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sleepinghour
10-11-2015, 05:20 PM
Since a fair portion of the Companion is now available at Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Wheel-Time-Companion-History-Bestselling/dp/0765314614/) through the "look inside the book" feature, and the other preview thread was getting long, here's a new thread to discuss the encyclopedia's contents.

Please note that spoilers will run rampant here, so this is not the place for those who wish to remain unspoiled until the entire book is out.

sleepinghour
10-11-2015, 06:19 PM
Possible errors and inconsistencies:


Adeleas' entry says she and Vandene retired in 970 NE to Tifan's Well in Arafel. However, TPoD chapter 38 implies it was 70 years ago (around 930 NE). (p19)

Aviendha's strength is said to be 11(2), with no mentions of having a greater potential, though the books claim her potential was equal to Elayne and Egwene's, 8(+5). The + sign is also missing; it should be +2. (p90)

Cadsuane's strength is said to be 5(+8) in her own and Tamela's entry, but 9(+4) in Nicola's. (p532, 721)

Losaine's strength is said to be 22(15). Level 22 on the new list corresponds to 10 on the old one. (p430)

Metarra's strength is said to be 9(4), "roughly equal to Egwene and Elayne" who are in fact one level above her. This may not be an error depending on whether it refers to their current strength, or "roughly" includes the strength level above. The + sign is also missing; it should be +4. (p486)

Sorilea's strength is said to be 57(35). Level 57 on the new list corresponds to 45 on the old one.



If anyone notices other inconsistencies, please let me know and I'll add them to the list.

Davian93
10-11-2015, 07:09 PM
I kinda wish they'd lock it down...they're giving away way too much of the book with the preview.

fionwe1987
10-11-2015, 07:14 PM
Possible errors and inconsistencies:


Aviendha's strength is said to be 11(+2), with no mentions of having a greater potential, though the books claim her potential was equal to Elayne and Egwene's, 8(+5). (p90)

Cadsuane's strength is said to be 5(+8) in her own and Tamela's entry, but 9(+4) in Nicola's. (p125, 532, 721)


If anyone notices other inconsistencies, please let me know and I'll add them to the list.
Interesting that Cadsuane's strength shows so much variation in the book itself. I can't believe they'd miss something so obvious.

sleepinghour
10-11-2015, 07:57 PM
I kinda wish they'd lock it down...they're giving away way too much of the book with the preview.

Yeah, I was surprised by how much was available, and several weeks before release date. I'm guessing this is very much an unintentional side effect of Amazon's preview and search feature. When it comes to regular books, there isn't much to gain from getting bits and pieces. But in the case of an encyclopedia, you can extract quite a lot of information from those pieces. However, I don't think it's a coincidence that most of the important entries (Rand, Moiraine, most Forsaken, Perrin, Lan, Egwene) are excluded from the previews. So they probably took some precautions to keep all the juicy tidbits from being spoiled early.

Interesting that Cadsuane's strength shows so much variation in the book itself. I can't believe they'd miss something so obvious.

To be fair, it sounds like RJ had different strengths for Cadsuane, so they settled on one, but forgot to adjust Nicola's entry where it's mentioned her potential was equal to Cadsuane. But I think it would have made more sense to go with the lower strength, as this is more consistent with what's been said in the books.

Another, very minor issue which is mainly noticeable when you make an Excel spreadsheet with the different lists is that a few strengths don't match up. For example, Sorilea's strength is said to be 57/35, but 57 should be 45 in the old list. So, I'm guessing they might have had Sorilea listed as a 57 somewhere and miscalculated the other number. There are a few cases like this.

(Not trying to make bloopers/complaints the focus of this thread, as that would ruin all the fun, but it's difficult to make sense of the OP strength list without taking the tiny inconsistencies into account.)

Southpaw2012
10-11-2015, 08:24 PM
I kinda wish they'd lock it down...they're giving away way too much of the book with the preview.

I'm amazed at how much they actually show. I would understand previewing entries for "A" or something like that, but to go through the whole thing with a little bit of everything is kinda shocking.

fionwe1987
10-11-2015, 09:01 PM
Another, very minor issue which is mainly noticeable when you make an Excel spreadsheet with the different lists is that a few strengths don't match up. For example, Sorilea's strength is said to be 57/35, but 57 should be 45 in the old list. So, I'm guessing they might have had Sorilea listed as a 57 somewhere and miscalculated the other number. There are a few cases like this.

Yeah, that's why I've been exclusively looking at the first number, which is from the new list. The old list is a curiosity, it doesn't much help if we have to rank all the characters.

Terez
10-11-2015, 11:34 PM
I kinda wish they'd lock it down...they're giving away way too much of the book with the preview.
I thought they had learned their lesson with the AMOL prologue which we pretty much pieced together from preview searches. They actually served us a copyright notice for that because it was a team effort and had to be done on a Google Doc.

Maybe they thought we wouldn't make the effort for the Companion. Maybe they don't care as much this time. It's hard to believe they forgot, though.

Davian93
10-12-2015, 12:08 AM
I thought they had learned their lesson with the AMOL prologue which we pretty much pieced together from preview searches. They actually served us a copyright notice for that because it was a team effort and had to be done on a Google Doc.

Maybe they thought we wouldn't make the effort for the Companion. Maybe they don't care as much this time. It's hard to believe they forgot, though.

It feels like we could probably piece together 75% of it if we wanted to.

I don't see the point really as it'll be available in a few weeks anyway but whatever.

Just seems like it'd hurt book sales.

sleepinghour
10-12-2015, 07:49 AM
Yeah, that's why I've been exclusively looking at the first number, which is from the new list. The old list is a curiosity, it doesn't much help if we have to rank all the characters.

Thing is, we don't know which of those two numbers is correct. If it says 57(35), is Sorilea's actual strength supposed to be 57(45) or 47(35)? Since it's Sorilea, I'm guessing the lowest level is the right one, but we don't know for sure. There are a few other cases like this where either number could be right.

fionwe1987
10-12-2015, 09:32 AM
Thing is, we don't know which of those two numbers is correct. If it says 57(35), is Sorilea's actual strength supposed to be 57(45) or 47(35)? Since it's Sorilea, I'm guessing the lowest level is the right one, but we don't know for sure. There are a few other cases like this where either number could be right.

It is definitely the lowest one. If she were level 47, she wouldn't be "so weak as to make Daigian look moderately strong", since Daigian is level 45.

C Rutherford
10-12-2015, 10:03 AM
Whichever level it is, I still find it odd that there are plenty of levels below Sorilea. I can see maybe five between her and Morgase but fifteen? Or more? Too bad we can't find out why Jordan saw so many variations at that end of the spectrum and yet had such a tight race at the top as it were. Even if you take into account the addition with the superpowered women, it seems rather narrow in some ways.

Terez
10-12-2015, 11:34 AM
Whichever level it is, I still find it odd that there are plenty of levels below Sorilea. I can see maybe five between her and Morgase but fifteen? Or more?
In the notes, RJ was considering a range of strengths for Sorilea, between 51(39) and 60(48), but he noted that she was probably "toward the bottom" of that range. We did not see a strength level noted for Morgase, but in his COT/KOD notes he said that 57(45) is the level where the ability to lift anything with the Power drops to a feather, so we figured that was about the strength he had in mind for Morgase, maybe a little lower.

C Rutherford
10-12-2015, 12:02 PM
Thank you very much. I greatly appreciate the insight you have and hopefully will keep providing. I actually like hearing about the discrepancies like this as it provides a view towards the thought processes of RJ and adds to the fact that since he never really finished the series as it should have been unfortunately and wasn't really given the chance to even tackle a project like this, it provides the type of legacy I think he and the series then deserve if that makes sense. So much of my late childhood and early adulthood was given over to exploring all the what ifs and red herrings and clues and all the underpinings to what I still consider my favorite fantasy world. So if I cannot have the definitive Robert Jordan guide/encycopledia, I would rather enjoy what we get and spiced with such tidbits as you feel proper to divulge.

I hope to explore the notes myself but even more I am hoping that the creation process is a legacy that should not be destroyed or kept to a few even if that few someday includes myself. I'd really like to see someone tackle the variances in a more essay approach to matters and characters and segments of the whole series that either transitioned into being foundational elements or were discarded or transformed from the original in such a way they are unrecognizable when they became part of the series.

Again thank you very much.

Just speaking for myself, but I also think Jordan likely made up his mind as he wrote and maybe just did not go back and take the time to update the notes. Things like these strength issues, I will still rely on the series as the 'canon'. For me, Cadsuane is just below Elayne because the series places the majority of evidence in that regard. Sorilea when coupled with the Kin members who fall below the Tower's admission criteria makes me place her towards the bottom of the scale than what the guide now seems to say. Meilyn's age I find problematic. Vandene and Adeleas' retirement I find problematic.

But I think I am okay with that. I think that discrepancies like this show that maybe they are not cleaned up too much and that Jordan's creative processes are allowed to peek through on occasion.

sleepinghour
10-12-2015, 01:32 PM
Vandene and Adeleas' retirement I find problematic.

Just wondering, what was the issue with Vandene and Adeleas' retirement?

sleepinghour
10-12-2015, 02:36 PM
Disappointingly, Valan Luca's entry remains cloaked in mystery. Only by searching for "well-turned calves" was I able to uncover a few, tantalizing sentences from it. (FYI, the only other entry that particular search term brought forth was Toram Riatin's, which doesn't bode well for Galad's entry, I regret to say.) Aside from his well-turned calves, we also learn that Valan Luca was six feet tall and had broad shoulders.

I had also expected more mentions of pillow friendships, but Bera and Kiruna has been the only surprise, so far. Seonid was confirmed to be a lesbian, which settles that debate.

Terez
10-12-2015, 02:47 PM
I had also expected more mentions of pillow friendships, but Bera and Kiruna has been the only surprise, so far.
I don't know if "surprise" is really the right word. Though I did get the impression that there was a gulf between them in terms of attractiveness. I wonder if channelers are just instinctively attracted (in all ways) to people whose strength equals their own.

I considered writing an alternative timeline fanfic set at the end of the 2nd Age and shipping Lanfear and Semirhage. I think they would be good for each other.

Terez
10-12-2015, 02:55 PM
Thank you very much. I greatly appreciate the insight you have and hopefully will keep providing. I actually like hearing about the discrepancies like this as it provides a view towards the thought processes of RJ and adds to the fact that since he never really finished the series as it should have been unfortunately and wasn't really given the chance to even tackle a project like this, it provides the type of legacy I think he and the series then deserve if that makes sense. So much of my late childhood and early adulthood was given over to exploring all the what ifs and red herrings and clues and all the underpinings to what I still consider my favorite fantasy world. So if I cannot have the definitive Robert Jordan guide/encycopledia, I would rather enjoy what we get and spiced with such tidbits as you feel proper to divulge.
As a fellow HCFF I am of course happy to divulge everything I saw because none of it is really off limits. I am only constrained by two things: 1) the publication of the Companion (i.e. I have to wait for things to be revealed there) and 2) Fair Use restraints (i.e. I can't put the files online or quote too extensively). I am not interested in info-dumping right after the Companion comes out but I will clarify where appropriate and perhaps reveal other things as time goes on.

I hope to explore the notes myself but even more I am hoping that the creation process is a legacy that should not be destroyed or kept to a few even if that few someday includes myself. I'd really like to see someone tackle the variances in a more essay approach to matters and characters and segments of the whole series that either transitioned into being foundational elements or were discarded or transformed from the original in such a way they are unrecognizable when they became part of the series.
I am looking forward to doing something like this but I am taking advantage of the meantime to go HCFF on another topic. Linda will no doubt be writing something as well, but I have no idea what restraints she has placed on herself regarding the material she was given.

sleepinghour
10-12-2015, 04:17 PM
I don't know if "surprise" is really the right word. Though I did get the impression that there was a gulf between them in terms of attractiveness.

Yeah, they seemed a bit of an odd couple in that Kiruna was the beautiful, queenly type (and was in fact the sister of a King) while Bera was always described as looking like a farmwife. Apparently they were pillow friends when they were younger and went on to men exclusively, but remained close friends. So they remind a bit of Moiraine and Siuan.

I wonder if channelers are just instinctively attracted (in all ways) to people whose strength equals their own.

I considered writing an alternative timeline fanfic set at the end of the 2nd Age and shipping Lanfear and Semirhage. I think they would be good for each other.

Well, Lanfear would enjoy being part of a "power couple," and Semirhage would be just too terrifying for most everyone else. :) Interestingly, Mesaana's entry mentioned a "close and rather peculiar" relationship with Demandred and Semirhage, which probably shouldn't be interpreted as a wacky threesome romance, but was an interesting tidbit nonetheless.

C Rutherford
10-12-2015, 05:54 PM
Just wondering, what was the issue with Vandene and Adeleas' retirement?

In the Adeleas entry it says she and Vandene went into retirement in 970 NE. Yet in the books it says they retired 70 years prior (about 930 NE). Lots of sisters are alive to remember 30 years ago. Heck Romanda didn't stun anyone when she came out of her retirement which was only a couple years off and she is older. The description about them being a secret resource of Moiraine's makes more sense if they retired 70 years ago in big part because so many older sisters who would have known them and been contemporaries were apparently killed off by the Black Ajah. That nature didn't take care of that is.

I do think it is interesting that Cetalia was killed by the Black Ajah. Also it looks like 981 saw three sitters needed which might also point to at least part of the Black Ajah's spree.

fionwe1987
10-12-2015, 07:38 PM
In the Adeleas entry it says she and Vandene went into retirement in 970 NE. Yet in the books it says they retired 70 years prior (about 930 NE). Lots of sisters are alive to remember 30 years ago. Heck Romanda didn't stun anyone when she came out of her retirement which was only a couple years off and she is older. The description about them being a secret resource of Moiraine's makes more sense if they retired 70 years ago in big part because so many older sisters who would have known them and been contemporaries were apparently killed off by the Black Ajah. That nature didn't take care of that is.

But Vandene and Adeleas weren't prominent powerful sisters. While the 70 vs. 30 thing is a discrepancy, it doesn't change a lot in book. Cadsuane was seen 20 years ago, yet everyone is shocked to see her alive.

I do think it is interesting that Cetalia was killed by the Black Ajah. Also it looks like 981 saw three sitters needed which might also point to at least part of the Black Ajah's spree.
Wow, this is in the Companion? Can I get some key words so I can search for the right text?

Not surprising though. She was the head of the Blue network. Siuan herself points out in NS how she might be able to track the Black's activity if they go around killing men and boys. Who better than the head of the network to sift through the patterns, and arrive at the exact same conclusion Siuan did? In fact, she may well have gone to Sierin Vayu, who already had an inkling of some crazy stuff happening from Siuan's note.

The fact that a Blue then stepped in a and so effectively ended the pogroms adds to this theory, I feel.

Terez
10-12-2015, 07:50 PM
Yeah, they seemed a bit of an odd couple in that Kiruna was the beautiful, queenly type (and was in fact the sister of a King) while Bera was always described as looking like a farmwife. Apparently they were pillow friends when they were younger and went on to men exclusively, but remained close friends. So they remind a bit of Moiraine and Siuan.
Definitely. Cue Perrin:

By smell he would have said Bera or Kiruna was the leader; Bera, he thought, though it was close and sometimes seemed to shift the other way for a time.
So it seems the farmwife leads among them. :D

Well, Lanfear would enjoy being part of a "power couple," and Semirhage would be just too terrifying for most everyone else. :) Interestingly, Mesaana's entry mentioned a "close and rather peculiar" relationship with Demandred and Semirhage, which probably shouldn't be interpreted as a wacky threesome romance, but was an interesting tidbit nonetheless.
Yeah, I tend to doubt that. I suspect it was peculiar because they could tolerate working with each other for so long. All three of them probably had a pretty good sense of how easily they could be picked off if they worked alone, and that made them different than most of the other Forsaken. They were able to persist without the power struggles that handicapped other potential alliances among the Forsaken because they were, in a sense, very pragmatic people.

fionwe1987
10-12-2015, 08:22 PM
Talking of Kiruna, I was able to read some more snippets on her. Apparently, she tried to run away and join the Tower, twice when she was 12, and twice more when she was 13. The second time, she actually made it to the Tower, but was sent back because she was too young. She was finally accepted at 14 because of her determination, and apparently her fierce desire to be Aes Sedai was "well known" in the Tower.

Also, the Red Ajah has a secret ceremony called the Grand Emergence, where they walk through a warded place, and still speak in a guarded way. It was a plan for seizing the Tower, "should the need arise".

Interestingly, Katerine joined the BA in 987 NE, 5 years after she was raised to the shawl, so she wasn't marked out by Merean or anything.

Merean was Andoran, and had a Warder early on, but never bonded another after he died. Rumor was that she loved him, but he had been a Darkfriend, and she didn't find it easy to get a replacement and without the Three Oaths, never found the need.

Merean, incidentally, killed Larelle soon after Moiraine and Siuan fled. Larelle was one of Tamra's searchers, though neither Moiraine or Siuan knew this to save her. This confirms that there were more women that Siuan or Moiraine knew of. They all seem to have been very strong in the Power, apart from being adherents of the Law.

The Mistress of Novices, incidentally, could be chosen by the Hall and forced on an Amyrlin. She had absolute authority over her charges, and could defy even the Amyrlin Seat, or the lesser consensus of the Hall. Only the Greater Consensus could overrule her. This is interesting, because it explains why Elaida had to order Silviana's arrest. If she allowed her to continue as MoN, she'd need a Greater Consensus from the Hall to keep Egwene imprisoned, which she was highly unlikely to get. So she substituted Katerine for the post.

Lelaine: She was only named First Selector after the Tower split, meaning the previous head died. She apparently was fond of Logain as a "fierce dog she had tamed". Whoa. Also, she and her faction tried to use tel'aran'rhiod to spy on Rand.

C Rutherford
10-12-2015, 09:14 PM
But Vandene and Adeleas weren't prominent powerful sisters. While the 70 vs. 30 thing is a discrepancy, it doesn't change a lot in book. Cadsuane was seen 20 years ago, yet everyone is shocked to see her alive.

And Romanda is not. And the matter of shock is not the point. The establishment of them as 70 years in retirement is. It is who they are in the books from the time Moiraine visits them to the time they reveal a significant aspect in the Garenia reveal. You might not think so. But I do. and I've consulted the judges and that is what matters ;) For me.

I simply don't think I'm going to throw away a discrepancy as such or mattering as much because someone else thinks it matters or doesn't matter that much. No offense. And I expect you will use your own judgement for yourself in the same manner.

Plus I think some of the shock is simply due to the fact that some assumed she was dead because she had been quiet for so long. Certainly more than two dozen sisters who took Logain knew she was alive more than a year before she shows up in the books. Unless she wore a mask and rode off into the sunset.



Wow, this is in the Companion? Can I get some key words so I can search for the right text?



Err....Cetalia Delarme? Didn't even need to do a search when I read it. Page 150. Was available just scrolling down the pages for preview.

Davian93
10-12-2015, 09:35 PM
I'm fairly disappointed that there are so many apparent mistakes in the Companion so far. You'd think the editing would be nearly perfect after this many years.

fionwe1987
10-12-2015, 10:03 PM
And Romanda is not. And the matter of shock is not the point. The establishment of them as 70 years in retirement is. It is who they are in the books from the time Moiraine visits them to the time they reveal a significant aspect in the Garenia reveal. You might not think so. But I do. and I've consulted the judges and that is what matters ;) For me.

I simply don't think I'm going to throw away a discrepancy as such or mattering as much because someone else thinks it matters or doesn't matter that much. No offense. And I expect you will use your own judgement for yourself in the same manner.

Plus I think some of the shock is simply due to the fact that some assumed she was dead because she had been quiet for so long. Certainly more than two dozen sisters who took Logain knew she was alive more than a year before she shows up in the books. Unless she wore a mask and rode off into the sunset.

Whoa hold your horses. I didn't tell you what to think, anywhere. I only said that just because they retired 30 years ago doesn't mean they wouldn't be forgotten.

Weiramon
10-13-2015, 01:40 AM
Burn my soul, that ugly whelp of the Blacksmith's Asha'man wasn't so young as some of the peasants here claimed.

fionwe1987
10-13-2015, 02:08 AM
Read some snippets about the BA. Apparently, Ishamael came up with the name as a joke. Apparently many BA members have been irked that they don't get to control all Darkfriends. There have been periodic attempts to achieve this, but the Darkfriends fight back with knives and poison.

The last attempt, apparently, was particularly disastrous. The BA, specifically, some members of the Supreme Council, were forced to eat humble pie in a meeting, and had to accept their votes being reduced from five to one (whatever that means).

Also, they apparently keep watch not just for potential Novice and Accepted who could become members, but Aes Sedai too. And if an Aes Sedai asked around about the BA, then the watch was increased.If she found any trace of them, she was brought before them, shielded, stripped and bound to increase the sense of vulnerability. Then, two knives were held at either end of her throat, and a mirror was placed in front of her so she could see her life's blood drained away if she was cut.

Then, she was woken up, and asked if she wanted to join. If she said no, they'd use the OP to question her about who she had talked to. If she said yes, the Oath Rod was placed in her hand and she was made to forswear her Oaths.

I put all this in because we can be pretty sure this is what Verin was faced with. She asked around, and was put in a life or death situation.

fionwe1987
10-13-2015, 02:31 AM
The three BA Oaths:

1) I shall obey all commands given by those placed above me in service to the Great Lord.

2) I shall prepare for the day of the Great Lord's return

3) I shall hold close the secrets of the Black Ajah, unto the hour of my death.

Oath 3 seems different from what Verin said in tGS:

“I swear not to betray the Great Lord, to keep my secrets until the hour of my death.”

Oath 1 should remove any reason for the Forsaken to force the Aes Sedai, but I guess the "in service to the Great Lord" part gives them a lot of wiggle room.

Oath no. 2 seems pretty useless on a daily basis. But maybe that's why Jarna felt it was okay to kill the Dragon Reborn without permission.

Terez
10-13-2015, 03:06 AM
The Black Ajah oaths were already revealed in a Q&A Maria did for Waygate.

sleepinghour
10-13-2015, 06:59 AM
In the Adeleas entry it says she and Vandene went into retirement in 970 NE. Yet in the books it says they retired 70 years prior (about 930 NE).

Good catch. And it was specifically mentioned in TPoD because of Zarya Alkaese.
Adeleas gave a satisfied nod. "This is not Garenia Rosoinde," she said. "I finally recognized her. Zarya Alkaese, a novice who ran away just before Vandene and I decided to retire and write our history of the world." [...]
Elayne was recalling something she had heard this woman say the first time she met her. The meaning had not registered then, but now it did. How would Zarya face novice white again after living as her own woman for seventy years?
—Path of Daggers chapter 28


I'll add it to the list of possible errors/inconsistencies.

Err....Cetalia Delarme? Didn't even need to do a search when I read it. Page 150. Was available just scrolling down the pages for preview.

It seems like everybody's getting different pages. I get 92, 139, then 156.

sleepinghour
10-13-2015, 10:34 AM
As an aside, there seems to be one or two "easter eggs" in the book. You'll know it when you see it. This thread is clearly marked as a spoiler thread, and everyone is free to decide for themselves what to reveal or not. But I personally feel it would be a shame to spoil what is clearly meant to be a fun surprise, so I hope people won't until the book is out.

fionwe1987
10-13-2015, 10:50 AM
As an aside, there seems to be one or two "easter eggs" in the book. You'll know it when you see it. This thread is clearly marked as a spoiler thread, and everyone is free to decide for themselves what to reveal or not. But I personally feel it would be a shame to spoil what is clearly meant to be a fun surprise, so I hope people won't until the book is out.

Interesting. Mind giving a clue on how we can see it, if we want to? Like a search term or something.

C Rutherford
10-13-2015, 01:09 PM
Whoa hold your horses. I didn't tell you what to think, anywhere. I only said that just because they retired 30 years ago doesn't mean they wouldn't be forgotten.

Sorry the horses are out and gamboling in a frisk manner. Seriously, though I'm a bit over sensitive to people dismissing something I find interesting as "doesn't change a lot in the books". That is fine as a subjective matter which I am sure you meant, but it came off as authoritarian in regard. Why do you or I or anyone else get to determine such as it stands for others? I'm sure you never meant that at all.

I let the horses run free though because that is what my horses do.

fionwe1987
10-13-2015, 04:19 PM
According to the Companion, Bela "unaccountably survived", and in the first years of the 4th Age, gave birth to a colt and filly,then retired.

:mad: Not happy with this obvious bit of fan service, especially since it really badly goes against the symbolic link between Egwene and Bela.

GonzoTheGreat
10-13-2015, 05:25 PM
According to the Companion, Bela "unaccountably survived", and in the first years of the 4th Age, gave birth to a colt and filly,then retired.

:mad: Not happy with this obvious bit of fan service, especially since it really badly goes against the symbolic link between Egwene and Bela.
Maybe Egwene did the same.
Does make one wonder who was the father of the kids, of course.

Davian93
10-13-2015, 06:22 PM
According to the Companion, Bela "unaccountably survived", and in the first years of the 4th Age, gave birth to a colt and filly,then retired.

:mad: Not happy with this obvious bit of fan service, especially since it really badly goes against the symbolic link between Egwene and Bela.

Well, it does fit in with the quite popular theory that Bela is indeed the Creator's avatar in Randland set there to counter the efforts of Shaidar Haran...

So there's that. Bela was only in the Two Rivers to look after Rand during his youth to begin with.

Rand al'Fain
10-13-2015, 09:18 PM
Well, it does fit in with the quite popular theory that Bela is indeed the Creator's avatar in Randland set there to counter the efforts of Shaidar Haran...

So there's that. Bela was only in the Two Rivers to look after Rand during his youth to begin with.

And then made sure various important persons to Rand (in one way or another) did what they needed to do. And ensured that Rand's sword ended the DO's avatar, Narg, before Narg could have his way with Rand.

C Rutherford
10-14-2015, 11:15 AM
Some things that seem to be missing that I hope to be pleasantly surprised come three weeks.

1.I have yet to see anything that shows where those most recently vanished nations are on the map. Goaban seems to be the same entry that is in the books and I think Mosara and Irenvelle are not even listed (I have yet to get a entry listed for them, let alone read it).

From what I could read of Goaban it seems like it was lifted right from the glossary. I cannot remember if Irenvelle and Mosara were mentioned in the books or were added for the Big White Book. If the latter it goes back to certain entries solely being

2.The Blue Sitter killed in Elaida's coup is only mentioned as that. So she will continue to be nameless. Both Anlee and Eadgyth I think I've read and neither are mentioned as being that Sitter. In fact Anlee and Aeldra (Tamra's second Keeper) neither have any new tidbits iirc.

3.Some odd omissions of strength to some sisters. I did not make note of the actual sisters but did notice in perusing what I could and at the time thought it a bit odd we have the strengths of other sisters I thought were less prominent.

Terez
10-14-2015, 06:03 PM
If it wasn't in RJ's notes, likely it won't be in the Encyclopedia.

C Rutherford
10-14-2015, 06:27 PM
I've already read enough for two supposed full entries by others (plus yourself) to indicate that it is hardly a matter of what isn't in the notes being put in the Guide. In fact I'm wondering if we will see some outcry when readers realize Sanderson might have made some of his own stuff up! (/joking) Simply because of what isn't in the Guide.

I think the real rhetorical question for most will be what is in the notes that isn't in the Guide? Due to contradiction or an vagueness editing can't get around. Or simply keeping it a single volume. and of course the area 51 of the material that was kept private. Grassy knolls will be picnic'd upon.

Terez
10-14-2015, 06:41 PM
I've already read enough for two supposed full entries by others (plus yourself) to indicate that it is hardly a matter of what isn't in the notes being put in the Guide.
Well, that is, excepting what they constructed for the last three books. But I'm talking about things like missing power levels. If RJ didn't note the power level himself, it probably won't be in the Companion.

sleepinghour
10-14-2015, 07:34 PM
I think the real rhetorical question for most will be what is in the notes that isn't in the Guide?

At one point, Brandon quoted a section from RJ's notes (http://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=943#13) where it says Lan was to become King in the western Borderlands and the Blight retreat from much of Malkier. So far, it doesn't seem like this is mentioned at all in the Companion (I have read the entire entry for Malkier, though not all of Lan's and Nynaeve's). I did get the last few paragraphs of Lan's entry, which don't even mention much of what he did post-KoD. There are only three sentences saying, in a very TL;DR fashion, that Lan's bond transferred to Nynaeve, then he fought in the Last Battle and killed Demandred.

So, to me, this seems like it's going to be one of the biggest disappointments: that RJ did reveal a few things about the future that don't seem like they're going to end up in the Companion.

fionwe1987
10-14-2015, 08:23 PM
At one point, Brandon...
Good catch. Pity none of the future stuff is in, but I suspect they didn't want to put all that in and check to see it isn't contradicted by the books. I do hope we get to see it all someday.

Btw... was the Bela thing one of the easter eggs you mentioned?

sleepinghour
10-15-2015, 12:52 PM
Dragonmount has posted a review (http://www.dragonmount.com/index.php/News/book-news/wheel-of-time-companion-review-r896) of the Companion, which confirms there won't be anything about what happened after the Last Battle.
But none of these extra details shed any light on what happened after the Last Battle. If you were hoping for, say, confirmation on whether or not anything from Aviendha’s visions came true, you aren’t going to find it here. Team Jordan says very firmly in the foreword that this volume is meant as a companion and reference to the novels, so there’s nothing in it that moves any of the plot, characters or setting beyond what we already know.

Which lines up with what we've seen in the previews. So far, any new details have been about past events or already existing character traits such as OP strength levels. I'm fairly certain I got most of Nesune's entry, and made a few additional searches for her name with or without "library" attached, but Min's viewing of her founding a library was not mentioned anywhere I could see. Personally, the tidbits I found most interesting were the few that did give food for thought about the future, such as Marin al'Vere and her other daughters being learners. One or two tidbits also debunk certain theories fans have had about future events, such as Calian and Shivan being reborn as Elayne's twins; apparently Calian and Shivan were already reborn before the Last Battle.

Lan becoming King in the Borderlands feels like a glaring omission particularly as Brandon clearly had this in mind when writing AMoL and planted some seeds to explain why, in RJ's words, "Malkier might have a lot of uniting to do with the western end of the Borderlands under Lan, who will find himself made king out there."

“Gather the High Guard of Malkier,” Lan said. That was what his protectors were calling themselves. It was an old Malkieri term for the King’s battlefield guard. Lan wasn’t certain what to make of the fact that Prince Kaisel, who was from Kandor, considered himself one.

Many of Lan’s Malkieri had very little true Malkier blood—they came to him as an honor more than anything else. The Prince was another matter. Lan had asked him and his companions if they should be swearing to a foreign king, no matter how friendly. The only reply he’d received was, “Malkier represents the Borderlands in this war, Dai Shan.”
—A Memory of Light p. 439

So some of the Borderlander royalty already took the first step to uniting under Lan by swearing to him; considering how seriously they take their oaths, there might be some unintended consequences to this. Perhaps it will also come down to the fact that the Borderlands were ravaged to a degree where they may end up wanting Lan to remain in charge since he symbolizes the concept of the Borderlands triumphing over the Shadow and returning from the brink of death, which may be needed to inspire people to rebuild their countries instead of giving up and moving south. So it doesn't make sense to leave out this tidbit from RJ's notes; it explains more of and offers more closure to Lan's storyline than the hints we got in AMoL.

All of this also paves the way for Lan/Nynaeve and Perrin/Faile becoming the main power players in the region, which goes with the general theme of most Randland countries being ruled by the main characters and their kin/close allies. Tuon/Mat, Elayne, Berelain/Galad, Darlin/Caraline (Emond's Fielders and Damodreds seem slated to become the Habsburgs of Randland...ubiquitous and married into the throne).

Btw... was the Bela thing one of the easter eggs you mentioned?

It was, but I suppose the horse has left the barn now... It just seemed like something Harriet likely intended to be a nice surprise for fans as they read the book, as some people will undoubtedly prefer the happier ending.

Terez
10-15-2015, 01:14 PM
Bela's death was a matter of some controversy, as Brandon had promised she would survive the series, and Harriet overruled him.

fionwe1987
10-15-2015, 01:43 PM
Bela's death was a matter of some controversy, as Brandon had promised she would survive the series, and Harriet overruled him.

:mad: Seriously, I wish they'd made up their minds and stuck to it. Bela had a heroic and affecting death in the series. Certainly, as horses go, she had as great a sendoff as any I've read. This walking it back just cheapens the whole thing.

Terez
10-15-2015, 01:50 PM
I gather Harriet finds it amusing to piss off fans who care about stuff like this by making light of it. I'm not particularly bothered, but mostly because I'm past being bothered.

fionwe1987
10-15-2015, 03:03 PM
I gather Harriet finds it amusing to piss off fans who care about stuff like this by making light of it. I'm not particularly bothered, but mostly because I'm past being bothered.

Fair enough, I guess. I don't want Bela to be dead or anything. In fact, I suspect she would have pissed off a lot more fans by having Bela remain dead, and definitely stating she was not the Creator.

sleepinghour
10-15-2015, 03:03 PM
Regarding the paternity of Bela's offspring, Tai'daishar can be ruled out as he's officially a gelding again. So we must direct our suspicions elsewhere.

Lan did promise Mandarb he could have his pick of mares, and poor Aldieb's been stuck in the stables of the Sun Palace for a good while now. I suppose it also makes for a certain poignant thematic parallel that Mandarb, having been long separated from Aldieb, succumbed to the wiles of a Two Rivers brunette.

As the offspring of two Last Battle heavy-weights, it would not surprise me to learn the colt and filly were named Calian and Shivan and destined for greatness.

Terez
10-15-2015, 03:04 PM
Fair enough, I guess. I don't want Bela to be dead or anything. In fact, I suspect she would have pissed off a lot more fans by having Bela remain dead, and definitely stating she was not the Creator.
This way she gets to piss off everyone.

fionwe1987
10-15-2015, 03:12 PM
Just read a snippet that after you become a Black Ajah member, you are given a number of tasks. While they are none of them critical, how you handle them is watched closely, and has a major influence on how far you advance in the organization.

It seems the BA were a better meritocracy than the rest of the Tower. Wonder what Verin's tasks were. She must have had to do a lot of ghastly stuff with utmost competence to make sure she got all the info she needed, poor thing.

C Rutherford
10-15-2015, 06:12 PM
Lan did promise Mandarb he could have his pick of mares, and poor Aldieb's been stuck in the stables of the Sun Palace for a good while now. I suppose it also makes for a certain poignant thematic parallel that Mandarb, having been long separated from Aldieb, succumbed to the wiles of a Two Rivers brunette.



Despite the fact that Bela and her fate is something I could not care less about*, this made me laugh!

The various references to Verin being Black Ajah made me realize just how big this is in a way. It was not something Jordan got a chance to tell us and probably the biggest thing that comes out had the series been truly cut short when he died. Imagine Tor was unable to make the three posthumous add-ons work contractually. But this reveal was truly tied to other entries in a way that shows how big Jordan saw it. How he must have chortled over all the Purple Ajah stuff!

*To be fair I'm sure the keen interest I have in matters like strength levels, locations on the map of lost states and the need to know the Ajah of every single Aes Sedai mentioned in the books (even those not by name) is not no shared by the majority of others but is something many many fans could also not care about any less !

fionwe1987
10-16-2015, 06:28 AM
Some more "future" stuff from Alivia's entry:

"Many people found her intimidating, but Sharina had her measure, and became her friend"

"She had no particular interest in being Aes Sedai, and would be surprised to learn that she had no choice, under the agreement that would be made between the Aes Sedai and the Kin"

So looks like that agreement will happen, and older women with the ability to channel will be allowed (ie. forced) to test for Aes Sedai.

Sharina and Alivia becoming friends is interesting. Nynaeve's test for the future had Sharina as her advisor, and Romanda noted Sharina was showing great skill with Nynaeve's new healing weaves. Looks like the three strongest women in the Tower (or soon to be) will be pretty close.

ETA: Under Egwene's notes, it says that she was keen to learn above all, and that there was as much Brown as Green to her temperament, with a strong dose of Gray. Interesting. I'd have said she was more Blue than Gray, but her time in the Tower does seem to have changed that substantially.

sleepinghour
10-19-2015, 07:49 PM
Have been trying to hold off reading more of the Companion until I can read it all at once, but fell off the wagon for a bit. I hope Amazon hasn't been keeping track of search terms used, as I've now reached the stage of searching for things like "Easing the Badger." :)

It appears that Min's viewing of Sarene having a tempestuous love affair was fulfilled off-screen with her Warder Vitalien. Vitalien is said to have been killed, but Sarene's post-AMoL status seems more uncertain: "Compelled by Graendal/Hessalam and used until her eyes were vacant." It's anyone's guess whether this means Sarene has permanently been left in a similar state as Mesaana. (I like to think somebody Healed her afterwards.)

I don't remember if this was ever alluded to in the books, but Niande Moorwyn, King Galldrian's advisor, apparently puzzled out that Thom killed him and why he did it, but wasn't happy about it since much suffering came out of that death.

I've previously wondered whether Moiraine counted as a wilder or not; her entry confirms that technically, she was.

sleepinghour
11-03-2015, 09:17 AM
Just received a notification from Amazon that the ebook version of the Companion has been sent to my Kindle app.

Have only read random entries so far, but some tidbits and impressions:


Several entries for main characters (most notably Egwene) were surprisingly short, and some for minor characters surprisingly detailed.
As previously noted, Calian and Shivan were apparently reborn shortly before the Last Battle, which means they cannot be Elayne's twins.
Elyas' Aes Sedai Rina "may actually have been his wife," and Elyas himself had more conflicted feelings about Aes Sedai than he liked to admit.
It seems a fair bet that Sharina really will end up as Lan's Aes Sedai advisor. "In Nynaeve’s Accepted test, she was counselor to Lan as King of Malkier. [...] An older woman, she had thought of going to the Tower as a child; she had also always wanted to see the Borderlands, especially Shienar, and most especially Malkier, a land which she held in the highest imaginable regard."
Both Sorilea and Therava are said to be over two hundred years old, which Therava's entry notes makes her one of the oldest living Aiel Wise Ones. However, unlike Sorilea, Therava only looks to be between 35-40.
Pillow friend threesomes are "fairly rare."
Valan Luca's entry was disappointingly short and neglected to mention his status as the true Dragon Reborn.

fionwe1987
11-03-2015, 10:37 AM
The shortness of Egwene's entry surprised me too. While that is mostly because they didn't summarize her story in detail like they did for others, why that was is not clear to me. Rand's entry was long, but mentioned neither his strength nor his skills, and neither did LTT's, which was disappointing. Amys's strength remains a mystery.

KilMichaelMcC
11-03-2015, 10:42 AM
An answer to a thing I've always wondered about: Breane Taborwin is Dobraine's brother's widow.

Hugin "Poppa" Cauthon
11-03-2015, 09:29 PM
Well, it doesn't give us a damn thing on Nakomi. Boooooo.

rand
11-03-2015, 11:15 PM
I've only kind of skimmed through random entries, but a few thoughts...

First, the disappointing things:

The only new maps, as far as I can tell, are of the Last Battle...which I didn't really care about. I was hoping for Tear and Illian...

Barthanes entry doesn't say who killed him.

Sahra's entry doesn't say who killed her.

Moghedien's secret missions to the 3 BAs who get sent away aren't revealed.




And some cool/interesting stuff:

Unlike the ToM glossary, it's confirmed beyond a shadow of a doubt that Graendal directly killed Asmodean. Apparently she just stumbled on him and killed him, hoping to blame him for her mistakes in the future if everyone else thought he still lived.

This may have been sort of obvious, but the red veils from the Town were sent to destroy the Eye of the World, but failed to find it.

There is an entry for "songs" that lists the title of every song in the series.

Weiramon is confirmed to have been the High Lord at the DF social.

Tam and Kari had two children before finding Rand - a girl who died as an infant and a stillborn son.

Graendal sent Jain/Noal to Ebou Dar to search for the hidden cache of angreal.

Jennet Cobb (one of the rebels' "ferrets" in the White Tower) is the daughter of the original owners of the Queen's Blessing in Caemlyn. Basel Gill is a descendant of one of her brothers.





I'm sure I'll find more. I'm just kind of skimming like I said, not reading it cover to cover yet. I know some people are disappointed, but I'm happy with it. If something wasn't in RJs notes, it's not in the Companion. Annoying sometimes, but that's something I can accept.


Edit:
Thom is Andoran. I don't remember this ever being confirmed before. He was also Healed by an AS after fighting the Fade at Whitebridge.

I forget if this is mentioned in the books, but the prominent name of the AS that gentled Owyn is Elaida. She apparently knew that he was Thom's nephew, so she specifically targeted Owyn to draw a rift between Morgase and Thom.

fionwe1987
11-04-2015, 12:46 AM
There's a surprising amount of detail on all the Ferrets. Not strength and other minutea, but about their character and their views on some things, and their pasts. It makes me think RJ had a lot planned for them with Egwene.

David Selig
11-04-2015, 03:17 AM
I just got it and only skimmed a bit so far. One surprising thing I found is that apparently in Andor male nobles only inherit titles if they have no sisters. Given that so many of the High Seats of the major Andoran Houses were male (9 out of the 19 IIRC), that doesn't make much sense to me. There is also no mention that the Queen is selected by the majority vote of these High Seats.

fionwe1987
11-04-2015, 10:05 AM
I just got it and only skimmed a bit so far. One surprising thing I found is that apparently in Andor male nobles only inherit titles if they have no sisters. Given that so many of the High Seats of the major Andoran Houses were male (9 out of the 19 IIRC), that doesn't make much sense to me. There is also no mention that the Queen is selected by the majority vote of these High Seats.

It is possible to not have sisters, I think. And it may well be that some of those sisters died childless in the previous Succession War.

GonzoTheGreat
11-04-2015, 10:17 AM
Or in hunting accidents.

David Selig
11-04-2015, 10:58 AM
It is possible to not have sisters, I think. And it may well be that some of those sisters died childless in the previous Succession War.
It's possible, but very unlikely to happen so often. Especially since noblewomen don't fight personally in battles unlike the men. And even among the less important Houses there are plenty of male High Seats.

fionwe1987
11-04-2015, 11:04 AM
It's possible, but very unlikely to happen so often. Especially since noblewomen don't fight personally in battles unlike the men. And even among the less important Houses there are plenty of male High Seats.

But families without female offspring do exist. I'm not sure what the rates are, but a 50% split doesn't seem too egregious. We know Morgase, for instance, had no brother that we know of. I'm sure some families have male and female siblings, but hardly all need to.

GonzoTheGreat
11-04-2015, 11:15 AM
Yeah, but male offspring from leading families in Andor can't become king, so it would make sense for them to keep trying until they do produce a girl, who could become queen, if things turn out right. Which would tend to skew the statistics in the direction of "at least one girl" families.

SomeOneElse
11-04-2015, 02:31 PM
Guys, anything notable about
Ishy
Lanfear
Shara/ayyad
AOL
???

Well, it doesn't give us a damn thing on Nakomi. Boooooo.

I always had the impression that Nakomi is just... Nakomi and even the author didn't actually know who is this woman. Just some mystery.

fionwe1987
11-04-2015, 02:42 PM
Guys, anything notable about
Ishy
Lanfear
Shara/ayyad
AOL

Nothing really new, for any of these.

Dirty
11-04-2015, 09:09 PM
Hi all, long time lurker, I'm originally from wotmania.

In the oath rod section, I thought it was odd that there was no mention of the infertility caused by the oath rod. I don't think there are any Aes Sedai that had children. Plenty of them had relationships with men. What do you think? Did it cause infertility?

Also noticed that Nicola bonded Areina as her warder. While still a novice.

Looking forward to reports from the book signing! Thanks for going!

KilMichaelMcC
11-04-2015, 09:13 PM
Some background on Elyas Machera that I believe is new: he's Tairen, he ran off to the Borderlands seeking adventure at 14, eventually becoming a soldier in Shienar before being bonded by Rina, and met Lan during the last year of Lan's training in Shienar.

fionwe1987
11-04-2015, 09:41 PM
In the oath rod section, I thought it was odd that there was no mention of the infertility caused by the oath rod. I don't think there are any Aes Sedai that had children. Plenty of them had relationships with men. What do you think? Did it cause infertility?


I believe the Aes Sedai just use moon tea, like other women.

Marie Curie 7
11-04-2015, 11:54 PM
Two members of the Black Ajah's Supreme Council are mentioned in Velina's entry, her and Sedore.

Velina Behar. A Saldaean Aes Sedai of the White Ajah publicly and of the Black Ajah in truth.
.
.
.
Part of the Black Ajah's Supreme Council, she was one of two women on the Supreme Council who knew Alviarin's name; the other was Sedore Dajenna.
.
.
.
Her name was listed in Verin's book, but she fled the Tower and avoided capture.

This is obviously written not counting Galina, who of course is otherwise indisposed at this point. Otherwise, there would have been three who knew Alviarin's name.

fionwe1987
11-05-2015, 12:10 AM
Two members of the Black Ajah's Supreme Council are mentioned in Velina's entry, her and Sedore.



This is obviously written not counting Galina, who of course is otherwise indisposed at this point. Otherwise, there would have been three who knew Alviarin's name.
Weirdly, Sedore's entry says:

“ She sat on the Supreme Council of the Black Ajah, but did not know that Alviarin was Black Ajah. ”

And Sheriam's entry doesn't even say she was of the Supreme Council, which Egwene implied in tGS.

Marie Curie 7
11-05-2015, 12:29 AM
Seaine and Pevara were apparently pillow friends as novices and Accepted. And Talene was jealous of them, because she wanted to be pillow friends with Seaine. Ha.

fionwe1987
11-05-2015, 01:14 AM
Seaine and Pevara were apparently pillow friends as novices and Accepted. And Talene was jealous of them, because she wanted to be pillow friends with Seaine. Ha.

Yeah that was interesting. And apparently Talene didn't want a threesome partly because Pevara was stronger in the power than her, and she hated to defer to anyone. Though... Accepted don't defer on the basis of strength, so why this mattered at all is beyond me.

By the way... can someone who has seen the notes confirm Amys's strength? There's nothing in her entry. Melaine is at level 17(5), same as Faolain. Egwene once said Amys was as strong as any sister in the Tower, while another time she said she was as strong as Theodrin, who is level 15(3).

fionwe1987
11-05-2015, 01:40 AM
About the only piece of future info I can find is about Rhuidean:

The city was reopened for habitation after the fog that had lain over the site was dissipated. Rand arranged for Ogier to be summoned, for rebuilding, and Rhuidean began to thrive and grow. All clans except the Shaido sent people there. After the city’s transformation, one end of the valley of Rhuidean contained a huge lake, with a river running off to the south. Both were astonishing sights for most Aiel. The city was destined to become a center for trade across the Waste.

rand
11-05-2015, 02:21 AM
So, dantordhol has a nice ring to it...

halo6819
11-06-2015, 07:30 AM
One thing that has struck me so far is that everyone seems to be ridiculously tall. Is the gravity of Randland less than earths?

Terez
11-06-2015, 07:37 AM
Yeah that was interesting. And apparently Talene didn't want a threesome partly because Pevara was stronger in the power than her, and she hated to defer to anyone. Though... Accepted don't defer on the basis of strength, so why this mattered at all is beyond me.

By the way... can someone who has seen the notes confirm Amys's strength? There's nothing in her entry. Melaine is at level 17(5), same as Faolain. Egwene once said Amys was as strong as any sister in the Tower, while another time she said she was as strong as Theodrin, who is level 15(3).
Notes say 16(4).

GonzoTheGreat
11-06-2015, 10:31 AM
One thing that has struck me so far is that everyone seems to be ridiculously tall. Is the gravity of Randland less than earths?
Just about everyone who is small gets overlooked. Apart from a very few small Aiel, but they make up for being vertically challenged with their attitude.

fionwe1987
11-06-2015, 11:17 AM
One thing that has struck me so far is that everyone seems to be ridiculously tall. Is the gravity of Randland less than earths?
Well, the women are all mostly short, some very short. But yeah... Rand 6'6"? Wow. Egwene was 5'3"... they must have looked ridiculous together. No wonder Min wanted those heels.

Notes say 16(4).
Interesting. Wonder why that was omitted.

The more I think on it, the more it feels to me like a ~4 level difference doesn't matter much, and it is kind of hard to tell channelers apart if they are that close.

This leaves plenty of room for all the Forsaken to be really close in strength, explaining why they don't seem to care so much about it.

Here are some quotes that seem to back this up:
About Metarra:

Her strength level was 9(4), roughly equal to Elayne and Egwene.

While there were six additional levels for men above those for women, the disparity was not as great as it seemed, measuring the bulk quantity of the One Power that a person could handle.

I almost wonder if those "21 levels" just got expanded to allow for further gradations, and this is the result.

WinespringBrother
11-06-2015, 12:04 PM
I like how the Companion mentioned the fate of some minor characters who we don't really see on-screen during the last book in their last hurrahs, such as Ajimbura and Bayrd.

Southpaw2012
11-06-2015, 05:50 PM
[QUOTE=WinespringBrother;233931]I like how the Companion mentioned the fate of some minor characters who we don't really see on-screen during the last book in their last hurrahs, such as Ajimbura and Bayrd.[/QUOTE

Ajimburas fate is hilarious. It's no wonder that was Alan's favorite. It was also interesting to learn that Egwene's older sister may have been able to learn how to channel.
A little bit disappointed about Bela, simply because she died a heroes death in AMoL.

sleepinghour
11-06-2015, 07:27 PM
Well, the women are all mostly short, some very short. But yeah... Rand 6'6"? Wow. Egwene was 5'3"... they must have looked ridiculous together. No wonder Min wanted those heels.

An approximate visual (http://40.media.tumblr.com/df535ffd2454d9fcad492d3d6aaea5f4/tumblr_mnokyxPkdf1qgomxfo1_1280.jpg) of how Rand and Lan would look next to the shorter female characters. Klitschko is 6'6" and Hayden 5'1" (seeing them next to each other always makes me boggle that they had a child together).

The more I think on it, the more it feels to me like a ~4 level difference doesn't matter much, and it is kind of hard to tell channelers apart if they are that close.

Four levels seems a fair jump; Alivia was said to be "considerably stronger" than Nynaeve who is only two levels down (three at the time).

Regarding Metarra, I've noticed that much of what is said in the Companion is paraphrased from the books, where it's said that "...Metarra on a level with Elayne herself" (TPoD). Which she was at the time since Elayne hasn't reached her full potential. So that's probably why her strength was compared to theirs. I do think it's fair to say that someone a level above or below is roughly of the same strength considering how many levels there are in total.

Notes say 16(4).

Is there anything about Aviendha's potential strength? The Companion puts her at 11(+2) without further explanation, which seems strange considering how often it's been said that her potential is equal to that of Egwene and Elayne.

Terez
11-06-2015, 08:19 PM
Is there anything about Aviendha's potential strength? The Companion puts her at 11(+2) without further explanation, which seems strange considering how often it's been said that her potential is equal to that of Egwene and Elayne.
Her potential is definitely equal to theirs. She started her training after they did, though; she didn't start until TSR, when Egwene had already been forced to reach (or nearly reach) her potential.

fionwe1987
11-06-2015, 10:10 PM
It was also interesting to learn that Egwene's older sister may have been able to learn how to channel.

Her two youngest sisters (Elisa and Loise) are both mentioned as potential channelers, as is Marin. That's an insanely channeler dense family. No such thing is said about any of the Cauthons.
An approximate visual (http://40.media.tumblr.com/df535ffd2454d9fcad492d3d6aaea5f4/tumblr_mnokyxPkdf1qgomxfo1_1280.jpg) of how Rand and Lan would look next to the shorter female characters. Klitschko is 6'6" and Hayden 5'1" (seeing them next to each other always makes me boggle that they had a child together).
That's hilarious. I remember there's a scene where Egwene is hugging Rand, and it says the hilt of his sword was poking her chest...:cool: RJ really had a dirty mind.

Four levels seems a fair jump; Alivia was said to be "considerably stronger" than Nynaeve who is only two levels down (three at the time).
I know. And Graendal talking of Cyndane says she was "so much stronger than Moghedien". But the Companion does say 6 levels above Lanfear are not all that considerable. Unless those levels are less spaced out than the main 72 (or 66) levels, we're left with picking between what Reanne and Graendal say vs. what the Companion says.

Terez, any input here? Are the levels all evenly spaced from 1-72?

Regarding Metarra, I've noticed that much of what is said in the Companion is paraphrased from the books, where it's said that "...Metarra on a level with Elayne herself" (TPoD). Which she was at the time since Elayne hasn't reached her full potential. So that's probably why her strength was compared to theirs. I do think it's fair to say that someone a level above or below is roughly of the same strength considering how many levels there are in total.
You know, I'm pretty certain Elayne was at level 11(+2) as well, same as Aviendha. For one, she definitely say Viendre was stronger, but Viendre is only level 10(+3). For another, a lot of the text implies she was dead even with Aviendha in the Power (for instance, using the Bowl of the Winds, she gives the stronger angreal to Aviendha, which made no sense unless they were of the same strength, since Elayne emphasizes how they were trying to maximize strength in the circle). I suspect Metarra's strength level also is her potential.

Her potential is definitely equal to theirs. She started her training after they did, though; she didn't start until TSR, when Egwene had already been forced to reach (or nearly reach) her potential.
Are we certain of this? The way Aviendha speaks when she first sees Nynaeve, Egwene and Elayne, the way Moiraine speaks of her in Tear... I felt Aviendha had already started channeling a while ago, but was just refusing to become a Wise One. I think she had learned enough to be safe, so she was let to leave the Waste.

Otherwise, if she only began in the Waste, she grew very far very fast. Soon after they're there:

Then one day, with the sun molten overhead, a ball of fire as big as a horse suddenly burst into being ahead of the Wise Ones’ party and went spinning and tumbling away, blazing a furrow across the sere land, until it finally dwindled and winked out.

That's an incredibly large effect for a new channeler. Soon after, she is able to precisely target fire at a Draghkar. Then make a Gateway, and then help Egwene against the Shaido. Its not like the Wise Ones were forcing her. and even if they were, she can't possibly have made a fireball as big as a horse a few days after starting to channel.

ETA: Aviendha was definitely already a channeler before tSR. She was a year older than Egwene and Elayne, so its unlikely her spark didn't show till that late. It would have been too risky to let her leave the Waste if she hadn't already started.

ETA2: I see Terez said "training", not start channeling. I still think she had some training pre-tSR, but the lower intensity compared to Egwene and Elayne might have meant she was weaker.

fionwe1987
11-06-2015, 10:13 PM
Double post.

Terez
11-06-2015, 11:55 PM
I see Terez said "training", not start channeling. I still think she had some training pre-tSR, but the lower intensity compared to Egwene and Elayne might have meant she was weaker.
They probably guided her through her first touching like the Aes Sedai do when they have the chance (Wise Ones don't miss any sparkers), and then told her not to use the Power until she gave up the spear. And being Wise Ones, they had reason to believe such an order would be more or less obeyed. Since Aviendha wanted to avoid that particular destiny, she probably did obey, difficult as it might have been for her.

As for the size of her ball of fire, even at her "novice" strength, she would have been stronger than most Aes Sedai. And as a warrior, she would have already been practiced at the Void. She was just learning how to control it at that point.

rand
11-07-2015, 01:18 AM
This wasn't something I cared all that much about before, but the Old Tongue dictionary is actually really cool.


Thom lalane odi sterpan xazzi vid o lindhi whado wot ainame sa o caili parikesh e poulam aird. Patra sin bhootane o ozela mitris vaesht sin ghuniane wixi ni otye barocan, no sin lyetane spondat.


I might still be a little rusty, but that should be a nice love poem for Nynaeve and Lan. I hope it came out right.

fionwe1987
11-07-2015, 03:38 AM
They probably guided her through her first touching like the Aes Sedai do when they have the chance (Wise Ones don't miss any sparkers), and then told her not to use the Power until she gave up the spear. And being Wise Ones, they had reason to believe such an order would be more or less obeyed. Since Aviendha wanted to avoid that particular destiny, she probably did obey, difficult as it might have been for her.

From what we know, though, guiding her through her first touching only removes the initial danger. It is possible she obeyed and never touched the source again, but should she had slipped, the dangers were considerable, as Verin told Egwene.

As for the size of her ball of fire, even at her "novice" strength, she would have been stronger than most Aes Sedai. And as a warrior, she would have already been practiced at the Void. She was just learning how to control it at that point.
I'm not sure about that. Women have a steady progression unless forced. They don't start with a big chunk of their strength. Based on the Companion, at the end of aMoL, Avi was just two levels above Moiraine. I don't think Novices start with large amounts of Power available to them, even if they're eventually very strong.

GonzoTheGreat
11-07-2015, 04:35 AM
Then again, just about everyone who knows about it (the Forsaken, the Seanchan, the Sharans, Cadsuane and I think also the Wise Ones) was rather contemptible about the AS training methods. So the rate at which novices learn may not be the best possible.

sleepinghour
11-07-2015, 02:59 PM
I wish the Kindle ebook had a better table of contents, leading to every chapter; this one isn't really very useful. If you want to look up a certain character entry, you can narrow down the search results substantially if you include the character's last name. Which might seem like a no-brainer, but I've seen several people complaining that they get hundreds of results by searching for "Rand," in which case they're better off searching for "Rand al'Thor" (25 matches).

fionwe1987
11-07-2015, 09:25 PM
Then again, just about everyone who knows about it (the Forsaken, the Seanchan, the Sharans, Cadsuane and I think also the Wise Ones) was rather contemptible about the AS training methods. So the rate at which novices learn may not be the best possible.

This is strictly not true. The Forsaken call them half-trained girls... which is because they don't know the rest of the weaves. The Seanchan say nothing of their training that I can remember, and on the whole, they barely know a fraction of what the Aes Sedai know of the One Power. The Sharans... they thought Aes Sedai don't reach their full potential? Clearly they know nothing of what Aes Sedai do. Cadsuane does think they don't experiment enough, but it is worth pointing out that once Elayne, Egwene and Nynaeve opened the floodgates, many Aes Sedai did innovate.

As for the Wise Ones... they straight out admit the Aes Sedai know and understand the Power better. They're rightly contemptible of the other training the Aes Sedai give, but never about the OP stuff.

Of all the channeling groups, the Aes Sedai are structurally the weakest, and have a lot of idiotic ideas, but I don't think we can reasonably doubt that they preserved knowledge of the OP best, and have the deepest understanding of it. That may change, but I doubt it.

GonzoTheGreat
11-08-2015, 04:59 AM
But it is not about the knowledge they have, it is about their strength and endurance training. Which is precisely what the Sharans comment about. And Egwene's training in that regard with the Seanchan was clearly a lot more effective than the training the AS gave. For that matter, the methods that Taim used in the BT were also more effective than the WT training program, and Taim's approach was based on what he had learned from Demandred. While the WOs know less about the OP than the WT does, Amys also remarks that they "don't coddle them like the White Tower" (ToM, ch. 14).

KilMichaelMcC
11-08-2015, 07:58 AM
There appears to be a major and frankly inexplicable error in the balefire article, where in describing the effects it says "The dead didn't come back to life."

fionwe1987
11-08-2015, 04:06 PM
But it is not about the knowledge they have, it is about their strength and endurance training. Which is precisely what the Sharans comment about. And Egwene's training in that regard with the Seanchan was clearly a lot more effective than the training the AS gave. For that matter, the methods that Taim used in the BT were also more effective than the WT training program, and Taim's approach was based on what he had learned from Demandred. While the WOs know less about the OP than the WT does, Amys also remarks that they "don't coddle them like the White Tower" (ToM, ch. 14).

But it's not like the Aes Sedai wimped out in the Last Battle, or in other places. Some do, sure, and just like among the Wise Ones, there are some more interested in their own comforts and goals.

We saw the worst of their political shenanigans, which makes them seem completely contemptuous, but they're not.

And I thought we were specifically discussing their OP training, because it came up in the context of Aviendhas OP training. The Wise Ones are contemptuous of Aes Sedai morals, but not of their OP training.

Terez
11-08-2015, 06:00 PM
This "coddling" clearly refers specifically to the measures taken by Aes Sedai to prevent novices from being harmed in any way. They err very much on the side of caution, which means their training is slow. There is nothing in the books to suggest that Wise Ones think this approach is a good idea. They acknowledge that the Aes Sedai are somewhat more versatile channelers who know more weaves than they do in general, but that's about as far as it goes. They have special weaves of their own.

Marie Curie 7
11-08-2015, 06:51 PM
Thom's entry indicates that he was Healed after the encounter with the Myrddraal at Whitebridge by some random unnamed Aes Sedai who could regulate her weaves:

He saved the boys from a Myrddraal in Whitebridge, escaping largely because the Myrddraal was more interested in following Rand and Mat, though he did put up a good fight and wounded it, perhaps even killed it. He himself was wounded in the leg and would have died had not an Aes Sedai shown up just in the nick of time. Like Samitsu, she could regulate her weaves, so she was able to Heal him enough to keep him alive, but he was left with a limp and a scar.

fionwe1987
11-08-2015, 06:55 PM
The Companion says:

Aes Sedai considered unsupervised channeling for novices dangerous, as it very certainly was, and thus it was forbidden. Channeling too much or too often was also dangerous, and novices were always closely supervised when channeling.

The measures the Aes Sedai take are very sensible. I doubt the Wise Ones do much different, or they'll have women burning out left and right. Sul'dam don't bother, but then, the a'dam doesn't allow you to draw too much and burn yourself out, or to accidentally channel and kill others or yourself, so the entire "training" is wholly different.

As for the Wise Ones, they're perfectly right that Novices are coddled compared to apprentices, but I see no evidence that they're talking of the OP training. They're talking about how they build character. You don't become an apprentice before you go to Rhuidean and prove yourself, whereas Aes Sedai give you a long time before you try for Accepted, and there, you have the option of refusing.

I've seen no evidence that women progress faster among Wise Ones or Windfinders. The only place where progress in channeling is faster is the Black Tower. And they lose a ton of their Soldiers.

Terez
11-08-2015, 09:25 PM
The measures the Aes Sedai take are very sensible.
The principle is sensible. The measures, not so much. I suspect the Wise Ones are somewhere between the Aes Sedai and the Seanchan when it comes to forcing (nevermind the Black Tower, but even there, "training accidents" were often something else altogether).

fionwe1987
11-08-2015, 09:53 PM
I'm not sure how we're arriving at the conclusion that the measures are not sensible, especially since we don't know that any other organization that does care about safety and doesn't have a'dam does any different.

We see Siuan be very hard on the girls, so it isn't like the safety measures mean you let them muddle through. We know that Galina flogging the block on Tarna was considered okay.

I'm not saying Aes Sedai are the harshest on their Novices. But their precautions on Novice channeling seem both sensible, and never really challenged by anyone.

sleepinghour
11-09-2015, 06:32 AM
We see Siuan be very hard on the girls, so it isn't like the safety measures mean you let them muddle through. We know that Galina flogging the block on Tarna was considered okay.

It wasn't, and probably not Siuan's treatment of the girls either.

Galina Casban took an interest in her and beat the block out of [Tarna], something about which she later professed to be amused. This was technically illegal, but the then Mistress of Novices acquiesced by being silent about it.

"What I did—because I had no choice, because I didn't know better—is called forcing, Nicola, and it is dangerous." [Egwene] had not heard that term until Siuan apologized for doing it to her; that was one time Siuan truly had seemed repentant.

Terez
11-09-2015, 09:44 AM
I'm not sure how we're arriving at the conclusion that the measures are not sensible, especially since we don't know that any other organization that does care about safety and doesn't have a'dam does any different.
But we do know. The Wise Ones call it coddling, and the Aes Sedai would never have encouraged Aviendha to channel so much of the Power so soon in her training.

fionwe1987
11-10-2015, 12:06 AM
It wasn't, and probably not Siuan's treatment of the girls either.
Interesting the Galina thing was technically illegal. Frankly, it should have been obviously illegal, but good to see that the Tower has some grasp on sense.

As for Siuan... I always assumed she meant sending the girls out to chase the BA. That one session on the boat could hardly have forced them much, and we know there were no other sessions.

But we do know. The Wise Ones call it coddling,
But do they mean the training regimen, or that Novices get years before they face the Accepted Test? Or the lack of moral grounding that the Wise Ones impart?
and the Aes Sedai would never have encouraged Aviendha to channel so much of the Power so soon in her training.
That's a circular argument, though. We don't know it was that early in her training. For all we know, the Wise Ones had trained her quite a bit before she left the Waste. Aviendha is a year older than Elayne and Egwene, and there's no reason her spark would have come out as relatively late as theirs did. She might have been channeling from when she was 16, for all we know.

Kimon
11-10-2015, 12:33 AM
That's a circular argument, though. We don't know it was that early in her training. For all we know, the Wise Ones had trained her quite a bit before she left the Waste. Aviendha is a year older than Elayne and Egwene, and there's no reason her spark would have come out as relatively late as theirs did. She might have been channeling from when she was 16, for all we know.

That same scene (in TSR ch 23) where they mention the coddling, in reference to their annoyance at realizing that Moiraine had intended to take Aviendha to the Tower, makes clear that she hadn't undergone any training yet. That's why Bair and the others had to force her to give up the spear. Amys even comments that she too "refused when called". Her training started after she returned from Rhuidean. The first mention of her actually being trained in channeling doesn't come until TSR ch 48, albeit en passant, when Rand comments on it. Presumably it had begun prior to that chapter, but not until after Rhuidean.

Had she sparked earlier she would have been forced to give up the spear earlier, and have gone to Rhuidean then, and probably would not have gone into the Wetlands and met Rand and the girls. The delay in her sparking thus is likely driven by ta'veren and/or prophetic necessity.

fionwe1987
11-10-2015, 01:19 AM
That same scene (in TSR ch 23) where they mention the coddling, in reference to their annoyance at realizing that Moiraine had intended to take Aviendha to the Tower, makes clear that she hadn't undergone any training yet. That's why Bair and the others had to force her to give up the spear. Amys even comments that she too "refused when called". Her training started after she returned from Rhuidean. The first mention of her actually being trained in channeling doesn't come until TSR ch 48, albeit en passant, when Rand comments on it. Presumably it had begun prior to that chapter, but not until after Rhuidean.

Had she sparked earlier she would have been forced to give up the spear earlier, and have gone to Rhuidean then, and probably would not have gone into the Wetlands and met Rand and the girls. The delay in her sparking thus is likely driven by ta'veren and/or prophetic necessity.

Is there a place where it is said you must go through the Rings at Rhuidean before you get trained in channeling?

Egwene felt an "odd affinity" with Aviendha in tDR. Also in tDR, when Egwene embraces the source and prepares weaves of Air to bind the Maidens, Aviendha seems to know, because she gives Egwene assurances that they would never hurt Aes Sedai.

If Aviendha had her first touching after Rhuidean, then she created a fireball as big as a horse insanely quickly. A few weeks after at most, she can correctly aim a ball of fire at a Draghkar, and a few weeks after, Travel, then help fight the Shaido at very far distances, and soon after, be considered strong enough that, with Egwene, she could challenge a Forsaken? That just doesn't make sense, given what we know of how women gain strength. Even Egwene had a progression, and it didn't happen in weeks. She was two months a damane, and even then it isn't ever said she is at her full strength already.

ETA: In fact, this Egwene quote proves it:

Abruptly, Egwene knew why she had felt such a kinship with Aviendha from the first, knew why Amys and the others meant her to be a Wise One. Aviendha could channel. Like herself, like Elayne and Nynaeve—and Moiraine, for that matter—she was one of those rare women who not only could be taught to channel, but who had the ability born in her, so she would touch the True Source eventually whether she knew what she was doing or not. Moiraine’s face was still, calm, but Egwene saw confirmation in her eyes. The Aes Sedai had surely known from the first time she came within arm’s reach of the Aiel woman. Egwene realized she could feel that same kinship with Amys and Melaine. Not with Bair or Seana, though. Only the first two could channel; she was sure of it. And now she could sense the same in Moiraine. It was the first time she had ever felt that. The Aes Sedai was a distant woman.

The feel of someone who is at the edge of channeling is distinct from someone who already can channel. Egwene makes it very clear she feels the same thing in Aviendha, Amys, Melaine and Moiraine. What's more, she says it is the same thing she felt from the first time they met.

GonzoTheGreat
11-10-2015, 06:24 AM
On the other hand, there's another Egwene quote from just a very little bit further on in the same chapter:
Catching Aviendha's hand, Egwene squeezed it and got a squeeze in return. Then the Aiel woman was running down the mountainside in leaps. It seemed she might well catch up to Rand and Mat. Egwene watched her go worriedly. This was something like being raised to Accepted, it seemed, but without any novice training first, without anyone to give small comfort afterward. What would it have been like to be raised Accepted on her first day in the Tower? She thought she might have gone mad. Nynaeve had been raised so, because of her strength; she thought at least some of Nynaeve's distaste for Aes Sedai came from what she had experienced then. Come back to us, she thought. Be steadfast.

fionwe1987
11-10-2015, 11:52 AM
On the other hand, there's another Egwene quote from just a very little bit further on in the same chapter:

That doesn't mean she couldn't channel before. Just that there was no official position for someone of that stature. At least, that is what Egwene thinks. But I would trust her opinions on Aiel culture at this point far less than her knowledge of who can channel. One is based on external info which she doesn't fully have. The other is based on what she can sense herself.

GonzoTheGreat
11-10-2015, 12:27 PM
Yes, but it isn't really clear from her description whether Aviendha can channel at that point, or merely can learn to channel.

From what the WOs say, though, it is clear that Aviendha hasn't had any lessons; those will only come if she survives Rhuidean.

fionwe1987
11-10-2015, 12:35 PM
Yes, but it isn't really clear from her description whether Aviendha can channel at that point, or merely can learn to channel.
She says it is the exact same kinship she feels for Amys, Melaine and Moiraine. Since none of those are women at the edge of channeleing (who can be sensed, and distinctly, as we see with sul'dam), and since Egwene says she felt the same thing months ago in Cairhien... how else do we interpret this?

Even if we say Egwene can't distinguish being at the edge of channeling and actually channeling, are we saying Aviendha was at this edge for months? That makes no sense. Per Moiraine:

“No Aes Sedai can stand in the presence of a woman who can channel, or who is close to her change, and not feel it.” She rummaged in the pouch at her belt and produced the small blue gem on a gold chain that she had earlier worn in her hair. “You are very close to your change, your first touching.”

Aviendha can't have been at this stage for months. If she was that close, and ready to tip over any day, Moiraine would have worked to guide her across in Tear, to spare her the risk of death. That she didn't bother is evidence Aviendha could already channel.

From what the WOs say, though, it is clear that Aviendha hasn't had any lessons; those will only come if she survives Rhuidean.
I don't see anything they say that means this.

Kimon
11-10-2015, 05:32 PM
She says it is the exact same kinship she feels for Amys, Melaine and Moiraine. Since none of those are women at the edge of channeleing (who can be sensed, and distinctly, as we see with sul'dam), and since Egwene says she felt the same thing months ago in Cairhien... how else do we interpret this?


Here's the full quote:

Abruptly, Egwene knew why she had felt such a kinship with Aviendha from the first, knew why Amys and the others meant her to be a Wise One. Aviendha could channel. Like herself, like Elayne and Nynaeve - and Moiraine, for that matter - she was one of those rare women who not only could be taught to channel, but who had the ability born in her, so she would touch the True Source eventually whether she knew what she was doing or not. Moiraine's face was still, calm, but Egwene saw confirmation in her eyes. The Aes Sedai had surely known from the first time she came within arm's reach of the Aiel woman. Egwene realized she could feel the same kinship with Amys and Melaine. Not with Bair or Seana, though. Only the first two could channel; she was sure of it. And now she could sense the same in Moiraine. It was the first time she had ever felt that. The Aes Sedai was a distant woman.

There are a few issues here. That first bolded bit could be taken to mean she had already started channeling, or that she merely has the ability to channel. The second, "eventually", implies that she has the spark, but it hasn't burst yet. The last is to draw the contrast - Egwene can sense the women who can channel, but can't sense Bair or Seana, who can't channel. There are a few questions that can be raised from this, and frankly whether Aviendha is a wilder seems the least interesting one. But she hasn't been trained, as you've been arguing. Her refusal to join indicates that, as does her refusal until now to enter Rhuidean. But you're overlooking another problem. How? There weren't any Wise Ones in the Wetlands. Unless you think she was trained just enough to make her safe, but not forced to officially enter training to become a Wise One, and then allowed to run off on her own almost immediately, it simply doesn't make sense. That's not impossible. But all textual evidence points in the opposite direction.

As for the more interesting questions - this passage always made me think about Min. Why did some sisters seem to be trying to convince her to become a novice? We know that she didn't possess the spark, but it certainly felt in those early books like we were being lead to believe that she was a learner. Could Egwene (or any channeler) have sensed potential in her, or only sense girls with the spark? Does anyone remember if there was ever a definitive answer on either of those questions?

Terez
11-10-2015, 06:02 PM
As for the more interesting questions - this passage always made me think about Min. Why did some sisters seem to be trying to convince her to become a novice? We know that she didn't possess the spark, but it certainly felt in those early books like we were being lead to believe that she was a learner. Could Egwene (or any channeler) have sensed potential in her, or only sense girls with the spark? Does anyone remember if there was ever a definitive answer on either of those questions?
It stands to reason that learners have to be tested in the same way that all men have to be tested; we never see the test, but Verin and Alanna do talk about it in a roundabout way. They do some sort of test, anyway. Men can't sense the ability in each other at all, only channeling itself, but women can sense the ability in developed channelers and adolescent sparkers.

Aside from that, Aes Sedai had a hard time wrapping their heads around Min's ability. They never wanted to consider that it was unrelated to the Power, so they believed she must surely be a learner, since they couldn't sense anything from her.

fionwe1987
11-10-2015, 06:02 PM
Here's the full quote:
You mean the same exact quote I posted? ::D

There are a few issues here. That first bolded bit could be taken to mean she had already started channeling, or that she merely has the ability to channel.
Not just the ability. She, at the very least has the spark, and is close to her first touching. And that is assuming that Egwene cannot, at this stage, tell the difference between a woman close to her change and a woman who can already channel.
The second, "eventually", implies that she has the spark, but it hasn't burst yet.
It does not, since the beginning clause of that sentence says "Like herself, like Elayne and Nynaeve - and Moiraine", so you can't take the final clause to just apply to Aviendha. Egwene is saying Aviendha has to spark, so she would have eventually started to channel anyway, which is why the Wise Ones say there is no choice for her.

The last is to draw the contrast - Egwene can sense the women who can channel, but can't sense Bair or Seana, who can't channel.
Hence, proving Aviendha can channel, or is very close to that point, and has been since they met in Cairhein (which is an option that makes no sense).

There are a few questions that can be raised from this, and frankly whether Aviendha is a wilder seems the least interesting one. But she hasn't been trained, as you've been arguing. Her refusal to join indicates that, as does her refusal until now to enter Rhuidean. But you're overlooking another problem. How? There weren't any Wise Ones in the Wetlands. Unless you think she was trained just enough to make her safe, but not forced to officially enter training to become a Wise One, and then allowed to run off on her own almost immediately, it simply doesn't make sense. That's not impossible. But all textual evidence points in the opposite direction.
That is exactly what I think, and have been arguing. This isn't a unique circumstance either. Moiraine herself started her training before she joined the Novice book because the then Aes Sedai advisor to Cairhein thought it was too unsafe to not begin teaching her. Moiraine in turn did the same thing for Egwene.

Aviendha was resisting becoming a Wise One. Like with Aes Sedai, there is no choice once the Wise Ones deem you need to become one of them. But how would they know? They don't test random women for the ability. They just find all the sparkers. If they don't test, the way to find sparkers is sense them as they come close to their change, which they can do since Wise Ones who can channel are widely spread among the population.

Since Aviendha was already aware they wanted her to become a Wise One in the Stone of Tear, someone must have already sensed the spark in her before she left the Waste. Since Egwene could sense her in Cairhein, there's no way for a Wise One to miss her. And the Wise One would have sensed her before she left, since none crossed the Dragonwall to look for the Car'a'carn.

Thus, at the very least, Aviendha was close to touching the Source on her own before she left the Waste. But would Wise Ones let one such leave the Waste and potentially die, or do worse? Would Moiraine let such a person sit under her nose for weeks in the Stone, when she had no idea the Aiel were returning to the Stone any time soon, and not try and teach her? Why wouldn't Moiraine do for Aviendha what she did for Egwene? Remember what Verin said in tGH:

“Oh, there have been others like you; you are not unique. Moiraine was one herself. Once she knew what you had done, there was nothing for it but for her to begin teaching you. Did Moiraine never explain any of this to you?”

Egwene channeled (was at the edge of it, actually), and Moiraine then had no choice but to teach her control, or see her risk her life. I don't see why on earth Moiraine would feel any different about Aviendha.

As for the more interesting questions - this passage always made me think about Min. Why did some sisters seem to be trying to convince her to become a novice? We know that she didn't possess the spark, but it certainly felt in those early books like we were being lead to believe that she was a learner. Could Egwene (or any channeler) have sensed potential in her, or only sense girls with the spark? Does anyone remember if there was ever a definitive answer on either of those questions?
Learners can't be sensed. You have a test for it, not unlike what the men do. You make a tiny weave, and sense for a resonance from the potential channeler. I think a lot of Aes Sedai just assumed what Min had was a Talent, and that it might have manifested before she had started touching the source. So they wanted to test her, but she refused the test, IIRC.

What you can sense are women who are just one step away from channeling. In Randland, this is women with the spark who are just about to naturally touch the OP for the first time. Among the Seanchan, this is true of experienced sul'dam as well.

sleepinghour
11-10-2015, 06:08 PM
As for the more interesting questions - this passage always made me think about Min. Why did some sisters seem to be trying to convince her to become a novice? We know that she didn't possess the spark, but it certainly felt in those early books like we were being lead to believe that she was a learner.

The Companion puts that question to rest:

Min was about eighteen when some Aes Sedai came through. Someone told them the old stories of the girl claiming she could see things about people, and they sought Min out because it might be a manifestation of the One Power. They quickly found out she couldn’t channel and couldn’t be taught, but she was so awed by Aes Sedai that she betrayed her ability. They tried to find out some way for it to be associated with the Power, but concluded it was not. One of the Aes Sedai told Moiraine about Min.

fionwe1987
11-10-2015, 06:11 PM
Elayne to Egeanin:

“You seem very interested in Aes Sedai,” Elayne said. “I cannot sense the ability in you, but perhaps you can learn to channel.”

They also never felt any ability in Nicola, who was with them for a long time.

zacz
11-10-2015, 08:23 PM
I have created an ordered list of power levels here

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lPhqAxlGNtOrJxm6-VYWysR-bdRrzExqw6QYH9aEQN4/edit?usp=sharing

I have ordered it using the Aes Sedai power ranking system (that is strength, then time as novice and accepted with a shorter time as novice higher if equal and finally age if everything else is equal).

One thing I found strange is that there is no known Aes Sedai born in Tar Valon. Its quite a large city and I would think that girls born there would be more likely to go to the tower to be tested?

I have only included Male channelers if their strength is mentioned (which is not frequently)

fionwe1987
11-10-2015, 09:59 PM
I have created an ordered list of power levels here

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lPhqAxlGNtOrJxm6-VYWysR-bdRrzExqw6QYH9aEQN4/edit?usp=sharing

I have ordered it using the Aes Sedai power ranking system (that is strength, then time as novice and accepted with a shorter time as novice higher if equal and finally age if everything else is equal).

One thing I found strange is that there is no known Aes Sedai born in Tar Valon. Its quite a large city and I would think that girls born there would be more likely to go to the tower to be tested?

I have only included Male channelers if there strength is mentioned (which is not frequently)

It isn't an unrealistic placement, but why is Taim at ++2?

zacz
11-10-2015, 10:03 PM
It isn't an unrealistic placement, but why is Taim at ++2?

I admit I added that myself as I felt that Logain and Taim were equal in the power (I don't have any quotes but I'm pretty sure it was indicated in the series). And Since he was a Forsaken at the end I wanted to include him.

fionwe1987
11-10-2015, 10:09 PM
I admit I added that myself as I felt that Logain and Taim were equal in the power (I don't have any quotes but I'm pretty sure it was indicated in the series). And Since he was a Forsaken at the end I wanted to include him.

Yeah, but the series also says Aviendha equals Egwene and Elayne's potential, and all three are stronger than Cadsuane.

As for Taim, he can be ++3 and still be Forsaken. No reason he has to be as strong as Logain. Hopefully, Terez, or someone who has read the notes, can confirm where he is.

Kimon
11-10-2015, 10:30 PM
Yeah, but the series also says Aviendha equals Egwene and Elayne's potential, and all three are stronger than Cadsuane.

As for Taim, he can be ++3 and still be Forsaken. No reason he has to be as strong as Logain. Hopefully, Terez, or someone who has read the notes, can confirm where he is.

Terez private messaged me something about Taim from the notes that would, shall we say, help explain at least why he would initially have had that strength level...

She however also said not to mention it until after the Companion was out, but seemingly the Companion made no mention of this. Curious.

Hopefully she doesn't mind me dropping this rather obvious hint, but it is at least after the release of the Companion.

zacz
11-10-2015, 10:35 PM
Terez private messaged me something about Taim from the notes that would, shall we say, help explain at least why he would initially have had that strength level...

She however also said not to mention it until after the Companion was out, but seemingly the Companion made no mention of this. Curious.

Hopefully she doesn't mind me dropping this rather obvious hint, but it is at least after the release of the Companion.

Hmm. Strange that they would leave something like that out. It makes me wonder how much else there is in the notes that is not included in the companion (and why?? Unless it contradicts something else)

Kimon
11-10-2015, 10:37 PM
Hmm. Strange that they would leave something like that out. It makes me wonder how much else there is in the notes that is not included in the companion (and why?? Unless it contradicts something else)

This is obviously something way way bigger than any of the silly little issues that have mostly been discussed in this thread...

fionwe1987
11-10-2015, 10:46 PM
Terez private messaged me something about Taim from the notes that would, shall we say, help explain at least why he would initially have had that strength level...

She however also said not to mention it until after the Companion was out, but seemingly the Companion made no mention of this. Curious.

Hopefully she doesn't mind me dropping this rather obvious hint, but it is at least after the release of the Companion.
"That strength level" is ++3?

And yes, why things were left out like this is a good question. I know the into says "space issues", but every major character bar Egwene got a really extensive summary of their book storylines. So I'm not sure why those couldn't have been condensed and other such info put in.

Kimon
11-10-2015, 10:50 PM
"That strength level" is ++3?

And yes, why things were left out like this is a good question. I know the into says "space issues", but every major character bar Egwene got a really extensive summary of their book storylines. So I'm not sure why those couldn't have been condensed and other such info put in.

I don't feel comfortable being any clearer than I already have (I'll leave that to Terez, if she so desires), but suffice it to say that this sort of issue is why I find the Companion so disappointing. Personally I think that just publishing his notes would have been more interesting than publishing what they did.

fionwe1987
11-10-2015, 11:14 PM
I don't feel comfortable being any clearer than I already have (I'll leave that to Terez, if she so desires)
Cool
, but suffice it to say that this sort of issue is why I find the Companion so disappointing. Personally I think that just publishing his notes would have been more interesting than publishing what they did.

I agree. Maybe the raw notes would have been impossible to put into a book. But rather than an alphabetical listing, there are many other ways they could have done this. Even people, places, things... some kind of organization. And almost certainly, they should have highlighted the places where RJ changed his mind.

C Rutherford
11-10-2015, 11:23 PM
I have created an ordered list of power levels here

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lPhqAxlGNtOrJxm6-VYWysR-bdRrzExqw6QYH9aEQN4/edit?usp=sharing

I have ordered it using the Aes Sedai power ranking system (that is strength, then time as novice and accepted with a shorter time as novice higher if equal and finally age if everything else is equal).

One thing I found strange is that there is no known Aes Sedai born in Tar Valon. Its quite a large city and I would think that girls born there would be more likely to go to the tower to be tested?

I have only included Male channelers if their strength is mentioned (which is not frequently)

Only quibble is on my computer the Aiel color is really close to the Red Ajahs.

Of note: all the channeling Shaido Wise Ones with Sevanna are as strong or stronger than Micara if you want to play with having cut off points. If so that would also let you settle all the unranked Aes Sedai in Dorlan since you know they stand lower in strength than Covarla. Same with the attack party on the Black Tower; all unranked stand lower than Desandre and Lemai.

C Rutherford
11-10-2015, 11:24 PM
Cool


I agree. Maybe the raw notes would have been impossible to put into a book. But rather than an alphabetical listing, there are many other ways they could have done this. Even people, places, things... some kind of organization. And almost certainly, they should have highlighted the places where RJ changed his mind.

Don't get me started ;)

zacz
11-11-2015, 12:16 AM
Don't get me started ;)

Agreed. For example the list of every Amyrlin Seat which was released as a preview is so much easier to read and makes so much more sense that having it spread out like it is in the companion.

Some of the Amyrlin articles mention her predecessors and without having them listed in order. It is unlikely anyone could remember who it is referring to. The information therefore loses some of the impact that the preview article had.

The way the character entries are organised (some by last name and some by first name) also make it hard to look something up. It really should be consistent.

All up there is alot of good information in the Companion but the way its organised and presented could have been better thought out.

fionwe1987
11-11-2015, 12:49 AM
The worst thing? The ebook doesn't even have each letter as a chapter, so navigating is truly atrocious. Search with last name works, but is nowhere close to simple enough.

Terez
11-11-2015, 04:34 AM
I don't feel comfortable being any clearer than I already have (I'll leave that to Terez, if she so desires)...
I'd rather wait. I mean, the book tour isn't even over yet. I was actually hoping that it would stay off the public web until JordanCon, but I wouldn't be surprised if certain people can't make it that long. I felt comfortable enough telling a number of people and I assume they told other people, but no one is blabbing on the web yet. (I have dropped hints about it, but they were fairly vague ones.)

As for Taim's power level, it's in LOC. Both he and Logain are just one tick below Rand, and they both seem to have reached their upper limit.

sleepinghour
11-11-2015, 06:18 AM
Terez private messaged me something about Taim from the notes that would, shall we say, help explain at least why he would initially have had that strength level...

She however also said not to mention it until after the Companion was out, but seemingly the Companion made no mention of this. Curious.

Hopefully she doesn't mind me dropping this rather obvious hint, but it is at least after the release of the Companion.

This is obviously something way way bigger than any of the silly little issues that have mostly been discussed in this thread...

I think if something's revealed in a private message, it's uncool to break that confidence without permission, including making cryptic comments that will only frustrate others who are not privy to said information. Even if you didn't intend it as such, it comes across as "neener neener I know something you don't." Also, there's no need to dismiss other people's issues as "silly little issues."

Kimon
11-11-2015, 07:48 AM
I think if something's revealed in a private message, it's uncool to break that confidence without permission, including making cryptic comments that will only frustrate others who are not privy to said information. Even if you didn't intend it as such, it comes across as "neener neener I know something you don't." Also, there's no need to dismiss other people's issues as "silly little issues."

Based on the way she phrased it to me originally, I assumed that Terez would immediately clarify my hint...

GonzoTheGreat
11-11-2015, 09:25 AM
Based on the way she phrased it to me originally, I assumed that Terez would immediately clarify my hint...Based on the fact that she didn't, I think that in hindsight you should've had the foresight to first ask her. Hindsight is often useful like that.

C Rutherford
11-11-2015, 10:03 AM
Thom's entry indicates that he was Healed after the encounter with the Myrddraal at Whitebridge by some random unnamed Aes Sedai who could regulate her weaves:

Interesting. If a little odd. I took Samitsu as being one of her kind among the Yellow Ajah in the books until the new Healing comes along. Then it seems Suana can do the same. And even outside of the Companion I always had Chesmal as doing the same but as a means of killing instead of Healing. With Rianna maybe having the same ability but to a lesser degree.

Now either Suana was wandering around Whitebridge or we have an unnamed fourth/fifth?

zacz
You know, I have been mostly picking and choosing as I go through the Companion and pretty much passed on the Amyrlin Seat entries since it seemed they were exactly like the whole list Tor.com put up. It did not occur to me that broken up, it would be confusing. But you are so right! It looks like they took them from a list Jordan had and placed them alphabetically without editing or even parsing that! I would have noticed if they had not put the list up already or I was sitting down and doing a full cover to cover read. I hope I would at least.

The Unreasoner
11-11-2015, 01:19 PM
Based on the way she phrased it to me originally, I assumed that Terez would immediately clarify my hint...

Well you know what they say about assuming:

Neener neener, your ideas are petty and stupid.

Assad 2016!

Terez
11-11-2015, 02:42 PM
Be easy; I would have preferred he didn't say anything, but I can understand why he did. It actually wasn't a private message if I recall; it was a rep message, so the space in which I had to explain my wishes was minimal.

sleepinghour
11-11-2015, 04:07 PM
The worst thing? The ebook doesn't even have each letter as a chapter, so navigating is truly atrocious. Search with last name works, but is nowhere close to simple enough.

If you have Calibre installed, you can convert Kindle files to other formats (like .docx or .html) that are easier to navigate and edit any way you like.

Kimon
11-11-2015, 04:38 PM
Be easy; I would have preferred he didn't say anything, but I can understand why he did. It actually wasn't a private message if I recall; it was a rep message, so the space in which I had to explain my wishes was minimal.

Mea culpa. In your message you said you were waiting for the release of the Companion (well Encylopedia, but that's obviously what you meant), so I figured you'd either be willing to discuss it now, even though the Companion decided it wasn't worth mention, or else would perhaps just be waiting to ask Maria about it tomorrow. So I figured this was a gentle reminder about it without actually stealing your thunder.

Terez
11-11-2015, 05:14 PM
Mea culpa. In your message you said you were waiting for the release of the Companion (well Encylopedia, but that's obviously what you meant), so I figured you'd either be willing to discuss it now, even though the Companion decided it wasn't worth mention, or else would perhaps just be waiting to ask Maria about it tomorrow. So I figured this was a gentle reminder about it without actually stealing your thunder.
I'm not too worried about the thunder. I just want to make sure that we give the Companion room to breathe, not that this will have much effect outside the hard core. I already talked to Maria about it this past JordanCon. And it was the week after the previous JordanCon when I discovered that particular tidbit in the notes. Hard to believe the secret has been kept this long, really.

C Rutherford
11-11-2015, 05:20 PM
yeah I knew I should not have come back here.

I'm off out of the land of neener neener indeed.

Terez
11-11-2015, 05:25 PM
yeah I knew I should not have come back here.

I'm off out of the land of neener neener indeed.
Sorry about that. It probably won't happen again; I can't think of any other big secrets that need to be kept. There is just the one, though it is a double-whammy, and you will know soon enough.

The Unreasoner
11-11-2015, 06:14 PM
The only thing I can guess that fits these annoyingly vague hints is that Taim entered the Tower of Ghenjei.

fionwe1987
11-11-2015, 06:16 PM
So apart from this secret (is it even tied to Taim?), are there other things you feel comfortable discussing, now that the Companion is out?

@Sleepinghour:

I do have calibre, and I have been considering someday working on a linked index.

sleepinghour
11-11-2015, 06:47 PM
yeah I knew I should not have come back here.

I'm off out of the land of neener neener indeed.

It's no big deal, really. Now that the cat's out of the bag, I must confess that I, too, was covertly informed by Terez how male OP strength directly corresponds to the size of their smallclothes. (She didn't precisely use those words, but I informed her of my theory and she blinked; I take that as subtle confirmation.) But that should be intuitively obvious to the most casual observer. It's no coincidence that LTT, Rand, and Rahvin were wildly popular with the ladies as well as being the strongest channelers. So Taim's OP strength was pretty easy to figure out using RJ's smallclothes size list (not to be confused with the Aes Sedai bosom size list, which had no correlation to strength). Frankly, I'm not surprised that they kept that out of the Companion. Much like figs and mice, some secrets are better left untold.

fionwe1987
11-11-2015, 06:56 PM
It's no big deal, really. Now that the cat's out of the bag, I must confess that I, too, was covertly informed by Terez how male OP strength directly corresponds to the size of their smallclothes. (She didn't precisely use those words, but I informed her of my theory and she blinked; I take that as subtle confirmation.) But that should be intuitively obvious to the most casual observer. It's no coincidence that LTT, Rand, and Rahvin were wildly popular with the ladies as well as being the strongest channelers. So Taim's OP strength was pretty easy to figure out using RJ's smallclothes size list (not to be confused with the Aes Sedai bosom size list, which had no correlation to strength). Frankly, I'm not surprised that they kept that out of the Companion. Much like figs and mice, some secrets are better left untold.

I do wonder... since male smallclothes can... expand... does that give a certain flexibility to their potential strengths? :D

The Unreasoner
11-11-2015, 07:23 PM
I think I made a long joke post a while back about the size of Demandred's...equipment.

In any case, correlation doesn't imply causation. Far more likely is the existence of an...expander...weave whose efficacy is a direct function of strength. Therefore, the first thing a male channeler does upon reaching his potential is that which is the most logical (and pathetically predictable): feed his blacklance. If only there were a way to increase, *ahem*, stamina. Blacklances are quick: they dart out, expel venom, and retract in the blink of an eye.

sleepinghour
11-11-2015, 07:50 PM
I do wonder... since male smallclothes can... expand... does that give a certain flexibility to their potential strengths? :D

Good question. More importantly, what happens when somebody uses a sa'angreal? I fear we may never know for certain, but subtle clues can potentially be found on the Winter's Heart ebook cover (http://www.tor.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/winters-heart-ebook.jpg).

fionwe1987
11-12-2015, 02:27 AM
Good question. More importantly, what happens when somebody uses a sa'angreal? I fear we may never know for certain, but subtle clues can potentially be found on the Winter's Heart ebook cover (http://www.tor.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/winters-heart-ebook.jpg).

ROFL! And never forget the Sword that is not a Sword...

sleepinghour
11-17-2015, 02:51 PM
Via Team Jordan's Google+ (http://plus.google.com/103674399065634804648/posts/2ub8DaqYkTr),
The publisher is working on a fix for the ebooks which will make searches much easier.

No other corrections were mentioned, but hopefully they will also take the opportunity to fix various strength level inconsistencies.

Davian93
11-25-2015, 09:50 AM
Finally got the Companion yesterday from Amazon. I will say after my initial 2 hours of skimming that I am pretty disappointed in it. I was hoping for a lot more details and whatnot and maybe more new maps. Even just better maps of the Borderlands (Malkier in particular) and the other great cities. I find it hard to believe that RJ never made a map of Illian or Tear, etc either.

The entries were for the most part not super interesting either. Oh well, just another letdown after the letdown that was aMoL.

ChrisW
03-13-2016, 04:13 AM
Finally just got mine as well...looks ok I guess :)

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-8A1xSZoHQyU/VuKPhviaaDI/AAAAAAAAA6Y/0c1MKWLWv4ocI6axgfrirHgIxKYu5T2fg/s400/12821484_1983278695229939_8046584979493277539_n.jp ghttps://4.bp.blogspot.com/-66by1FJPuSk/VuKPtRJXzRI/AAAAAAAAA6s/U1x-iQAzElcMNtPModudxS13BMvG6RbCQ/s400/12819439_1983278685229940_8056241128630316842_o.jp ghttps://3.bp.blogspot.com/-FAUvdPgU3BI/VuKP1CRBVUI/AAAAAAAAA7Q/KMKVVOwiXzgC4Xw-kaKhwV8DfTWRUlRcA/s400/10415674_1983278688563273_39487155651022132_n.jpgh ttps://3.bp.blogspot.com/-3VoQ9aiAg5U/VuKP--1tzJI/AAAAAAAAA7Q/WiW1UIhYcAkVE9ZE8MSLYFOk-2fLINczA/s400/12828376_1983278691896606_2044194186734576710_o.jp ghttps://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ujvixesl1uQ/VuKQJP9QXVI/AAAAAAAAA7Q/lJG0S78kUlw5BCEp4ihFT-TglFgCVUxQA/s400/12832531_1983278718563270_7419116445508059215_n.jp ghttps://4.bp.blogspot.com/-C-zvN9UezF8/VuKP6fFb8KI/AAAAAAAAA7Q/OxUrVkpfuI4I-iHpzL0MvJWWovfkQfQZA/s400/12819287_1983278715229937_2863022613763599686_o.jp ghttps://3.bp.blogspot.com/-JBf1H-sIIW4/VuKQE7x37HI/AAAAAAAAA7Q/kvnnYqecK0w624qbtdTYQ10ZLQ-CT5aeg/s400/10272520_1983280218563120_8684433229895524243_o.jp g

maleshub
06-20-2016, 06:32 PM
Aviendha's quadruplets .... did I miss something about them? Was she pregnant during the last battle? Or did that happen afterwards?

GonzoTheGreat
06-21-2016, 04:01 AM
She probably was pregnant, but not so much that it was showing, yet, I think. Whether or not she will really have quadruplets is unknown; the future she saw is not the future that she will live through, and for all we know she now got pregnant a month later or earlier than she'd done in the vision future.

I would guess that she did still get quadruplets, but I would say that it is arbitrary rather than necessary.

jarno87
06-21-2016, 08:13 AM
She probably was pregnant, but not so much that it was showing, yet, I think. Whether or not she will really have quadruplets is unknown; the future she saw is not the future that she will live through, and for all we know she now got pregnant a month later or earlier than she'd done in the vision future.

I would guess that she did still get quadruplets, but I would say that it is arbitrary rather than necessary.

I was reading in the companion earlier this week, and in Aviendha's entry it says explicitly at the end that she gave birth to Rand''s quadruplets.
I guess they most likely moment of conception is the night before the big conference at Merillor.

GonzoTheGreat
06-21-2016, 11:05 AM
I guess they most likely moment of conception is the night before the big conference at Merillor.Quite possible, but not necessarily so. It was days or even weeks later that Rand finally went to confront the DO, and during most (maybe all) of that time Aviendha would've had further opportunities. Apart from the times Rand spend fighting on the battle field, I suspect; that would've been a bit awkward.

maleshub
06-21-2016, 10:36 PM
She probably was pregnant, but not so much that it was showing, yet, I think. Whether or not she will really have quadruplets is unknown; the future she saw is not the future that she will live through, and for all we know she now got pregnant a month later or earlier than she'd done in the vision future.

I would guess that she did still get quadruplets, but I would say that it is arbitrary rather than necessary.

I was under the impression that the Quadruplets were a Min viewing; not a Rhuidean ter'angreal vision.

Terez
06-21-2016, 11:03 PM
They were both.

maleshub
06-23-2016, 09:34 PM
They were both.

Min's viewing is certain; whereas the ter'angreal is a probability. Min overrides ter'angreal?

Rand al'Fain
06-23-2016, 10:50 PM
Min's viewing is certain; whereas the ter'angreal is a probability. Min overrides ter'angreal?

Yep. Min is Master Computer Hacker, ter'angreal is only someone's wal-mart laptop that was bought on sale.

GonzoTheGreat
06-24-2016, 05:04 AM
Nitpick: Min's viewing was only guaranteed if Rand and the DO didn't obliterate reality. But since they chose not to do that this time, this is only a theoretical issue, not a practical one. Come to think of it, if reality were obliterated, then it wouldn't be practical either, on account of there not being anything left to practice in.

Note: as usual, I'd forgotten about this viewing of Min's. I don't know why I tend to forget it, but I do know that I remember having noticed such forgetting on a number of occasions already. I sort of wonder when the next time will be.

maleshub
06-25-2016, 04:22 PM
Nitpick: Min's viewing was only guaranteed if Rand and the DO didn't obliterate reality. But since they chose not to do that this time, this is only a theoretical issue, not a practical one. Come to think of it, if reality were obliterated, then it wouldn't be practical either, on account of there not being anything left to practice in.

Note: as usual, I'd forgotten about this viewing of Min's. I don't know why I tend to forget it, but I do know that I remember having noticed such forgetting on a number of occasions already. I sort of wonder when the next time will be.

:) Min's Viewings: The Creator has spoken! You wouldn't want to forget the Voice of The Creator! :D

Min's veiwings, Perrin's wolfdream prophecies, Egwene's dreaming, Foretelling (Gitara, Elaida, Nicola, the Dark Prophecies) Dreamwalker dreams, Aelfinn and elffin (sp), .... too many to keep track of. You're allowed to miss a few ;)

GonzoTheGreat
06-26-2016, 04:26 AM
I'm willing to tolerate (and mock) fallibility in lesser humans. For myself, I have higher standards.

Weird Harold
06-26-2016, 10:04 AM
I'm willing to tolerate (and mock) fallibility in lesser humans. For myself, I have higher standards.
It's nice you have goals to fall short of. :D

maleshub
06-26-2016, 05:45 PM
I'm willing to tolerate (and mock) fallibility in lesser humans. For myself, I have higher standards.

Thou art great, indeed :D

C Rutherford
04-02-2017, 04:04 PM
So I've been drifting through this again. Mainly to make a list of what contradictions there are within it and what contradictions there are with the series.

One thing I have noticed is that the contradictions on some dates is rather amusing. The placement of the Red Sitters following the unseating of the three is all over the place. I saw on a couple of social media fan sites the gushing over how we now know who the Red Sitters were to unseat Siuan. And every one ignores the series themselves that established it was Elaida, Teslyn and Pevara and Jordan at a couple of signings finally clarified with Amira.

Never mind that the real burning question of which was the Blue Sitter that never made it alive out of the Tower following the coup still remains unanswered (I'll put it down to my list obsession that who the rest of the Fal Dara Delegation was being an unanswered mystery as the second most tragic omission*)

But what I found interesting were the entries that I suspect meant Jordan had further use than we saw. And I have fun trying to figure out how he might have gone about it.

The stuff on the vileness and Marith Jaen makes me suspect were some of the ideas he was playing with in regards to the set aside twp remaining prequels. But the entry on Serafelle and the detail on several of the sisters who helped kidnap Rand in Cairhien makes me wonder. Not just because the details are so wrong from the series (we have entries on sisters who were of the Brown, Yellow and Gray ajahs yet in the series there were no Yellows and only Nesune for the Brown and Coiren for the Gray). But also Serafelle's background suggests he was planning on using her in way we never got to see. Compare her entry to Maigan for instance. Or Norine's. It doesn't mean that either the latter two might not have had greater roles, but he clearly didn't have the background set for much at the time it seems to me. Not even a strength level for Norine. Which makes me think she just served to be a bit of a Red Herring in the "who is Mesaana" bit maybe.

Another thing I wonder, is where was Jordan going with some of the contradictions? I get in some ways the Red Sitters. Elaida was the focus in the fourth book and then in the fifth he expands tower politics with her advisory council and muddles it a bit. But then there is the too young sitter thing and for me a good part goes to hell in terms of logic. In the series the chronology simply does not allow me to believe the Sitters who fled the tower had time to be told by their Ajah heads to do so. I'm disappointed that the Ajah heads knowing one another was not better done since the published part of his notes more than once points out that Ajah heads do not know each. Yet in the midst of a Tower split that involves death and violence, there is time to come up with a plan to send out the sisters that were not taken in on the vote to take charge of the rebels according to the Companion. Since the rebels took time to even gather, and didn't even form a true rebellion until Siuan got there to give them the push, how does that work exactly. I think Jordan had some ideas that either didn't pan out or he just got bored with them like he seemed to with Adeleas' murder and tried to wrap it up quickly and easily and just made a bit of a mess in the end. I know the Jordan is Infallible crowd will tie their privates in knots over the idea that the too young sitter plot was a real hash in the end, but there you are.

I'm rambling now.

Anyway I was just airing some thoughts "out loud" and realized how much of a muddle the Companion turns out to be by making it an encyclopedia that provides "facts".

Davian93
04-03-2017, 10:49 AM
You will get no argument from me that the Companion was highly disappointing...or that the Too Young Sitters subplot was pretty much pointless in the end. It was easily one of those things that should have been edited out of the later books to move things along.

fionwe1987
04-03-2017, 06:40 PM
I definitely think the Companion was crap.

About the Too Young Sitters: it seemed pretty obvious to me that they genuinely fled on the day of Siuan's removal. They were all, you'll note, women who weren't invited by Elaida for her minimum Sitting to depose Siuan.

Once a Rebellion started taking shape, they obviously communicated with their Ajah Heads, who told them to stay put to guide the Rebellion back home, and replaced them with temp Sitters who they felt they could easily remove when the Rebellion ended, as they thought it inevitably would.

Remember, the Rebellion was thought initially to be mere grandstanding. The Blues were genuinely pissed and wanted Elaida brought down, but the Ajah Heads thought that most of their own Sisters would come back soon enough.

Till Siuan herself walked into Salidar, I suspect that is exactly what would have happened. The Blues may not have returned, but the rest would have mostly given up. Logain's lies, Elaida's refusal to reinstate the Blues, and Siuan's plotting ended up changing things.

Kimon
04-03-2017, 07:43 PM
I definitely think the Companion was crap.

About the Too Young Sitters: it seemed pretty obvious to me that they genuinely fled on the day of Siuan's removal. They were all, you'll note, women who weren't invited by Elaida for her minimum Sitting to depose Siuan.


Not necessarily.

The usual thinking would seem to be that the six original sitters (i.e. the six non-Blues originals - they, like the reds, had no problem with internal splintering to solve) were sent by the Ajah heads, originally to try to coerce all the rebels back home as seamlessly as possible. Elaida's heavy-handedness towards the blues however, and the bloodshed made this difficult. Once new Halls were raised however the problem got more complicated, again for everyone but the blues and the reds. The others all needed a way to blend their six sitters back down to three as cleanly as possible - hence raising too young sitters, thinking that deference would cause them to toe the party line once the rebellion either ended, or emerged victorious (a possibility which the Ajah heads obviously would have considered all but impossible). It was just to show both the reach of the Ajah heads, and their planning for how to bring the two halls back together.

The wot wiki sums this issue up pretty well.

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Too_Young_Sitters#Unusual_Sitters

The only real oddity is Janya.

Fan theories generally held that someone was responsible for sending some or all of the six original Sitters to the rebels. Under one theory, the Ajah Heads sent them to stymie the rebellion. Support for this came from the fact that five of these six vote against almost every divisive measure put before the Rebel Hall. This theory sees them as taking advantage of the rift between Lelaine and Romanda to sow inaction. For evidence that this division among the five was feigned, they point to the vote to declare war on Elaida, in which the two who normally support Lelaine vote against it, to Lelaine's visible consternation. Another theory held these were the "moles" Elaida told Alviarin she had among the rebels. Still another theory advanced the notion that somehow the Black Ajah was responsible.

The former theory was proven correct. It was confirmed in The Gathering Storm that the Ajah Heads (aside from the Red and Blue) each sent Sitters to the rebels to try to end the rebellion quickly, with nothing more than hurt feelings. It is not clear whether Janya was one of these, but it is noteworthy that among the Ajah Heads' regrets was that "some" of the Sitters came to side with the rebels sometimes more than the Tower. It also emerged that the youthful sitters in the Tower were chosen as part of a plot to put control of the Tower in the hands of the Ajah Heads. The idea was that youthful Sitters would follow instructions from their Ajah Heads. In deciding to support Egwene's ascension to the Amyrlin Seat, they put aside this plan.

The voting patterns in the Rebel Hall suggest that if someone contrived to send Sitters to Salidar, for whatever reason, Janya was not involved. Janya was a Brown Sitter before the schism, but does not belong to either Romanda's faction, nor Lelaine's. Furthermore, she votes with the younger Sitters rather than the original Sitters in every vote. That could explain why the Browns have four normal Sitters where the other Ajahs (excluding the Blue and Red) have three. It is possible that Janya was seen as a genuine rebel because she left on her own initiative and was therefore replaced with the logical next choice for Sitter, Shevan, who was seen as being groomed to replace Saerin. Another explanation put forward was that Saerin intended to step down when the Tower was whole again as she had been seen as likely to step down before long. That theory was severely undercut by fact that Saerin did not step down, with Janya and Takima both rejoining her as Brown Sitters. Janya's resuming her role in the post-Schism Hall can be taken as evidence that the theory about Janya being viewed as a genuine rebel and Shevan's being appointed in her stead was incorrect or merely as evidence of the healing Egwene called for in her speech accepting the rebels' apology.

This just seemed one of the many still slightly loose ends caused by the unfortunate need to bring in an outsider to finish the series. This at least was a pretty minor problem. The only thread that BS really screwed up irreparably was Logain. He completely was cheated of his glory.

The Companion suffered from the problem that it simply didn't have much new to offer compared to pre-existing internet encyclopedia. They should have simply used it as a chance to publish RJ's notes on the series instead. Those would have been of far more interest. At least we have a glimpse at a bit of those because of Terez - and those glimpses have been far more interesting than anything in the Companion.

Davian93
04-04-2017, 09:29 AM
The only thread that BS really screwed up irreparably was Logain. He completely was cheated of his glory.

Yes but at least we got that super cool original character Androl who could basically do everything with gateways and was like super cool and original...and not totally idiotically stupid and completely not in keeping with the story of to that point.

My very favorite part of the last books was his amazing relationship with his Aes Sedai and their critically important exploration of their double bond.

I mean, I reread those scenes every chance I get.

~goes off to break things~

Davian93
04-04-2017, 09:33 AM
They should have simply used it as a chance to publish RJ's notes on the series instead. Those would have been of far more interest. At least we have a glimpse at a bit of those because of Terez - and those glimpses have been far more interesting than anything in the Companion.

They should have used the notes to create a much better and more complete version of the BWB...one that also hopefully contained better illustrations than the original.

Publishing a pure dictionary for the most part was such a letdown.

fionwe1987
04-04-2017, 08:28 PM
Not necessarily.
My bad. I didn't mean to say the Too Young Sitters were excluded from Elaida's coup, but that the senior Sitters among the Rebels were.

The usual thinking would seem to be that the six original sitters (i.e. the six non-Blues originals - they, like the reds, had no problem with internal splintering to solve) were sent by the Ajah heads, originally to try to coerce all the rebels back home as seamlessly as possible. Elaida's heavy-handedness towards the blues however, and the bloodshed made this difficult.
The only issue with this is one of timelines. In Seaine's PoV, she says she was the only Sitter who wasn't part of Elaida's coup who didn't flee. But if the other original Sitters did flee on orders, the Ajah heads needed to have some kind of foreknowledge that the chaos of that day would coalesce into a Rebellion, and chose to send these Sitters to do something about it.

I'm skeptical about that. It seems far more likely to me that these women had stronger relations with the Blues and Siuan, and saw the message in the tea leaves when Siuan was deposed without them being informed of the Sitting. After all, Siuan's confidence that a full Sitting would never depose her must have come in part due to these women. For example, remember that only two Greens sided with the Reds over Siuan's trip to Fal Dara, and those two were almost certainly Rubinde and Talene, meaning Faiselle was clearly in more pro-Siuan camp of the Hall.

I think these women genuinely fled for safety and from anger. But once the heat of the chaos cooled and they saw what the Blues were up to, they wrote to their Ajah Heads, who decided to make them all go to Salidar and steer the Rebellion home.

The alternative is that they stayed back for a bit, but then left, which would have been mighty weird, since their staying back couldn't have been hidden, given their prominence in the Tower.

The wot wiki sums this issue up pretty well.
Yup.

The only real oddity is Janya.
I was always convinced Janya was a genuine rebel. We first saw her with Anaiya, a prominent Blue who seems to have many research collaborators among the Browns.

rand
04-04-2017, 10:15 PM
They should have used the notes to create a much better and more complete version of the BWB...one that also hopefully contained better illustrations than the original.

Publishing a pure dictionary for the most part was such a letdown.
Based on the fact that Brandon and everyone on Team Jordan was (I think) surprised when Terez revealed that Taimandred killed Asmo in the notes, there should be some pretty serious doubts that any of them have gone through the notes at all. Not in detail, at least. Which is pretty disappointing too.

fionwe1987
04-07-2017, 01:22 AM
I was browsing through the Companion again, and had a question. Anyone know why Egwene's entry is so short compared to other main characters? All the others got a fairly detailed summary of their plot arcs, and this included several secondary characters too. I never noticed it before, but Egwene's is an entry shorter than most primary and secondary characters.

Davian93
04-07-2017, 11:13 AM
I was browsing through the Companion again, and had a question. Anyone know why Egwene's entry is so short compared to other main characters? All the others got a fairly detailed summary of their plot arcs, and this included several secondary characters too. I never noticed it before, but Egwene's is an entry shorter than most primary and secondary characters.

Maybe there's a second entry for her under "The Amyrlin"...you see, they're two separate people and all.