kill him off.

Unreasoner, not sure why you are so enamored with Stannis. In the book he has, as yet, never shown the same level of despicable behavior that we witnessed in the last show episode, but neither did he ever display a skill for leadership. He was unfit to be king. If anything he was an example (one of many) of the dangers of hereditary kingship. In the book, it does not feel like the readers were intended to hate Stannis, but neither did it seem that GRRM's intent was to inspire a sense of admiration for him, which he clearly did for Ned, Robb, Jon, Arya, and even Sansa. And Tyrion. Perhaps especially Tyrion. Not liking Tyrion, Jon, and Dany is like complaining about wot and giving as your argument that you didn't like Rand, Mat, or Egwene. Heck lots of us didn't like one of those, but all three? If you don't care for any of the main characters just stop reading.

The Unreasoner
06-10-2015, 11:22 AM
Unreasoner, not sure why you are so enamored with Stannis. In the book he has, as yet, never shown the same level of despicable behavior that we witnessed in the last show episode, but neither did he ever display a skill for leadership. He was unfit to be king. If anything he was an example (one of many) of the dangers of hereditary kingship. In the book, it does not feel like the readers were intended to hate Stannis, but neither did it seem that GRRM's intent was to inspire a sense of admiration for him, which he clearly did for Ned, Robb, Jon, Arya, and even Sansa. And Tyrion. Perhaps especially Tyrion. Not liking Tyrion, Jon, and Dany is like complaining about wot and giving as your argument that you didn't like Rand, Mat, or Egwene. Heck lots of us didn't like one of those, but all three? If you don't care for any of the main characters just stop reading.
I don't know why you and Terez assume I like Stannis all that much. In the books he's actually pretty dull, imo. But I liked him in the TV show. Great actor, had some great scenes. Catelyn in the show was great too.

And your WoT analogy clearly breaks down pretty early on. We knew by Baerlon that this was Rand, and co's story (not to mention the fact that they are far richer characters). We still don't know where the hell GRRM is going, so saying this is Dany/Jon/Tyrion's story is a bit undersupported.

ETA:
And, you may not remember, but awhile ago I asked if I should start reading ASoIaF, noting that my ocd would compel me to finish. I got a resounding 'maybe'. But people wouldn't shut up about the show, so I watched it, liked it, decided to read it. And now I'm stuck.

I managed to quit Dune after the sixth book (though the series really should have ended with the death of Leto II), but only because I already hated KJA. I flipped through Hunters/Sandworms, and they were awful.

GonzoTheGreat
06-10-2015, 11:25 AM
We still don't know where the hell GRRM is going, ...
I think that the suggestion that he is going anywhere with it is a slander. He hasn't done anything to deserve that, has he?

rand
06-10-2015, 03:15 PM
Others disagree (apparently), but the end game seems at least fairly obvious to me from how everyone is positioned right now in Westeros. I think Stannis will defeat the Boltons to rule the north, and Aegon will ally with Dorne to take over King's Landing and rule the south.

The North will rebel against Stannis once someone shows up with the letter Robb wrote naming Jon his heir, and once Jon is resurrected Stannis will be killed off and Jon will become King of the North.

Dany will sail backwards around the world using Victarion's fleet and land at Casterly Rock and, with Tyrion's help, either negotiate with Aegon or wait until he inevitably dies. Then she'll be Queen of the Southern Kingdoms.

Jon and Dany will prepare to fight each other, but then the Others will destroy the Wall and attack Westeros, prompting a union of Jon/Dany, North/South, Ice/Fire to fight them.

Of course, there's still plenty of loose ends. I'm not really sure what Sansa will get up to after killing off Littlefinger. I don't really know what Arya and Rickon with do. Cersei and Tommen and Myrcella will all be killed, and Euron will presumably be defeated by someone or other. Sam will probably do some stuff. But the overall ending (the ruling of Westeros by Jon and Dany) seems pretty inevitable and not at all something that GRRM is madly trying to figure out how to do.

Terez
06-10-2015, 03:39 PM
Looks like Myrcella's ear is not safe in the show:

https://sg.news.yahoo.com/a-sand-snake-in-singapore---jessica-henwick-speaks-063840208.html

Ozymandias
06-10-2015, 03:55 PM
Unreasoner, not sure why you are so enamored with Stannis. In the book he has, as yet, never shown the same level of despicable behavior that we witnessed in the last show episode, but neither did he ever display a skill for leadership. He was unfit to be king. If anything he was an example (one of many) of the dangers of hereditary kingship. In the book, it does not feel like the readers were intended to hate Stannis, but neither did it seem that GRRM's intent was to inspire a sense of admiration for him, which he clearly did for Ned, Robb, Jon, Arya, and even Sansa. And Tyrion.

This is only partially true. Stannis is considered one of the better battle commanders in the Seven Kingdoms.

His appeal is meant to be rooted in his discipline. And his lack of appeal in the same. Every character comments on it; he's too rigid to be a king or a politician. Which, incidentally, is kind of why I like him. He's a shot in the arm of probity and forthrightness. He's the guy you call on when you need something done. He was the guy who put down the Greyjoy Rebellion. He was the guy doing all the un-glamorous work during Robert's Rebellion. He's the guy who grits his teeth and gets shit done in a quick and effective manner when asked, no matter how much it pains him.

He clearly does inspire devotion in his men, and of a different sort than Robert. His men follow him because of those values, because he is just without thought for station or birth, even if that justice can be harsh. Davos is the only firsthand example we get, but his men nearly starved to death with him in Storm's End, and yet didn't betray the castle as they surely could have. As supposed to Robert, who made friends of his enemies, Stannis has admirers. They may hate him personally, but they respect him. Whereas Robert, it was clear that people didn't really respect him, but loved him personally.

Terez
06-11-2015, 10:57 AM
Good article on Shireen. (http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2015/06/game-of-thrones-shireen-human-sacrifice-history/395573/)

Davian93
06-11-2015, 11:03 AM
Others disagree (apparently), but the end game seems at least fairly obvious to me from how everyone is positioned right now in Westeros. I think Stannis will defeat the Boltons to rule the north, and Aegon will ally with Dorne to take over King's Landing and rule the south.

The North will rebel against Stannis once someone shows up with the letter Robb wrote naming Jon his heir, and once Jon is resurrected Stannis will be killed off and Jon will become King of the North.

Dany will sail backwards around the world using Victarion's fleet and land at Casterly Rock and, with Tyrion's help, either negotiate with Aegon or wait until he inevitably dies. Then she'll be Queen of the Southern Kingdoms.

Jon and Dany will prepare to fight each other, but then the Others will destroy the Wall and attack Westeros, prompting a union of Jon/Dany, North/South, Ice/Fire to fight them.

Of course, there's still plenty of loose ends. I'm not really sure what Sansa will get up to after killing off Littlefinger. I don't really know what Arya and Rickon with do. Cersei and Tommen and Myrcella will all be killed, and Euron will presumably be defeated by someone or other. Sam will probably do some stuff. But the overall ending (the ruling of Westeros by Jon and Dany) seems pretty inevitable and not at all something that GRRM is madly trying to figure out how to do.

The final book will end with the Night's King shoving his sword through Jon & Dany at the same time and then laughing as it fades to black. There will be an epilogue that describes how eternal winter ruled over Westeros and Essos for eternity.

GRRM will issue a statement saying "I told you it wasn't your typical fantasy book...get over it"

Kimon
06-11-2015, 11:13 AM
Good article on Shireen. (http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2015/06/game-of-thrones-shireen-human-sacrifice-history/395573/)

Interesting that the author, and others, compared Shireen to Iphigeneia. The circumstances are very similar, but Iphigeneia in the more common version of the myth is substituted at the last second by Artemis, and replaced with a deer. Nonetheless, the Greeks had great disdain for human sacrifice, and Agamemnon was punished by the gods for intending to sacrifice his daughter, just as his father, Atreus, was punished for what he had done to his nephews, the sons of Thyestes. Clytemnestra used this act as her justification for her betrayal, tryst, and conspiracy with Aegisthus (Thyestes son/grandson) - leading to their murder of Agamemnon upon his return to Mycenae after the war. Perhaps a suggestion of who will kill Stannis?

Terez
06-11-2015, 11:19 AM
Selyse is really in no position to blame him. She pushed him toward the sacrifice until he finally gave in, and she didn't change her mind until the very last minute, and it was too late.

They seem to be angling Brienne in that direction. Some have suggested Davos. But it could be Ramsay, as Ramsay claimed.

rand
06-11-2015, 01:32 PM
Whatever happens in the finale on Sunday, I wouldn't expect it to be the same as the books. They do seem to be pushing the fact that Brienne will kill Stannis--which obviously won't happen in the books, at least not for a long time. Like I said, I don't necessarily think Stannis will die at all in the Battle of Winterfell. It seems more likely in the books that Stannis defeated the Freys and Boltons, and that Mance wrote the Pink Letter himself.

So I'm excited to see what happens, but I doubt it will be very similar to what we get in Winds at this point.

Daekyras
06-11-2015, 04:16 PM
GRRM will issue a statement saying "I told you it wasn't your typical fantasy book...get over it"

Awww, that would be creepy. A posthumous press relaease....

Terez
06-11-2015, 08:01 PM
The Mance theory is not very believable to me.

The Unreasoner
06-11-2015, 09:15 PM
The Mance theory is not very believable to me.
I actually kind of like it. It actually seems to fit better thematically to me. And it fits more in line with Stannis burning Shireen (as opposed to Selyse presumably acting on her own in the books).

The Night's King had real magical powers. Stannis doesn't seem to (yet). But the pieces are all there for him to be a Day's King. Maybe the burning of Shireen/criminals is what will push him past the threshold. The letter was tailored to bring out Jon (the legal King in the North), and Mance (the King-Beyond-the-Wall) is already down there. So, once again, those two kings unite to take down an insane magical demigod king.

ETA: Seems I'm not the only one to think along these lines...
http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/2y622j/spoilers_all_could_stannis_already_be_the_nights/

Terez
06-11-2015, 09:26 PM
I like it, I just don't find it believable when all is said and done. If Mance is writing a code letter to Tormund, why mention wanting his Reek back? No one has yet provided a satisfactory explanation for that. The theory rests on GRRM's repetitive prose style.

The Unreasoner
06-11-2015, 09:53 PM
I like it, I just don't find it believable when all is said and done. If Mance is writing a code letter to Tormund, why mention wanting his Reek back? No one has yet provided a satisfactory explanation for that. The theory rests on GRRM's repetitive prose style.
There are possible explanations. For one, I don't see that it has to be a coded letter to Tormund. Mance is a good judge of character, but not particularly meticulous or subtle. Tormund certainly isn't. Mance is more likely to write a letter that would provoke Jon (and Tormund as well, should he see it).

As for wanting his Reek back, that's a bit trickier. Maybe Bran interfered when Stannis was going to sacrifice Theon (to the Old Gods or the Red God), and he got away. Mance would probably still want him dead, he does seem to respect the Starks and the laws of the First Men. Theon is broken and a traitor. Mance obviously knew a bit about his situation. It's less clear why he would mention it, since Jon doesn't know about Reek (or afaik). But maybe it was to make it seem plausible to any Bolton agents who intercepted it in transit, to ensure they would pass it on. Or just to make sure Jon grabbed Reek on the way down if they crossed paths (in case Jon doesn't recognize him).

Terez
06-11-2015, 10:15 PM
Again, no satisfactory explanation.

Kimon
06-11-2015, 10:21 PM
There are possible explanations. For one, I don't see that it has to be a coded letter to Tormund. Mance is a good judge of character, but not particularly meticulous or subtle. Tormund certainly isn't. Mance is more likely to write a letter that would provoke Jon (and Tormund as well, should he see it).

As for wanting his Reek back, that's a bit trickier. Maybe Bran interfered when Stannis was going to sacrifice Theon (to the Old Gods or the Red God), and he got away. Mance would probably still want him dead, he does seem to respect the Starks and the laws of the First Men. Theon is broken and a traitor. Mance obviously knew a bit about his situation. It's less clear why he would mention it, since Jon doesn't know about Reek (or afaik). But maybe it was to make it seem plausible to any Bolton agents who intercepted it in transit, to ensure they would pass it on. Or just to make sure Jon grabbed Reek on the way down if they crossed paths (in case Jon doesn't recognize him).

Might the letter also suggest that Roose is dead? Odd enough that it is from Ramsay (or whomever was pretending to be Ramsay), rather than Roose, but Ramsay also calls himself Lord of Winterfell in the letter. So far as I'm aware, Ned was Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North, as too was Robb before he declared himself King of the North. Should not Roose be Lord of Winterfell?

The Unreasoner
06-11-2015, 11:01 PM
Might the letter also suggest that Roose is dead? Odd enough that it is from Ramsay (or whomever was pretending to be Ramsay), rather than Roose, but Ramsay also calls himself Lord of Winterfell in the letter. So far as I'm aware, Ned was Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North, as too was Robb before he declared himself King of the North. Should not Roose be Lord of Winterfell?
I don't think so...I think Ramsay got Winterfell when he was legitimized and married "Arya" Stark. Roose is Lord of the Dreadfort. I imagine it's like the situation in the Riverlands: Winterfell is now subject to the Dreadfort, like Riverrun is under Harrenhall.

rand
06-12-2015, 12:19 AM
I like it, I just don't find it believable when all is said and done. If Mance is writing a code letter to Tormund, why mention wanting his Reek back? No one has yet provided a satisfactory explanation for that. The theory rests on GRRM's repetitive prose style.
I don't think it would be meant for Tormund, but probably Melisandre. I think a lot of the "Mance Did It" theories assume some sort of alliance among Mance, Melisandre, and Stannis. Mance is informing Melisandre that Stannis faked his death in the battle against the Freys and tricked Ramsay into believing it by sending him Lightbringer.

As for Reek...why would Ramsay mention it either? I agree it doesn't necessarily make much sense to include that, but both Ramsay and Mance know that Jon has no clue who Reek is. So I don't really consider that a huge blow agianst this theory.



A few thoughts on the letter itself:

Ramsay's notes come with a neat "button" of pink wax, while the one Jon gets is a pink smear. It's also customary for Ramsay to write the letter in blood, or include a piece of skin with it. Neither seem to be evident in the letter Jon gets, despite Jon's earlier letter from Ramsay being written in blood (iirc).



And here's the whole letter:

Your false king is dead, bastard. He and all his host were smashed in seven days of battle. I have his magic sword. Tell his red whore.

The use of the word "bastard" is identical to how Mance uses it while talking with Jon. Granted, this doesn't necessarily mean much, but it could. The rest of this paragraph (and much of the letter) seems kind of poetic and sing-song like. Not something Ramsay would do, but certainly how Mance would write a letter. He also specifically asks Jon to tell Melisandre about this letter (which, coincidentally, she asked him to as well) which would make sense if Mance is working with her.




Your false king’s friends are dead. Their heads upon the walls of Winterfell. Come see them, bastard. Your false king lied, and so did you. You told the world you burned the King-Beyond-the-Wall. Instead you sent him to Winterfell to steal my bride from me.

Ramsay probably wouldn't just hack off Stannis's and co's heads and be done with it. He would flay them alive and hang them up somewhere.




I will have my bride back. If you want Mance Rayder back, come and get him. I have him in a cage for all the north to see, proof of your lies. The cage is cold, but I have made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell.

This is very similar to one of Mance's lines:
He burned the man he had to burn, for all the world to see.
There's also a theory I read a while ago that suggests Mance has captured Ramsay and switch places with him, similar to his swap with Rattleshirt. By "in a cage for all the north to see," Mance is saying that he has Ramsay locked in the Winterfell crypts, where the Kings and Lords of the North are watching over him.




I want my bride back. I want the false king’s queen. I want his daughter and his red witch. I want his wildling princess. I want his little prince, the wildling babe. And I want my Reek. Send them to me, bastard, and I will not trouble you or your black crows. Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard’s heart and eat it.

"Wildling princess," "little prince," and "black crows" are all phrases used either by the Wildlings or at the Wall. None of them would be used by Ramsay. You could say that Ramsay tortured Mance to find out about these people, but it seems doubtful he would uses Mance's vernacular when referring to them.

Terez
06-12-2015, 01:22 AM
As for Reek...why would Ramsay mention it either? I agree it doesn't necessarily make much sense to include that, but both Ramsay and Mance know that Jon has no clue who Reek is. So I don't really consider that a huge blow agianst this theory.
Ramsay is unbalanced, so he calls Theon what he named him, but clearly he believes that Theon was taking Jeyne to the Wall, so that's why he would ask Jon to return him. That is a good reason to mention Theon, whatever he is called. Where's a similar reason for Mance?

Again, most of the points you raised rest on GRRM's repetitive prose style. The others rest on shaky assumptions about what Ramsay would or would not do. Roose Bolton mounted heads when he took Harrenhal. A very believable and even predictable fit of pique explains all the rest.

Either way, the showrunners have confirmed that show Mance is dead, so if the subterfuge continues it will be cut from the show. And I'm guessing that none of this will play into Jon's stabbing on the show; it will be all about the deal with the wildlings.

Edit: he apparently does get a letter of some sort.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/gnqSb0840E1vt-UWn3mZwSkRZaK5UTkhGHk2VVcXMZ0=w1134-h640-no

Davian93
06-12-2015, 07:16 AM
Again, no satisfactory explanation.

Agreed.

rand
06-12-2015, 12:46 PM
I think one of the biggest reasons for me why I believe Mance wrote it (or at least, that Ramsay didn't) is all the time GRRM spends over the course of aDwD talking about how letters are written, illiteracy of the lords and how maesters usually write the letters, how you can't always trust what a letter says, and numerous descriptions of maester's ink used to write the letters. All culminating in a suspicious letter Jon receives from Ramsay. GRRM wrote Dance in a way that we are meant to question the Pink Letter. It would be kind of anti-climactic (and un-GRRMish) if the letter turned out to be exactly what it says it is.


As for Jon getting a letter in episode 10, it could be Ramsay taunting him over marrying Sansa. Jon will try to send the Wildlings to Winterfell, which will be the last straw for Olly (and maybe others), prompting him to kill Jon.

Terez
06-12-2015, 10:48 PM
Sending the wildlings to Winterfell doesn't work as well when there aren't any wildlings to rescue. We will see though. Two days!

Kimon
06-13-2015, 12:19 AM
Sending the wildlings to Winterfell doesn't work as well when there aren't any wildlings to rescue. We will see though. Two days!

Sending them still makes a lot of sense, as without them he'd have very few soldiers, especially as he would have to leave most (or all) the Crows at the Wall. Do you mean convincing them? I suppose he could offer to make Tormund the new Lord of the Dreadfort (sort of like how he settled the Thenns in Karhold in the books) - albeit with the stipulation that he and the Wildings don't permanently settle there until after the Others have been defeated.

Kimon
06-14-2015, 09:06 PM
Et tu, Olly?

A few observations:

Surprised that there was no letter from Ramsay. They also left it a bit open as to the fates of Sansa, Theon, and even Stannis, and I thought that they would have had Ghost appear at the end. Would have allowed for a nice hint. Oh, and I really wished they would just drop the Braavos bits for Arya. They should have let this be a nice bridge to her realizing that her identity is important, not to continue throwing it away. Oh, and with Varys in Meereen, who's going to kill Kevan? Is Myrcella really dead?

Terez
06-14-2015, 09:18 PM
Surprised that there was no letter from Ramsay. They also left it a bit open as to the fates of Sansa, Theon, and even Stannis...
Stannis is dead; they said so in the interviews afterward.

I thought that they would have had Ghost appear at the end. Would have allowed for a nice hint.
Melisandre was the hint.

Oh, and I really wished they would just drop the Braavos bits for Arya.
The death of Meryn was amahzing.

Oh, and with Varys in Meereen, who's going to kill Kevan?
Maybe they really will keep on Kevan and Pycelle for all of next season. I expected their deaths this year, but I'm still happy Varys is with Tyrion.

Is Myrcella really dead?
Judging by the interviews, she's dead. I like it. We know in the books she's going to die eventually, and Tommen too, so the whole ear drama was just prolonging the inevitable.

I think this episode topped Hardhome. I loved nearly every scene. Cersei's walk was amazing, much better than I expected it to be, and Lena deserves an Emmy. Jon's death (much more explicit in the show, with a stab to the heart) was just beautiful. I have never really found Kit Harington to be incredibly attractive but he somehow was in that scene. His face was perfect.

Kimon
06-14-2015, 09:46 PM
Stannis is dead; they said so in the interviews afterward.


Surprised that they didn't actually show it. Seemed like they wanted to leave some ambiguity.

Melisandre was the hint.

Agreed, but I thought it would have been a nice touch, especially as the show has done so little with warging compared to the books.

The death of Meryn was amahzing.

Quite a bit more tastefully done too than the impression given by the scene with Mercy.

Jon's death (much more explicit in the show, with a stab to the heart) was just beautiful. I have never really found Kit Harington to be incredibly attractive but he somehow was in that scene. His face was perfect.

The way the show handled it paralleled Shakespeare's scene of Julius Caesar very well, with Ser Alliser playing both Cassius and Casca, and Olly playing Brutus, and I suppose that traitor sign standing in for the statue of Pompey. So much so that I was almost surprised that they didn't have Jon mirror Caesar's last words, not in Latin obviously, but I was waiting for him to say "Even (or And, the "et" in Latin could be either an et or a syncopated etiam, the latter probably being more likely) you, Olly". I was a little disappointed when he didn't.