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fionwe1987
10-27-2015, 11:55 AM
So I made this a separate thread since I think it might deviate into other discussions, and didn't want to put all that in the main Companion thread.

I was looking at the strength list Tor provided today:

http://www.tor.com/2015/10/27/the-wheel-of-time-companion-strength-chart-of-major-channelers/#comment-552096

There's one major mixup, where Nicola is listed as potentially level 5(+8), same as Cadsuane's in her entry.

Nicola's entry, at least the one Amazon shows, says that her potential was 9(+4), and matched by Cadsuane.

We know that this was RJ moving Cadsuane up, but not that he intended to move up Nicola with her. He just didn't update Nicola's entry.

But that made me wonder... was Cadsuane moving up a unique thing? Was RJ, perhaps, thinking of moving up all the wondergirls? Put Cadsuane at level 5, Egwene, Elayne and Aviendha at level 4, Moghedien at level 3, Nynaeve at level 2 with Graendal and Mesaana, and you have a strength list for the upper echelons that matches everything in the books. RJ explicitly said

1) Nynaeve was average Forsaken strength

2) Egwene, Elayne, and Aviendha were a level below Forsaken strength

3) Cadsuane was a level below Egwene's level

These were statements made outside the text in interviews, so maybe they represented how his thinking evolved on this. He may not have updated the notes because the bump up doesn't really affect anything. The day to day interactions of these women would remain exactly the same.

After all, there's a strange gap between Egwene's level and Cadsuane's bumped level. What would be the point of that? Why have all the major female channelers be so much weaker than the men? Nothing in the books changes if they were a few levels higher. Keep them where they are, though, and there's some major contradictions.

Kimon
10-27-2015, 02:54 PM
Why have all the major female channelers be so much weaker than the men?

The books would seem to suggest a major drop from the three top asha'man (Rand, Taim & Logain - those two probably at the same level) to the next echelon. Part of the problem is simply that it is difficult to place them in strata, but the indications are that the only other "asha'man" that was near their strength was the hidden Forsaken - Dashiva/Osan'gar. Presumably the next tier is Flinn, and then Narishma. We don't get much of a hint on Flinn's strength, perhaps everyone just defers to him due to age and skill, but he seems the next strongest, and then Narishma. Narishma however is useful for context as at least as of COT (ch 23), he and Merise seem to be described as being of essentially the same level strength. Merise isn't weak, but she's one step below Moiraine's original level. That might not have been the end-strength for Narishma, indeed the conversation Cadsuane had with Merise about his annoyance at her taking away her pins implies that he is getting stronger. The indication would seem to be that he was beginning to pass her, but likely wouldn't end far past her.

This doesn't really seem an issue of the women being weaker than most of the men, only that most of the women are weaker than the male Forsaken (plus Rand and Logain). How is that a surprise? That doesn't mean that the supergirls are weaker than most of the male channelers. Nor are we devoid of new female characters of Forsaken level other than Nynaeve - Alivia and Talaan being the most obvious. You seem to be making this far more of an issue than it is. I can't help but wonder considering your overt fanboyism for Egwene if this isn't all really about that - your pique that Egwene wasn't stronger.

fionwe1987
10-27-2015, 03:02 PM
I can't help but wonder considering your overt fanboyism for Egwene if this isn't all really about that - your pique that Egwene wasn't stronger.
So let me get this right... You're denying that there's a major discrepancy with Cadsuane's strength, despite the overwhelming evidence for that, and drag Egwene into this, and then imply I'm the one who is obsessed with her? :rolleyes:

Kimon
10-27-2015, 03:45 PM
So let me get this right... You're denying that there's a major discrepancy with Cadsuane's strength, despite the overwhelming evidence for that, and drag Egwene into this, and then imply I'm the one who is obsessed with her? :rolleyes:

I think it's a simple inconsistency born out of a statement made about Elayne's strength from long (books and years) before Cadsuane's appearance, from perhaps even long before the idea of Cadsuane was first developed. This is certainly no more an issue than Taimandred.

Davian93
10-27-2015, 04:35 PM
I would chalk it up to a minor whoopsy by RJ and his research staff.

Nothing worth getting all in a bunch about.

fionwe1987
10-27-2015, 06:26 PM
I think it's a simple inconsistency born out of a statement made about Elayne's strength from long (books and years) before Cadsuane's appearance, from perhaps even long before the idea of Cadsuane was first developed. This is certainly no more an issue than Taimandred.

Except Nicola's entry in the Companion says she has a potential of 9(+4), and it also says her potential equal Cadsuane's...

Specifically, it says:

...before Nynaeve, Egwene and Elayne she would have caused a sensation; her potential, equal to Cadsuane, still occasioned some comment and she was considered quite a find.

So RJ clearly changed his mind recently enough that Nicola's entry wasn't updated. I'm interested in why.

sleepinghour
10-27-2015, 07:10 PM
I'm not putting too much weight into this entry as it wasn't posted by Team Jordan, only a Tor employee who's read the Companion. The Tor post contains statements like, "In Winter’s Heart, it is clearly stated that Alivia can hold more saidar than Lanfear, and Semirhage is clearly below Lanfear in the Forsaken ranks, as well." It should be obvious even to casual readers that how much Alivia held of saidar in WH is completely irrelevant since she was using Nynaeve's angreal at the time.

Graendal’s entry has her at 3(+10), while Talaan’s says her potential is 2(+11) “equal to that of Graendal, Mesaana and Sharina.” So the Tor guy ended up putting Graendal down as a 2(+11). 3(+10) would fit more with RJ's statement that Nynaeve was of average female Forsaken strength, as well as Brandon saying only six women were stronger than her. That is, if you count potential strengths and Lanfear/Cyndane as one.

I don't think we should necessarily assume that all inconsistencies are due to RJ having changed his mind at some point. I don't see it as likely that Nicola was ever intended to be stronger than Egwene and Elayne, as her story was all about being weaker than the Super Girls and resenting that. From the later parts of Nicola's entry:

Nicola refused to believe that her potential was less than that of Egwene and Elayne. She thought that she could truly match—or even surpass—Nynaeve, given the chance, but that the rules were holding her back.

fionwe1987
10-27-2015, 07:43 PM
Oh I totally agree RJ didn't want Nicola to be stronger than the Wondergirls. But what I'm wondering is... did he intend that with Cadsuane?

Kimon
10-27-2015, 08:57 PM
Oh I totally agree RJ didn't want Nicola to be stronger than the Wondergirls. But what I'm wondering is... did he intend that with Cadsuane?

I think that the simplest explanation is that he decided that he wanted to create a new Aes Sedai mentor for Rand as a replacement for Moiraine, and that she likely did not exist as a concept when he wrote that initial comment about Elayne's strength in contrast to the Tower's history, and simply did not remember it. Which wouldn't be that surprising, since the main issue was simply that the supergirls were all really strong, but that only Nynaeve was Forsaken strength. So, he creates Cadsuane, but made her too strong - seemingly initially writing her with the impression that she was either co-equal or just Elayne, Egwene, and Aviendha, but weaker than Nynaeve. Then Maria, or someone, reminded him about that Elayne statement, and he was forced to backtrack.

Still don't think this is particularly consequential. It's a mistake, but Cadsuane really only interacts with Nynaeve - never with any of the other three, so so it never is really an issue other than feel. She is written as if she's the second strongest, after only Nynaeve, which unfortunately doesn't square with what we're told at first about Elayne's vast potential, which would have had to include her as surpassing Cadsuane. It just seems like Cadsuane didn't exist in his mind at the time of that nugget, and it slipped his mind. A curiosity though more than a plot-hole. The Nicola bit seems a far greater inconsistency than Cadsuane's placement. Cadsuane's reads right if placed higher, Nicola makes no sense.

fionwe1987
10-28-2015, 02:15 AM
I think that the simplest explanation is that he decided that he wanted to create a new Aes Sedai mentor for Rand as a replacement for Moiraine, and that she likely did not exist as a concept when he wrote that initial comment about Elayne's strength in contrast to the Tower's history, and simply did not remember it. Which wouldn't be that surprising, since the main issue was simply that the supergirls were all really strong, but that only Nynaeve was Forsaken strength. So, he creates Cadsuane, but made her too strong - seemingly initially writing her with the impression that she was either co-equal or just Elayne, Egwene, and Aviendha, but weaker than Nynaeve. Then Maria, or someone, reminded him about that Elayne statement, and he was forced to backtrack.

Still don't think this is particularly consequential. It's a mistake, but Cadsuane really only interacts with Nynaeve - never with any of the other three, so so it never is really an issue other than feel. She is written as if she's the second strongest, after only Nynaeve, which unfortunately doesn't square with what we're told at first about Elayne's vast potential, which would have had to include her as surpassing Cadsuane. It just seems like Cadsuane didn't exist in his mind at the time of that nugget, and it slipped his mind. A curiosity though more than a plot-hole. The Nicola bit seems a far greater inconsistency than Cadsuane's placement. Cadsuane's reads right if placed higher, Nicola makes no sense.

There was a character named Kadsuane who was supposed to do pretty much what Cads did before the Eye of the World was even published, according to people who've read the notes.

Also, even after she was introduced in aCoS, the glossary of that book says:

Cadsuane Melaidhrin (CAD-soo-ain meh-LIE-drihn): An Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah who has approached legendary status among Aes Sedai while still alive, though in truth most sisters believe she must be years dead by now. Thought to have been born around 705 NE in Ghealdan, which would make her the oldest living Aes Sedai, she was also the strongest in the Power found for a thousand years or more until the advent of Nynaeve, Elayne and Egwene and even they do not far out-step her.

Further, Merana thinks, in that very book:

Once Cadsuane Melaidhrin had been the standard by which every new entry into the novice book was judged. Until Elayne Trakand, none had come to the White Tower in her lifetime who could match that standard, much less surpass it.

So at the time of her introduction, at least, he intended for her to be just a little weaker than Elayne.

GonzoTheGreat
10-28-2015, 04:30 AM
I suspect that RJ only updated those notes when that was useful to him. He kept the most pertinent stuff in his head, so he didn't really need the notes too much for things like the strength of the major channellers. He may have added some things at the end, when he knew someone else was going to have to finish the series, but that wouldn't have been a very thorough process.
So what probably happened is that he had some thoughts on what Cadsuane was going to be like early on in the series, put that in the notes, and when she really started moving around he didn't have to bother with getting her strength in the notes precisely right because he already knew it by heart and didn't have any trouble fitting it in the books. So in the case of Cadsuane, I would definitely take what's in the actual
series over what can be found in the notes.

Terez
10-28-2015, 04:47 AM
There was a character named Kadsuane who was supposed to do pretty much what Cads did before the Eye of the World was even published, according to people who've read the notes.
There wasn't actually any info about what she would do. Just the name, in the brainstorm notes from the very early days, while he was just starting work on TEOTW.

Davian93
10-28-2015, 08:00 AM
Agreed with Gonzo that the books are the only thing that can really be considered 100% canon. The rest is of varying levels of usefulness...especially since RJ died before he could ever clean up the notes and Harriet & Co haven't really changed their content at all.


The pretty common sense explanations already offered make the most sense.

sleepinghour
10-28-2015, 09:27 AM
There was a character named Kadsuane who was supposed to do pretty much what Cads did before the Eye of the World was even published, according to people who've read the notes.

I once browsed a Russian WoT forum with the help of Google Translate, which transliterated Cadsuane's name as Kadsuane Meledrin, Mat's as Matt Coughton, and Gitara Moroso as Gaytara Drizzle. So hearing that was the original spelling of Cadsuane's name was kind of funny to me.

The Unreasoner
10-28-2015, 06:50 PM
There wasn't actually any info about what she would do. Just the name, in the brainstorm notes from the very early days, while he was just starting work on TEOTW.
RJ did say that Cadsuane's story arc was planned well in advance, though. Maybe that's what what fionwe meant.

Terez
10-28-2015, 07:50 PM
Maybe, but that's not what he said. So I clarified.

fionwe1987
10-30-2015, 10:46 AM
While I was aware of RJ's statements that she was planned, I did mistakenly conflate that with what Wert said in his blog post about "Kadsuane". So thanks for the clarification Terez.

Sukoto
10-31-2015, 01:11 AM
OK. The companion notes are confusing me now. Here's the impression of female strengths I get from the books themselves:

Elayne, Egwene and Aviendha are all around the same potential. Cadsuane and Nicola are just below them.

The strongest women are roughly in the following order: Alivia, Lanfear, Sharina, Talaan, Cyndane, Graendal, Semhirage, Nynaeve, Moghedien, Mesaana

In tEotW, Moiraine compares Egwene's and Nynaeve's potentials to candle flame and bonfire respectively. Also, in tDR Nynaeve says she might be able to hold, alone, about half the amount of Power as a circle of several Aes Sedai using Vora's sa'angrael. WTF? I don't know how much each level jumps in shear power, but it's got to be pretty significant. Lanfear could be twice as strong as Moghedien, for example.

fionwe1987
10-31-2015, 01:55 AM
In tEotW, Moiraine compares Egwene's and Nynaeve's potentials to candle flame and bonfire respectively.
There is some definite hyperbole there. In aCoS, Nynaeve isn't even able to shield Elayne when Elayne was holding the source, indicating that there's no super-wide gulf between their levels.

Also, in tDR Nynaeve says she might be able to hold, alone, about half the amount of Power as a circle of several Aes Sedai using Vora's sa'angrael. WTF?
You're reading that a different way. I think all she's saying is that even holding half that much Power would drive her insane.

SomeOneElse
10-31-2015, 02:27 AM
in tDR Nynaeve says she might be able to hold, alone, about half the amount of Power as a circle of several Aes Sedai using Vora's sa'angrael. WTF?

That time she still probably had little idea about the OP-related things.

Terez
10-31-2015, 03:03 AM
Nynaeve was delusional. This is well-documented. She has conversations with herself where she builds up her rationalizations against truths she can't accept.

The line in question was in Egwene's POV.

Nynaeve said, "If we stop them – if we could stop them – he'll die. I do not think I could handle half that much of the Power." She paused as if she had just heard her own words – that she could channel half of what ten full Aes Sedai did with a sa'angreal – and her voice grew even fainter. "Light help me, I want to."
Nynaeve actually said she didn't think she could handle half that much. How much less, we have no idea, and Nynaeve (RJ) probably had no idea either.

greatwolf
10-31-2015, 04:04 AM
In tEotW, Moiraine compares Egwene's and Nynaeve's potentials to candle flame and bonfire respectively. Also, in tDR Nynaeve says she might be able to hold, alone, about half the amount of Power as a circle of several Aes Sedai using Vora's sa'angrael. WTF? I don't know how much each level jumps in shear power, but it's got to be pretty significant. Lanfear could be twice as strong as Moghedien, for example.


I don't think they needed that much of the power for healing. Rather they needed the increased precision that having the Saangreal would provide. So the amount of saidin actually in use was likely nowhere near what the circle or even just Suian with a Saangreal could draw. I think its a scene meant to show us more of nynaeve. As of WH, she couldn't even tell how strong Alivia was on her own.

fionwe1987
10-31-2015, 10:15 AM
I don't think they needed that much of the power for healing. Rather they needed the increased precision that having the Saangreal would provide. So the amount of saidin actually in use was likely nowhere near what the circle or even just Suian with a Saangreal could draw. I think its a scene meant to show us more of nynaeve. As of WH, she couldn't even tell how strong Alivia was on her own.

Using a circle adds precision. Using a sa'angreal does not.

GonzoTheGreat
10-31-2015, 10:31 AM
Using a circle adds precision. Using a sa'angreal does not.
You know that. Do the AS know it, though?

I think that the sa'angreal was to supply whatever power was needed (apparently not all it could deliver) and the circle was there to provide precision. Siuan led the circle to prevent Black (or Green, or Red) Ajah shenanigans.

greatwolf
10-31-2015, 11:06 AM
Using a circle adds precision. Using a sa'angreal does not.

Quote, quote quote. Do you expect me to believe it because you said it? :p

fionwe1987
10-31-2015, 11:06 AM
You know that. Do the AS know it, though?
They have never indicated that they think sa'angreal increase precision. Whenever they have talked of angreal, they only talk of the increased strength. With circles, however, they talk about increased precision. Samitsu, for instance, says she can regulate the Healing weave to a level that another woman would need a circle for, precisely targeting the brunt of the Healing towards particular injuries.

Early on, at least, the Wongergirls seem unaware of these advantages.

I think that the sa'angreal was to supply whatever power was needed (apparently not all it could deliver) and the circle was there to provide precision. Siuan led the circle to prevent Black (or Green, or Red) Ajah shenanigans.
I don't know if that was the reason, or she simply chose herself because she was skilled at the task. After all, we are led to believe the women she chose were those she trusted, and indeed, they all became members of the Rebellion once she was deposed.

GonzoTheGreat
10-31-2015, 11:18 AM
Apart from Alanna, who bonded a Dragon instead, since she hadn't had the chance to do that to Mat.

"I will meld the flows," the Amyrlin said. "Be careful. The Power needed to break the bond with the dagger and Heal its damage is very close to what could kill him. I will focus. Attend." She held the wand straight out in front of her in both hands, above Mat's face. Still unconscious, he shook his head and tightened a fist on the dagger's hilt, muttering something that sounded like a denial.What Siuan says here about the actual power level used suggests that they did indeed need quite a bit of it, and that it had to be very precisely balanced.

fionwe1987
10-31-2015, 12:16 PM
Apart from Alanna, who bonded a Dragon instead, since she hadn't had the chance to do that to Mat.
Her Warder wasn't dead at this point. I'm not sure she'd have done what she did without that emotional turmoil.

What Siuan says here about the actual power level used suggests that they did indeed need quite a bit of it, and that it had to be very precisely balanced.
True. And probably why she trusted no one but herself with it.

The Unreasoner
11-01-2015, 08:29 PM
Samitsu, for instance, says she can regulate the Healing weave to a level that another woman would need a circle for, precisely targeting the brunt of the Healing towards particular injuries.
You guys really need to start quoting if you're going to make ridiculous claims.
By herself, she could Heal almost as well as a linked circle. Most sisters could not regulate the weave to any degree at all; most did not even try to learn. She had been able to from the start. Oh, she could not Heal one particular thing and leave everything else as it was, the way Damer could; what she did would affect everything from the stab wounds to the stuffed nose Dobraine was also suffering from.

Clearly not what fionwe described, even clearer if you read further. It is paced oddly, I'll grant.

And fwiw, Mat's Healing is sort of a special case. You pull arrows out, then Heal; arrows don't just fall out. This is more like a barbed arrow in the psyche, and the vast amounts of Power probably were used to remove it.

fionwe1987
11-01-2015, 09:41 PM
You guys really need to start quoting if you're going to make ridiculous claims.
This would be a really cutting statement, except you didn't quote the next part:

“But she could wash away the worst injuries as if they had never been, or Heal so whoever she Healed appeared to have spent days recovering on her own, or anything in between. Each took no less of her strength, but they did require less from the patient. The smaller the amount of change in the body, the smaller the amount of the body’s strength it drained. Only, except for the gash in his scalp, Dobraine’s wounds were all serious, four deep punctures in his lungs, two of them gashing the heart as well. The strongest Healing would kill him before his wounds finished closing, while the weakest would revive him long enough to drown in his own blood. She had to choose somewhere in the middle and hope that she was right.”

By regulating the weave, she's able to make it so the heart stuff is Healed, but his lung injuries aren't perfectly Healed:

He lived. By a hair, and so weak he might yet die, but it would not be those stabs that killed him, except indirectly. Even through the drying blood that matted his hair, shaven away from his forehead, she could see the puckered pink line of a fresh, tender scar across his scalp. He would have the same beneath his coat, and he might be troubled by shortness of breath when he exerted himself, if he pulled through, yet for the moment, he did live, and that was all that mattered.

As she says, the weakest Healing would still leave his heart gashes intact enough that he would be drowning in his own blood. She did more than that, so the heart wounds clearly closed. But she didn't Heal him enough that his lung injuries were fully gone "as if they had never been". She had to find a level of Healing that made sure his worst injuries were repaired enough that he lived, yet also the other injuries did not kill him shortly thereafter. The brunt of the Healing she chose worked on the heart, and the lungs were healed enough to let him to live, even if they may end up not being at 100% function.

The Unreasoner
11-02-2015, 01:55 AM
But she clearly says she can't target, only regulate intensity. Nowhere does it say a circle allows her to do either. So what you (and greatwolf) are claiming is ridiculous.

fionwe1987
11-02-2015, 07:48 AM
But she clearly says she can't target, only regulate intensity. Nowhere does it say a circle allows her to do either. So what you (and greatwolf) are claiming is ridiculous.

She clearly says she can't pick one and leave all the others untouched. I never claimed otherwise. I said she is capable of "targeting the brunt of the Healing towards particular injuries., because "she can regulate the Healing weave".

The reason Samitsu brings up Damer's abilities is because what she can do is somewhere between normal Healing most Aes Sedai do, and what he can. She can use Healing weaves of various strengths, however, which lets her completely Heal some wounds, while others get Healed less effectively, meaning the patient uses less of their strength, and actually survives. That is targeting, by a mechanism very different than Damer and Nynaeve.

The Unreasoner
11-02-2015, 03:11 PM
I think you're reading things that aren't there. It seems to be a modulation of how much of the Healing would be essentially the body healing on its own. That's why he'll still have scars and respiratory problems.

In any case, it does not seem that a circle or an angreal spontaneously grants a channeler the ability to regulate intensity. And frankly, while I doubt an angreal increases dexterity or precision, I wouldn't be surprised if a circle hindered both. You can sense the emotions of others in the circle, and that could get distracting.

fionwe1987
11-02-2015, 04:22 PM
I think you're reading things that aren't there. It seems to be a modulation of how much of the Healing would be essentially the body healing on its own. That's why he'll still have scars and respiratory problems.
Then why won't he continue to have heart issues?

In any case, it does not seem that a circle or an angreal spontaneously grants a channeler the ability to regulate intensity. And frankly, while I doubt an angreal increases dexterity or precision, I wouldn't be surprised if a circle hindered both. You can sense the emotions of others in the circle, and that could get distracting.
A circle definitely increases precision, and Samitsu clearly implies a circle allows you to regulate weaves if you don't have that level of skill that she does. the Companion, incidentally, puts Chesmal and Suana Dragand at this level too.

Kimon
11-02-2015, 04:36 PM
Then why won't he continue to have heart issues?



The passage makes clear that his lungs were more seriously wounded to begin with than his heart:

Dobraine’s wounds were all serious, four deep punctures in his lungs, two of them gashing the heart as well. The strongest Healing would kill him before his wounds finished closing, while the weakest would revive him long enough to drown in his own blood. She had to choose somewhere in the middle and hope that she was right.

She healed everything to the same degree, she just picked how far to go. That resulted in some wounds, the less serious ones, fully healed, and the most serious, mostly healed - hence the different results for his heart, which had two punctures wounds that needed healing, compared to his lungs, which had four. That's still more finesse than most sisters, but far less than Damer, who could have completely ignored some wounds and only target the critical ones. She can't do that.

greatwolf
11-02-2015, 04:57 PM
The passage makes clear that his lungs were more seriously wounded to begin with than his heart:



She healed everything to the same degree, she just picked how far to go. That resulted in some wounds, the less serious ones, fully healed, and the most serious, mostly healed - hence the different results for his heart, which had two punctures wounds that needed healing, compared to his lungs, which had four. That's still more finesse than most sisters, but far less than Damer, who could have completely ignored some wounds and only target the critical ones. She can't do that.

Its the way you interpret it. In medicine, some things are systemic and generalized, while others are localized. So the AS healing is pretty generalized but the new healing is much more localized and affects only what the channeler wants it to. Agree with you on the rest though. But increased strength and precision also tells us why nynaeve is able to do so much that other AS can't.

fionwe1987
11-02-2015, 05:07 PM
She healed everything to the same degree, she just picked how far to go. That resulted in some wounds, the less serious ones, fully healed, and the most serious, mostly healed - hence the different results for his heart, which had two punctures wounds that needed healing, compared to his lungs, which had four. That's still more finesse than most sisters, but far less than Damer, who could have completely ignored some wounds and only target the critical ones. She can't do that.
But... this is exactly what I said. By regulating her weave's strength, she was able to target some injuries for full Healing, while leaving more serious ones partially Healed.

It is like chemo vs. smart drugs. The smart drugs specifically kill cancer cells, leaving everything else intact. Even the best chemo can kill all dividing cells, but disproportionately targets cancer cells because they divide more. Definitely less precise targeting, but better than poisoning a cancer patient to death to kill the cancer.

Kimon
11-02-2015, 05:08 PM
But increased strength and precision also tells us why nynaeve is able to do so much that other AS can't.

It might be simpler than that. Conventional healing used a combination of three weaves - Spirit, Wind, & Water. Damer and Nynaeve used all 5. I don't think it necessarily has anything to do with strength. Probably dexterity. But some of it was just method.

Kimon
11-02-2015, 05:14 PM
But... this is exactly what I said. By regulating her weave's strength, she was able to target some injuries for full Healing, while leaving more serious ones partially Healed.


I don't think so. The passage implies that everything was to the same degree - so the scalp gash, the lungs, the heart, all say 75% healed. I will admit however that I shouldn't have said "fully healed". None were. That's why even his scalp wasn't fully healed.

fionwe1987
11-02-2015, 05:32 PM
I don't think so. The passage implies that everything was to the same degree - so the scalp gash, the lungs, the heart, all say 75% healed. I will admit however that I shouldn't have said "fully healed". None were. That's why even his scalp wasn't fully healed.

I don't think so. She says that the weakest Healing would revive him long enough to drown in his own blood, meaning he'd leak blood into his lungs, which would have to function to some extent for him to drown in it. She chose a level where the lungs were Healed partially, but the heart was fully Healed, or he'd still have leaks.

Incidentally, his scalp was fully Healed:

Even through the drying blood that matted his hair, shaven away from his forehead, she could see the puckered pink line of a fresh, tender scar across his scalp.

The battlefield Healing leaves scars always.

It seems pretty obvious to me that if you have a bunch of weaves with different levels of seriousness, and you Heal only to a particular level, you're basically choosing where the body's energy is being concentrated.

Kimon
11-02-2015, 05:59 PM
Even through the drying blood that matted his hair, shaven away from his forehead, she could see the puckered pink line of a fresh, tender scar across his scalp.

The quote reads more like mostly healed than fully, but you're ignoring the main problem. If she can do what you are suggesting, then there is no real difference between what she can do and what Damer can - something which she explicitly says is not so. She can't heal the scalp 100%, heart 95%, and lungs 80%. They were all healed to the same level - the level which gave him the best chance of just barely surviving.

fionwe1987
11-02-2015, 06:05 PM
The quote reads more like mostly healed than fully, but you're ignoring the main problem. If she can do what you are suggesting, then there is no real difference between what she can do and what Damer can - something which she explicitly says is not so. She can't heal the scalp 100%, heart 95%, and lungs 80%. They were all healed to the same level - the level which gave him the best chance of just barely surviving.

Uhh... Damer (and Nynaeve) can Heal the Heart 100%, and leave the scalp bleeding and the lungs still punctured. Which is why what he does is very distinct from what Samitsu does.

Kimon
11-02-2015, 06:09 PM
Uhh... Damer (and Nynaeve) can Heal the Heart 100%, and leave the scalp bleeding and the lungs still punctured. Which is why what he does is very distinct from what Samitsu does.

That's still effectively the same thing. She has to heal everything, and the fact that she mentions how much makes clear that she was choosing how far to take everything. If she could take each to a different level, that would be the same as what Damer does.

fionwe1987
11-02-2015, 08:44 PM
That's still effectively the same thing.
It most certainly is not.

She has to heal everything, and the fact that she mentions how much makes clear that she was choosing how far to take everything. If she could take each to a different level, that would be the same as what Damer does.
I think you're misunderstanding me completely. It isn't that she choses different levels of Healing for each wound. Instead, because each wound starts with a different level of seriousness, when she regulates her weave, they all end up at different levels of improvement. Here, for instance, she chose a level of Healing that closed the scalp wound fully, and Healed the heart laceration, but the more severe lung injuries were Healed, but not so well that there won't be some long term damage.

Let's say instead that Dobraine had a scrape in his knee, a small shallow cut in his palm, and a deep stab wound in his chest that pierced his heart. Since Samitsu can control the strength of her Healing, she could, theoretically, have used a strength that fully healed the bruise and the little cut, but barely did anything for the stab damage to the heart. Its not like she could leave that heart wound untouched like Damer could. But by regulating the strength of her weave she can still target more than Damer can.

Kimon
11-02-2015, 09:37 PM
It most certainly is not.



Isn't it? If she can heal different areas simultaneously at different levels there is no real difference between healing one wound fully and another partially compared to one fully and another not at all. Those would seem to be essentially demonstrations of the same skill - one which she, in her own words, claimed to be incapable of. I'm not misunderstanding your position, I just think you're wrong.

Unfortunately the one person who was likely able to adjudicate this disagreement is no longer around to be asked. As it stands, all that is left is the text, which does not seem to allow for your interpretation.

fionwe1987
11-02-2015, 10:02 PM
I'm not misunderstanding your position

You most certainly are, though. Are you seriously telling me that if she choses to use weaker Healing, a more severe wound will get Healed as well as a less severe one? That makes absolutely no sense.

Kimon
11-02-2015, 10:34 PM
You most certainly are, though. Are you seriously telling me that if she choses to use weaker Healing, a more severe wound will get Healed as well as a less severe one? That makes absolutely no sense.

Just look at what she said...


“But she could wash away the worst injuries as if they had never been, or Heal so whoever she Healed appeared to have spent days recovering on her own, or anything in between. Each took no less of her strength, but they did require less from the patient. The smaller the amount of change in the body, the smaller the amount of the body’s strength it drained. Only, except for the gash in his scalp, Dobraine’s wounds were all serious, four deep punctures in his lungs, two of them gashing the heart as well. The strongest Healing would kill him before his wounds finished closing, while the weakest would revive him long enough to drown in his own blood. She had to choose somewhere in the middle and hope that she was right.”

The wounds were at various levels, but healing him completely would kill him from the shock. Too little and the wounds wouldn't close enough, and again he'd die. Think of it this way - heal him 80-100% = dead from shock. heal him 0-60% = dead from the wounds not closing. So, she healed everything to somewhere in the middle. Probably around 70-75%. But that was for everything. That left the minor wound on his scalp seeming close to gone, since it wasn't very bad to begin with. Hence just pink and scarred, since that's about what 75% healed would look like. That 75% would have left him with those long-term breathing problems in his much more seriously wounded lungs however. Had Damer been there he likely would have fared better, but had they waited for Damer, he would have bled out. She did the best she could. Better than any sister not trained in the new Healing (with all 5 powers) by Nynaeve, but not as good as Damer could have done, as he could have just healed his lungs and heart and ignored everything else.

As she herself says, she has to heal everything.

Oh, she could not Heal one particular thing and leave everything else as it was, the way Damer could; what she did would affect everything from the stab wounds to the stuffed nose Dobraine was also suffering from.

She is very skilled at the old style Healing, but it still is that old method. The 3-thread method simply handcuffs her, and makes it impossible to do what Damer and Nynaeve are able to do with 5-threads.

fionwe1987
11-02-2015, 10:43 PM
You're quoting back what I already quoted. Once again:

1) I never said she could Heal one injury and leave the others untouched.

2) All she can do is change how strongly her Healing affects the person.

3)Because of (2), where wounds end up will depend on their severity. To use your numbers, if she works to heal the worst wound (lungs) to 75%, that strength will Heal other lighter wounds like the scalp completely (as it did).

4) (3) is basic logic, and I fail to see why you keep denying it. If you put the exact same amount of strength to throw two things, the heavier thing will travel less far. If you use Healing weaves of the same strength on two wounds, the worse wound will be less well Healed than the smaller wound.

Kimon
11-02-2015, 11:07 PM
You're quoting back what I already quoted. Once again:


Yes, but not without reason, though at this point we seem to simply be talking in circles on an already pretty inane topic...

1) I never said she could Heal one injury and leave the others untouched.

Yes you are. You're saying that she can heal two things to two different levels. Which is the same as healing one thing completely, and another not at all. If she can heal one wound 100% and another 50%, she could heal one 100% and another 0%. She heals everything to the same degree.

2) All she can do is change how strongly her Healing affects the person.

Exactly. She can heal everything 100%, or 75%, 50%, or any other level. Everything...

3)Because of (2), where wounds end up will depend on their severity. To use your numbers, if she works to heal the worst wound (lungs) to 75%, that strength will Heal other lighter wounds like the scalp completely (as it did).

4) (3) is basic logic, and I fail to see why you keep denying it. If you put the exact same amount of strength to throw two things, the heavier thing will travel less far. If you use Healing weaves of the same strength on two wounds, the worse wound will be less well Healed than the smaller wound.

Mostly healing a minor cut and mostly healing a couple of deep gashes in the lungs and heart will leave the minor cut looking pretty close to fully healed, but that doesn't mean that it was healed 100%, the heart 90%, and the lungs 80%. They were all healed the same degree, leaving the scalp wound slightly red because it too would have to finish healing on its own. Had she healed it 100% there would have been no sign of the wound - no redness, no scar, just new skin.

fionwe1987
11-02-2015, 11:43 PM
Yes you are. You're saying that she can heal two things to two different levels. Which is the same as healing one thing completely, and another not at all. If she can heal one wound 100% and another 50%, she could heal one 100% and another 0%. She heals everything to the same degree.
This is just getting insane. Nowhere did I say she can leave one wound untouched. Not once.

Exactly. She can heal everything 100%, or 75%, 50%, or any other level. Everything...
No, or there couldn't possibly be any lung issues (and only those) in Dobraine.

Mostly healing a minor cut and mostly healing a couple of deep gashes in the lungs and heart will leave the minor cut looking pretty close to fully healed, but that doesn't mean that it was healed 100%, the heart 90%, and the lungs 80%. They were all healed the same degree, leaving the scalp wound slightly red because it too would have to finish healing on its own. Had she healed it 100% there would have been no sign of the wound - no redness, no scar, just new skin.
No. Old style Healing leaves scars. It takes special skill with Five Power Healing to remove existing scars, and we see even Nynaeve leave scars before she invented her way of Healing that could target one ailment to the exclusion of all else.

A pink new looking scar is a sign of recent Healing. Not of partial Healing.

Beyond this, I fail to see the point of discussing this. Your position seems so wrong to me that I'm unable to describe it in anything but insulting terms, so I'll leave it at this.

ETA: It seems Nynaeve didn't leave a scar, though she used all Five Powers, for what that's worth.

ETA 2: Scars could be removed completely using the old style, according to the Companion. I'll write more on this once I've read all the Healing releated entries.

GonzoTheGreat
11-03-2015, 03:45 AM
The quote reads more like mostly healed than fully, but you're ignoring the main problem. If she can do what you are suggesting, then there is no real difference between what she can do and what Damer can - something which she explicitly says is not so. She can't heal the scalp 100%, heart 95%, and lungs 80%. They were all healed to the same level - the level which gave him the best chance of just barely surviving.
Depends on where the wounds start out, wouldn't it?

Suppose that the scalp started out at 60%, the heart at 55% and the lungs at 40%. Then, if she adds 40% to all with her Healing, the result will be precisely what you describe.
What she can't do is Heal the heart and lungs 45% (thus bringing them to 100% and 85% respectively) while leaving the scalp at 60% to just be dealt with by someone applying a bandage. Damer (and, presumably, Nynaeve) could do that, or could pick some other combination that would seem best for the circumstances.

Kimon
11-03-2015, 06:42 AM
Depends on where the wounds start out, wouldn't it?

Suppose that the scalp started out at 60%, the heart at 55% and the lungs at 40%. Then, if she adds 40% to all with her Healing, the result will be precisely what you describe.
What she can't do is Heal the heart and lungs 45% (thus bringing them to 100% and 85% respectively) while leaving the scalp at 60% to just be dealt with by someone applying a bandage. Damer (and, presumably, Nynaeve) could do that, or could pick some other combination that would seem best for the circumstances.

I agree, but this isn't the nuance that fionwe is arguing. This, for instance, is why his heart is in better shape than his lungs at the end of the healing.

fionwe1987
11-03-2015, 09:40 AM
I agree, but this isn't the nuance that fionwe is arguing. This, for instance, is why his heart is in better shape than his lungs at the end of the healing.

This is precisely what I am arguing. To quote:

Because of (2), where wounds end up will depend on their severity. To use your numbers, if she works to heal the worst wound (lungs) to 75%, that strength will Heal other lighter wounds like the scalp completely (as it did).


Are you seriously telling me that if she choses to use weaker Healing, a more severe wound will get Healed as well as a less severe one? That makes absolutely no sense.

It isn't that she choses different levels of Healing for each wound. Instead, because each wound starts with a different level of seriousness, when she regulates her weave, they all end up at different levels of improvement.

Weiramon
11-03-2015, 11:35 AM
Bah, you pups are missing the point altogether.








The important thing is she healed a Lord.

Kimon
11-03-2015, 03:32 PM
This is precisely what I am arguing. To quote:

No it's not. I'm not sure what's more alarming, that you fail to recognize that what Gonzo said is exactly what I've been arguing, or that you still fail to see that what you are suggesting would negate the difference between what she and Damer does. Either way, there is no point in continuing this discussion.

fionwe1987
11-03-2015, 03:50 PM
No it's not. I'm not sure what's more alarming, that you fail to recognize that what Gonzo said is exactly what I've been arguing, or that you still fail to see that what you are suggesting would negate the difference between what she and Damer does. Either way, there is no point in continuing this discussion.

Gonzo:

Depends on where the wounds start out, wouldn't it?

Me:

where wounds end up will depend on their severity.

Gonzo:

Suppose that the scalp started out at 60%, the heart at 55% and the lungs at 40%. Then, if she adds 40% to all with her Healing, the result will be precisely what you describe.

What you described:

She can't heal the scalp 100%, heart 95%, and lungs 80%.

What I said:

To use your numbers, if she works to heal the worst wound (lungs) to 75%, that strength will Heal other lighter wounds like the scalp completely (as it did).

The rest I leave to (desperately hoped for) reading comprehension.

The Unreasoner
11-03-2015, 04:32 PM
Oh for fuck's sake, this is getting ridiculous.

Some quotes I'd appreciate:

One that shows Samitsu's ability is in any way more precise than Nynaeve's.

One that shows circles improve dexterity (iow, not the one I'm pretty sure you're misreading. I think it's like Androl and gateways: By himself he can make gateways as well as a circle of channelers of the same strength. But he has also found ways to adapt the weave for other purposes. One is strength of Talent, the other is more a question of imagination and practice.)

One that shows that old healing always leaves scars (even for fresh wounds). Iirc, when Alanna Healed Perrin, she said that it would leave a scar but only because it was old.

fionwe1987
11-03-2015, 04:49 PM
Oh for fuck's sake, this is getting ridiculous.
I don't think anyone will disagree with that.

Some quotes I'd appreciate:

One that shows Samitsu's ability is in any way more precise than Nynaeve's.
Why would there be a quote to this effect? It is quite untrue.

One that shows circles improve dexterity (iow, not the one I'm pretty sure you're misreading. I think it's like Androl and gateways: By himself he can make gateways as well as a circle of channelers of the same strength. But he has also found ways to adapt the weave for other purposes. One is strength of Talent, the other is more a question of imagination and practice.)
I said precision, not dexterity. And here's a quote for that, from the Companion:

linking. The ability of channelers to combine their flows of the One Power. While the combined flow was not as great as the sum total of the individual flows, it was directed by the person who led the link and could be used much more precisely and to far greater effect than the individual flows could be.


One that shows that old healing always leaves scars (even for fresh wounds). Iirc, when Alanna Healed Perrin, she said that it would leave a scar but only because it was old.
I already stated that I was wrong on that. Sheriam, who has no great skill with Healing, says that she was surprised Nynaeve had any scars after she Healed the thorns in her wrists, so it seems Healing can indeed leave no scars.

For what its worth, the Companion says there were two levels of Healing:

In one, everything was Healed completely and utterly. If a cut was Healed, not even a scar was left behind. The injury or illness might as well never have been.

The second type of Healing produced what appeared to be a month or more of healing. That is, once it was done, it seemed that the wound or illness had had a month or two of recovery/healing time. This method left scars, though much less than natural healing would have.

Combine this with Samitsu's quote, and it seems what she can do is find some spot in the middle of these two by regulating her weaves.

The Unreasoner
11-03-2015, 05:15 PM
But by regulating the strength of her weave she can still target more than Damer can.
Can you clarify this then?

And I haven't read the Companion yet.

fionwe1987
11-03-2015, 05:28 PM
Can you clarify this then?

And I haven't read the Companion yet.

Huh... not sure wtf I meant there, as I pretty much contradicted that with the previous sentence (which is what I believe anyway). I'm pretty sure what I meant to say is that she can target more than an Aes Sedai who can't regulate her weaves at all.

In terms of targeting:

Damer/Nynaeve>Samitsu>Random Aes Sedai with moderate Healing ability.

GonzoTheGreat
11-04-2015, 04:49 AM
Oh for fuck's sake, this is getting ridiculous.
I don't think anyone will disagree with that.Actually, I do disagree with it. I think it already was somewhat ridiculous; the way we were talking past each other. Fun, of course, or I would've stopped, but also ridiculous.

One that shows Samitsu's ability is in any way more precise than Nynaeve's.
Here you are:
Cadsuane bent to pat Samitsu's shoulder. "You are the best living, perhaps the best ever," she said quietly. "No one has the Healing to compare with you."It is well known that AS can't lie, so what Cadsuane Sedai said here must be the truth.

As an aside: who was better, Semirhage or Nynaeve? I know that the latter's bedside manners were preferable for the patients, but I am not sure that also translated into being a better healer.

Delirium
11-04-2015, 05:26 AM
But seems like the last 40 posts or so have veered off the original topic around Cadsuane's strength pretty sharply

GonzoTheGreat
11-04-2015, 07:50 AM
True, but that's Theoryland. We basically agreed that Cadsuane's strength could most accurately be judged from the references in the books, that what is in the notes was most likely older and less accurate, and no one felt like continuing that debate on which they agreed with all others. So we wandered into other topics. Where, it turned out, people also agreed, but that didn't really stop them from debating until it became a bit embarrassing.

fionwe1987
11-04-2015, 09:01 AM
As an aside: who was better, Semirhage or Nynaeve? I know that the latter's bedside manners were preferable for the patients, but I am not sure that also translated into being a better healer.
Actually, we know Sumeko called some of Nynaeve's Healing weaves clumsy, and when Nynaeve first saw her Heal, she seemed to indicate that even for her, Sumeko's skill was impressive.

Now, whether this is just a matter of age based experience, ie. a 400 year old woman vs. a 26 year old, or something else, I don't know. Sumeko could just be arrogant like many Yellows are, but I don't think Nynaeve would have cared if she didn't know it to be true.

Now, where Sumeko stood with respect to Semirhage, we don't know.