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Isabel
06-09-2015, 11:13 AM
Hi all,
I was curious what you all think about the drama about the Sad puppies and the hugo awards and the latest apology by Tor.
At least if you heard about it ;) My twitter feed (from authors) is full of it.

Personally I think the apology by Tor was not that smart. Now both groups are upset with Tor :D

Anyway for some history:
http://www.jimchines.com/2015/06/puppies-in-their-own-words/

The latest blog post by Tor.
http://www.tor.com/2015/06/08/a-message-from-tom-doherty-to-our-readers-and-authors/

Terez
06-09-2015, 01:44 PM
Did they also apologize for the Nielsen-Harrises? Not that I think they should, but they have been posting a lot too, and everyone knows they are with Tor.

Daekyras
06-09-2015, 02:21 PM
That first page is huge! I got halfway through it and got confused.

so general gist- a guy set up a websit/group called sad puppies to try and get a wider range of fantasy and science fiction novels nominated at awards time.

Then some other people accused them of being racist/sexist.

Then some other people defended them.

Now tor is apologising because one of their staff wrote on her personal Facebook a comment about it.

Am i right? Because if I am this seems like a huge fuss over very little. Also we all no that the hugo's are invalid after last year 😆

Isabel
06-09-2015, 11:17 PM
You are basicly right. Only the puppies seem to want work in the hugo's with less inclusion theme's ( gay, bi, etc)

Daekyras
06-10-2015, 05:53 AM
You are basicly right. Only the puppies seem to want work in the hugo's with less inclusion theme's ( gay, bi, etc)

Aha! So that's the controversy.

I have to say I have little patience for that kind of argument. The only criteria for inclusion should be quality.

If the books with Gay or Bi themes are good quality they have every right to be included.

p.S are you attending worldcon last year? I wanted to go last year as London is little more than an hour from where I am sitting right now but couldn't get away(Babies!!!).
I doubt I will make it this year(Washington??) but it is on my List of things to do.

Southpaw2012
06-12-2015, 01:16 PM
Aha! So that's the controversy.

I have to say I have little patience for that kind of argument. The only criteria for inclusion should be quality.

If the books with Gay or Bi themes are good quality they have every right to be included.

p.S are you attending worldcon last year? I wanted to go last year as London is little more than an hour from where I am sitting right now but couldn't get away(Babies!!!).
I doubt I will make it this year(Washington??) but it is on my List of things to do.


Agreed.

Mort
08-24-2015, 12:09 PM
Bumping this because I was about to post a new thread on it but found this.

Wired wrote up a pretty good article on the whole debacle, I thought.

http://www.wired.com/2015/08/won-science-fictions-hugo-awards-matters/

I believe story should be the major ingredient. But novel ideas should also be included in the decision making. So when someone writes a book (with a good story) about a woman who can't see gender, especially when the gender debate is at it's hottest right now it seems, maybe it deserves some cred? I don't of course know for sure, I havn't read it, or any of the other authors being written about.

If people want cool stories about men fighting dragons, going to space and fighting aliens, there are a few out there to be read, and maybe another award just for them?

And if the Hugo award would become something of a mainstream award, that's fine I guess, just don't discriminate.

Ozymandias
08-24-2015, 12:51 PM
I thought the big issue involved here is that the Sad Puppies guy was alleging some generic vast tin-hat conspiracy by liberals to pack the Hugo ballots with non-heteronormative fiction, and that his decision to try and pack the ballot in the opposite direction (which is actually happening, instead of the stupid prior conspiracy theory being alleged) is turnabout and thus (in contradiction to Cadsuane's beliefs) fair play.

Daekyras
08-24-2015, 08:02 PM
But novel ideas should also be included in the decision making. So when someone writes a book (with a good story) about a woman who can't see gender, especially when the gender debate is at it's hottest right now it seems, maybe it deserves some cred? I don't of course know for sure, I havn't read it, or any of the other authors being written about.


I really disagree with this. When it comes to an award for work the only deciding factor should be quality.
If a book has a very Topical story or involves themes that are new and fresh but is poorly written they shouldn't get recognition in the awards just for that. That's for journalists and review websites to do.

However, if someone writes a compelling and entertaining story that features these new themes they should definitely be included in award consideration. And these guys that are trying to stop them being included are very far off base.
In fact, it seems very backwards. And most likely counter productive.

One last thing- what is "heteronormative"???

Sodas
08-24-2015, 08:10 PM
Hi all,
I was curious what you all think about the drama about the Sad puppies and the hugo awards and the latest apology by Tor.
At least if you heard about it ;) My twitter feed (from authors) is full of it.

Personally I think the apology by Tor was not that smart. Now both groups are upset with Tor :D

Anyway for some history:
http://www.jimchines.com/2015/06/puppies-in-their-own-words/

The latest blog post by Tor.
http://www.tor.com/2015/06/08/a-message-from-tom-doherty-to-our-readers-and-authors/

Wasn't it obvious that the Hugo were a joke when Brandon Sanderson won in 2013? It's all about politics, not literature. Even GRRM admitted that.

Thank you for bringing this up Isa, it's all over social media this week.

Davian93
08-24-2015, 08:27 PM
Sounds like a giant conspiracy...

Sodas
08-24-2015, 08:44 PM
Sounds like a giant conspiracy...

Funny, that's usually Hillary's line.

Sodas
08-25-2015, 01:53 AM
I really disagree with this. When it comes to an award for work the only deciding factor should be quality.
If a book has a very Topical story or involves themes that are new and fresh but is poorly written they shouldn't get recognition in the awards just for that. That's for journalists and review websites to do.

However, if someone writes a compelling and entertaining story that features these new themes they should definitely be included in award consideration. And these guys that are trying to stop them being included are very far off base.
In fact, it seems very backwards. And most likely counter productive.

One last thing- what is "heteronormative"???

It means "A viewpoint that expresses heterosexuality as a given instead of being one of many possibilities."

Meaning, accepting heterosexuality as normal. It's all the rage these days with the "Social Justice" crowd.

Daekyras
08-25-2015, 03:19 AM
It means "A viewpoint that expresses heterosexuality as a given instead of being one of many possibilities."

Meaning, accepting heterosexuality as normal. It's all the rage these days with the "Social Justice" crowd.

But being heterosexual IS normal. As is almost any other kind of -sexual.

I draw the line at incest and animals. Sorry [insert region of your country here]. :)

Sodas
08-25-2015, 03:59 AM
But being heterosexual IS normal. As is almost any other kind of -sexual.

Yeah, well think of gender & sexual preferences on two separate sliding scales and you have an idea of what some of these folks are thinking.

Nazbaque
08-25-2015, 04:24 AM
But being heterosexual IS normal. As is almost any other kind of -sexual.

I draw the line at incest and animals. Sorry [insert region of your country here]. :)

Depends on the definition of incest. There is the genetic physical definition, the familial bond mental definition and the connection by law definition. Suppose a man and woman whose spouse's died some time ago getting married. Both had children from their first marriages. These children have no blood connection and they haven't formed a bond as siblings. Some people would consider it incest, if these "siblings" had sex.

Personally I only consider it incest if there is a blood connection and it has to be close to be immoral. 5th degree cousins is fine in this sense. Going after your adopted sibling can be all kinds of wrong, but it's not incest in my view. Other people can disagree and they even have decent arguments, but I still hold that while it can be wrong it's not incest without the blood connection.

Mort
08-25-2015, 05:57 AM
I really disagree with this. When it comes to an award for work the only deciding factor should be quality.
If a book has a very Topical story or involves themes that are new and fresh but is poorly written they shouldn't get recognition in the awards just for that. That's for journalists and review websites to do.

However, if someone writes a compelling and entertaining story that features these new themes they should definitely be included in award consideration. And these guys that are trying to stop them being included are very far off base.
In fact, it seems very backwards. And most likely counter productive.

One last thing- what is "heteronormative"???

SciFi prides itself that it isn't just about cool lasers and space wars. It's can also be a story that also tells another story, usually about our own world.

Take Brave New World for example. How much of it's cred did it get for being a good story with interesting characters and how much did it get for being a tale about government running amok with citizens more willing to have a little more safety than freedom? The two can't really be separated, because they are both the story, but the second part told something more than just a story you could escape to. And I believe that is what made it great, not just good. And that is why 80+ years later, people still talk about it of what could happen if we aren't vigilant.

Not saying a book that doesn't have a good story, isn't well written etc but has a political or social message that is worth mentioning is worthy of a Hugo. Not at all. But sometimes that message is icing on the cake. Why not in this case? And considering it is social and political in this case, some might not agree.


Depends on the definition of incest. There is the genetic physical definition, the familial bond mental definition and the connection by law definition. Suppose a man and woman whose spouse's died some time ago getting married. Both had children from their first marriages. These children have no blood connection and they haven't formed a bond as siblings. Some people would consider it incest, if these "siblings" had sex.

Personally I only consider it incest if there is a blood connection and it has to be close to be immoral. 5th degree cousins is fine in this sense. Going after your adopted sibling can be all kinds of wrong, but it's not incest in my view. Other people can disagree and they even have decent arguments, but I still hold that while it can be wrong it's not incest without the blood connection.

Sounds like you are trying to defuse you having had sex with your 5th cousin ;)

Here, second cousins can marry, I guess the genetics doesn't care at that point. Whether or not it's immoral or not I leave up to the families of the ones getting married. ;)

But let's not derail this into a genetics/incest debate.

Terez
08-25-2015, 10:18 AM
I am glad the puppies lost, but I am not a Hugo voter. I don't read enough to vote, and the idea of reading all the available material in order to be able to vote doesn't appeal to me.

Heteronormativity is the tendency to go through life (or write stories) as though non-hetero people just don't exist. Everyone is assumed to be hetero until proven otherwise, and the bar for proof is often ridiculously high, as is evidence by my current line of study (Chopin).

Mort
08-25-2015, 12:05 PM
I am glad the puppies lost, but I am not a Hugo voter. I don't read enough to vote, and the idea of reading all the available material in order to be able to vote doesn't appeal to me.


I'm sure a lot of people havn't read it all and still votes. I guess you have higher standards about the Hugos than most :P

Terez
08-25-2015, 12:11 PM
Admonitions against voting without reading are pretty common in the WorldCon community, even (perhaps especially) from authors who have been nominated. I'm sure some people vote without reading all the material, and this year would have been a prime year to do so since no one wanted to read the puppy crap, but I think there are a lot of people like me who abstain.

Daekyras
08-25-2015, 12:18 PM
I am glad the puppies lost, but I am not a Hugo voter. I don't read enough to vote, and the idea of reading all the available material in order to be able to vote doesn't appeal to me.

Heteronormativity is the tendency to go through life (or write stories) as though non-hetero people just don't exist. Everyone is assumed to be hetero until proven otherwise, and the bar for proof is often ridiculously high, as is evidence by my current line of study (Chopin).
Well that's very different. So heteronormative see hetero - sexual as right and everything else as not? Ass hats.

Davian93
08-25-2015, 01:00 PM
Funny, that's usually Hillary's line.

The funny thing is that I probably like her less than you...

Davian93
08-25-2015, 01:13 PM
Sounds like you are trying to defuse you having had sex with your 5th cousin

I would imagine that lots of people likely have sex and marry 5th cousins quite often...especially if they come from more rural communities where there isn't a lot of movement from generation to generation. Given how remotely related a 5th cousin actually is.

https://deepfriedhoodsiecups.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/chart-20.jpg

GonzoTheGreat
08-26-2015, 03:52 AM
Well that's very different. So heteronormative see hetero - sexual as right and everything else as not? Ass hats.
Well, if I understand it correctly, then it's not so much a matter of seeing it as right, but of not seeing any other possibility at all.
So, for instance, LotR would count as heteronormative, but The Hobbit wouldn't, since the latter totally avoids the issue while the former mentions some male-female pairings. Mind you, some Elven purists may argue that Arwen's crush on Aragorn falls under the bestiality heading, so not even this example is entirely clear.