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The Unreasoner
11-10-2015, 11:27 PM
So I just finished a reread, and I'm curious how people's opinions of characters shifted over time. So I thought we could post our three favorite and three most hated characters for each book. And maybe discuss why, for the odder choices (iow, while I hated Egwene after she started treating Nynaeve like shit, so did a lot of people. But Androl is a fucking douchebag imho, and I'm curious if others share the sentiment).

Here's mine:
TEotW
Favorites:
Rand
Moiraine
Nynaeve

Hated:
Thom
Perrin
Loial

TGH
Favorites:
Rand
Nynaeve
Ingtar

Hated:
Loial
Hurin
Liandrin

TDR
Favorites:
Nynaeve
Mat
Elayne

Hated:
Egwene
Perrin
Thom

TSR
Favorites:
Rand
Nynaeve
Perrin

Hated:
Egwene
Thom
Loial

TFoH
Favorites:
Rand
Nynaeve
Mat

Hated:
Egwene
Thom
Gareth Bryne

LoC
Favorites:
Rand
Nynaeve
Perrin

Hated:
Loial
Egwene
Gareth Bryne

ACoS
Favorites:
Rand
Mat
Bashere

Hated:
Egwene
Toram
Colavere

TPoD
Favorites:
Rand
Cadsuane
Verin

Hated:
Weiramon
Suroth
Zaida

WH
Favorites:
Rand
Cadsuane
Mat

Hated:
Egwene
Thom
Zaida

CoT
Favorites:
Perrin
Mat
Elayne

Hated:
Egwene
Thom
Gareth Bryne

KoD
Favorites:
Mat
Perrin
Faile

Hated:
Egwene
Thom
Ellorien

TGS
Favorites:
Rand
Nynaeve
Cadsuane

Hated:
Egwene
Mat
Gareth Bryne

ToM
Favorites:
Perrin
Ituralde
Galad

Hated:
Egwene
Androl
Rand

AMoL
Favorites:
Perrin
Nynaeve
Lan

Hated:
Egwene
Androl
Mat

Terez
11-11-2015, 01:41 PM
Apparently you are lost. Dragonmount is here (http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/forum/8-general-wheel-of-time-discussion/).

The Unreasoner
11-11-2015, 03:53 PM
Meh. It's a pretty low bar thread, sure. I wouldn't have bothered if Zen Rand wasn't so obnoxious and Androl wasn't so full of zemai he had lagrape. I had forgotten how much thise two bugged me. It's not like we have an abundance of quality threads I'm distracting everyone from. The Companion looks like it won't cover much I care about (how does the Wheel work, how are the worlds laid out, what other secondary purposes the OP has, how does the Horn work, how do Portal Stones work, how does the Song work, etc). I just thought this was a cheap way to generate moderately interesting discussion.

I have an idea for a more fun and substantial thread, but I don't gave the time I need to do it right atm.

fionwe1987
11-11-2015, 05:11 PM
It seems like an overlong way to show us you consistently hate Egwene, including in books where she isn't even a PoV character (WH). and is barely present in one scene. Yawn.

The Unreasoner
11-11-2015, 05:55 PM
It seems like an overlong way to show us you consistently hate Egwene, including in books where she isn't even a PoV character (WH). and is barely present in one scene. Yawn.

That wasn't really the point, actually. Egwene bashing threads have been done to death. People know my position: she abused and manipulated Nynaeve for no real purpose, blackmailed and extorted sisters to submit to a de facto Compulsion (again, with no real need), and said obvious falsehoods to Gawyn (after she had been bound). Which, imo, indicate a lack of maturity, ethics, and mental discipline; respectively.

I'm more interested in whether people found Androl as painfully zemaiy as I did, found Thom's reputation overblown, groaned through the Loial scenes. Did their opinions on Perrin change as quickly as mine? And why the hell do people hate Elayne or Faile? Those two, Min, and Mat are the only major characters who are actually intelligent. Rand's story may be engaging, but he gets more credit than he deserves in terms of leadership ability or cunning. Sure, Cadsuane's smarter (and Verin's even smarter than her), but they're a bit more secondary.

Kimon
11-11-2015, 06:41 PM
I'm more interested in whether people found Androl as painfully zemaiy as I did

I would have focused on Logain, Flinn, & Narishma myself, but it is somewhat understandable that Sanderson wanted to work with a character that he would create almost entirely himself, since previously he had been little more than a name. I doesn't seem like you'll find anyone who was happy with the result however. Androl seemed to annoy everyone. I am somewhat curious as to what you had actually intended to write instead of "zemaiy", however.

found Thom's reputation overblown

I liked Thom, but more so in the early books. He should have died at Whitebridge and Moiraine at the Docks. I'd have brought them back as married Heroes of the Horn at Merrilor, thus fulfilling Min's viewing in slightly less anticlimactic fashion.

groaned through the Loial scenes

Like Thom, his character fit much better into the plot in early books than in the later.

Did their opinions on Perrin change as quickly as mine

He had bad luck - i.e. he drew the lot of the boring plot lines...

And why the hell do people hate Elayne or Faile

Seems like most like Elayne, not Faile. Perrin should have ended up with Berelain. Elayne should have ended up with Mat, but that's a separate issue. I think the main problem with Faile is that her abduction plot was in need of some massive trimming.

Those two, Min, and Mat are the only major characters who are actually intelligent

Moiraine also. Those three are my three favorite characters. I really miss the fact that we will never have those other two Moiraine prequels - New Spring was probably my favorite book, even more so than TSR or LoC.

Terez
11-11-2015, 07:20 PM
I am somewhat curious as to what you had actually intended to write instead of "zemaiy", however.
See, you fell for his bait. (zemai=maize=corn)

Kimon
11-11-2015, 07:27 PM
See, you fell for his bait. (zemai=maize=corn)

Well, that is at least somewhat amusingly ironic...

Out of curiosity, do we know the Old Tongue word for Blue?

Edit - Found it, era. So, zemai e era. I'm guessing there is unfortunately no Old Tongue word for wolverine...

yks 6nnetu hing
11-12-2015, 12:48 AM
I feel the need to point out that bashing any character (and yes, we've had problems with Egwene-haters in the past. Still, any character) may get your post edited or moved.

Me, I'm "special" in that I've never come across a WoT fan who hates Mat as much as I do.



but that's mostly because whenever I meet people like him in real life I instantly hate them. so, you know, a fictional man-child with wild narcissism and kleptomania doesn't get my respect and neither does a real one.

fionwe1987
11-12-2015, 01:47 AM
I tend to find I don't "hate" any of the protagonists. Gawyn comes close, but he's more an annoying gnat.

I do feel some dislike for Mat. He's redeemed by being funny in his blissful unawareness, but yes, the narcissism and irresponsible attitude, the suspicion and distrust... I can't tolerate it much either.

Boli
11-12-2015, 06:07 AM
I do find it amusing that the characters I liked/hated the two which completely flip around in my head are Galad and Gawyn.

Up to book 3 Gawyn seems the cool one and Galad just the boring does what he is told sort. Galad is the one to follow the rules exactly and Gawyn the more flexible.

Their lives mirror each others so much (they both had to betray, they both had to kill their commander, they both fight demandred, they both liked egwene) but its almost fascinating viewing their lives and the decisions they have made almost as a scientific experiment.

Subject #1 appears to have made a more mature decision and accepts his lot in life.

Subject #2 appears to have no direction and bounces around like an immature brat.

Both have been treated the same and have been given the same experiences.

I think this was done intentionally by RJ as a way of showing parallel lives and mirror worlds of "what could have been".

GonzoTheGreat
11-12-2015, 06:23 AM
As some of you may know, I am not impressed by Egwene's character. But that is an assessment based on "how would I think of someone like that if I knew the person in real life". As a book-character, she consistent and (for someone like her) logical in her attitudes, so I do not think RJ was wrong to include her. It is just that for me, Egwene is a younger and more hypocritical version of Elaida. The latter makes no real pretence of being a friend of Rand (or of any male, for that matter), so she is more honest in her approach.
Thus, while I dislike Egwene as a person, I'm not actually sure that I can say that I dislike her as a character in the books. Hate is definitely inapplicable, though that might be an option if I met someone like that in real life.

Of course, when it comes to "people I wouldn't like to meet in reality", Egwene comes a long way behind for instance Padan Fain, so there's that. On the other hand, as a character in the series I prefer Fain, since he is more honest.

Thus, the like and hate questions also depends on the context.

fionwe1987
11-12-2015, 10:25 AM
For me, at least, Egwene never stood out before I started discussing WoT (on wotmania, back in the day). The sheer amount of vitriol was stunning, and that made me reassess the character. I still wouldn't say she's more of a favorite than Rand, or Cadsuane or Nynaeve, but almost a decade of defending a character does make you think of them as a sort of pet project.

For the large part, I think her arc went well. The troubling stuff about RJ and the ex-girlfriend snuff stuff aside, it was good to see that RJ didn't succumb to the "all good leaders are reluctant" nonsense. Ambition, drive, curiosity... these are great things. Apart from being rarely present in epic fantasy heroes, they're rarely shown as positive attributes in female characters, so I was bound to root for Egwene anyway.

That said, I think Egwene truly came into her own in KoD. Till then, I'd say her story-arc was still in the "training" phase. Only as a captive in the Tower do we see her start amalgamating her learning from all her mentors: Nynaeve, Moiraine, Wise Ones, Siuan... and so, that KoD chapter felt truly earned.

Plus, I still think that chapter is one of the finest examples of the economy of writing RJ possessed when he wanted it. Some of his finest writing.

Weiramon
11-12-2015, 01:03 PM
I feel the need to point out that bashing any character (and yes, we've had problems with Egwene-haters in the past. Still, any character) may get your post edited or moved.

Me, I'm "special" in that I've never come across a WoT fan who hates Mat as much as I do.



but that's mostly because whenever I meet people like him in real life I instantly hate them. so, you know, a fictional man-child with wild narcissism and kleptomania doesn't get my respect and neither does a real one.


That Cauthon lout certainly deserves the disapprobation, having no respect for rank and title.

As for that young puppet of an Amyrlin, of course she is held in contempt - it would not surprise to hear she's the daughter of some barkeep from a flyspeck village of no consequence.

Southpaw2012
11-12-2015, 03:25 PM
Egwene is awesome. Elayne, on the other hand, is annoying.

fionwe1987
11-12-2015, 05:56 PM
My only issue with Elayne is that she is very bland to read about, most of the time.

Terez
11-12-2015, 11:22 PM
Egwene is awesome. Elayne, on the other hand, is annoying.
We agree on something!

Ivhon
12-04-2015, 09:50 AM
/pokes head in again

Perrin is the Two Rivers character I find least fault with...although he's boring as hell

The middle aged protagonists are the ones I like most - Moiraine, Lan, Amys, Rhuarc. Tend to not like the older characters who seem nothing but overbearing arrogance, clucks and pfaws.

Rand, Matt and Egwene I basically like but sometimes want to bitchslap for being stubborn/irresponsible

I mostly like Elayne with Avi and mostly dislike her with Nynaeve. Because I mostly like Avi and mostly dislike/revile Nynaeve

Siuan before arriving at Fal Dara thumbs up. Siuan after arriving at Fal Dara thumbs down.

Equal contempt for Faile and Berelain.

Daekyras
12-04-2015, 10:07 AM
TU- you got some explaining to do. How can you hate Hurin?

Also, I love yks. She is literally the only person I've ever come across that genuinely hates mat.

fionwe1987
12-04-2015, 12:08 PM
Siuan before arriving at Fal Dara thumbs up. Siuan after arriving at Fal Dara thumbs down.

You mean Siuan in New Spring? I find that Siuan interesting, but much more bland than the main series one. NS is all focussed on Moiraine, so we don't really see Siuan get to shine.

I like Siuan most once she was stilled. It freed her from needing to be too cautious. Once she stopped worrying about her own survival, she started really kicking some ass.

I've always wondered what would have happened if Siuan was the one who toured the world and found the Dragon, and Moiraine was the one who was roped into Tower politics. They'd have been playing to their strengths then. Siuan was much more earthy and approachable, and likely would have been easier for the TR folk to trust and get along with.

Moiraine was a much more dangerous player of the Great Game, I felt. Siuan is definitely very knowledgeable and understands politics very well. But she's also way too blunt sometimes. She can keep her head down, but Moiraine always does. I doubt Elaida would have caught Moiraine off guard.

connabard
12-04-2015, 03:35 PM
I haven't read the books in awhile but my favourite characters are Rand, Perrin (outside of the 3 book bullshit) Nynaeve, Min, Moiraine, and Cadsuane.
I am pretty neutral to Egwene, Galad, Thom, Loial, and more positive towards Lan than not but I just found him to be pretty 1-note the entire series.

My least favourites are Elayne, (though it's mostly because I just found her chapters were written in a boring manner. I don't like her decision making generally or whatever, but it's just really a pain to read her chapters) Androl, Aviendha, Tuon, Mat. (Mat's entertaining to read but his character is nearly unbearable)

GonzoTheGreat
12-05-2015, 03:48 AM
TU- you got some explaining to do. How can you hate Hurin?He may think that Hurin is far too obsequious towards nobles. Think of it this way: Weiramon would approve of Hurin.

Also, I love yks. She is literally the only person I've ever come across that genuinely hates mat.I think she's just faking it.

The Unreasoner
12-05-2015, 10:49 PM
He may think that Hurin is far too obsequious towards nobles. Think of it this way: Weiramon would approve of Hurin.

This is half right. I generally disapprove of characters fawning over someone without any real cause. And some abandon dignity to such an extent that they're almost sniveling little shells of hot air. Inhuman. At least while fawning.

But that's almost the sum total of Hurin's character. He's basically just Rand's hype man (and an exposition machine). Loial's almost as bad: he basically has 10 lines in the entire series, and just says them in different ways (though part of it is how much he killed the 'cool factor'. First rule of being cool: if you mention it, you're a tool).

And Moiraine was way out of Thom's league (and when the hell did they fall in love anyway?). Just throwing that out there.

Daekyras
12-06-2015, 04:00 AM
This is half right. I generally disapprove of characters fawning over someone without any real cause. And some abandon dignity to such an extent that they're almost sniveling little shells of hot air. Inhuman. At least while fawning.

But that's almost the sum total of Hurin's character. He's basically just Rand's hype man (and an exposition machine). Loial's almost as bad: he basically has 10 lines in the entire series, and just says them in different ways (though part of it is how much he killed the 'cool factor'. First rule of being cool: if you mention it, you're a tool).

And Moiraine was way out of Thom's league (and when the hell did they fall in love anyway?). Just throwing that out there.

Really, she is a step up from morgase, Queen of andor?

Moral of the story- Sam shepard can score any girl.

Figbiscuit
12-07-2015, 04:19 AM
And Moiraine was way out of Thom's league (and when the hell did they fall in love anyway?). Just throwing that out there.

Yeah, that never sat right for me either.

I really like the Mat/Tuon story arc. Tuon doesn't get enough screen time IMO, she kicks ass.

Davian93
12-07-2015, 07:08 AM
Yeah, that never sat right for me either.

I really like the Mat/Tuon story arc. Tuon doesn't get enough screen time IMO, she kicks ass.

I dont have an issue with them being together, I'm just curious as to when exactly it happened since they basically spent like zero real time together throughout the books.

GonzoTheGreat
12-07-2015, 07:19 AM
I dont have an issue with them being together, I'm just curious as to when exactly it happened since they basically spent like zero real time together throughout the books.
They probably kept running into each other in Tear, when they were busy manipulating the same High Lords into not bothering Rand too much.

Davian93
12-07-2015, 09:05 AM
Makes sense, Rand fell in love with Elayne during their 4 day whirlwind romance in the halls of the Stone of Tear. Clearly it is a place for lovers.

Nazbaque
12-07-2015, 09:49 AM
Nothing to say on the actual topic as such but why, WHY is one of the tags "garethfuckingbryne"???

Terez
12-07-2015, 02:11 PM
Because UR doesn't like him.

Nazbaque
12-07-2015, 04:35 PM
Because UR doesn't like him.

I got that yes, but why not just "bryne" or "gareth"?

Terez
12-07-2015, 05:47 PM
It's the art of rhetoric, mate.

Nazbaque
12-07-2015, 06:43 PM
If it's juvenile it doesn't count as art.

GonzoTheGreat
12-08-2015, 03:06 AM
If it's juvenile it doesn't count as art.
Hah! Try telling that to Justin Bieber.

Nazbaque
12-08-2015, 03:09 AM
Hah! Try telling that to Justin Bieber.

It isn't art just because people pay for it.

GonzoTheGreat
12-08-2015, 03:14 AM
It isn't art just because people pay for it.I've defined art as "managing to get people to pay for it", and no one succeeded in coming up with a good counter to that (admittedly cynical) take on the subject.
What other explanation is there for modern art?

Nazbaque
12-08-2015, 03:29 AM
I've defined art as "managing to get people to pay for it", and no one succeeded in coming up with a good counter to that (admittedly cynical) take on the subject.
What other explanation is there for modern art?

It's the emperor's new clothes effect. The vast majority of people who buy art don't understand what is art. They buy art in order to prove they understand it attacking their lack of taste with money. This is particularly evident in teenagers and in fact the big spenders in the world of art are people who never grew out of their equivalent of the pokemon phase.

Terez
12-08-2015, 05:43 AM
It's the emperor's new clothes effect. The vast majority of people who buy art don't understand what is art. They buy art in order to prove they understand it attacking their lack of taste with money. This is particularly evident in teenagers and in fact the big spenders in the world of art are people who never grew out of their equivalent of the pokemon phase.
I didn't grow up with pokemon, but I hate it for ruining the best puzzle game known to man.

connabard
12-08-2015, 11:12 AM
I dont have an issue with them being together, I'm just curious as to when exactly it happened since they basically spent like zero real time together throughout the books.

I found Mat/Tuon weird because while Mat has his prejudice to Aes Sedai it's weird he'd be ready and willing w/ someone who wants to make really inhuman pets of his best friends/pseudo-family

also Mat and Elayne had better chemistry

Weiramon
12-08-2015, 11:21 AM
He may think that Hurin is far too obsequious towards nobles. Think of it this way: Weiramon would approve of Hurin.

//

Bah, peasants should receive no accolades for merely doing their duty, showing proper deference to their betters.

fionwe1987
12-08-2015, 11:49 AM
I found Mat/Tuon weird because while Mat has his prejudice to Aes Sedai it's weird he'd be ready and willing w/ someone who wants to make really inhuman pets of his best friends/pseudo-family

also Mat and Elayne had better chemistry

Agreed. And I felt that would be addressed in the final books but it never happened.

Brita
12-08-2015, 12:16 PM
Agreed. And I felt that would be addressed in the final books but it never happened.

My biggest disappointment in the books all revolved around Tuon and the Seanchan. A climax from the natural and dramatic tension between her character's prejudices and her relationship with Mat; the anticipation of a One Power revelation on Tuon's part that would set in motion a culture change amongst the Seanchan (perhaps even seeing her channel); Egwene learning how to disable the leash and nullifying the Seanchan's domination of channelers.

I was very emotionally invested in this story line because the Seanchan culture bothered me so much. To be honest, I was more invested in that story line and the moral/power implications than I was in the DO/Rand confrontation. Probably because it reflects real life (burqa) and thus meant more to me than an over-the-top armageddon battle. I also feel like this is where Robert Jordan excelled, taking real-life politics/prejudices/issues and inserting them into the wonderful world he built.

Davian93
12-08-2015, 01:42 PM
I found Mat/Tuon weird because while Mat has his prejudice to Aes Sedai it's weird he'd be ready and willing w/ someone who wants to make really inhuman pets of his best friends/pseudo-family

also Mat and Elayne had better chemistry

Mat & Elayne made the most sense of anyone in the books...so logically it didn't happen. They even really liked each other but of course they don't end up together. Elayne gets completely short-changed by being 1/3 of the Dragon's harem. Honestly, Min & Rand make sense and Avi & Rand make sense but Elayne and Rand was just stupid from the start. Elayne turning to the Shadow because she couldn't have Rand (parallels to Mierin and LTT) would also have made sense. She falls for him as the forbidden love (who literally falls into her mom's garden) but he likes Min and/or Avi more, she lusts after him and power (only natural since she's a princess) and the rest is history.

Or even her going to Mat and Avi turning evil for much the same reason as listed above with Elayne.

Oh well.

Davian93
12-08-2015, 01:43 PM
Agreed. And I felt that would be addressed in the final books but it never happened.

Also, Mat's very firmly established opinions on right and wrong that are completely ignored in his relationship with Tuon. He'd never accept slavery ever...he always does the right thing on the big issues...so it's illogical that he'd accept their culture of slavery and abuse.

The Unreasoner
12-08-2015, 02:20 PM
Two scenes I was expecting for Egwene (and would have improved my opinion of her) as I read AMoL:

Egwene and Tuon meeting through a gateway, but it's secretly also a T'A'R gateway, and Egwene invites a sul'dam to collar her, and she frees herself in front of them. Or Egwene agreeing to trade sul'dam for damane, then simply collaring the first sul'dam she gets and handing her back (in front of half the Seanchan court).

Davian93
12-08-2015, 02:22 PM
Two scenes I was expecting for Egwene (and would have improved my opinion of her) as I read AMoL:

Egwene and Tuon meeting through a gateway, but it's secretly also a T'A'R gateway, and Egwene invites a sul'dam to collar her, and she frees herself in front of them. Or Egwene agreeing to trade sul'dam for damane, then simply collaring the first sul'dam she gets and handing her back (in front of half the Seanchan court).

The 2nd one would never work since Tuon is fully aware of sul'dam's capabilities and always has been. She wouldn't be that stupid...at least unless the writer deliberately made her so.

connabard
12-08-2015, 02:24 PM
Mat & Elayne made the most sense of anyone in the books...so logically it didn't happen. They even really liked each other but of course they don't end up together. Elayne gets completely short-changed by being 1/3 of the Dragon's harem. Honestly, Min & Rand make sense and Avi & Rand make sense but Elayne and Rand was just stupid from the start. Elayne turning to the Shadow because she couldn't have Rand (parallels to Mierin and LTT) would also have made sense. She falls for him as the forbidden love (who literally falls into her mom's garden) but he likes Min and/or Avi more, she lusts after him and power (only natural since she's a princess) and the rest is history.

Or even her going to Mat and Avi turning evil for much the same reason as listed above with Elayne.

Oh well.
I found the romance (generally) was one thing that was just handled really weirdly in WoT

I loved Lan/Nynaeve but even their romance was jarring to me at first, especially with how quickly it went from sort-of flirting to saying their undying love to each other.

Rand/Min was handled well though, and Rand/Avi though to a lesser extent, and Rand/Elayne was entirely ridiculous.

I also found Gawyn/Egwene to be really out of left field but also as much as I'm on the fence about Egwene it strikes me as odd that she'd pair up with the most moronic guy there is

I believe there was a time when Egwene and Elayne both tell Gawyn explicitly that Rand brought no harm to Morgase and he still held his grudge to kill him...what a moron

Davian93
12-08-2015, 02:37 PM
The Gawyn/Egwene thing made no sense...Galad/Egwene made much more sense.

The whole "Gawyn hates Rand" subplot was utterly idiotic from the start. All Egwene has to do is say "Yeah, I was there when Rand found out Morgase died and went to avenge her" but she never does. That's just bad writing. Also, Gawyn believes a random peddler over all the most important people in his life? I mean, I know you're trying to write him to be stupid but that's pushing it.

Daekyras
12-08-2015, 03:46 PM
The Gawyn/Egwene thing made no sense...Galad/Egwene made much more sense.

The whole "Gawyn hates Rand" subplot was utterly idiotic from the start. All Egwene has to do is say "Yeah, I was there when Rand found out Morgase died and went to avenge her" but she never does. That's just bad writing. Also, Gawyn believes a random peddler over all the most important people in his life? I mean, I know you're trying to write him to be stupid but that's pushing it.

Gawyn was alright up to the point he got smacked in the head by mat. Then he became almost insufferable. The whole relationship with Egwene was silly. It actually would have made sense for Egwene to love Galad and and Gawyn the to turn to the darkside.

Then we could have had a duel between the two. With Galad Winning.

Mat and Elayne was a nice idea but it would have needed to be set up from the start. I.e. her having no relationship beyond friendship with Rand. Also- it would have made those scenes with her and Rand being cagey after she takes the throne more sensible as they wouldn't be lovers she'd just be his mates bird.

Edit: watching a Jason statham film. Hence the last sentence slipping in.

Nazbaque
12-08-2015, 10:19 PM
Egwene/Gawyn actually makes a lot of sense when you consider certain parts of their personalities. I'm not trying to bash Egwene here, but one fact through out the series is her high opinion of herself. The bashing turns up when readers disagree with that opinion. Gawyn has been raised to kiss up to women. His mother was queen and his younger sister was to be the next one. Add Aes Sedai importance by Elaida's standards and we have an utterly spineless young man who is never going to disagree with a woman. Well maybe Gawyn isn't quite that extreme, but you see where I'm getting at. Gawyn is quite possibly the only man in the world who would put up with Egwene.

Elayne/Rand makes sense from Elayne's point of view, but not Rand's especially with Min and Aviendha in the mix. Rand is Elayne's chance to have a fairy tale romance instead of a political marriage and the fact that they don't spend much time together actually helps this as he can't show himself to be different from her fantasy lover.

From Rand's point of view it could make sense if at least one of the following were true:

1) Rand actually has the hots for Morgase and hopes that Elayne is a younger clone. Rand's Andor related actions make a lot more sense if one assumes this.

2) Rand sees Elayne as a means for keeping Aviendha and Min from killing each other.

3) Rand pretends to have feelings for Elayne, because Aviendha would kill him and herself otherwise.

4) Rand pretends to have feelings for Elayne, because Aviendha would break up with him.

5) Rand pretends to have feelings for Elayne, because Min would break up with him.

6) Rand pretends to have feelings for Elayne, because Min would insist on marriage and babies on the spot.

7) Rand pretends to have feelings for Elayne, because Aviendha would insist on marriage and babies on the spot.

8) Rand pretends to have feelings for Elayne in order to get her to bed and brag about it to Mat.

9) Rand would pretend to have feelings for any woman in order to get her to bed and brag about it to Mat.

10) Rand would pretend to have feelings for any woman in order to hide his secret relationship with Mat.

Okay that last one was just to get a full 10, though it was a great deal of fun to reread the whole thing while imagining that the ta'veren boys were gay for each other.

fionwe1987
12-08-2015, 11:14 PM
My biggest disappointment in the books all revolved around Tuon and the Seanchan. A climax from the natural and dramatic tension between her character's prejudices and her relationship with Mat; the anticipation of a One Power revelation on Tuon's part that would set in motion a culture change amongst the Seanchan (perhaps even seeing her channel); Egwene learning how to disable the leash and nullifying the Seanchan's domination of channelers.

I was very emotionally invested in this story line because the Seanchan culture bothered me so much. To be honest, I was more invested in that story line and the moral/power implications than I was in the DO/Rand confrontation. Probably because it reflects real life (burqa) and thus meant more to me than an over-the-top armageddon battle. I also feel like this is where Robert Jordan excelled, taking real-life politics/prejudices/issues and inserting them into the wonderful world he built.
I would have liked this, but I'm also not surprised this didn't happen. For one, the best I was hoping for was a beginning to a resolution to the issue, not a final solution.

And it seemed like we got one, but it was pretty terrible. Tuon cannot possibly have been stupid enough to believe her recruiters will convince more women of Randland that being damane is good and desirable compared to Egwene's, promising freedom, power and access to the political and economic might of the Tower.

But beyond that, I'm not surprised we didn't see anything. RJ had always set up the Seanchan as a "Good" society with slavery. I never expected it to all be flipped in a few months.

fionwe1987
12-08-2015, 11:22 PM
Also, Mat's very firmly established opinions on right and wrong that are completely ignored in his relationship with Tuon. He'd never accept slavery ever...he always does the right thing on the big issues...so it's illogical that he'd accept their culture of slavery and abuse.

Agreed. I'm really surprised that his treason against the Seanchan Empire by letting the Sea Folk damane free never came up. That would have been a goot starting point from where they could have had him and Tuon discuss the issue.

Two scenes I was expecting for Egwene (and would have improved my opinion of her) as I read AMoL:

Egwene and Tuon meeting through a gateway, but it's secretly also a T'A'R gateway, and Egwene invites a sul'dam to collar her, and she frees herself in front of them. Or Egwene agreeing to trade sul'dam for damane, then simply collaring the first sul'dam she gets and handing her back (in front of half the Seanchan court).


The first won't work. For one, the moment the Sul'dam comes through to Egwene's side, she's start accidentally changing things, giving up the game. For another, the a'dam she uses will be real. I'm not sure how easily Egwene would have been able to get rid of it.

The Gawyn/Egwene thing made no sense...Galad/Egwene made much more sense.
Agreed. And it looks like RJ wasn't sure, till LoC, or even after.

one fact through out the series is her high opinion of herself. The bashing turns up when readers disagree with that opinion.
Oh the irony of having these two statements next to each other! :D

Nazbaque
12-08-2015, 11:26 PM
Oh the irony of having these two statements next to each other! :D

What irony?

The Unreasoner
12-09-2015, 12:00 AM
The first won't work. For one, the moment the Sul'dam comes through to Egwene's side, she's start accidentally changing things, giving up the game. For another, the a'dam she uses will be real. I'm not sure how easily Egwene would have been able to get rid of it.

You lack imagination. If Egwene is half as capable as she believes herself to be, she could hold the room steady. Sul'dam being there in the flesh would also be more stable. And Egwene could provide the a'dam, even offer it for examination. She may ebmven be capable of altering a real one. Rahvin could alter Rand.

Daekyras
12-09-2015, 02:49 AM
You lack imagination. If Egwene is half as capable as she believes herself to be, she could hold the room steady. Sul'dam being there in the flesh would also be more stable. And Egwene could provide the a'dam, even offer it for examination. She may ebmven be capable of altering a real one. Rahvin could alter Rand.

Altering a physical object in TAR, that's so Rahvin...

sorry.

now, this does seem to be ever so slightly approaching an Egwene bashing topic....

GonzoTheGreat
12-09-2015, 04:02 AM
The whole "Gawyn hates Rand" subplot was utterly idiotic from the start. All Egwene has to do is say "Yeah, I was there when Rand found out Morgase died and went to avenge her" but she never does. That's just bad writing.No, it is just Egwene.

From Rand's point of view it could make sense if at least one of the following were true:11) Rand is mad.

Love is actually easy to understand if you approach it rationally. :D

Nazbaque
12-09-2015, 04:09 AM
No, it is just Egwene.

11) Rand is mad.

Love is actually easy to understand if you approach it rationally. :D

Doesn't apply gonzo. There are lots of ways to be mad without going after Elayne.

Terez
12-09-2015, 04:19 AM
Egwene/Gawyn actually makes a lot of sense when you consider certain parts of their personalities. I'm not trying to bash Egwene here, but one fact through out the series is her high opinion of herself. The bashing turns up when readers disagree with that opinion. Gawyn has been raised to kiss up to women.
Galad kissed up to her too before he realized that Gawyn was interested in her. She went for Gawyn over Galad because he seemed more real to her, less out of her league, and because Elayne encouraged it.

Nazbaque
12-09-2015, 04:29 AM
Galad kissed up to her too before he realized that Gawyn was interested in her. She went for Gawyn over Galad because he seemed more real to her, less out of her league, and because Elayne encouraged it.

Galad has a strict moral code that might require him to oppose Egwene. His kissing up to Egwene is a whim not a rule. Gawyn kisses up to her by default.

Terez
12-09-2015, 04:53 AM
Galad has a strict moral code that might require him to oppose Egwene. His kissing up to Egwene is a whim not a rule. Gawyn kisses up to her by default.
That's... an interesting opinion.

Davian93
12-09-2015, 07:41 AM
Galad kissed up to her too before he realized that Gawyn was interested in her. She went for Gawyn over Galad because he seemed more real to her, less out of her league, and because Elayne encouraged it.

I thought it was Gawyn that wouldn't make a move on a girl if Galad was interested because Galad saved his life...or am I misunderstanding your post?


Galad and Egwene makes more sense in that it would explain his joining the Whitecloaks after the girl he loves is "betrayed" in his eyes at least by the Amyrlin...and his redemption through Egwene bringing the Whitecloaks back to a normal non-Nazi existence would also make sense there.

Gawyn simply lowers Egwene because he's a bratty, whiny kid whereas Galad could at least justify everythign he did. Gawyn murders two of his mentors to support Elaida (who he despises?) Yeah that makes total sense. Gawyn is a big dumb idiot that drags Egwene down whereas Galad would have at least been an adult and moderating/maturing influence on Egwene. Galad, for example, would have NEVER pulled all that crap that Gawyn was pulling up to and during the Last Battle.

yks 6nnetu hing
12-09-2015, 08:05 AM
Galad has a strict moral code that might require him to oppose Egwene. His kissing up to Egwene is a whim not a rule. Gawyn kisses up to her by default.

I kind of agree with this, although with a caveat that 1) Gawyn's moral code isn't really explored very deeply in the books. 2) we don't know if it's a whim or not (on both Gawyn and Galad). Probably Galad's moral code required him to pull back as soon as Gawyn indicated interest/Egwene indicated preference for Gawyn (I can't remember which happened first - that Galad was aware of)

Galad's moral code is his defining characteristic, much like Egwene's ambition is her defining characteristic. it's quite clear that the two would eventually clash, though they might have complimented each other really well. Personally, I think Egwene picked Gawyn because he seemed "safer" and more "normal", especially after Rand. You know, if your ex is The Dragon Reborn, you're almost bound to pick someone... without sharp edges. She overcompensated a bit :rolleyes:

Davian93
12-09-2015, 09:12 AM
The biggest issue I have with Gawyn/Egwene other than the personality conflict is that Gawyn is really kinda stupid (at least he's written that way). Egwene, love her or hate her, is a pretty smart and ambitious girl who always excels at whatever she does. Gawyn is the High School QB who peaks at 18 and is washing cars for a living the rest of his life...50 lbs overweight, a heavy drinking problem and serious male pattern baldness, etc.

Galad, at least, seems pretty smart, capable, etc. It would have been a more equal match. He would have been a worthy advisor that complimented her much the same way that Nynaeve and Lan work well together.

ShadowbaneX
12-09-2015, 09:56 AM
Except where it comes in dealing with subordinates...or the speeches. Dear god, the speeches.

Davian93
12-09-2015, 10:13 AM
Except where it comes in dealing with subordinates...or the speeches. Dear god, the speeches.

Well, you see, Egwene is good at speeches and dealing with the subordinates but the Amyrlin isn't as...

fionwe1987
12-09-2015, 10:15 AM
Except where it comes in dealing with subordinates...or the speeches. Dear god, the speeches.

The speeches only got really unbearable from tGS. And she also started referring to herself in the third person, as "the Amyrlin". If the point was to show that she was becoming more arrogant, it was inconsistently shown, at best. If not...

As for Gawyn and Egwene... I find Gawyn bland. He does stupid things, but they don't even make sense. And he's as far from compliant to Egwene as possible without being her sworn enemy. Somewhere deep in her heart, Elayne must be thanking her stars she didn't have to deal with Gawyn as her First Prince of the Sword.

Galad and Rand were much better matches for Egwene.

ShadowbaneX
12-09-2015, 10:15 AM
Ugh. I'd managed to forget about that one in particular until now. Thanks a lot Dav.

ShadowbaneX
12-09-2015, 10:19 AM
You're missing the obvious OTP...as Dav just reminded me her perfect match is herself. It can even be a ceremony of one since I'm pretty sure she can perform it herself. Or if she doesn't want to do all thw work she can meet up with Perrin in T'A'R for ten seconds and get him to do it.

Davian93
12-09-2015, 10:51 AM
The speeches only got really unbearable from tGS. And she also started referring to herself in the third person, as "the Amyrlin". If the point was to show that she was becoming more arrogant, it was inconsistently shown, at best. If not...

As for Gawyn and Egwene... I find Gawyn bland. He does stupid things, but they don't even make sense. And he's as far from compliant to Egwene as possible without being her sworn enemy. Somewhere deep in her heart, Elayne must be thanking her stars she didn't have to deal with Gawyn as her First Prince of the Sword.

Galad and Rand were much better matches for Egwene.

"I know I've sworn to protect you and obey you as both your Warder and Husband but I'm gonna first put on these rings that will inevitably kill me and then go off trying to kill Demandred"...because that somehow falls under "keep Egwene safe".

He'd be about as good a First Prince of the Sword as Weiramon would have made a Great Captain.

GonzoTheGreat
12-09-2015, 12:07 PM
Yeah, but apart from his "I am going to kill the DR", he wasn't particularly evil.

And, frankly, distracting Demandred for a while did probably save a lot of lives, so I would say that was a worthwhile expenditure of his life. Value for money, one might say, if one were a bit cynical.

Weiramon
12-09-2015, 01:23 PM
"I know I've sworn to protect you and obey you as both your Warder and Husband but I'm gonna first put on these rings that will inevitably kill me and then go off trying to kill Demandred"...because that somehow falls under "keep Egwene safe".

He'd be about as good a First Prince of the Sword as Weiramon would have made a Great Captain.

Aye, strong praise. Both a Noble, and led cavalry. Small wonder he is at the forefront of a discussion of those most loved.

connabard
12-09-2015, 02:20 PM
Yeah, but apart from his "I am going to kill the DR", he wasn't particularly evil.

And, frankly, distracting Demandred for a while did probably save a lot of lives, so I would say that was a worthwhile expenditure of his life. Value for money, one might say, if one were a bit cynical.

He was astoundingly stupid, though. And IIRC he didn't really distract Demandred for any significant length of time; Galad did that, and lived.

Gawyn was a failure in every sense of the word and accomplished less than nothing.

Daekyras
12-09-2015, 02:48 PM
He was astoundingly stupid, though. And IIRC he didn't really distract Demandred for any significant length of time; Galad did that, and lived.

Gawyn was a failure in every sense of the word and accomplished less than nothing.

Is there anyone who likes Gawyn?

Maybe yks?

fionwe1987
12-09-2015, 06:29 PM
"I know I've sworn to protect you and obey you as both your Warder and Husband but I'm gonna first put on these rings that will inevitably kill me and then go off trying to kill Demandred"...because that somehow falls under "keep Egwene safe".
Right? And he ignores the fact that Elayne can make ter'angreal. Why not have her study these dangerous things? Maybe she could improve on them. But of course, that would mean sharing a risky plan, and running the risk of not being able to put the Light's most skilled channeler on this battlefield at needless risk.

Heck, if he'd shared this plan with Egwene, they could have come up with a better plan. Egwene distracts Demandred with a powerful circle, while Gawyn assassinates him. After all, that is what the rings were for!

He'd be about as good a First Prince of the Sword as Weiramon would have made a Great Captain.
Well said.

Davian93
12-09-2015, 08:35 PM
Is there anyone who likes Gawyn?

Maybe yks?

I don't even think Elayne really liked him all that much.

fionwe1987
12-09-2015, 10:47 PM
I don't even think Elayne really liked him all that much.

Doesn't he complain she constantly tried to get him into trouble? She probably had a reason, even if she wasn't fully aware of it.

Terez
12-10-2015, 01:00 AM
Galad kissed up to her too before he realized that Gawyn was interested in her. She went for Gawyn over Galad because he seemed more real to her, less out of her league, and because Elayne encouraged it.I thought it was Gawyn that wouldn't make a move on a girl if Galad was interested because Galad saved his life...or am I misunderstanding your post?
That's true about Gawyn but it's also true about Galad. Before Egwene and Gawyn actually hooked up, Galad was already deferring to Gawyn's feelings for her:

"Is Egwene with you?" he went on.

"No," she replied, and he sighed deeply.

"I had hoped... Gawyn was nearly unhinged with worry when she disappeared. He cares for her, too. Will you tell me where she is?"

Nynaeve took note of that "too." The man had become a Whitecloak, yet he "cared for" a woman who wanted to be Aes Sedai. Men were so strange they were hardly human sometimes.

"We will not," Elayne said firmly...
My point is that there's no difference between them when it comes to that upbringing and the way they deal with women. Gawyn defers to Galad for his reasons; Galad probably defers to Gawyn because he's not quite as "lucky" with the ladies.

Egwene made the choice in the end. I can understand why Egwene was axed but it would have been a nice thread to leave hanging, Galad promising Gawyn to take care of her as Gawyn dies, Berelain possibly still in the mix, etc. I always wanted Galad and Egwene to hook up, partly because of the foreshadowing, and partly because of the appeal of the Whitecloaks joining forces with the White Tower.

Nazbaque
12-10-2015, 01:28 AM
It's never said out right, but I've always assumed that Galad cared a lot about his younger siblings even if they had a different mother. Considering all that he does for his step-mother it fits that he would step aside for his younger step-brother.

yks 6nnetu hing
12-10-2015, 01:33 AM
nah, I perhaps don't dislike Gawyn as much as the average WoT fan, but I don't particularly like him either.

Oh god, Berelain and Galad. talk about your Romance tropes - incredibly beautiful meets incredibly beautiful, diametrically opposing personalities and moral codes, instalove...

On the one hand, Berelain does make sense for Galad - I mean, she's a queen, she's highly intelligent and even though it *appears* like she's used her body to get ahead in the world, that's not actually so. But Galad is all sorts of wrong for Berelain. She would do much better with someone more relaxed, more self-assured and centered in his own being. And, someone who would poke fun at her. Basically, she needs a male Min.

GonzoTheGreat
12-10-2015, 03:44 AM
Yeah, but she feared that Mat would be "too much like her". So she went looking for someone different, instead.

yks 6nnetu hing
12-10-2015, 03:55 AM
Yeah, but she feared that Mat would be "too much like her". So she went looking for someone different, instead.

*evil eye*

damn Mat to all hell for all eternity

GonzoTheGreat
12-10-2015, 05:06 AM
That evil eye, is that the one he lost or the one he kept?

Kimon
12-10-2015, 06:46 AM
*evil eye*

damn Mat to all hell for all eternity

Out of curiosity, yks, do you have this same strong contempt for Indiana Jones and Han Solo? Those two characters definitely seem very Mat-like to me. And like Mat, are two other lovable, slightly womanizing, but very honorable rogues.

yks 6nnetu hing
12-10-2015, 08:27 AM
Out of curiosity, yks, do you have this same strong contempt for Indiana Jones and Han Solo? Those two characters definitely seem very Mat-like to me. And like Mat, are two other lovable, slightly womanizing, but very honorable rogues.

not Han Solo. Because he's very honest about the fact that he's a bandit and a scoundrel, he never pretends to be anything else.

But Indiana Jones belongs in a prison. Disgrace to archaeologists everywhere. Turd of a human being as well.

Daekyras
12-10-2015, 08:41 AM
not Han Solo. Because he's very honest about the fact that he's a bandit and a scoundrel, he never pretends to be anything else.

But Indiana Jones belongs in a prison. Disgrace to archaeologists everywhere. Turd of a human being as well.

I don't think Han is any more up front about his crap than Mat.

Indiana jones on the other hand- he is fighting nazis. Anyone who walks in shit is going to get a little dirt on themselves.

yks 6nnetu hing
12-10-2015, 08:51 AM
I don't think Han is any more up front about his crap than Mat.

Indiana jones on the other hand- he is fighting nazis. Anyone who walks in shit is going to get a little dirt on themselves.
Name one time that Han used his superpower to take money off people while whining about how unfair life is.

Indiana Jones says he's an archaeologist and destroys EVERY site he enters. Without keeping any records of it. He's just a looter, not an archaeologist. Besides, just because someone hates Nazis does not make them a good person (or good at their job). I mean, loving the Nazi ideology definitely makes one a bad person but hating it does not make one a good person.

http://www.ablogabouthistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/jones.jpg

Nazbaque
12-10-2015, 09:20 AM
not Han Solo. Because he's very honest about the fact that he's a bandit and a scoundrel, he never pretends to be anything else.

But Indiana Jones belongs in a prison. Disgrace to archaeologists everywhere. Turd of a human being as well.

Han is a smuggler not a bandit. And I don't recall Mat ever pretending to be the nice boy.

Daekyras
12-10-2015, 09:45 AM
Name one time that Han used his superpower to take money off people while whining about how unfair life is.

Indiana Jones says he's an archaeologist and destroys EVERY site he enters. Without keeping any records of it. He's just a looter, not an archaeologist. Besides, just because someone hates Nazis does not make them a good person (or good at their job). I mean, loving the Nazi ideology definitely makes one a bad person but hating it does not make one a good person.

http://www.ablogabouthistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/jones.jpg

Name one time when Mat shot greedo? and first might I add.

Actually, I don't want to start sniping in a silly way. I perfectly understand your dislike for Mat as you explained it to me when I first came on the boards(and I thought you were a dude). It made sense then and it still makes sense.

I do like him because I can look past his faults and to the fact that his chapters were huge high points in books 9 and 10 compared to the rest. his character faults don't impact me in a personal way so it is easy for me to like his bluster and charm.

but I totally respect your dislike of him.

fionwe1987
12-10-2015, 11:23 AM
I don't hate Mat. Probably because under RJ, he was genuinely funny to read about. But I do find him annoying. In real life, I'd never be able to hold back for long before the desire to smack him on the head takes over.

connabard
12-10-2015, 11:42 AM
I don't hate Mat. Probably because under RJ, he was genuinely funny to read about. But I do find him annoying. In real life, I'd never be able to hold back for long before the desire to smack him on the head takes over.

I feel largely the same way... but I still dislike Mat. He is fun to read and his chapters are great but he's still a little shit and IIRC (it's been since the realse of tGS that i've re-read) doesn't really get a lot of character growth besides accepting his generaling skills after like 8 books

Kimon
12-10-2015, 03:38 PM
Name one time that Han used his superpower to take money off people while whining about how unfair life is.

Indiana Jones says he's an archaeologist and destroys EVERY site he enters. Without keeping any records of it. He's just a looter, not an archaeologist. Besides, just because someone hates Nazis does not make them a good person (or good at their job). I mean, loving the Nazi ideology definitely makes one a bad person but hating it does not make one a good person.

http://www.ablogabouthistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/jones.jpg

Indiana Jones reminds me a bit of a romanticized version of Scliemann and Evans. Admittedly, his idea of archaeology would have fit better in the late 19th and very early 20th - basically when Schliemann was active, bulldozing his ways through layers of Troy with reckless abandon to get the right age-stratum, or treasure hunting in Mycenae. You know, the good old days when archaeology was little more than treasure hunting of the Lord Elgin sort, and without which the Louvre would be mostly empty, and the the British Museum completely so.

yks 6nnetu hing
12-11-2015, 12:46 AM
Indiana Jones reminds me a bit of a romanticized version of Scliemann and Evans. Admittedly, his idea of archaeology would have fit better in the late 19th and very early 20th - basically when Schliemann was active, bulldozing his ways through layers of Troy with reckless abandon to get the right age-stratum, or treasure hunting in Mycenae. You know, the good old days when archaeology was little more than treasure hunting of the Lord Elgin sort, and without which the Louvre would be mostly empty, and the the British Museum completely so.

exactly.

GonzoTheGreat
12-11-2015, 03:20 AM
Indiana Jones reminds me a bit of a romanticized version of Scliemann and Evans. Admittedly, his idea of archaeology would have fit better in the late 19th and very early 20th - basically when Schliemann was active, bulldozing his ways through layers of Troy with reckless abandon to get the right age-stratum, or treasure hunting in Mycenae. You know, the good old days when archaeology was little more than treasure hunting of the Lord Elgin sort, and without which the Louvre would be mostly empty, and the the British Museum completely so.
Yeah, but America didn't have anything like the sophistication needed for engaging in archaeology at the time, so Hollywood had to place Indy in the middle 20th century to retain historical accuracy. And, as everyone knows, Hollywood is famous for historical accuracy.

Boli
12-11-2015, 08:32 AM
Keeping in the Mat = Indiana Jones type of character... an interesting tibit is in the "young Indiana Jones chronicles (canon as far as indy lore is concerned) Old man indy is wearing a patch as he lost an eye.

just saying... ;)

yks 6nnetu hing
12-11-2015, 08:53 AM
Keeping in the Mat = Indiana Jones type of character... an interesting tibit is in the "young Indiana Jones chronicles (canon as far as indy lore is concerned) Old man indy is wearing a patch as he lost an eye.

just saying... ;)

Indy also has an irrational fear of snakes. The movies never mention foxes though (that I can remember)

Figbiscuit
12-14-2015, 09:34 AM
I feel largely the same way... but I still dislike Mat. He is fun to read and his chapters are great but he's still a little shit and IIRC (it's been since the realse of tGS that i've re-read) doesn't really get a lot of character growth besides accepting his generaling skills after like 8 books

I'm just about at the end of Crown of Swords and he's developing a small sense of responsibility. I'd say this book has contained his largest character growth so far.

I always quite liked Mat in a non-involved kind of way - like, he'd be a total pain in the arse to be around but I'd totally fall for his charms.