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Frenzy
09-13-2015, 12:30 AM
A friend of mine over on Facebook posted a meme about Rupert Murdoch's purchase of National Geographic. I asked if there was a word that meant laughing and crying at the same time. Another friend said "voting."

i laughed and cried at that, too.

Terez
09-13-2015, 12:35 AM
My stepmom gave me her glowing Trump pitch today. My only consolation is that Dad is wary of The Donald. Of course, he favors the neurosurgeon, which would be laughable on its own if not for the comparison.

Nazbaque
09-13-2015, 04:17 AM
A friend of mine over on Facebook posted a meme about Rupert Murdoch's purchase of National Geographic. I asked if there was a word that meant laughing and crying at the same time. Another friend said "voting."

i laughed and cried at that, too.

"Having hysterics"?

GonzoTheGreat
09-13-2015, 04:34 AM
If it happens in a religious context the term is "being ecstatic". I'm not sure whether Frenzy thinks of Rupert as the Messiah or simply as a naughty boy ...

Kimon
09-13-2015, 08:27 AM
My stepmom gave me her glowing Trump pitch today. My only consolation is that Dad is wary of The Donald. Of course, he favors the neurosurgeon, which would be laughable on its own if not for the comparison.

Carson being in second amongst the Republican field is a far worse indictment of that constituency than Trump being in the lead. I think Republicans hate my alma mater so much that they have decided to lionize the two crackpots (the other obviously being Coulter) that we accidentally produced.

Southpaw2012
09-13-2015, 01:16 PM
Carson being in second amongst the Republican field is a far worse indictment of that constituency than Trump being in the lead. I think Republicans hate my alma mater so much that they have decided to lionize the two crackpots (the other obviously being Coulter) that we accidentally produced.

Racist!!!!!!! But really, compared to the Democratic candidates, the Republicans look pretty damn good. Trump is a little crazy, but many of his ideas need to be said (like Mexico to stop sending it's people north, illegally). Ben Carson is probably the most intelligent candidate in the entire field, though a little green. Now compare that to the Democrat's top two: Hillary and... Oh Lord, Bernie. Hillary is a crook, and has been for many many many years. The people who still support her are supporting her for the same reasons many people voted for Obama, who she is. People want a woman to win because liberals vote with their hearts instead of their heads, just like people wanted Obama to win based on race (which would be "racist" if people said they wanted a candidate to win because they were white). I'm all for a woman being president, if her ideas work and she isn't a part of the most crooked political family to come around in a long time, such as the Clintons. Bernie is a nut job Socialist, though many professors and young people support that because it has been their campaign for a long time to destroy the successful, and the hard working people, in favor of making everyone "equal," aka their idea of equal which doesn't exist and can never exist. I actually like Carson. Even though he's green, he wouldn't divide the country like Obama has because he wants to fix race relations, not destroy them as Obama has done with his support for the looting and destruction that has occurred. Also, even though Carson is green, he could get a very strong administration around him to where he would be able to learn fast while relying on people with more political experience. I guess I forgot to put Bush in the liberal category because that's how I'd consider him in many ways, and disagree just as strongly.

Terez
09-13-2015, 01:35 PM
Carson being in second amongst the Republican field is a far worse indictment of that constituency than Trump being in the lead.
How so? Obviously both are unqualified to be president, but I can't see how Carson is supposed to be worse than Trump.

Kimon
09-13-2015, 02:06 PM
Racist!!!!!!! But really, compared to the Democratic candidates, the Republicans look pretty damn good. Trump is a little crazy, but many of his ideas need to be said (like Mexico to stop sending it's people north, illegally). Ben Carson is probably the most intelligent candidate in the entire field, though a little green. Now compare that to the Democrat's top two: Hillary and... Oh Lord, Bernie. Hillary is a crook, and has been for many many many years. The people who still support her are supporting her for the same reasons many people voted for Obama, who she is. People want a woman to win because liberals vote with their hearts instead of their heads, just like people wanted Obama to win based on race (which would be "racist" if people said they wanted a candidate to win because they were white). I'm all for a woman being president, if her ideas work and she isn't a part of the most crooked political family to come around in a long time, such as the Clintons. Bernie is a nut job Socialist, though many professors and young people support that because it has been their campaign for a long time to destroy the successful, and the hard working people, in favor of making everyone "equal," aka their idea of equal which doesn't exist and can never exist. I actually like Carson. Even though he's green, he wouldn't divide the country like Obama has because he wants to fix race relations, not destroy them as Obama has done with his support for the looting and destruction that has occurred. Also, even though Carson is green, he could get a very strong administration around him to where he would be able to learn fast while relying on people with more political experience. I guess I forgot to put Bush in the liberal category because that's how I'd consider him in many ways, and disagree just as strongly.

Carson has zero public policy experience, zero legal experience. He's a doctor, a doctor who doesn't even believe in evolution. Not believing in evolution is even worse than refusing to believe in climate change (which he denies), or thinking that a flat tax is a good idea (another foolish idea that he supports). Don't confuse being a skilled neurosurgeon with an understanding of public policy or statesmanship. Trump isn't much better on those fronts, but at least he's charismatic. The only Republican in that field that impresses me, or at least doesn't strike me as dangerously incompetent, at all is Kasich.

As for the Dems, I will admit, that I am not excited about Hillary. She's still a far better, and safer, choice than any of the Republicans. Even Kasich. But she isn't as charismatic as her husband, and I find both her Iraq War vote and her decision to use a private email as Sec. of State both to have been indictments of her judgment. The former is why I voted for Obama instead in the primary back in '08, the latter is why I'll probably vote for either Biden (if he runs) or Sanders in the primary this time. Still can't really get excited about either of them. I like Bernie, but his age concerns me, as does the fact that he'll get trounced in the South, and probably, and even more importantly, also in Ohio and Pennsylvania. Dems can't win without those two states. I wish Elizabeth Warren was running. Or Kirsten Gillibrand. Or just anyone who I had a bit more confidence could win against that field of demagogues and warmongering fools.

Kimon
09-13-2015, 02:22 PM
How so? Obviously both are unqualified to be president, but I can't see how Carson is supposed to be worse than Trump.

The response to Southpaw should probably explain my concerns, but I question Carson's judgment far more than Trump's. Trump is a jerk and a demagogue, but he doesn't strike me as a fool. Though I do find it odd that the Republicans would overlook the fact that he is basically just a centrist democrat using nativist demagoguery to hoodwink them. I still think that he was initially running just on the assumption that it would be some free publicity to promote himself. He has just been so much more charismatic than the rest of their field that it has been impossible for the rest to not be lost in his wake. He'd still be less a disaster than the rest of that field however. He's essentially just another plutocrat. Lacking in experience of actual governance and policy-making in comparison say to Romney, but more charismatic. The plutocrats however can be reasoned with. It's the bible-thumpers that terrify me.

Terez
09-13-2015, 03:28 PM
I would not be surprised if Trump is running for no other reason than to aid Hillary's campaign.

Terez
09-13-2015, 04:09 PM
Carson has zero public policy experience, zero legal experience. He's a doctor, a doctor who doesn't even believe in evolution. Not believing in evolution is even worse than refusing to believe in climate change (which he denies), or thinking that a flat tax is a good idea (another foolish idea that he supports). Don't confuse being a skilled neurosurgeon with an understanding of public policy or statesmanship. Trump isn't much better on those fronts, but at least he's charismatic.
1) Charisma is overrated, and 2) He's not nearly as charismatic as he used to be. He's a joke these days, in so many ways.

The only Republican in that field that impresses me, or at least doesn't strike me as dangerously incompetent, at all is Kasich.
I see Rubio as being less dangerous than Kasich, who tends to be very surface-only and single-minded in his ambition, not unlike Hillary. Both he and Rubio have tended towards moderation in certain circumstances. Rubio was under more pressure and caved further, but he still appears to be a rather more substantial person than Kasich.

As for the Dems, I will admit, that I am not excited about Hillary. She's still a far better, and safer, choice than any of the Republicans. Even Kasich. But she isn't as charismatic as her husband...
Charisma again. It's a double-edged sword, you know. The Clinton charisma has led progressives into a number of traps, most of which we (in general) still don't realize we're caught in.

...I find both her Iraq War vote and her decision to use a private email as Sec. of State both to have been indictments of her judgment. The former is why I voted for Obama instead in the primary back in '08...
Agreed, though I didn't actually vote that year because I wasn't convinced the Mississippi primary was worth all that much, and I thought I was registered as a Republican (we actually have open primaries in MS, though you have to choose a table each time). I also knew by then that Mississippi would definitely go to Obama without me; the Democratic party in MS is something like 90% black these days. In 2012 I voted in the Republican primary for Ron Paul, just for the hell of it.

I remember trying to talk Callandor into going for Obama early in the 2008 primary season, when he still favored John Edwards. He wanted Russ Feingold to run. Edwards was his compromise...before the scandals broke, though there were already indications of his character which I made sure to point out. I have forgotten the details, except that he had a history of shamelessly exploiting people as a trial attorney, both in the huge cut he took of his clients' winnings and in his tendency to use his work to build himself up as a charitable person in politics.

...the latter is why I'll probably vote for either Biden (if he runs) or Sanders in the primary this time.
I'd vote for Hillary over Biden, honestly. I think Biden is a good guy, but his approach to public relations is too immature, and he's also shown bad judgement in a number of situations. Rewatch, if you must, the Biden-Ryan debate. One could certainly argue that he won that debate, but I don't like the way he won it, and part of the perception that he did win it is the belief that his policy positions were superior.

Still can't really get excited about either of them. I like Bernie, but his age concerns me, as does the fact that he'll get trounced in the South, and probably, and even more importantly, also in Ohio and Pennsylvania.
I am not entirely sure he'll get trounced in the South. It's early yet. The black bloc is not as immutable as it sometimes seems. I don't think he's particularly presidential, and he takes "single-minded" to an extreme (though he is single-minded from a place of idealism rather than ambition) but I trust his judgment. And maybe his candidacy will teach us something about democratic socialism. We've been wallowing in red-scare ignorance for a long time.

I wish Elizabeth Warren was running.
Agreed.

I question Carson's judgment far more than Trump's. Trump is a jerk and a demagogue, but he doesn't strike me as a fool.
It's not a black-and-white thing, you know. One can have decent judgment most of the time and still do incredibly foolish things. Trump would reduce the presidency itself to a joke. I realize other candidates (like Carson) aren't far behind him in that regard, but this is another area where charisma cuts both ways. His charisma, such as it is, guarantees that every bit of buffoonery he spouts will be repeated over and over again in media across the globe.

Davian93
09-13-2015, 06:05 PM
My stepmom gave me her glowing Trump pitch today. My only consolation is that Dad is wary of The Donald. Of course, he favors the neurosurgeon, which would be laughable on its own if not for the comparison.

I don't want to live on this planet anymore.


Maybe Bernie will shock us all and win. It'd be the greatest thing to happen to this country since FDR or maybe even Teddy Roosevelt.

Davian93
09-13-2015, 06:09 PM
Not to be that guy but there is zero real chance of the GOP nominating a black guy. Regardless of what polls show 5 months out from Iowa, their racist base will NEVER actually pull the lever for Carson. Trump won't win either...he's a joke. It'll be Jeb in the end. All the rest of this is just noise.

And it'll likely be Clinton for the Dems unless Biden shocks us all and announces his candidacy in the next couple weeks.

And Clinton will crush Jeb...hell, his own Mom thinks he shouldn't run. And another Bush administration isn't gonna happen. Sorry but there is zero difference between Jeb and Dubya. All the exact same advisors as Dubya and Daddy.

Bernie is awesome, Southpaw so go fuck yourself. He's pretty much the only guy in Congress that cares about the middle and lower class as well as veterans. He's a brilliant man and at least we have living proof that Social Democracy works in practice unlike the joke that is supply side economics and Neo Conservatism.

Frenzy
09-13-2015, 11:27 PM
Trump is a little crazy, but many of his ideas need to be said (like Mexico to stop sending it's people north, illegally)

...

Bernie is a nut job

Bernie is a little crazy, but many of his ideas need to be said (like supporting our veterans, shoring up infrastructure, social equality)

Trump is a nut job

GonzoTheGreat
09-14-2015, 04:05 AM
Trump is a little crazy, but many of his ideas need to be said (like Mexico to stop sending it's people north, illegally).
Two questions I have for you about this, one of which I've asked of other right wing extremists too, who then failed to address it let alone answer it:

1. In what way is Mexico "sending it's people north" (should be "its", by the way)?
A lot of those people do come, that much is clear. But do you, does Trump, have actual evidence of the Mexican government giving official orders to those people to go to the USA? If not, then claim that Mexico is sending them north is just a lie.

2. If Mexico is indeed officially ordering them to go to your country, then in what way is it illegal?
It may be against US law when they (try to) enter, but the sending itself would seem to be an internal matter for Mexico. If that is done in accordance to Mexican law, then it would be legal, not illegal.

So, can you explain these two points, or are you just a liar?

Davian93
09-14-2015, 07:23 AM
Two questions I have for you about this, one of which I've asked of other right wing extremists too, who then failed to address it let alone answer it:

1. In what way is Mexico "sending it's people north" (should be "its", by the way)?
A lot of those people do come, that much is clear. But do you, does Trump, have actual evidence of the Mexican government giving official orders to those people to go to the USA? If not, then claim that Mexico is sending them north is just a lie.

2. If Mexico is indeed officially ordering them to go to your country, then in what way is it illegal?
It may be against US law when they (try to) enter, but the sending itself would seem to be an internal matter for Mexico. If that is done in accordance to Mexican law, then it would be legal, not illegal.

So, can you explain these two points, or are you just a liar?

Its about as accurate as the other GOP talking point that all brown people are "Mexican" instead of their respective nationalities (Costa Rican, Guatamalan, Colombian, etc). They also tend to think Puerto Rico is a part of Mexico too and that "All Latinos are the same so if we pimp out a Cuban like Marco Rubio, they'll love us!!!" This is the same line of thinking that led to them pimping out Sarah Palin in 2008 because Hillary was a woman and so is Sarah so women are dumb and will vote for any woman, right?

Right?

If anything, I would say that our prohibition movement banning drugs and our massive appetite for drugs as a nation has done far more damage to Mexico and Latin America than refugees fleeing that brutal violence in search of a safer home has done to our country. But clearly its on the refugees and not our own hypocrisy as a nation. Because that would require looking at ourselves in a critical light and if there's one thing Americans really hate, its that. An offshoot of the American Exceptionalism mentality no doubt.

Terez
09-14-2015, 02:24 PM
Not to be that guy but there is zero real chance of the GOP nominating a black guy. Regardless of what polls show 5 months out from Iowa, their racist base will NEVER actually pull the lever for Carson.
A lot of them are like my dad, i.e. racist, but wanting to vote for a black guy (regardless of his qualifications) to prove they're not racist. I assure you, I'm not confused about my dad being racist.

Davian93
09-14-2015, 02:37 PM
A lot of them are like my dad, i.e. racist, but wanting to vote for a black guy (regardless of his qualifications) to prove they're not racist. I assure you, I'm not confused about my dad being racist.

The "See, I have a black friend" Vote?

Kimon
09-14-2015, 03:42 PM
Not to be that guy but there is zero real chance of the GOP nominating a black guy. Regardless of what polls show 5 months out from Iowa, their racist base will NEVER actually pull the lever for Carson. Trump won't win either...he's a joke.


It is a legitimate caveat, heck we even have a phrase to describe the phenomenon - the Bradley Effect. It will be interesting to see if Carson really finishes second in either Iowa or New Hampshire. My guess would be not, though the difference between second and fifth place might be negligible due to the size of the field. It's also far more difficult now for the party to take some command over the process and consolidate money around one mostly hand-picked, and most viable candidate, as a single wealthy patron combined with those ridiculous super pacs can keep otherwise superfluous candidates alive for far longer than they should. But for that the money would have all likely already been funneled over to one of the three most viable - Bush, Kasich, or Rubio - asphyxiating the less-moneyed kooks (like Carson), and at least winnowing the field enough to more efficiently combat Trump. Iowa likely will go for one of the nuts. It always does. But if one of those three doesn't win New Hampshire, the Republicans likely nominate Trump, or whichever crackpot (maybe even Santorum, he won Iowa last time) wins Iowa.

It'll be Jeb in the end. All the rest of this is just noise.

That certainly seemed the conventional wisdom when he entered the field, but his window may have already closed. He may just not be bombastic enough, or callous enough, for the current Republican milieu. That's why Trump originally focused his rhetoric on Bush. But Bush has stagnated. Perhaps he will re-emerge from the chaos of this field, but this feels somewhat similar to the Perry situation from the last cycle. Bush hasn't imploded in the same way Perry did. Perry was clearly too incompetent to be taken seriously, even by the Republicans. Jeb also seems to have a fatal flaw, perhaps three - he's boring, his brother was a crappy president, and his connection to his father has an even more unfortunate problem - the dems mostly liked the Elder Bush.

Davian93
09-14-2015, 08:10 PM
Jeb feels like Romney did...they don't really like him but he can stick around long enough for the pretenders to drop out and the rest of the vote is so fractured he might slide through.

I just can't see Trump or Carson making it to the finish line.

Terez
09-15-2015, 01:26 AM
It is a legitimate caveat, heck we even have a phrase to describe the phenomenon - the Bradley Effect.
I had forgotten about that. We never got a chance to test it out with the GOP primary pool since Cain quit before Iowa. Assuming my dad is a Bradley voter, I wonder who he will vote for. I think he's honestly wary of Trump. He favored Santorum in 2012 so maybe he'll lean that way again if Santorum makes it to March.

I asked Dad and stepmom how they felt about Carly Fiorina and neither of them knew who she was. I found that surprising. They told me last time I visited that they hadn't been watching Fox as much, but it's hard to imagine that household without Fox on all the time. Dad didn't watch the first debate, either one, but we had a text conversation about it and Dad told me he regretted not watching it and not being able to have an intelligent conversation about the candidates. He promised he was going to watch the next one. (He will have to DVR it since it conflicts with church.)

It will be interesting to see if Carson really finishes second in either Iowa or New Hampshire. My guess would be not, though the difference between second and fifth place might be negligible due to the size of the field. It's also far more difficult now for the party to take some command over the process and consolidate money around one mostly hand-picked, and most viable candidate, as a single wealthy patron combined with those ridiculous super pacs can keep otherwise superfluous candidates alive for far longer than they should. But for that the money would have all likely already been funneled over to one of the three most viable - Bush, Kasich, or Rubio - asphyxiating the less-moneyed kooks (like Carson), and at least winnowing the field enough to more efficiently combat Trump. Iowa likely will go for one of the nuts. It always does. But if one of those three doesn't win New Hampshire, the Republicans likely nominate Trump, or whichever crackpot (maybe even Santorum, he won Iowa last time) wins Iowa.
I am starting to think an outright win is unlikely for Trump, unless they unite behind a solid opposition candidate very early on in the process, i.e. no later than South Carolina. That's their only chance (and Trump's only chance). Otherwise Trump will pull a plurality and they'll have a brokered convention. And it's highly unlikely Trump would walk out of a brokered convention the winner, unless the party really fears the backlash. Even then it's iffy.

It's also possible that Trump's star will fade, but it's hard to see what could make that happen since literally nothing he says has any measurable negative effect on his support.

Davian93
09-15-2015, 07:24 AM
Well, once they start actually attacking him (they really haven't yet), he'll sink fast.

Most of his actual views are pretty liberal other than the fascist red meat anti-immigration stuff. And then there's his massive connections to organized crime, corruption, multiple bankruptcies, etc. There's a TON of dirt out there on him once they start in.

Besides, he'd never win a brokered convention...the party leaders wouldn't allow it. Hopefully he'd go in with a small lead, lose the Convention and then run as a third party candidate so we can get a reverse of the 1984 map this time with a TON of blue states instead of all red.

GonzoTheGreat
09-15-2015, 09:20 AM
Maybe you'll end up with a Clinton-Trump ticket opposed by Bush-Santorum. Wouldn't that be fun?

Ozymandias
09-15-2015, 05:05 PM
I had a rather better post than this that apparently didn't make it through teh interwebz, so I'll post the short and sweet version.

Trump is not a nut job, nor is he an idiot. He never wanted to be President (evidenced by his total lack of a campaign staff). He is nothing short of the most brilliant brand marketer of his generation (something I'd have said 6 months ago and only believe more firmly now) and the entire purpose of his "campaign" was to generate attention internationally, where the bulk of his licensing dollars come from these days (he's tapped out in the US and doesn't do any real development either). If looked at in this light, his entire campaign takes on a different tone (well, still a racist and xenophobic tone, but one that makes more sense). He went as far to the right on hot button issues as he possibly could in order to generate headlines, and bucked the party line as often as possible in order to stay in that headline. His name is in the papers. He gets exposure. It costs him almost nothing except the entirely qualitative value of his name, which is a made-up value determination anyway.

Davian93
09-15-2015, 06:48 PM
I had a rather better post than this that apparently didn't make it through teh interwebz, so I'll post the short and sweet version.

Trump is not a nut job, nor is he an idiot. He never wanted to be President (evidenced by his total lack of a campaign staff). He is nothing short of the most brilliant brand marketer of his generation (something I'd have said 6 months ago and only believe more firmly now) and the entire purpose of his "campaign" was to generate attention internationally, where the bulk of his licensing dollars come from these days (he's tapped out in the US and doesn't do any real development either). If looked at in this light, his entire campaign takes on a different tone (well, still a racist and xenophobic tone, but one that makes more sense). He went as far to the right on hot button issues as he possibly could in order to generate headlines, and bucked the party line as often as possible in order to stay in that headline. His name is in the papers. He gets exposure. It costs him almost nothing except the entirely qualitative value of his name, which is a made-up value determination anyway.

I almost think he's a false flag operation by Hillary...which would be brilliant.

Terez
09-15-2015, 07:23 PM
I almost think he's a false flag operation by Hillary...which would be brilliant.
It's well-known by now that Bill encouraged Trump to run. And why wouldn't he?

Aside: I am amused by the way Bill is seen as directing Hillary's campaign from behind the scenes. When he was President, everyone was convinced Hillary was running things behind the scenes.

Ozymandias
09-15-2015, 07:32 PM
I almost think he's a false flag operation by Hillary...which would be brilliant.

The second best almost-plausible double cross since Eli sabotaged Peyton Manning's neck in 2011 on his way to winning the Super Bowl in Indianapolis.