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rand
04-21-2015, 01:28 AM
So with the new GOT season, and the fact that Winds of Winter might (maybe, sorta, hopefully) come out in less than a year from now, I felt like rereading asoiaf. I'm just going to use this thread to make some comments and stuff.

First, the pace of aGoT is almost ridiculously fast-passed compared to Feast and Dance. There's a lot packed into each chapter. In one of them, Catelyn and Ser Rodrik ride from Winterfell, get a ship at White Harbor, sail through storms to King's Landing, pay the ship's captain, find and inn, have Ser Rodrik go off to speak with the Red Keep's master at arms, have Littlefinger's men find Catelyn, bring her to the Red Keep, where she has a conversation with Littlefinger before Varys arrives to join in, and she finally discovers the dagger used in the assassination attempt on Bran was (supposedly) Tyrion's. This whole scenario would have taken GRRM at least 3 or 4 lenghty chapters had it been in Feast or Dance, instead of 10 pages here.



A few things jumped out to me about Sansa:

1) It seems pretty obvious that GRRM wants us to dislike her as a character. And it's not even the fact that she's a complete moron, but (slightly) more subtle things, like her fighting with Arya and her refusal to acknowledge Jon as her brother. My point is that GRRM is really trying to downplay her in the early stages of the series, so it will be more awesome when she finally starts to act on her own and do something cool. We know from the Ghost of High Heart's dream that Sansa will kill Littlefinger at some point, which should be cool, but it will interesting to see what else happens with her.

2) This quote struck me more than I remember from other reads (from Ned's PoV, after hearing Catelyn recount the attempt on Bran's life):
What was it that Jon has said when they found the pups in the snow? Your children were meant to have these pups, my lord. And he had killed Sansa's, and for what? Was it guilt he was feeling? Or fear? If the gods had sent these wolves, what folly had he done?
Not that Sansa wasn't a naive ditz before Lady was killed, but executing her wolf may have actually had some effect on her rather unfortunate/tragic plot line so far.




A few things struck me from Bran's dream too, from right before he wakes up. First, when he's looking down and can see the entire world, he sees this:
He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki Sea beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise.
I know dragons are supposedly from the Shadowlands beyond Asshai, and that a lot of characters say they used to live there. But in this vision, Bran seems to imply there are dragons living there now. Though admittedly I'm not entirely sure what "beneath the sunrise" means. All indications are that Dany will travel through Asshai and sail "backwards" around the world to return to Westeros, so it will be interesting to see what happens there.

I also noticed this from the Bran chapter. I've noticed it before, but it still confuses me:
He looked south, and saw the great blue-green rush of the Trident. He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.
The first two men are almost certainly Sandor Clegane and Jaime Lannister, which makes sense as they're both in the party heading south with Ned. The giant seems out of place here, though. I'm assuming it's Gregor once he's become Ser Robert Strong, but then why would he be connected with Ned's party? Gregor "looming over" Sandor makes perfet sense, but no so much for Jaime...unless, of course, he ends up fighting Ser Robert Strong at some point. I guess the man who's "armored like the sun" could refer to Oberyn Martell. It doesn't make much sense in the context of Bran's vision, but he's certainly connected to Gregor. Bran would have also presumably recognized Jaime's face at this point as well...

Terez
04-21-2015, 01:46 AM
Armored like the sun...Oberyn.

rand
04-24-2015, 10:39 PM
I just read the chapter where Dany eats the horse heart and it struck me that, while an interesting idea, eating an entire horse heart is probably close to impossible for anyone who isn't a Dothraki food eating champion. I did some quick research, and an average horse's heart would weigh 8-9 pounds. Some racing horses have apparently had hearts the size of basketballs that weighed 22 pounds. Even if you figure Dany's wild stallion was toward the lower end of that range (10 to 12 lbs, maybe), there's no way a 13 year old girl would be able to eat all that, even if it did taste good. Though admittedly this could be based on real-world customs and I'm just plain wrong, but it seems a bit of a stretch.

I was also wondering about the prophecy the Dothraki crones make about Dany and Drogo's son (the so-called "stallion that mounts the world"). Namely, was this prophecy really about their son, and it just died with him later in aGoT? Or did the crones see Dany herself uniting all the khalasars, and just interpreted it as being her son? It seems doubtful that Dany will be able to gather all the Dothraki to her in Winds of Winter, but I suppose it's possible.

Terez
04-25-2015, 01:50 AM
Perhaps they saw some vision of her replacement children and misinterpreted it.

I am personally more interested in Mirri Maz Duur's prophecy.

rand
04-27-2015, 11:12 PM
I am personally more interested in Mirri Maz Duur's prophecy.
Yep, I'll get to that soon I hope. IMO, that's one of the best prophecies in any fantasy book, just because of how subtle it is. I didn't notice it was an actual prophecy at all until a little while ago.

rand
06-09-2015, 02:27 AM
I kind of got sidetracked with the reread and started reading other things. I got about halfway through aCoK. I plan on restarting the reread soon. Anyway, I still had some thoughts from the end of aGoT and beginning of aCoK.




I've always been kind of confused as to what exactly Mirri Maz Duur does in the book. When she heals Drogo initially, does she intentionally do it wrong, or poison him? Or did she actually try to heal him, knowing that he wouldn't follow her directions and end up killing himself?

And what about Dany's son? It's heavily implied that Mirri Maz Duur killed him to "save" Drogo, yet Dany also says that Jorah killed her son by carrying her into Drogo's tent while MMD was performing the blood magic, suggesting the baby would have been fine if Jorah hadn't done that.

Did Jorah suffer any kind of effects from seeing the shadows dancing in the tent with Mirri Maz Duur? Dany says he's grey-faced and hollowed-eyed from doing so, but is that really the extent of it?

Also regarding Rhaego...why does he look like a dragon ("monstrous," as MMD says)? Is it because of the interacting with MMD's blood magic, or did it always look like that? Is it possible that the baby wasn't Drogo's at all, but somehow a product of the dream Dany had just before she found out she was pregnant?




Then there's MMD's prophecy:
"When will he be as he was?" Dany demanded.
"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."
-Sun rising in the west and setting in the east = Quentyn (the "sun's son") sailing from Dorne and dying in Meereen.
-Seas going dry = the drought in the Dothraki sea.
-Mountains blowing = probably the pyramids of Meereen crumbling during the upcoming battle
-Womb quickening/bearing a living child = Dany seems to miscarry at the end of aDwD, so she'll likely get pregnant again at some point.

It's pretty cool that this prophecy is very subtlety fulfilled at the end of aDwD. I'm wondering if it implies that Drogo will return once Dany has another baby, or that he would have returned to normal if she'd just carried him around with her as a vegetable the entire time.



One last thing about Dany. Why isn't she killed in Drogo's funeral pyre? GRRM has said that this was just a magical, one-time occurrence, and that Dany (contrary to popular belief) is not immune to fire. She gets burned by Drogon in aDwD, iirc. So what happened in the funeral scene that allowed Dany to survive the fire? It seems as if she's drawn in almost in a trance, so maybe the dragons have something to do with it?



There seems to be some foreshadowing that Sansa will kill Petyr by pushing him off something. At the end of aGoT, she briefly contemplates jumping out her window to kill herself after Eddard's death. Shortly after, she almost pushes Joffrey off the wall walk before Sandor stops her. And then of course there's the incident with Lysa and the Moon Door. There seems to be a running bit of Sansa and falling to death. I think the Ghost of High Heart's prophecy says Sansa will kill Littlefinger in a castle of snow, which could just mean they go back to the Eyrie and she shoves him out the Moon Door. Or it could be the way castle, Snow. Or Winterfell. Or Castle Black.




I thought this was a cool homage to RJ (from the Arya POV where she sees Ned beheaded). At least, I assume that's basically what it is:
She had also heard other things, scary things, things that made no sense to her. Some said her father had murdered King Robert and been slain in turn by Lord Renly. Others insisted that Renly has killed the king in a drunken quarrel between brothers. Why else should he have fled in the night like a common thief? One story said the king had been killed by a boar while hunting, another that he'd died eating a boar, stuffing himself so full that he'd ruptured at the table. No, the king had died at table, others said, but only because Varys the Spider poisoned him. No, it had been the queen who poisoned him. No, he had died of a pox. No, he had choked on a fish bone.

One thing all the stories agreed on: King Robert was dead.
This is almost copy and pasted from the ending of one of the WoT books. I forget which...tGH or tDR, I think.




One thing I never really understood was why Davos saved Stannis from the siege at Storm's End. Certainly it paid off now that he's Hand of the King, but surely he never suspected anything remotely like that would have happened. So why do it? Just to prove he could?



Littlefinger's scheming goes quite a bit deeper than what you get on the surface. Sure, we get the obvious admission that he helped Lysa orchestrate Jon Arryn's death and framed the Lannisters for it, starting the whole feud between the Starks and Lannisters. But in a couple scenes with Tyrion, Varys hints that Littlefinger was the one who told Stannis about Cersei and Jaime's incest. Varys also implies that Littlefinger paid off the Gold Cloaks and/or Ilyn Payne so that they'd obey Joffrey's command to kill Ned and ignore the Queen's protests.

On a side note, why did Varys imply to Ned that Ser Hugh had killed Jon Arryn? We know from her own mouth that it was Lysa herself, so why would Varys try to blame Hugh? Furthermore, why would Gregor have killed Hugh in the tourney? Is it possible Hugh's death was just a coincidence, and Varys was tricked into believing it was him?



Are there any theories as to what Jaqen H'ghar's plans were in the early part of the series? We know he ends up in Oldtown later on, but what about aGoT and aCoK? Presumably he could have avoided being captured in King's Landing if he really wanted to. Same with serving at Harrenhal. Was he looking for something? I can sort of see that for King's Landing, but even the seemingly omnipotent Jaqen H'ghar could hardly have predicted he'd be sent to the Wall, freed during a battle, pressed into Gregor's gang, and ultimately land up in Harrenhal. Maybe he's not quite as badass as he seems, but you'd think he could have searched both King's Landing and Harrenhal in much easier fashion, assuming that was his intentions to begin with.

I know there are all kinds of theories that Jaqen = Syrio, but I think some people have shown that the timeline doesn't work for that (Yoren searched the dungeons before Syrio was killed, or something...not really sure). I don't really believe it, in any case. What is kind of interesting is when Arya seems to hear Syrio's voice as she's sneaking out of the Red Keep. And it's not just a flashback, it's a full-fledged Obi-Wan "use the Force, Luke" moment where she can literally hear him. What's up with that?




Yeah, sorry that was kind of long. I'd been saving some of this stuff for a while and just figured I'd dump it here now. I'm hoping to start up with aCoK again pretty soon.

Davian93
06-09-2015, 07:04 AM
I've always been kind of confused as to what exactly Mirri Maz Duur does in the book. When she heals Drogo initially, does she intentionally do it wrong, or poison him? Or did she actually try to heal him, knowing that he wouldn't follow her directions and end up killing himself?

She'd just been gang raped by his men...so her goal was to kill him all along.

And what about Dany's son? It's heavily implied that Mirri Maz Duur killed him to "save" Drogo, yet Dany also says that Jorah killed her son by carrying her into Drogo's tent while MMD was performing the blood magic, suggesting the baby would have been fine if Jorah hadn't done that.

Lets just say that Mirri kinda knew what would happen in that situation...if Dany doesnt go into that tent, Drogo likely dies instead of "surviving" like he did.

-Sun rising in the west and setting in the east = Quentyn (the "sun's son") sailing from Dorne and dying in Meereen.
-Seas going dry = the drought in the Dothraki sea.
-Mountains blowing = probably the pyramids of Meereen crumbling during the upcoming battle
-Womb quickening/bearing a living child = Dany seems to miscarry at the end of aDwD, so she'll likely get pregnant again at some point

Just a fancy way of telling her she's barren and won't ever have anymore human kids.

One last thing about Dany. Why isn't she killed in Drogo's funeral pyre? GRRM has said that this was just a magical, one-time occurrence, and that Dany (contrary to popular belief) is not immune to fire. She gets burned by Drogon in aDwD, iirc. So what happened in the funeral scene that allowed Dany to survive the fire? It seems as if she's drawn in almost in a trance, so maybe the dragons have something to do with it?


Shot in the dark, it has to do with dragons and magic...magic in GRRM's world is derived from the existence of dragons thus the birth of dragons produced the magical effect that saved her. No dragons, no magic.

This is almost copy and pasted from the ending of one of the WoT books. I forget which...tGH or tDR, I think.

Distinct possibility. GRRM was always incredibly grateful for a praise comment that RJ put on the back of Game of Thrones. He considered it a big part of why his books took off they way they did. I know it was part of the reason I picked it up at the discount book warehouse on Rt 309 in Montgomeryville, PA back in 1997. So um, thanks RJ I guess.

One thing I never really understood was why Davos saved Stannis from the siege at Storm's End. Certainly it paid off now that he's Hand of the King, but surely he never suspected anything remotely like that would have happened. So why do it? Just to prove he could

Davos, regardless of being a smuggler, is an inherently good guy that couldn't watch people starve to death...and he likely saw a big profit in it so personal gain came into it. Davos has always represented inherent good in the story. He's the voice of morality and loyalty in his entire story arc.

Littlefinger's scheming goes quite a bit deeper than what you get on the surface. Sure, we get the obvious admission that he helped Lysa orchestrate Jon Arryn's death and framed the Lannisters for it, starting the whole feud between the Starks and Lannisters. But in a couple scenes with Tyrion, Varys hints that Littlefinger was the one who told Stannis about Cersei and Jaime's incest. Varys also implies that Littlefinger paid off the Gold Cloaks and/or Ilyn Payne so that they'd obey Joffrey's command to kill Ned and ignore the Queen's protests

Every move he makes is designed to sow chaos and give him an opportunity to advance in power. Think about it, he's a nobody son of a man who was barely noble. He'd never have any real authority unless there is massive chaos. The British Navy toast of "To Bloody Wars and Sickly Seasons" comes to mind here. Being Master of Coin is nice but its really just a glorified accountant/banker for the real Lords. Thanks to his machinations, he achieves a signficant amount of power as the books go on as he's Lord of Harrenhal and then Lord Protector of the Vale and he controls what he believes is the sole surviving heirs to both the Vale and North along with the Riverlands in his own right. That's 3 of the 7 kingdoms and he's allied with the Reach still. He's in a position to be the "Warwick" of Westeros (Wars of the Roses reference...a fairly obvious one too for anyone who's ever read even a wiki page on English history). He'll never be king in his own right but you better believe he has a plan to sit his pawn on the throne eventually.

I know there are all kinds of theories that Jaqen = Syrio, but I think some people have shown that the timeline doesn't work for that (Yoren searched the dungeons before Syrio was killed, or something...not really sure). I don't really believe it, in any case. What is kind of interesting is when Arya seems to hear Syrio's voice as she's sneaking out of the Red Keep. And it's not just a flashback, it's a full-fledged Obi-Wan "use the Force, Luke" moment where she can literally hear him. What's up with that?

Two ridiculous theories I hear all the time are this one and the "Iron Throne is made of Valyrian Swords". Both are ridiculous. I think its important to remember that Arya is like 8 years old and a scared little girl so her POV isn't really reliable.

On that other theory, do we really think that the Targaryens would willingly toss away a bunch of Valyrian swords given that even they couldn't make them anymore and they still had Dragons (a necessary component). As far as we've been told, there's only a couple hundred such blades in the entire Seven Kingdoms...it'd be astronomically stupid to throw them away like that.

Terez
06-09-2015, 07:44 AM
She'd just been gang raped by his men...so her goal was to kill him all along.
In the book her poultice was some normal herb stuff and Drogo took it off because it itched and put something else on it. It's actually not clear that she was trying to kill him then despite her admitting she had the motive.

Davian93
06-09-2015, 07:47 AM
In the book her poultice was some normal herb stuff and Drogo took it off because it itched and put something else on it. It's actually not clear that she was trying to kill him then despite her admitting she had the motive.

Yeah, I know. But its pretty clear she wasn't exactly going out of her way to save him given her comments to Dany after it all went down. I highly doubt that poultice was anything more than just mud and some nice smelling herbs.

Kimon
06-09-2015, 12:32 PM
I thought this was a cool homage to RJ (from the Arya POV where she sees Ned beheaded). At least, I assume that's basically what it is:

This is almost copy and pasted from the ending of one of the WoT books. I forget which...tGH or tDR, I think.


It's the last chapter of tGH - Ch 50. It is quite similar stylistically - similar parallelisms, similar anaphorae. Nice catch.

rand
06-10-2015, 03:05 PM
Just a fancy way of telling her she's barren and won't ever have anymore human kids.
That's definitely what it seemed liked for four books. But then when all that stuff happens at the end of Dance, it's hard to believe it was just a coincidence and GRRM unknowingly fulfilled his own prophecy from book 1.

Another way to interpret the Drogo returning part is that when Dany has another kid, she'll name it Drogo.

In the book her poultice was some normal herb stuff and Drogo took it off because it itched and put something else on it. It's actually not clear that she was trying to kill him then despite her admitting she had the motive.
That's what makes all the stuff with MMD confusing at the end of the book. See doesn't appear to actively poison Drogo or anything, yet she later confesses her motives. Similarly, it doesn't seem as though Rhaego would have died if Jorah hadn't carried Dany into the tent. Yet MMD all but confesses to killing Rhaego so the Stallion Who Mounts the World wouldn't survive to pillage everywhere. She basically admits to everything, even though it doesn't seem like she actually did anything directly. Maybe she just got lucky that things worked out like they did and she was just gloating over it when she "admitted" to doing all of it.

rand
03-16-2016, 06:14 PM
I kind of got massively sidetracked from my asoiaf reread, so I decided to start over again before the new season of GoT starts. As a side note, I'm finding it massively harder to reread through these longer series (asoiaf, WoT, Malazan) now that I'm older/have a job(s), etc. It just takes so long to read them now with everyhting else going on that I inevitably find something new and shorter to read that distracts me. Or I'll start thinking, holy crap, you've already read this four or five times, why waste months trying to do it yet again? Anyone else get this?

Anyway, I'm about halfway through aGoT right now. I've actually answered one of my own questions from my original reread:
On a side note, why did Varys imply to Ned that Ser Hugh had killed Jon Arryn? We know from her own mouth that it was Lysa herself, so why would Varys try to blame Hugh? Furthermore, why would Gregor have killed Hugh in the tourney? Is it possible Hugh's death was just a coincidence, and Varys was tricked into believing it was him?
Though he does indeed mention Hugh eventually, Varys starts by telling Ned this:
"There was one boy. All he was, he owed Jon Arryn, but when the widow fled to the Eyrie with her household, he stayed in King's Landing and prospered. It always gladdens my heart to see the young rise in the world."
Varys is talking about Littlefinger, not Ser Hugh. Varys has likely (and correctly) guessed that flat-out telling Ned that Littlefinger did it would make Ned do something stupid, a la giving Cersei a night to think about leaving before he arrested her. Furthermore, the Hound suggests Gregor saw that Ser Hugh had improperly fastened his gorget due to not having a personal squire. Gregor saw this and killed him. There was no reason or motive, Gregor just did it because he saw the opportunity and knew he could get away with it. All of this, in my mind at least, explains why Hugh seems to be shown as the killer in book 1, only for it to be revealed later that Lysa did it. (There's also the Tears of Lys - Lysa - Alyssa's Tears connection that kind of suggests Lysa did it).




One think I'm not sure I understand is why Robert makes such a huge deal out of Dany's pregnancy. Aerys already has an heir - Viserys - who is actively (albeit incompetentlly) scheming to retake Westeros. All we really get is a throwaway line saying Jon Arryn had been comvincing Robert not to kill Viserys these past thirteen years, but that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. It seems as though GRRM wrote this knowing he'd kill off Viserys shortly after, but Robert certainly didn't know that. I just don't get how Dany's son would be more of a threat than Viserys already is.

Terez
03-16-2016, 06:29 PM
Viserys had no army. Dany did, and she also had an heir.

Davian93
03-16-2016, 07:27 PM
Viserys had no army. Dany did, and she also had an heir.

Its also basically lifted right out of Henry VII's obsession with all the remaining Lancaster and York heirs after he took the English throne...and every other York and Lancaster claimant for the 30 years prior being terrified of potential heirs as focuses of rebellions against their "rightful" rule. Henry VII was particularly merciless though and his throne was very unstable during his reign as a result. Hell, even Henry VII had issues with false claims and pretenders to the Plantagenet claim to the English throne. So, pretty common in GRRM's source material is the point I'm making.

rand
03-17-2016, 10:18 PM
Viserys had no army. Dany did, and she also had an heir.

Was Robert even aware of this? I mean, does he know enough about Dothraki culture to realize the army would follow Dany and not Viserys? Even then, Dany really has no say on what the army does--it's Drogo's, not hers. Now I guess Jorah could have mentioned all this, but there's no indication he said anything other than that Dany was pregnant. Maybe Robert knew the full extent of Viserys' incompetence, but even so it seems really out of character for him to dismiss Viserys for over a decade when he's sworn to kill all the Targaryens.

Rand al'Fain
03-17-2016, 11:29 PM
Was Robert even aware of this? I mean, does he know enough about Dothraki culture to realize the army would follow Dany and not Viserys? Even then, Dany really has no say on what the army does--it's Drogo's, not hers. Now I guess Jorah could have mentioned all this, but there's no indication he said anything other than that Dany was pregnant. Maybe Robert knew the full extent of Viserys' incompetence, but even so it seems really out of character for him to dismiss Viserys for over a decade when he's sworn to kill all the Targaryens.

I don't think Robert cared which Targaryen was in charge. I think he just wanted Targaryens in general dead. He never really struck me as one who really thought his actions through, just went with his first thought. And to Robert, the only good Targaryen, is a dead Targaryen.

Terez
03-18-2016, 12:18 AM
Was Robert even aware of this? I mean, does he know enough about Dothraki culture to realize the army would follow Dany and not Viserys? Even then, Dany really has no say on what the army does--it's Drogo's, not hers. Now I guess Jorah could have mentioned all this, but there's no indication he said anything other than that Dany was pregnant. Maybe Robert knew the full extent of Viserys' incompetence, but even so it seems really out of character for him to dismiss Viserys for over a decade when he's sworn to kill all the Targaryens.
It's been a while since I did a reread, but I distinctly remember Ned and Robert having the conversation about whether the Dothraki would ever cross the Narrow Sea. And he did not exactly dismiss Viserys; there were several assassination attempts, the ever-present "hired knives". It just got more serious when Dany got married and pregnant and had an army.

rand
03-18-2016, 10:14 PM
The hired knives thing is just something Viserys made up out of paranoia. Dany's first PoV shows there were never any assassination attempts against them. And when Ned and Robert talk on the Kingsroad, all Robert says is that he "should" have tried to kill Viserys and Dany earlier, but Jon Arryn always talked him out of it. So Robert more or less ignored the Targaryen heirs until he heard about Dany and Drogo's baby.

rand
03-22-2016, 03:42 PM
I thought this was pretty neat foreshadowing for Theon:
Bran PoV
Theon Greyjoy had once commented that Hodor did not know much, but no one could doubt that he knew his name.

There's actually a lot of great foreshadowing in aGoT. Several characters (Jon and Tyrion) say "You Starks are hard to kill," foreshadowing the fact that essentially every single Stark dies or is at least presumed dead at some point, many of which either aren't dead or come back from the dead.

There's a couple interesting quotes that seem to indicate Arya will die if she doesn't return to Westeros and become a Stark again:
Jon to Arya
You had best run back to your room, little sister. Septa Mordane will surely be lurking. The longer you hide, the sterner the penance. You'll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers.
Eddard to Arya
Let me tell you something about wolves, child. When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.
Basically just foreshadowing that Arya will leave the House of Black and White and flee Braavos for Westeros.


I've noticed this before, but I've always thought this was really cool: everyone notices the direwolf that's been killed by the stag right at the beginning in Bran's first PoV. Even though the symbolism isn't fully explained, it's obviously meant to show that House Baratheon will lead to the downfall of House Stark. But later on when Robert goes hunting, he isn't searching for the giant boar at first but a white hart. He doesn't start looking for the boar until this happens:
Littlefinger to Eddard
They found the white hart, it seems...or rather, what remained of it. Some wolves found it first, and left His Grace scarcely more than a hoof and a horn. Robert was in a fury, until he heard talk of a monstrous boar deeper in the forest. Then nothing would do but he must have it.
So we literally get the exact opposite symbolism: that House Stark will lead to the downfall of House Baratheon (or Robert, at least--maybe Renly and Stannis are the hoof and the horn?). Anyway, I thought this was cool; I don't see people talk about it that much. It's also interesting to note that a white hart is sort of a legendary stag, just as a direwolf is sort of a legendary wolf.


And this makes me wonder, is House Baratheon completely gone once Stannis dies? Renly had no kids, and GRRM I think has confirmed that Stannis's daughter Shireen will in fact die in the books as well as the show (though not necessarily in the same manner). Tommen and Myrcella are still kicking around, but even with the illegitimacy aside, it's heavily foreshadowed that they'll both die soon. I suppose it's possible for Stannis to still have a male heir, but unlikely at this point in the story, regardless of the outcome of the Battle of Winterfell. I checked the appendix at the end of aDwD (the most detailed one), and the only other relatives it lists for Tommen are some Estermont cousins and uncles. So it seems as though the Baratheon line will be completely destroyed once Stannis bites it.

Kimon
03-22-2016, 04:17 PM
And this makes me wonder, is House Baratheon completely gone once Stannis dies? Renly had no kids, and GRRM I think has confirmed that Stannis's daughter Shireen will in fact die in the books as well as the show (though not necessarily in the same manner). Tommen and Myrcella are still kicking around, but even with the illegitimacy aside, it's heavily foreshadowed that they'll both die soon. I suppose it's possible for Stannis to still have a male heir, but unlikely at this point in the story, regardless of the outcome of the Battle of Winterfell. I checked the appendix at the end of aDwD (the most detailed one), and the only other relatives it lists for Tommen are some Estermont cousins and uncles. So it seems as though the Baratheon line will be completely destroyed once Stannis bites it.

There are still his actual bastards - most notably Edric Storm, but also Mya Stone and Gendry. If he survives, Edric will likely become legitimized eventually. And if he doesn't, either Gendry and/or Mya.

Davian93
03-22-2016, 07:31 PM
I would imagine there are several scions that were married into other families...ie sons of Baratheon daughters a couple generations back. Kind of like how those grandsons and great grandsons and great, great grandsons of Edward III kept making claims on the English throne for a couple generations...the basis of the Jane Grey claim for example is among them IIRC.

Thus, one of them would likely technically inherit the title and lands associated with the old Storm Kings. Of course, the new ruler (whoever it ends up being) will likely just award that castle and its lands to a loyal supporter the same way Stannis got Dragonstone and Littlefinger got Harrenhal.

Edit: Memory failing, Jane was the great granddaughter of Henry VII who was descended from John of Gaunt (Edward III's son). That was what I was remembering among others. A rather tenuous bloodline claim to say the least but much like Robert he won his throne on the battlefield.

rand
03-23-2016, 11:27 AM
There are still his actual bastards - most notably Edric Storm, but also Mya Stone and Gendry. If he survives, Edric will likely become legitimized eventually. And if he doesn't, either Gendry and/or Mya.
But without any actual Baratheon lords, who's going to legitimize them? The king/queen could do it, but that depends on who becomes the new rulers of Westeros and whether or not they'd care about reviving House Baratheon. I could see Tyrion doing it, maybe. And Jon might have a soft spot for bastards. But what if Dany is the ultimate ruler? Would she restore the house that destroyed her family and led to her exile?

I would imagine there are several scions that were married into other families...ie sons of Baratheon daughters a couple generations back. Kind of like how those grandsons and great grandsons and great, great grandsons of Edward III kept making claims on the English throne for a couple generations...the basis of the Jane Grey claim for example is among them IIRC.

Thus, one of them would likely technically inherit the title and lands associated with the old Storm Kings. Of course, the new ruler (whoever it ends up being) will likely just award that castle and its lands to a loyal supporter the same way Stannis got Dragonstone and Littlefinger got Harrenhal.
Possible, I guess, though it would pretty much require GRRM to invent a new character, or to bring back one of the Estermonts that are really only seen/mentioned in passing.





When Ned edits Robert's final will to say "my heirs" instead of "my son Joffrey," he thinks to himself The lies we tell for love. Which is an obvious parallel to Jaime's "The things we do for love." And Ned thinks earlier on that he might have done the same thing as Jaime if he'd been in his position, forced to choose between his own children's safety and the child of a stranger. Of course, Ned thinks he's protecting Joffrey from Robert's wrath by lying so he can send him and Cersei into exile after Robert dies, but it's still interesting to note this similarity between the honorable Eddard Stark and the dishonorable Jaime Lannister.

Why is Syrio Forel in King's Landing? Since he agreed to return to Winterfell with the Starks, it seems he is no longer the First Sword of Braavos. But if this is the case, why was he fired? He admits to Arya that he was the best swordsman in Braavos, so what the hell is doing kicking around in King's Landing with enough free time on his hands to train Arya? And to leave for the North afterward...

It might be worth noting that there are dinosaurs on the planet still. I think they live on the southern continent of Sothoryos, but the Sealord of Braavos apparently has one in his menagerie:
Syrio to Arya
Here me. The ships of Braavos sail as far as the winds blow, to lands strange and wonderful, and when they return their captains fetch queer animals to the Sealord's menagerie. Such animals as you have never seen, striped horses, great spotted things with necks as long as stilts, hairy mouse-pigs as big as cows, stinging manticores, tigers that carry their cubs in a pouch, terrible walking lizards with scythes for claws. Syrio Forel has seen these thigns.
The way it's described ("terrible lizard" literally = "dino saur") leaves little room for debate. So maybe Arya will return to Westeros riding on a velociraptor...

When Robb decides to lead his northern army himself, both Maester Luwin and later Catelyn advise him that he shouldn't have done so and should have sent someone else in his place. Fair enough. But one of their candidates? Theon! They both tell Robb he should have sent Theon to lead the Stark armies in war against the Lannisters. Seriously, wtf?

Kimon
03-23-2016, 05:26 PM
It might be worth noting that there are dinosaurs on the planet still. I think they live on the southern continent of Sothoryos, but the Sealord of Braavos apparently has one in his menagerie:

The way it's described ("terrible lizard" literally = "dino saur") leaves little room for debate. So maybe Arya will return to Westeros riding on a velociraptor...


This shouldn't be much of a surprise considering the presence of dragons. Indeed, these might just be intended as flightless dragons. Of course, these might also just be a reference to something like crocodiles or komodo dragons.

Davian93
03-24-2016, 12:04 PM
http://www.timetravelturtle.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Indonesia-2012-792_web-lrg.jpg

terrible lizard with claws...

Rand al'Fain
03-24-2016, 06:51 PM
http://www.timetravelturtle.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Indonesia-2012-792_web-lrg.jpg

terrible lizard with claws...

While I have no doubt a Komodo Dragon would be rather intimidating on first encounter, it doesn't quite strike me as a "terrible lizard with scythes for claws".

It's not a stretch to think that something else ancient lives in the Southern reaches of the world when mammoths live beyond the Wall. Perhaps something like this is what is described.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalania

Think Komodo Dragon, but supersized. Lived in Australia about 40,000-50,000 years ago. Or we could go a step further with actual dinosaurs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utahraptor

You know those raptors in Jurassic Park? That's basically the Utah Raptor.

Davian93
03-24-2016, 07:54 PM
Considering its also a world with other megafauna like the Aurochs and Direwolf, that's a good supposition to make.

Oh and Giants, Dragons, Greenseers, etc...


Note: Technically, I suppose the Aurochs isn't really megafauna but it was driven to extinction by human encroachment in much the same way.

Rand al'Fain
03-24-2016, 09:10 PM
Considering its also a world with other megafauna like the Aurochs and Direwolf, that's a good supposition to make.

Oh and Giants, Dragons, Greenseers, etc...


Note: Technically, I suppose the Aurochs isn't really megafauna but it was driven to extinction by human encroachment in much the same way.

Aurochs. Really mean wild cows. The Nazis actually tried to "recreate" the auruchs. Physically, they more or less did. But genetically, what's dead is dead. What they made were a breed of super aggressive cows that ran amok for awhile in a forest in what was Prussia/Poland.

Back on topic, yeah. Giants, dragons (only 3 known living ones), and greenseers. Oh my! Sounds like Skyrim.

Davian93
03-24-2016, 09:20 PM
Aurochs. Really mean wild cows. The Nazis actually tried to "recreate" the auruchs. Physically, they more or less did. But genetically, what's dead is dead. What they made were a breed of super aggressive cows that ran amok for awhile in a forest in what was Prussia/Poland.

Back on topic, yeah. Giants, dragons (only 3 known living ones), and greenseers. Oh my! Sounds like Skyrim.

yeah, I believe they were called Heck Cattle? You can breed something to make it look like one but bringing the actual species back is kinda impossible. Its not just looks or even really genetics.

rand
03-24-2016, 11:55 PM
The fact that Syrio calls it a "walking" lizard makes me think it walks on its hind legs, or else he wouldn't mention that at all since all lizards technically walk.

I checked in the World of Ice and Fire book (which is really great, btw, if you guys haven't seen it. It's essentially GRRM's version of the Big White Book, but about a thousand times better. The artwork is amazing.) and under the Sothoryos section it says:
GRRM
Farther south lie the regions known as the Green Hell, where beasts even more fearsome are said to dwell. There, if the tales are to be trusted, are caverns full of pale white vampire bats who can drain the blood from a man in minutes. Tattooed lizards stalk the jungles, running down their prey and ripping them apart with the long curved claws on their powerful hind legs. Snakes fifty feet long slither through the underbrush, and spotted spiders weave their webs amongst the great trees.
So they definitely sound more like raptor-type animals than actual lizards. Also FWIW, it says there are wyverns living deep in the jungles of Sothoryos which are "close kin to dragons." So there are still basically mini dragons in the world, even if the full-sized ones are (supposedly) extinct.

Terez
03-25-2016, 04:26 AM
Can you imagine trying to keep a raptor in a menagerie?

GonzoTheGreat
03-25-2016, 04:31 AM
Can you imagine trying to keep a raptor in a menagerie?
That's what a ruler has minions for, isn't it?

Davian93
03-25-2016, 08:37 AM
I checked in the World of Ice and Fire book (which is really great, btw, if you guys haven't seen it. It's essentially GRRM's version of the Big White Book, but about a thousand times better. The artwork is amazing.)

I got that for Christmas maybe 2 years ago...still haven't opened it. I should probably get around to doing that.

Southpaw2012
03-25-2016, 02:38 PM
There's never a good time to reread, as it's nearly impossible to predict when he will finish the next book.

Davian93
03-25-2016, 03:05 PM
There's never a good time to reread, as it's nearly impossible to predict when he will finish the next book.

Fucking Libs, right?


Sorry, sorry. I'm just kidding around because of your comment on the non-wot about not being able to post anywhere without it being twisted.

Seriously though, I agree. What's the point of rereading at this point? He's likely never gonna finish at this point. I dont think he cares. I think he's happier going to conventions, being fawned over by fans and doing everything but writing it. A shame as the books were very good early on.

rand
03-29-2016, 02:03 PM
I got that for Christmas maybe 2 years ago...still haven't opened it. I should probably get around to doing that.
Yeah, I'd definitely recommend it. It's worth it just to flip through and see the artwork.





Finished aGoT. Again.

Was the wine merchant assassin that tries to kill Dany planted by Varys because Varys knew the guy was incompetent and wouldn't be able to hurt Dany? I mean, not only does he not actively hunt out Dany and try to give her the poisoned wine, he doesn't even have a clue who she is when she goes up to his shop. One of her handmaids has to tell the guy who she is. So how on earth was he expected to actually kill her if he didn't even know her except by name?



I thought this was pretty funny foreshadowing:
Robb to Catelyn
"...by all reports, [Tywin] has more men than I do, and a lot more armored horse. The Greatjon says that won't matter if we catch him with his breeches down, but it seems to me that a man who has fought as many battles as Tywin Lannister won't be so easily surprised."




And speaking of Tywin, how did he not realize that Robb's forces had split at the Twins? His scouts might not have been close enough to actually see the split, but they were still in the area:
Tywin
"Ser Addam's outriders say the Stark host has moved south from the Twins," his father reported as his trencher was filled with slices of pork. "Lord Frey's levies have joined them. They are likely no more than a day's march north of us."

Even if he didn't know about the split, Tywin should have guessed. Why else would Robb stop at the Twins? Just to visit with Walder? They didn't exactly have a great need for the Frey soldiers.



I found this quote from Dany interesting:
"Death?" Dany wrapped her arms around herself protectively, rocked back and forth "My death?" She told herself she would die for [Drogo], if she must. She was the blood of the dragon, she would not be afraid. Her brother Rhaegar had died for the woman he loved.
Is this a common narrative, that Rhaegar had loved Lyanna? We never get Ned's thoughts on it (for obvious reasons), and Robert thinks Rhaegar was raping Lyanna "hundreds of times". But what does everyone else believe regarding Rhaegar and Lyanna? Dany has apparently heard that they were actually in love, but was that from Viserys, or is this common knowledge in Westeros?



I noticed that the geography of King's Landing changes a bit between aGoT and the rest of the series. In the Arya chapter where Eddard is beheaded, she mentions visiting all the city gates every day, but that there's no way through any of them, trapping her in the city. A couple paragraphs later she goes down to the harbor...which is outside the city gates in the subsequent books, but apparently not this one. She even mentioned the mud/river gate earlier in the chapter, which connects the city to the harbor, but GRRM must have moved it there later on. Catelyn also never mentions walking through the mud gate after she lands at the docks. I'm assuming GRRM changed this when he realized Stannis would be able to just walk right into the city at the end of aCoK if there was no wall there.



Another interesting quote (from one of Joffrey's courts):
Sansa PoV
A thief was brought before him and he had Ser Ilyn chop his hand off, right there in court. Two knights came to him with a dispute about some land, and he declared that they should duel for it on the morrow. "To the death," he added. A woman fell to her knees to plead for the head of a man executed as a traitor. She had loved him, she said, and she wanted to see him decently buried. "If you loved a traitor, you must be a traitor too," Joffrey said. Two gold cloaks dragged her off to the dungeons.

Is the traitor Ned? Presumably the man's name was mentioned, which Sansa obviously would have recognized had it been her own father's. But who else had been executed as a traitor? All the Stark loyalists were killed, but they weren't officially executed or beheaded so much as butchered all over the keep. This just seems like a weird thing for GRRM to add if it wasn't some sort of reference to Ned, though I can't see how it could be...



Sansa apparently has a terrible memory. A lot of people know about the "unkiss," where Sansa continously mentions the Hound kissing her during the battle of the Blackwater--yet if you go back and reread the chapter, he never kisses her. At the end of aGoT, she remembers Janos Slynt "[throwing] down her father for Ser Ilyn to behead." This isn't the only time she remembers Janos Slynt personally throwing Ned to the ground, IIRC. But in Arya's PoV where she sees to actual beheading, we get this:
Arya PoV
High atop the pulpit, Ser Ilyn Payne gestured and the knight in black-and-gold gave a command. The gold cloaks flung Lord Eddard to the marble, with his head and chest out over the edge.

So Janos Slynt (the knight in black-and-gold) gave the command to throw Ned down, but it was just a couple random gold cloaks who actually did it.



Who pays for the Night's Watch? I think it's mentioned that the people living in the Gift owe taxes to them or something, but that can hardly be enough to pay for the entire Night's Watch. It doesn't seem likely that any of the great houses owe them taxes, as none of the turmoil in the Seven Kingdoms, not to mentioned the destruction of house Stark, seems to effect the Night's Watch budget.



And finally a question about Dany's son Rhaego. This may be going way too far down the looney theory path, but does anyone think Rhaego could still be alive somewhere? I'd wondered this before I got to the relevant chapters but figured "Nah, Jorah wouldn't lie to Dany about that." But then in the actual chapter where Dany finds out her son is dead, we see that Jorah never actually saw Rhaego at all. When Dany asks him about Rhaego, he says "The women say..." [...] "They say the child was..." Then Mirri Maz Duur chirps in and describes Rhaego's corpse. So Jorah never saw him, being born or afterward or anything. It's unclear who else was in the tent when Rhaego was born. All the Dothraki were clearly terrified of the shadow dancers MMD had summoned. In any event, MMD is the only person we know for sure actually saw Rhaego, and we know of no one else who did. It's never mentioned if his body is buried or burned or anything like that. So theoretically, it seems possible to me that if GRRM wanted to, he could bring Rhaego back and just say that MMD lied about his death, and that she gave the baby to the new Khal Jhaqo or something.

GonzoTheGreat
03-30-2016, 03:48 AM
And finally a question about Dany's son Rhaego. This may be going way too far down the looney theory path, but does anyone think Rhaego could still be alive somewhere? I'd wondered this before I got to the relevant chapters but figured "Nah, Jorah wouldn't lie to Dany about that." But then in the actual chapter where Dany finds out her son is dead, we see that Jorah never actually saw Rhaego at all. When Dany asks him about Rhaego, he says "The women say..." [...] "They say the child was..." Then Mirri Maz Duur chirps in and describes Rhaego's corpse. So Jorah never saw him, being born or afterward or anything. It's unclear who else was in the tent when Rhaego was born. All the Dothraki were clearly terrified of the shadow dancers MMD had summoned. In any event, MMD is the only person we know for sure actually saw Rhaego, and we know of no one else who did. It's never mentioned if his body is buried or burned or anything like that. So theoretically, it seems possible to me that if GRRM wanted to, he could bring Rhaego back and just say that MMD lied about his death, and that she gave the baby to the new Khal Jhaqo or something.
Obviously, Rhaego is being raised by seven dwarfs and a wicked witch who plans to eat him when he is fat enough. Which of those will come out on top we'll have to wait and read when (if, really) GRRM finishes his fairy tale.

Davian93
03-30-2016, 11:47 AM
Was the wine merchant assassin that tries to kill Dany planted by Varys because Varys knew the guy was incompetent and wouldn't be able to hurt Dany? I mean, not only does he not actively hunt out Dany and try to give her the poisoned wine, he doesn't even have a clue who she is when she goes up to his shop. One of her handmaids has to tell the guy who she is. So how on earth was he expected to actually kill her if he didn't even know her except by name?


I thought Mormont paid that guy...to get her guard up and to give him an in with her by "saving her".

Even if he didn't know about the split, Tywin should have guessed. Why else would Robb stop at the Twins? Just to visit with Walder? They didn't exactly have a great need for the Frey soldiers

A couple good reasons to stop:

1. You dont want a potentially hostile force in your rearguard and Frey's a pretty powerful lord when it comes to troops. Hell, he gives Robb something like 4000 men and I doubt that's all of his available forces. That's a dangerous man to have behind you if he's not on your side. As he is technically sworn to the Tully family, it would make sense for Robb (half Tully) to try and enlist his substantial support.

2. Robb was vastly outnumbered by the Lannisters so it made sense to get as much support as possible so Tywin simply guessed wrong. Even with Frey support, he was still pretty badly outnumbered...so it was even more ballsy to split his forces in such a scenario.

3. Tywin arrogantly underestimated Robb as he saw him as a green untested boy. He was kinda right in the end even if Robb proved to be a better battle commander than everyone thought. His inability to keep it in his pants lost him his kingdom.

Is this a common narrative, that Rhaegar had loved Lyanna? We never get Ned's thoughts on it (for obvious reasons), and Robert thinks Rhaegar was raping Lyanna "hundreds of times". But what does everyone else believe regarding Rhaegar and Lyanna? Dany has apparently heard that they were actually in love, but was that from Viserys, or is this common knowledge in Westeros?


Throughout Westeros? No. Within the immediate circle of Rheager and the Targaryens...yes, it was. Everyone that mattered other than Robert basically was in the know. Ned clearly knew and it was part of why he probably protected his nephew Jon from Robert's wrath.

Is the traitor Ned? Presumably the man's name was mentioned, which Sansa obviously would have recognized had it been her own father's. But who else had been executed as a traitor? All the Stark loyalists were killed, but they weren't officially executed or beheaded so much as butchered all over the keep. This just seems like a weird thing for GRRM to add if it wasn't some sort of reference to Ned, though I can't see how it could be...

Not Ned, just a random example of Joffrey's tyranny as well as illustrating his failures as a king to inspire his people through anything other than fear.

Sansa apparently has a terrible memory.

Eyewitness accounts are notoriously unreliable...particularly when its a very traumatic event for the witness (such as the violent murder of a young girl's father in front of her). No surprise that she remembers it differently than Arya or even 20 other people that were there that likely all have differing accounts of exactly what happened.

Who pays for the Night's Watch? I think it's mentioned that the people living in the Gift owe taxes to them or something, but that can hardly be enough to pay for the entire Night's Watch. It doesn't seem likely that any of the great houses owe them taxes, as none of the turmoil in the Seven Kingdoms, not to mentioned the destruction of house Stark, seems to effect the Night's Watch budget.


Nobody pays them. The Gift and the New Gift are theirs to use and they can collect taxes from tenants there as well as raise crops, herd cattle, etc. Otherwise, they take gifts and hope for charity from the Seven Kingdoms. That's why they have Stewards and whatnot to raise food, hunt it, administer those lands, etc.

I'd imagine that the Starks were probably pretty strong supporters in the form of charity, extra supplies, etc though as were other northern families that are mentioned as "friends of the Watch" a couple times in the books.

And finally a question about Dany's son Rhaego. This may be going way too far down the looney theory path, but does anyone think Rhaego could still be alive somewhere?

No, and if GRRM were to actually do that, I'd be even more disappointed in him as an author than I already am.

Terez
03-31-2016, 11:42 PM
There's one time when Ned is talking to Arya and comparing her to Lyanna, and he tells Arya that Lyanna died because she was strong-willed. That clearly implies that she left with Rhaegar of her own free will. There are all sorts of other clues, but that one is the clearest I recall seeing on my last reread.

Rand al'Fain
04-01-2016, 01:03 AM
You know what would be a REAL dick move if George R. R. Martin continued the series would be?

If he threw out the R+L=J and threw in something else.

rand
04-06-2016, 02:06 PM
Almost halfway through aCoK.

Practically every character gets a different meaning from the red comet. While most of it just seems like a bunch of superstition, its appearance over Drogo's pyre before the dragons hatch seems like the most significant interpretation (ie, hailing the birth of the dragons). Old Nan seems to confirm this, saying she can smell the comet and that it means there are dragons in the world again. But the comet actually appears before the final chapter of aGoT. Bran and Maester Luwin are looking at it through a telescope in the chapter they learn of Ned's death. The significance of this? Dany gives birth to a stillborn Rhaego in the next chapter. Perhaps another hint that Rhaego is still alive, and the comet was a herald for him. Now I'm not saying I believe Rhaego is still around somewhere. I don't, really, and I think it would be a fairly cheap move from GRRM if that happened. But I think the groundwork is there for Rhaego to be brought back. There's enough evidence that he's still alive (or, at least, not dead) at the end of aGoT for a potential return to not be completely out of the blue.




So aside from the Targaryens, there are two other Valyrian houses in Westeros: Velaryon and Celtigar, both sworn to Dragonstone. The difference is that these two houses weren't dragonlords like the Targaryens (who were one of about forty dragonlord families, and a fairly insignificant one at that). The Velaryons rule the island of Driftmark and the Celtigars rule Claw Isle. I'm mostly just curious as to if these two houses will play any further role in the series, potentially by aiding Dany. The Velaryons, for example, actually arrived in Westeros before the Targaryens, were very strong allies of Aegon the Conqueror, and were heavily intermarried with the Targaryens. From what I remember, the lords of both these houses were either killed or captured in the Battle of the Blackwater (though I could be wrong; I haven't gotten there yet in my reread). I think the only significant member of either house still involved in the story is Aurane Waters, the Bastard of Driftmark, who Cersei named Master of Ships and apparently looks like Rhaegar. IIRC, he fled King's Landing after Cersei's arrest and became a pirate. This seems somewhat random, so I'm wondering if he's actually gone to seek out Dany.

What's also worth noting (and I'm getting a lot of this info from The World of Ice and Fire, btw) is that House Baratheon is basically just an offshoot of House Targaryen. The first Baratheon, Orys, was the bastard brother of Aegon the Conqueror. He captured Storm's End from House Durrandon during the Conquest, and was reward with that castle and the title of Storm Lord, and thus House Baratheon was born. Kind of just a cool thing to keep in mind.




Melisandre's supporters on Dragonstone, known as "queen's men," seem absolutely devoted to R'hllor and his religion except in one aspect--knighthood. Knighthood is an aspect of the Andal religion, as they are annointed with the seven oils of the seven faces of god, etc. But they all keep their "sers" on Dragonstone. Even the castellan Ser Axell Florent, who is basically Selyse's/Melisandre's staunchest supporter, doesn't renounce his knighthood. And almost more surprisingly, Melisandre never asks anyone to do so. They burn the statues of the gods and renounce their faith, but the knights keep on being knights, devoted to the Seven.





Why do the three representatives of Qarth--Xaro, Quaithe, and Pyat Pree--ride out into the middle of a deadly desert by themselves, with no escort, trusting to the word of an enemy Dothraki that a thirteen-year-old girl is in possession of three mythical creatures? I mean, it works out for Dany obviously, but I'm not sure I get why they go out to find her, and without any kind of guard.





How do ravens/carrier pigeons work? Any individual raven would only know how to fly between two specific places, right? Like, there would be a Winterfell-Riverrun raven that only knows how to fly between Winterfell and Riverrun? I ask this because Stannis says he has 117 ravens, and he's going to send them to 117 different lords to denounce Joffrey as a bastard. It seems sort of unbelievable that the rookery on Dragonstone would have a single raven for each of those 117 locations, with no doubles for the more important places. Also, how does Stannis get the ravens back if he sends out every single one he has? Is it just common courtesy to return the ravens, even to an enemy?





Why would Riverrun foster someone as lowly as Littlefinger? I forget if this is ever explained. But it would be like if Tywin Lannister agreed to foster Rodrik Cassell's daughter Beth at Casterly Rock. Just seems kind of weird for such a powerful house.

Davian93
04-06-2016, 03:46 PM
Why would Riverrun foster someone as lowly as Littlefinger? I forget if this is ever explained. But it would be like if Tywin Lannister agreed to foster Rodrik Cassell's daughter Beth at Casterly Rock. Just seems kind of weird for such a powerful house.

Good question...probably because the plot requires it or something like that. Maybe Littlefinger's dad was a brave soldier during the war or something like that. They never explain it that I can recall...especially since its an entire different kingdom compared to where Littlefinger's family is from (the Vale and the Riverlands respectively).

I think the only significant member of either house still involved in the story is Aurane Waters, the Bastard of Driftmark, who Cersei named Master of Ships and apparently looks like Rhaegar. IIRC, he fled King's Landing after Cersei's arrest and became a pirate. This seems somewhat random, so I'm wondering if he's actually gone to seek out Dany.


I tend to think Aurane Waters was just a great example of how awful Cersei is as a judge of character and as a ruler. I tend to think he really is just a pirate now.

Melisandre's supporters on Dragonstone, known as "queen's men," seem absolutely devoted to R'hllor and his religion except in one aspect--knighthood. Knighthood is an aspect of the Andal religion, as they are annointed with the seven oils of the seven faces of god, etc. But they all keep their "sers" on Dragonstone. Even the castellan Ser Axell Florent, who is basically Selyse's/Melisandre's staunchest supporter, doesn't renounce his knighthood. And almost more surprisingly, Melisandre never asks anyone to do so. They burn the statues of the gods and renounce their faith, but the knights keep on being knights, devoted to the Seven.

I think they've been reannointed as Knights but as believers of R'hllor...so its okay or something. Same with the Brotherhood (the robin hood ripoff)

Kind of just a cool thing to keep in mind.

Yup, it was Robert's "legitimate" claim to the throne or whatever...basically it was why Ned says "Your claim was stronger" since the Starks have zero legitimate claim since as far as we can tell, outside of Jon Snow, none of them have any Targaryen blood.

Why do the three representatives of Qarth--Xaro, Quaithe, and Pyat Pree--ride out into the middle of a deadly desert by themselves, with no escort, trusting to the word of an enemy Dothraki that a thirteen-year-old girl is in possession of three mythical creatures? I mean, it works out for Dany obviously, but I'm not sure I get why they go out to find her, and without any kind of guard.

Good question again...I'd imagine they also have ways of reading the tea leaves so to speak so knew that dragons had been reborn and were headed their way.

How do ravens/carrier pigeons work? Any individual raven would only know how to fly between two specific places, right? Like, there would be a Winterfell-Riverrun raven that only knows how to fly between Winterfell and Riverrun? I ask this because Stannis says he has 117 ravens, and he's going to send them to 117 different lords to denounce Joffrey as a bastard. It seems sort of unbelievable that the rookery on Dragonstone would have a single raven for each of those 117 locations, with no doubles for the more important places. Also, how does Stannis get the ravens back if he sends out every single one he has? Is it just common courtesy to return the ravens, even to an enemy?

They never explain it but I simply have assumed that ravens in GRRM's world can be trained/instructed on where to fly by the Maesters (hence those special White ones they use for season changes, etc) and are far superior to the pigeon relays we have here in the real world (that are quite limited in range, etc. I also assume that they are able to because the plot requires it.

The Unreasoner
04-07-2016, 04:56 PM
I thought Mormont paid that guy...to get her guard up and to give him an in with her by "saving her".

Mormont doesn't strike me as all that sly in the books. And didn't they kill the merchant? Why didn't he talk?
Good question...probably because the plot requires it or something like that. Maybe Littlefinger's dad was a brave soldier during the war or something like that. They never explain it that I can recall...especially since its an entire different kingdom compared to where Littlefinger's family is from (the Vale and the Riverlands respectively).
Littlefinger's dad befriended Hoster during some war that they fought in.
They never explain it but I simply have assumed that ravens in GRRM's world can be trained/instructed on where to fly by the Maesters (hence those special White ones they use for season changes, etc) and are far superior to the pigeon relays we have here in the real world (that are quite limited in range, etc. I also assume that they are able to because the plot requires it.
I thought they did explain it..most are only smart enough to fly between two locations, though some can be trained to remember a handful.

As for why he trusted people to return his ravens, I imagine that the maesters operate by some code similar to that of the Night's Watch (take no part, and all that). After all, you need to communicate with spies and even negotiate terms directly with an enemy...so unless you want the maesters reading everything and making a judgement on how to respond, they probably send them along in good faith. Which brings me to another point: if the raven network is set up like the internet, it makes sense that they'd have multiple ravens for more important locations, and the maesters always send the raven along to the recipient (or as close as they can manage). Every maester probably has one that can go to Oldtown and King's Landing, and those probably work like major hubs or routers. I mean, some random small house in Dorne probably can't send something directly to Bear Island, but they could send something to Sunspear, who sends something to Winterfell, who then sends it to Bear Island.

Davian93
04-07-2016, 06:41 PM
Littlefinger's dad befriended Hoster during some war that they fought in.

Thanks...I thought it was something like that.

I thought they did explain it..most are only smart enough to fly between two locations, though some can be trained to remember a handful.

Yup, good memory.

Terez
04-09-2016, 07:01 AM
Dav, you remind me of grudging WoT fans at Malazan sometimes. (I don't hang out at Westeros; I drop in there maybe once every other year.)

rand
04-12-2016, 03:12 PM
Yup, it was Robert's "legitimate" claim to the throne or whatever...basically it was why Ned says "Your claim was stronger" since the Starks have zero legitimate claim since as far as we can tell, outside of Jon Snow, none of them have any Targaryen blood.
I think that was in reference to the fact that the Targaryens and Baratheons had intermarried, though. That was only a few generations back I think. But I'm not even sure if anyone is currently aware that the Targaryens literally gave birth to House Baratheon.




Do the Andals have any kind of savior/champion figure in their mythology? I don't remember hearing about one. The First Men have the Last Hero, Asshai has Azor Ahai, the Dothraki have the Stallion Who Mounts the World, and the Valyrians have the Prince that Was Promised, but as far as I know the Andal religion doesn't have anything like that.

Also, while it's likely that these are all just different cultures' ways of describing the same savior figure, I think we can point to characters in the story and tell which one represents which savior:

Last Hero = Bran. The Last Hero set out to find the Children of the Forest with a horse, a dog, and several companions (ie, Hodor, Summer, and the Reeds). They all died exceot the Last Hero himself, which doesn't bode well for Bran's companions...

The Stallion Who Mounts the World = Daenerys. Kind of obvious, since she's the only one connected to the Dothraki. But there are also hints that she's Azor Ahai/The Prince that Was Promised, so who knows...

The Prince that Was Promised = Jon Snow. Rhaegar thought his son was the PtwP, but since he's dead it's likely Jon inherited the title.

Azor Ahai = Tyrion. Admittedly, this is just because the other three were already taken, as Tyrion doesn't really fit well with any of the savior figures.

FWIW I think the three dragonriders will be Dany, Jon, and Tyrion, with Bran possibly getting to warg into one (Tyrion's, maybe).




I forget if this ever elaborated on later in their journey, but do Jojen and Meera Reed know who the three-eyed crow/Bloodraven is?
Bran POV
"You are the winged wolf, Bran," said Jojen. "I wasn't sure when we first came, but now I am. The crow sent us here to break your chains."
"Is the crow at Greywater?"
"No. The crow is in the north."
"At the Wall?" Bran had always wanted to see the Wall. His bastard brother Jon was there now, a man of the Night's Watch.
"Beyond the Wall." Merra Reed hung the net from her belt. "When Jojen told out lord father what he'd dreamed, he sent us to Winterfell."

So they seem to know more about who the three-eyed crow actually is, much more than Bran. Jojen says Bloodraven first came to him when he had greywater fever when he was younger. Which is fine--maybe it's easier for Bloodraven to speak with people in comas or something. The difference is that Jojen seems to know who the three-eyed crow was, what he wanted, and where he was located, whereas all Bran seems to get is a bunch of confusing dreams that make little sense. If Bloodraven wanted Bran so badly, it seems weird that he'd send Jojen all the info but give Bran hardly anything (ie, a way to actually get to him beyond the Wall).

One possibility is that Bloodraven knew he needed Jojen to come to him in addition to Bran. I'm not sure if you guys have heard of it, but there's a theory out there called "Jojen Paste." Basically, it states that Jojen was sacrificed by the Children of the Forest and made into the bloody paste Bran has to drink so he can look through the weirwoods. It sounds pretty goofy, but actually makes sense if you reread Bran's last chapter in aDwD.

rand
04-19-2016, 02:00 PM
I want to talk about Dany in the House of the Undying, but I'll save that for a separate post later as it will be pretty long. For now...


While at the Fist of the First Men, Ghost absolutely refuses to enter the ringfort atop the hill. Why? He eventually goes in later, but only to bring Jon to the cache of dragonglass.

Then there's the dragonglass itself. Who put it there? The only two candidates seem to be Benjen Stark or Coldhands. I'd lean toward the latter. But in any event, when was it put there seems like an even more interesting question. Jon can tell it hasn't been there long, but was it placed there literally while Jon was out following Ghost? He can feel the intense cold associated with the Others, and Ghost takes a weird, erratic trail to get to the cache--almost as if he were following something.




Does Stannis even know that he effectively killed Renly? While talking to Davos, he says this:
For a long time the king did not speak. Then, very softly, he said, "I dream of it sometimes. Of Renly's dying. A green tent, candles, a woman screaming. And blood." Stannis looked down at his hands. "I was still abed when he died. Your Devan will tell you. He tried to wake me. Dawn was nigh and my lords were waiting, fretting. I should have been ahorse, armored. I knew Renly would attack at break of day. Devan says I thrashed and cried out, but what does it matter? It was a dream. I was in my tent when Renly died, and when I woke my hands were clean."
The bolded part makes it seem as though Stannis was still planning on the battle, and had no idea that Renly would be killed that night. Yet just a couple pages later Stannis tells Davos all about how Melisandre saw Renly's death in the flames, and that Ser Cortnay Penrose in Storm's End would die the same way. It also seems unlikely Melisandre could have made the shadow babies with Stannis without him noticing.




Despite the fact that everyone thinks of the Alchemists as a joke, it should be noted that they actually are using magic, as their powers reportedly grow with Dany's dragons in the world.




Did Theon kill his own children? I'm not sure if the timeline works out really, as he's only 20-21 or so at this point, but Theon says he's had sex with the farm wife whose kids he killed to replace Bran and Rickon. Bran is 9 or 10 I think, but the farm kids don't necessarily have to be the same ages. It's a fairly popular theory, I think.

Also, how did Ramsay know they wouldn't find Bran and Rickon? He brought along a bag with Stark brooches, seemingly with the plan of finding two replacement kids right from the start. Did he somehow know Bran and Rickon were hiding in the crypts?

I haven't gotten to the last chapter yet, so I forget exactly how they did it, but didn't Bran's party head out from Winterfell into the woods, then double back to Winterfell, sending the direwolves ahead to make a trail? Theon specifically sends some men back to look for such a double back, but they don't find it. Wouldn't it have been pretty easy to find their second trail heading back to Winterfell, even if they tried to step in their own footprints or something?

rand
04-20-2016, 08:46 PM
All right, I want to go through all the prophecies in the House of the Undying chapter. I think this is probably my favorite chapter from asoiaf, so I want to spend a while on it. It's kind of like the asoiaf equivalent of the columns of Rhuidean, IMO (in terms of how I read it, at least). I want to go through each prophecy one by one, but first just a couple random things about the chapter:

What's up with the super small dwarf servant guy? Seems like a weird detail to include.

What does drinking the shade of the evening actually do? Pyat Pree says she needs it to go in the House. Is Dany basically stoned or something when she goes in, and half of what she sees is just in her head? It's interesting to note that it's made from trees with black bark and blue leaves, similar to Bran's paste being made from white/red weirwood trees. They have similar tastes and effects, too...

There's a big deal made about staying on the path (ie, always use the first door on the right, always take stairs going up)...but the Undying try to kill Dany anyway. If she'd strayed from the path and got lost, would they still get to suck out her soul or whatever? Does staying on the correct path merely guarantee you get true prophecies before you're killed?

And FWIW, I hated this scene in the show. It's like they got rid of everything interesting and added some random stuff that wasn't even in the books. What was the point even? I understand they can't just babble on about random prophecies no casual viewer would understand, but still...they should have included some of the opening doors at least, with the Rhaegar/Prince that Was Promised stuff.

Ok, the prophecy stuff:

1) Sound of rats scurrying in the walls: Varys and his little birds in the Red Keep?




2) Pounding from within doors:




3) Dany hears strange music ("dissonant piping") from another door:




4) A woman savaged by four dwarfs: Westeros destroyed by four kings (Joffrey, Stannis, Robb, and...probably Renly, but Euron could work too. Renly was already dead by this point). Possibly could refer to Margaery as well, as she's already on her third husband and might remarry once Tommen dies.




5) A feast of the dead: The Red Wedding




6) Ser Willem Darry in the house with the red door: Probably just a flashback




7) An old king on the Iron Throne, saying "Let him be king over charred bones and cooked meat. Let him be the king of ashes." Aerys the Mad King giving the order to burn King's Landing to the ground rather than surrender.




8) Rhaegar with a woman and baby Aegon. He says, "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire. There must be one more. The dragon has three heads." The woman is likely Elia Martell, though she isn't described at all so I guess there's a slim chance it's Lyanna. The PtwP seems to be the Valyrian savior figure, similar to (or the exact same as) the Last Hero or Azor Ahai, etc. I'm not sure what the "there must be one more," refers to. Does he mean one more child for him to have?




9) A creature chases after Dany in the shadows: Just generic foreboding, or something more specific. Or was there actually something chasing her in the House of the Undying?




10) Pyat Pree tries to get Dany to follow him out of the House:
It's not clear if this was actually him trying to mislead her, or just a vision. FWIW, Euron Greyjoy captured Pyat Pree and some other warlocks off the coast of Qarth, so it seems likely we'll see him again.



11) Dany passes through this doorway: A set of wide wooden doors had been thrown open. They were fashioned of ebony and weirwood, the black and the white grains swirling and twisting in strange interwoven patterns. They were very beautiful, yet somehow frightening. A reference to the House of Black and White?




12) Dany sees "a great hall and a splendor of wizards": Probably just something to mislead Dany, and nothing specifically prophetic.




Then Dany finds the actual Undying warlocks:

13) "Drink from the cup of ice."




14) "Drink from the cup of fire." Dany will have to unite north and south to fight the Others? Or unite her faction with Jon's, or something along those lines.




15) "Mother of dragons...child of three..." I'm not sure what the "child of three" part means, unless it's saying she's as much a child of her three dragons as they are children of her.




16) "Three heads has the dragon." There needs to be three Targaryen dragonriders/




17) Three fires must you light:

One for life: birthing the dragons

One for death: killing Mirri Maz Duur/Drogo's funeral

One to love:




18) Three mounts must you ride: Unsure if this refers to lovers or actual animals. It could work either way, I think.

One to bed: Hizdahr? Victarion?, or her silver she rides to bed Drogo on her wedding night

One to dread: Drogo, or Drogon (the Black Dread reborn)

One to love: Jon Snow, or Ghost (maybe she'll ride it or something...)




19) Three treasons will you know:

Once for blood: Mirri Maz Duur

Once for gold:

Once for love: Jorah? Not sure if his would be for love or gold. He probably got paid, but he informed on Dany to get pardoned and return to Bear Island, not for extra cash.




20) Mother of dragons, daughter of death: refers to kin she's had who died

Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth: Flashback

A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him: Possibly an alternate future if Rhaego had lived, or maybe the actual future based on events in Winds of Winter.

Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name: Flashback of Rhaegar's death. I wonder of Robert heard him say Lyanna as he died.




21) Mother of dragons, slayer of lies: refers to lies/things that aren't as they seem

Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow: Stannis, who isn't really Azor Ahai

A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd: Aegon, who isn't really Aegon

From s smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing breathing shadow fire: Probably Jon Connington because of his greyscale and griffon symbol, but the cloth dragon prophecy right above this one would make that kind of redundant. But the "shadow fire" could refer to Aegon, who a lot of people think is a Blackfyre, so it seems to make sense.




22) Mother of dragons, bride of fire: refers to three husbands she'll have

Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars: Drogo

A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly: Victarion

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, a filled the air with sweetness: Jon Snow




23) Shadows whirled and danced inside a tent, boneless and terrible: Flashback




24) A little girl ran barefoot toward a big house with a red door: Possible flashback, but could also refer to Arya if she finds the house with the red door in Braavos.




25) Mirri Maz Duur shrieked in the flames, a dragon bursting from her brow: Flashback, possibly shows that MMD's death only resurrected the one dragon, not all three (the others came from Drogo and Rhaego).




26) Behind a silver horse the bloody corpse of a naked man bounced and dragged: This one is kind of interesting because Dany refers to the horse as just "a silver horse," not really recognizing it as her silver. Her horse appears in prophecies 22 and 29 as well, but both times specifically as "her silver." It's probably nothing, and this is probably just the wine merchant assassin from book 1, but it's worth noting.




27) A white lion ran through grass taller than a man: Possibly Drogo killing the white lion for Dany at Vaes Dothrak, but that doesn't really seem all that significant for the Undying to mention it. Maybe it's something else, possibly with the Lannisters? Tyrion's hair is almost white (like a Tragaryen's...), and Jaime wears white armor as a kingsguard.




28) Beneath the Mother of Mountains, a line of naked crones crept from a great lake and knelt shivering before her, their grey heads bowed: Hasn't happened yet, so probably from tWoW.




29) Ten thousand slaves lifted blood-stained hands as she raced by on her silver, riding like the wind. "Mother!" they cried. "Mother, mother!" All the "Mhysa" stuff from Yunkai.

rand
05-01-2016, 12:03 AM
I have stuff from aSoS I'll post later, but I just thought of something strange recently regarding Syrio Forel. The way his death scene is written is obviously supposed to make us question his demise. On top of this, Meryn Trant never mentions killing Syrio, and later the Hound jokes about how terrible a swordsman Trant is. Lots of people think Syrio=Jaqen, which seems doubtful...but what if Syrio still is a Faceless Man, just not Jaqen? It seems odd that the First Sword of Braavos, who serves for life, would just be hanging out at KL with enough spare time to train Arya.

Anyway, my "theory" is that Syrio Forel, as a Faceless Man charged with doing something in KL, killed Meryn Trant, stole his face, and has since assumed his role at court.

Granted this is a pretty big long shot, but it would explain the weird circumstances surrounding Syrio's "death" without needing him to somehow be Jaqen. I tried Googling to see if anyone else had thought of this, but all I found was a Reddit page on the possibility (though I didn't look too hard). FWIW this is obviously still very doubtful--presumably Syrio couldn't just pretend to be the First Sword of Braavos without someone realizing it wasn't true.

Rand al'Fain
05-01-2016, 01:16 AM
I have stuff from aSoS I'll post later, but I just thought of something strange recently regarding Syrio Forel. The way his death scene is written is obviously supposed to make us question his demise. On top of this, Meryn Trant never mentions killing Syrio, and later the Hound jokes about how terrible a swordsman Trant is. Lots of people think Syrio=Jaqen, which seems doubtful...but what if Syrio still is a Faceless Man, just not Jaqen? It seems odd that the First Sword of Braavos, who serves for life, would just be hanging out at KL with enough spare time to train Arya.

Anyway, my "theory" is that Syrio Forel, as a Faceless Man charged with doing something in KL, killed Meryn Trant, stole his face, and has since assumed his role at court.

Granted this is a pretty big long shot, but it would explain the weird circumstances surrounding Syrio's "death" without needing him to somehow be Jaqen. I tried Googling to see if anyone else had thought of this, but all I found was a Reddit page on the possibility (though I didn't look too hard). FWIW this is obviously still very doubtful--presumably Syrio couldn't just pretend to be the First Sword of Braavos without someone realizing it wasn't true.

Bah! Syrio is obviously Narg, after crossing dimensions and learning how to channel!

In all honesty, sounds about as good as anything else. Though I wonder if Martin even remembers the guy at this point. There are so many side characters, you need to list them by Kingdom just to keep them somewhat in order.

Davian93
05-01-2016, 07:00 PM
Maybe he can bring Syrio back as another Targaryen pretender and he can waste 500 pages on him in the next book in a pointless subplot that goes nowhere.

rand
05-07-2016, 11:39 PM
Why is Tyrek Lannister ("Wetnurse") allowed to marry Ermesande Hayford when she's only an infant? It seems like in other marriages (i.e. Sansa and Joffery) they have to wait till they're of age first, since the consummation is basically what makes it official.

"The Bear and the Maiden Fair" seems to refer to three pairs of characters: Sansa and Sandor, Jaime and Brienne, and Dany and Jorah. Personally I think the lyrics refer to Sansa and the Hound the most, even though he doesn't really have bear symbology: "maid with honey in her hair", "I'm a maid, and I'm pure and fair. I'll never dance with a hairy bear.", "I called for a knight, but you're a bear..."

There's a lot of interesting stuff about Mance in the books. Most of it gets cut in the show, but I'm interested to see where his character ends up in the books. Not sure if anyone else realized this, but I think this is the first time I noticed "Mance Rayder" is a play on "Manse Raider," a reference to his connection to Bael the Bard and his trips to Winterfell.

Mance's story about how he got the red patches on his cloak is strange. Why would a ship from Asshai (where the red silk was from) have been anywhere near the frozen shore? The tale of the wise woman who healed Mance is weird too--or rather it was the wise woman's daughter. And it was that daughter's grandmother who found the silk on the wrecked ship from Asshai. This matriarchal, multigenerational family of wise women brings to mind Maggy the Frog and her family (Sybell Spicer and Jeyne Westerling).

At one point Mance tells Jon "there's more commerce between the black brothers and the free folk than you know," in reference to how he had known King Robert was traveling to Winterfell. When, exactly, do the Nights Watch trade news with the Wildlings? It's literally their job to hunt them down, and 99% of the Watch hate the Wildlings. I guess some of the less biased Rangers, like maybe Qhorin or Benjen, might sit down and chat with the Wildlings occassionally, but even that seems like a stretch. I guess it could all go through Craster, but his hovel doesn't exactly seem like a bustling hub of trade between the Wildlings and the Wall.

In regards to the fact that Maggy the Frog is Jeyne Westerling's great grandmother (or something like that), it's sort of implied that Jeyne, or more likely her mother Sybell, gave Robb a love potion to force him to fall in love with Jeyne. Their heritage is well known, as the small council even discusses it. So if Tywin knew Robb was headed for the Crag, he could have had the whole thing (including the Red Wedding) all planned out before Robb even met Jeyne.

Is there any significance to the fact that Thoros of Myr was the first through the breach at the battle of Pyke? It's mentioned several times in the books, and surprisingly even several times on the show.

There's a theory that Lem Lemoncloak is Rhaegar's squire Richard Lonmouth (the "knight of skulls and kisses" from Meera's tale of the Tourney at Harrenhal). It seems bizarre at first, but there's a surprising amount of evidence for it. At one point someone jokes that if Lem ever washed his cloak they'd all find out he was a knight of the kingsguard--hinting that he's more than he seems, at least. When Arya goes with the Brotherhood to High Heart, the Ghost says this in response to Lem saying he dreamed of a tavern wench: "The wench is dead. Only worms may kiss her now." This references House Lonmouth's arms of skulls and kisses. And later in Feast when the Brotherhood hangs Brienne, Lem is present when she's given the choice of "sword or noose" (kiss or skull). He might even poise that question, I don't remember. And according to GRRM, the Lonmouth words are "The Choice is Yours."

Terez
06-07-2016, 02:45 AM
I am rereading so I am hijacking your thread. Just came across this nice bit in AGOT:

“My lady, that is a monstrous suggestion,” said Rodrik Cassel. “Even the Kingslayer would flinch at the murder of an innocent child.”

“Oh, would he?” Theon Greyjoy asked. “I wonder.”

Terez
06-07-2016, 03:30 AM
Another interesting bit, from Bran's first vision, right before he wakes up:

He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.
I'm guessing the shadow with stone armor is the Mountain. He wasn't with the king's party, but it's easy to see how he is a shadow looming over his brother. I just find it interesting that he's also looming over Jaime. Is it Cersei's trial, or something else?

rand
06-07-2016, 02:07 PM
It's probably Jaime, but the "armored like the sun" part makes it possible to be Oberyn too. Either way, it seems like a weird thing for Bran to see at that moment. Maybe GRRM changed his mind about something.

Terez
06-07-2016, 02:49 PM
I dunno if he necessarily did. I doubt it's Oberyn; Bran is seeing the people who are traveling south with his father. Sandor and Jaime are with them; the Mountain only shows up because he's a shadow looming over Sandor and Jaime. Or maybe it's a metaphor for killing in general.

Terez
06-08-2016, 02:56 AM
I think I have posted this here before, on another thread, but I just got to this bit in my reread so I'll post it again. IMO it's the strongest evidence that Lyanna went with Rhaegar of her own free will.

"Ah, Arya, You have a wildness in you, child. 'The wolf blood,' my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave." Arya heard sadness in his voice; he did not often speak of his father, or of the brother and sister who had died before she was born. "Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her."

"Lyanna was beautiful," Arya said, startled. Everybody said so. It was not a thing that was ever said of Arya.

"She was," Eddard Stark agreed, "beautiful, and willful, and dead before her time."

Davian93
06-08-2016, 08:37 AM
I concur there...its pretty abundantly clear through several hints and basically confirmed on this one that she ran away for love.

Rand al'Fain
06-10-2016, 10:36 AM
I concur there...its pretty abundantly clear through several hints and basically confirmed on this one that she ran away for love.

Bah! How could anyone NOT love the boisterous, obscene, blunt-headed, heir to house Baratheon, Robert over some coward that may or may not have actually cared for people, talented, and had a conscience?

Though, it was never said how Rhaegar felt about Elia and his children with her, I think. One does wonder how Rhaegar would have been as King.

Terez
06-10-2016, 01:55 PM
It was kind of implied that Elia probably would have been okay with the Lyanna thing. She was Dornish; they're all very polysexual.

Kimon
06-10-2016, 03:51 PM
It was kind of implied that Elia probably would have been okay with the Lyanna thing. She was Dornish; they're all very polysexual.

Not being bothered by your husband taking a mistress is one thing, not being bothered by your husband potentially replacing you with a younger, prettier, arguably even more noble-born wife is another. If nothing else, Elia would have had to see both Lyanna and her pregnancy as a threat to her own political position, and even more importantly, as a potential dynastic threat to her own children. It could easily have been seen by Dorne as similar to what the Tyrells tried to do by bringing Margaery to Kings Landing and parading her in front of Robert Baratheon. This doubtless is a key factor in why Cersei is so hostile to Margaery in the books, albeit an element that the show hasn't bothered with. It's not just that Margaery should be younger and prettier (she actually isn't either in the show, but that's the fault of the casting department), but also that she had been intended always as a pawn to replace her.

I've always wondered what exactly Arthur Dayne was up to. Why was he really at the Tower of Joy? Why did he attack Ned? Sure he was technically in the Kingsguard, but was he really there serving Targaryen interests, or Dornish. What point was there in trying to keep Ned from reaching Lyanna, unless his orders/intentions were to kill Lyanna and the child? Ned certainly wasn't a threat to his sister or his sister's child. Was Arthur really there to protect her?

Terez
06-10-2016, 04:10 PM
Tinfoil alert!

I don't think there's any reason to believe Rhaegar intended Lyanna's children to replace Elia's children in the succession. He just believed (because of the prophecies) that he needed to have at least 3 children so that the dragon could have 3 heads. That would presumably include Elia's children.

Polygamy is not unprecedented in the line of Targaryen kings, though it's considered a sin in the Faith of the Seven.

Kimon
06-10-2016, 04:29 PM
Tinfoil alert!


Does it really make sense that Elia would not be bothered? Does it really make sense that Arthur Dayne attacked Ned?

Terez
06-10-2016, 04:50 PM
Does it really make sense that Elia would not be bothered? Does it really make sense that Arthur Dayne attacked Ned?
IMO, yes on both counts. Dayne's orders were to protect Lyanna and her child from anyone and everyone, and since Ned was on Robert's side, there was reason enough to include him in that.

Rand al'Fain
06-11-2016, 01:48 AM
IMO, yes on both counts. Dayne's orders were to protect Lyanna and her child from anyone and everyone, and since Ned was on Robert's side, there was reason enough to include him in that.

Though with Ned, he'd be one of the few that Lyanna and her son would have been safe with. Because we've seen Ned's soft spot for children, even one as horrible as "the little shit". One that is of blood relation? Oh yeah. He would've protected both without a second thought.

Terez
06-11-2016, 03:15 AM
Though with Ned, he'd be one of the few that Lyanna and her son would have been safe with. Because we've seen Ned's soft spot for children, even one as horrible as "the little shit". One that is of blood relation? Oh yeah. He would've protected both without a second thought.
Yes, I think that's obvious to the readers, since he went to great lengths to protect Jon. But Dayne had his orders.

PS for Kimon: IIRC, in the books, Gerold Hightower, the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, was also there. So Dayne had his boss on site, and whatever Dornish sympathies he might have had regarding Elia would have been moot.