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View Full Version : I'm ashamed to admit that Ben Carson and I share the same alma mater...


Kimon
11-06-2015, 10:34 PM
Hopefully this is just a phase, like their brief flirtation with Herman Cain during the last cycle, but it is terrifying that Carson has even risen to become the current front runner in the Republican field.

He is not merely boring. He is not merely a compulsive liar (most recently seen with his West Point claims walk back). He is not merely a proponent of awful and dangerous ideas - that is every Republican.

He is dangerously incompetent.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/11/05/ben-carson-believes-joseph-built-egypts-pyramids-to-store-grain-and-it-just-may-get-him-some-votes/

On Wednesday, a 17-year-old video surfaced of Ben Carson claiming that the Old Testament figure Joseph built the Egyptian pyramids to store food.

“My own personal theory is that Joseph built the pyramids to store grain,” Carson said in a 1998 commencement speech at Andrews University, unearthed by BuzzFeed. “Now all the archaeologists think that they were made for the pharaohs’ graves. But, you know, it would have to be something awfully big — when you stop and think about it, and I don’t think it’d just disappear over the course of time — to store that much grain.”

And just in case there was any doubt, that perhaps this was just a mere youthful and temporary insanity. No.

Carson confirmed to CBS Wednesday night that he still believes Joseph built the pyramids as granaries

Perhaps this shouldn't be a surprise. After all, we've long known that he denies evolution, but the pyramids? This seems an even more disturbing and egregious example of cognitive dissonance. Trump at least seems calculating and clever in his demagoguery. He is a bombastic schmuck, but at least he does not seem, like Carson, a candidate drawn from the cast of Ancient Aliens.

Frenzy
11-06-2015, 10:48 PM
The republican candidates are really starting to freak me out. They all have huge fatal flaws that would be downright scary in the Oval Office.

Nazbaque
11-07-2015, 12:02 AM
So basically Carson just played sid meier's civilization. In the earlier games building the Pyramids wonder gave you a free granary in all your other cities. Wouldn't really want a ruler who has trouble with the difference between a computer game and reality. Even if the game in question is bloody good.

GonzoTheGreat
11-07-2015, 03:15 AM
Hopefully this is just a phase, like their brief flirtation with Herman Cain during the last cycle, but it is terrifying that Carson has even risen to become the current front runner in the Republican field.
With the Republicans, "front runner" doesn't seem the right term. They remind me a lot more of the Ministry of Silly Walks than of Usain Bolt.

And yes, the pyramid thing is a bit wacky. But at least he doesn't think they were build by Noah, using dinosaurs for the heavy work, as some Creationists claim. So, as American right wingers go, he is a moderate.

Kimon
11-07-2015, 10:10 AM
And yes, the pyramid thing is a bit wacky. But at least he doesn't think they were build by Noah, using dinosaurs for the heavy work, as some Creationists claim. So, as American right wingers go, he is a moderate.

This pyramid-granary nonsense apparently was not so much a personal theory cooked up independently by Carson, as plagiarized from earlier kooks...

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34741010

So where does this granary theory come from?
In the Old Testament, Joseph is sold into slavery in Egypt by his brothers, where he later interprets a pharaoh's dreams and helps the Egyptians survive a seven-year famine - by storing grain. There is no mention of pyramids in the Bible's version of the story but in the Middle Ages people started to write them into the story.

"If you go to St Mark's cathedral in Venice, there's a medieval depiction showing people using the three great pyramids of Giza as granaries in Joseph's story," says John Darnell, a professor of Egyptology at Yale University.
"If you didn't have access to the structures, the idea had some currency."

The belief was also popularised by Saint Gregory of Tours, a sixth century Frankish bishop, who wrote: "They are wide at the base and narrow at the top in order that the wheat might be cast into them through a tiny opening, and these granaries are to be seen to the present day."

I've been to St Mark's, and while I don't recall these pyramid scenes, I'll be back there this June, so I'll have to remember to look for them next time.

Never mind the fact that the Book Of Exodus (for which we have no corroborating archaeological or literary evidence from Egypt for any Israelite presence ever in Egypt let alone of an "exodus") dates to c. 1446 BC due to its reference of being 480 years before the construction of the Temple of Solomon, compared to Khufu's Pyramid (being near in date to all the others) was completed a thousand years earlier, in 2560 BC. Never mind that we know based upon archaeology what the use of these pyramids was. The main problem is that it represents another part of the trend - that evangelicals, like Carson, value their strict adherence to their claimed perfect historicity of the Bible over evidence to the contrary. Someone who is unwilling to reassess based upon new, and more reliable information, due to the obstinacy of their dogma strikes me personally as someone unqualified for office.

And is he really an outlier in their field? They may not all be crazy enough to believe this, but how many of them believe that the exodus actually happened, or that the Flood did, or that evolution was a lie propagated by the Devil?

GonzoTheGreat
11-07-2015, 11:05 AM
At first glance, Saint Gregory's idea may seem sensible. But then you start to wonder: once you've filled the things up with grain, how do you get it out again?

Kimon
11-07-2015, 11:30 AM
At first glance, Saint Gregory's idea may seem sensible. But then you start to wonder: once you've filled the things up with grain, how do you get it out again?

Well, obviously...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3ihWxPL5eA

Kimon
11-07-2015, 12:18 PM
In more wtf weirdness with Ben Carson...

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34752580

Usually a candidate faced with previously unrevealed evidence of youthful indiscretions - or worse - denies the charges. Such was the case with Republican nominee Mitt Romney in 2012, when reporters unearthed evidence that he bullied other students in high school.
Here, however, Mr Carson is asserting that recollections from childhood acquaintances that he was bookish and shy are mistaken. Instead he's testified to the veracity of examples of misbehaviour that he cites as evidence of his childhood temper, including that:
He tried to stab a "close relative" in the stomach and was unsuccessful only because his knife was blocked by a large belt buckle
His brother forcefully restrained him when he attacked his mother with a hammer during an argument over clothing
He punched a school classmate in the forehead, leaving the child bleeding profusely from a three-inch cut
He threw a rock at a boy's face, breaking his glasses and lacerating his nose

Mr Carson recounts these stories during speeches and in his autobiography as evidence that he was a misguided youth who only achieved success after a religious awakening. It's part of the narrative that has earned the renowned neurosurgeon a devoted following among the evangelical community for years and is one of the reasons why he has attracted strong support from voters in Iowa, a key battleground in the Republican nomination race.

A CNN report found no evidence backing up any of Mr Carson's claims, however - even those that Mr Carson said took place on school grounds. Mr Carson appeared on CNN Friday morning to defend himself, leading to a heated confrontation when network presenter Alisyn Camerota pressed him for further details.
"This is a bunch of lies attempting to say I'm lying about my history," Mr Carson said. "I think it's pathetic, and basically what the media does is they try to get you distracted."

Southpaw2012
11-07-2015, 01:23 PM
The republican candidates are really starting to freak me out. They all have huge fatal flaws that would be downright scary in the Oval Office.

And Hillary doesn't? Saying things that people don't agree with is better than compulsively lying like Clinton has.

It's been proven that Politico lied about Carson and West Point. The other stuff he's said is just controversial if you're an atheist.

Southpaw2012
11-07-2015, 01:25 PM
At first glance, Saint Gregory's idea may seem sensible. But then you start to wonder: once you've filled the things up with grain, how do you get it out again?

Who is to say that Carson is wrong? We know he's wrong when he says that the pyramids weren't built for the pharaohs, but it's wrong to say that he's incorrect about the use for grain, because we don't know. It's plausible. The attacks on Carson come from atheists who have a beef with everything nowadays because they want attention.

Kimon
11-07-2015, 01:43 PM
Who is to say that Carson is wrong? We know he's wrong when he says that the pyramids weren't built for the pharaohs, but it's wrong to say that he's incorrect about the use for grain, because we don't know. It's plausible. The attacks on Carson come from atheists who have a beef with everything nowadays because they want attention.

They've all been excavated. They weren't granaries. We have found some interesting burial items for use in the afterlife for the mummified pharaohs, but they clearly were not dual-use structures. There were no rooms set aside for the storage of grain. As for the West Point issue. Regardless of whether he ever met Westmoreland, he clearly never applied to West Point. He may think he would have gotten in (which would have automatically have meant full ride, since all who get accepted to West Point get that), which is not implausible considering he got into Yale, but that doesn't alter the fact that he never applied, and so never gave them the opportunity to make that decision.

His statements are being ridiculed for good reason - because they don't stand up against scrutiny. There are serious candidates available for you to vote for, like Rubio or Kasich. But it is disturbing that it is not they, but the amateurish clowns that are polling well.

Rand al'Fain
11-07-2015, 04:43 PM
Who is to say that Carson is wrong? We know he's wrong when he says that the pyramids weren't built for the pharaohs, but it's wrong to say that he's incorrect about the use for grain, because we don't know. It's plausible. The attacks on Carson come from atheists who have a beef with everything nowadays because they want attention.

We do know about the pyramids though. They've been excavated and explored many times. And you know what? They are not hollow on the inside.
Here's an example with The Great Pyramid.
http://www.historyonthenet.com/files/fs/egyptians/images/greatpyramiddiagram.jpg

Not exactly the kind of place to store grain.

Frenzy
11-07-2015, 06:10 PM
deleted because there's waaaaaay too much stupid in this thread for my mental health, and i'm going to back away slowly so i don't get splashed by it.

Daekyras
11-07-2015, 08:38 PM
http://www.historyonthenet.com/files/fs/egyptians/images/greatpyramiddiagram.jpg

Not exactly the kind of place to store grain.

I don't know- perhaps grand gallery is just a mis- translation of "grain gallery".

And what colour is grain? An off yellow. Like a lot of that picture. Look between the lines Rand. #ancientaliens

GonzoTheGreat
11-08-2015, 03:50 AM
Who is to say that Carson is wrong? We know he's wrong when he says that the pyramids weren't built for the pharaohs, but it's wrong to say that he's incorrect about the use for grain, because we don't know. It's plausible. The attacks on Carson come from atheists who have a beef with everything nowadays because they want attention.
What specific reason would Josef have had for starting to build a bunch of pyramids?

The things could not store anywhere near close to one tenth of one percent of what actual silos of the type the Egyptians already knew how to make with less effort could do.
The things would not keep the grain anywhere near as good as actual silos would. No way to keep the grain from spoiling, and vermin would find it very easy to enter through the large ground level, whereas silos could be placed on poles to keep the rats out.
It took a decade or more to build a large pyramide. So, if Josef started during the first of the good years, then he wouldn't be able to start storing grain in the pyramid until halfway through the bad years, at best. Whereas, if silos had been used, the work could have been done in a few months or less.

On top of that, there are the actual accounts of the actual Egyptians who actually build the pyramides telling us why they did it. Can you come up with a reason why they would have been plotting to make Carson out to a liar, 3,500 years after they themselves had died?

The simplest explanation by far is that Carson is simply wrong. If you want to assume that he was right, then you need to assume both that Joseph was an idiot, that all the Egyptian officials who were his rivals were also idiots who didn't see through his stupid idea, and that hundreds, maybe thousands, of Egyptians knew in advance precisely what lies to tell to deceive the atheists in a country they had never even heard of.
So, do you think it is reasonable to make those seemingly stupid assumptions, and if so, why?

Davian93
11-09-2015, 10:48 AM
And Hillary doesn't? Saying things that people don't agree with is better than compulsively lying like Clinton has.

It's been proven that Politico lied about Carson and West Point. The other stuff he's said is just controversial if you're an atheist.

Despite Breitbart and Foxnews saying that, that's not at all accurate. They changed the wording of their story with new details and actually showed that his dishonesty was worse than initially thought. But yeah, totally believe Breitbart there.

They changed the wording from "he admits fabricating West Point scholarship" to "Carson claimed West Point scholarship but never applied"

They literally updated it by saying that he never even applied...which makes it even worse for him. Just because the new wording doesnt have "fabricate" anymore doesn't make the whole claiming it but never even applying better.

But hell, listen to Breitbart and Foxnews.

Ozymandias
11-09-2015, 07:55 PM
Perhaps this shouldn't be a surprise. After all, we've long known that he denies evolution, but the pyramids? This seems an even more disturbing and egregious example of cognitive dissonance. Trump at least seems calculating and clever in his demagoguery. He is a bombastic schmuck, but at least he does not seem, like Carson, a candidate drawn from the cast of Ancient Aliens.

What is even MORE amazing is that this means that the Bible is wrong! Because the Bible clearly states that the Hebrews were enslaved after the famine to which Carson refers, which means either the Egyptians built the Pyramids themselves, contrary to common scholarly thought, or that Joseph presided over the enslavement of his own people

Ozymandias
11-09-2015, 08:03 PM
Who is to say that Carson is wrong? We know he's wrong when he says that the pyramids weren't built for the pharaohs, but it's wrong to say that he's incorrect about the use for grain, because we don't know. It's plausible. The attacks on Carson come from atheists who have a beef with everything nowadays because they want attention.

Whoa whoa whoa. See, this is the worst kind of retroactive explanation possible. What it seems like you're saying is that because grain may have been stored in the Pyramids (and in truth, thats almost certainly correct, as it would have been included as funerary goods), that means that Ben Carson is correct and thus, the opprobrium being heaped on him is misplaced.

Which could not be less the case. Carson is making a specific statement; that the Biblical (and un-historical) figure of Joseph had the Pyramids built to store grain for the onset of the divinely-revealed famine. Which is just not true. Even if you believe the Bible to be revealed wisdom, it still contradicts the internal chronology of the Old Testament. There should be literally not one person on Earth willing to support this statement.

Besides which, the fact that part of claim is true (that at some point, there was some bit of grain inside the Great Pyramid) does not validate either the rest of the statement, or give the stater a pass on the intellectual cretinism of making the statement in the first place. If I claim that little fairies come into my room and night and shove human feces down my throat, which is why my poop looks like it does and not like the food I eat, the utter nonsense of the entire statement is not somehow made more palatable by the fact that I do, in fact, poop.

Insanity like this was one of my major reasons for not voting McCain 08 (Palin's nonsense, that is). As far as I'm concerned, making a statement like this is an automatic disqualification for the Presidency.

GonzoTheGreat
11-10-2015, 05:16 AM
Insanity like this was one of my major reasons for not voting McCain 08 (Palin's nonsense, that is). As far as I'm concerned, making a statement like this is an automatic disqualification for the Presidency.If you're that picky, then it would be hard to find any Republican you're willing to vote for.

Rand al'Fain
11-12-2015, 04:17 PM
McCain, compared to the current crop of Republican candidates, looks incredible (VP choice not withstanding).

GonzoTheGreat
11-13-2015, 03:05 AM
Dan Quayle looks very good, compared to the current candidates. That doesn't say much about Quayle, though.

Kimon
11-18-2015, 10:45 PM
Dan Quayle looks very good, compared to the current candidates. That doesn't say much about Quayle, though.

Even Carson's advisers admit that he's a moron...

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/18/us/politics/ben-carson-is-struggling-to-grasp-foreign-policy-advisers-say.html?_r=0

“Nobody has been able to sit down with him and have him get one iota of intelligent information about the Middle East,” said Duane R. Clarridge, a top adviser to Mr. Carson on terrorism and national security. He also said Mr. Carson needed weekly conference calls briefing him on foreign policy so “we can make him smart.”

Davian93
11-19-2015, 11:35 AM
He appears to be collapsing Herman Cain style (or Newt style)...and oddly enough, Trump is surging once again.

GonzoTheGreat
11-19-2015, 12:20 PM
Look on the bright side: if this continues, then Trump is gonna have to pick a VP candidate.

Terez
11-19-2015, 12:42 PM
He appears to be collapsing Herman Cain style (or Newt style)...and oddly enough, Trump is surging once again.
I get the nod to Newt but there's no point shying away from the fact that Cain is the right analogy. The Republicans have to search far and wide for POC willing to run on their ticket. So they got a pizza exec and a neurosurgeon, neither of which was really vetted by the people who raised them up, and neither of them could stand up to scrutiny because scrutiny is not really in it when you're a GOP POC.