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Figbiscuit
09-24-2015, 05:02 AM
Mostly I just thought I'd say that.

This is my first re-read of any kind since the last book was released, possibly the last two books. As in, I read the last two books as they were released but didn't read anything previous at that time.

It's also been a long, a long long time, since I read the early books, quite often I just picked the series up at a later point to refresh my memory before a new book came out.

I had lots of comments about things I've picked up on this time around - I'm currently approaching the end of TGH - which I'd never really either noticed or understood the significance of before, no matter how many times I read the books. I've forgotten most of them now. I will try make an effort to notice and remember to come and mention them, possibly. None of it is ground breaking of course but if some conversation comes out of it that will be nice.

And that's all I have to say about that. Have a nice day :cool:

GonzoTheGreat
09-24-2015, 05:15 AM
I had lots of comments about things I've picked up on this time around - I'm currently approaching the end of TGH - which I'd never really either noticed or understood the significance of before, no matter how many times I read the books. I've forgotten most of them now. I will try make an effort to notice and remember to come and mention them, possibly. None of it is ground breaking of course but if some conversation comes out of it that will be nice.
Once upon a time, a long long time ago, in a country far away from here, someone invented writing. Maybe you can find someone to teach you.

Weiramon
09-24-2015, 11:08 AM
Burn my soul, I can't decide whether reading and writing is beneath a Lord and best left to peasants such as yourselves.





Or whether it is above your station and the sole purview of your betters.

Figbiscuit
09-24-2015, 12:41 PM
Once upon a time, a long long time ago, in a country far away from here, someone invented writing. Maybe you can find someone to teach you.

Maybe...

Burn my soul, I can't decide whether reading and writing is beneath a Lord and best left to peasants such as yourselves.


Or whether it is above your station and the sole purview of your betters.

Or both.

I can't believe I missed so many obvious signs about Ingtar

Khoram
10-04-2015, 03:51 PM
I can't believe I missed so many obvious signs about Ingtar

This. I started a reread back in June, and I'm only on tFoH. It's crazy how much you realize you miss when you first read the books, and even after years of not reading the earlier books.

Also, I can't believe I missed this thread. XD

Nazbaque
10-04-2015, 08:50 PM
Ingtar was a shock to me too the first time around. I think that was where WoT stopped being black and white for me and I could see the full spectrum of colour. Still one of my favourite characters.

Khoram
10-04-2015, 09:26 PM
I still get chills when Rand says that prayer for him before he heads off after the Seanchan.

Figbiscuit
10-05-2015, 05:17 AM
I still get chills when Rand says that prayer for him before he heads off after the Seanchan.

Yep, I got that too, much more so this time.

Also Verin clearly lied about Moiraine sending her off after the boys, that is smackingly obvious this time around. There were so many clues to so many things, I'm looking forward to it being intuitively obvious about Graendal :rolleyes:

I've just started The Shadow Rising. I always feel the end of TDR is a little rushed, or possibly I read it quickly because it's so fast paced, but even this time it didn't settle well with me about it being Ishamael. That particular killing always feels a little of a cop-out.

Also, Maiden's Kiss - is it really just kissing...?

Davian93
10-05-2015, 07:40 AM
I've probably reread Books 1-7 20-30 times all the way and then the rest probably a dozen to a half dozen times from Book 8 being a dozen to the Sanderson books being maybe 2-3 (so less than a half dozen I guess) and aMoL just once...cant motivate myself to do a reread.

The point of that longwinded sentence was to preface that even with that many rereadings (and a really good memory for things), I still catch things I missed before while rereading.

I still enjoy tEotW the most of all his books...even though its probably not as good as the peak of Books 4-5-6, I just love the writing and all the seeds he plants in that book that you get to see come to fruition over the next 25 years of his writing.

I also still get really sad when I think about all that as it makes me really miss RJ.

Davian93
10-05-2015, 07:43 AM
I still get chills when Rand says that prayer for him before he heads off after the Seanchan.

THIS.

What a brilliant scene by RJ. Its one of my top 5 for TGH...my favorite scene is probably Rand's meeting with the Amyrlin I think. And TGH was written well before the Wonder Girls got super annoying so all the Tower scenes are pretty good too.

Khoram
10-05-2015, 08:39 AM
I must say, once they take off on their own, it gets quite laborious to read Nynaeve and Elayne's scenes. I would much rather read from the the ta'veren's povs. It just gets so tedious at this point. Event I don't mind as much right now, because I at least like to read the parts with the Aiel. Although she still annoys me.

Figbiscuit
10-12-2015, 09:26 AM
Yes, Egwene is annoying me more this time around, I blame you lot for all the Eg-bashing that went on :eek:

Now Perrin has his hammer it seems like an awfully long time away before that particular plot is resolved.

Anyone else ever read the Rand in Rhuidean scenes in reverse order?

Terez
10-12-2015, 10:37 AM
Anyone else ever read the Rand in Rhuidean scenes in reverse order?
Yup. I had to in order to make a rough timeline of the Aiel journey to the Waste.

Davian93
10-12-2015, 08:38 PM
Yup. I had to in order to make a rough timeline of the Aiel journey to the Waste.

I did it a couple times way, way back in the day just to do it chronologically...makes an interesting read to say the least. That sequence is one of my favorite in all the books to e honest.

connabard
10-13-2015, 10:47 AM
I must say, once they take off on their own, it gets quite laborious to read Nynaeve and Elayne's scenes. I would much rather read from the the ta'veren's povs. It just gets so tedious at this point. Event I don't mind as much right now, because I at least like to read the parts with the Aiel. Although she still annoys me.

I just find that they seem to get nearly nothing accomplished? I haven't re-read since AMoL's release, and I do have bias towards the wonderboys over the wondergirls so I could be misremembering things, but Mat and Rand seem to get somewhere every book (Perrin the exception, though I relate to his character the most so I still enjoy his more... laborious chapters)

I find that Elayne and Nynaeve don't really do much. Though I am planning to re-read soon and perhaps my perception will change... I can say Nynaeve is one of my favourite characters, her cognitive dissonance is absolutely hilarious

Figbiscuit
10-15-2015, 05:38 AM
I think I've previously underrated TSR as a book, the tone definitely appears to change - everyone suddenly gets a lot more strained and harder and less trusting, I suppose which is a natural reaction to the appearance of the Dragon. I never fail to be amazed by RJ's nuances of text, he changes moods so subtly you don't even realise it's happened until after the fact.

Then with Lanfear and Asmodean arriving - I wonder if anyone really picked up on that first time around. Now, of course, I can see the clues, but I was probably 16 or 17 when I first read this book, reading it simply as a straight story, in no way did I see the hidden layers.

As for the wondergirls, Elayne and Nynaeve are on their way to Tanchico. I had forgotten that the Tanchico scenes open with Egeanin, I am curious to see whether a lot of the point of all that bit is to fill more for back story on the Black Ajah, Moghedian and the Seanchan.

Nazbaque
10-15-2015, 08:13 AM
I was suspicious of the alter ego characters, but Forsaken in disguise was just one of my theories. "High ranking darkfriends" didn't really automatically jump to "disguised Forsaken" in my mind yet and at that point the only introduced and living ones were Lanfear, Rahvin and Sammael. Four were already dead, we knew that there were a total of thirteen and we didn't know that they could be resurected. Mesaana, Semirhage, Graendal, Moghedien, Demandred and Asmodean were still unknowns at that point. I suspected Lanfear being one, but Asmodean didn't fit in at all with what I thought was going on and so I was thrown off the scent.

Figbiscuit
10-19-2015, 09:49 AM
I don't know how I managed miss the Lanfear / Keille connection because it's really face smackingly obvious.

I had another observation which I've forgotten now. I did say this thread wasn't going to be anything ground breaking...

Nazbaque
10-19-2015, 11:09 AM
I don't know how I managed miss the Lanfear / Keille connection because it's really face smackingly obvious.

Not really considering that you hadn't yet been exposed to RJ's patterns for long enough. Around LOC or ACOS would be enough, but not TSR.

Rand al'Fain
10-19-2015, 06:51 PM
Not really considering that you hadn't yet been exposed to RJ's patterns for long enough. Around LOC or ACOS would be enough, but not TSR.

Yeah, TSR when things are really beginning to get going.

Khoram
10-19-2015, 10:31 PM
Still don't understand how I missed Asmodean/Jasin Natael in TSR.

GonzoTheGreat
10-20-2015, 04:26 AM
Possibly in the same way that you missed Taimandred: you thought it was a red herring.

Edited to add:
Also, the BWB came out after TSR did, so it may be that you didn't have the information about Asmodean needed to make the link as obvious to you as it is now.

Weiramon
10-20-2015, 11:40 AM
Bah, you peasants are always seeing shadows where there are none.

Ill-informed louts, scratching dragon fangs on the doors of those you envy.

Next you will suggest some peddler was a Cho . . . Forsaken in disguise, misleading that Andoran prince-of-the-sword-in-waiting that his Queen was dead at the hands of the Lord Dragon.

rand
10-21-2015, 01:30 AM
Next you will suggest some peddler was a Cho . . . Forsaken in disguise, misleading that Andoran prince-of-the-sword-in-waiting that his Queen was dead at the hands of the Lord Dragon.
Wait, is this something from the encyclopedia? RJ said that guy was just a peddler...but since you have that as your sig, I'm assuming you know that lol.

Figbiscuit
10-26-2015, 05:29 AM
Yeah, TSR when things are really beginning to get going.

Just finished it. It's definitely my new current favourite.

Sukoto
10-31-2015, 12:36 AM
I'm re-reading the series backwards right now (last book to first) and I'm on aCOS. One thing I didn't pick up before was that Mat actually met Noal/Jain for the first time in front of the palace where Jaichim Carridin was staying in Ebou Dar, where Mat follows Lady Shiaine. I never made the connection before, but the description of the 'old man' is quite unmistakable now that I read it again.

Figbiscuit
11-09-2015, 08:36 AM
I'm re-reading the series backwards right now (last book to first) and I'm on aCOS. One thing I didn't pick up before was that Mat actually met Noal/Jain for the first time in front of the palace where Jaichim Carridin was staying in Ebou Dar, where Mat follows Lady Shiaine. I never made the connection before, but the description of the 'old man' is quite unmistakable now that I read it again.

That's definitely a different way of doing it. What are you getting from it?

Nynaeve and Elayne definitely don't seem to be achieving much, as is. There was a lot of back story accomplished, we learned about Moghedien and the sad rings, Birgitte was ripped out of TAR, Liandrin was dealt with finally, other than that there just seems to have been a fair bit of wandering around the world, I'm finding the whole menagerie thing a little tedious now (and I'm quite distracted by trying to see if Valan Luca really IS the dragon reborn after all).

Just arrived in Ghealdan now, so about to start catching up with the lovely Masema.

I stick by my original observation that this whole plot line was merely to fill in an awful lot of back story using N&E to carry it along.

GonzoTheGreat
11-09-2015, 09:09 AM
I suspect that in one of the other scenes we didn't see (because RJ did not get around to writing it) Valan Luca was killed by Demandred, who had mistakenly thought he was the DR. A reversal of the "Roedran is Demandred" thing which had Rand a bit paranoid.

Daekyras
11-09-2015, 10:07 AM
Just finished it. It's definitely my new current favourite.

And the best book to come too. Dammit the first 6 books in this series are just sooooo good.

Terez
11-09-2015, 10:52 AM
Just finished it. It's definitely my new current favourite.
It has been my favorite for a long time, and that has stood the test of time and several rereads. It's the book where all of the main characters really begin to come into their own, and they do it through some of the most interesting and creative trials. The columns in Rhuidean for Rand, the doorways in Tear and Rhuidean for Mat, the Two Rivers for Perrin, Tel'aran'rhiod for Egwene, Moghedien for Nynaeve, veils for Elayne, romance and character history for Moiraine and Thom, chaos in the Tower for Min, Galad and Gawyn, a complex destiny for Aviendha, and the book has 3 distinct climaxes, all of them pretty epic.

Someone did a game on the MySpace WoT group about 8-9 years ago where everyone votes on their favorite book and books are eliminated one at a time. It was probably the most involved contest I've ever seen on that particular topic. I seem to remember recruiting Theorylanders to vote, including Sarevok. Anyway, it came down to LOC and TSR. LOC tends to be popular among males in particular because of the savagery and the comeuppance for the Aes Sedai at Dumai's Wells. And it was overall a good book. I just think TSR is really hard to beat.

Ivhon
11-09-2015, 02:31 PM
/pokes head in

TSR has always been my favorite. Also starting a very slow re-read now that I have the e-book.

/hides again

Figbiscuit
12-03-2015, 06:28 AM
Just finished Lord of Chaos. All Dumai's Wells'd up at the moment.

I'd forgotten how much I enjoyed the second three books, the action and the pace, Rand's degeneration into madness, Egwene's time with the Aiel and then becoming Amyrlin, so much happens! Slightly apprehensive of the wandering around in the snow which is looming for Perrin and the general slow down in pace overall but I'm approaching it with an open mind.

Stupid question of the day - Mazrim Taim was turned wasn't he?

Also, I noticed Graendal said outright that Asmodean was dead, I guess that's the proof that it was her as she has no reason to know definitively? Demandred knows as the GL told him but he hasn't passed that along as far as I know?

GonzoTheGreat
12-03-2015, 07:21 AM
Stupid question of the day - Mazrim Taim was turned wasn't he?That seems to qualify.
No, he wasn't turned. All it took was saving him from the AS, and then making him an offer he couldn't refuse. Based on what we know, he likely was not have too inclined to refuse anyway.

Also, I noticed Graendal said outright that Asmodean was dead, I guess that's the proof that it was her as she has no reason to know definitively? Demandred knows as the GL told him but he hasn't passed that along as far as I know?
We do not really know how much he had passed on and how much Graendal had found out through spying, of course. But it is at least a good red herring, and quite probably an actual clue.
Seeing as how she actually did it, the "clue" option seems more probably.

fionwe1987
12-03-2015, 12:37 PM
Also, I noticed Graendal said outright that Asmodean was dead, I guess that's the proof that it was her as she has no reason to know definitively? Demandred knows as the GL told him but he hasn't passed that along as far as I know?

But Graendal also says she made a trip to Shayol Ghul. So at that stage we could also have concluded the Dark One told her as he told Demandred.

Davian93
12-03-2015, 06:17 PM
It has been my favorite for a long time, and that has stood the test of time and several rereads. It's the book where all of the main characters really begin to come into their own, and they do it through some of the most interesting and creative trials. The columns in Rhuidean for Rand, the doorways in Tear and Rhuidean for Mat, the Two Rivers for Perrin, Tel'aran'rhiod for Egwene, Moghedien for Nynaeve, veils for Elayne, romance and character history for Moiraine and Thom, chaos in the Tower for Min, Galad and Gawyn, a complex destiny for Aviendha, and the book has 3 distinct climaxes, all of them pretty epic.

Someone did a game on the MySpace WoT group about 8-9 years ago where everyone votes on their favorite book and books are eliminated one at a time. It was probably the most involved contest I've ever seen on that particular topic. I seem to remember recruiting Theorylanders to vote, including Sarevok. Anyway, it came down to LOC and TSR. LOC tends to be popular among males in particular because of the savagery and the comeuppance for the Aes Sedai at Dumai's Wells. And it was overall a good book. I just think TSR is really hard to beat.

The columns in Rhuidean are probably the best overall scene in all the books to me. Just so well done.

And yeah, TSR is pretty much the best book IMHO too. The 4-5-6 trilogy is where the entire series peaks and its a slow decline through 7 & 8 to the nadir that is 9-10-11 and the slight rebound under Brandon to finish it off.

I'm rereading aMoL for the first time since my initial read and its actually better than I remember...other than the at times very jarring voices for certain characters (Egwene and Mat in particular and Jesus Rand to a lesser extent) the action scenes really play to Brandon's strengths. Though he does go a bit too far into his Mighty Morphin Power Rangers routine at times (lava gateway, a tempest of this and a tempest of that, etc).

But still its decent at least.

fionwe1987
12-03-2015, 08:09 PM
I dunno if I would group 11 with 9-10. While not as good as 4-5-6, it is way better than 8-9-10, IMO.

As for aMoL... with respect to the fight scenes, I actually don't think he did enough with the Power. The OP is a broad set of abilities, and there should have been innovation all over due to the pressures of war. Instead, he picked one thing, Gateways, and then over-innovated with it. That's more like what he does with his own books, but not very WoT.

Terez
12-03-2015, 08:10 PM
'Ware the quarantine y'all.

Daekyras
12-03-2015, 09:16 PM
'Ware the quarantine y'all.

That doesn't extend to any discussion on the Brandon books does it?

I thought it was only for the blind hate/support type stuff and Egwene bashing?

But not gawyn bashing. We can all indulge in that :)

And dav, the nadir of the series is in book 12. "Elaborate aliases and back stories". Urgh!

Terez
12-03-2015, 10:00 PM
That doesn't extend to any discussion on the Brandon books does it?

I thought it was only for the blind hate/support type stuff and Egwene bashing?
The 'ware is for prolonged discussions. The point of the quarantine is to make sure that the discussion doesn't overtake every thread on the forum. It's amazing how quickly that can happen; Brandon and Egwene are just the main two topics that tend to spill over into everything.

Davian93
12-04-2015, 06:53 PM
'Ware the quarantine y'all.

Kinda makes it hard to discuss anything in the later books you know...and getting talked down to about it gets old too.


Edit: FWIW, my comment wasn't bashing Egwene, it was just noting that Brandon seemed to have trouble writing her is all. Same with Mat.

Daekyras
12-04-2015, 07:27 PM
Edit: FWIW, my comment wasn't bashing Egwene, it was just noting that Brandon seemed to have trouble writing her is all. Same with Mat.

I don't mind his Egwene. She became a little Mary sue in tGS and ToM but was not the worst. Mat on the other hand was very off IMHO.

Still, I've said this before, Sanderson did a good job in difficult circumstances.

Now, a random thought just came to me- what are the chance of us getting some more WoT in the future?

Terez
12-04-2015, 08:32 PM
Kinda makes it hard to discuss anything in the later books you know...and getting talked down to about it gets old too.
No one is talking down to you Dav. Though you do seem more inclined that most posters to rant extensively on either of those topics. I only chimed in because Fionwe responded, and that's usually a precursor to back-and-forth.

Terez
12-04-2015, 08:32 PM
Now, a random thought just came to me- what are the chance of us getting some more WoT in the future?
Zero. They've made that pretty clear. Maybe try fanfic?

Daekyras
12-05-2015, 01:16 AM
Zero. They've made that pretty clear. Maybe try fanfic?

Never!!! Especially after you guys taught me about slash fiction. Argh.

I'll tell you where I'm coming from- I know that bandersnatch(the jordan estate guys) have said there will be none. I was re - organising bookshelves and came across the extended Tolkien verse. I was wondering if something like that could happen after some time?

Nb: not suggesting that would be good!

Terez
12-05-2015, 01:19 AM
Never!!! Especially after you guys taught me about slash fiction. Argh.
Fanfic has well-established rules of organization. You can usually sort search results to make sure you don't get anything like that, and then there are the ratings, warnings and relationship labels.

Davian93
12-06-2015, 06:25 PM
No one is talking down to you Dav. Though you do seem more inclined that most posters to rant extensively on either of those topics. I only chimed in because Fionwe responded, and that's usually a precursor to back-and-forth.

I'm probably more inclined to rant on ANYTHING than most here...or post in general (as indicated by my ridiculously high post count that only you surpass).

I wasn't ranting in this case, just pointing out something I noticed on my reread of aMoL.

One thought/conclusion I did have on this reread was that Nakomi almost has to be the Creator's avatar. The "old Aiel woman" Rand sees/hears at Shayol Ghul towards the end cliches it for me. I think someone else already posited that theory IIRC. Seems to make sense.

Davian93
12-06-2015, 06:26 PM
Never!!! Especially after you guys taught me about slash fiction. Argh.

I'll tell you where I'm coming from- I know that bandersnatch(the jordan estate guys) have said there will be none. I was re - organising bookshelves and came across the extended Tolkien verse. I was wondering if something like that could happen after some time?

Nb: not suggesting that would be good!

I'd love it if some more of the notes were published...in a better format than the Companion (which was disappointing to say the least).

Figbiscuit
12-07-2015, 04:07 AM
And the best book to come too. Dammit the first 6 books in this series are just sooooo good.

Which is the best to come?

That seems to qualify.
No, he wasn't turned. All it took was saving him from the AS, and then making him an offer he couldn't refuse. Based on what we know, he likely was not have too inclined to refuse anyway.


Hmmmm, OK. Who rescued him? I thought the BA were supposed to be breaking him free...

The columns in Rhuidean are probably the best overall scene in all the books to me. Just so well done.

And yeah, TSR is pretty much the best book IMHO too. The 4-5-6 trilogy is where the entire series peaks and its a slow decline through 7 & 8 to the nadir that is 9-10-11 and the slight rebound under Brandon to finish it off.

I'm rereading aMoL for the first time since my initial read and its actually better than I remember...other than the at times very jarring voices for certain characters (Egwene and Mat in particular and Jesus Rand to a lesser extent) the action scenes really play to Brandon's strengths. Though he does go a bit too far into his Mighty Morphin Power Rangers routine at times (lava gateway, a tempest of this and a tempest of that, etc).

But still its decent at least.

I'm quite looking forward to reading Brandon's three again from the perspective of having just read the entire back series. I remember Mat's voice jarring me a lot first time around, the rest of what you say I hadn't noticed so much. But, open mind and all that...

Just got to the bit in CoS where Nynaeve and Elayne are on the Sea Folk ship negotiating the deal for help with the Bowl of Winds.

What was the deal between Sulin and Nandera fighting it out after Sulin puts off the servant garb, and the same with Sorelia and Amys with water...I get that it was a leadership struggle but I didn't really get the nuances of how it all ended. Like, Sulin beat Nandera but Nandera retained leadership of the Maidens...

Also, is Wise Ones hierarchy ruled by age? Does anyone know how old Sorelia actually is??

Nazbaque
12-07-2015, 05:36 AM
What was the deal between Sulin and Nandera fighting it out after Sulin puts off the servant garb, and the same with Sorelia and Amys with water...I get that it was a leadership struggle but I didn't really get the nuances of how it all ended. Like, Sulin beat Nandera but Nandera retained leadership of the Maidens...

Also, is Wise Ones hierarchy ruled by age? Does anyone know how old Sorelia actually is??

I always thought of the Aiel society as being ruled by strength of character. I think it's one of RJ's points that when the organization tells who the superior is by some sort of simple default (i.e. by age or OP strength) you'll end up with people in charge who don't have all the necessary qualifications. Sorilea has a very forcefull personality, but the other Wise Ones also recognise her as a truly wise person and so they often don't have an argument with which to oppose her.

The Sulin vs. Nandera thing is a matter of ji'e'toh. According to ji'e'toh the greatest shame in combat is to be touched without being harmed in any way. I'd imagine that there are degrees to this with something like a light tap on the back of the neck being at the top of the list. In their fight Nandera won Sulin's respect by forcing her to win by knock out. She couldn't humiliate Nandera or make her admit defeat. Knocking her out was the same as admitting this and so Sulin stepped down.

Daekyras
12-07-2015, 06:36 AM
Which is the best to come?


Well, you are past it now- The best book in the series, imo, is tFoH. I think it is perfect. I might even call it my favourite book of any genre.

Davian93
12-07-2015, 07:06 AM
Well, you are past it now- The best book in the series, imo, is tFoH. I think it is perfect. I might even call it my favourite book of any genre.

Its a really good book. The only parts that drag a little bit for me is the endless wagon trip across Amadicia. Even that isn't bad as I really like Nynaeve overall so her scenes are always interesting to me. I even like Elayne at that point in the story as she hadn't yet become ulter annoying. Besides, who doesn't like hot blondes...

GonzoTheGreat
12-07-2015, 07:17 AM
Hmmmm, OK. Who rescued him? I thought the BA were supposed to be breaking him free...
Oh yes, the BA brought him to Demandred. But Taim then wasn't Turned using the 13 Myrddraal trick; instead he was recruited with promises of eternal life, lordship over his "inferiors" and the services of the same design bureau that also worked for Ishamael (hence the suspicious colour scheme he adopted later in the series).

Daekyras
12-07-2015, 07:22 AM
Oh yes, the BA brought him to Demandred. But Taim then wasn't Turned using the 13 Myrddraal trick; instead he was recruited with promises of eternal life, lordship over his "inferiors" and the services of the same design bureau that also worked for Ishamael (hence the suspicious colour scheme he adopted later in the series).

I always found people linking moridin and taim via colour hilarious.

maybe he used Red and black as thats an awesome combination.

Davian93
12-07-2015, 09:16 AM
I always found people linking moridin and taim via colour hilarious.

maybe he used Red and black as thats an awesome combination.

Ironically though, it apparently was a sort of livery for Moridin...I believe Graendal or Lanfear muses about it to themself during aMoL. Can't recall which actually...probably Graendal as I dont recall Lanfear/Cyndane getting a POV. Maybe Moggy too. I dont know, I'm tired but it was mentioned.

fionwe1987
12-07-2015, 10:34 AM
Ironically though, it apparently was a sort of livery for Moridin...I believe Graendal or Lanfear muses about it to themself during aMoL. Can't recall which actually...probably Graendal as I dont recall Lanfear/Cyndane getting a POV. Maybe Moggy too. I dont know, I'm tired but it was mentioned.

Graendal mentions it with respect to Cyndane, saying how the color doesn't really suit her.

Davian93
12-07-2015, 11:08 AM
Thanks.

Figbiscuit
12-14-2015, 09:53 AM
When Fain slashes Rand out in the tents with the rebels, Min is crying.

Cadsuane touches her and tells her to stop crying and Min is surprised to realise that she did.

Did Cadsuane use compulsion on her?

ETA: and thanks for the answers to my questions earlier on too :)

fionwe1987
12-14-2015, 10:08 AM
When Fain slashes Rand out in the tents with the rebels, Min is crying.

Cadsuane touches her and tells her to stop crying and Min is surprised to realise that she did.

Did Cadsuane use compulsion on her?

ETA: and thanks for the answers to my questions earlier on too :)

I definitely would say, no. It is way out of Cadsuane's character to use Compulsion at all. And for something so small? Definitely not.

Min is just surprised at how easily she responds to Cadsuane's commands. Everyone is, their first time, usually.

Kimon
12-14-2015, 04:25 PM
I definitely would say, no. It is way out of Cadsuane's character to use Compulsion at all. And for something so small? Definitely not.

Min is just surprised at how easily she responds to Cadsuane's commands. Everyone is, their first time, usually.

Yeah, I'd agree that compulsion is very unlikely, but this does raise another, admittedly outlandish, possibility. We know that the Blues have a secret fear weave. Does make one wonder, might there be other emotion enhancing or suppressing weaves? Not that I'm suggesting that Cadsuane has a secret calming weave, but such a weave might be useful...

fionwe1987
12-14-2015, 05:04 PM
Yeah, I'd agree that compulsion is very unlikely, but this does raise another, admittedly outlandish, possibility. We know that the Blues have a secret fear weave. Does make one wonder, might there be other emotion enhancing or suppressing weaves? Not that I'm suggesting that Cadsuane has a secret calming weave, but such a weave might be useful...

Such a weave is certainly possible, even likely. But I don't see Cadsuane wanting to resort to it, frankly. She is someone who clearly takes pride in her presence and how people react to just her. Using the Power to sneakily make people behave as she wants seems to be something she would disparage. Heck, I found her using the OP on Tam to be out of character.

GonzoTheGreat
12-15-2015, 04:08 AM
Such a weave is certainly possible, even likely. But I don't see Cadsuane wanting to resort to it, frankly. She is someone who clearly takes pride in her presence and how people react to just her. Using the Power to sneakily make people behave as she wants seems to be something she would disparage. Heck, I found her using the OP on Tam to be out of character.
She was under a bit of stress at the time.

Figbiscuit
12-15-2015, 06:39 AM
Yeah, I'd agree that compulsion is very unlikely, but this does raise another, admittedly outlandish, possibility. We know that the Blues have a secret fear weave. Does make one wonder, might there be other emotion enhancing or suppressing weaves? Not that I'm suggesting that Cadsuane has a secret calming weave, but such a weave might be useful...

The blues have a secret fear weave?

Terez
12-15-2015, 06:47 AM
Embracing the Source, she wove Spirit in one of the Blue's secret weaves and touched the innkeeper with it. Slight anticipation became definite unease. "Are you certain the young woman meets my description exactly?" she asked, and tightened the weave a traction. Sweat appeared on Mistress Satarov's forehead. "Are you absolutely certain?" Another tightening, and an edge of fear appeared in the woman's eyes.

"Come to think, she doesn't have blue eyes at that. And . . . And she left this morning, come to think."
.

GonzoTheGreat
12-15-2015, 07:27 AM
Dashiva stole it from them (or maybe taught it to them, long ago):
"The Dragon Reborn," Dashiva’s voice sounded loud, magnified slightly by the Power, "the King of Illian, the Lord of the Morning, comes to see the woman, Cadsuane Melaidhrin."
Rand stepped in, standing tall. He did not recognize the other weave Dashiva had created, but the air seemed to hum with menace, a sense of something inexorable approaching, drawing ever nearer.

Figbiscuit
12-17-2015, 04:37 AM
Ah, thank you. I didn't start with New Spring on this re-read, also haven't read it often enough to be all that familiar with the content.

I started PoD last night. It's alright, isn't it, thinking you can just pick the books up and read them and everything will be fine and life will carry on as normal.

Literally can't get anything else done. Totally hooked.

Figbiscuit
02-05-2016, 07:50 AM
Have read Path of Daggers, Crossroads of Twilight and am half way through Knife of Dreams now.

Nothing significant to add as I've forgotten everything I wanted to question (you're welcome Gonzo), but this time around CoT didn't seem to drag as much, possibly because I'm not waiting on any answers anymore. And where previously it's felt like Faile's rescue dragged on forever, this time it's Elayne's taking of the throne which is boring me out.

Southpaw2012
02-05-2016, 01:42 PM
I've always liked Faile. It's Elayne who annoys me.

Rand al'Fain
02-07-2016, 06:09 PM
I've always liked Faile. It's Elayne who annoys me.

Same here. Though some parts Elayne can be okay. Other parts...

GonzoTheGreat
02-08-2016, 03:04 AM
Though some parts Elayne can be okay.
When she's a lumberjack, she's okay,
She sleeps all night and she works all day.

She cuts down trees, she skips and jumps,
She likes to press wild flowers.
She puts on women's clothing
And hangs around.... In bars???????

Figbiscuit
02-11-2016, 03:55 PM
Just started TGS. This is the first time it's really felt face smackingly obvious that it's been written by someone else. I have had issues with certain voices in the past - Mat's for one, but maybe coming straight off the back of a full re-read it's just more obvious this time :(

Davian93
02-11-2016, 07:33 PM
Just started TGS. This is the first time it's really felt face smackingly obvious that it's been written by someone else. I have had issues with certain voices in the past - Mat's for one, but maybe coming straight off the back of a full re-read it's just more obvious this time :(

Yeah, its a pretty jarring switch.

Figbiscuit
02-16-2016, 07:47 AM
The whole tone of voice is wrong for pretty much everyone, and now I'm further in I'm really noticing the difference in style as to how he writes too - the subtle word craft of RJ, teasing you to a conclusion in your own brain is gone, BS tends to just hit you over the head with every thought process of every character. And there are a lot more exclamation marks.

I'm not meaning to diss him, I'd rather have a completed story than not, I just genuinely hadn't noticed such a huge difference before, but then this time I've been immersed in RJ for seven months whereas before I maybe read KoD before diving in to TGS and maybe not even that when the final two came out.

ETA: didn't mean to repeat my previous post quite so much...sorry...

Figbiscuit
02-16-2016, 07:50 AM
Back on topic, I can't believe how much it was glossed over about how Semirhage got hold of the Domination Band. What about all Cadsuane's fancy weaves, designed to make for huge alarms if anyone so much as touched the box? Am I missing something?

I also thought it was strange that Aviendha didn't notice anything through the bond, but they glossed over that in a slightly lily-livered manner too.

Davian93
02-16-2016, 09:01 AM
The whole tone of voice is wrong for pretty much everyone, and now I'm further in I'm really noticing the difference in style as to how he writes too - the subtle word craft of RJ, teasing you to a conclusion in your own brain is gone, BS tends to just hit you over the head with every thought process of every character. And there are a lot more exclamation marks.

I'm not meaning to diss him, I'd rather have a completed story than not, I just genuinely hadn't noticed such a huge difference before, but then this time I've been immersed in RJ for seven months whereas before I maybe read KoD before diving in to TGS and maybe not even that when the final two came out.

ETA: didn't mean to repeat my previous post quite so much...sorry...

RJ was like listening to a classical orchestra...Brandon is like listening to a 90s Alternative Band...both have their pluses but they are quite jarring listened to back to back.

fionwe1987
02-17-2016, 12:39 PM
Back on topic, I can't believe how much it was glossed over about how Semirhage got hold of the Domination Band. What about all Cadsuane's fancy weaves, designed to make for huge alarms if anyone so much as touched the box? Am I missing something?
Shaidar Haran is the explanation, I think.

I also thought it was strange that Aviendha didn't notice anything through the bond, but they glossed over that in a slightly lily-livered manner too.

Yeah this was just absurd. Heck, Elayne should have felt something, and she never even comments on it in ToM, as far as I remember.

Figbiscuit
03-08-2016, 06:45 AM
They made Elayne Over-General? I know Mat is off doing his thang with Tuon, but Rand never even mentioned that he might want him to take over when he returns...

There's a lot which is annoying me about these final books. I'm trying not to let it spoil things, but it's still annoying.

GonzoTheGreat
03-08-2016, 07:40 AM
Being Over-General was supposed to be a political job, not an actually military one. Elayne was basically expected to be a sort of super-nanny for nobles and AS, to spank them whenever they tried to interfere with the soldiery stuff. Mat never officially took over that part of the job, he just grabbed the bits of it that he did like.

fionwe1987
03-09-2016, 08:20 AM
Being Over-General was supposed to be a political job, not an actually military one. Elayne was basically expected to be a sort of super-nanny for nobles and AS, to spank them whenever they tried to interfere with the soldiery stuff. Mat never officially took over that part of the job, he just grabbed the bits of it that he did like.

Yeah it was more a Commander in Chief position, like temp. world president. Though frankly, I still think it absurd to give it to any of the young ones. They all had potential, but for something like this, experience would have been good too. Elayne's inexperience showed here, I think. The AS should just not have been left to be one single front. They should have been distributed, both to facilitate better communication between the 4 fronts, and to protect the leaders, and generally reduce losses on each front.

GonzoTheGreat
03-09-2016, 08:50 AM
Yeah, but there wasn't a monarch who could have arranged that, unless they'd given those AS to Tuon, who was even younger than Elayne. And Elayne was definitely a better solution than Egwene would've been. Elayne was not perfect, but she was the best available at the time.

fionwe1987
03-10-2016, 04:39 PM
Yeah, but there wasn't a monarch who could have arranged that, unless they'd given those AS to Tuon, who was even younger than Elayne. And Elayne was definitely a better solution than Egwene would've been. Elayne was not perfect, but she was the best available at the time.

I dunno. Morghase, or Siuan, or one of the Bordelanders (not Tenobia) would have done better, I think. They had way more experience at this sort of thing.

Weird Harold
03-10-2016, 10:00 PM
I dunno. Morghase, or Siuan, or one of the Bordelanders (not Tenobia) would have done better, I think. They had way more experience at this sort of thing.
The Queen of Andor and Cairhein has a lot more precedence in protocol than any other candidate save Tuon and Tuon is a foreigner.

The minor detail that the QoA&C happens to be Elayne when the balloon went up is just as the Pattern decreed.

GonzoTheGreat
03-11-2016, 03:07 AM
I dunno. Morghase, or Siuan, or one of the Bordelanders (not Tenobia) would have done better, I think. They had way more experience at this sort of thing.
Both Siuan and Morgase had lost a lot of status. They had the experience and competence to do it, but not the authority. Technically they might have been better, but politically they weren't the right choice.
The Borderland monarchs were more or less in the same situation, with the added issue that they didn't have the skill to deal with (southern) politics well enough. Militarily they could manage, but that was only half the job, and the less relevant half at that (since there were the Great Captains to handle that side of the problem).

What was needed was someone who could handle the political side of things, had enough stature to be instantly acceptable to all, and was also trusted well enough to let that person try. This last, obviously, excluded any (former) Amyrlin Seat, since no monarch would want to give such a woman any more power than she already had.

Sukoto
06-08-2016, 10:05 PM
So I finally finished my backwards re-read. I finished Eye of the World just the other day. I think it took me about a year to read the whole series that way.

I must say, the first book felt very different from any of the others. Even more different than usual. The uniqueness of the storytelling in book 1 really stood out. I can't tell if it was mostly because the characters were so young, and RJ needed to concentrate so much on getting us acquainted with them, or if RJ hadn't really decided the course of the story until the end of the book. Moiraine seems almost naive in the first book, but that could also just be the newness of the character and RJ's need to keep pace with the reader.

Reading the books in reverse order made it easier to pick up on all the foreshadowing as well. It was kind of cool to be reminded just how far in advance certain characters were introduced. Like Dain Bornhald, for example. I had forgotten we first meet him in Baerlon in book 1. One of the earliest important minor characters in the series from outside the Two Rivers.

And last but not least, I understand Egwene haters a little better now. I had forgotten just how much RJ had set her character up in the beginning as the embodiment of what frustrates men about women. I had even forgotten exactly why she left the Two Rivers in the first place (to see the world, as if Emond's Field hadn't just been attacked by Trollocs, and "Don't try to tell me you're not leaving for the same reason, Rand!") I usually only think of her character post-Seanchan, post-Aiel.

maleshub
06-09-2016, 06:30 PM
It seems that the Dragon's Peace was Rand's no. 1 priority in the Merrilor Conference. He wanted Elayne to sign the treaty; and for that he gave her supreme command. Rand pitched Elayne as a leader to the core (acceptable, since she was groomed for a few years to rule Andor after her mother), and as the one who taught him everything about being a leader. That was a clear lie since she only instructed him on leadership during their 4 days of Tear and kissing. Whereas Moiraine drilled him in leadership, rule, and the game of houses for weeks and months. Bashere was his personal advisor for months. And Cadsuane, a few rungs above Elayne, was his Aes Sedai advisor. And he had a few centuries worth of memories as the Supreme Leader in the Age of Legends (ref. his chat with Tuon).

As to the duties of the supreme commander, they were more military than political in my opinion. After all, the leader was to lead the armies of the Light in the Last Battle. And we see that most of Elayne's decisions were military ones, not political.

But what choices did the Light have for Supreme Commander? It doesn't seem that any candidate stood out above all the others. But Elayne was at the lower end of the candidates in my opinion. She just lost her capital; and if not for Rand's ploy to bring the armies of the Light to Merrilor, she would have lost most of her army as well. And she had ample warning from darkfriends that an invasion of Caemlyn was pending. As a queen she bears responsibility for that failure.

Mat's absence made any choice as good as any other. Because in the end, Mat was the one that needed to lead the armies of the Light.

And that brings me to another point, did Graendal start manipulating the Great Captains before their great, fragmented plan of 4 armies for 4 battle fronts? Because I think that fragmentation of the forces of the Light played well into the Shadow's hands.

The ability to send 100,000 cavalry to Tarwin's Gap to save Lan could have been easily used to send 300,000 and 1000 channelers to annihilate the Shadow army at the gap, then Travel to Kandor and eradicate the army there with the same combined forces.

Leave the Trollocs holed up in Caemlyn. Their purpose was to draw attention south (as Rand rightly guessed). They were the smallest army; and could have been pinned down in Caemlyn with a small mobile force and dragons, with some channelers for gateways.

The Trojan horse would be Demandred if he decides to make an appearance anywhere. And to counter any surprise, the Light should have combined 3 armies and kept the 4th as reserve. The armies of Bashere, Bryne, and Agelmar to Travel and defeat the Shadow in Tarwin's Gap, then Kandor, then Caemlyn. Rodel's army a reserve.

Even though hindsight is 20/20, I still feel that the battle plan that was drafted after the Merrilor Conference was very, very deficient and didn't utilize the strengths of the Light, channelers and Traveling.

And what's ironic is that darth-Rand had that plan when he chatted with Nynaeve on their way to meet the borderlanders. He planned to use gateways to Travel and defeat different Shadow armies.

GonzoTheGreat
06-10-2016, 04:10 AM
And what's ironic is that darth-Rand had that plan when he chatted with Nynaeve on their way to meet the borderlanders. He planned to use gateways to Travel and defeat different Shadow armies.
It was basically a scaled up version of his campaign against the Seanchan.

On the other hand, there are a few things that could have gone wrong with it:
The Shadow could have retreated at Tarwin's Gap. Then either the forces of the Light would have to pursue them into the Blight (while leaving the other Shadow armies to do as they wished), or they would have had to station a holding force in the Gap and gone after the next target.
The Shadow could have decided not to keep the Kandor army in one piece. Split it up into hundreds of independent groups of roaming Trollocs and send those in all directions, and the forces of the Light would've faced years of tracking them all down.
Dreadlords could have attacked the troops besieging Caemlyn from the rear, thus giving the Trollocs an opening to break out and start ravaging Andor. Why they didn't do that anyway is a mystery to me; 300 fists of a hundred Trollocs each (making a total of 30,000) could have very seriously messed up the logistics on which the Light depended.
The Shadow could have send Trolloc raiding parties all over the world using Portal Stones. Wouldn't win the war on its own, perhaps, but it would make the situation for the Light a lot more desperate than it was now.

maleshub
06-10-2016, 04:10 PM
It was basically a scaled up version of his campaign against the Seanchan.

On the other hand, there are a few things that could have gone wrong with it:
The Shadow could have retreated at Tarwin's Gap. Then either the forces of the Light would have to pursue them into the Blight (while leaving the other Shadow armies to do as they wished), or they would have had to station a holding force in the Gap and gone after the next target.
The Shadow could have decided not to keep the Kandor army in one piece. Split it up into hundreds of independent groups of roaming Trollocs and send those in all directions, and the forces of the Light would've faced years of tracking them all down.
Dreadlords could have attacked the troops besieging Caemlyn from the rear, thus giving the Trollocs an opening to break out and start ravaging Andor. Why they didn't do that anyway is a mystery to me; 300 fists of a hundred Trollocs each (making a total of 30,000) could have very seriously messed up the logistics on which the Light depended.
The Shadow could have send Trolloc raiding parties all over the world using Portal Stones. Wouldn't win the war on its own, perhaps, but it would make the situation for the Light a lot more desperate than it was now.

I can see where the Shadow could have pulled a more grand version of Sammael's Shaido plan with its Kandor army. But the problem with the Shadow fragmenting its forces is that it allows local defenses to be more effective. For example, armies of a thousand or so Trollocs would not have breached any defended city or town in the borderlands. The borderlander civilians would have been at an advantage defending against them from behind fortifications.

Still, Trollocs cannot Travel; and a fist of Trollocs only needs 1 Ashaman to handle it. So, the Shadow fragmentation might have allowed the Light to easily finish off its Kandor army with a combination of local defenses facing smaller enemy forces and teams of 1-2 channelers.

As to the Shadow retreating into the Gap, I don't think that could have been possible if the Light hit them with its full might. The rescue sent to Lan hit the Shadow army out of the gap while it was forming its battle lines. But even in the Gap, a concentrated effort of Ashaman and Aes Sedai with conventional backup would have been enough to render that army too weak to destroy Shienar.

As to the enemy dreadlords, they were much less than the Light's, even minus the Seanchan. Egwene dealt them a tremendous blow; and Taim and his cronies were too exhausted with their stupid "males Turning males". The Light could have outnumbered any Shadow dreadlord deployment prior to Demandred's entrance, and even afterwards. It is beyond me why Lan's army had 5 Ashaman only after the rescue; while Elayne had the kin at her disposal.

What about the Ogier; the Companion says that they numbered 500,000 in population in Randland. An army of 100,000 ogier with Ashaman would have probably handled 5 times its number of Shadow forces

Weiramon
06-24-2016, 12:14 PM
//

Because I think that fragmentation of the forces of the Light played well into the Shadow's hands.

The ability to send 100,000 cavalry to Tarwin's Gap to save Lan could have been easily used to send 300,000 and 1000 channelers to annihilate the Shadow army at the gap, then Travel to Kandor and eradicate the army there with the same combined forces.

//



Bah, that's ridiculous.

Any Lord worth his salt knows to hit with fingers spread, not as a fist. Perhaps a treatise on proper combat strategy that isn't 1,700 years old needs to be done. It can be called "Sa'vron - Caba'drin!"

maleshub
06-25-2016, 03:27 PM
Bah, that's ridiculous.

Any Lord worth his salt knows to hit with fingers spread, not as a fist. Perhaps a treatise on proper combat strategy that isn't 1,700 years old needs to be done. It can be called "Sa'vron - Caba'drin!"

LOL!!! Why did RJ have to write you as a friend of the Dark? The Light would have been so much better with Saniago Weiramon leading the Black Tower; bringing destruction on his foes, and a healing touch on his captured Aes Sedai :p