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View Full Version : Please explain what I see as major plot holes? Am I right?


meta1234
10-03-2015, 05:00 PM
Hi everyone, firstly I will mention that I have only just finished a Crown of Swords, so no spoilers if you can help it please.

I am a big fan of the WoT books so far, but a fair few times I have noticed things I would suggest are plot holes, or at least that there are times when characters act irrationally and in a way just doesn't make sense compared to the alternatives, or don't do something that seems pretty obvious. Often it is just keeping a secret that there is no need to keep.

There are a ton of examples on this great list, especially "in the why don't they just" section, with plenty I missed completely: http://abbygoldsmith...been_nice.shtml

The ones that most bugged me most aren't on there though, here they are... Please can you guys let me know if you agree with me, or if you don't please explain if I am missing something here. Thanks in advance, sorry the post is so long.

1) Rand deciding to leave behind both Callandor and the Male Bearded Man Sa'angreal.

I am so frustrated when I read the books because so many of Rand's problems and difficult fights are easily avoidable, as with Callandor he was more powerful than the most powerful forsaken (Ishmael). These fights he lucked his way through become easy with Callandor...

Rand vs Rahvin (Rand got lucky and needed Nyneave to help)
Lanfear tries to kill Aviendha and Elayne (Moraine saves him)
Rand gets captured by Elaida's Aes Sedai
Rand vs Sammael (Gets lucky because he is saved by the mysterious man)
There will probably be more as I continue reading...

Now I know Rand said he left Callandor to make sure the Tairens don't forget about him. I mean that's a fairly stupid reason to begin with, given how powerful it is and how many Aiel he left in Tear, so they couldn't rebel even if they wanted to. But later on he learns how to travel so he could just turn up whenever he wants to in Tear to remind them he is in charge, so there is literally no reason at all anymore to leave Callandor behind, just take a 2 minute trip and go and get it!

When I googled about the Male Sa'angreal I accidentally learned a spoiler that later on he actually destroys it because no one should have that power. (It seems really really stupid given that he needs to fight the all evil dark one who will corrupt the world and what not, but fair enough I suppose). But prior to this he just leaves it hidden and doesn't really mention that aspect of it at all, it is just ignored completely as if it doesn't exist. I don't see why he couldn't just keep it with him as a backup just in case he is getting beaten by one of the forsaken.

2) Why did Moiraine jump and push Lanfear and herself through the doorway when she was stood in plain view of her, why not just kill her with a shot of balefire (which we know she can use and isn't afraid of the consequences from when she kills Be'lal with it)??? This doesn't make any sense...

3) Sammaels battle with Rand is ridiculous. He doesn't want to destroy Illian so takes the fight elsewhere, fine, completely understandable. Going to Shadar Logoth, not so much, why would he take the fight somewhere that is obviously dangerous where there is something that could easily kill him, as it does. That is the most underwhelmed I have been so far in the books (which I love so far). Without the mysterious stranger saving Rand Sammael was winning, he is stronger than Rand, but he decided the best place to fight is one where some weird fog stuff can kill you, then when he isn't looking the fog just kills him and no one even sees it. This made for awful reading, I figured maybe I am wrong about this and Sammael isn't really dead and its part of a plan, so I looked it up and nope, he is dead...

4) The Forsaken at one point are mentioned as trying to go after angreal but none of them have managed it yet. Liandrin and her Black Ajah couldn't break into the angreal and sa'angreal store rooms either when they tried to break in. Why is any of this necessary?! They are Aes Sedai, plenty of them have checked out angreal as referenced plenty of times in the books, the Forsaken could just tell one of them to check one out and give it to them, maybe not a sa'angreal but definitely a regular angreal at least! I couldn't get over how dumb this was. On top of all this Mesaana is said to be hidden inside the White Tower at this point, so she should definitely have one. Also Padan Fain manages to break in to get his dagger and Alviarin shows up and makes sure no one else does, she is Black Ajah, so even if the others for some reason couldn't get an angreal Alviarin definitely can.

greatwolf
10-03-2015, 05:26 PM
Welcome to TL, meta1234.

1) Rand deciding to leave behind both Callandor and the Male Bearded Man Sa'angreal.

I am so frustrated when I read the books because so many of Rand's problems and difficult fights are easily avoidable, as with Callandor he was more powerful than the most powerful forsaken (Ishmael). These fights he lucked his way through become easy with Callandor...

I think I can help you with one. Its fear. Well lack of maturity too, IMO. Rand tried to use Callandor to resurrect the dead in TSH and from there on, he could not trust himself with either of the two Saangreal. Later he found out something else about Callandor in tPoD that made him lucky he was not using Callandor freely.

Kimon
10-03-2015, 06:24 PM
1) Rand deciding to leave behind both Callandor and the Male Bearded Man Sa'angreal.


RAFO (oh and sorry for the spoilers...)

Davian93
10-03-2015, 07:30 PM
I...

Dude...MASSIVE SPOILERS for him if he's only finished Crown of Swords...

Kimon
10-03-2015, 07:40 PM
Dude...MASSIVE SPOILERS for him if he's only finished Crown of Swords...

Whoops. It's been so long since I've had to think about spoilers for this series that it slipped my mind to even notice that. It looks like he hasn't been logged in since before my reply, so I'll delete my post, though in my defense, what exactly is he doing asking for comments on what he sees as a plot hole without us revealing why...

Admittedly, you would also need to edit to avoid him seeing my original post...

fionwe1987
10-03-2015, 07:46 PM
Dude...MASSIVE SPOILERS for him if he's only finished Crown of Swords...

Seriously. Kimon, can you please edit your post? Also, Davian, might help to remove what was quoted.


1) Rand deciding to leave behind both Callandor and the Male Bearded Man Sa'angreal.

There are good reasons for this. Remember Rand trying to bring back the dead girl in the fourth book? That spooked him, and made him (rightly) question whether he was ready for such power.

For another, he constantly has to worry that he will go mad. How much worse for the world if he does and has a very powerful sa'angreal with him?

When I googled about the Male Sa'angreal I accidentally learned a spoiler that later on he actually destroys it because no one should have that power.
If you really want to enjoy the books, avoid googling stuff about them. Also, quick reads of things people say on the internet can be deceptive. The bearded man plays more of a role than you think. Stay tuned.

2) Why did Moiraine jump and push Lanfear and herself through the doorway when she was stood in plain view of her, why not just kill her with a shot of balefire (which we know she can use and isn't afraid of the consequences from when she kills Be'lal with it)??? This doesn't make any sense...
You do remember Moiraine's letter to Rand explaining that she had seen the event, correct? The simplest answer is she did what she did because she already knew how it played out.

More importantly, if Moiraine had embraced the Source any earlier, Lanfear would have sensed it and destroyed her. The element of surprise was crucial for Moiraine to succeed.

3) Sammaels battle with Rand is ridiculous.
Not so much. This was about the only place Sammael could be sure some random channeler wouldn't disturb his wards. That way, he could be sure that if someone channeled, it would be Rand.

As for Mashadar... you give Sammael credit for thinking it was an actual threat to him. He almost certainly didn't know of all its dangers, as it is not a thing from his Age.

4) The Forsaken at one point are mentioned as trying to go after angreal but none of them have managed it yet. Liandrin and her Black Ajah couldn't break into the angreal and sa'angreal store rooms either when they tried to break in. Why is any of this necessary?! They are Aes Sedai, plenty of them have checked out angreal as referenced plenty of times in the books, the Forsaken could just tell one of them to check one out and give it to them, maybe not a sa'angreal but definitely a regular angreal at least! I couldn't get over how dumb this was. On top of all this Mesaana is said to be hidden inside the White Tower at this point, so she should definitely have one. Also Padan Fain manages to break in to get his dagger and Alviarin shows up and makes sure no one else does, she is Black Ajah, so even if the others for some reason couldn't get an angreal Alviarin definitely can.

Simple. Imagine a sister signs out an angreal and doesn't return it. Soon enough, she will be asked to give it back, and questioned if she doesn't. That either reveals the Black Ajah, or Mesaana's alias in the Tower. Neither of which is a small price to pay for a measly angreal.

Kimon
10-03-2015, 07:47 PM
Seriously. Kimon, can you please edit your post? Also, Davian, might help to remove what was quoted.


I did. Hopefully Dav will notice and remove my original post from his reply.

Unfortunately, he just logged out. Oy.

meta1234
10-03-2015, 08:07 PM
Dude...MASSIVE SPOILERS for him if he's only finished Crown of Swords...

Hi guys, first off thanks for the quick replies which I will reply to in a minute, but firstly a big thanks for this post which I saw before I read any of those spoilers so nothing has been ruined for me :) The quick responses and the actual care for the fact that I might see a spoiler shows that this looks to be a great community. I'll be sure to pass my eyes over that post every time I am on here so if no one can get around to editing the post it's okay, I know where it is.

Kimon
10-03-2015, 08:13 PM
Hi guys, first off thanks for the quick replies which I will reply to in a minute, but firstly a big thanks for this post which I saw before I read any of those spoilers so nothing has been ruined for me :) The quick responses and the actual care for the fact that I might see a spoiler shows that this looks to be a great community. I'll be sure to pass my eyes over that post every time I am on here so if no one can get around to editing the post it's okay, I know where it is.

Sorry about that.

meta1234
10-03-2015, 08:16 PM
Welcome to TL, meta1234.



I think I can help you with one. Its fear. Well lack of maturity too, IMO. Rand tried to use Callandor to resurrect the dead in TSH and from there on, he could not trust himself with either of the two Saangreal. Later he found out something else about Callandor in tPoD that made him lucky he was not using Callandor freely.

This makes sense actually, I thought it was probably something along those lines but I had completely forgotten about him trying to resurrect the girl, which seems to be an important explanation for the decision. Although it is still strange to me he wouldn't keep it as a last resort, I suppose this is an explanation I can accept and I think would probably be the one RJ would give. Thanks!

Rand al'Fain
10-03-2015, 08:17 PM
This makes sense actually, I thought it was probably something along those lines but I had completely forgotten about him trying to resurrect the girl, which seems to be an important explanation for the decision. Although it is still strange to me he wouldn't keep it as a last resort, I suppose this is an explanation I can accept and I think would probably be the one RJ would give. Thanks!

Also, keep reading. Some very important things come up later on.

meta1234
10-03-2015, 08:20 PM
Sorry about that.

Really not a problem. As you said I shouldn't be going around posting on forums if I want to be 100% sure of avoiding spoilers. I did mention in my post where I was up to, and responses shouldn't need to reference things later in the books because all the actions I questioned are all decisions made by characters based on past information. It isn't like they decide what to do based on what will be coming 3 books from now.

Kimon
10-03-2015, 08:26 PM
Really not a problem. As you said I shouldn't be going around posting on forums if I want to be 100% sure of avoiding spoilers. I did mention in my post where I was up to, and responses shouldn't need to reference things later in the books because all the actions I questioned are all decisions made by characters based on past information. It isn't like they decide what to do based on what will be coming 3 books from now.

As greatwolf pointed out, Rand is afraid of both Callandor and the Choedan Kal. Before he leaves to challenge Rahvin we see him consider going back for it but deciding not to because of that fear. But he did bring the Little Fat Man to that fight, so he didn't go unaided into that duel.

meta1234
10-03-2015, 09:16 PM
Seriously. Kimon, can you please edit your post? Also, Davian, might help to remove what was quoted.


There are good reasons for this. Remember Rand trying to bring back the dead girl in the fourth book? That spooked him, and made him (rightly) question whether he was ready for such power.

For another, he constantly has to worry that he will go mad. How much worse for the world if he does and has a very powerful sa'angreal with him?


If you really want to enjoy the books, avoid googling stuff about them. Also, quick reads of things people say on the internet can be deceptive. The bearded man plays more of a role than you think. Stay tuned.


You do remember Moiraine's letter to Rand explaining that she had seen the event, correct? The simplest answer is she did what she did because she already knew how it played out.

More importantly, if Moiraine had embraced the Source any earlier, Lanfear would have sensed it and destroyed her. The element of surprise was crucial for Moiraine to succeed.


Not so much. This was about the only place Sammael could be sure some random channeler wouldn't disturb his wards. That way, he could be sure that if someone channeled, it would be Rand.

As for Mashadar... you give Sammael credit for thinking it was an actual threat to him. He almost certainly didn't know of all its dangers, as it is not a thing from his Age.



Simple. Imagine a sister signs out an angreal and doesn't return it. Soon enough, she will be asked to give it back, and questioned if she doesn't. That either reveals the Black Ajah, or Mesaana's alias in the Tower. Neither of which is a small price to pay for a measly angreal.

The first one is a good explanation I agree with

As for the Moiraine thing just because she saw the future doesn't mean she needs to do what she saw. This gives her a preview and she could be even more prepared for balefire. Maybe she saw this future because any attempt to channel will lead to her losing and this is the only way possible to win, so she does it, but I find this highly unlikely because you must bear in mind Lanfear has just shielded and is now hurting Elayne and Aviendha who are both very strong (maybe she tied these off). She is also trying to shield Rand using all of her remaining strength and he is just managing to hold her off. If she somehow did get distracted and react to Moiraine, Rand would be able to shield her or fight back in some non-lethal way. More importantly there are plenty of times in the books where someone can take hold of and then channel Saidar before the other person can react, it happens all the time. Maybe I am wrong here and you can provide some evidence from the books, but it seems very unlikely Lanfear can stop Moiraine firing off her balefire.


If Sammael wanted to be sure he wasn't near another channeler he could have chosen a spot in a random forest, a desert, one of the many other abandoned ruined cities, literally anywhere not in a city/town/village or by a main road. There is literally no need to choose Shadar Logoth to be sure.

The second point is an interesting one, but it can't explain it. The book clearly states that Sammael had to drive the Trollocs and the Myrdraal to Shadar Logoth because they fear the evil there. They clearly know about it so Sammael would be told when he needs to drive them there as they won't go alone. Perhaps his ego is big enough that when he finds out he doesn't care, which is the only explanation I can think of, but this is suicidal behaviour and surely he would at least have been on the lookout for fog when he got there.

Finally, you make another interesting point I didn't think of, but I don't think it's enough. You call the angreal "measly", but the book says that the Forsaken are trying to get hold of them and remember an angreal is the only reason Rand beats Asmodean and how Rand can hold off Lanfear, so they are definitely worth getting. A Black Ajah sister can easily just lie and say they lost the angreal, hell it doesn't even have to be a good lie, "I must have dropped it" would do. They would take whatever punishment is given rather than face disobeying a Forsaken. There is no way they would be called out for being Black Ajah, the books are very explicitly clear that the Aes Sedai do anything they can to not acknowledge the existence of the Black Ajah, so this would most definitely not be their first response to someone "losing" an angreal, even if they didn't believe them.

fionwe1987
10-03-2015, 10:54 PM
As for the Moiraine thing just because she saw the future doesn't mean she needs to do what she saw. This gives her a preview and she could be even more prepared for balefire. Maybe she saw this future because any attempt to channel will lead to her losing and this is the only way possible to win, so she does it, but I find this highly unlikely because you must bear in mind Lanfear has just shielded and is now hurting Elayne and Aviendha who are both very strong (maybe she tied these off). She is also trying to shield Rand using all of her remaining strength and he is just managing to hold her off. If she somehow did get distracted and react to Moiraine, Rand would be able to shield her or fight back in some non-lethal way. More importantly there are plenty of times in the books where someone can take hold of and then channel Saidar before the other person can react, it happens all the time. Maybe I am wrong here and you can provide some evidence from the books, but it seems very unlikely Lanfear can stop Moiraine firing off her balefire.
Two things: Lanfear is an incredibly skilled channeler. She was, as you noted, doing many many things at once. More than that, though, per her vision Moiraine had placed a very powerful angreal on that wagon, and Lanfear was using it. It is this thing that Moiraine yanks out of her hand while pushing themselves towards the Doorway.

And you must also remember that Moiraine is someone who has absolute belief in the way of the Wheel. She does what she sees in her future, because she genuinely does believe the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills.

If Sammael wanted to be sure he wasn't near another channeler he could have chosen a spot in a random forest, a desert, one of the many other abandoned ruined cities, literally anywhere not in a city/town/village or by a main road. There is literally no need to choose Shadar Logoth to be sure.
But none of those places would be something that could be understood as a place Rand had marked as his own. Sammael wanted to defeat Rand at a place Rand had been in and marked. Most of those were big cities. Shadar Logoth was the one empty place that fit that criteria.

The second point is an interesting one, but it can't explain it. The book clearly states that Sammael had to drive the Trollocs and the Myrdraal to Shadar Logoth because they fear the evil there. They clearly know about it so Sammael would be told when he needs to drive them there as they won't go alone. Perhaps his ego is big enough that when he finds out he doesn't care, which is the only explanation I can think of, but this is suicidal behaviour and surely he would at least have been on the lookout for fog when he got there.
Oh he certainly knew enough about the place. I'm just saying he didn't know all the details. And definitely did not give enough credit to the danger. We see the Forsaken underestimate the dangers of this Age all the time.

Finally, you make another interesting point I didn't think of, but I don't think it's enough. You call the angreal "measly", but the book says that the Forsaken are trying to get hold of them and remember an angreal is the only reason Rand beats Asmodean and how Rand can hold off Lanfear, so they are definitely worth getting.
Not so. Mesaana specifically says they were really looking for sa'angreal, not angreal. The reason is simple. Angreal are helpful, but they don't make victory certain. A sa'angreal is the only way to overwhelmingly turn the odds in your favor.
A Black Ajah sister can easily just lie and say they lost the angreal, hell it doesn't even have to be a good lie, "I must have dropped it" would do.
It wouldn't, because Aes Sedai know that angreal are addictive, apart from being incredibly rare. No one can reasonably claim they just happened to forget where they put an angreal. As for sa'angreal, there really is no way to say "I just lost it". No one would believe it, and it would obviously be a lie.

They would take whatever punishment is given rather than face disobeying a Forsaken. There is no way they would be called out for being Black Ajah, the books are very explicitly clear that the Aes Sedai do anything they can to not acknowledge the existence of the Black Ajah, so this would most definitely not be their first response to someone "losing" an angreal, even if they didn't believe them.
First, disbelief in the Black Ajah is not something all Aes Sedai share. Second, I'm not saying this is the first thing they will wonder. But if some Aes Sedai comes up with such a transparent cock and bull story, the Hall might have her rooms searched, or question her much more deeply, which will lead to having to lie more. Eventually, that can lead to exposure.

Also, think of the psychology of this. Will any Forsaken want to show one of her underlings any sign of weakness? "Hey, useless worm, I need you to go get me something that makes me stronger, because I'm not so confident of my strength now"... I doubt most of them wanted to even hint such a thing to an Aes Sedai.

Weird Harold
10-03-2015, 11:46 PM
And you must also remember that Moiraine is someone who has absolute belief in the way of the Wheel. She does what she sees in her future, because she genuinely does believe the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills.

In this case, Moiraine acted upon a future she saw in Rhuidean. That ter'angreal shows ALL POSSIBLE futures, so the futures that Meta postulates were certainly included. Moiraine had to choose the act/future that gave the best result for the Light, not the best result for "Moiraine."

I don't recall that we're ever told what alternatives she considered worse than what happened, but we do know that she had as much free-will and choice as is ever possible in the WoT, and she chose to push Lanfear through that Doorway into 'Finn-land.

Kimon
10-04-2015, 12:22 AM
In this case, Moiraine acted upon a future she saw in Rhuidean. That ter'angreal shows ALL POSSIBLE futures, so the futures that Meta postulates were certainly included. Moiraine had to choose the act/future that gave the best result for the Light, not the best result for "Moiraine."

I don't recall that we're ever told what alternatives she considered worse than what happened, but we do know that she had as much free-will and choice as is ever possible in the WoT, and she chose to push Lanfear through that Doorway into 'Finn-land.

Her letter to Rand spoke of three paths, here's what she says about the other two...

The other two paths were much worse. Down one, Lanfear killed you. Down the other, she carried you away, and when next we saw you, you called yourself Lews Therin Telamon and were her devoted lover.

fionwe1987
10-04-2015, 03:29 AM
In this case, Moiraine acted upon a future she saw in Rhuidean. That ter'angreal shows ALL POSSIBLE futures, so the futures that Meta postulates were certainly included. Moiraine had to choose the act/future that gave the best result for the Light, not the best result for "Moiraine."

I don't recall that we're ever told what alternatives she considered worse than what happened, but we do know that she had as much free-will and choice as is ever possible in the WoT, and she chose to push Lanfear through that Doorway into 'Finn-land.

Certainly, she saw all those pathways. But down this one, Lanfear did not eliminate Rand, and Moiraine then had to trust to him to take care of things. I'm saying she probably gave no thoughts to alternatives that were good for her, because she accepts things that happen due to her philosophy.

This doesn't mean she actually has no choice. Instead, she made that choice when she chose to accept that she wouldn't question what the Wheel did.

Davian93
10-05-2015, 08:46 AM
I did. Hopefully Dav will notice and remove my original post from his reply.

Unfortunately, he just logged out. Oy.

Sorry...and I goofed for not using SPOILER tags to black out my quoted text too.

~hangs head in shame~

Davian93
10-05-2015, 08:49 AM
Two things: Lanfear is an incredibly skilled channeler

She is likely the most adept channeler to ever live as she was the most powerful female channeler ever and females are typically more skilled at weaving than men. So while Rand/LTT & Ishy might have been a couple steps above her on the power scale, she was likely a better spinner/weaver of individual threads of power.

There was a reason she was on the Bore research program...and it likely wasn't just her stunningly amazing looks.

fionwe1987
10-05-2015, 10:15 AM
She is likely the most adept channeler to ever live as she was the most powerful female channeler ever and females are typically more skilled at weaving than men. So while Rand/LTT & Ishy might have been a couple steps above her on the power scale, she was likely a better spinner/weaver of individual threads of power.

There was a reason she was on the Bore research program...and it likely wasn't just her stunningly amazing looks.

We don't know that she was THE most skilled female channeler. Graendal may have matcher or exceeded her, and Egwene might have, with time and the right education. But yes, I do expect her to be a more dexterous weaver of the Power than Rand or Ishamael.

greatwolf
10-05-2015, 05:49 PM
She is likely the most adept channeler to ever live as she was the most powerful female channeler ever and females are typically more skilled at weaving than men. So while Rand/LTT & Ishy might have been a couple steps above her on the power scale, she was likely a better spinner/weaver of individual threads of power.

There was a reason she was on the Bore research program...and it likely wasn't just her stunningly amazing looks.

Having a good looking women on a research team isn't a negative. I don't know if she was. There are some things that suggest she may not have been the most adept in the aol. But its really circumstantial. Sure she has the potential to be best spinner,but really depends how much she had applied herself. Did she ever earn a third name?

fionwe1987
10-05-2015, 07:22 PM
Having a good looking women on a research team isn't a negative. I don't know if she was. There are some things that suggest she may not have been the most adept in the aol. But its really circumstantial. Sure she has the potential to be best spinner,but really depends how much she had applied herself. Did she ever earn a third name?

Third names were given for achievement that benefitted soceity, not skill. Lanfear could have been the greatest channeler of the Age, and she still wouldn't have gotten a third name unless she did something useful with it.

What circumstantial evidence exists that she was not the most adept, btw?

Weird Harold
10-06-2015, 01:35 AM
What circumstantial evidence exists that she was not the most adept, btw?

She was a Forsaken?

All of the Forsaken were more interested in "Power" than they were in working for anything; they all had someone else to blame for their various failures

fionwe1987
10-06-2015, 02:48 AM
She was a Forsaken?

All of the Forsaken were more interested in "Power" than they were in working for anything; they all had someone else to blame for their various failures
That's proof for, not against. The Dark One prefered the best of the best for his Chosen, and Lanfear was among the six who sat at the pinnacle of their hierarchy. There was constant scheming and backstabbing, and all of the top six were way better than the others.

Weird Harold
10-06-2015, 04:15 AM
That's proof for, not against. The Dark One prefered the best of the best for his Chosen, and Lanfear was among the six who sat at the pinnacle of their hierarchy. There was constant scheming and backstabbing, and all of the top six were way better than the others.

The Dark One depended on his human minions to evaluate other minions. Lanfear was very, very good at channeling, but like all of the Forsaken, she was not as good as she could be -- or as good as she thought she was.

Lanfear, in particular, defined herself by the status of her lover -- LTT was the best at everything and therefore the only suitable consort for Lanfear.

SomeOneElse
10-06-2015, 04:51 AM
If Rand always had Callandor with him, the story would be fucked up and turn into a short quest where Rand instantly destroys every of his enemy.
This is like another question: if in AOL they could make things like Callandor and CK, how the world didn't get destroyed at all.

Also most of Rand's problems came not from Callandor, but from his inability to kill a woman.She is likely the most adept channeler to ever live as she was the most powerful

She was like 300-400 years IIRC and there were channelers who were 2 times older (700 years), I would say some of them should be more skilled.The Dark One prefered the best of the best for his Chosen

None of them were able to even make an angreal (they dependent on what they found in WT or wherever).

Terez
10-06-2015, 05:18 AM
Lanfear, in particular, defined herself by the status of her lover -- LTT was the best at everything and therefore the only suitable consort for Lanfear.
Her behavior was that of someone who was very insecure about herself. She felt the need to buttress her sense of superiority with things outside herself, like Lews Therin, and like a source of Power with the potential to eradicate the gender differences she was accustomed to.

That insecurity had to some from somewhere, and if she really was such a great researcher, she would have done something to earn that third name, because it was a status symbol and a potential source of power. That's probably why she chose research in the first place, and for all we know she was marginally better qualified than Mesaana (though the BWB says she was "not world-famous or well known, but respected by her colleagues".

She couldn't imagine that the source of that power was a sentient being. She probably thought this would be her big breakthrough, that she would finally be celebrated in society like she deserved, and that Lews Therin would come running back to her.

yks 6nnetu hing
10-06-2015, 05:53 AM
Also, as a response to #4, the Tar Valon stash of angreal, ter'angreal and sa'angreal is actually not that big. That's why they went and carted a whole bunch of the stuff away from Rhuidean - I believe there's a comment somewhere that the Rhuidean collection was at least as big, if not bigger, as was already stored in Tar Valon - though I may be misremembering things.

Anyways, as the TV supply was thoroughly indexed and monitored, it would make sense to look for supplies from less secure locations first.

Weird Harold
10-06-2015, 07:36 AM
Her behavior was that of someone who was very insecure about herself. She felt the need to buttress her sense of superiority with things outside herself, like Lews Therin, and like a source of Power with the potential to eradicate the gender differences she was accustomed to.

Lanfear was the "Psycho Cheerleader From Hell" who could only consider herself successful if on the arm of the BMOC -- and would do away with anyone who trespassed on "her man/territory/possessions."

Joram
10-08-2015, 02:42 PM
This is like another question: if in AOL they could make things like Callandor and CK, how the world didn't get destroyed at all.

That's the thing, they could make these uber powerful devices in the AOL, but they didn't. It wasn't until the world was in danger of being destroyed by the Dark One that they chose to make them. I am pretty sure it was a societal choice that they didn't make them, and that they weren't neck deep in angreal and Sa'angreal. With the knowledge and abilities they had, surely every channeler alive could have been walking around with an Angreal in their pockets, but they weren't. That had to have been purposeful.

New Futurist Man
11-04-2015, 07:50 PM
1. Lol, I remember feeling annoyed about Rand not taking full advantage of Callandor too! It always seemed very frustrating. There's nothing I can really say other than the rationalisations Rand makes in the book, not necessarily as they relate to Callandor, that the Fat Little Man angreal pretty much makes him stronger than any other channeller anyway, as he saw it. And it's a whole lot handier than Callandor to carry around. Like you say at the start of [4] " The Forsaken at one point are mentioned as trying to go after angreal but none of them have managed it yet." Exactly. So why bother carting Callandor about when he's already made an estimate that the angreal gives him comparable or superior strength in the Power over any channeller he might meet anyway?

2. Lanfear, a much more skilled and powerful channeller, would have sensed her creating the weave...?

3. I don't agree with the the third. I think Shadar Logoth was an excellent location to take Rand. Presumably Sammael staked it out beforehand, and even stationed trollocs there. Defensive positioning was Sammael's forte, so I always thought the dices were massively loaded in his favour against Rand, and like you say: he was winning until the "mysterious stranger" stepped in...

4. RAFO (sorry)

*

Generally I agree with where you're coming from. There sometimes seems a lack of characters taking full advantage of the assets present at hand. One in particular (that I can't mention here) used to annoy me no end!

However the WoT is an oddly structured and quite unique fantasy series, Rand reaches very quickly a point in strength/knowledge/resolve (sorta) that the standard hero in quest-type fantasy fiction normally doesn't reach until just before he fights the Final Boss in the last few pages. So midway through the series, when he's already proven himself against some of the Forsaken, we see Rand go into the mode of field marshall: moving himself, his armies, and other pieces and assets all over the board (Westlands) where they can be easily retrieved via Travelling, as the cat-and-mouse game against the Forsaken unravels, as frustrating as it often is. I think this is just part of how the series is designed, and not only that objects like Callandor can have this effect on the reader, but the fact characters too who are integral to each other's survival are often so far apart on some errant or that, that it can be really quite flummoxing. So in sum, I think that feeling of frustration we get is sorta how RJ intended it.

p.s. Sorry if I repeated other people's answers

Oden
06-28-2017, 02:05 PM
I am about 2 years late, but I want to point out something about #3. As it says in the post before mine, Sammael had prepared the battleground. He had trolloc on patrol to make Rand channel, telling Sammael where Rand is. Mashadar would be a tool to assist Sammael in winning. What Sammael didn't consider was that Rand would bring company that got Balefired whilst consumed by Mashadar. That a person got Balefired made Mashadar seek another victim. Because of Balefire erasing people from existence earlier in time, Mashadar had some extra time to seek out Sammael. Sammael had no time to react, since Balefire changed reality.

GonzoTheGreat
06-29-2017, 04:24 AM
Now if only Sammael had had combat experience in a war in which balefire was used by both sides ... oops!

Jalyn
06-29-2017, 02:42 PM
Now if only Sammael had had combat experience in a war in which balefire was used by both sides ... oops!

He also was aware that it was such a problematic tool that even the shadow had decided to stop using it. It doesn't seem unreasonable for him to think that it was unlikely that Rand would know it and even more unlikely that he would use it.

Demandred may have been told that Rahvin was balefired, but Sammael wasn't getting first hand information in the same way. He probably would have known that Moraine (known to him as some random female Aes Sedia) knew it, based on what happened to his Hell Hounds in TDR, but she couldn't have taught Rand even if he thought they might be connected.

Even if he had thought that Rand knew balefire and was willing to use it, he wouldn't have expected him to use it on someone other than him. He certainly wouldn't have expected him to use it to try to save someone from a horrendous death, resulting in Mashadar being released in the way it was. I'm not sure Sammael is capable of understanding Rand's choice there.

GonzoTheGreat
06-30-2017, 04:03 AM
If Sammael had kept any tabs on the Black Tower, then he could have known that Rand did indeed know balefire. After all, in LoC, Rand said quite explicitly that he didn't want to teach that to Taim. In TFoH, Rand killed a couple of Darkhounds that were probably send by Sammael using balefire. And, of course, Asmodean finds a balefire-burn in the palace in Caemlyn, at the start of the "You? No!" episode.

So there definitely was plenty of evidence around that Rand knew balefire.

Jalyn
06-30-2017, 08:27 AM
Sure, but we don't have any reason to think that Sammael did pay attention to anything that he wasn't doing himself. So, of those, only the darkhounds that he sent would be pertinent. I don't know that we have any reason to think that he was directly connected to them enough to know how they died though.

Besides, as I said, even if he did know that Rand knew balefire, that doesn't mean that Sammael had the capacity to consider it being used to save Lia.

GonzoTheGreat
06-30-2017, 09:57 AM
Rand could see Sammael. So he could have targeted him directly with balefire, which, for Sammael, wouldn't have been all that much better.

greatwolf
09-11-2017, 08:28 PM
There were some questions i thought not raise last time i was on this thread because i thought the discussion could eventually lead to spoilers.

First, Moiraine vs Lanfear. As we see in WH, having an angreal isn't gurantee of victory against Lanfear. As it turns out, Moiraine's best weapon was probably surprise. Lanfear didn't know she was there especially since she wasn't channeling. IIRC, she only embraced saidar right before she was on top of Lanfear!
Its Moiraine taking the battle to the enemy close in, where Lanfear has to be extra careful and her superior strength and even knowledge of saidar were almost gone. Doing anything else very likely would have led to her defeat or death or both. For one thing, the moment she embraced, Lanfear would have been alerted. And already holding saidar and far stronger than Moiraine, the end result would be fairly predictable. All in all, probably a good prediction/solution that Moiraine got from the Rhuidean terangreal.

#4 why not use the BA to get angreal and saangreal?
To be frank it never really occured to me. Probably because of the way the entire structure of the forces of the shadow were. All of them were very selfish and territorial! Most of the forsaken ddin't know who headed the BA! And they probably knew that Mesaana was in the WT and that Ishy likely created the BA. So trying to use it might be reported and lead either Ishamael or Mesaana coming after them. At least that's what i think.
And i think they were searching in TAR for specific items with little risk.
I'm not sure this is satisfactory, but its basically what i could come up with. Unless someone has better ideas?
And i suppose meta123 has finished the series by now?

GonzoTheGreat
09-12-2017, 04:15 AM
TAs it turns out, Moiraine's best weapon was probably surprise.
"Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again."

Maybe Moiraine should've thought about it a bit more before acting too. :p

Its Moiraine taking the battle to the enemy close in, where Lanfear has to be extra careful and her superior strength and even knowledge of saidar were almost gone. Doing anything else very likely would have led to her defeat or death or both. For one thing, the moment she embraced, Lanfear would have been alerted. And already holding saidar and far stronger than Moiraine, the end result would be fairly predictable. All in all, probably a good prediction/solution that Moiraine got from the Rhuidean terangreal.
Probably. However, it is once again noticeable that she (or you) didn't really think of using a non-Power based attack method.
Punch Lanfear in the solar plexus, and she is a bit distracted for a while, no matter how good she can channel.
Poke her eyes out, and she might be even less effective. Then again, she may have practised fighting in the dark against opponents with infra-red goggles, so this isn't an entirely guaranteed approach. Which brings up the question: would such goggles help you to see the various components of the OP, or not?