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sleepinghour
06-19-2015, 07:37 AM
In case anyone missed it, Tor.com has announced that they will be posting excerpts from the WoT Companion encyclopedia. Team Jordan will decide (based on random drawings) which entries to post based on reader comments to this post (http://www.tor.com/2015/06/16/spin-the-wheel-1-the-wheel-of-time-companion/), which closes today.

Hopefully we'll get some interesting tidbits out of whatever gets posted. Unfortunately, some of the sillier reader suggestions like "The early life of Bela" or "Narg's character file" have as good chance to be randomly selected. Team Jordan also reserves the right to RAFO the selected entry and choose another comment.

Davian93
06-19-2015, 11:29 AM
Any knowledgeable WoT Fan Freak would understand that the entire series is really about Bela. Bela, if one really understands the actual prophecies, was the true Dragon Reborn. All Rand did was hang out while she did all the hard work of fighting the DO and resealing his prison.

GonzoTheGreat
06-19-2015, 11:44 AM
It is somewhat suspicious that Bela isn't mentioned after Olver blows the Horn.

sleepinghour
06-19-2015, 11:44 AM
Oh, come on, Bela jokes are so '90s Usenet. Let's not flog a dead horse that has long stopped being funny. Besides, everyone knows the true hero of the series was Valan Luca.

GonzoTheGreat
06-19-2015, 12:13 PM
Could Valan Luca be Narg reborn, or would the timing be wrong for that?

Terez
06-19-2015, 12:21 PM
Oh, come on, Bela jokes are so '90s Usenet.
Someone tell Harriet.

Southpaw2012
06-19-2015, 02:08 PM
Team Jordan is posting stuff on their Google+ page that will NOT be in the companion, beginning with words and phrases of the Aiel.

sleepinghour
06-19-2015, 03:52 PM
Team Jordan is posting stuff on their Google+ page that will NOT be in the companion, beginning with words and phrases of the Aiel.

Thanks for the heads-up. :) I keep forgetting about that page, though they've posted nice tidbits there before like RJ's WoT actor list last year. I'll try to keep an eye on future posts since they're apparently planning to post more tidbits that didn't make it into the encyclopedia. The post in question is here (http://plus.google.com/103674399065634804648/posts/GijjaR7zML2), if anyone is interested in learning more about Aiel sayings.

"Some time again maybe, some day." Aiel way of saying never again when they don't want to say it right out.

"They/he hear(s) only the wind." They don't listen; don't see/hear what is important; a fool.

“to give a Maiden an interest gift.” To do something reckless.

twitchskirt; flipskirt (Aiel): a flirt and a tease, maybe even an actual roundheels.

Here's a good trivia question for HCFFs: who, if anyone, was called a twitch/flipskirt in the books? :D

Kimon
06-19-2015, 05:00 PM
Here's a good trivia question for HCFFs: who, if anyone, was called a twitch/flipskirt in the books? :D

Isendre & Berelain? Both by Aviendha, I think.

Zombie Sammael
06-19-2015, 06:18 PM
Oh, come on, Bela jokes are so '90s Usenet. Let's not flog a dead horse that has long stopped being funny. Besides, everyone knows the true hero of the series was Valan Luca.

Valan Luca was the worst thing in the entire series, so I suppose that makes him the actual Dark One.

Lupusdeusest
06-21-2015, 12:35 AM
Valan Luca was the worst thing in the entire series, so I suppose that makes him the actual Dark One.

Methinks our dear Sammael is simply jealous his own well-turned calves failed to receive a mention...

sleepinghour
06-24-2015, 04:27 PM
Tor has now posted the first winning entry, Strength in the One Power (http://www.tor.com/2015/06/24/wot-companion-spin-the-wheel-1-excerpt/), which is an interesting read but repeats much of what we've already been told by Terez. No character rankings are included, so overexcited RAFO-ers don't need to bring out their smelling salts just yet. :)

I think the most interesting new tidbit is how OP strength affects channelers' life expectancy, which tells us roughly how old some characters will become provided they don't use the Oath Rod or die of other causes. By the sound of it, Morgase who is at the bottom levels might reach 150-200 years? Which is a respectable age, but at the same time, not all that much considering where the upper levels are at.

Strength level 56(44) was the 300-year age level, 67(55) the 200-year age level, and the bottom level, 72(60), approximately the 150-year level for women.

This part was also interesting, and I'm guessing based on the fact that women tend to live longer than men in real life:

A given strength level did not produce the same degree of longevity for a man as for a woman. At any given level of equality, a woman would live longer.

sleepinghour
06-24-2015, 08:01 PM
Before the appearance of Elayne, Egwene, Nynaeve, Aviendha and Nicola, there were 60 base levels of strength, each of which had internal gradations, for women who were strong enough to be raised to the shawl. After their appearance, there were 72 base levels.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but this entry makes it sound like it was the Tower who revised their scale because of the Super Girls, while in reality (if I remember Terez' and Dom's posts about this correctly, and I'm not sure if I do) it was actually RJ who decided to expand his at some point. If this is the case, that's a small but interesting difference; however, it's not too surprising if there had to be a slight retcon to include both scales in the entry without acknowledging the author's existence.

Terez
06-24-2015, 08:08 PM
Also not sure where the 72 base levels for women comes from. From what we saw, it was 66 for women plus 6 for men. Perhaps Morgase was lower than Moiraine's level 66.

fionwe1987
06-24-2015, 11:33 PM
Also not sure where the 72 base levels for women comes from. From what we saw, it was 66 for women plus 6 for men. Perhaps Morgase was lower than Moiraine's level 66.

The entry makes it clear that Morghase wouldn't be on this list at all, nor would any woman too weak to attain the shawl, which then excludes Moiraine. I find that mystifying,

Before the appearance of Elayne, Egwene, Nynaeve, Aviendha and Nicola, there were 60 base levels of strength, each of which had internal gradations, for women who were strong enough to be raised to the shawl. After their appearance, there were 72 base levels.

Terez
06-25-2015, 12:51 AM
In the notes, Daighan is level 45/33. She is the lowest level to be able to test for the shawl.

Hugh the Hand
06-25-2015, 09:38 AM
Ok maybe I am confused. Is level 1 the most powerful?

If so, someone seemed to say Moiraine would be level 66? Are we talking about her after the 'Finns got to her? Because in New Spring she was considered one of the strongest.

So can someone help my confusion?

Terez
06-25-2015, 09:58 AM
Ok maybe I am confused. Is level 1 the most powerful?
Sort of. There are two scales for women. Lanfear is 1 on the larger scale and +12 on the Aes Sedai scale. Elaida is 1 on the Aes Sedai scale and 13 on the larger scale. In the notes, men are ++ if they're stronger than Lanfear, and from what we saw, the numbers were reversed. Like, Ishamael's strength was given as ++1. He was the strongest of the male Forsaken, equal to Rand. Going by memory here, but that's what I remember. I can look it up later.

If so, someone seemed to say Moiraine would be level 66? Are we talking about her after the 'Finns got to her? Because in New Spring she was considered one of the strongest.
Yes, she went from 1/13 to 54/66, according to the notes we read.

sleepinghour
06-25-2015, 10:45 AM
Also not sure where the 72 base levels for women comes from. From what we saw, it was 66 for women plus 6 for men. Perhaps Morgase was lower than Moiraine's level 66.

I just went back and reread your post (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=8348) for comparison. This makes me worry a little that Team Jordan either misunderstood some things in the notes or maybe simplified them to make everything more accessible to a wider audience. Or maybe their list is simply more recent and wasn't included in the library files. I hope that, once the encyclopedia is out, you will be able to talk more freely about what you saw in the notes; if Team Jordan did change some details for whatever reason, it would be really interesting to know how the information in the encyclopedia differs from what's in the notes.

GonzoTheGreat
06-25-2015, 10:49 AM
Of course, in New Spring Cadsuane was a lot stronger than Moiraine ever would be, so she would have been something like -1/11. Then again, by the time that New Spring came out, it was already clear that the Supergirls were going to outstrip (almost) any living AS, so maybe Cadsuane isn't really typical.

Terez
06-25-2015, 10:57 AM
I just went back and reread your post (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=8348) for comparison. This makes me worry a little that Team Jordan either misunderstood some things in the notes or maybe simplified them to make everything more accessible to a wider audience.
My impression from Maria on this is that they decided not to change the double-rankings RJ used in his notes because they didn't want to screw anything up. The in-world explanation doesn't bother me, but the weirdness with the numbers is worrisome, because the system is consistent across all RJ's files, up to and including the ones he was using when he wrote KOD. We found a few inconsistencies, most of which were explained by RJ having some reason to change a channeler's strength, but no structural inconsistencies, and nothing that would explain this.

sleepinghour
06-25-2015, 12:37 PM
Of course, in New Spring Cadsuane was a lot stronger than Moiraine ever would be, so she would have been something like -1/11.

There was also Meilyn and Kerene in NS, who were above Moiraine's potential but below Cadsuane.

My impression from Maria on this is that they decided not to change the double-rankings RJ used in his notes because they didn't want to screw anything up. The in-world explanation doesn't bother me, but the weirdness with the numbers is worrisome, because the system is consistent across all RJ's files, up to and including the ones he was using when he wrote KOD.

Thanks for checking with Maria. You mentioned in the old post that "nowhere in the notes does RJ give a lower strength than 66/54; even Sorilea is higher." So it seems strange for there to be additional levels below that, except possibly one for Morgase. I guess we'll just have to wait and see what else the encyclopedia has to say about it. I'm glad they didn't change/exclude the double-rankings, at least.

fionwe1987
06-25-2015, 12:41 PM
In the notes, Daighan is level 45/33. She is the lowest level to be able to test for the shawl.

Weird, because based on this entry, she would be 66/72. I too hope they're using some unseen info, and not merely confused with this.

fionwe1987
06-25-2015, 12:45 PM
There was also Meilyn and Kerene in NS, who were above Moiraine's potential but below Cadsuane.
Yup, based on this entry, they would be in the new 12 levels that were added after the supergirls. We do know that Meilyn was not too much stronger than Elaida, from New Spring, so this adds to the idea that the "Elaida" level isn't all that much weaker than the top level. Used to be, people regularly placed that level at about 25, maximum 30, percent of top strength. That is obviously very wrong.

Terez
06-25-2015, 12:59 PM
Thanks for checking with Maria.
For the record, this is my recollection of a conversation from a while back.

GonzoTheGreat
06-25-2015, 01:10 PM
It may be that the assumption that it is a "scale for AS" is wrong. If it is a scale for channelers, then it would make more sense, since then the weakest 20 levels simply would not be eligible to become AS.

fionwe1987
06-25-2015, 01:28 PM
It may be that the assumption that it is a "scale for AS" is wrong. If it is a scale for channelers, then it would make more sense, since then the weakest 20 levels simply would not be eligible to become AS.

Yeah they need to correct this:

The earlier distribution of Aes Sedai strengths thus ran from 1 to 60, which became 13 to 72.
Based on what Terez said, levels 34 to 60 in the original scale were too weak to be Aes sedai, which makes sense. This means Daigian would be level 45 in the entire list.

Now, RJ said 62.5% of all women are strong enough to be Aes Sedai. And 62.5% of 72 is... 45. This fits too neatly to not be true. Is there anyway we can bring this up to Maria and co. so they can check to see if what they wrote was mistaken?

sleepinghour
06-25-2015, 01:38 PM
Yup, based on this entry, they would be in the new 12 levels that were added after the supergirls. We do know that Meilyn was not too much stronger than Elaida, from New Spring, so this adds to the idea that the "Elaida" level isn't all that much weaker than the top level. Used to be, people regularly placed that level at about 25, maximum 30, percent of top strength. That is obviously very wrong.

From Terez' old post, Lanfear was 1/+12, Elaida is 13/1. So maybe Meilyn was 12/+1. Cadsuane I would guesstimate as being a few levels higher to set her apart, perhaps 9/+4.

(I had to make a color-coded Excel spreadsheet to make sense of all this. The whole double-ranking thing becomes much easier to follow if you do. Not that I can really follow all this, but it makes a little more sense to me than before, at least.)

sleepinghour
06-25-2015, 02:51 PM
In the notes, men are ++ if they're stronger than Lanfear, and from what we saw, the numbers were reversed. Like, Ishamael's strength was given as ++1. He was the strongest of the male Forsaken, equal to Rand. Going by memory here, but that's what I remember. I can look it up later.


If you have time, please do. This is all very interesting, yet confusing to my Excel spreadsheet. :) Is it something like this (with the order, I mean, not the actual character rankings)? How many ++ levels exist?

++1 - Rand, Ishamael/Moridin
++2 - Aginor
++3 - Balthamel, Logain, Galad's potential
1 - Rahvin (equal to Lanfear in raw strength)
2-65 - lots of random male channelers
66 - Mandarb (too weak to channel, but will live long and age well for a horse)

Daekyras
06-25-2015, 05:31 PM
If you have time, please do. This is all very interesting, yet confusing to my Excel spreadsheet. :) Is it something like this (with the order, I mean, not the actual character rankings)? How many ++ levels exist?

++1 - Rand, Ishamael/Moridin
++2 - Aginor
++3 - Balthamel, Logain, Galad's potential
1 - Rahvin (equal to Lanfear in raw strength)
2-65 - lots of random male channelers
66 - Mandarb (too weak to channel, but will live long and age well for a horse)

Hey sleeping hour,

Is the bold part a little bit of a joke or were we given a value for Galad's potential channeling power?

If this is old news and I'm sure it was discussed to death during my dark years but was it ever confirmed he was a channeler? ??

Rand al'Fain
06-25-2015, 05:46 PM
Hey sleeping hour,

Is the bold part a little bit of a joke or were we given a value for Galad's potential channeling power?

If this is old news and I'm sure it was discussed to death during my dark years but was it ever confirmed he was a channeler? ??

Not sure if it was ever out right said, but from some POVs we got from him, it certainly seemed as if he had the potential. And it's not unheard of for siblings to be able to channel. Half-siblings, not sure.

sleepinghour
06-25-2015, 06:05 PM
Yeah they need to correct this

I think it's pretty unlikely for any alterations to be made this point. Even if they had wanted to, most book manuscripts are all but set in stone several months prior to release date.

Is the bold part a little bit of a joke or were we given a value for Galad's potential channeling power?

If this is old news and I'm sure it was discussed to death during my dark years but was it ever confirmed he was a channeler? ??

Nah, I just liked the idea of putting him on that list, since Galad being a channeler was a fairly popular theory and all. :) I have my suspicions about Mandarb, though. As a poignant thematic parallel to TEotW, where a desperate Rand gave strength to Egwene's weary horse, Mandarb's latent channeling abilities only emerged when Lan was mortally injured by Demandred. People who don't read the book as carefully might end up with the mistaken impression that Lan survived thanks to the Warder bond or because Rand changed the Pattern—pshaw, I say. It should be intuitively obvious to all true HCFFs that it was Mandarb who Healed him, then modestly allowed that upstart sheepherder to take all the credit.

Daekyras
06-25-2015, 06:39 PM
I think it's pretty unlikely for any alterations to be made this point. Even if they had wanted to, most book manuscripts are all but set in stone several months prior to release date.



Nah, I just liked the idea of putting him on that list, since Galad being a channeler was a fairly popular theory and all. :) I have my suspicions about Mandarb, though. As a poignant thematic parallel to TEotW, where a desperate Rand gave strength to Egwene's weary horse, Mandarb's latent channeling abilities only emerged when Lan was mortally injured by Demandred. People who don't read the book as carefully might end up with the mistaken impression that Lan survived thanks to the Warder bond or because Rand changed the Pattern—pshaw, I say. It should be intuitively obvious to all true HCFFs that it was Mandarb who Healed him, then modestly allowed that upstart sheepherder to take all the credit.

If you said that mandarb's saddle was a Cape I might actually believe you are Felix.....

sleepinghour
06-25-2015, 06:56 PM
Not sure if it was ever out right said, but from some POVs we got from him, it certainly seemed as if he had the potential. And it's not unheard of for siblings to be able to channel. Half-siblings, not sure.

Galad used the Void, but then so did many other swordsmen, like Lan. But he's also the half-brother of both Rand and Elayne, and Moiraine's nephew. Not to mention it would be nicely ironic for the Lord Captain Commander of the Whitecloaks to turn out to be a channeler. It would add conflict to his and Berelain's relationship; he'd stay young-looking while she would age and eventually lose her beauty... So I could see it being part of the Outriggers, but we will likely never know if that was ever on the table.

If you said that mandarb's saddle was a Cape I might actually believe you are Felix.....

It does vaguely resemble a cape on the Swedish cover of TEotW (http://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/b7/41/f4/b741f4569ae117206e13620307a73b69.jpg). And it's a heroic red, much like Valan Luca's cloak and Superman's cape. Coincidence? I think not. ;)

Terez
06-25-2015, 11:36 PM
Now, RJ said 62.5% of all women are strong enough to be Aes Sedai. And 62.5% of 72 is... 45. This fits too neatly to not be true. Is there anyway we can bring this up to Maria and co. so they can check to see if what they wrote was mistaken?
Maria told me the reason they didn't do an Encyclopedia panel at JordanCon this year is because it was too late to change anything.

If you have time, please do. This is all very interesting, yet confusing to my Excel spreadsheet. :) Is it something like this (with the order, I mean, not the actual character rankings)? How many ++ levels exist?
We don't know; that's the problem. the strengths for a few male Forsaken were given, but not all of the levels were covered. And since ++1 is the highest level, then we don't know how many levels there are between that and Lanfear.

sleepinghour
06-26-2015, 07:13 AM
We don't know; that's the problem. the strengths for a few male Forsaken were given, but not all of the levels were covered. And since ++1 is the highest level, then we don't know how many levels there are between that and Lanfear.

Do you remember what the lowest ++ level you saw was? You said in the old thread, "We know of at least 3 male levels above Lanfear from the Forsaken notes of KOD era, Aginor being the only dead one included." But that was over a year ago, so just wondering if any impressions might have changed since then.

Thank you for taking the time to answer questions, by the way. I hope I'm not pestering you too much. :)

Terez
06-26-2015, 09:15 AM
The lowest strength given in the files we read was Balthamel at ++3. The problem is, it was written at a time when Rahvin, Asmodean, and Sammael were already dead, so they're not included in the file. And no, you're not pestering me. Facebook is pestering me right now; it's nice to talk about WoT for a change. :) I probably shouldn't be come to think of it. But these inconsistencies were already out there in what we blabbed before.

Southpaw2012
07-01-2015, 11:13 AM
http://www.tor.com/2015/07/01/the-wheel-of-time-companion-serafelle-tanisloe/

#2

Terez
07-01-2015, 11:36 AM
Yay, the forgotten Serafelle! For those who don't remember, we once had a Theorylander named Sarafelle.

For the record, her given strength matches what we found in the notes. She was on our list. According to the notes, she was actually at Dumai's Wells, and she ended up with Covarla's group. This was never mentioned in the books, presumably because she didn't stand very high and thus Gawyn didn't have to deal with her much, though Covarla herself was only two levels higher.

sleepinghour
07-01-2015, 01:54 PM
http://www.tor.com/2015/07/01/the-wheel-of-time-companion-serafelle-tanisloe/

Thanks! Nice to learn more about Serafelle and also to see what a typical Aes Sedai entry might look like. There's surprisingly detailed information about her early life (considering she was a relatively minor character), but nothing about what happened to her during or after the Last Battle. But knowing more about her background fleshes out her character and will make her scenes a bit more interesting on rereads.

pretty in a plump fashion,

I'm a little disappointed it didn't say "pleasantly plump."

For the record, her given strength matches what we found in the notes. She was on our list. According to the notes, she was actually at Dumai's Wells, and she ended up with Covarla's group. This was never mentioned in the books, presumably because she didn't stand very high and thus Gawyn didn't have to deal with her much, though Covarla herself was only two levels higher.

Thanks for the additional info. :) Wish this sort of tidbits had also made it into the encyclopedia.

Terez
07-01-2015, 02:00 PM
Yeah, I'm guessing they just stuck to backstory, partly because Brandon contradicted some of the info in the notes—even RJ did that from time to time—and it would have been that much more difficult to keep everything straight if they'd included stuff like that.

fionwe1987
07-01-2015, 02:04 PM
"Two years passed before sisters discovered the truth, and by that time, she had to be allowed to continue."

So how did the Tower discover this? One wonders if there's a secret "Age verification brigade" in the Tower. I suppose the fact that she was nobility is what tripped her up.

Also, Siuan had her at Mat's healing, implying she trusted her. Yet, she stayed back for Elaida. Could the secret healing have been a turning point in her loyalties?

Terez
07-01-2015, 02:38 PM
I have a feeling a lot of women stayed in the Tower not out of any particular loyalty to Elaida or dislike of Siuan, but just because they found it distasteful to rebel against the Tower. Staying was the conservative thing to do.

Besides, Verin said of her: "Serafelle is not really interested in anything that someone hasn't already set down in a book, preferably as long ago as possible."

sleepinghour
07-01-2015, 02:43 PM
Yeah, I'm guessing they just stuck to backstory, partly because Brandon contradicted some of the info in the notes—even RJ did that from time to time—and it would have been that much more difficult to keep everything straight if they'd included stuff like that.

Yeah, I guess it would have been a lot of extra work to keep track of what got changed and what didn't, but it's still really disappointing that they're apparently leaving that stuff out. In particular, the possibility of any post-AMoL tidbits was what I was most looking forward to with the encyclopedia.

It would also have been fun with some juicy tidbits about the Aes Sedai's pillow friends and Warders, but maybe we'll see more of that from the Greens. :) Since Serafelle was a widow and had children before joining the Tower, maybe that also made her far more disinclined than the average Tower initiate to be interested in romantic relationships.

fdsaf3
07-01-2015, 03:19 PM
Did this stick out to anyone else?

She would have be- come Yellow except that she possessed a minimal Talent for Healing.

In other words, she would have been a Yellow except her distinct lack of ability in the one trait that uniquely identifies all Yellows. This statement seems a bit...clumsy to me.

fionwe1987
07-01-2015, 03:20 PM
Yeah, I guess it would have been a lot of extra work to keep track of what got changed and what didn't, but it's still really disappointing that they're apparently leaving that stuff out. In particular, the possibility of any post-AMoL tidbits was what I was most looking forward to with the encyclopedia.
Yeah, It is still possible we'll get some of this for more major characters.

It would also have been fun with some juicy tidbits about the Aes Sedai's pillow friends and Warders, but maybe we'll see more of that from the Greens. :) Since Serafelle was a widow and had children before joining the Tower, maybe that also made her far more disinclined than the average Tower initiate to be interested in romantic relationships.
Definitely looks like it. She wanted to be Yellow, which indicates she really was hung up over those deaths too. Alanna, Myrelle and Merise will be much more interesting, one hopes.

Terez
07-01-2015, 03:21 PM
The notes are full of "juicy" tidbits about pillow friends.

fionwe1987
07-01-2015, 03:22 PM
Did this stick out to anyone else?



In other words, she would have been a Yellow except her distinct lack of ability in the one trait that uniquely identifies all Yellows. This statement seems a bit...clumsy to me.

Not really. Seems clear she wanted to be Yellow because Healing was important to her, but was directed away because her abilities were minimal. Suana seems to think wanting to Heal is more important than the Talent, but Romanda thinks otherwise, so it seems pretty clear a bunch of Yellows want nothing to do with earnest but Talentless women.

fionwe1987
07-01-2015, 03:22 PM
The notes are full of "juicy" tidbits about pillow friends.
Will there be much headbanging due to these tidbits? :D

Terez
07-01-2015, 03:24 PM
I have a feeling many of them will be rephrased if they are included at all...

fionwe1987
07-01-2015, 03:34 PM
I have a feeling many of them will be rephrased if they are included at all...

Haha... I can imagine that RJ, in his private notes, was a lot less restrained. Will be entertaining to see how they change things.

sleepinghour
07-01-2015, 03:37 PM
In other words, she would have been a Yellow except her distinct lack of ability in the one trait that uniquely identifies all Yellows. This statement seems a bit...clumsy to me.

I think the previous part about her husband and children dying of illness explains why she might've wanted to become a Yellow, but didn't have the Talent for it.

Terez
07-01-2015, 04:37 PM
Haha... I can imagine that RJ, in his private notes, was a lot less restrained.
It isn't like he went into a bunch of graphic details, but his way of describing these things was rather less circumlocutory. He had a thing for noting who was "dominant" though these things rarely made it into the books. In the notes, he describes Galina as being "a top"; in New Spring, he says the same thing about Siuan but he was rather more subtle about it:

The second surprise, after their friendship, had been the realization that between them, the fisherman's daughter led and the noblewoman followed.
If one were unaware of how much this meant to him, one could easily miss the subtext.

sleepinghour
07-01-2015, 08:26 PM
If one were unaware of how much this meant to him, one could easily miss the subtext.

It was noticeable to me, but mostly because this is also really a huge thing in manga/anime/certain kinds of Japanese novels featuring a same-sex relationship. The author is usually careful to signal, with varying degrees of subtlety, which character is the top ("seme"). The taller and more sturdily built person is almost always the one to play that role, so Siuan and Moiraine would have fit into that mold. Had RJ known about yuri, it probably would have appealed to him. :)

By the way, in the event that someone might find it helpful, I have put up a simplified version of the Excel spreadsheet here (http://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1B7oUf522R7mTBX_9bYIVTIWm67xViDSIgU2oUsN8pyc/pubhtml?gid=0&single=true). It shows the OP strength scale as far as I've been able to make sense of it from Terez' posts here and the Tor post, but keep in mind that my understanding is quite possibly completely wrong. :) (The original includes more color codes and longevity levels as mentioned in the Tor post, but I'll spare you all the full extent of my OCD-ness.) So far, I'm mostly just using it to make sense of the dual female rankings.

Terez
07-01-2015, 09:17 PM
It was noticeable to me, but mostly because this is also really a huge thing in manga/anime/certain kinds of Japanese novels featuring a same-sex relationship. The author is usually careful to signal, with varying degrees of subtlety, which character is the top ("seme").
I have found this to be a more common distinction for M/M pairings. But maybe I haven't read enough femslash.

By the way, in the event that someone might find it helpful, I have put up a simplified version of the Excel spreadsheet here (http://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1B7oUf522R7mTBX_9bYIVTIWm67xViDSIgU2oUsN8pyc/pubhtml?gid=0&single=true).
It might make everything a little less confusing if you switch the two blue columns, for two reasons: 1) that is how the numbers appear in the notes, and 2) that way the scales get smaller as one goes right.

Daekyras
07-01-2015, 09:22 PM
If one were unaware of how much this meant to him, one could easily miss the subtext.

Ha, new spring is the one I've read the least but I have missed that subtext EVERY time I've read it.

I really just thought it meant in general. With no sexual subtext at all!

fionwe1987
07-02-2015, 03:21 AM
The New Spring subtext I did catch. Interesting that he worked that part of it for all the pillow frienships.

Terez, could you clarify this paragraph of yours from Tor.com:

The + rankings for women above the 33-scale (Forsaken, supergirls, Cadsuane and a few others who died before the main story began) are additive (i.e. ascending levels above the Aes Sedai scale), while the ++ rankings for men are just rankings, so the lower ++ numbers are higher power levels, and the higher + numbers are higher power levels. RJ could have extended the Aes Sedai scale, making Moridin 1(+6)(+18) or something, but clearly that is more complicated than it needed to be for his notes.
What's the difference between additive levels and rankings? Do you mean That Level +2(11) would be equidistant from level 1(13) as level 3(15), but Level ++2 isn't the same distance from Lanfear's level as level +10(3)?

Terez
07-02-2015, 06:23 AM
It just means the numbers are backwards. Female + numbers are higher for higher strengths (Lanfear at +12) and make ++ numbers are lower for higher strengths (Ishamael at ++1).

GonzoTheGreat
07-02-2015, 06:53 AM
I suspect it just just a by-product of when those scales were made.
When the scale for women was made, Moiraine and Siuan were the strongest, so they got the first level and other AS were second rate or even lower. Then, when Lanfear, Egwene and Moghedien showed up, it was necessary to either use negative numbers or switch to a new scale.
With the male scale there was never any such problem, since the first two relevant channelers were Ishamael and LTT/Rand, who were Numero Uno and retained that position throughout.

I'm wondering now: if Moridin hadn't been in the Pit of Doom, conveniently waiting to be captured with Callandor, could Rand still have won?

fionwe1987
07-02-2015, 04:14 PM
I'm wondering now: if Moridin hadn't been in the Pit of Doom, conveniently waiting to be captured with Callandor, could Rand still have won?

Nope, since using the True Power is about explicit permission from the Dark One. He would never have let Rand have it at the Pit, and to oppose him, he needed his best TP user.

The biggest question is who made Callandor, and how the hell they made it into a TP angreal. I sure hope the Companion provides answers on these and other mysteries.

GonzoTheGreat
07-03-2015, 05:08 AM
Nope, since using the True Power is about explicit permission from the Dark One. He would never have let Rand have it at the Pit, and to oppose him, he needed his best TP user.
Why?
During most of the actual confrontation between Rand and the DO, all Moridin did was stand frozen with a sword in his hands.

If Moridin had killed Alanna somewhere else, while the confrontation was going on, then she probably wouldn't even have thought of releasing Rand from the bond.

Daekyras
07-03-2015, 08:33 AM
Why?
During most of the actual confrontation between Rand and the DO, all Moridin did was stand frozen with a sword in his hands.

If Moridin had killed Alanna somewhere else, while the confrontation was going on, then she probably wouldn't even have thought of releasing Rand from the bond.

Yeah, there was a lot of the final plan that was half baked.

I still feel a little let down by the whole confrontation. Moridin just seemed to serve no purpose. It was Rand vs his imagination a lot of the time.

fionwe1987
07-03-2015, 10:46 AM
Why?
During most of the actual confrontation between Rand and the DO, all Moridin did was stand frozen with a sword in his hands.
That's because Rand stepped out of time, not because Moridin was useless.

But that confrontation wasn't about defeating the DO, it was about Rand choosing life, and accepting the death of his fellow men and women as a price for locking up the DO.

What I'm saying is that Rand would never have been able to seal the DO away if Moridin hadn't been present.

If Moridin had killed Alanna somewhere else, while the confrontation was going on, then she probably wouldn't even have thought of releasing Rand from the bond.
I don't think she could have, from a distance. But there would then have been the issue that Rand would find a way to deal with it. The only purpose of killing Alanna was to shock Rand and cause him to be at an immediate disadvantage. And Moridin couldn't have ensured that with Alanna elsewhere given the crazy time dilation around the Bore.

GonzoTheGreat
07-03-2015, 11:24 AM
What I'm saying is that Rand would never have been able to seal the DO away if Moridin hadn't been present.That may very well be true. So why did the DO not send Moridin away before Rand arrived?

I don't think she could have, from a distance. But there would then have been the issue that Rand would find a way to deal with it. The only purpose of killing Alanna was to shock Rand and cause him to be at an immediate disadvantage. And Moridin couldn't have ensured that with Alanna elsewhere given the crazy time dilation around the Bore.Letting her slowly bleed to death didn't provide a very precise timing mechanism anyway, and doing it from afar would have prevented Nynaeve's meddling with the process.

fionwe1987
07-03-2015, 04:22 PM
That may very well be true. So why did the DO not send Moridin away before Rand arrived?
Because he didn't know Callandor was a TP sa'angreal? And also, since Rand was using the knife, the DO had no way of knowing when Rand would show up anyway.
Letting her slowly bleed to death didn't provide a very precise timing mechanism anyway, and doing it from afar would have prevented Nynaeve's meddling with the process.
I doubt Moridin considered that Nynaeve would even be there, let alone that even linked and unable to access her OP skills, she was enough of a skilled Healer to keep Alanna alive.

GonzoTheGreat
07-04-2015, 04:56 AM
Because he didn't know Callandor was a TP sa'angreal? And also, since Rand was using the knife, the DO had no way of knowing when Rand would show up anyway.Moridin was waiting for Rand there. He could've been organising a raid against the Yellows in Mayene instead.

I doubt Moridin considered that Nynaeve would even be there, let alone that even linked and unable to access her OP skills, she was enough of a skilled Healer to keep Alanna alive.Moridin didn't know how many people would accompany Rand, so he did not have much reason to think no one would be available to help Alanna.

fionwe1987
07-05-2015, 10:07 PM
Moridin was waiting for Rand there. He could've been organising a raid against the Yellows in Mayene instead.
It is very possible Moridin was there for something else when Rand began the assault. Maybe to help the transition of Shaidar Haran into a pool of blackness.

Moridin didn't know how many people would accompany Rand, so he did not have much reason to think no one would be available to help Alanna.
Fair enough. I just think he wanted her near him, which is not entirely unreasonable. The Dark One clearly only sensed Rand once he let go of the knife, so there's a good chance Moridin didn't know Rand was coming then.

fionwe1987
07-07-2015, 06:05 PM
Someone brought up an interesting point over at RAFO. How did Serafelle have a fever and nearly die from it if she could channel?

Any thoughts?

sleepinghour
07-07-2015, 07:33 PM
Team Jordan has posted another file (http://plus.google.com/103674399065634804648/posts/BLpsVNtLt1h) that didn't make it into the Encyclopedia: TGH or TDR-era notes on how long it will take for people or information to travel various distances.

News of great importance -- the death of a king, a civil war -- travels somewhat more quickly. [For example, Moiraine, on Toman Head, was able to tell Rand of the death of King Galldrian in Cairhien perhaps four months after it happened.]

fionwe1987
07-07-2015, 08:21 PM
Team Jordan has posted another file (http://plus.google.com/103674399065634804648/posts/BLpsVNtLt1h) that didn't make it into the Encyclopedia: TGH or TDR-era notes on how long it will take for people or information to travel various distances.

Interesting. I always felt RJ had a really good grasp on information flow and the effect it can have on political decisions. He certainly portrayed the advantages of Gateways and TAR to information gathering very well. Its great to see the amount of thought he gave to this.

Terez
07-07-2015, 09:28 PM
Thanks for calling our attention to those. I have a hard time reminding myself to check Google Plus. Maybe I just don't have the right people in my circles but it's kind of boring so I forget about it.

Anyway, I entered them in the database. It's been a while...

sleepinghour
07-08-2015, 04:45 PM
Tor has posted a portrait of Padan Fain (http://www.tor.com/2015/07/08/preview-new-art-from-the-wheel-of-time-companion/) from the encyclopedia. The artist is Paul Bielaczyc (no word on whether he'll be doing all new art or if they're using different artists).

fionwe1987
07-08-2015, 04:48 PM
Tor has posted a portrait of Padan Fain (http://www.tor.com/2015/07/08/preview-new-art-from-the-wheel-of-time-companion/) from the encyclopedia. The artist is Paul Bielaczyc (no word on whether he'll be doing all new art or if they're using different artists).

Maybe this will change when I see more of the artwork, but it seemed to be weirdly out of place for WoT. I mean, it is good, but this Padan Fain looks like he belongs in a Batman comic, not Wheel of Time.

sleepinghour
07-08-2015, 05:17 PM
I looked at the artist's website, and it seems like he's done some officially licensed WoT artwork before (http://paulbielaczyc.com/art-galleries-2/black-white-gallery/) for merchandise and had his art featured at JordanCon. So that might give us some idea of which other artists are likely to contribute to the encyclopedia. It wouldn't surprise me to see Ariel Burgess, whose art was on the playing cards. Michael Whelan is probably a pipe dream, but it would otherwise be nice to see more art from the ebook cover artists.

Southpaw2012
07-09-2015, 10:33 AM
I looked at the artist's website, and it seems like he's done some officially licensed WoT artwork before (http://paulbielaczyc.com/art-galleries-2/black-white-gallery/) for merchandise and had his art featured at JordanCon. So that might give us some idea of which other artists are likely to contribute to the encyclopedia. It wouldn't surprise me to see Ariel Burgess, whose art was on the playing cards. Michael Whelan is probably a pipe dream, but it would otherwise be nice to see more art from the ebook cover artists.

Ariel Burgess is personally my favorite. I'm sure we'll see stuff from Joe O'Hara (twot cast podcaster) and possibly Michael Whelan. I doubt he'll do anything significant but I wouldn't be surprised if he had a picture somewhere in the book.

sleepinghour
07-13-2015, 12:42 PM
Tor has opened another thread (http://www.tor.com/2015/07/13/spin-the-wheel-2/) where people can request which encyclopedia entry should be posted next.

sleepinghour
07-22-2015, 12:53 PM
Tor has posted another entry (http://www.tor.com/2015/07/22/wot-companion-spin-the-wheel-2-excerpt-oath-rod/) from the encyclopedia, this time about the Oath Rod. They also included the entry for the Nine Rods of Dominion as a bonus (it's very short).

On Google+, Team Jordan has posted another file (http://plus.google.com/103674399065634804648/posts/dbY6DdFpUmP) from RJ's notes with random tidbits about the Middle Ages. It doesn't seem to contain anything that directly relates to WoT, but I just skimmed it, so I could have missed something.

fionwe1987
07-22-2015, 02:46 PM
The nine rods were what we suspected. But the Oath Rod one was surprisingly empty of detail. The only new thing was that non-channelers could be bound by it.

Daekyras
07-22-2015, 07:09 PM
Tor has posted another entry (http://www.tor.com/2015/07/22/wot-companion-spin-the-wheel-2-excerpt-oath-rod/) from the encyclopedia, this time about the Oath Rod. They also included the entry for the Nine Rods of Dominion as a bonus (it's very short).

On Google+, Team Jordan has posted another file (http://plus.google.com/103674399065634804648/posts/dbY6DdFpUmP) from RJ's notes with random tidbits about the Middle Ages. It doesn't seem to contain anything that directly relates to WoT, but I just skimmed it, so I could have missed something.

Thanks sleepy.

One thing- at the top of that page is a painting by Todd lock wood. Am I the only one who hates that picture?? I just feel it misses the tone of WoT completely.

Marie Curie 7
07-22-2015, 07:53 PM
Tor has posted another entry (http://www.tor.com/2015/07/22/wot-companion-spin-the-wheel-2-excerpt-oath-rod/) from the encyclopedia, this time about the Oath Rod. They also included the entry for the Nine Rods of Dominion as a bonus (it's very short).


From Tor.com:
Nine Rods of Dominion — Nine individuals in the Age of Legends who served as regional governors of the world at the time. Ishamael said that Lews Therin had summoned them, which was an indication of Lews Therin having had ultimate authority.

I am surprised that the Companion entry for the Nine Rods does not reiterate what we already knew from RJ's blog: that the Nine Rods not only refer to the nine regional governors themselves, but also to the symbols of office that they held. :s

Interview: Dec 19th, 2005
Robert Jordan's Blog: THIS AND THAT (Verbatim) (http://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=254#4)

Robert Jordan
For someone—Marigan, I think, but my notes are a little wonky right about here—the Crystal Throne is not the High seat of the Tamyrlin, none of the Forsaken were among the Nine Rods of Dominion, and the "Rods" were symbols of office.


And also from the Waygate Foundation Q&A:

Interview: Apr, 2013
Waygate Foundation Q&A (Verbatim)
(http://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=980#10)
Question
Was the Oath Rod, one of the Nine Rods of Dominion?

What were the Nine Rods of Dominion?

Who were the 17 Generals of Dawn's Gate?

Maria Simons
The Oath Rod was not one of the Nine Rods of Dominion.

The Nine Rods of Dominion that Lews Therin summoned were the regional governors of the earth; a rod—but not an Oath Rod—was the symbol of their office.

The Seventeen Generals of Dawn’s Gate were a group of military commanders of high rank who led the fight against the Shadow in the War of Power; their names are unknown.

fionwe1987
07-23-2015, 01:50 AM
Thanks sleepy.

One thing- at the top of that page is a painting by Todd lock wood. Am I the only one who hates that picture?? I just feel it misses the tone of WoT completely.

Well, in some ways, so does that battle.

Weird Harold
07-23-2015, 02:12 AM
I am surprised that the Companion entry for the Nine Rods does not reiterate what we already knew from RJ's blog: that the Nine Rods not only refer to the nine regional governors themselves, but also to the symbols of office that they held. :s

I'm less than impressed by any of the previewed sections. They fall well short of the kind of details I expected.

GonzoTheGreat
07-23-2015, 04:33 AM
The only new thing was that non-channelers could be bound by it.They couldn't. The idea that it was possible was probably a left over from very early, when this issue hadn't been thought through well enough yet.

To her surprise, Caddar was also observant. "All you need do is have your Aes Sedai" - walking easily beside her on his long legs, he grinned suddenly, toothily, at Rhiale and Therava -"or any woman who can channel hold the rod and speak whatever promises you wish while someone channels a little Spirit into the number. The marks on the end of the rod?" he added, raising his eyebrows insultingly. "You can use it to release her, too but that is more painful. Or so I understand."
Sevanna’s fingers touched the rod lightly. More glass than ivory, and very cool. "It only works on women?" She ducked into the tent ahead of him. The Wise Ones and the leaders of the warrior societies were gone, but the dozen treekiller gai'shain remained, kneeling patiently to one side. No one person had ever kept a dozen gai'shain before, and she possessed more. There would have to be a new name for them, though, since they would never put off the white.
"Women who can channel, Sevanna," Caddar said, following her in. The man’s tone was incredibly insolent. His dark eyes shone with open amusement. "You will have to wait until you have al’Thor before I give you what will control him."

fionwe1987
07-23-2015, 09:38 AM
They couldn't. The idea that it was possible was probably a left over from very early, when this issue hadn't been thought through well enough yet.

Well, Sammael was obviously lying there. We know these Rods work on men too, since Balthamel was nearly asked to swear on one in the AoL.

GonzoTheGreat
07-23-2015, 09:46 AM
Well, Sammael was obviously lying there. We know these Rods work on men too, since Balthamel was nearly asked to swear on one in the AoL.First of all, you're confusing him with Nemene Damendar Boann, who happened to be a woman (later known as Semirhage). Second, it is quite possible that there were other Oath Rods (OR) which would have worked on men. People have theorised that the odd ones worked on women and the even numbered ones on men. The support for this theory is that the known OR had numbers 3 (the WT one) and 101 (the Caddar/Shaido one) respectively, and they worked on female channelers.

Maybe, in the AOL, men simply did not commit any crimes. I think that the odd/even theory is more believable, though it's not very strong either.

fionwe1987
07-23-2015, 10:23 AM
First of all, you're confusing him with Nemene Damendar Boann, who happened to be a woman (later known as Semirhage). Second, it is quite possible that there were other Oath Rods (OR) which would have worked on men. People have theorised that the odd ones worked on women and the even numbered ones on men. The support for this theory is that the known OR had numbers 3 (the WT one) and 101 (the Caddar/Shaido one) respectively, and they worked on female channelers.

Maybe, in the AOL, men simply did not commit any crimes. I think that the odd/even theory is more believable, though it's not very strong either.

I'm not confusing anyone. The BWB states that Eval Ramman came close to being bound with an oath because of his violent temper.

The rest are theories. There is nothing at all, except a statement from Sammael that obviously serves him, to indicate that Oath Rods had a gendered nature. And now, not even the Companion entry says any such thing. Why would those theories hold now?

GonzoTheGreat
07-23-2015, 12:10 PM
I'm not confusing anyone. The BWB states that Eval Ramman came close to being bound with an oath because of his violent temper.It says "bound with the Power", not "bound with an Oath Rod".
Maybe what they would have used was an Oath Rod. Maybe not. All we can really do is speculate, and the idea that the WT OR could have done it is very weak.

The rest are theories. There is nothing at all, except a statement from Sammael that obviously serves him, to indicate that Oath Rods had a gendered nature. And now, not even the Companion entry says any such thing. Why would those theories hold now?
There is also the further fact that for thousands of years the AS have been using their OR. At least in the beginning of that period they were also searching for ways of keeping male channelers under control. Is it really believable (even of AS) that they never combined those two and used their OR to keep the men from channeling and thus going mad?

The Caddar one sure worked when it came to keeping Galina from channeling, so that it could work in such a way is proven in the books.

Pevara sighed. It had seemed so encouraging, at the start. Terrifying and nearly overwhelming, too, yet they had appeared to be making a good beginning. Talene had only known the name of one other Black sister actually in the Tower at present, but once Atuan had been kidnapped-Pevara would have liked to think of it as an arrest, yet she could not when they seemed to be violating half of Tower Law and a good many strong customs besides-once Atuan was safely in hand, she had soon been induced to surrender the names of her heart: Karale Sanghir, a Domani Gray, and Marris Thornhill, an Andoran Brown. Only Karale among them had a Warder, though he had turned out to be a Darkfriend, too.
Luckily, soon after learning that his Aes Sedai had betrayed him, he had managed to take poison in the basement room where he had been confined while Karale was questioned. Strange to think of that as lucky, but the Oath Rod only worked on those who could channel, and they were too few to guard and tend prisoners.This quote does leave open the possibility that it might work on male channelers, but it says quite clearly that it won't work on non-channelers.

Marie Curie 7
07-23-2015, 04:54 PM
I'm less than impressed by any of the previewed sections. They fall well short of the kind of details I expected.

Well, the only other one we've gotten so far is the entry for Serafelle, and that seemed to me like it was an appropriate amount of detail for such a minor character. I thought that one was quite nice, actually.



They couldn't. The idea that it was possible was probably a left over from very early, when this issue hadn't been thought through well enough yet.

Perhaps, but Terez and I viewed the file at the College of Charleston Library from which this entry was taken. The file itself included references from the books up to Winter's Heart. So while this particular section might not have been updated by RJ to include his most current thinking on the subject, the file itself was certainly current as of the start of KoD at least.



First of all, you're confusing him with Nemene Damendar Boann, who happened to be a woman (later known as Semirhage). Second, it is quite possible that there were other Oath Rods (OR) which would have worked on men. People have theorised that the odd ones worked on women and the even numbered ones on men. The support for this theory is that the known OR had numbers 3 (the WT one) and 101 (the Caddar/Shaido one) respectively, and they worked on female channelers.

#3 and #111, actually. :p

Marie Curie 7
07-23-2015, 09:04 PM
Well, the only other one we've gotten so far is the entry for Serafelle, and that seemed to me like it was an appropriate amount of detail for such a minor character. I thought that one was quite nice, actually.

I'm sorry. I forgot that there also was an entry about Strength in the One Power (http://www.tor.com/2015/06/24/wot-companion-spin-the-wheel-1-excerpt/). I guess I was confused because Tor labeled the entry on the Oath Rod as #2. But that just referred to entry #2 in the fan-based requests that are randomly selected. The Serafelle entry was actually separate from those. :s

Weird Harold
07-23-2015, 10:24 PM
Well, the only other one we've gotten so far is the entry for Serafelle, and that seemed to me like it was an appropriate amount of detail for such a minor character. I thought that one was quite nice, actually.

I hadn't seen the Sarafelle entry, but now that I have, I'm still less than impressed. Not so much with the level of detail in that particular entry, but in the existence of that entry. I don't think it added much, if any, to my understanding of the WOT.

Lupusdeusest
07-23-2015, 11:00 PM
Technically non channelers can't bond Warders either, but Min.

fionwe1987
07-24-2015, 01:32 AM
It says "bound with the Power", not "bound with an Oath Rod".
Do we know of another widely used method of "binding" with the OP that was used on criminals in the AoL?

Maybe what they would have used was an Oath Rod. Maybe not. All we can really do is speculate, and the idea that the WT OR could have done it is very weak.
No, we don't have to "speculate". We just have to use common sense, and Occam's Razor.

There is also the further fact that for thousands of years the AS have been using their OR. At least in the beginning of that period they were also searching for ways of keeping male channelers under control. Is it really believable (even of AS) that they never combined those two and used their OR to keep the men from channeling and thus going mad?
And why would men make such an Oath? Keep them from going crazy, sure, but that was true of the Stedding too. And what happens if a man with such an Oath reflexively reaches for the Source? For that matter, how is this any better than gentling? The effects are likely to be the same.

The Caddar one sure worked when it came to keeping Galina from channeling, so that it could work in such a way is proven in the books.
Yes, no one is arguing it cannot bind female channelers.
This quote does leave open the possibility that it might work on male channelers, but it says quite clearly that it won't work on non-channelers.
As far as Pevara knows. In the previous book, Alviarin talks about Standing Flows, and how Mesaana told her most ter'angreal could be used by non-channelers.

I fail to see why we're arguing this. The notes state baldly that non-channelers can be bound with an Oath Rod. If RJ changed his mind or something, we'd need concrete evidence to prove that. We have nothing of the sort. Case closed.

Weird Harold
07-24-2015, 01:49 AM
Do we know of another widely used method of "binding" with the OP that was used on criminals in the AoL?

The "Chair of Remorse" or whatever it was properly called -- purportedly a way of binding non-channelers.

GonzoTheGreat
07-24-2015, 05:35 AM
And why would men make such an Oath? Keep them from going crazy, sure, but that was true of the Stedding too. And what happens if a man with such an Oath reflexively reaches for the Source?He would be automatically stopped. That's how the Oaths work, after all.

For that matter, how is this any better than gentling? The effects are likely to be the same.The man could still sense the OP. Based on the (admittedly prejudiced) testimony of all those who we have seen stilled/gentled in the series, that's quite a big deal.

Edited to add: Being gentled/stilled was the worst pain a human could undergo, supposedly. Being spared that might be considered nice too, by some (especially those about to undergo the procedure).

sleepinghour
07-24-2015, 07:27 AM
I hadn't seen the Sarafelle entry, but now that I have, I'm still less than impressed. Not so much with the level of detail in that particular entry, but in the existence of that entry. I don't think it added much, if any, to my understanding of the WOT.

I liked the Serafelle entry; it provided information we previously didn't have and fleshed out her character. Knowing her background will make her more interesting to me on rereads. The only disappointing part was that the entry mostly provided background information and nothing on what happened to Serafelle in later books or after the Last Battle. Obviously, Team Jordan can't be faulted for not including information which doesn't exist, but Terez posted some additional info about Serafelle having been at Dumai's Wells, so it seems more like an intentional choice to exclude some things.

GonzoTheGreat
07-24-2015, 08:34 AM
I liked the Serafelle entry; it provided information we previously didn't have and fleshed out her character. Knowing her background will make her more interesting to me on rereads. The only disappointing part was that the entry mostly provided background information and nothing on what happened to Serafelle in later books or after the Last Battle. Obviously, Team Jordan can't be faulted for not including information which doesn't exist, but Terez posted some additional info about Serafelle having been at Dumai's Wells, so it seems more like an intentional choice to exclude some things.RJ probably mostly needed to put things in those notes which he hadn't written (yet) in the series itself.
Only for the things that he knew he wanted to have written but couldn't do himself anymore (the last books/three books), did he provide an outline of what was to come.

fionwe1987
07-24-2015, 09:29 PM
The "Chair of Remorse" or whatever it was properly called -- purportedly a way of binding non-channelers.
That doesn't bind, though. It scares the living daylights out of you, if the person questioning you so wants.

He would be automatically stopped. That's how the Oaths work, after all.
They also choke you or have other physical consequences. What happens when the person keeps trying this.

The man could still sense the OP. Based on the (admittedly prejudiced) testimony of all those who we have seen stilled/gentled in the series, that's quite a big deal.
You can still sense the source when stilled/gentled. Only burning out prevents you from sensing the source. So the Oath Rod isn't different from gentling, is it?
Edited to add: Being gentled/stilled was the worst pain a human could undergo, supposedly. Being spared that might be considered nice too, by some (especially those about to undergo the procedure).
Not if the alternative is worse! Now, not only can you sense the source but never touch it, each time you try, you'll have a violent physical reaction.

GonzoTheGreat
07-25-2015, 04:36 AM
Not if the alternative is worse! Now, not only can you sense the source but never touch it, each time you try, you'll have a violent physical reaction.Not necessarily violent. When an AS tries to lie she doesn't suffocate; she is merely incapable of saying the lie.
The choking and such only resulted from the effects of a combination of two conflicting Oaths: one which prevented telling a lie and one which demanded it.

fionwe1987
07-25-2015, 01:53 PM
Not necessarily violent. When an AS tries to lie she doesn't suffocate; she is merely incapable of saying the lie.
The choking and such only resulted from the effects of a combination of two conflicting Oaths: one which prevented telling a lie and one which demanded it.
OK, but I still fail to see how this is better than being gentled.

Weird Harold
07-25-2015, 06:44 PM
OK, but I still fail to see how this is better than being gentled.
A Binding is reversible.

fionwe1987
07-25-2015, 07:35 PM
A Binding is reversible.
As is gentling, as it turns out. But we must remember, most Aes Sedai didn't know the Oath Rod could be used to unbind Oaths. They thought swearing on it was final.

Further, this would definitely be important if that was an option when the taint was real. But why would the possibility of release from the Oath (even if it were known) matter, when no one would release a man from such an Oath?

Also, I just thought of something. The Aes Sedai did not always bind themselves. The Three Oaths became a thing around the Trolloc Wars. Maybe they didn't even know what the Oath Rod did back when they were trying to figure out alternate means to deal with male channelers.

Certainly, I think we cannot conclude the absence of Oath bound male channelers means the Oath Rod cannot be used to bind male channelers.

GonzoTheGreat
07-26-2015, 04:25 AM
OK, but I still fail to see how this is better than being gentled.Well, for starters:
If a man was gentled, then he could never again channel. At least, that's what all the good AS believed until Nynaeve came along.
If a man was bound with the Oath Rod, then a provision could be left open to let him take part in a circle, if that were really necessary. Such a circle would be led by a woman, so even if he went mad that still wouldn't matter, apart from making it harder to care for him. And just the hope of "I may be able to channel again some day" could be enough to prevent the death wish all gentled men had.

GonzoTheGreat
07-26-2015, 04:27 AM
Certainly, I think we cannot conclude the absence of Oath bound male channelers means the Oath Rod cannot be used to bind male channelers.I admit that AS stupidity is another entirely reasonable explanation. Since I can't find a reason to dismiss that alternative, I must say that you are right and it isn't conclusive evidence.

fionwe1987
07-26-2015, 05:33 AM
Well, for starters:
If a man was gentled, then he could never again channel. At least, that's what all the good AS believed until Nynaeve came along.
If a man was bound with the Oath Rod, then a provision could be left open to let him take part in a circle, if that were really necessary. Such a circle would be led by a woman, so even if he went mad that still wouldn't matter, apart from making it harder to care for him. And just the hope of "I may be able to channel again some day" could be enough to prevent the death wish all gentled men had.
Wait... you're suggesting that the Oath would be for the man to not channel unless given permission? Permission by whom? The whole Tower? A specific Aes Sedai who is his minder? How is he to be forced into such an Oath? Compulsion?

GonzoTheGreat
07-26-2015, 05:42 AM
Wait... you're suggesting that the Oath would be for the man to not channel unless given permission? Permission by whom? The whole Tower? A specific Aes Sedai who is his minder? How is he to be forced into such an Oath? Compulsion?Details.
Compulsion is out, obviously. The rest of it could have been worked out by some committee reporting to the Hall once a month. They may have needed a century or so to agree on the specifics, but when it comes to centuries they had plenty available, so that's no problem.

Obviously, the man could only have been part of a circle large enough to ensure that he could not take control of it, so a single AS would not be enough.

Sarevok
07-26-2015, 02:05 PM
A bigger risk would probably be that it seems to matter quite a bit what the one bound by the oath rod believes that the oath means. Couple that with the fact that this person is going to be insane... You never know what goes on in his head when he does.

GonzoTheGreat
07-27-2015, 04:37 AM
A bigger risk would probably be that it seems to matter quite a bit what the one bound by the oath rod believes that the oath means. Couple that with the fact that this person is going to be insane... You never know what goes on in his head when he does.That could be a good reason to abandon the project. However, there's no indication that they even considered trying it. Which, in my view, can only be explained in one of two ways: either the OR does not work on men, or it is yet another case of AS stupidity. It is inconclusive which of those two is the actual explanation.

Sarevok
07-27-2015, 07:27 AM
That could be a good reason to abandon the project. However, there's no indication that they even considered trying it. Which, in my view, can only be explained in one of two ways: either the OR does not work on men, or it is yet another case of AS stupidity. It is inconclusive which of those two is the actual explanation.

A third possibility is that they took my concerns into account and decided the risk was too great. I know this seems unlikely with the current crop of Aes Sedai, but those in the past might have been somewhat smarter...

fionwe1987
07-27-2015, 02:43 PM
That could be a good reason to abandon the project. However, there's no indication that they even considered trying it. Which, in my view, can only be explained in one of two ways: either the OR does not work on men, or it is yet another case of AS stupidity. It is inconclusive which of those two is the actual explanation.

We know they tried for 300 years. We've got no clue what they tried, though.

Lupusdeusest
07-27-2015, 11:39 PM
Not necessarily violent. When an AS tries to lie she doesn't suffocate; she is merely incapable of saying the lie.
The choking and such only resulted from the effects of a combination of two conflicting Oaths: one which prevented telling a lie and one which demanded it.

Except Siuan, NS. Only lying Oath is affected (effected could actually also be used here) in that instance, and still she chokes.

GonzoTheGreat
07-28-2015, 04:57 AM
Except Siuan, NS. Only lying Oath is affected (effected could actually also be used here) in that instance, and still she chokes.Could you give a bit more accurate location than merely mentioning the book?
I haven't managed to find the passage you're referring to, yet.

Terez
07-28-2015, 09:56 AM
Could you give a bit more accurate location than merely mentioning the book?
I haven't managed to find the passage you're referring to, yet.
You should look after they swore the Oaths. That should narrow it down for you.

GonzoTheGreat
07-28-2015, 10:15 AM
You should look after they swore the Oaths. That should narrow it down for you.
To about half the book, yes. Which still isn't enough to have found it.

Terez
07-28-2015, 10:20 AM
Come on. There are only 32 instances of the word "Oath" in the whole book.

"That bloody fangfish of a woman will be the bloody death of me yet," she growled. That half a week had undone every scrap of the sisters' hard work with her language. "Fish guts! She expects me to dump like a spawning redtail! I never jumped so fast when I was a -!" She gave a strangled grunt and her eyes popped as the First Oath clamped down. Coughing, her face turning pale, she pounded a fist on her chest. Moiraine hastily poured a cup of tea, but it was minutes before Siuan could drink. Her mind must have been racing for her to come that close.

"Well, not when I was Accepted, anyway," she muttered once she could speak again.

GonzoTheGreat
07-28-2015, 10:35 AM
I see how one can interpret it that way. I think it's still far away from Zerah, who would actually have died if she hadn't been told that she did not have to lie (TPoD, Chapter 26, The Extra Bit).

As an aside, my rereading of part of NS made me wonder: did Tam ever get the bounty that was supposed to be distributed for all newborn babies around Dragonmount?
As an aside to the aside: who would be legally entitled to that money, anyway? Rand's mother was dead; who inherited that claim?

fionwe1987
07-28-2015, 01:08 PM
I see how one can interpret it that way. I think it's still far away from Zerah, who would actually have died if she hadn't been told that she did not have to lie (TPoD, Chapter 26, The Extra Bit).
That's beside the point. Most Aes Sedai choke off a lie before it gets as bad as it did for Siuan, because they have experience. But not lying is considerably more under your control than not reaching for the source, which we are told is like an addiction. Reflexively reaching for it is something we've seen all characters do, especially in stressful times, or when they are afraid. The last thing you want at these times is the kind of thing that happened to Siuan.

As an aside, my rereading of part of NS made me wonder: did Tam ever get the bounty that was supposed to be distributed for all newborn babies around Dragonmount?
As an aside to the aside: who would be legally entitled to that money, anyway? Rand's mother was dead; who inherited that claim?
I suspect we would have found out about this in the Tam prequel that RJ was planning. Maybe he lies. Maybe he suspects who Rand might be, and is suspicious of the Aes Sedai bounty.

But we do know Moiraine heard of him, somehow. Someone must have talked.

GonzoTheGreat
07-28-2015, 01:21 PM
That's beside the point. Most Aes Sedai choke off a lie before it gets as bad as it did for Siuan, because they have experience. But not lying is considerably more under your control than not reaching for the source, which we are told is like an addiction. Reflexively reaching for it is something we've seen all characters do, especially in stressful times, or when they are afraid. The last thing you want at these times is the kind of thing that happened to Siuan.We also know that Rand could learn not to channel (he refrained from using balefire), so this reflex can be brought under control.
Which is especially relevant when a man can't even channel consciously in the first place, yet, so they could have used this to save those who hadn't really started yet.


I suspect we would have found out about this in the Tam prequel that RJ was planning. Maybe he lies. Maybe he suspects who Rand might be, and is suspicious of the Aes Sedai bounty.

But we do know Moiraine heard of him, somehow. Someone must have talked.I don't think she had contacted him at any time before TEOTW starts.
If she knew already that he'd been outside the TR at the exact time when the DR was born, then that would have been a very important fact in her considerations.

What I think happened is that she was still hunting down the candidates in her notebook, and was now checking out a reference like "a woman with someone who may have come from the Two Rivers".

If she had known right from the start that Tam al'Thor had actually fought in the Blood Snow, that would have been enough to make her lose all interest in Perrin and Mat. Which, all in all, might not have worked out very well.

fionwe1987
07-28-2015, 11:49 PM
We also know that Rand could learn not to channel (he refrained from using balefire), so this reflex can be brought under control.
How is refraining from one weave in any shape or form similar to refraining from channeling??

Which is especially relevant when a man can't even channel consciously in the first place, yet, so they could have used this to save those who hadn't really started yet.
And how would they have found these channelers who haven't even started? If they're like Nynaeve, would an Oath to not consciously reach for the source even hold them if they reached for it without knowing?


I don't think she had contacted him at any time before TEOTW starts.
If she knew already that he'd been outside the TR at the exact time when the DR was born, then that would have been a very important fact in her considerations.

What I think happened is that she was still hunting down the candidates in her notebook, and was now checking out a reference like "a woman with someone who may have come from the Two Rivers".

If she had known right from the start that Tam al'Thor had actually fought in the Blood Snow, that would have been enough to make her lose all interest in Perrin and Mat. Which, all in all, might not have worked out very well.

I never said she contacted him. Obviously not. I think there are 3 options:

1) He (or rather Kari) met some other Accepted, gave a false but somewhat believable account, and the name got listed.

2) He and Kari elduded the Accepted,but someone else from his Company blabbed, and some other Accepted noted it down.

3) Someone blabbed directly to Siuan or Moiraine.

No. 2 seems most likely to me.

I vaguely remember that in NS, Moiraine is complaining about the sparsity of info, and she mentions an example that is very vague but is almost certainly Tam. Anyone remember this?

SauceyBlueConfetti
07-29-2015, 12:28 AM
Ask and ye shall receive


CHAPTER: New Spring
A whole country to search, only a pair of names to go by, and no certainty the woman had borne a boy. Too many like "Kari. al'Thor. From Andor? Husband Tamlin, Second Captain of he Illianer Companions, took discharge." That pair might have gone anywhere in the world and there was doubt she had had a child at all. Sometimes only the mother was listed, with six or eight variations on the name of a home village that might lie in one of two or three countries.

Terez
07-29-2015, 12:39 AM
For the record: it only exists in the Legends version.

SauceyBlueConfetti
07-29-2015, 12:44 AM
MyGoing back to old old older discussions of New Spring reminds me that the Black Ajah was always a step ahead of Moraine and Siuan. I argued once they (BA) had more info than the original wonder pair as they were killing all ages...and in fact focused on "lucky" men and a blacksmith at one point. Makes you wonder who knew what and how. It might have been coincidence. But maybe Ish and/or the Dark One and/or a foretelling had Perrin/Mat in their sites without understanding t hey were Separate people. Or The Creator intentionally split the savior into a trinity. Which has Christian ties that RJ May have wanted to use.

Awaiting answers from the Book of The Creator. As I am now calling it. Encyclopedia is too hard to type. Hee Hee.

fionwe1987
07-29-2015, 01:32 AM
For the record: it only exists in the Legends version.

That explains why the search for "thor" in the full version didn't bring this up.

fionwe1987
07-29-2015, 01:33 AM
MyGoing back to old old older discussions of New Spring reminds me that the Black Ajah was always a step ahead of Moraine and Siuan. I argued once they (BA) had more info than the original wonder pair as they were killing all ages...and in fact focused on "lucky" men and a blacksmith at one point. Makes you wonder who knew what and how. It might have been coincidence. But maybe Ish and/or the Dark One and/or a foretelling had Perrin/Mat in their sites without understanding t hey were Separate people. Or The Creator intentionally split the savior into a trinity. Which has Christian ties that RJ May have wanted to use.

Awaiting answers from the Book of The Creator. As I am now calling it. Encyclopedia is too hard to type. Hee Hee.

I always thought Siuan's analysis was sound. The BA were one step behind because they didn't know the exact contents of Gitara's foretelling. That Tamra was one tough lady to hold back as much as she did.

sleepinghour
08-01-2015, 01:22 PM
Team Jordan has posted another file (http://plus.google.com/103674399065634804648/posts/RacqJ6CpnQm) that didn't make it into the encyclopedia: a list of words RJ used when creating new words and names. It isn't the whole file, just a few excerpts and a description of what it contains. A few Gaelic names, like Baldhere and Daigian, were evidently used as character names without any changes.

RJ also used the names of two Irish fans named Nianh and Aisling who had written to him asking to be included in the books. Nianh is the name of Queen Ethenielle's Aes Sedai advisor. Aisling became an Aes Sedai as well (Aisling Noon, who was the advisor of King Easar).

The most puzzling is the end of the file, which consists of 145 lines of words arranged alphabetically but otherwise having no discernible connection. Here are three lines picked at random:

Sayonara Schweiger Scotland Scotlandjin
Scottish Segawa Seiko Hattori Sekigahara seku hara
Selfridges Sempai senbei Sendag Sendagi

A little like Jack Torrance in The Shining typing over and over, “All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy”? But it’s not for us to judge the methods of a word collector.

There does seem to be one connection in that nearly all of these words are Japanese. As a history buff, RJ might have gotten "Hattori Sekigahara" from Hattori Masanari (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hattori_Masanari) who participated in the Battle of Sekigahara. "Sekuhara," on the other hand, is a more recent word and shortened from the English "sexual harrassment."

Terez
08-01-2015, 05:04 PM
RJ also used the names of two Irish fans named Nianh and Aisling who had written to him asking to be included in the books.
The most interesting bit is that he made Aisling Noon one of the Tuatha'an. :)

sleepinghour
08-01-2015, 05:40 PM
The most interesting bit is that he made Aisling Noon one of the Tuatha'an. :)

Ooh, great catch. :) I didn't even think of that. Irish = Tuatha Dé Danann = Tuatha'an. Aisling was a Green, too.

fionwe1987
08-02-2015, 12:48 AM
Ooh, great catch. :) I didn't even think of that. Irish = Tuatha Dé Danann = Tuatha'an. Aisling was a Green, too.

Yup, a Green Aes Sedai who was Tuatha'an. I always thought Egwene's need-based TAR jump to a Tinker caravan would end up with some kind of conversation with Aisling. Probably was reading too much into it.

SauceyBlueConfetti
08-02-2015, 10:13 PM
Probably was reading too much into it.

This just totally made me spit my tea laughing. I am not sure if you are being a smartly pants with this or not. Just...funny. From a Theorylander.

Heehee:D

Daekyras
08-03-2015, 09:33 AM
The most interesting bit is that he made Aisling Noon one of the Tuatha'an. :)

To be called a member of the travelling people in Ireland is somewhere in the top five insults you can give!

sleepinghour
08-15-2015, 02:06 PM
Files that did not make the Companion #5 (http://plus.google.com/103674399065634804648/posts/9m7cZpGin5T).

This file is a list of proverbs or sayings that appeared in the series, through Knife of Dreams. Absent are the sayings of Lini, the grandmistress of aphorisms, as her maxims appear as part of the Lini Eltring entry in The Wheel of Time Companion.

Since it's just a list of quotes from the books, none of the sayings are new, but it's a fun list to peruse. :) And now we know what to expect from Lini's entry in the Companion: a collection of her, er, words of wisdom.

Terez
08-15-2015, 03:41 PM
And hopefully a little backstory too. I don't know how much we can expect, though; RJ was very sporadic about writing backstories for non–Aes Sedai people.

sleepinghour
08-15-2015, 07:36 PM
And hopefully a little backstory too. I don't know how much we can expect, though; RJ was very sporadic about writing backstories for non–Aes Sedai people.

It wouldn't entirely surprise me to learn that Lini once was a "lively girl," much like Laras. :) But as with the figs and mice, I suspect anything we imagine would probably top the real story.

fionwe1987
08-15-2015, 09:54 PM
Interesting that Lini's sayings will be an entire entry. But I do hope Laras has as interesting a backstory as Verin's respect for her suggests.

As for Aes Sedai backstories, I'm most interested in Verin's, Romanda's, Vandene and Adeleas, etc. Hopefully they will all have nice meaty entries. And I do hope Cadsuane's has some extra stuff compared to the entry we got some time ago.

GonzoTheGreat
08-16-2015, 07:00 AM
Accidents– once is happenstance, twice might be coincidence, but thrice or more indicates the actions of your enemies. [Moiraine POV, something her father had said]I've read that one in a slightly different form in another book. It's been a couple of decades since I read it and I have to reproduce it from memory, but the version I read was about:
"Once may be coincidence. Twice is suspicious. Three times indicates enemy action."

Whether the bear beats the wolf or the wolf beats the bear, the rabbit always loses. [Nynaeve to Moiraine, Two Rivers saying]Stupid rabbit. A smart one would've run away long since while the two predators were fighting.

The only man completely at peace is a man without a navel. [Perrin POV]Does a Halfman have a navel?

fionwe1987
08-16-2015, 12:37 PM
Stupid rabbit. A smart one would've run away long since while the two predators were fighting.

A really smart one would play them off against each other, and walk away with the prize.

GonzoTheGreat
08-16-2015, 01:27 PM
A really smart one would play them off against each other, and walk away with the prize.
Prey animals in the Two Rivers don't seem to be particularly smart when faced with wolves:
"Maybe she is Aes Sedai," one of the boatmen murmured, not quite low enough, "but I still say she’s one duckling who means to stuff herself in that wolf's jaws."

fionwe1987
08-18-2015, 10:23 AM
http://www.tor.com/2015/08/18/the-wheel-of-time-companion-spin-the-wheel-3-entry-mazrim-taim/

Some new details about Taim, but the entry is surprisingly short. The writing also seems weird to me, Brusque and very un-RJ like. It almost feels like a summary of a larger entry.

Taim was given secret instructions to recruit in the Two Rivers, which he said he would handle in person. Rand was reluctant about this, but thought that maybe he could trust Asha’man recruited there.

Who gave him the secret mission? Rand did, right? How is it "secret" then? And wouldn't turning these men have been of prime importance, then?

sleepinghour
08-19-2015, 10:36 AM
Tor will be posting a few more excerpts this week, starting with Elayne's entry (http://www.tor.com/2015/08/19/the-wheel-of-time-companion-spin-the-wheel-3-entry-elayne-trakand/). It's probably safe to say that at least some of it came directly from RJ's notes as it includes important details like bust size. :)

Elayne was slim, but not too slim; curvaceous but neither overly busty nor under-endowed.

It also tells us Elayne/Egwene/Aviendha's ranking on the OP scale, so I've updated my Excel spreadsheet (http://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1B7oUf522R7mTBX_9bYIVTIWm67xViDSIgU2oUsN8pyc/pubhtml) to add those three. Too bad Taim's wasn't mentioned; his strength would also have been interesting to know.

An Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah and the rebel contingent, with a potential strength level of 8(+5).

The rest of the entry just describes Elayne's personality and events from the books. There's nothing about Elayne post-AMoL.

Terez
08-19-2015, 01:10 PM
It also tells us Elayne/Egwene/Aviendha's ranking on the OP scale, so I've updated my Excel spreadsheet (http://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1B7oUf522R7mTBX_9bYIVTIWm67xViDSIgU2oUsN8pyc/pubhtml) to add those three. Too bad Taim's wasn't mentioned; his strength would also have been interesting to know.
That confirms my suspicion that most male strengths aren't in the notes. (We weren't sure if they were given in some file we didn't see.) Of course, we pretty much know Taim's strength from context; he's one level below Rand, just like Logain.

sleepinghour
08-19-2015, 01:15 PM
Team Jordan posted this (http://plus.google.com/103674399065634804648/posts/9K43LDFyrPJ) on Google+ yesterday:
Today the Bandersnatch team received the manuscript of The Wheel of Time Companion from Tor for one last pass—reviewing corrections completed and making one last attempt to find any remaining boo-boos. The corrected work will go to the printer shortly, and the first run of printing will be finished by the end of September, ready to start being shipped out to distributors and bookstores.

So, hopefully the OP strength entry will be corrected. However, I think they missed a golden opportunity in not letting a few HCFFs (at least Terez who's already read many of RJ's notes) check the book. There have been some complaints about the writing, too—in particular, Elayne's entry could have used a bit more copy editing.

In any case, the next entry to be posted on Tor tomorrow is said to be a "small, fun entry."

fionwe1987
08-19-2015, 02:12 PM
Elayne made arrangements with the Kin for them to have a headquarters in Caemlyn to help with Traveling and Healing, and arrangements with Mat for use of the dragons and the Band of the Red Hand. She attempted to fool the captive Black sisters and get information from them; she was captured again and stabbed but was Healed and managed to escape. Elayne put forth a claim to Cairhien, and after some political feints won the Sun Throne. When the Trollocs entered Caemlyn through gateways at the start of the Last Battle, she set fire to the city and led her troops north, eventually taking over allied command of the campaign against the Shadowspawn.

She was almost killed by Daved Hanlon on the Field of Merrilor, but was saved by Birgitte, already dead but returned as a Hero of the Horn.

I wonder if this is all the info Brandon had to work with for Elayne in the last three books.

fionwe1987
08-19-2015, 02:14 PM
It also tells us Elayne/Egwene/Aviendha's ranking on the OP scale, so I've updated my Excel spreadsheet (http://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1B7oUf522R7mTBX_9bYIVTIWm67xViDSIgU2oUsN8pyc/pubhtml) to add those three.
I think we can safely put Cadsuane and Bode at level 9, and Moghedien at level 7, leaving Nynaeve to probably occupy level 3.

However... am I the only one to feel very disappointed at these entries? The writing style is all over the place, there's not even a hint about the future, and it just seems very hodge-podgy.

sleepinghour
08-19-2015, 06:41 PM
That confirms my suspicion that most male strengths aren't in the notes. (We weren't sure if they were given in some file we didn't see.) Of course, we pretty much know Taim's strength from context; he's one level below Rand, just like Logain.

Is it just Elayne's entry, or is bust size a frequently mentioned topic in the notes? Also, did you happen to see if the size of Galad's smallclothes is mentioned anywhere? Asking for a friend.

I wonder if this is all the info Brandon had to work with for Elayne in the last three books.

It might even be less than that, for all we know. And some things don't seem to have been certain:


Mali Medina (23 January 2013)
You've said that you had to make choices from the notes at points. Can you disclose any of the paths not traveled?
Brandon Sanderson (23 January 2013)
Let's see... Here's one. RJ was uncertain if he wanted Elayne to have Cairhien or not by Merrilor.

However... am I the only one to feel very disappointed at these entries? The writing style is all over the place, there's not even a hint about the future, and it just seems very hodge-podgy.

No, this seems to be a pretty common reaction, judging by comments at Tor and the WoT community on Reddit. I think people expected more new information in particular from the Taim entry. Personally, I was never all that interested in Taim, so I was more disappointed by Elayne's entry since it doesn't seem to bode well for the other main character entries. I didn't really think there would be any juicy post-AMoL details, but there's surprisingly little new information beyond her OP strength.

fionwe1987
08-19-2015, 09:34 PM
Is it just Elayne's entry, or is bust size a frequently mentioned topic in the notes? Also, did you happen to see if the size of Galad's smallclothes is mentioned anywhere? Asking for a friend.
ROFL!!

It might even be less than that, for all we know. And some things don't seem to have been certain:
I had forgotten that. Wonder how that would have played out. Elayne drives Trollocs from Caemlyn, they head towards Cairhein, Elayne saves Cairhein, and is named Queen?

No, this seems to be a pretty common reaction, judging by comments at Tor and the WoT community on Reddit. I think people expected more new information in particular from the Taim entry. Personally, I was never all that interested in Taim, so I was more disappointed by Elayne's entry since it doesn't seem to bode well for the other main character entries. I didn't really think there would be any juicy post-AMoL details, but there's surprisingly little new information beyond her OP strength.
Yeah, even barring the absence of details about the future, the only thing interesting here is that RJ saw her as a development engineer type. That's certainly held up both by the ter'angreal making and how she blended the Warder Bond and Sister-bonding weaves. But there could have been a lot more about her OP abilities. I thought for sure the major characters would have a breakdown of their strengths in the Five Powers. We know Elayne has at least reasonable strength with all five, but did she have great strength in all five?

Things like that would have been nice. And a better distribution of the facts:

As a commander, she expected those under her to do as they were told. She had a weakness for sweets, especially hard candies, and colorful language. Elayne had the mind of a development engineer: she was not particularly good at discovering new principles, but she was a whiz at figuring new ways to use those already known and at reverse-engineering things. These abilities were particularly well suited to making ter’angreal, and she was the first after the Breaking to be able to do so. She tried to teach others how to make ter’angreal, but no one showed much skill or success in doing so. She had real abilities with weather.

Things jump around so much! It is like someone took bullet points and made a paragraph of it.

Southpaw2012
08-19-2015, 10:06 PM
I think we can safely put Cadsuane and Bode at level 9, and Moghedien at level 7, leaving Nynaeve to probably occupy level 3.

However... am I the only one to feel very disappointed at these entries? The writing style is all over the place, there's not even a hint about the future, and it just seems very hodge-podgy.

I doubt they're keeping it out just because

Terez
08-20-2015, 12:38 AM
From what I saw in the notes, I suspect the minor character entries will be more interesting than the major character entries. For the most part, RJ managed to work in all the backstory details for the major characters, while the backstories for minor characters were just there in the notes in case he wanted to use them.

I don't think RJ had decided whether Elayne was going to take the throne of Cairhien at all. There's no indication of it in what I read. I always thought it would be Moiraine, but there's no indication of that either. But he did originally plan for Moiraine to be Amyrlin. He ditched that idea before writing TEOTW, though, I think.

No mention of Galad's smallclothes. Sorry. Bust size...yes. Also the slash mechanics of lesbian relationships. Very important detail, that.

fionwe1987
08-20-2015, 09:46 AM
From what I saw in the notes, I suspect the minor character entries will be more interesting than the major character entries. For the most part, RJ managed to work in all the backstory details for the major characters, while the backstories for minor characters were just there in the notes in case he wanted to use them.
I hope more entries skew in the Serafelle direction than the Taim one, though.

I don't think RJ had decided whether Elayne was going to take the throne of Cairhien at all. There's no indication of it in what I read. I always thought it would be Moiraine, but there's no indication of that either. But he did originally plan for Moiraine to be Amyrlin. He ditched that idea before writing TEOTW, though, I think.
Interesting. I think I remember someone in Wotmania (Dom, maybe) theorizing that Siuan initially planned for Moiraine to be rebel Amyrlin, but abandoned that and put her hopes on Egwene when Moiraine "died".

sleepinghour
08-20-2015, 11:14 AM
And today's entry belongs to Narg (http://www.tor.com/2015/08/20/the-wheel-of-time-companion-spin-the-wheel-3-entry-narg/), the Trolloc who spoke to Rand and was killed by him in TEotW. Sadly, there's no mention of Narg's bust size.

fionwe1987
08-20-2015, 01:40 PM
And today's entry belongs to Narg (http://www.tor.com/2015/08/20/the-wheel-of-time-companion-spin-the-wheel-3-entry-narg/), the Trolloc who spoke to Rand and was killed by him in TEotW. Sadly, there's no mention of Narg's bust size.

Or anything about his not-so-small clothes. Some actual backstory would have been hilarious.

rand
08-21-2015, 12:14 AM
I'm hoping they're saving the good stuff for the actual encyclopedia. These are fun and all, but I'd like a little more than "Narg is a character in WoT. Here's a brief summary of everything you already know about him."

Is there supposed to be a snippet for every character? Like, every random innkeeper/Two Rivers kid/historical figure will get some kind of mention?

Terez
08-21-2015, 06:56 AM
Harriet has always said (in the past, when RJ was still alive) that it would include all proper nouns, but I'm not sure that's strictly true any more.

rand
08-22-2015, 12:47 AM
That would seem a little excessive. There are probably hundreds of "characters" who only get some vague offhand mention. Like, I'm thinking of the scene where Perrin rides back into Emond's Field after the Trolloc Hunt, and all the parents are calling for their kids. There are probably 12 or more characters introduced here that are never mentioned again. If they're included in the encyclopedia, I guess it could be as "A man from Emond's Field" or something.

Any idea how the encyclopedia will be formatted? Will OP charts, maps, etc get their own sections, or will everything be under an entry in the encyclopedia?

GonzoTheGreat
08-22-2015, 04:27 AM
I'm not sure they will all be in the Encyclopaedia. I don't think that is what Terez answered "yes" to; she wouldn't know precisely what decisions were made about that book.
But from what I've read, RJ did indeed (try to) keep track of every character he mentioned anywhere in the books, so that there wouldn't be any problems of the type "in book 3 he was a blacksmith, but now in book 7 she's suddenly a carpenter". What with how obsessive some fans are, such things would have been noticed and RJ didn't want to have to explain travelling AS operated sex change centres which he hadn't so far mentioned in the series.

Daekyras
08-24-2015, 04:36 AM
No mention of Galad's smallclothes. Sorry. Bust size...yes. Also the slash mechanics of lesbian relationships. Very important detail, that.

Um- what are slash mechanics of lesbian relationships? I've never heard that phrase before...

WinespringBrother
08-24-2015, 08:32 AM
Um- what are slash mechanics of lesbian relationships? I've never heard that phrase before...

Slash is shorthand for fan-fic shipping of fictional characters. You can imagine the rest :p

Terez
08-24-2015, 08:37 AM
The term "slash" eventually came to refer specifically to homosexual relationships because the slash itself has significance. For example, you might see a story labeled "Rand/Galad" or "Galad/Rand" or "Rand/Galad and Galad/Rand". Slashfic readers are often looking for very specific types of pairings. Some aren't so picky.

GonzoTheGreat
08-24-2015, 08:45 AM
The term "slash" eventually came to refer specifically to homosexual relationships because the slash itself has significance. For example, you might see a story labeled "Rand/Galad" or "Galad/Rand" or "Rand/Galad and Galad/Rand". Slashfic readers are often looking for very specific types of pairings. Some aren't so picky.
Though they do like women, I don't think that either Rand or Galad would really count as lesbian. And with female lesbians the meaning of the slash would be more ambiguous, wouldn't it?

Terez
08-24-2015, 12:58 PM
To some, yes, but apparently the distinction was important to RJ.

Daekyras
08-24-2015, 04:44 PM
The term "slash" eventually came to refer specifically to homosexual relationships because the slash itself has significance. For example, you might see a story labeled "Rand/Galad" or "Galad/Rand" or "Rand/Galad and Galad/Rand". Slashfic readers are often looking for very specific types of pairings. Some aren't so picky.

Right. And at the risk of getting an answer I am not expecting is there a difference between "rand/galad" and "galad/rand"?

Also, do the people reading these stories know they are brothers??

Wait. They do. Urgh.

Terez
08-24-2015, 06:37 PM
Right. And at the risk of getting an answer I am not expecting is there a difference between "rand/galad" and "galad/rand"?
Yes, there is a difference. That is the point.

Also, do the people reading these stories know they are brothers??

Wait. They do. Urgh.
Welcome to the wonderful world of fanfic.

sleepinghour
08-24-2015, 07:35 PM
Right. And at the risk of getting an answer I am not expecting is there a difference between "rand/galad" and "galad/rand"?


Short answer: Yes (http://i.imgur.com/QwMBoxc.gif).

Longer answer: Some people in slash fandom attach a specific significance to the order of the names. The first name's the top/dominant partner. So if it says Rand/Galad, Rand's the top.

As mentioned by Terez earlier in the thread, RJ apparently liked to keep track of who was the "top" in various pillowfriendships.

It isn't like he went into a bunch of graphic details, but his way of describing these things was rather less circumlocutory. He had a thing for noting who was "dominant" though these things rarely made it into the books. In the notes, he describes Galina as being "a top"; in New Spring, he says the same thing about Siuan but he was rather more subtle about it:

The second surprise, after their friendship, had been the realization that between them, the fisherman's daughter led and the noblewoman followed.

If one were unaware of how much this meant to him, one could easily miss the subtext.

fionwe1987
08-24-2015, 07:56 PM
As mentioned by Terez earlier in the thread, RJ apparently liked to keep track of who was the "top" in various pillowfriendships.

So Therava/Galina is cannon, but Galina/Therava is clearly not...

Daekyras
08-24-2015, 07:59 PM
Short answer: Yes (http://i.imgur.com/QwMBoxc.gif).

Longer answer: Some people in slash fandom attach a specific signifiance to the order of the names. The first name's the top/dominant partner. So if it says Rand/Galad, Rand's the top.

As mentioned by Terez earlier in the thread, RJ apparently liked to keep track of who was the "top" in various pillowfriendships.

I've never read any fan fiction. Now I'm kinda glad I haven't.

And as for that RJ quote, as I said earlier, I always just read it as they would have assumed the lady would take the lead in things over the fisherman's daughter. And I don't mean sexualy.

Maybe because I was an immature kid when I first read them?? Although? New spring- I was 20 I think when I read that!

Sodas
08-25-2015, 03:03 AM
http://www.tor.com/2015/08/18/the-wheel-of-time-companion-spin-the-wheel-3-entry-mazrim-taim/

Some new details about Taim, but the entry is surprisingly short. The writing also seems weird to me, Brusque and very un-RJ like. It almost feels like a summary of a larger entry.



Who gave him the secret mission? Rand did, right? How is it "secret" then? And wouldn't turning these men have been of prime importance, then?

That's what I said from the beginning and asked Robert Jordan in person about in my signing report. (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=248)

Funny, I knew it was Demandred all along. With the seal. So nailed it.

I just took it a step farther and said that put Taim in the right place, right time, to kill Asmodean.

sleepinghour
08-26-2015, 10:57 AM
Tor has posted the WoT Companion foreword (http://www.tor.com/2015/08/26/the-wheel-of-time-companion-foreword/) written by Harriet, as well as an excerpt (http://www.tor.com/2015/08/26/the-wheel-of-time-companion-old-tongue-dictionary/) from the Old Tongue dictionary.

fionwe1987
08-27-2015, 06:42 PM
Interesting. That "Mat" means control is a huge joke, and well done.

Nakomi, if broken down to Nak, O and mi means Who a my, which sounds like "who am I". I wonder if this satisfies the conditions for Brandon's "deep in the notes" statement...

Also, miere means waves/ocean, as we see in Atha'an Miere, but I wonder what Mierin meant. I was expecting some lunar meaning, maybe "causer of waves", but the dictionary doesn't have it.

Daekyras
08-27-2015, 08:31 PM
Interesting. That "Mat" means control is a huge joke, and well done.

Nakomi, if broken down to Nak, O and mi means Who a my, which sounds like "who am I". I wonder if this satisfies the conditions for Brandon's "deep in the notes" statement...


I have to say this thread is actally making me sad as I read it. The companion seems to be lacking a little bit of the depth I was looking for.

But this last two really vex me. I don't think that mat meaning control is a good joke. And it really strikes me as retconning to make it seem something that it wasn't.

And as for the Nakomi translating as who am I? That is trolling of the highest order. I expect better.

Haha, I almost said I deserve better! Gotta reign in the arrogance.

Khoram
08-27-2015, 08:33 PM
Do you think the Old Tongue dictionary will include proper pronunciation? Because, as much as I love having the dictionary, I would much rather know how to properly pronounce the words. And, I guess, what the grammatical rules are. If RJ actually came up with any.

fionwe1987
08-28-2015, 12:53 AM
I have to say this thread is actally making me sad as I read it. The companion seems to be lacking a little bit of the depth I was looking for.

I totally agree. This seems less of a companion than a compilation of RJ's informal notes. I would much prefer if they had worked on these notes, added in Harriet, Alan and Maria's own knowledge of the series, and made a proper companion that tried to explain RJ's thinking in depth.

But this last two really vex me. I don't think that mat meaning control is a good joke. And it really strikes me as retconning to make it seem something that it wasn't.
Not sure it is a retcon. And personally I think it is a good joke, especially since it isn't as if anything suggests Abel and Natti knew this meaning.

And as for the Nakomi translating as who am I? That is trolling of the highest order. I expect better.
Here, I agree. Not sure if this was intended, but seems to much of a coincidence if not.

Terez
08-28-2015, 01:41 AM
I don't think that mat meaning control is a good joke. And it really strikes me as retconning to make it seem something that it wasn't.
I don't think it's exactly a retcon. It's presumably linguistically related to morat.

Do you think the Old Tongue dictionary will include proper pronunciation? Because, as much as I love having the dictionary, I would much rather know how to properly pronounce the words. And, I guess, what the grammatical rules are. If RJ actually came up with any.
Depends on your definition of "proper pronunciation". You can find many Old Tongue pronunciations in the glossary entries, which we have compiled here (https://sites.google.com/site/hcfflibrary/glossary). It's not IPA, but most people don't know IPA anyway.

There was an Old Tongue file in RJ's notes which begins with an email Q&A with him and either Maria or Alan (I think Alan but I could be wrong). RJ sent his list of 850 basic words, and Maria & Alan (definitely both) went through the list and added words that RJ had used in the books that went beyond the basic words (he had read somewhere that one only needed to know 850 words and a bit of grammar to be more or less fluent in English, so he based his "basic" list on that).

The Old Tongue file we saw has "mi" and "o" but not "nak".

fionwe1987
08-28-2015, 06:33 PM
The Old Tongue file we saw has "mi" and "o" but not "nak".
Are you referring to the one Tor shared? Because that does have Nak.

Btw I never asked: when you went through the notes, did you come across anything that would explain what Brandon found "deep in the notes" to inspire Nakomi? I know you don't want to reveal anything, so I'm only asking for a yes or no here.

Terez
08-28-2015, 06:37 PM
Are you referring to the one Tor shared? Because that does have Nak.
No, I'm referring to the Old Tongue file in RJ's notes.

Btw I never asked: when you went through the notes, did you come across anything that would explain what Brandon found "deep in the notes" to inspire Nakomi? I know you don't want to reveal anything, so I'm only asking for a yes or no here.
No, but honestly I haven't done a very thorough read of them yet. I have to do that some time before JordanCon because we're doing a panel on the notes.

sleepinghour
09-01-2015, 03:44 PM
Team Jordan seem to be aware that many were disappointed by the excerpts from the encyclopedia, as they have now released a post (http://plus.google.com/103674399065634804648/posts/FM6ZmMua5e2) on Google+ where they address common complaints and explain what people should (and shouldn't) expect to find in the book.
In summary, this book is an encyclopedia, plain and simple. You won't find out if Rand sends child support in future to the mothers of his children; you won't find the plot lines for prequels and outriggers; you probably won't even be able to read an entry each night to your children as a bedtime story, not unless they're really weird kids. But if you want to cap off the series with a good solid reference book to paw through on cold nights by the fire, one that can sit on the shelf alongside the other books in the series-- yes, it's about the same size and shape-- this is just the ticket for you.

Also, the complete WoT series bundle in ebook format will be on sale (http://www.tor.com/2015/09/01/complete-wheel-of-time-labor-day-weekend-sale/) between September 5-8th for $44.99. The Kindle edition (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00M64A8UA/) is currently priced at $111, so it's a good opportunity to get the series for much less. The sale applies to other ebook formats as well.

Terez
09-01-2015, 07:00 PM
You want to know who killed Asmodean the first time, it's there and easy to find.
Um...Rahvin?

sleepinghour
09-01-2015, 08:05 PM
It made me feel kind of bad for them, as many criticisms have been of things they couldn't help, like RJ not having left much information about what happens after AMoL.

As for my own expectations of the encyclopedia, I think I'm just going to follow Verin's advice: "Always plan for the worst; that way, all your surprises will be pleasant ones." I'll try to expect as little as possible from this book, so that hopefully some of it will turn out to be a pleasant surprise.

fionwe1987
09-01-2015, 08:21 PM
<quote>Sometimes you will have to read carefully to pull out the nuggets. In a three page entry, for example, there may be a single reference to a character's motivation, something not made explicit in the series; be aware that that may be the key word that RJ held in the back of his mind as he was writing actions and dialogue for that character. This alone may make the Companion indispensable to a lot of fans. </quote>

This is the part that I really look forward to.

Daekyras
09-01-2015, 08:30 PM
<quote>Sometimes you will have to read carefully to pull out the nuggets. In a three page entry, for example, there may be a single reference to a character's motivation, something not made explicit in the series; be aware that that may be the key word that RJ held in the back of his mind as he was writing actions and dialogue for that character. This alone may make the Companion indispensable to a lot of fans. </quote>

This is the part that I really look forward to.

Indispensable to fans is a strange phrase to use here. I would be willing to bet that anyone complaining about the excerpts will be buying the encyclopaedia anyway. No matter the quality or lack of information within- if you identify as a fan of the wheel of time you will be after this companion.

I have been underwhelmed by the excerpts but will buy it at launch. Have people really been complaining about stuff like outrigger outlines? There is so much more to complain about!

Edit: is that another quote from tor fionwe?

Kimon
09-01-2015, 09:56 PM
Indispensable to fans is a strange phrase to use here. I would be willing to bet that anyone complaining about the excerpts will be buying the encyclopaedia anyway. No matter the quality or lack of information within- if you identify as a fan of the wheel of time you will be after this companion.

I have been underwhelmed by the excerpts but will buy it at launch. Have people really been complaining about stuff like outrigger outlines? There is so much more to complain about!

Edit: is that another quote from tor fionwe?

I doubt anyone was ever expecting even something remotely like the Silmarillion, but the worry, at least for me, is the suspicion that this might be little more than the encyclopaedia-wot.org plus pictures.

Weird Harold
09-01-2015, 10:28 PM
I doubt anyone was ever expecting even something remotely like the Silmarillion, but the worry, at least for me, is the suspicion that this might be little more than the encyclopaedia-wot.org plus pictures.
I haven't expected anything like that, but I was hoping for something like the Rivan Codex or an expansion of The BWB.

Terez
09-01-2015, 10:29 PM
I doubt anyone was ever expecting even something remotely like the Silmarillion, but the worry, at least for me, is the suspicion that this might be little more than the encyclopaedia-wot.org plus pictures.
It won't be that. There will be valuable tidbits from the notes that we don't already know. They confirmed in this post what I suspected, that there won't be much interesting about the main characters because RJ used all their backstory, but there will be something for most of the minor characters, particularly the Aes Sedai.

I don't think outlines for the outriggers ever existed. RJ wrote a few sentences on what they would be about, probably in an email to Tom Doherty rather than in his notes, and those have already been more or less revealed by Brandon. It existed entirely in his head at that point, and he hadn't wasted time making notes on it because he had a series to finish. Nothing surprising about that. Also not surprising that he didn't leave much detail on the prequels.

GonzoTheGreat
09-02-2015, 05:24 AM
Um...Rahvin?
I think that should've been in spoiler format. To protect those who haven't seen the relevant documentation yet, of course.

sleepinghour
09-09-2015, 11:31 AM
Another entry has been posted: Every Known Amyrlin Seat (http://www.tor.com/2015/09/09/the-wheel-of-time-companion-amyrlin-excerpt/). Some interesting tidbits in this one, including mentions of Cadsuane's meeting with Elaida during the Aiel War.

fionwe1987
09-09-2015, 11:56 AM
Another entry has been posted: Every Known Amyrlin Seat (http://www.tor.com/2015/09/09/the-wheel-of-time-companion-amyrlin-excerpt/). Some interesting tidbits in this one, including mentions of Cadsuane's meeting with Elaida during the Aiel War.

That, and the entry for Serielle Bagand were the highlights IMO. I'm surprised that we don't get a rating of Siuan as Amyrlin, or anything of her machinations then. But they said her entry wasn't full, and neither was Elaida's, so maybe there is more.

Some things were startling. I had always assumed Tamra would be at the upper rung of Aes Sedai strength, and also Serielle. Maybe I was infected by the Aes Sedai thinking of strength being most important. I'm glad that isn't true, and some of their strongest Amyrlins were weaker than others who turned out to be morons.

And the idea that RJ thought Egwene was a romantic person, and idealized Gawyn. That... never came across in the final books. Nor did the fact that the Tower Hall raised her in the hopes of controlling her.

Also... no entry on Caraighan Maconar? She was definitely Amyrlin, and the pre-Cadsuane Cadsuane, right?

Weiramon
09-15-2015, 01:30 PM
Bah, I understand this whining of commoners such as yourselves - thirsting for nuggets of wisdom on High Lords, Their lineage, crests, sigils. Rather you get dross about Amyrlins and Aes Sedai.

Best to embrace disappointment, such is your lot in life.

Lupusdeusest
09-15-2015, 10:21 PM
I've missed you, W.

GonzoTheGreat
09-16-2015, 06:08 AM
We also need information the actual motivations of the so called "Dark One". We always only got his enemies side of things; in order to be fair and balanced the series should provide just as many words laying out his side of the argument.

fdsaf3
09-17-2015, 01:26 PM
My problem with the Encyclopedia, and the largest factor in my likely decision not to purchase it, is summarized from this part of Harriet's post:

We also don’t claim that this book is without errors. Our entries draw as much as possible from Robert Jordan’s abundant notes, in order to show the reader what the writer wished to note for his own reference. One can infer that what Robert Jordan noted were points that were particularly important for him in the manuscripts; in some cases this was true. On the other hand, you can see that there are backstories on and descriptions of the various quirks and motivations of many characters, things that never made it into the books, but that informed the writer and helped him bring the characters to life.

Some entries were pulled directly from Robert Jordan’s notes with little alteration, to give you the flavor of his writing for his own personal use. As you will see, his phrases could be amusing at times.

While we hope that the reader will find a lot that is new and interesting here, we make certain disclaimers about the material. In some instances, the descriptions may vary from what is in the books. Writers constantly change their minds about characters, events and places in their creations, and adjustments often fail to be made in background notes. We have tried to correct all discrepancies of this sort, but sometimes let the more interesting ones stand, to show a change from the writer’s original intention compared with what finally arrived on the printed page. Or, the error remained because of our own oversight.

If this seems like a sneaky way to avoid taking responsibility for any error found here, well, maybe it is; that’s for you to decide.

This really rubs me the wrong way. Maybe I'm in the minority here, or maybe my expectations were significantly off base, but when I hear the phrase "encyclopedia" I have certain expectations of the veracity of the information. Personally, I'm not all that interested in reading RJ's notes as he developed the story. I'm generally not the kind of person who gets interested in such things. What I want is an iron-clad, absolute reference for the Wheel of Time series as it stands now that the series is over.

Maybe this is why the term has shifted from "encyclopedia" to "companion" - the change in terminology reflects the change in what the book purports to be.

For me, all the excerpts and information I've read about the WoT Companion fall well short of my hopes and expectations. I don't know if I'm alone in feeling that way, but it's kind of shitty. This feels really uninspired to me.

GonzoTheGreat
09-18-2015, 04:07 AM
The problem is that the only person who could produce such a worthy Encyclopaedia of WoT (EoWoT) is RJ, and it seems unlikely he will do this in the foreseeable future. So while having an EoWoT would be nice, it isn't realistic to wish for one.

fdsaf3
09-18-2015, 08:44 AM
I totally agree with you. That's why this whole WoT Companion book seems like a cash grab to me. But hey, if fans want it who am I to complain? Harriet et al don't owe me anything.

Terez
09-18-2015, 09:05 AM
I totally agree with you. That's why this whole WoT Companion book seems like a cash grab to me.
Except that Harriet and RJ were planning it for years before he died. It was promised to fans for years before he died. (Not fulfilled by the BWB—they always said this would be for when the series was done.) So Harriet is just doing her best to fulfill her obligations to the franchise.

fdsaf3
09-18-2015, 10:51 AM
Except that Harriet and RJ were planning it for years before he died. It was promised to fans for years before he died. (Not fulfilled by the BWB—they always said this would be for when the series was done.) So Harriet is just doing her best to fulfill her obligations to the franchise.

Fulfilling an obligation by releasing a product they are admitting beforehand might have factual inconsistency problems with the books in the main series.

Look, I understand that the Companion/Encyclopedia was promised. I remember hearing it talked about when RJ was still alive too. My problem is that it's an inferior product being released which capitalizes on the fanbase's insatiable desire for information about the Wheel of Time universe. Where are the standards? Harriet describes the book as one which physically can stand on a bookshelf next to the other books in the series. The problem is that the content of the Companion is, based on the excerpts so far, substantially below the standards set in the novels.

That's why I'm considering this a cash grab. People back out of commitments all the time. If Harriet and the team can't produce anything which is up to the lofty expectations people have, don't release the book. It's as simple as that.

Terez
09-18-2015, 11:17 PM
Fulfilling an obligation by releasing a product they are admitting beforehand might have factual inconsistency problems with the books in the main series.

Look, I understand that the Companion/Encyclopedia was promised. I remember hearing it talked about when RJ was still alive too. My problem is that it's an inferior product being released which capitalizes on the fanbase's insatiable desire for information about the Wheel of Time universe. Where are the standards? Harriet describes the book as one which physically can stand on a bookshelf next to the other books in the series. The problem is that the content of the Companion is, based on the excerpts so far, substantially below the standards set in the novels.
One could make the same argument about the last three books. Indeed, that argument has been made. If they wanted to do a cash grab, they'd be doing the prequels and the outriggers. Instead they're just doing the basics, including this book which Harriet has been planning for 20 years.

fdsaf3
09-18-2015, 11:48 PM
If Harriet has been planning this book for 20 years, there's no excuse for factually incorrect information to make it through. Period.

The argument you're sketching out falls flat on its face when you realize that at the very least they were outlined in part and finished the series that RJ started. The quality of the last three books might have suffered because of the change in author (although some, myself included, wonder how effectively RJ would have finished in 3 books even had he been fully healthy). That's really beside the point. The issue here is that this book is not part of the main series, and therefore needs to be evaluated in a different light than the last three novels. Even from a marketing and branding perspective this makes no sense to me. Why Harriet (and really, Team Jordan as a whole) would want to advertise their product as possibly being factually incorrect is beyond me.

Maybe you and I have different definitions of what a "cash grab is". In that case, let's stop discussing the definition of the word and what qualities meet our definitions. I respect your opinion and where you're coming from here; I suspect I simply have a different point of view than you do. And that's fine with me.

Terez
09-19-2015, 07:42 AM
If Harriet has been planning this book for 20 years, there's no excuse for factually incorrect information to make it through. Period.
I don't agree with that. I do think there are things they could have done to cut down on that sort of thing, but they have other considerations they have to weigh. And even if RJ were alive, it's likely that factually incorrect information would make it through. You should know that.

Many of the entries will be written in RJ's own words, like the Cadsuane entry that we decoded during the last Great Hunt. I read many similar bios in his notes; the language would have had to have been cleaned up a bit, but other than that, I think they will be solid entries. Harriet has been keeping a list of proper nouns since the early books, and my understanding is that filling out these entries was one of RJ's ongoing projects.

The main problem we have seen so far was in the in-world explanation Team Jordan had to create for the power levels RJ used in his notes. But there shouldn't be too many entries of this nature.

greatwolf
09-19-2015, 06:58 PM
Wow! It would be really nice to have a new wot universe book. Its been too long.

For me, all the excerpts and information I've read about the WoT Companion fall well short of my hopes and expectations.

If Harriet has been planning this book for 20 years, there's no excuse for factually incorrect information to make it through.

I agree. A book designed to answers questions should not end up causing more confusion. Personally, i can see its a difficult task to undertake without RJ himself yet why not release it when you are through? Is it really helpful?

I think that Harriet and team jordan need to be really creative and consistent to finish the masterpiece RJ started. For one, why not create a series based on mirror worlds(or is it parrallel worlds) with alternate endings? Or whatever. That way you can keep fans reasonably satisfied and experiment with new ideas. It also gives you time to do a thorough job on the encyclopedia.

I do hope that tor and Harriet consider this well. It may be that the companion will be better than what we are seeing right now, but if it isn't, it could end up a huge let down.

I for one, have always been a fan of the OP and its uses. Understanding the OP strength of various characters was key not only to understanding the characters themselves, but also their interactions and plots. If poorly handled, a lot of interactions would lose meaning but properly done, it makes the series even more colourful.

We are human and each of us has an unseen aspect(stronger in some and lesser in others) that is nevertheless an important part of who we are. RJ doesn't have to be too accurate about it. It is fiction. But it makes his characters more three dimensional, more real, more relateble for me.

So i read through the OP strength excerpt and am left really wondering at the number of things that are contradictory to what's in the books. Let me give an example. Rand had a number of encounters with the super strong, super skilled forsaken. Some i can understand. Some i thought the encyclopedia would give answers to.

a) Most men took about fifteen years to reach peak strength when Rand faced aginor at the eye, how did he win? Note Aginor was released with his aol body and channeling ability intact. He was almost as strong as LTT of the aol, yet he gets burnt out and rand survuives? Of course at this point, we are supposed to realize that it is the skill and strength of LTT of the aol that prevailed not only against Aginor but Ishamael as well. That is OP strength for you. It happened again later at Rhuidean with Asmodean.

b)Age. We are told that upper limit for age is 800 years for both men and women! However in the series RJ classified character ages into three major classes; young, middle (middle years)aged and elderly. Mesaana was stated to be considered young, and she was already above 300 years! That suggests a life expectancy of 900 years or more. And she isn't even at the top.

c)Who progresses faster? Those who start young or those starting at an older age? i don't mind either way, but if you decide that the older ones should grow faster, then you need to explain why the supergirls gain faster than others. And of course Rand.

If Tor and Harriet want to rewrite the series, its their call. But with enough creativity, the fans will be left wanting more. But just tossing out unrefined stuff won't do anyone any good. Enjoy.

fionwe1987
09-19-2015, 08:53 PM
RJ was clearly against an expanded universe where others could build in his world. Doing that WOULD be a cash grab.


a) when Rand faced aginor at the eye, how did he win? Note Aginor was released with his aol body and channeling ability intact. He was almost as strong as LTT of the aol, yet he gets burnt out and rand survuives? Of course at this point, we are supposed to realize that it is the skill and strength of LTT of the aol that prevailed not only against Aginor but Ishamael as well. That is OP strength for you. It happened again later at Rhuidean with Asmodean.
It also states that men start with a much higher proportion of their strength than women. Rand at the end of the EotW was much closer to his final strength than Egwene, for all that they started channeling on the same night.

b)Age. We are told that upper limit for age is 800 years for both men and women! However in the series RJ classified character ages into three major classes; young, middle (middle years)aged and elderly. Mesaana was stated to be considered young, and she was already above 300 years! That suggests a life expectancy of 900 years or more. And she isn't even at the top.

We have an average life expectancies in the eighties. Yet a 35 year old would be thought of as young...

c)Who progresses faster? Those who start young or those starting at an older age? i don't mind either way, but if you decide that the older ones should grow faster, then you need to explain why the supergirls gain faster than others. And of course Rand.

We already know why the Supergirls progressed so much faster. They were forced, Egwene most of all, hence her being at full strength by the Last Battle. Rand also was clearly forced.

If Tor and Harriet want to rewrite the series, its their call. But with enough creativity, the fans will be left wanting more. But just tossing out unrefined stuff won't do anyone any good. Enjoy.
I think there is zero intention of letting the series continue after this. Let's put that pipe dream to rest.

greatwolf
09-19-2015, 10:37 PM
[QUOTE]RJ was clearly against an expanded universe where others could build in his world. Doing that WOULD be a cash grab.


Kay by me. My point was that they needed accuracy and creativity. The other was simply an example.

Rand at the end of the EotW was much closer to his final strength than Egwene, for all that they started channeling on the same night.

Not enough to make any sort of meaningful difference. They were both starters and inexperienced. aginor should have brushed him aside. Besides you can't say for sure that Rand gained more than egwene as of EotW. I think the companion should help sort out that sort of trivial detail.

I made an error in my earlier post. Mesaana was just into her middle years not young. Still the principle is about the same. The upper age limit should be higher.

And why should saidin not allow a man to live longer, other factors being equal? We know that in most cultures, women live longer but the reason is obviously due to their living a more active and robust life :)

Edit: BTW i believe the reason Suian nearly choked was simply because she was stubborn enough to attempt to persist in the lie. It fits with her nature.

greatwolf
09-19-2015, 10:53 PM
It also tells us Elayne/Egwene/Aviendha's ranking on the OP scale, so I've updated my Excel spreadsheet (http://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1B7oUf522R7mTBX_9bYIVTIWm67xViDSIgU2oUsN8pyc/pubhtml) to add those three. Too bad Taim's wasn't mentioned; his strength would also have been interesting to know.
.

Nice spreadsheet. Don't you think Sharina should be on same level with Lanfear? Or is the ranking for actual strength rather than potential?

Terez
09-20-2015, 02:11 AM
Nice spreadsheet. Don't you think Sharina should be on same level with Lanfear? Or is the ranking for actual strength rather than potential?
Sharina's potential is not equal to Lanfear's strength. That was one of the big surprises in the notes. But it doesn't contradict the books. As Egwene thought, "Some thought she might become as strong as it was possible to be, though that was only speculation."

Hi Vardene. It's been a while.

fionwe1987
09-20-2015, 03:12 AM
Sharina's potential is not equal to Lanfear's strength. That was one of the big surprises in the notes. But it doesn't contradict the books. As Egwene thought, "Some thought she might become as strong as it was possible to be, though that was only speculation."

Hi Vardene. It's been a while.

Does anyone at all match Lanfear? Not asking for a specific name, just a yes or no.

fionwe1987
09-20-2015, 03:21 AM
Not enough to make any sort of meaningful difference. They were both starters and inexperienced. aginor should have brushed him aside. [\quote]

It isn't like he and Aginor had a proper duel. They fought for control of the flow of Power from the Eye. For all we know if was keyed to Rand. Or that his ta'veren nature caused Aginor to overdraw. I always read it as Aginor being unable to control himself after millennia deprived of the OP, and thus burning out.


[quote]Besides you can't say for sure that Rand gained more than egwene as of EotW. I think the companion should help sort out that sort of trivial detail.
I most certainly can. Rand was spinning lightning and heaving already amounts of Eartth in a way we don't see Egwene do till book 3. In EotW, she was struggling to even light a fire. She's not even as strong as Moiraine.

I made an error in my earlier post. Mesaana was just into her middle years not young. Still the principle is about the same. The upper age limit should be higher.

I don't see why. Nothing in the books says 800 can't be the upper limit. Though the companion does say some reached 900.

And why should saidin not allow a man to live longer, other factors being equal? We know that in most cultures, women live longer but the reason is obviously due to their living a more active and robust life :)
Well maybe the stress of using saidin reduces lifespan. Certainly conceivable.

Terez
09-20-2015, 03:25 AM
Does anyone at all match Lanfear? Not asking for a specific name, just a yes or no.
Yes. I was surprised at this person.

GonzoTheGreat
09-20-2015, 05:17 AM
Not enough to make any sort of meaningful difference. They were both starters and inexperienced. aginor should have brushed him aside.
You are overlooking the fact that they were not simply drawing on the OP; instead they were drawing on the Eye of the World. Which had been designed specifically to be used by the Dragon, just as the wards around Callandor had also been made to recognise him.
Now, I'm not saying this is a completely solid explanation; perhaps you are right and it is a mistake by RJ which no one ever spotted before. But it is a believable explanation which is compatible with the known facts (the ones who made the Eye came from the same group that warded Callandor and they did so based on prophecies by the same AS) and it solves this otherwise troubling issue quite neatly.

greatwolf
09-20-2015, 09:05 AM
Sharina's potential is not equal to Lanfear's strength. That was one of the big surprises in the notes. But it doesn't contradict the books. As Egwene thought, "Some thought she might become as strong as it was possible to be, though that was only speculation."

Hi Vardene. It's been a while.


Actually I was not suggesting that they were equal just on the same level like the way LTT and Ishmael were placed on the same level. If they Are on two different levels, then squeezing all of those with forsaken class strength on six levels will be tricky at best.

fionwe1987
09-20-2015, 09:38 AM
Actually I was not suggesting that they were equal just on the same level like the way LTT and Ishmael were placed on the same level. If they Are on two different levels, then squeezing all of those with forsaken class strength on six levels will be tricky at best.

But in terms of raw strength, being on the same level DOES make you equal. LTT and Ishamael are indeed equal in the amount of the Power they can draw.

And no one said all the male Forsaken are in those six levels above Lanfear. I'm sure Aginor and Demandred were, but that's about it. I'd be almost certain that Be'lal, Balthamel and Asmodean were NOT stronger than her even in raw strength terms.

Yes. I was surprised at this person.

Interesting. I am almost certain this is Alivia.

She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible; no woman could be stronger. She must have an angreal, too.

We know Lanfear was correct on the angreal, so a lot of people assumed Alivia was weaker than Lanfear's level, but seemed stronger than it (and impossibility) due to her strong angreal. But we know Lanfear didn't sense the ability to channel in Alivia (she was initially planning to stick a knife into Alivia). She had no way of knowing exactly how much Alivia could draw on her own at this distance, then. Alivia was at exactly Lanfear's level, and the angreal just enhanced her that much more.

Of course, it is entirely possible this other person is some unnamed character, but among the named ones, Alivia is the best bet.

sleepinghour
09-20-2015, 10:13 AM
Nice spreadsheet. Don't you think Sharina should be on same level with Lanfear? Or is the ranking for actual strength rather than potential?

I only added rankings that were confirmed by Terez in the previous thread about RJ's notes, or in the Companion excerpts posted at Tor.com. (It was recently updated with the Amyrlins' strengths from the latest Tor post.) The spreadsheet was mostly just an attempt to make it easier to visualize and keep track of the old/new scales, and the corresponding male levels.

On an unrelated note, here's RJ dressed as a pirate (http://plus.google.com/103674399065634804648/posts/L4dVhjoAbtC).

Terez
09-20-2015, 11:34 AM
Interesting. I am almost certain this is Alivia.
Alivia is not the person I was thinking of.

fionwe1987
09-20-2015, 11:40 AM
Alivia is not the person I was thinking of.

Hmmm. The plot thickens! Hopefully this is a named character and we'll come across them in the Companion. If I had to list the possibilities:

1) Someryn: Graendal called her "not inconsiderable", and Someryn herself takes pride that she has never met anyone stronger. Not that that means much, but an interesting possibility.

2) Talaan: Perhaps she hasn't reached her potential after all.

3) The 600 year old Kinswoman. Though how the Tower would possibly let someone of this strength ever go, and how they would forget about her, is hard to imagine.

4) Low likelihood, but it might be Tamela and/or Viendre, the two women Elayne notes as stronger than her.

5) Unlikely, but perhaps Semirhage.


Someryn seems most likely, I think.

Terez
09-20-2015, 11:56 AM
Talaan: Perhaps she hasn't reached her potential after all.
She has not. Or at least, RJ had a tendency to put (potential) next to the power ranking if the person had not yet reached their potential, and he probably made his notes on her around the time of Winter's Heart. Perhaps she reached it after that, but she was not around so we have no idea how much she was pushing herself. RJ did not leave specific notes on what was to happen to her so Brandon put her with the Dragonsworn at the end.

He went into a little more detail with the supergirls, e.g. so-and-so has not as of x book reached her potential, or so-and-so reached her potential in y book. Or, so-and-so is at x power level in y book with potential z.

PS

Someryn seems most likely, I think.
As far as I can tell, RJ never decided on a strength for Someryn, so I will be interested to see what they put in the Encyclopedia. By the notes, she is somewhere in a range of 3 levels, from Metarra to Graendal.

fionwe1987
09-20-2015, 12:04 PM
She has not. Or at least, RJ had a tendency to put (potential) next to the power ranking if the person had not yet reached their potential, and he probably made his notes on her around the time of Winter's Heart. Perhaps she reached it after that, but she was not around so we have no idea how much she was pushing herself. RJ did not leave specific notes on what was to happen to her so Brandon put her with the Dragonsworn at the end.
Interesting. He didn't have Elayne judge her potential, only her current strength, which matched Nynaeve. Neither of those women had reached their potential, though, so who knows, perhaps Talaan would go a few levels higher than Nynaeve and match Lanfear.

He went into a little more detail with the supergirls, e.g. so-and-so has not as of x book reached her potential, or so-and-so reached her potential in y book. Or, so-and-so is at x power level in y book with potential z.
Interesting. Wonder why none of that was in Elayne's entry. Hope we get to see some of this with the other characters, at least.

I had a question for you: over in RAFO there's a bit of debate as to whether the levels are even or not. That is, are the higher levels exponentially stronger than the lower ones? That makes no sense to me, but maybe the OP scale is exponential and not linear? Any hints of that in the notes?

fionwe1987
09-20-2015, 12:06 PM
PS


As far as I can tell, RJ never decided on a strength for Someryn, so I will be interested to see what they put in the Encyclopedia. By the notes, she is somewhere in a range of 3 levels, from Metarra to Graendal.

Wait... Metarra was at Elayne's level. Which was even less than her eventual potential of Level 8, correct? This means Graendal is Level 5 or less? Huh. Hadn't thought she would be that much weaker thank Lanfear.

Terez
09-20-2015, 12:22 PM
I had a question for you: over in RAFO there's a bit of debate as to whether the levels are even or not. That is, are the higher levels exponentially stronger than the lower ones? That makes no sense to me, but maybe the OP scale is exponential and not linear? Any hints of that in the notes?
I will let you know when I do a more thorough read, which will be after the Companion is released (so I can cross-check things).

Wait... Metarra was at Elayne's level. Which was even less than her eventual potential of Level 8, correct? This means Graendal is Level 5 or less? Huh. Hadn't thought she would be that much weaker thank Lanfear.
Elayne never judged Metarra's potential, only her current strength.

Rainyn was easily as strong as Lelaine or Romanda, and Metarra on a level with Elayne herself, while Talaan... Talaan, so meek in her red linen blouse, with eyes that seemed permanently downcast, came very close to Nynaeve. Very close. More, Elayne knew she herself had not yet reached her full potential, and neither had Nynaeve. How close were Metarra and Talaan?

fionwe1987
09-20-2015, 12:50 PM
I will let you know when I do a more thorough read, which will be after the Companion is released (so I can cross-check things).
Cool, thanks!

Elayne never judged Metarra's potential, only her current strength.
True. I guess I just assumed they would be close. Poor Elayne, she's going to find she isn't as uniquely strong as she thought. That is, if Metarra survived the Last Battle.

greatwolf
09-20-2015, 06:29 PM
It isn't like he and Aginor had a proper duel. They fought for control of the flow of Power from the Eye. For all we know if was keyed to Rand. Or that his ta'veren nature caused Aginor to overdraw. I always read it as Aginor being unable to control himself after millennia deprived of the OP, and thus burning out.


Firstly Rand couldn't identify any of the five powers (flows) so its obvious he was unaware of what was really going on. Its his pov so we can't say what else could have occured. But all of that is immaterial. What is important is that we were shown evidence that Rand was having his first touch of saidin earlier in the book. And he tells us of his increased strength after asmodean's teaching. Later still, we have comparisms that placed Flinn close to him and later Logain. There is a progression.

So Aginor should have been able to tell that Rand was not holding as much as he was. Enough reason to stop drawing and do something about Rand. But he continued till burn out. And the same amount that Aginor could not hold was what Rand not only handled but used in a manner most of the forsaken probably couldn't.


I most certainly can. Rand was spinning lightning and heaving already amounts of Eartth in a way we don't see Egwene do till book 3. In EotW, she was struggling to even light a fire. She's not even as strong as Moiraine.

You are proving my point for me. He shouldn't have been able to. And by book four we learn he couldn't. He had to find someone to teach him.


Well maybe the stress of using saidin reduces lifespan. Certainly conceivable.

The impression the books created previously was that age depends on strength meaning the more raw OP a channeler can draw, the longer his life expectancy. Of course he might die earlier than that, but an upper limit of 800 doesn't fit. I will give a few examples:

"We slow, Nynaeve. Somewhere between twenty and
twenty-five, we begin aging more slowly. How much depends on how strong we
are, but when doesn't. Any woman who can channel does it.


But...
"I am nineteen!" Talaan replied indignantly. Looking at that boyish face and form, Nynaeve was not sure
she believed.

Talaan had not slowed, yet; she was little more than a child. Fifteen? Maybe younger! The Light alone
knew what her potential was. At least, none of the Windfinders had mentioned it, and Nynaeve was not
about to ask. She had no interest in knowing how much stronger than she

AS apparently believe that slowing begins about 20 is most likely due to the fact that they have not had anyone strong enough to start slowing before 20years.

Of course that helps us fix a strength level for Tuon:
When she forgot to keep a stern
mask, her heart-shaped face belonged on a mischievous child.
Blessings of
the Light, when she smiled, she still looked sixteen! At best!

"My fourteenth
true-name day will come in five months," she said in a voice that was far from cold. In fact, it could have
heated the wagon better than the stove. He felt a moment of hope, but she was not finished. "No; you
keep your birth names here, don't you. That will be my twentieth naming day. Are you satisfied, Toy?
Did you fear you had stolen a . . . child?" She almost hissed the last word


So probably not a sparker and likely she will end up stronger than Talaan at least.

the oldest seemed girls to her; she had lived over three hundred years, quite aside from
her time sealed in the Bore, and had only been considered just into her middle years

The oldest AS are about 200 and Mesaana considers them girls. What age is a girl? Pre teen years?

Mora
"Nor have I from any save Mora," Bair told them, "but she was a remarkable woman. It was said she
was approaching her three hundredth year when she died from a bloodsnake's bite, yet she looked as
young as either of you. I was only a girl, but I remember her well. She knew many things, and could
channel strongly.

What I would like the companion to settle is whether Someryn had ever met Mora. As a legend all aiel supposedly knew of her and one would expect that Someryn would know her strength.

As if thinking of the woman called her, Someryn drew close to Sevanna. "The
woman has the gift," she whispered without taking her eyes from the pair.
"She weaves a barrier." Pursing her lips, she added, reluctantly, "She is
strong. Very strong." From her, that meant something indeed. Sevanna had
never been able to understand why strength in the Power did not count among
Wise Ones— while being thankful that it did not, for her own sake— but
Someryn prided herself that she had never encountered a woman near as strong
as she. By her tone, Sevanna suspected this woman was stronger

This bit has always created a problem for me. If Someryn knows Mora, then she is stronger than Mora. And graendal is stronger than both. She might have been referring to living aiel though. But she is clearly proud because she is the strongest of the aiel Wise ones. Therefore higher than both Viendre and Tamela who are in turn higher than Elayne's potential.

EDIT: In addition, we know the oldest of the kin is over 600 years old. If as seems likely, she is weaker than Elayne and co...

fionwe1987
09-20-2015, 10:19 PM
Firstly Rand couldn't identify any of the five powers (flows) so its obvious he was unaware of what was really going on. Its his pov so we can't say what else could have occured. But all of that is immaterial. What is important is that we were shown evidence that Rand was having his first touch of saidin earlier in the book. And he tells us of his increased strength after asmodean's teaching. Later still, we have comparisms that placed Flinn close to him and later Logain. There is a progression.
No one denies there is a progression. I'm saying Rand might have reached, say, 60% of his strength in EotW, whereas Egwene did not, because the very first time they hold the Power, men can use a greater percentage of their final potential than women. This matches what we see with the other Asha'man, who are exploding rocks quite soon after starting (when forcing would be hard, since they wouldn't be able to reliably find the Source), whereas we see that Novices take time to even reach a point where they can make three fireballs at once.

So Aginor should have been able to tell that Rand was not holding as much as he was. Enough reason to stop drawing and do something about Rand.
Yes, but given that he was conscious for 3000 years without being able to touch the Source, maybe he couldn't stop himself. He OD'd, basically.
But he continued till burn out. And the same amount that Aginor could not hold was what Rand not only handled but used in a manner most of the forsaken probably couldn't.
Very probably, the Eye was keyed to him specifically.

You are proving my point for me. He shouldn't have been able to. And by book four we learn he couldn't. He had to find someone to teach him.
Looks like you're forgetting. He makes a fairly large fire to drive back the Black Wind and uses Portal Stones to move quite a lot of people in the Great Hunt, and in early tDR, he causes quite a large earthquake.

He doesn't have control, but he is already quite strong. Egwene was not that far compared to her final strength till about book 4. But she learned control much faster, because she had teachers, and then the sul'dam.

The impression the books created previously was that age depends on strength meaning the more raw OP a channeler can draw, the longer his life expectancy. Of course he might die earlier than that, but an upper limit of 800 doesn't fit. I will give a few examples:
Yes, it IS indeed a matter of strength. But we know that raw strength for men and women don't mean the same thing, so why shouldn't that have a spill over effect on lifespan as well?

But...
Elayne's quote is made in ignorance. She says they begin to slow at 20... that is because Aes Sedai usually prefer girls 16-18 years of age. Elayne herself started at 18, even though Elaida probably knew she could channel earlier. Talaan started much sooner, so she started slowing much sooner.

For another, we know Aes Sedai don't let Novices use the Power very much, and slowing is definitely linked to repeated use of the Power. Windfinder apprentices may be using the Power a lot more often.

AS apparently believe that slowing begins about 20 is most likely due to the fact that they have not had anyone strong enough to start slowing before 20years.
I don't give two figs about AS beliefs on this. Their ideas are quite warped due to both the lower strength ranges they are exposed to, and more importantly the effects of the Three Oaths.

Of course that helps us fix a strength level for Tuon:
It does not. Tuon just genuinely looks child-like. Since she has never actually channeled, she has not started slowing. RJ said this explicitly too:

QUESTION
Since sul'dam have abilities normally associated with channelers only, do they also slow?
ROBERT JORDAN
No, not unless they actually begin to channel. Slowing is a function of actually channeling. If you have the ability to learn, and you never learn to channel, you are not going to slow, you will age at a normal fashion. Sul'dam are women who can learn and as they develop the affinity, as they have been doing this for a little while, they begin to slide toward the ability to channel, but they never step over. I believe I have someone say that one of these women felt almost as if she should be able to channel, but not quite. They are getting closer and closer to the brink but they will never step over without conscious effort.

The oldest AS are about 200 and Mesaana considers them girls. What age is a girl? Pre teen years?
The oldest AS are about 300 so quite close to Mesaana's age. She thinks of them as girls because their skills are as low as a new channelers, not because 300 year old would be girls!

And her statement makes it quite clear that 800 is the perfect upper limit. She was over 300, so 320 to 350 is her age range. And she was considered into her middle years. For someone of her strength, her age limit will be about 750 odd years, so 320-350 will indeed be just entering middle age.

Mora
This one is truly unpenetrable. She could have just been as strong as Elaida and still she would have looked youthful at 300. There really is no way to tell how strong she is.

What I would like the companion to settle is whether Someryn had ever met Mora. As a legend all aiel supposedly knew of her and one would expect that Someryn would know her strength.
Depends on Someryn's age, no? And also, if they met. There were thousands of Aiel Wise Ones. And they don't much care about strength. I doubt this info will be in the companion if RJ didn't even decide how strong Someryn was.

This bit has always created a problem for me. If Someryn knows Mora, then she is stronger than Mora.
This is a big if. For one, maybe Someryn met her when she herself was in training and unable to tell strength by being near a woman. Or they didn't meet at all.

And graendal is stronger than both.
Yup, she is. I had forgotten the quote you provided. So Someryn, whatever her strength, is likely weaker than Graendal.

She might have been referring to living aiel though. But she is clearly proud because she is the strongest of the aiel Wise ones. Therefore higher than both Viendre and Tamela who are in turn higher than Elayne's potential.
We don't know this. She may simply not have met them. Word of strength among Wise Ones in the One Power may not spread as much as it does among Aes Sedai.

EDIT: In addition, we know the oldest of the kin is over 600 years old. If as seems likely, she is weaker than Elayne and co...
Why would that create an issue? Even someone of Elaida's strength should live around 600 years easily. Someone slightly stronger would live longer, be close to the end of her life, and not even know it.

greatwolf
09-21-2015, 12:20 AM
No one denies there is a progression. I'm saying Rand might have reached, say, 60% of his strength in EotW, whereas Egwene did not,

Why are you talking about something else? Are you really suggesting that Rand was at 60%? Seriously?Even at that could he top Aginor? The only way he could have won that struggle would be if he was already at say 99%. Or better still, LTT's full strength.

Yes, but given that he was conscious for 3000 years without being able to touch the Source, maybe he couldn't stop himself. He OD'd, basically.

Okaay. very funny.

Very probably, the Eye was keyed to him specifically.

Wow! Straight out of the blue! Do you have a quote for this? And tell me why Aginor was able to draw it if it was keyed to him.


Looks like you're forgetting. He makes a fairly large fire to drive back the Black Wind and uses Portal Stones to move quite a lot of people in the Great Hunt, and in early tDR, he causes quite a large earthquake.

All after EotW and still makes no difference. He was able to outfraw Aginor in raw OP.


Yes, it IS indeed a matter of strength. But we know that raw strength for men and women don't mean the same thing, so why shouldn't that have a spill over effect on lifespan as well?

Raw strength means raw strength. Not strength plus dexterity or strength with talent, just raw strength.

Elayne's quote is made in ignorance. She says they begin to slow at 20... that is because Aes Sedai usually prefer girls 16-18 years of age. Elayne herself started at 18, even though Elaida probably knew she could channel earlier. Talaan started much sooner, so she started slowing much sooner.

Wrong again.
"I've heard the White Tower takes girls as young as twelve.
The Tower accepted girls under fifteen
only if they had already begun channeling.

AS train those under fifteen who have already started channeling, and therefore should slow before 20. Except of course that they don't.

For another, we know Aes Sedai don't let Novices use the Power very much, and slowing is definitely linked to repeated use of the Power. Windfinder apprentices may be using the Power a lot more often.

I have already given you the quote. slowing depends on strength not use of power.


I don't give two figs about AS beliefs on this. Their ideas are quite warped due to both the lower strength ranges they are exposed to, and more importantly the effects of the Three Oaths.

Their ideas are warped because of the three oaths? You're laughing somewhere right?

It does not. Tuon just genuinely looks child-like.

Yes, yes and so does Talaan. You know Luca is taveren?

The oldest AS are about 300 so quite close to Mesaana's age. She thinks of them as girls because their skills are as low as a new channelers, not because 300 year old would be girls!

Er.. would you read that quote again? Let me help

the oldest seemed girls to her; she had lived over three hundred years, quite aside from
her time sealed in the Bore, and had only been considered just into her middle years

no mention or thought of skills there, just time and age.

Depends on Someryn's age, no? And also, if they met. There were thousands of Aiel Wise Ones. And they don't much care about strength. I doubt this info will be in the companion if RJ didn't even decide how strong Someryn was

I haven't been able to find a description of Someryn's age or appearance in the books. Just a persistence reference to her incredible bosom.
Did RJ pen Someryn down as the strongest WO? Or his notes at about the time he wrote aCoS or even the heirachy of the Shaido WOs. There maybe enough clues there.

Yup, she is. I had forgotten the quote you provided. So Someryn, whatever her strength, is likely weaker than Graendal.

Graendal was also wary of her in her pov. She was impressed with cyndane at first contact and Moghedien was jealous of Nynaeve's strength. Taken together, that suggest at least rough parity. But it isn't concrete evidence.

We don't know this. She may simply not have met them. Word of strength among Wise Ones in the One Power may not spread as much as it does among Aes Sedai.

Again, you will have to read the post closely. Mora was a living legend in her time.
Someday I will tell you the story of how Mora moved a mountain.
Supposedly, at least."
"Another day?" Melaine said a touch too politely. Plainly she still smarted over whatever had happened
in Bael's dream, and over the fact the others knew. "I heard every tale of Mora when I was a child; I
have them all by heart, I think. If Egwene ever finishes dressing, we must see her fed."
Really unlikely Someryn didn't hear of her. She might not have wanted to come see her, but certainly she would know how strong she was. Especially since Bair did.

Why would that create an issue? Even someone of Elaida's strength should live around 600 years easily. Someone slightly stronger would live longer, be close to the end of her life, and not even know it.[/QUOTE]

The BWB states that non channelers in the aol lived to 150-200 years. Therefore the least channeler should have a higher life expectancy otherwise the OP cannot be said to confer any advantage. So given that what would be life expectancy for (1) the weak channlers not strong enough to be AS? (2) weak AS? (3) the strong ones? (4)elayne and those above known AS strength levels? (5) The men above the strongest femake levels?

I don't like long posts.

Terez
09-21-2015, 04:41 AM
Aginor didn't burn out. Rand killed him by taking the Power of the Eye away from him.

GonzoTheGreat
09-21-2015, 05:24 AM
no mention or thought of skills there, just time and age.
Maybe women have changed greatly in the last week or so, but there has been a time when there were women in their middle 30s who thought of just about any woman under 30 as "just girls".
People have a strong tendency to consider themselves the norm. This then results in them thinking anyone younger to be childish, not really mature, and anyone older to be ancient, in their dotage. It is theoretically possible that the Forsaken weren't prone to this kind of arrogance, but I would want to see evidence of that before accepting such a claim.

greatwolf
09-21-2015, 09:20 AM
Aginor didn't burn out. Rand killed him by taking the Power of the Eye away from him.

what happened? The Terez I knew would not need to be asked for the quote.

Gonzo, her meaning is quite clear.

Terez
09-21-2015, 09:25 AM
what happened? The Terez I knew would not need to be asked for the quote.
I'm getting lazy in my old age.

GonzoTheGreat
09-21-2015, 09:56 AM
Gonzo, her meaning is quite clear.
Yes, it is just clear in different ways to different people. I think that she has the attitude of an old-style colonialist, who thinks of all the natives as "children" who have to be ruled for their own good, or spanked (perhaps forcefully) if they disobey. You think that she was incapable of recognising that people of a mere two centuries old can possibly be already grown ups.

The attitude I ascribe to her is repeated in AMoL, when Mazrim Taim is introduced to the Chosen as their newest member.
Dark-haired, the man had the features of a Saldaean—a nose that was faintly hooked, eyes that tilted. He was handsome and tall, and Moghedien recognized him. "The leader of those fledgling male Aes Sedai? I know this man, Mazri—"
"That name has been discarded," Moridin said. "Just as each of us, upon being Chosen, discarded what we were and the names men called us. From this moment on, this man shall be known only as M'Hael. One of the Chosen."
"Chosen?" Hessalam seemed to choke on the word. "This child? He—" She cut off.
It was not their place to debate if one was Chosen. They could argue among themselves, even plot, if they did so with care. But questioning the Great Lord . . . that was not allowed. Ever.
Hessalam said no more. Moridin would not dare call this man Chosen if the Great Lord had not decided it. There was no argument to be made. Still, Moghedien shivered. Taim . . . M'Hael . . . was said to be strong, perhaps as strong as the rest of them, but elevating one from this Age, with all of their ignorance . . . It galled her to consider that this M'Hael would be regarded as her equal.Hessalam and Moghedien seem to consider Taim a child, not because of his age, but because of his ignorance.
On the other hand, this may be BS's interpretation, and having him agree with me is not necessarily proof that RJ would also have been sensible.

greatwolf
09-21-2015, 02:47 PM
There is clear difference in the context. Moghedien spoke in terms of equality she does not know Taim's age and did not care to know. only the issue of equality mattered. completely different from what Mesaana thought.

greatwolf
09-21-2015, 03:02 PM
double post

Chaosanth
09-21-2015, 04:05 PM
Hello all, I am new to this site but a long time Wheel of Time fan. Back in the late '90's I began constructing my own timeline for the series and then later came across Steven Cooper's much better timeline years later. Unfortunately his timeline stopped after TGS and the few attempts at a timeline after that to incorporate TOM and AMOL are sketchy at best. Anyways, I feel like a genius, j/k, because the Companion preview at Tor.com nails down Elaida and Egwene's raisings and the month of Egwene's death. Sorry if any of this is redundant or old news, but I am copying my comments there below to see if they help with nailing down the TOM and AMOL timeline:

"Long time lurker here. I couldn’t help but notice that Egwene’s formal raising as Amyrlin on Saven 22, 1000 NE actually corresponds with Steven Cooper’s projected timeline (http://www.stevenac.net/wot/tl1000.htm#book12). This along with her death sometime in Danu, 1000 NE, makes me wonder if it is possible to nail down a bunch more dates from TGS, TOM and AMOL or will we get a definitive timeline in the Companion?

Also, Elaida’s raising on Amadaine 16, 999 corresponds with Steven Cooper’s projected timeline!

So if Egwene was raised on Saven 22, 1000 NE and died in Danu, 1000 NE (at Merrilor) then it seems as though close to 6 months must have passed from her raising to the Last Battle. It also seems likely that Egwene and Rand would have met in the White Tower on or about Saven 24 and then the meeting at Merrilor would have been around Amadaine 23 (since there are 28 days in a Randland month)…so there still would have been another 5 months after the Merrilor meeting until Egwene died in Danu…even with the Pit of Doom time distortion this doesn’t seem to add up with the time that passed in the book, but maybe I am missing something."

Terez
09-21-2015, 04:37 PM
It would not surprise me if a team Jordan actually consulted the Chronology.

fionwe1987
09-21-2015, 06:08 PM
Why are you talking about something else? Are you really suggesting that Rand was at 60%? Seriously?Even at that could he top Aginor? The only way he could have won that struggle would be if he was already at say 99%. Or better still, LTT's full strength.
No, that is not the only way he could have won. Not one bit of that text indicates Rand was drawing more than Aginor.

Okaay. very funny.
Oh that's such a convincing response... my mind has been changed. :rolleyes:

Wow! Straight out of the blue! Do you have a quote for this? And tell me why Aginor was able to draw it if it was keyed to him.
We don't know that Aginor was able to use it safely. He did get burned out.

All after EotW and still makes no difference. He was able to outfraw Aginor in raw OP.
Quote, please.

Raw strength means raw strength. Not strength plus dexterity or strength with talent, just raw strength.
No, raw strength in saidar is not the same as raw strength in saidin, since the first lets you draw saidar, and the second, saidin. Saidar is a calm ocean you guide. Saidin is an ocean in storm you must force to do your bidding. Perhaps the second causes enough stress to reduce your lifespan, a little.

Wrong again.
Yes, IF they begin channeling. How often does that happen? How closely is their slowing watched? Clearly not enough to dent the common belief that you start slowing at a fixed age.

AS train those under fifteen who have already started channeling, and therefore should slow before 20. Except of course that they don't.
Or they don't look too carefully at this. Look, this is the same batch of women who are so reluctant to look into Agelessness and stuff that they believed that you got the Ageless look from channeling regularly. This despite having Accepted who had been in the Tower for a long time. Read the part before the quote from aCoS. Elin Warrel was past forty, did not have the ageless look, yet had been channeling regularly. Yet it took Elayne seeing Reanne Corly for her to realize the whole ageless look thing made no sense.

I have already given you the quote. slowing depends on strength not use of power.
And I have given you RJ's quote which says:

Slowing is a function of actually channeling.

Their ideas are warped because of the three oaths? You're laughing somewhere right?
Of course they are! They believe they can only live to 300 or so, and that the Ageless look is a function of regular channeling, not the Oath Rod. Are you seriously going to argue Aes Sedai are well informed about how channeling affects aging?

Yes, yes and so does Talaan. You know Luca is taveren?
And Bela is the Creator...

Er.. would you read that quote again? Let me help
Instead of cherry picking, let us quote the whole thing, eh?

Each was stronger than any of these half-trained children who called themselves Aes Sedai today, but enough half-trained children linked together could crush them all. Except, of course, that they no longer knew how, and no longer had the means in any case. Men were needed to take a link beyond thirteen, more than one to go beyond twenty-seven. In truth, those girls—the oldest seemed girls to her; she had lived over three hundred years, quite aside from her time sealed in the Bore, and had only been considered just into her middle years—those girls were no real danger,

See? There is mention of skills. They are half-trained children, because they don't know much. It is in this context that she says that even the oldest seem like girls to her.

We know she was in the Tower. While there are no 300 year old women in the Tower that we know of, there were definitely women in their 200s. That she thinks of them as children doesn't mean that they are actually children. As she says, even the oldest seemed girls to her. She doesn't say, "the oldest were girls in truth".

no mention or thought of skills there, just time and age.
Yeah... no.

Again, you will have to read the post closely. Mora was a living legend in her time.
For her actions. Not for her strength level in the Power.

Really unlikely Someryn didn't hear of her. She might not have wanted to come see her, but certainly she would know how strong she was. Especially since Bair did.
Bair did not know how strong she was. Only that she could channel strongly. Given that strength in the Power has no connection to your location in the Wise One hierarchy, there's good reason to believe that her exact strength level wouldn't be something they would discuss.


The BWB states that non channelers in the aol lived to 150-200 years. Therefore the least channeler should have a higher life expectancy otherwise the OP cannot be said to confer any advantage. So given that what would be life expectancy for (1) the weak channlers not strong enough to be AS? (2) weak AS? (3) the strong ones? (4)elayne and those above known AS strength levels? (5) The men above the strongest femake levels?


1) This would be a range too, of course. The likes of Morghase will still live to 150 or so. This might be a bit longer in the Age of Legends, given the better health care.

2) Terez will correct me here, but I believe Daigian was strength level 45. The Strength entry says strength level 56 was the 300 age level, so even the weakest AS will live to be about 360.

3) The strong ones at Elaida level or so should live past 600, given what the Companion says.

4) Elayne and the like would be hitting 700.

All this, remember, is the average lifespan for these levels. There is a 50 year error in both directions for this.

GonzoTheGreat
09-22-2015, 04:39 AM
There is clear difference in the context. Moghedien spoke in terms of equality she does not know Taim's age ...
Citation needed.
In this case you definitely have to prove her ignorance.

Consider the facts that Moghedien would have been aware of:
Taim had been a False Dragon. That meant that he had started channeling spontaneously. For men, that typically happens somewhere in their late teens or in their twenties. Taim had been active at the time that Moghedien and the others came back into the world, so he was less than 40 years old at that time. Since then, only a few years had passed, so he was most likely still less than 40, and maybe, at the very most, just a little bit over that age.

Now, which of those facts can you prove that Moghedien was unaware of?

Chaosanth
09-22-2015, 08:38 AM
It would not surprise me if a team Jordan actually consulted the Chronology.

Terez,

Has Team Jordan ever referenced relying on the Cooper timeline? Was there anything approaching it in RJ's notes?

Terez
09-22-2015, 09:25 AM
Terez,

Has Team Jordan ever referenced relying on the Cooper timeline? Was there anything approaching it in RJ's notes?
Relying on, no. They have mentioned it being good. In RJ's notes, not that I saw. (I only saw a historical chronology.) But I'm not sure everything was in the collection, and I'm not entirely sure what was there that I might have missed.

I think all the evidence points to Brandon's timeline being screwy, particularly considering Brandon's own comments on his difficulty with timelines and his reliance on Alan to keep it straight for him. But Alan had never been required to do this for RJ, and he wasn't ultimately able to straighten out all of the timeline issues in Brandon's books. Some attempts have been made to retcon, but they have not often been as graceful as RJ's retcons generally were.

My only point is that one shouldn't necessarily interpret a concordance with Cooper's Chronology as being especially relevant. Any significant break with the Chronology presents an opening for fans to ask awkward questions at signing events and con panels.

Chaosanth
09-22-2015, 11:10 AM
Relying on, no. They have mentioned it being good. In RJ's notes, not that I saw. (I only saw a historical chronology.) But I'm not sure everything was in the collection, and I'm not entirely sure what was there that I might have missed.

I think all the evidence points to Brandon's timeline being screwy, particularly considering Brandon's own comments on his difficulty with timelines and his reliance on Alan to keep it straight for him. But Alan had never been required to do this for RJ, and he wasn't ultimately able to straighten out all of the timeline issues in Brandon's books. Some attempts have been made to retcon, but they have not often been as graceful as RJ's retcons generally were.

My only point is that one shouldn't necessarily interpret a concordance with Cooper's Chronology as being especially relevant. Any significant break with the Chronology presents an opening for fans to ask awkward questions at signing events and con panels.

I cannot place my finger on it, but I believe at some point I remember seeing a reference that Maria kept a large timeline chart for RJ to keep track of where all the characters were at at any given time.

Southpaw2012
09-22-2015, 05:23 PM
If Harriet has been planning this book for 20 years, there's no excuse for factually incorrect information to make it through. Period.

The argument you're sketching out falls flat on its face when you realize that at the very least they were outlined in part and finished the series that RJ started. The quality of the last three books might have suffered because of the change in author (although some, myself included, wonder how effectively RJ would have finished in 3 books even had he been fully healthy). That's really beside the point. The issue here is that this book is not part of the main series, and therefore needs to be evaluated in a different light than the last three novels. Even from a marketing and branding perspective this makes no sense to me. Why Harriet (and really, Team Jordan as a whole) would want to advertise their product as possibly being factually incorrect is beyond me.

Maybe you and I have different definitions of what a "cash grab is". In that case, let's stop discussing the definition of the word and what qualities meet our definitions. I respect your opinion and where you're coming from here; I suspect I simply have a different point of view than you do. And that's fine with me.


I'm sure there are many instances where RJ's notes contradict what he wrote in the books, what he told Harriet, what he told Maria and what he put somewhere else in the notes for future use. So of course, there will be inconsistencies and I'm sure Team Jordan is doing their best to keep it consistent. By releasing that statement, Harriet is just making sure we know there could be contradictions.

greatwolf
09-23-2015, 02:31 AM
Sorry I am a little busy but I will try reply soon

greatwolf
09-23-2015, 06:49 PM
No, that is not the only way he could have won. Not one bit of that text indicates Rand was drawing more than Aginor.

Won? Aginor tried and burned out. Rand tried and succeeded. Not only that, he continued channeling long after Aginor died with enough strength to make a gateway, obliterate a trolloc army before facing Ishamael. It was the final confirmation for Moiraine that he was the dragon.

"Aginor was surprised and angry that I held him as long as I
did, but fortunately, he had no time to spare for me. I am surprised myself that I held him so long. In the Age of Legends, Aginor was close behind the Kinslayer and Ishamael in power."

Note Moiraine had an angreal.A little device designed to enable a channeler draw more without burning out/

No, raw strength in saidar is not the same as raw strength in saidin, since the first lets you draw saidar, and the second, saidin. Saidar is a calm ocean you guide. Saidin is an ocean in storm you must force to do your bidding. Perhaps the second causes enough stress to reduce your lifespan, a little.

You are claiming stress is universal? That every male channeler will get stressed by channeling so their lifespan drops by 10%? That's fiction right?:D

How closely is their slowing watched? Clearly not enough to dent the common belief that you start slowing at a fixed age.

They have not had anyone as strong as Elayne in a thousand years so how do you propose they watch. They know it begins at twenty for the strongest that they have. I don't see any issues in this.


Yet it took Elayne seeing Reanne Corly for her to realize the whole ageless look thing made no sense.

I am sure we were not discussing agelessness.


Of course they are! They believe they can only live to 300 or so, and that the Ageless look is a function of regular channeling, not the Oath Rod. Are you seriously going to argue Aes Sedai are well informed about how channeling affects aging?



See? There is mention of skills. They are half-trained children, because they don't know much. It is in this context that she says that even the oldest seem like girls to her

She spoke of skills first then moved on to age and age only.

We know she was in the Tower. While there are no 300 year old women in the Tower that we know of, there were definitely women in their 200s.

What? Quote that please.


Bair did not know how strong she was.

Despite the quote?

Only that she could channel strongly. Given that strength i

To be fair, you should also dismiss Sevanna's claim that Someryn had never met anyone as strong as she.
Two wise ones who cannot channel and both know the strengths of channelers and yet you still draw the conclusion that they don't know?

1) This would be a range too, of course. The likes of Morghase will still live to 150 or so

That is the life expectancy of a non channeler in the aol.

This might be a bit longer in the Age of Legends, given the better health care.

Did the companion list different life expectancy for aol and third age channelers?

fionwe1987
09-24-2015, 12:16 PM
Won? Aginor tried and burned out. Rand tried and succeeded.
Yes, but what in the text says they were trying the same thing? What in the text says they were reaching for exactly the same amount of Power? Maybe Rand reflexively only took in how much he could, whereas Aginor got greedy. In fact, Ishamael says as much:

“Yes,” Ba’alzamon said from in front of the fireplace, “I thought Aginor’s greed would overcome him.”

Not only that, he continued channeling long after Aginor died with enough strength to make a gateway, obliterate a trolloc army before facing Ishamael. It was the final confirmation for Moiraine that he was the dragon.
Yes, but for none of these things did he have to be at full strength. Moiraine's interpretation is riddled with holes. In this very book she things not even a Foresaken was strong enough to use Traveling to transport a thousand trollocs. She doesn't know it isn't a matter of strength, and she doesn't know that the weakest Aes Sedai that can make a decent sized gateway can still transport thousand people. She doesn't know as much as she thinks she does.


Note Moiraine had an angreal.A little device designed to enable a channeler draw more without burning out/
Yes... and? We know she wouldn't have been able to shield Aginor (who was already using the Power). She tried to hold him in Air, dropping the earth below him and ringing it in fire. He was able to break through those weaves of hers. How does this say anything about how much Rand was holding, much later?

You are claiming stress is universal? That every male channeler will get stressed by channeling so their lifespan drops by 10%? That's fiction right?:D
Of COURSE this is fiction. This isn't the real world, remember? Here's what we know:

A given strength level did not produce the same degree of longevity for a man as for a woman. At any given level of equality, a woman would live longer. In general, a man at any given strength would have a normal lifespan roughly ten percent less than that of a woman of that strength.

The only difference between a man and a woman of the same raw strength is that one channels saidin, the other saidar. So we need to look for explanations there.

They have not had anyone as strong as Elayne in a thousand years so how do you propose they watch. They know it begins at twenty for the strongest that they have. I don't see any issues in this.
I do. Even someone of Moiraine's strength who comes in as young as 15 would start slowing before 20. She will just slow less than someone of Elayne's strength. We have nothing in the notes that says slowing starts at a set date after you begin to channel. How much you slow depends on strength, of course, which is why Sharina, about a month after channeling, has already started looking younger. But when you start slowing is a matter of when you start channeling. There's no gap between beginning to channel and the start of the slowing process, so far as we know from the notes.

I am sure we were not discussing agelessness.
We are discussing Aes Sedai misunderstanding of slowing, and other age related issues.

She spoke of skills first then moved on to age and age only.
The first bit gives context to the second. Note she only says that the youngest "seemed" girls to her, not that they were girls.

What? Quote that please.
There is no quote, only common sense. We know Aes Sedai retire when they are approaching the end of their life. If you want to argue that all Aes Sedai older than 200 somehow vanished from the Tower just in time for Mesaana's appearance, do so. I'm not going to bother arguing such a preposterous idea.

Despite the quote?
What quote? Bair does not say how strong Mora was. Only that she was strong. Does that mean as strongly as Moiraine? As Cadsuane? As Egwene? As Nynaeve? We have no clue.

To be fair, you should also dismiss Sevanna's claim that Someryn had never met anyone as strong as she.
Two wise ones who cannot channel and both know the strengths of channelers and yet you still draw the conclusion that they don't know?
No, Sevanna's "claim" is based on what Someryn told her. Bair is generally commenting that Mora channeled strongly. One is based on direct information from someone who would certainly know if she met someone stronger. The other is based on Bair's memory of an ability she doesn't know as much of as an actual channeler.

That is the life expectancy of a non channeler in the aol.
And? We know, for instance, that channeling means immunity from various diseases. It is clear that Healing in the Age of Legends did the same for normal people, and also arrested their aging a little. But there's no hint that this could be compounded with the benefits of channeling. How much more immune to disease can you get?

Did the companion list different life expectancy for aol and third age channelers?
Except for the effects of the Oath Rod, not really. But we have clues. For instance, in the much harsher environment of the Waste, Wise Ones don't live as long as they could.

The Kin, on the other hand, seem to live out their full lifespans, probably because their connections with so many Healers mean that even injuries don't always kill them as they should. They may be somewhat more representative of AoL lifespan.

greatwolf
09-24-2015, 01:01 PM
fionwe, you are making posts and ignoring things that have been said or quoted earlier. If you are arguing just for the sake of it. ..
That said, you are still going off base here. My contention from the start has been that if Aginor could not survive drawing as much as he did, then Rand shouldn't have either!
Not unless he was already stronger in raw strength than Aginor as of EotW. Ishmael also thinks along the same lines as Moraine since he assumes that Rand is LTT at full strength. its the only conceivable way to them that Rand could have survived drawing that much. I only added the things he did after for your benefit, so you can see how much of the op Rand was using without burn out.
The only argument you have that can even be considered is that it was booby trapped or keyed to Rand. Unfortunately, there is nothing to support this except wishful thinking.

fionwe1987
09-24-2015, 02:46 PM
fionwe, you are making posts and ignoring things that have been said or quoted earlier. If you are arguing just for the sake of it. ..
That said, you are still going off base here. My contention from the start has been that if Aginor could not survive drawing as much as he did, then Rand shouldn't have either!
Not unless he was already stronger in raw strength than Aginor as of EotW. Ishmael also thinks along the same lines as Moraine since he assumes that Rand is LTT at full strength. its the only conceivable way to them that Rand could have survived drawing that much. I only added the things he did after for your benefit, so you can see how much of the op Rand was using without burn out.
The only argument you have that can even be considered is that it was booby trapped or keyed to Rand. Unfortunately, there is nothing to support this except wishful thinking.

I've been ignoring nothing. I addressed every point you made, and every quote you provided.

You have yet to show anything to prove that Rand and Aginor were drawing the same amount of strength. We know from the results and what Ishamael said that Aginor got greedy. He tried to draw on too much, and so he died.

Rand did NOT draw on too much. But we also don't know exactly how much he drew. Was it more than the strength of any modern Aes Sedai? Certainly. Was it his full potential strength? Certainly not, since he grew beyond that. That is all we know.

He didn't HAVE to draw as much as Aginor did, or more, to survive. He just had to refrain from drawing more than his current strength permitted.

sleepinghour
09-24-2015, 05:41 PM
greatwolf and fionwe1987: If you guys are going to continue this debate with long and quote-heavy posts, could you please move it to another thread so it doesn't overwhelm this one?

greatwolf
09-24-2015, 06:36 PM
greatwolf and fionwe1987: If you guys are going to continue this debate with long and quote-heavy posts, could you please move it to another thread so it doesn't ove
rwhelm this one?

the quotes don't seem to help anyway.

Gonzo,
I think there is a certain level of justification for their attitude. I know Rj said somewhere about the DO seeming to agree that the forsaken were far above the third agers. How do you compare someone trained for 200 to 300 years in the aol to someone who has been fumbling largely on his own for a year or two? it isn't realistic to expect them accept them as equals. However I am not saying that Taim has not had a hundred years of training under Ishmael, I just can't find a quote to support it. :D

fionwe1987
09-24-2015, 06:46 PM
greatwolf and fionwe1987: If you guys are going to continue this debate with long and quote-heavy posts, could you please move it to another thread so it doesn't overwhelm this one?

Fair enough. I'll make a new post if Greatwolf still wants to discuss this.

greatwolf
09-24-2015, 09:15 PM
can't guarantee I'll be able to keep up replies regularly. I have a lot of issues right now including laptop freezing, poor connection and my leave will end soon. so...

GonzoTheGreat
09-25-2015, 04:58 AM
Gonzo,
I think there is a certain level of justification for their attitude. I know Rj said somewhere about the DO seeming to agree that the forsaken were far above the third agers. How do you compare someone trained for 200 to 300 years in the aol to someone who has been fumbling largely on his own for a year or two? it isn't realistic to expect them accept them as equals. However I am not saying that Taim has not had a hundred years of training under Ishmael, I just can't find a quote to support it. :D
I think that the remark about children was in reference to the ignorance and simplicity of what AS do and can, not to their actual calendar age. That attitude towards AS ignorance was definitely at least partially justified, even though stupid stubbornness can apparently make up for a lot of ignorance, as most of the Forsaken discovered to their chagrin.

There is no reason to assume that Ishamael/Moridin spend that much time training Taim, and actually some fairly good reasons to think he didn't.
First, before Taim was captured, when he was still a False Dragon, he was not sworn to the Shadow. He wasn't good, but not "officially" evil either.
Second, right after Taim's capture, Ishamael was indisposed on account of being dead. He got over that, but that took time.
Third, while Ishamael was becoming Moridin, Demandred was teaching Taim.
Fourth, spending a hundred years on training one guy while only a few months pass elsewhere may be possible by using a vacuole, but it isn't safe, and if you miscalculate you might miss the entire Last Battle. So it seems unlikely that Moridin would have bothered trying.

greatwolf
09-25-2015, 11:55 AM
thinking of her own age sounds like a comparison to me Gonzo. and who was the oldest AS in the WT then? I don't recall Romanda's age but she was not in the WT and nowhere near 300 in her dotage

GonzoTheGreat
09-25-2015, 12:32 PM
Adeleas was about 290, and her sister Vandene was about the same age, according to a list I once made. True, she wasn't in the Tower, but then, at least half the AS weren't there most of the time, and two thirds were elsewhere while Mesaana was in residence. So it isn't reasonable to assume that the Forsaken only paid attention to AS who happened to be in the Tower itself.

As far as we know, Cadsuane was the oldest, and she was just shy of 300 (295, if the ACoS glossary is right and she was born in 705 NE).

fionwe1987
09-25-2015, 12:45 PM
Adeleas was about 290, and her sister Vandene was about the same age, according to a list I once made. True, she wasn't in the Tower, but then, at least half the AS weren't there most of the time, and two thirds were elsewhere while Mesaana was in residence. So it isn't reasonable to assume that the Forsaken only paid attention to AS who happened to be in the Tower itself.

As far as we know, Cadsuane was the oldest, and she was just shy of 300 (295, if the ACoS glossary is right and she was born in 705 NE).

The 705 NE date is also in the notes about Cadsuane that we got in the Great Hunt. So that seems confirmed.

We don't see a lot of white/fully grey haired women in the Tower proper. But we do see several with grey in their hair. Among the Salidar sisters, Lelaine is the second oldest after Romanda, and she doesn't even have any grey. In the Tower, we know Saerin is about 200 odd, since she was a part of the Daughters of Silence, which functioned from 794 to 798 NE. Assuming she was around 15 when she started, her birth year is somewhere in 780 NE.

Danelle almost certainly knew Saerin, who was a Sitter in "her" Ajah, and stood against Siuan and helped raise Elaida. And nothing says Saerin was the oldest woman in the Tower. I'd frankly think not. She's just the oldest Sitter.

Kimon
09-25-2015, 05:01 PM
The 705 NE date is also in the notes about Cadsuane that we got in the Great Hunt. So that seems confirmed.

We don't see a lot of white/fully grey haired women in the Tower proper. But we do see several with grey in their hair. Among the Salidar sisters, Lelaine is the second oldest after Romanda, and she doesn't even have any grey. In the Tower, we know Saerin is about 200 odd, since she was a part of the Daughters of Silence, which functioned from 794 to 798 NE. Assuming she was around 15 when she started, her birth year is somewhere in 780 NE.

Danelle almost certainly knew Saerin, who was a Sitter in "her" Ajah, and stood against Siuan and helped raise Elaida. And nothing says Saerin was the oldest woman in the Tower. I'd frankly think not. She's just the oldest Sitter.

Tamra seemed to prefer old sisters for her searchers. We know of only five by name from New Spring, and they all die - Kerene, Meilyn, Aisha, Ludice, and Valera. We know that Kerene was over 200, and Meilyn over 300 years old, about the others Moiraine only states that all had worn the shawl well over a hundred years. We never, as far as I'm aware got a definitive answer on whether Cadsuane or any others were amongst Tamra's searchers, nonetheless, the Tower seemingly lost most of its strongest, and oldest, channelers on that mission.

GonzoTheGreat
09-26-2015, 05:31 AM
After the Aiel retreated from Tar Valon Cadsuane retired once more, according to ACoS (chapter 19, Diamonds and Stars).

Kimon
09-26-2015, 09:31 AM
After the Aiel retreated from Tar Valon Cadsuane retired once more, according to ACoS (chapter 19, Diamonds and Stars).

Nonetheless, what exactly was she doing in Kandor? If Tamra could have gotten a message to her, she would have fit the profile of her other searchers - very strong, very old, trusted, not red. A claim of going off into retirement, or of just wandering around for sh*ts and giggles to stave off the boredom would be an easy story to sell. She certainly wasn't on the Grey's mission of trying to keep the alliance together, nor on the Black's of hunting Tamra's crew and potential male channelers. It might just have been wanderlust that brought her to the north, but Moiraine was right to find her presence there suspicious.

GonzoTheGreat
09-26-2015, 10:34 AM
Then again, Cadsuane seems to have had a Talent for annoying Amyrlins. So it is somewhat unclear to what extend she was trusted. She was no doubt considered competent at what she did, but that's not the same.

fionwe1987
09-26-2015, 10:35 AM
Nonetheless, what exactly was she doing in Kandor? If Tamra could have gotten a message to her, she would have fit the profile of her other searchers - very strong, very old, trusted, not red. A claim of going off into retirement, or of just wandering around for sh*ts and giggles to stave off the boredom would be an easy story to sell. She certainly wasn't on the Grey's mission of trying to keep the alliance together, nor on the Black's of hunting Tamra's crew and potential male channelers. It might just have been wanderlust that brought her to the north, but Moiraine was right to find her presence there suspicious.

I'm not sure if "trusted" fits. The other women Tamra picked all had a “reputation for strict adherence to the law.” To be precise, each was reputed "“to adhere to the strictest letter of the law no matter her own feelings, whether pity or contempt.”

This is certainly not true of Cadsuane. She had a reputation for discarding tradition and law when it suited her.

And we know she cannot have been a searcher. If she had the same list Moiraine did, why would she give up and go into retirement in Ghealdan?

As for what she was doing in Kandor? Hunting for the Black Ajah of course. She did say she had a quarry that "slipped through her fingers". Seems very likely this was Merean.

Kimon
09-26-2015, 10:52 AM
I'm not sure if "trusted" fits. The other women Tamra picked all had a “reputation for strict adherence to the law.” To be precise, each was reputed "“to adhere to the strictest letter of the law no matter her own feelings, whether pity or contempt.”

This is certainly not true of Cadsuane. She had a reputation for discarding tradition and law when it suited her.

And we know she cannot have been a searcher. If she had the same list Moiraine did, why would she give up and go into retirement in Ghealdan?

As for what she was doing in Kandor? Hunting for the Black Ajah of course. She did say she had a quarry that "slipped through her fingers". Seems very likely this was Merean.

Hunting the Black Ajah would also have made sense, but if she was hunting Merean, why wasn't she in Chachin? Merean wasn't exactly keeping a low profile. I'm honestly not sure what she was up to in Kandor. As for Ghealdan, if she was really hunting the Black Ajah, suddenly going off into retirement in Ghealdan again makes little sense. If she was certain that Merean was Black, why not return to the Tower and try to ferret out her associates? Little that Cadsuane did makes sense, which I suppose makes your questioning of just how trusted she would have been pretty legitimate.

On that same line of thought however, did we ever get confirmation as to whether or not Tamra accidentally approached Jarna? She would have also have fit the profile for her searchers. It would certainly have made sense that Tamra accidentally either approached her or one of the other Black sisters, and Jarna seems the most likely, perhaps but for the fact that she was a Sitter. Her name doesn't render any finds when plugged into the interview database unfortunately.