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NargsBrood
07-27-2015, 04:03 PM
NYT: PPH Fetal Parts (http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015/07/16/us/ap-us-planned-parenthood-fetal-parts.html)

If true that Planned Parenthood is making money off the aborted fetuses -- they've broken laws.

However, the question I have: Should they be free from oversight or should they be subjected to oversight?

Davian93
07-27-2015, 05:17 PM
Its not true and its completely inaccurate.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/religion/the-hidden-ethics-battle-in-the-planned-parenthood-fetal-tissue-scandal/2015/07/23/1186d368-3173-11e5-a879-213078d03dd3_story.html

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/07/14/the-real-story-behind-that-shady-planned-parenthood-video.html

Keep trying though.

NargsBrood
07-28-2015, 12:35 AM
Its not true and its completely inaccurate.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/religion/the-hidden-ethics-battle-in-the-planned-parenthood-fetal-tissue-scandal/2015/07/23/1186d368-3173-11e5-a879-213078d03dd3_story.html

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/07/14/the-real-story-behind-that-shady-planned-parenthood-video.html

Keep trying though.

Keep trying what? You didn't answer my questions.

GonzoTheGreat
07-28-2015, 03:48 AM
Oversight by whom?

That's an important part of the issue which you for some reason dodged.

DahLliA
07-28-2015, 04:37 AM
Honestly I don't see a problem.

Isn't it better that the "bodies" (I'm assuming that there is a limit to how developed the fetus can be before abortion isn't an option) are used for something useful rather than just thrown in a ditch?

Same as with organ donation IMO.

Terez
07-28-2015, 08:53 AM
What's got conservatives all up in arms is the idea that PP might have an incentive to get women to abort.

GonzoTheGreat
07-28-2015, 09:00 AM
Don't they like the free market or something? Buncha commies!

Daekyras
07-28-2015, 09:49 AM
Why is it called planned parenthood? That link seems to indicate it's planning anything but parenthood.

Terez
07-28-2015, 10:02 AM
Why is it called planned parenthood? That link seems to indicate it's planning anything but parenthood.
The bulk of their work is just that: helping women avoid unplanned pregnancies through various services including birth control. In other words, helping women have children when they want to, rather than otherwise.

Davian93
07-28-2015, 10:03 AM
The bulk of their work is just that: helping women avoid unplanned pregnancies through various services including birth control. In other words, helping women have children when they want to, rather than otherwise.

Something like 97% of their work is unrelated to abortions...and they cover a group of people that otherwise get zero medical coverage for STD screening, OB/GYN services, birth control, etc...so logically the GOP hates them and wants to shut them down because God.

NargsBrood
07-28-2015, 11:48 AM
Oversight by whom?

That's an important part of the issue which you for some reason dodged.

I haven't dodged anything. You're dodging the questions.

NargsBrood
07-28-2015, 12:15 PM
So many people so eager to respond to the original post yet so eager to dodge the original questions while embracing the opportunity to spout vitriol and dogma.

Groupthink at its finest. Wow! I am impressed.

Davian93
07-28-2015, 12:22 PM
So many people so eager to respond to the original post yet so eager to dodge the original questions while embracing the opportunity to spout vitriol and dogma.

Groupthink at its finest. Wow! I am impressed.

As opposed to your trolling attempt on the latest right wing talking point that is completely innacurate as always.

GonzoTheGreat
07-28-2015, 12:24 PM
How am I dodging it?

Would you want the Vatican to provide the oversight?
Would you leave it to the local town governments?
Would you want this oversight to be handled on a Federal level only?
Or do you want them to do it themselves, and if so, aren't they doing precisely that already?

Davian93
07-28-2015, 12:25 PM
Oversight of what exactly? They haven't broken any laws at all and this is yet another non-scandal scandal by the rightwing nutbags who are seemingly intent on making the US a theocracy based on their own twisted belief structure.

Terez
07-28-2015, 12:41 PM
As opposed to your trolling attempt on the latest right wing talking point that is completely innacurate as always.
He's not even a good troll.

NargsBrood
07-28-2015, 12:42 PM
I encourage you all to read up on Groupthink and then read up on it again.

For your convenience, I've got some easy-to-click links here:
Wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink)
PsySR (http://www.psysr.org/about/pubs_resources/groupthink%20overview.htm)
OSU (http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/theory/grpthink.html)
PsychologyToday (https://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/groupthink)
Study.com (http://study.com/academy/lesson/group-think-definition-examples.html)

You guys are exhibiting the classic behavior. Take some time out for some much needed and deep introspection.

The vitriol and bigotry are real.

The Unreasoner
07-28-2015, 01:18 PM
While I think abortion is a disgusting practice (as is the death penalty, frankly), people still will do it. People kill each other every day. I would never trust someone who killed their kid to watch mine, but I wouldn't let someone in favor of capital punishment discipline my kid either. I don't see this as being fundamentally different from organ donation (which I think should be an opt-out thing, so unless you state ahead of time that your organs need to stay with you, they're fair game), and if there are transport/storage costs that need to be covered, fine.

ETA:
You and your fucking groupthink bs...

What is oversight?

Nazbaque
07-28-2015, 01:20 PM
I encourage you all to read up on Groupthink and then read up on it again.

For your convenience, I've got some easy-to-click links here:
Wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink)
PsySR (http://www.psysr.org/about/pubs_resources/groupthink%20overview.htm)
OSU (http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/theory/grpthink.html)
PsychologyToday (https://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/groupthink)
Study.com (http://study.com/academy/lesson/group-think-definition-examples.html)

You guys are exhibiting the classic behavior. Take some time out for some much needed and deep introspection.

The vitriol and bigotry are real.

And since you have obviously designated "groupthinking" as a bad thing by default you really didn't understand the concept. You see independence is not an end in itself. It is simply a usuful and from a certain point of view even a necessary skill, but this is merely an insurance tactic. In order to get out of unhealthy social situations you need that ability, but once you've gotten out you are alone and need new relationships. This skill helps you cut off bad relationships but it doesn't help in cultivating new ones. And cultivation of relationships and indeed being a functioning member of a society of any scale requires "groupthinking" or to use its more positive synonym "empathy". But there is always an outsider who never got in in the first place and classically such a person places the blame anywhere but on their poor social skills and insists that all social harmony is just mental slavery and people who do it are dumb by default.

Davian93
07-28-2015, 01:22 PM
I encourage you all to read up on Groupthink and then read up on it again.

For your convenience, I've got some easy-to-click links here:
Wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink)
PsySR (http://www.psysr.org/about/pubs_resources/groupthink%20overview.htm)
OSU (http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/theory/grpthink.html)
PsychologyToday (https://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/groupthink)
Study.com (http://study.com/academy/lesson/group-think-definition-examples.html)

You guys are exhibiting the classic behavior. Take some time out for some much needed and deep introspection.

The vitriol and bigotry are real.

Project much?

Daekyras
07-28-2015, 04:23 PM
The bulk of their work is just that: helping women avoid unplanned pregnancies through various services including birth control. In other words, helping women have children when they want to, rather than otherwise.

I was trying to be funny!

As I've alluded to in the past the provision for this stuff in ireland is criminally poor. Your country has many bad aspects but in others it really does lead the way.

NargsBrood
07-28-2015, 04:46 PM
What is oversight?

the action of overseeing something

NargsBrood
07-28-2015, 05:01 PM
And since you have obviously designated "groupthinking" as a bad thing by default you really didn't understand the concept.

Its not my designation.

Here is from Wiki, your favorite source:
Groupthink is a psychological phenomenon that occurs within a group of people, in which the desire for harmony or conformity in the group results in an irrational or dysfunctional decision-making outcome. Group members try to minimize conflict and reach a consensus decision without critical evaluation of alternative viewpoints, by actively suppressing dissenting viewpoints, and by isolating themselves from outside influences.

Here is another from OSU:
Groupthink occurs when a homogenous highly cohesive group is so concerned with maintaining unanimity that they fail to evaluate all their alternatives and options. Groupthink members see themselves as part of an in-group working against an outgroup opposed to their goals. You can tell if a group suffers from groupthink if it:

overestimates its invulnerability or high moral stance,
collectively rationalizes the decisions it makes,
demonizes or stereotypes outgroups and their leaders,
has a culture of uniformity where individuals censor themselves and others so that the facade of group unanimty is maintained, and
contains members who take it upon themselves to protect the group leader by keeping information, theirs or other group members', from the leader.


And cultivation of relationships and indeed being a functioning member of a society of any scale requires "groupthinking" or to use its more positive synonym "empathy".
Groupthink is not synonymous with empathy. You can have a harmonious group that lacks groupthink and has plenty of empathy.

But there is always an outsider who never got in in the first place and classically such a person places the blame anywhere but on their poor social skills and insists that all social harmony is just mental slavery and people who do it are dumb by default.
And then you have the bigot insiders that are clueless

Nazbaque
07-28-2015, 05:44 PM
Its not my designation.

You have fully adopted the idea. The whole point of course is that that kind of thinking is mental laziness. Looking for a shortcut in deciding whether something is foolish or smart without any real mental effort. This is just guess work and even if in some circumstances it holds true, there is no understanding for why. That is the problem with all guess work and mental laziness. There is no actual understanding and therefore no wisdom in it.

Terez
07-28-2015, 09:11 PM
I encourage you all to read up on Groupthink and then read up on it again.
Yes, Groupthink is a terrible thing. So it trolling. So is thread-dumping a bunch of rants and not sticking around to discuss them and not responding to anyone's arguments. Why choose just one thing to get all bent up about?

Zombie Sammael
07-28-2015, 11:33 PM
So to summarise, a known troll (NargsBrood) posts something inflammatory and inaccurate. Members of the community call him out on the inaccuracy. He then attempts to derail the discussion by introducing a separate, completely different idea ("Groupthink") which has nothing to do with the first, and not bother responding to the points made against him. This is classic trolling behaviour; why is this person even still allowed to post here? Southpaw has more interesting and constructive points to make.

Terez
07-28-2015, 11:40 PM
This is classic trolling behaviour; why is this person even still allowed to post here?
Because laissez-faire.

Nazbaque
07-29-2015, 01:08 AM
why is this person even still allowed to post here?

If we ban trolls they won't be here for us to hate and then we will never fall to the Dark Side of the Force. That would be boring.

Frenzy
07-29-2015, 01:12 AM
Because laissez-faire.

But at least we have oversight. Oversight obviously solves all the problems.

GonzoTheGreat
07-29-2015, 03:48 AM
the action of overseeing something
What would have to be overseen in the PP case, and who would have to do the overseeing?

Before repeating your stock answer of "group think", please remember that I'm on the European side of the Atlantic, so I may not be quite as familiar with the intricacies of the American nanny state as the American members of the "liberal group" are.

As an aside: I consider being a liberal to be just about the bare minimum for being a decent person. Anyone to the right of a liberal is a far right extremist. If you are against liberty, then you are not good. I myself am quite a bit left of being a "mere liberal".

Daekyras
07-29-2015, 04:04 AM
But at least we have oversight. Oversight obviously solves all the problems.

Maybe we should formalise this "oversight". We could have a group of posters, ideally independent, who can look at all the posts and decide what can stay and what can't. If someone needs to be held to task this group, this "committee" if you will, could call them on it. They could compel the other person to change or retract statements.

Yes, we should call it the "oversight committee". I'm sure that's not a real thing yet.

Wow, it's like all forums should have a committee of posters like that. I wonder why they don't? ?

Zombie Sammael
07-29-2015, 07:06 AM
Maybe we should formalise this "oversight". We could have a group of posters, ideally independent, who can look at all the posts and decide what can stay and what can't. If someone needs to be held to task this group, this "committee" if you will, could call them on it. They could compel the other person to change or retract statements.

Yes, we should call it the "oversight committee". I'm sure that's not a real thing yet.

Wow, it's like all forums should have a committee of posters like that. I wonder why they don't? ?

It'd be awesome if Theoryland had something like that, but unfortunately, as far as I know, it never has in its entire history.

Davian93
07-29-2015, 07:17 AM
It'd be awesome if Theoryland had something like that, but unfortunately, as far as I know, it never has in its entire history.

Theoryland is an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive-officer-for-the-week but all decisions of that officer have to be ratified at a special bi-weekly meeeting by a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs but by a two-thirds majority in the case of more major....

Daekyras
07-29-2015, 07:43 AM
Theoryland is an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive-officer-for-the-week but all decisions of that officer have to be ratified at a special bi-weekly meeeting by a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs but by a two-thirds majority in the case of more major....

Flawless.

Kimon
07-29-2015, 09:49 AM
Flawless.

Would you prefer some some farcical aquatic ceremony?

Daekyras
07-29-2015, 10:01 AM
Would you prefer some some farcical aquatic ceremony?

Does...wait...what? I said flawless. How would that mean I want anything different??

That's a real question! I was obviously being facetious in my earlier posts but I'm really confused now!!!

Kimon
07-29-2015, 10:22 AM
Does...wait...what? I said flawless. How would that mean I want anything different??

That's a real question! I was obviously being facetious in my earlier posts but I'm really confused now!!!

Mind you, your proper response should have been be quiet. After all, you can't wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you.

Nazbaque
07-29-2015, 10:41 AM
Theoryland is an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive-officer-for-the-week but all decisions of that officer have to be ratified at a special bi-weekly meeeting by a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs but by a two-thirds majority in the case of more major....

Tam! That's your cue for ordering him to be quiet. Then we wonder who do you think you are and you say Lord of the Boards and we say we didn't vote for you and then... there was much rejoicing.

Daekyras
07-29-2015, 10:48 AM
Mind you, your proper response should have been be quiet. After all, you can't wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you.

I would never be Arthur! Galahad all the way...

Davian93
07-29-2015, 11:17 AM
The Lady of the Lake clad in the purest shimmering samite held aloft Excaliber signifying that I, Arthur, was to wield Excaliber...that is why I'm your king.

GonzoTheGreat
07-29-2015, 11:29 AM
Would you prefer some some farcical aquatic ceremony?
A wet T-shirt contest?
My answer would depend on the contestants, obviously.