PDA

View Full Version : Was Gawyn a bastard?


GonzoTheGreat
10-01-2015, 06:30 AM
I haven't really managed to figure out whether he is older than Rand or not. If he is, then Tigraine was still alive when he was born, which would probably mean that Taringail's marriage to Morgase wasn't valid at the time.

Of course, with both Gawyn and Elaine, their mother was more important than the father, so it wouldn't have had many legal repercussions.

fionwe1987
10-01-2015, 10:16 AM
I haven't really managed to figure out whether he is older than Rand or not. If he is, then Tigraine was still alive when he was born, which would probably mean that Taringail's marriage to Morgase wasn't valid at the time.

Of course, with both Gawyn and Elaine, their mother was more important than the father, so it wouldn't have had many legal repercussions.

Don't think the concept of bastards exists in WoT. Elayne's kids are not bastards, and the vast majority of Andor doesn't even know who the father is. I don't think Gawyn technically being a bastard wpuld have mattered to anyone.

GonzoTheGreat
10-01-2015, 10:41 AM
Generally, it tends to matter when it comes to inheriting noble titles. Which is why it matters less for Elayne, since she is her mother's heir anyway.

True, by getting himself killed before spawning any offspring Gawyn somewhat mooted the point too, but I'm willing to generously overlook that detail for the sake of this discussion.

Boli
10-01-2015, 12:30 PM
http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline

a few highlights:

972: Galahad born, Tigraine heads off into the waste, Morgase marries Taringail

976-978: Aiel War

so there is more of a gap than the books let on with a first cursory read.

GonzoTheGreat
10-01-2015, 01:17 PM
The important thing in that timeline is that it says that Gawyn was born in 979 NE, thus in the year after Tigraine died and Taringail was actually free to be legally married to Morgase. If correct, then the answer to my question is "no".

Which of course raises the next question: is it correct?
I haven't found any precise dating for Gawyn's birth, which is what sparked this thread in the first place. That, and rereading the bit where Gawyn tells Galad about his other brother.

WinespringBrother
10-02-2015, 09:57 AM
Based on this quote and the chronology, Gawyn was older than Rand:

Lord of Chaos CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Message
Gawyn himself, a few years past twenty, was among the oldest.

This was in late 999, and thus shortly before Rand turned twenty-one (he was born 1-Danu, 978). It indicates that Gawyn was born before 979 NE. Usually, "a few" would probably mean three to five, so a probably range of twenty-three to twenty-five, and a birth year range of 974*-976. I'm guessing he was born later than earlier though, based on Morgase's age and how busy she was trying to take the throne at the time, which she apparently won by around 975, after which she married Taringail.

Nazbaque
10-02-2015, 10:18 AM
I haven't really managed to figure out whether he is older than Rand or not. If he is, then Tigraine was still alive when he was born, which would probably mean that Taringail's marriage to Morgase wasn't valid at the time.

Of course, with both Gawyn and Elaine, their mother was more important than the father, so it wouldn't have had many legal repercussions.

Would the marriage be valid at any point if Tigraine was still alive at the time of the ceremony?

WinespringBrother
10-02-2015, 10:28 AM
Would the marriage be valid at any point if Tigraine was still alive at the time of the ceremony?

Just to muddle the situation further, Tigraine was going by Aiel customs at the time, where they have multiple spouses lol (though I don't recall if she actually married Janduin).

Nazbaque
10-02-2015, 10:36 AM
Just to muddle the situation further, Tigraine was going by Aiel customs at the time, where they have multiple spouses lol (though I don't recall if she actually married Janduin).

She didn't. It's essential to the plot actually as she wouldn't have been Far Dareis Mai anymore and thus Rand wouldn't have been a son of one.

C Rutherford
10-02-2015, 10:40 AM
We really do not have any idea how marriage laws work. But Tigraine could be considered having dissolved the marriage by heading into the Waste.

I also don't think there is the concept of bastardy anyhow as already mentioned.

But if the concept did exist then Elayne would also be one since the only marriage would be invalid in the making. So if it doesn't matter that Tigraine died since technically Morgase and Taringail never legally married.

WinespringBrother
10-02-2015, 10:54 AM
It is possible that Morgase as Queen had the authority to nullify Taringail's previous marriage by decree, since they had no proof one way or the other whether Tigraine was still alive. I'm sure that would have been considered at the time to make sure of the lines of succession for Gawyn and Elayne.

WinespringBrother
10-02-2015, 10:57 AM
She didn't. It's essential to the plot actually as she wouldn't have been Far Dareis Mai anymore and thus Rand wouldn't have been a son of one.

True. Though technically she was still married to Taringail anyway, so she broke her marriage vows by wedding her spear :D (ETA: unless she was legally divorced by that point by Morgase or some other party)

GonzoTheGreat
10-02-2015, 11:02 AM
Would the marriage be valid at any point if Tigraine was still alive at the time of the ceremony?
A good question, but since we have no way at all of answering it, I decided to ignore it. Much simpler that way, you know.

Nazbaque
10-02-2015, 11:17 AM
A good question, but since we have no way at all of answering it, I decided to ignore it. Much simpler that way, you know.

Assuming simplicity in legal questions is illogical gonzo.

GonzoTheGreat
10-02-2015, 12:09 PM
True, but on the other hand: it does work for Galad, so why shouldn't it work in this case?

Nazbaque
10-02-2015, 12:19 PM
True, but on the other hand: it does work for Galad, so why shouldn't it work in this case?

Wasn't it one of the key points that it didn't work for him?

GonzoTheGreat
10-02-2015, 12:27 PM
Well, yes, but he was the only one of the lot who definitely wasn't a bastard, so there's that.

Side question: was Taringail a blademaster?

Nazbaque
10-02-2015, 12:49 PM
I don't recall any implication that he had any skill with any weapon whatsoever, though it has been quite a while since I did a reread.

GonzoTheGreat
10-02-2015, 12:55 PM
I think he went hunting and managed to get himself killed. Though whether that shows his own skill or someone else's may be debated.

fionwe1987
10-02-2015, 02:17 PM
I think he went hunting and managed to get himself killed. Though whether that shows his own skill or someone else's may be debated.

Thom arranged that, remember. He seems to be an expert in arranging for hunting accidents. He did the same in Tear too. Gray Fox is a good name for him.

greatwolf
10-03-2015, 04:07 PM
Is Rand related to Aviendha? All I recall is that Janduin was also Taardaad. Do we know of any relatives on that side?

Rand al'Fain
10-03-2015, 08:16 PM
Aviendha did have that cousin/sister (I forget which) when she first met Elayne and Nynaeve.

GonzoTheGreat
10-04-2015, 05:34 AM
Dailin; her mother's sister's daughter. Of course, Dailin got killed just a bit later, so she wasn't a big complication anyway.

Terez
10-04-2015, 10:52 AM
Is Rand related to Aviendha? All I recall is that Janduin was also Taardaad. Do we know of any relatives on that side?
Probably about as closely as he was related to Elayne. We have no clues as to how close they might be; that's a guess. We don't know anything about Aviendha's family except that Rhuarc's roofmistress Lian was her sister-mother.