PDA

View Full Version : Stranger Danger


The Unreasoner
10-26-2015, 10:01 PM
So the weird pets thing got me thinking about some weird people I've met (specifically, one 'sovereign citizen' that's quite a character herself, and she also had a possum).

I'll post later about her, I wrote something on it elsewhere, it's kinda long so I have to double check it before I post it.

But over the past 4 years I've had no fewer than 3 guys offer to blow me (or, in one case, offer me drugs if I let him). Naturally I was always kind of freaked out and flattered at the same time. What always got me though is how fast it came up in a conversation.

I've also found myself talking to Avon salesmen a coiple times, and it's incredible how cult like it is. They kept talking about how they didn't wan't to waste their life in an office, how they'd be able to retire at thirty, and wondering if I wanted to travel. Of course they sort of beat around the bush (they each said they ran their own marketing company), and I actually didn't realize they were trying to recruit me into the pyramid scheme until after I talked to the second one. I probably came across as a horrible mark though: I told them both I'd blow my brains out in boredom if I retired at thirty, warned them not to pay for useless training or literature, and told them the notion of 'residual income', at least in the context they seemed use it, was pretty much a joke being played by the people holding the underlying capital (whoever they might be). Once I figured out who they were though, I had a little fun and the next time I saw them, I warned them if it was 'some scam like Avon' it was a known pyramid scheme, and listed a bunch of warnings and horror stories I had found out. Naturally, I already knew from someone else that it was Avon, and warned each of them while they were talking to their new mark. And my warnings included a bunch of 'red flag' language that was basically their entire pitch (and I politely waited to warn them until after their pitch to the new targets was done). I have to say, my delivery was excellent (very wide eyed and earnest), and these guys were so thoroughly cast in the image of the perfect salesman that they both politely thanked me for the warning in front of their new marks. Quite funny.

But the impetus for this thread is a guy I met today. I was eating lunch and texting (with headphones on), when a sketchy looking guy came up to me and asked if I knew the area. So I pulled my headphones out and said that I did, a bit. He then asked what I did, and I told him. He then asked if I worked in the area (which, if he had listened to my last response, he would have known the answer was no). I started getting a sketchy vibe, then he asked about local churches. I told him where the Catholic one was then offered to google another one if he wanted. At that, he said something about them not being in walking distance (so he already knew the answer?). At this point I figured he was just going to ask for bus fair or something, but then he asked if we could talk. I asked about what, then he got mad and said something like 'Don't piss me off, my mom just died' (which sounded like a lie). I said fine, he could take a seat at the table and we could talk. To which he refused, and asked to go over to a bench. Which wasn't far, but it was more secluded, and it gave me a stronger sketchy vibe. I asked what was wrong with the table, and he said he didn't want to be overheard. We're outdoors, it's loud, and no one is closer than ten feet, so this is clearly bullshit. I point out that no one will overhear us, then he asks why I won't just go to the bench, as if I was the one being unreasonable. I ask what he wants to talk about, and he angrily asks why he needs a specific topic. I decide to compromise and go to a closer bench (without waitng for him to respond), figuring that it's far enough from anyone that he can't legitimately worry about eavesdropping while at the same time being in a spot that everyone can see (and from multiple directions). So he sits next to me, and asks how old I am. I ask what difference it makes, and he snaps that I 'really' needed to stop pissing him off. So I give him a fake age that's close, and he snaps that he's forty two and that I need to respect my elders. At this point I'm furious but he doesn't seem to notice. I remind him that he asked if I knew the area, and once again offer to google directions to somewhere for him. At this, he just says he's leaving.

So wtf was this? He didn't ask for money or directions, we weren't in an area where people frequently buy or sell drugs (and I clearly wasn't interested in talking to him), also neither of us seemed to have any room to store either drugs or a great deal of cash (we were both wearing short sleeve shirts and jeans, though he was carrying a coat). The bench he was pushing for was secluded, but not hidden, someone would have noticed if he started to kill/rob/blow me. Plus there's loads of cops in the area. He didn't seem mentally challenged or mentally ill, just angry (and sketchy as hell). So what the hell was this? Did I just treat some random guy who just lost his mom rudely? Did I narrowly avoid winding up in his freezer? This really unsettled me.

Ozymandias
10-26-2015, 10:55 PM
The most bizarre part of this story is how long you let it go on.

I don't think its just the New York neuroses talking when I say that that dude is up to no good and you should have either left in a hurry or called the police.

Also, I was tickled pink that the multiple men who have asked you to let them blow you was the throwaway line in this story.

Davian93
10-27-2015, 08:20 AM
You're way too friendly. I would have walked away quickly.

Brita
10-27-2015, 12:20 PM
I agree with Ozy and Dav- when your spidey senses are going off you need to just get out of the situation. We are raised to not be rude (especially here in Canada) and we end up in more danger than we ever need to be because of that. Give yourself permission to be "rude" and just get the hell out of there next time.

Of course, you don't end up with the cool stories, but you also end up alive ;)

Davian93
10-27-2015, 12:28 PM
I usually mutter something in German when someone sketchy asks for something...I figure most people don't speak German anyway so they'll just assume I'm a foreigner and move on.

Back on your story, he sounds like he was borderline or completely mentally ill and he was scoping out a potential victim. Had you gone to the bench, you might be chopped up into little pieces in a duffel bag right now.

Also, to reiterate, you're way, way too nice. Did you grow up in a rural area or small town?

Ivhon
10-27-2015, 12:50 PM
What they said. Listen to your gut - it is very smart about danger. If it is telling you that there is danger, there probably is. Or at least a greater than normal risk. And if its wrong, so what? You don't owe strangers anything - despite what bleeding-heart FB stories might indicate about appearances being deceiving and whatnot.

Please be safe. Politely and respectfully disengage.

Daekyras
10-27-2015, 02:36 PM
Hmmm. I've often been described as "overly" friendly. I don't mean that in a creepy way!

I am almost certain I would have been in much the same situation as you. I would have been offering to Google stuff and trying to engage in conversation. It really does sound like you were in quite the danger there Unreasoner.

I do have to ask though- I'm a friendly guy. I like to think I'm not bad looking either. But in 20 years of going out and meeting people and drinking (a lot) I have never once had a guy ask me to blow him or requested to blow me.

How do these situations arise. So, you know, I can run away if it ever comes up...;)

Figbiscuit
10-29-2015, 08:27 AM
Too nice. Waaaaay too nice.

I tend to avoid eye contact with strangers so mostly avoid situations like that, thankfully. I also work behind a bar so get a totally different type of character, particularly after midnight. Sadly nothing which springs to mind as an entertaining tale tho.

Rand al'Fain
10-29-2015, 11:34 PM
Too nice. Also, when your gut is giving you an obvious warning, listen to it. May have been mentally ill, but also may have been looking to take what he could by pulling out a concealed weapon, like a knife or handgun, in order to get what he wanted. Cell phone, credit card, cash, jewellery, whatever.

tworiverswoman
11-04-2015, 09:17 PM
The fact that he was "carrying a coat" drew my attention, actually. I have no clue where you are or what the temperature is, but it sounded to me like the coat might have been useful in concealing a weapon. But like everyone else, I wonder why on Earth you kept dealing with him. The moment he told you you shouldn't piss him off was the moment I would have gotten up and walked away (possibly to the nearest cop, if you could see one).

Losing your mom can be painful, but offers no excuse to accost a complete stranger as ... clumsily ... as he did you.

Are you adorable looking or something? I feel like Ozy - the most head-shaking part of your post is the third paragraph. Which wasn't even relevant to the story.


ETA: In regards to your Avon story - I got entangled in Amway about 30 years ago - same premise. Happily, the only real reason I joined up was so I could buy their products at a Dealer's price. Unhappily, the products weren't really all that terrific, and I spent too much money on crap. Luckily, they aren't nearly as obnoxious about getting you involved as Scientologists. THOSE people my boss finally had to make leave me alone, for which I was profoundly grateful.

yks 6nnetu hing
11-05-2015, 02:51 AM
uh. How old are you? Just so I can picture this better in my head. Any which way, this is so weird. Then again, when I was a kid my mom used to tell me NEVER to talk to strangers, even if they're in uniform - anyone asking pointed questions is likely to get you in trouble somehow, worst case scenario being Siberia or some such like.

Which, in hindsight is pretty funny considering how genuinely interested she is in all sorts of new religions/esoterics. Probaly because religion was forbidden, so now she's bouncing back.

The closest to what you described that ever happened to me personally was last summer: a whole bunch of us were having lunch at a café, sitting in the sun outside, kids (belonging to "the group") playing nearby. Comes this neat-looking guy, with a clip-board and we all think "oh no, he wants to talk about God or politics" and asks, very politely, where the nearest weed-shop is. Only in Amsterdam...

Daekyras
11-05-2015, 11:21 AM
Are you adorable looking or something? I feel like Ozy - the most head-shaking part of your post is the third paragraph. Which wasn't even relevant to the story.


Unreasoner doesn't need looks. I've pointed out before he sucks people in with the sexy maths talk.

yks 6nnetu hing
11-09-2015, 02:53 AM
I thought of starting a new thread but then thought the topic is pretty much the same. So, a matter of social etiquette, right:

in the Gym: if I have my headphones on, DO NOT TALK TO ME (unless the building is on fire, I'm on fire or you need to know how long until you can use the equipment I'm currently using). Do not try to hit on me. *shudder*

in the Sauna: The only acceptable interaction between strangers in the sauna is to 1) ask where certain facilities are or 2) ask someone to scoot over a little. If you just met me DO NOT TALK TO ME. Under NO circumstances is it ok to touch me you fuckin perv. No, not even to shake my hand. No, I'm not interested in your dinner plans nor in joining you for dinner. and NO, I will NOT go in the hot tub with you. Yes, I realize the Dutch sauna's are mixed and nude**, yes I know you have seen all of me and you like it apparently enough to go all creepy. But dude, the Dutch mind their own fuckin business and very politely see people only enough not to bump into them. If you like the mixed nude sauna, respect it and everyone else inside it goddamnit.

In general: if you're talking to someone, and they answer in monosyllables and do not ask any follow-up questions about you, take the hint and stop talking. Just because I don't want to be rude and tell you to piss off does not mean I like you and want to keep talking to you.


**because, honestly, who wants to sit in their sweated-through swimwear? That's just disgusting.

ETA: you know, this was the exact kind of thing where people might go "I'm married" - but you know what? My relationship status has nothing at all to do with the fact that you're being inappropriate. My state of clothing has nothing to do with the fact that you're being inappropriate. If I can see you but not talk to you, how about you try the same? If I can see you but not touch you, you can keep your hands to yourself too, ok?

Daekyras
11-09-2015, 11:04 AM
I thought of starting a new thread but then thought the topic is pretty much the same. So, a matter of social etiquette, right:

in the Gym: if I have my headphones on, DO NOT TALK TO ME (unless the building is on fire, I'm on fire or you need to know how long until you can use the equipment I'm currently using). Do not try to hit on me. *shudder*

in the Sauna: The only acceptable interaction between strangers in the sauna is to 1) ask where certain facilities are or 2) ask someone to scoot over a little. If you just met me DO NOT TALK TO ME. Under NO circumstances is it ok to touch me you fuckin perv. No, not even to shake my hand. No, I'm not interested in your dinner plans nor in joining you for dinner. and NO, I will NOT go in the hot tub with you. Yes, I realize the Dutch sauna's are mixed and nude**, yes I know you have seen all of me and you like it apparently enough to go all creepy. But dude, the Dutch mind their own fuckin business and very politely see people only enough not to bump into them. If you like the mixed nude sauna, respect it and everyone else inside it goddamnit.

In general: if you're talking to someone, and they answer in monosyllables and do not ask any follow-up questions about you, take the hint and stop talking. Just because I don't want to be rude and tell you to piss off does not mean I like you and want to keep talking to you.


**because, honestly, who wants to sit in their sweated-through swimwear? That's just disgusting.

ETA: you know, this was the exact kind of thing where people might go "I'm married" - but you know what? My relationship status has nothing at all to do with the fact that you're being inappropriate. My state of clothing has nothing to do with the fact that you're being inappropriate. If I can see you but not talk to you, how about you try the same? If I can see you but not touch you, you can keep your hands to yourself too, ok?

Holy hell! That sounds so uncomfortable. They actually touch you? Urgh.

We are quite reserved here in ireland. Saunas are bathing suit affairs although they can be mixed. But I would never, or even imagine a scenario, where I would hit on someone in one.

It just seems so....well you said it best: Creepy.

yks 6nnetu hing
11-10-2015, 01:51 AM
Holy hell! That sounds so uncomfortable. They actually touch you? Urgh.

We are quite reserved here in ireland. Saunas are bathing suit affairs although they can be mixed. But I would never, or even imagine a scenario, where I would hit on someone in one.

It just seems so....well you said it best: Creepy.

no, they normally don't. See, the thing's this: my gym is attached to this big spa complex, and my gym membership comes with an hour a day (i.e. an hour about twice a week when I go to the gym) of spa/sauna access. Now, I've been going to this place for maybe a year and this is the first time something like this has happened. Weirdly, or maybe predictably, it wasn't a local who went all creepster, it was a tourist or expat. Because "everyone knows", in Amsterdam, every second female you meet is a hooker or, like, really loose?

DahLliA
11-10-2015, 04:07 PM
In Norway it's really simple.

If the person you want to talk to has had more than three beers, go ahead. If not, sit down(but not too close of course), shut up and wait until they've had three or more beers :p

The Unreasoner
11-10-2015, 05:54 PM
In response to the various questions:

I'm 25, and while I have been called handsome, I haven't been called such by someone I knew wasn't biased. My mom looks a lot like Jennifer Connelly, and I mostly take after her, if that helps. I definitely didn't grow up in a rural area. I'm not particularly nice, but I am polite and curious. Which is why I let that go on so long. I knew something was wrong, but for the life of me couldn't (and can't) say what. He didn't have a weapon. I've lived in places where people sometimes do, and have learned to check. In any case, I was at a Whole Foods in a San Francisco suburb, and would have been shocked if there was any real danger. But I still have no idea what might have been going on.

However, even if he had had a weapon, the sauna story is waaay worse. A guy hitting on a girl in a confined space while blasting her with his vaporized ball sweat? Urgh. I've heard that it's generally correct for a guy to not even get on an elevator if there's a girl alone in it. How much more inappropriate is the sauna pervert? Ick.

Daekyras
11-11-2015, 07:13 AM
no, they normally don't. See, the thing's this: my gym is attached to this big spa complex, and my gym membership comes with an hour a day (i.e. an hour about twice a week when I go to the gym) of spa/sauna access. Now, I've been going to this place for maybe a year and this is the first time something like this has happened. Weirdly, or maybe predictably, it wasn't a local who went all creepster, it was a tourist or expat. Because "everyone knows", in Amsterdam, every second female you meet is a hooker or, like, really loose?
Really??

I feel like i wasted my trips to amsterdam now. I was enjoying canals and art and anne frank and all that. Dammit.

Daekyras
11-11-2015, 07:16 AM
In response to the various questions:

I'm 25, and while I have been called handsome, I haven't been called such by someone I knew wasn't biased. My mom looks a lot like Jennifer Connelly, and I mostly take after her, if that helps. I definitely didn't grow up in a rural area. I'm not particularly nice, but I am polite and curious. Which is why I let that go on so long. I knew something was wrong, but for the life of me couldn't (and can't) say what. He didn't have a weapon. I've lived in places where people sometimes do, and have learned to check. In any case, I was at a Whole Foods in a San Francisco suburb, and would have been shocked if there was any real danger. But I still have no idea what might have been going on.

However, even if he had had a weapon, the sauna story is waaay worse. A guy hitting on a girl in a confined space while blasting her with his vaporized ball sweat? Urgh. I've heard that it's generally correct for a guy to not even get on an elevator if there's a girl alone in it. How much more inappropriate is the sauna pervert? Ick.

Ok, Tell your mam I said Hi.....HaHa, how childish of me. Sorry TU.

Im not sure about the elevator thing. If you keep your distance and don't try and force small talk I don;t think its that bad. But then, I don't like forcing small talk with men in elevators either.

yks 6nnetu hing
11-11-2015, 08:14 AM
Really??

I feel like i wasted my trips to amsterdam now. I was enjoying canals and art and anne frank and all that. Dammit.

eh. I'm just so goddamn tired of explaining to everyone I meet that just because I happen to live and work in Amsterdam, does not automatically mean that I'm a prostitute. Nor does it mean that I'm high all the time.

I know it's not quite that dramatically bad and not everyone automatically assumes something like this. But still, it happens often enough that I feel the need to print the FAQ on my shirt or something.

Im not sure about the elevator thing. If you keep your distance and don't try and force small talk I don;t think its that bad. But then, I don't like forcing small talk with men in elevators either.

agreed. I mean... I think it's been said enough in various social media and here on TL and all but... Honestly, men are just people and women are just people. No matter whether you're a man or a woman, or whether you like women or men, any kind of creepiness toward an unsuspecting victim is just wrong. just don't do it. Has nothing to do with men/women, it's about being a decent human being.

Just because I don't want to be a jerk is no invitation for the guy to "try harder". I mean... which normal person needs to be told to fuck off in those exact words in order to get the point? Clearly, this guy was not normal.

in other news, I may have seriously shocked the poor girl at the reception counter yesterday when I reported the incident.

GonzoTheGreat
11-11-2015, 09:22 AM
But still, it happens often enough that I feel the need to print the FAQ on my shirt or something.
Wouldn't it be a better idea to print the FNAQ* list, instead?

* Frequently Not Asked Questions.

Nazbaque
11-11-2015, 10:12 AM
Wouldn't it be a better idea to print the FNAQ* list, instead?

* Frequently Not Asked Questions.

Or just the Frequently Ignored Answer: No.

GonzoTheGreat
11-11-2015, 12:11 PM
Come to think of it: I'm not actually sure that having such answers printed on your shirt would do much good when you're not wearing that shirt in the sauna. There may be a flaw in the scheme, somewhere, I fear.

Daekyras
11-11-2015, 12:34 PM
eh. I'm just so goddamn tired of explaining to everyone I meet that just because I happen to live and work in Amsterdam, does not automatically mean that I'm a prostitute. Nor does it mean that I'm high all the time.


I feel ya. Or at least I would if I wasn't a dancing leprechaun who is permanently drunk...;)

The Unreasoner
11-11-2015, 01:29 PM
Were they shocked by the incident, or that you reported it?

As for the elevator thing, I kind of meant at night. Like how you have to either pass a woman quickly or slow down enough for her to get a ways in front of you when you're walking late at night. Or so I've heard. A number of women in the Bay Area have said something like that in various forums. Men need to be aware that they do not have complete freedom of behavior, in order to respect a woman's sense of safety. It can be too aggressive if you walk behind a woman at the same pace as her at night.

Nazbaque
11-11-2015, 02:23 PM
Well there is that, but you have to consider the individual in question. There are women who take that behaviour as an insult as if you were calling her a coward or weak or something along those lines. Personally I find that a nod and a smile works on both types, seems to calm both the temperamental and the fearful and those who aren't really either usually appreciate politeness.

Daekyras
11-11-2015, 05:26 PM
If I'm walking I have headphones in. This means that I am not really Switched on to who is around me. Man, woman or child I just walk kinda oblivious to them.

But I do have a funny story about this- our summers are spent in sligo(near the coast) and I have a few friends in the area. One of them is a lad who enjoys biking. One evening he went for a walk on the beach and didn't want to leave his helmet on the bike so took it with him.

On his way back he put the helmet on and his gloves to get ready to ride. Cue screams from two ladies as he materialised out of the darkness of the beach in full leathers and helmet as they started a night time stroll! They were so scared the called the guards (irish police) on him!

NB in this country our guards are unarmed(and incredibly brave to still be so) so the worst that will happen is a bit of embarrassment. I know in the states he could have ended up shot.

yks 6nnetu hing
11-12-2015, 02:06 AM
Were they shocked by the incident, or that you reported it?

As for the elevator thing, I kind of meant at night. Like how you have to either pass a woman quickly or slow down enough for her to get a ways in front of you when you're walking late at night. Or so I've heard. A number of women in the Bay Area have said something like that in various forums. Men need to be aware that they do not have complete freedom of behavior, in order to respect a woman's sense of safety. It can be too aggressive if you walk behind a woman at the same pace as her at night.

The incident, for sure. I made sure to tell them that this was the first time in over a year that I'd been going there that something like this had happened and if it had been a regular, I would have noticed (people with a subscription have a yellow wrist-pass). Still, it must be nasty to hear that at your place of work someone's been behaving that badly.

Well there is that, but you have to consider the individual in question. There are women who take that behaviour as an insult as if you were calling her a coward or weak or something along those lines. Personally I find that a nod and a smile works on both types, seems to calm both the temperamental and the fearful and those who aren't really either usually appreciate politeness.

this. Or, be clearly minding your own business.

Crispin's Crispian
11-12-2015, 02:21 PM
But the impetus for this thread is a guy I met today. I was eating lunch and texting (with headphones on), when a sketchy looking guy came up to me and asked if I knew the area. So I pulled my headphones out and said that I did, a bit. He then asked what I did, and I told him. He then asked if I worked in the area (which, if he had listened to my last response, he would have known the answer was no). I started getting a sketchy vibe, then he asked about local churches. I told him where the Catholic one was then offered to google another one if he wanted. At that, he said something about them not being in walking distance (so he already knew the answer?). At this point I figured he was just going to ask for bus fair or something, but then he asked if we could talk. I asked about what, then he got mad and said something like 'Don't piss me off, my mom just died' (which sounded like a lie). I said fine, he could take a seat at the table and we could talk. To which he refused, and asked to go over to a bench. Which wasn't far, but it was more secluded, and it gave me a stronger sketchy vibe. I asked what was wrong with the table, and he said he didn't want to be overheard. We're outdoors, it's loud, and no one is closer than ten feet, so this is clearly bullshit. I point out that no one will overhear us, then he asks why I won't just go to the bench, as if I was the one being unreasonable. I ask what he wants to talk about, and he angrily asks why he needs a specific topic. I decide to compromise and go to a closer bench (without waitng for him to respond), figuring that it's far enough from anyone that he can't legitimately worry about eavesdropping while at the same time being in a spot that everyone can see (and from multiple directions). So he sits next to me, and asks how old I am. I ask what difference it makes, and he snaps that I 'really' needed to stop pissing him off. So I give him a fake age that's close, and he snaps that he's forty two and that I need to respect my elders. At this point I'm furious but he doesn't seem to notice. I remind him that he asked if I knew the area, and once again offer to google directions to somewhere for him. At this, he just says he's leaving.

He was an informant, and you were supposed to be his contact. He gave you a few different code words, and the Catholic church must have been close enough. He was distraught and frustrated because either he had important information to pass on, or he desperately needed whatever goodies his contacts normally supply. Most likely, it was both.

He wanted to move to the bench because he couldn't be sure your location was not bugged. After all, his contacts are always at that table.

After you missed the final mark on the age question, he finally confirmed that you were not the person he wanted.

Or he was a mentally ill drug addict hoping you had something for him.

The Unreasoner
11-12-2015, 05:44 PM
A company I work with is trying to become more equal (in a gender sense). I was talking with some of the people there about what they're doing, and apparently they got the walking and elevator info in the surveys.

They seem to be doing a decent job. They may give as little maternity leave as possible, but they're (vocally) anti parent, not anti-mom. They do pay for childcare though, and give decent health insurance. Some of the ideas they implemented were laughably condescending (like Cupcake Day), while others sounded intriguing. For instance, they've apparently shown that you can get rid of the wage gap by considering women for promotions and raises slightly more frequently than the men, to account for men asking for more up front. And now they'll reimburse most of your gym membership of your choice, instead of just sending everyone to the same gym, so now you can join a women-only gym. Apparently that was received very well. But guys in gyms are frequently kind of slimy, so it was practically necessary. I can only imagine how bad things would have been if we had saunas over here. An employee gun program, perhaps?

DahLliA
11-16-2015, 07:42 AM
For instance, they've apparently shown that you can get rid of the wage gap by considering women for promotions and raises slightly more frequently than the men, to account for men asking for more up front.

This is the sort of crap that creates anti-feminists.

If there really is that big of a gap because women don't ask for raises, then simply give everyone the same raise and stop with the individual treatment.

Either treat everyone equally or accept that there will be differences between people. Based on a lot of factors, not just if your funny-bits are outside or inside.

yks 6nnetu hing
11-16-2015, 08:38 AM
This is the sort of crap that creates anti-feminists.

If there really is that big of a gap because women don't ask for raises, then simply give everyone the same raise and stop with the individual treatment.

Either treat everyone equally or accept that there will be differences between people. Based on a lot of factors, not just if your funny-bits are outside or inside.

On the one hand I agree with you about treating people equally. Because, well, that way you get the biggest benefit for the most people.

On the other hand, unfortunately, even though the funny bits aren't the ones making decisions, they do influence the decisions. it's the hormones which... well, to take an example from my own recent past. So, I've been increasingly stressed for various reasons, at work it's been... let's just say one big messy disappointment since about July. the last few weeks have taken an exponential turn to the worse (thankfully, for my part of the project only... the rest of it is going fairly well), which in combination with PMS resulted in a meltdown last week. Now, I'm not blaming PMS in any way, I'm just saying that sometimes even if you KNOW that you're being influenced by The Devil and therefore are probably overreacting just a little bit; and even if you're so used to correcting your reaction accordingly, sometimes you just can't help it and stress + hormones = fugly mess.

Now, the fugly mess can be spectacularly different for men and women. Men throw a computer through the window or kick a train, women cry. Men pick a fight with someone, women disconnect and go for a 2-hour walk. Men get drunk, women binge eat.

The same general differences exist when things go well. Men talk themselves up ridiculously easily. Women generally don't. When asked whether they can handle a new task, a man thinks "No clue but I'll learn on the job so I'll say yes" and a woman thinks "I don't know how to do this now, I could pick it up easily but I want to be honest about right now, so I'll say no".

Now, if you know that these very basic differences exist, then why ignore them?

Daekyras
11-16-2015, 08:51 AM
On the one hand I agree with you about treating people equally. Because, well, that way you get the biggest benefit for the most people.

On the other hand, unfortunately, even though the funny bits aren't the ones making decisions, they do influence the decisions. it's the hormones which... well, to take an example from my own recent past. So, I've been increasingly stressed for various reasons, at work it's been... let's just say one big messy disappointment since about July. the last few weeks have taken an exponential turn to the worse (thankfully, for my part of the project only... the rest of it is going fairly well), which in combination with PMS resulted in a meltdown last week. Now, I'm not blaming PMS in any way, I'm just saying that sometimes even if you KNOW that you're being influenced by The Devil and therefore are probably overreacting just a little bit; and even if you're so used to correcting your reaction accordingly, sometimes you just can't help it and stress + hormones = fugly mess.

Now, the fugly mess can be spectacularly different for men and women. Men throw a computer through the window or kick a train, women cry. Men pick a fight with someone, women disconnect and go for a 2-hour walk. Men get drunk, women binge eat.

The same general differences exist when things go well. Men talk themselves up ridiculously easily. Women generally don't. When asked whether they can handle a new task, a man thinks "No clue but I'll learn on the job so I'll say yes" and a woman thinks "I don't know how to do this now, I could pick it up easily but I want to be honest about right now, so I'll say no".

Now, if you know that these very basic differences exist, then why ignore them?

Ouch. I hope work gets better for you soon. It can be very tough when stuff doesn't go right.

I'm not sure your description of how men and women react is entirely true. I know lots of people that react the exact opposite of how you describe here.

yks 6nnetu hing
11-16-2015, 08:56 AM
Ouch. I hope work gets better for you soon. It can be very tough when stuff doesn't go right.

I'm not sure your description of how men and women react is entirely true. I know lots of people that react the exact opposite of how you describe here.

well, yeah. Sure, that's the individual differences. I mean, a male colleague of mine gets stress-triggered migraines same as I do. I once had a female coworker who picked a (verbal) fight with someone at least once a day. People are different. Still, stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason.

Nazbaque
11-16-2015, 09:01 AM
Now, if you know that these very basic differences exist, then why ignore them?

Well the problem there are the people who believe these differences are an absolute rule rather than a general guide line. There are a lot of things that apply to most men, but not to most women and vice versa, yet when you try to add it all up you'll find that the men and women to whom it all applies are a very small minority. Thus any office policy based on such a collective ends up being destructive to the whole. A different word for perfect is "flawless" and such a policy would have flaws from everyone's POV even though they don't agree on what the flaws are.

Daekyras
11-16-2015, 09:31 AM
well, yeah. Sure, that's the individual differences. I mean, a male colleague of mine gets stress-triggered migraines same as I do. I once had a female coworker who picked a (verbal) fight with someone at least once a day. People are different. Still, stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason.

Thats the problem though- if you stereotype you run the risk of making a bigger cock-up then originally planned. Each case should be judged on its merits.

In Ireland there is a wage gap between men and women and men are more likely to be promoted. This is generally put down to the "Baby Menace" though. A lady is more likely to take time off for maternity etc. We seem to have a pretty good handle on treating men and women equally I think.

Although they did instigate gender quotas for the upcoming general election. Kinda unfair but if it encourages more women to take up politics I am all for it.

yks 6nnetu hing
11-16-2015, 09:59 AM
Thats the problem though- if you stereotype you run the risk of making a bigger cock-up then originally planned. Each case should be judged on its merits.

In Ireland there is a wage gap between men and women and men are more likely to be promoted. This is generally put down to the "Baby Menace" though. A lady is more likely to take time off for maternity etc. We seem to have a pretty good handle on treating men and women equally I think.

Although they did instigate gender quotas for the upcoming general election. Kinda unfair but if it encourages more women to take up politics I am all for it.

again, the whole work equality thing has two sides. First is equal pay for equal work. This is getting there by now, though a certain amount of pay gap still exists, unfortunately. The second issue is the sort of work men do vs the sort of work women do. Again, different countries are different*, but in general, women tend to work in lower-paying professions. Women are teachers, nurses, cleaners, servers/waitresses, cashiers. In offices, women are in clerical or administrative positions rather than specialist/engineering/management positions. Even if women and men on the same position get the same salary, women still earn less because they work at a job that gets paid less.

I mean, I'm not saying "let's pay the secretary as much as a CEO" or "the cleaning lady needs to earn as much as the Engineer", because obviously that would not solve anything. the communists tried and it failed spectacularly. Clearly, it's more about ensuring women are qualified for higher paying jobs. Which means encouraging girls to study more / study more economics, maths, science, physics, engineering, IT and so on.



*something of an outlier, in Estonia women make 90+ % of all teachers and 90+ % or all doctors, with the exception of surgeons (those are almost all men). in IT, women and men are employed roughly equally. However, Estonia has one of the largest pay gaps for the same work in EU for the same work between genders.

Daekyras
11-16-2015, 10:34 AM
again, the whole work equality thing has two sides. First is equal pay for equal work. This is getting there by now, though a certain amount of pay gap still exists, unfortunately. The second issue is the sort of work men do vs the sort of work women do. Again, different countries are different*, but in general, women tend to work in lower-paying professions. Women are teachers, nurses, cleaners, servers/waitresses, cashiers. In offices, women are in clerical or administrative positions rather than specialist/engineering/management positions. Even if women and men on the same position get the same salary, women still earn less because they work at a job that gets paid less.

I mean, I'm not saying "let's pay the secretary as much as a CEO" or "the cleaning lady needs to earn as much as the Engineer", because obviously that would not solve anything. the communists tried and it failed spectacularly. Clearly, it's more about ensuring women are qualified for higher paying jobs. Which means encouraging girls to study more / study more economics, maths, science, physics, engineering, IT and so on.



*something of an outlier, in Estonia women make 90+ % of all teachers and 90+ % or all doctors, with the exception of surgeons (those are almost all men). in IT, women and men are employed roughly equally. However, Estonia has one of the largest pay gaps for the same work in EU for the same work between genders.

Oh I agree with you on that Yks.

I was trying to compare like with like.

In ireland a man generally earns more than a woman of the exact same qualifications and in the same job. To me, this is unfair. the reason given is the Baby issue I mentioned earlier.( or at least thats the most common explanation)

Due to our free education policy there isn't a gender bias in colleges as a whole.(girls are slightly more likely to attend). But there is a clear difference in the subjects chosen. Engineering and architecture are male dominated. Arts and business female.

Science and medicine are meant to be gender balanced but on account of girls making much better students and those are higher points courses(our system is based on points- 600 being highest achievable)girls tend to get into them more.

So when an engineer gets their degree at say 23. They go into a job.

Man: 43000 euro.

Girl; 43000 euro.

The starting salary is the same.

15 years later

Man: 72000 and a more senior position.

Woman: 69000 and a more senior position

another ten years:

Man: 76500 and partner

Woman: 72000 and not partner.

We almost all start at the same pay grade but over time the women lose out.

edit: when I first started teaching in regular secondary school, not college, I was one of two men on the staff of 53. the other guy was the principal.

The Unreasoner
11-16-2015, 02:27 PM
In America, the starting salaries are rarely the same. And the gap just gets wider. I don't think they really care much either way, but they recently were put in an embarassing situation when it came out that they only had three female employees, and they made the least out of anyone in their position except one guy. Two of them are on the most productive team in the company. It's not like anyone will see the women being evaluated more frequently. It might even be illegal to put that in writing. But they seem confident that their numbers will look better across the board in 9 months. While I am annoyed that every other Thursday will now have cupcakes instead of In n Out, it's not like I go there all the time anyway. Quotas are stupid. A little tweaking behind the scenes makes things run smoothly, and what the mra don't know won't hurt them.

Rand al'Fain
11-16-2015, 05:04 PM
In America, the starting salaries are rarely the same. And the gap just gets wider. I don't think they really care much either way, but they recently were put in an embarassing situation when it came out that they only had three female employees, and they made the least out of anyone in their position except one guy. Two of them are on the most productive team in the company. It's not like anyone will see the women being evaluated more frequently. It might even be illegal to put that in writing. But they seem confident that their numbers will look better across the board in 9 months. While I am annoyed that every other Thursday will now have cupcakes instead of In n Out, it's not like I go there all the time anyway. Quotas are stupid. A little tweaking behind the scenes makes things run smoothly, and what the mra don't know won't hurt them.

Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% women earning the same as men in the work place. But one thing that bugs me are the celebrities. "Oh no, I don't get as many millions as that guy does! I only make $20 million a year!"

The problems of the filthy rich. Outside of things like that, go for it.

Kimon
11-16-2015, 05:08 PM
Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% women earning the same as men in the work place. But one thing that bugs me are the celebrities. "Oh no, I don't get as many millions as that guy does! I only make $20 million a year!"

The problems of the filthy rich. Outside of things like that, go for it.

Jennifer Lawrence's complaints were justified. She realized she was making significantly less than the other men who were co-starring with her in the same pictures. It, as is often the case, highlighted the power and importance of transparency.

Daekyras
11-16-2015, 05:45 PM
Jennifer Lawrence's complaints were justified. She realized she was making significantly less than the other men who were co-starring with her in the same pictures. It, as is often the case, highlighted the power and importance of transparency.

She needs a better agent.

But, outside of a few notable exceptions, women are not major movie box office draws.
Less and less people are these days(they seem to be mad for spectacle movies).

Ozymandias
11-16-2015, 07:03 PM
Jennifer Lawrence's complaints were justified. She realized she was making significantly less than the other men who were co-starring with her in the same pictures. It, as is often the case, highlighted the power and importance of transparency.

Her complaints were utter BS. Movie stars are paid in proportion to the box office take they can bring in (or are expected to). Hence why idiots like Adam Sandler are still among the highest earners; he has a devoted fanbase of slobbering morons who see everything he does.

If Jennifer Lawrence wants to be paid more, she she either act in films with a broader appeal. Compare the lists of top films with top earning film stars. The overlap is enormous. Perhaps Jennifer Lawrence should be more concerned with her agent only negotiating her a tiny (relatively) pay raise for the later Hunger Games movies.

When she can prove that she's making less than comparable male actors as opposed to her box office take, I'll listen. But not now.

Davian93
11-16-2015, 07:20 PM
Hence why idiots like Adam Sandler are still among the highest earners; he has a devoted fanbase of slobbering morons who see everything he does.

He very smartly owns his own production company (Happy Madison) and thus makes the real money for his movies. His movies might all suck but they almost always make a good profit as do the ones he simply produces like Mall Cop 1 and Mall Cop 2...so, in a way, he's a really good businessman who realized where the real money in Hollywood is.

On the female side of that equation, Sandra Bullock does the same thing which is why she's worth roughly $200 million per the Googles. Same with Mel Gibson being ridiculous wealthy ($425 million net worth) because of his production company too (Passion of the Christ was produced entirely by him so he pocketed all that profit)

Rand al'Fain
11-16-2015, 10:40 PM
While his live action films have certainly sucked hard the last several years, Hotel Transylvania was actually good. Haven't seen the sequel, but the first one was good. Not great, not Jack and Jill (thankfully), but it was good.

yks 6nnetu hing
11-17-2015, 03:44 AM
Her complaints were utter BS. Movie stars are paid in proportion to the box office take they can bring in (or are expected to). Hence why idiots like Adam Sandler are still among the highest earners; he has a devoted fanbase of slobbering morons who see everything he does.

If Jennifer Lawrence wants to be paid more, she she either act in films with a broader appeal. Compare the lists of top films with top earning film stars. The overlap is enormous. Perhaps Jennifer Lawrence should be more concerned with her agent only negotiating her a tiny (relatively) pay raise for the later Hunger Games movies.

When she can prove that she's making less than comparable male actors as opposed to her box office take, I'll listen. But not now.

um. Aside from Scarlett Johansson, name me another current female movie star pulling as much box office.

At the time she did American Hustle, it wasn't like she was unknown or something - She had X-Men AND Hunger Games on her resume. Of the male stars, Christian Bale has the same sort of franchise success with Batman while Bradley Cooper has the Hangover series (neither of which I like, for the record. the Batman and the Hangover, though I happen to think that Christian Bale is highly overrated as a person who is able to speak), but I think most people agree, Cooper's best recent ones are the ones with Jennifer Lawrence co-starring. Anyhow, she has TWO massive franchises, her two biggest-name male co-stars have one each. Though, of course, being, what - two decades older than her, they have a longer list of movies. Anyhow, it's two against one, she's as big a star as those two put together and she gets paid less? That's not normal. And she's making a fuss about it while her other female co-star Amy Adams has chosen to remain (relatively) quiet, though she's probably in the same boat.

I mean, that's just one example, it's happening all over. Yes, it's ridiculous to haggle about so much money while so many people have so little. But it's the principle of the thing.

Daekyras
11-17-2015, 05:57 AM
um. Aside from Scarlett Johansson, name me another current female movie star pulling as much box office.



Cobie smolders.

Because she is as much the reason for the financial success of avengers as Scarlett Johnasson.

i.e. very little to do with it.

I don't think you can count franchises in this. For example- Sir Ian Mckellan is not the biggest box office draw of all time. But X-men, The Lord of the rings and The Hobbit beg to differ.

DahLliA
11-17-2015, 06:45 AM
On the one hand I agree with you about treating people equally. Because, well, that way you get the biggest benefit for the most people.

<snip>

Now, if you know that these very basic differences exist, then why ignore them?

I totally agree that it comes down to testosterone-levels(probably not just testosterone, but for simplicity's sake). But there really isn't any fair way to try and balance these things.

For myself I really, really hate the conversation I have every year with my boss regarding salary and stuff like that, because I'm not really the type of person who brags and I usually judge my work much more critically than other people judge it.
Which is why I'm all for a flat raise for everyone if the company does well, and well. nothing for anyone if it does poorly.

But should I also get preferential treatment when it comes to raises?

Do we need to measure everyone's testosterone levels over time to create a baseline and then make sure to give people with lower levels more raises they don't ask for?

Not really a practical solution. And while just separating between men and women might fix things for most people, it would not be fair to everyone since men with low levels exist, and there also exist women with high levels.

So if a flat rate isn't wanted/possible, I think people need to take responsibility for themselves and either man up(pun intended) or accept that over time they'll end up with a lower salary than their more ballsy(sorry. I'll stop now) colleagues.

Davian93
11-17-2015, 08:30 AM
um. Aside from Scarlett Johansson, name me another current female movie star pulling as much box office.

At the time she did American Hustle, it wasn't like she was unknown or something - She had X-Men AND Hunger Games on her resume. Of the male stars, Christian Bale has the same sort of franchise success with Batman while Bradley Cooper has the Hangover series (neither of which I like, for the record. the Batman and the Hangover, though I happen to think that Christian Bale is highly overrated as a person who is able to speak), but I think most people agree, Cooper's best recent ones are the ones with Jennifer Lawrence co-starring. Anyhow, she has TWO massive franchises, her two biggest-name male co-stars have one each. Though, of course, being, what - two decades older than her, they have a longer list of movies. Anyhow, it's two against one, she's as big a star as those two put together and she gets paid less? That's not normal. And she's making a fuss about it while her other female co-star Amy Adams has chosen to remain (relatively) quiet, though she's probably in the same boat.

I mean, that's just one example, it's happening all over. Yes, it's ridiculous to haggle about so much money while so many people have so little. But it's the principle of the thing.

X-Men is an ensemble movie and she's hardly the star of it anyway...I'd say Fassbender and Jackman are higher up on that totem pole at a minimum.

Blockbuster Franchises only really work for that sort of boost when its something like Downey Jr in Iron Man...because you cant make Iron Man without him but you can pretty much replace anyone else (Just ask Terrance Howard).

yks 6nnetu hing
11-17-2015, 09:21 AM
X-Men is an ensemble movie and she's hardly the star of it anyway...I'd say Fassbender and Jackman are higher up on that totem pole at a minimum.

Blockbuster Franchises only really work for that sort of boost when its something like Downey Jr in Iron Man...because you cant make Iron Man without him but you can pretty much replace anyone else (Just ask Terrance Howard).

True, I guess. And even if you're the face of a franchise, that still doesn't guarantee success after the end of the franchise. Kristin Stewart. enough said.

still, I'd rate Jennifer Lawrence as one of the actors/actresses that gets people into the cinemas. More so than Christian Bale - I mean, have you seen the embarrassment that was Equilibrium?

I dunno, maybe she's too young to have been in enough Bad Movies.

Daekyras
11-17-2015, 10:28 AM
True, I guess. And even if you're the face of a franchise, that still doesn't guarantee success after the end of the franchise. Kristin Stewart. enough said.

still, I'd rate Jennifer Lawrence as one of the actors/actresses that gets people into the cinemas. More so than Christian Bale - I mean, have you seen the embarrassment that was Equilibrium?

I dunno, maybe she's too young to have been in enough Bad Movies.

Oh yks, I see you've got dreaded auto-correct syndrome on your phone.

As you can see your phone automatically, for some reason, changed the word "awesomeness" to embarrassment.

Ha, silly phones. Cause that is what you meant? The awesomeness of Equilibrium? Gun kata? Yks? Yks?????

yks 6nnetu hing
11-18-2015, 02:10 AM
Oh yks, I see you've got dreaded auto-correct syndrome on your phone.

As you can see your phone automatically, for some reason, changed the word "awesomeness" to embarrassment.

Ha, silly phones. Cause that is what you meant? The awesomeness of Equilibrium? Gun kata? Yks? Yks?????

it was a bad adaptation of 1984 that tried to be Matrix but was just... not enough plot that wasn't lifted straight out of the book, and even that dumbed down so that the dumbest of the dumb could understand. Coated liberally with blood and gore for no reason other than that people seemed to like that sort of thing in the Matrix. although, Christian Bale is almost as bad as Keanu Reeves when it comes to facial expressions, so there's that. not sure it counts on the "plus" side though...

Daekyras
11-18-2015, 04:06 AM
it was a bad adaptation of 1984 that tried to be Matrix but was just... not enough plot that wasn't lifted straight out of the book, and even that dumbed down so that the dumbest of the dumb could understand. Coated liberally with blood and gore for no reason other than that people seemed to like that sort of thing in the Matrix. although, Christian Bale is almost as bad as Keanu Reeves when it comes to facial expressions, so there's that. not sure it counts on the "plus" side though...

Oh yks, it happened again. I know you just wrote "Yes, the best film ever" and look what it turned it in to...;)

I agree on bale. Find him pretty unwatchable. But he gets into movies I WANT to watch. Have you seen American hustle? He is shocking in that movie.

GonzoTheGreat
11-18-2015, 04:14 AM
Was Christian Bale the creepy (relatively) underpaid actress who approached The Unreasoner, or has this thread been hijacked a bit?

yks 6nnetu hing
11-18-2015, 05:10 AM
Was Christian Bale the creepy (relatively) underpaid actress who approached The Unreasoner, or has this thread been hijacked a bit?

Just a tad.

Creepers are creepy (no matter their gender).

Men and women should be paid equally for the same work.

Christian Bale sucks.

Daekyras
11-18-2015, 06:46 AM
Just a tad.

Creepers are creepy (no matter their gender).

Men and women should be paid equally for the same work.

Christian Bale sucks. Except in equilibrium, the greatest action adventure ever committed to film and almost certainly the pinnacle of movie making achievement

Glad we finally see eye to eye.

NB I may have edited your post just a little.

Davian93
11-18-2015, 07:57 AM
Bale was alright in The Fighter but he's very average otherwise.

GonzoTheGreat
11-18-2015, 08:15 AM
Bale was alright in The Fighter but he's very average otherwise.
Actually, Bela seems very ordinary most of the time, and only when it really counts displays any special abilities.

yks 6nnetu hing
11-18-2015, 08:36 AM
Bale was alright in The Fighter but he's very average otherwise.

glad we agree. do we also agree that Jennifer Lawrence is an above average actress?

I must confess, I haven't seen every movie she's ever acted in, but what I have seen, I've liked. Acting-wise. Leaving the whole franchise thing out of the discussion.

so, Bale - average, Lawrence - above average... and she gets paid less for the same work. not fair.



on a related topic, it's pretty amazing how many mainstream movies fail the Bechtel test:
1. It has to have at least two [named] women in it

2. Who talk to each other

3. About something besides a man

I mean, we've been talking about American Hustle, and part of the movie's sexualization of the female characters is purposefully... um... pointed. we could call it commentary on society.

Daekyras
11-18-2015, 09:08 AM
on a related topic, it's pretty amazing how many mainstream movies fail the Bechtel test:


I mean, we've been talking about American Hustle, and part of the movie's sexualization of the female characters is purposefully... um... pointed. we could call it commentary on society.

Mentioning the bechtel makes me sad the Wham Bam Pow(podcast) finished this week. :(

Nazbaque
11-18-2015, 09:53 AM
Actually, Bela seems very ordinary most of the time, and only when it really counts displays any special abilities.

Gonzo this is the non-wot forum.

GonzoTheGreat
11-18-2015, 10:39 AM
Gonzo this is the non-wot forum.
True, but I misread the name and then decided not to let facts slow me down too much.

Davian93
11-24-2015, 08:34 AM
glad we agree. do we also agree that Jennifer Lawrence is an above average actress?


Definitely...I really like her as an actress. And she doesn't "seem" like a crazy, insane hollywood person in real life either...so kudos to her publicist if she is and we just aren't seeing it and kudos to her if she really is fairly normalish for a hollywood star.

But she's one of the best young actresses today (among the ones getting movie roles at least).

yks 6nnetu hing
11-24-2015, 08:59 AM
Definitely...I really like her as an actress. And she doesn't "seem" like a crazy, insane hollywood person in real life either...so kudos to her publicist if she is and we just aren't seeing it and kudos to her if she really is fairly normalish for a hollywood star.

But she's one of the best young actresses today (among the ones getting movie roles at least).

so we've got an actor that's "meh" and an actress that's really quite good at what she does.

and he gets 9 money while she gets 7 money. this is simply not fair. I mean, if they were the same, acting-wise, then they should both get 8 money (I dunno, maybe the one 7.8 and the other 8.2 depending on their agent's negotiation prowess). But now, the worse actor gets more money and the only other differentiator is their gender.

clearly, balls are worth 1 money each.

Nazbaque
11-24-2015, 10:28 AM
so we've got an actor that's "meh" and an actress that's really quite good at what she does.

and he gets 9 money while she gets 7 money. this is simply not fair. I mean, if they were the same, acting-wise, then they should both get 8 money (I dunno, maybe the one 7.8 and the other 8.2 depending on their agent's negotiation prowess). But now, the worse actor gets more money and the only other differentiator is their gender.

clearly, balls are worth 1 money each.

Yks, you are basically saying that the only reason people go to the theaters or buy the dvds is the quality of the acting. This is rarely the case. I don't really doubt that sex affects how much they get paid, but this line of argument ignores a lot of factors in how much they should get paid.

Daekyras
11-24-2015, 11:05 AM
Yks, you are basically saying that the only reason people go to the theaters or buy the dvds is the quality of the acting. This is rarely the case. I don't really doubt that sex affects how much they get paid, but this line of argument ignores a lot of factors in how much they should get paid.

People don't go to see the new "Jennifer Lawrence" movie. None of them are star vehicles that live off her name.

Lets cross that with, say, Spy. Should we argue that Jason Statham should get the same wage as Melissa McCarthy? He is excellent in the movie and steals every scene he is in. But that is HER movie.

Now, American hustle is a different type of film altogether. Jennifer Lawrence might be better than her male Co-stars but that was THEIR movie. It was a starring role for the two lads. They had Top Billing in every piece of advertising I saw. which was a bad decision and not worth it.

I don't agree with the difference in salaries but I can see the reasoning behind it.

Davian93
11-24-2015, 12:44 PM
Yks, you are basically saying that the only reason people go to the theaters or buy the dvds is the quality of the acting. This is rarely the case. I don't really doubt that sex affects how much they get paid, but this line of argument ignores a lot of factors in how much they should get paid.

I think Gary Oldman and Daniel Day Lewis are phenomenal actors but neither one of them is getting $25 million a picture either....it usually has more to do with types of roles and whatnot.

For something like American Hustle, Lawrence should have gotten the same as her male costars most likely. Basically an ensemble cast and they're all roughly equal when it comes to acting credits.

Brita
11-24-2015, 01:05 PM
The salaries being hidden is a big part of the problem. The fact that Bradley Cooper will now share his salary openly, that will even the playing field. Then negotiations can be more informed, and if a star (male or female) asks for similar pay, then it is simply up to the producers to decide if their star power and acting skill is worth it.

It is the secrecy that covers it all with a slime of dishonour. And this relates to all sectors of the workforce in which salaries are negotiated. It allows for inherent biases and prejudices to flourish unchecked.

yks 6nnetu hing
11-25-2015, 01:50 AM
The salaries being hidden is a big part of the problem. The fact that Bradley Cooper will now share his salary openly, that will even the playing field. Then negotiations can be more informed, and if a star (male or female) asks for similar pay, then it is simply up to the producers to decide if their star power and acting skill is worth it.

It is the secrecy that covers it all with a slime of dishonour. And this relates to all sectors of the workforce in which salaries are negotiated. It allows for inherent biases and prejudices to flourish unchecked.

This! this is exactly what I've been trying to say an d you put it so beautifully!