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Kimon
11-13-2015, 05:11 PM
Reports seem to be changing quickly, but 26 dead in multiple attacks, with multiple shooters, and dozens more held hostage.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34814203

Rand al'Fain
11-13-2015, 08:28 PM
Up to 140. Many of them were trapped in a theater with some of the gunmen.
http://news.yahoo.com/live-blog-fatalities-reported-after-explosion-shootout-in-paris-214128710.html?nf=1

Kimon
11-13-2015, 08:35 PM
Up to 140. Many of them were trapped in a theater with some of the gunmen.
http://news.yahoo.com/live-blog-fatalities-reported-after-explosion-shootout-in-paris-214128710.html?nf=1

Al Jazeera right now, I'm still watching the news, is reporting 111 dead, and 93 injured. The numbers keep changing, though, and there is still a state of emergency across France, with all the borders closed, because some of the attackers are still on the loose.

Khoram
11-13-2015, 10:01 PM
I'm seeing 112 dead at the Bataclan concert hall, with at least 153 dead so far. This is CNN reporting.

Frenzy
11-13-2015, 10:30 PM
One of my friends was in Paris for a conference near where the attacks took place & nobody's heard from her yet. :/

Daekyras
11-14-2015, 05:43 AM
One of my friends was in Paris for a conference near where the attacks took place & nobody's heard from her yet. :/

Fingers crossed for good news Frenzy.

My brother was over in paris but far, far away from the trouble.

SomeOneElse
11-14-2015, 11:01 AM
Wondering if Charlie Hebdo is going to release caricatures featuring bodies of those who died during these attacks.

Kimon
11-14-2015, 11:36 AM
Wondering if Charlie Hebdo is going to release caricatures featuring bodies of those who died during these attacks.

Regardless of what you thought of the artwork of Charlie Hebdo in the past, this is an inappropriate comment.

Daekyras
11-14-2015, 12:17 PM
Regardless of what you thought of the artwork of Charlie Hebdo in the past, this is an inappropriate comment.

100% agree with you Kimon.

Southpaw2012
11-14-2015, 12:56 PM
So very sad. I have a few French friends from Paris, but thankfully they have been accounted for. At least one of the attackers entered as a refugee, so hopefully this wakes Europe up to the fact that contrary to what the media wants to portray, the refugees aren't all young women and children looking for help. Many are coming for the wrong reasons and there needs to be a better system of figuring out who needs help and who is there to destroy. You can't just allow everyone in, because first and foremost you must take care of your people. This refugee crisis, in my opinion, will be the end of Europe as we know it if a better system is not set up. It's time to take the war to the Islamists and send them back to hell. Muslims are generally peaceful people, but Islam is not. Our president loves to preach about how Islam is a religion of peace, but he clearly has not studied the Quran and what Muhammad was all about. ISIS follows strict Quran teachings of Muhammad and until we can admit what is going on, we cannot win.

To all the French folks on here, we have your back!

Kimon
11-14-2015, 01:15 PM
So very sad. I have a few French friends from Paris, but thankfully they have been accounted for. At least one of the attackers entered as a refugee, so hopefully this wakes Europe up to the fact that contrary to what the media wants to portray, the refugees aren't all young women and children looking for help. Many are coming for the wrong reasons and there needs to be a better system of figuring out who needs help and who is there to destroy. You can't just allow everyone in, because first and foremost you must take care of your people. This refugee crisis, in my opinion, will be the end of Europe as we know it if a better system is not set up. It's time to take the war to the Islamists and send them back to hell. Muslims are generally peaceful people, but Islam is not. Our president loves to preach about how Islam is a religion of peace, but he clearly has not studied the Quran and what Muhammad was all about. ISIS follows strict Quran teachings of Muhammad and until we can admit what is going on, we cannot win.

To all the French folks on here, we have your back!

You realize that Muslim isn't an ethnicity right, it is a religious designation - like Christian. I'm not sure where you're hearing that one of them was a refugee, but a source for that would help in verification. As for taking the fight to then, make no mistake, that's what they want.

SomeOneElse
11-14-2015, 01:27 PM
Regardless of what you thought of the artwork of Charlie Hebdo in the past, this is an inappropriate comment.
When CH published pictures mocking about victims of plane crash in northern sinai they've stated that morality and alike things mean nothing for them. All I say is that I just would like to see if they were serious or not.so hopefully this wakes Europe up to the fact that contrary to what the media wants to portray, the refugees aren't all young women and children looking for help.

Whenever I see such reports it is clear 70-80% of them are young guys (20-25).

Daekyras
11-14-2015, 01:49 PM
So very sad. I have a few French friends from Paris, but thankfully they have been accounted for. At least one of the attackers entered as a refugee, so hopefully this wakes Europe up to the fact that contrary to what the media wants to portray, the refugees aren't all young women and children looking for help. Many are coming for the wrong reasons and there needs to be a better system of figuring out who needs help and who is there to destroy. You can't just allow everyone in, because first and foremost you must take care of your people. This refugee crisis, in my opinion, will be the end of Europe as we know it if a better system is not set up. It's time to take the war to the Islamists and send them back to hell. Muslims are generally peaceful people, but Islam is not. Our president loves to preach about how Islam is a religion of peace, but he clearly has not studied the Quran and what Muhammad was all about. ISIS follows strict Quran teachings of Muhammad and until we can admit what is going on, we cannot win.

To all the French folks on here, we have your back!

Normally I defend you south, and i think you get a hard time on here. But that is a pile of horseshit.

Now is not the time. In fact- never is the time for that.

Muslims as a race (which you seem to think they are) did not carry out this atrocity. The people who did it were Muslims. There is a huge difference.

France and it's people have taken a major blow today. Let's all just mourn for them.

Davian93
11-14-2015, 01:56 PM
Utterly tragic.

The French response will be extreme I'd imagine. Hollande seemed quite determined during his most recent press conference.

Davian93
11-14-2015, 01:57 PM
So very sad. I have a few French friends from Paris, but thankfully they have been accounted for. At least one of the attackers entered as a refugee, so hopefully this wakes Europe up to the fact that contrary to what the media wants to portray, the refugees aren't all young women and children looking for help. Many are coming for the wrong reasons and there needs to be a better system of figuring out who needs help and who is there to destroy. You can't just allow everyone in, because first and foremost you must take care of your people. This refugee crisis, in my opinion, will be the end of Europe as we know it if a better system is not set up. It's time to take the war to the Islamists and send them back to hell. Muslims are generally peaceful people, but Islam is not. Our president loves to preach about how Islam is a religion of peace, but he clearly has not studied the Quran and what Muhammad was all about. ISIS follows strict Quran teachings of Muhammad and until we can admit what is going on, we cannot win.

To all the French folks on here, we have your back!

FWIW, early indications have several of the attackers being French Nationals...and not refugees.

Kimon
11-14-2015, 02:25 PM
FWIW, early indications have several of the attackers being French Nationals...and not refugees.

This is the most recent description I can find.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/14/syrian-greece-refugee-paris-attacks-killers

Islamic State on Saturday claimed responsibility for the atrocities, which the French president, François Hollande, denounced as an “act of war” that must be countered “mercilessly”.

The terror attacks were France’s deadliest since the second world war and the worst witnessed in Europe since the 2004 Madrid railway bombings.

Analysis Paris attacks: what we know so far
Gun attacks and suicide bombings across city that killed more than 120 people described by French president as ‘act of war’
Read more
As police worked to identify the eight militants, all of whom died in the attacks, it emerged that at least one of the fighters, identified by his fingerprints, was a French national with known links to Islamist networks from the southern Paris suburb of Courcoronnes.

Investigators also told French media a Syrian passport, belonging to a man born in 1970, and an Egyptian passport had been found lying close by the bodies of two other jihadis, both of whom blew themselves up in the course of their attacks.

I didn't mean to imply that I was denying the possibility, only that it Southpaw was going to blame refugees, that he should at least back up the accusation. And, it must be noted, one amongst thousands should not overwhelm the undeniable fact that the refugee crisis is a legitimate concern that should be addressed as humanely as possible, but also that ISIS certainly had two purposes at least in mind here - eliciting fear and anger in France, and eliciting fear and anger towards the refugees.

Davian93
11-14-2015, 02:29 PM
So the French national and the Egyptian passport guy are clearly not Syrian refugees...the Syrian could be of course.

My sole point being that we shouldn't just condemn the refugees for this attack when it was likely something else.

Frenzy
11-14-2015, 05:31 PM
Love thy neighbor at it's finest right there, folks.



(Oh, and my friend is fine. She was within a few miles of the attacks, but she wasn't impacted. She's already out & back home in Israel.)

Davian93
11-14-2015, 07:01 PM
I think I'm saddest because Paris, the loveliest city in the world IMHO, will likely never be the same. The French and Parisians do not deserve this sort of violence.

I also think this attack will be the beginning of the end for ISIS and it will finally get the entire EU moving.

Khoram
11-14-2015, 10:42 PM
Love thy neighbor at it's finest right there, folks.



(Oh, and my friend is fine. She was within a few miles of the attacks, but she wasn't impacted. She's already out & back home in Israel.)

That's good news. Glad to hear your friend is safe, Frenzy. :)

Mort
11-15-2015, 04:57 AM
Terrorist attack in Beirut killing 40+ people that went largely unnoticed by the world and media the day before the Paris attacks.

http://mic.com/articles/128551/terrorist-suicide-bombing-attack-on-beirut-lebanon-kills-43-and-injures-hundreds#.WY8BxFUEl

I don't know why exactly Paris affects me more, but it does. Closer to home I guess.

It is interesting about the whole "Why can't I mourn Beirut with a new profile pic on Facebook" argument". But maybe also too soon for anything other than mourning right now.

Terez
11-15-2015, 07:25 AM
Terrorist attack in Beirut killing 40+ people that went largely unnoticed by the world and media the day before the Paris attacks.

http://mic.com/articles/128551/terrorist-suicide-bombing-attack-on-beirut-lebanon-kills-43-and-injures-hundreds#.WY8BxFUEl

I don't know why exactly Paris affects me more, but it does. Closer to home I guess.
It's not just that. This kind of violence in Lebanon seems ordinary from a "western" perspective; in Paris it's way out of the ordinary, far from war-torn Syria, even far from war-torn Ukraine. Of course, it hasn't been so long since Western Europe was also war-torn, but the experience was terrible enough that you have managed to refrain from warring with each other for decades. Now you just war with lesser countries (usually behind us, though in Europe there is of course a lot of variation as to how often and how justifiably), and in many cases we've minimized the percentage of our populations that can be expected to serve. (Sweden is like Israel on that, right? All able-bodied men serve for a short time?)

This kind of terrorism (Paris, 9/11, etc.) is about bringing the violence home to people who don't have to live with it on a daily basis, and that is why it shocks us. I'm not saying it's justified, and I doubt their ranks are teeming with thoughtful philosophers, but this is how they recruit people. I'm sure they get all types: boys who want to be powerful, young men who want an excuse to kill someone, devout believers who are swayed by dogma, scarred boys who have lost someone to "western" intervention, scared boys who joined to save themselves or their families.

Now there is a flood of mostly young men, the vast majority fleeing conscription or death at the hands of these same tyrants, knocking on the doors of peace, and we can't decide whether to help them or turn them away in fear of the few who no doubt came for revenge rather than refuge. It's all well and good to say we should do better at telling one from the other, but it's easier said than done. At what point to you declare someone past the point of no return? And when you send him back where he came from, does he become a totem of western intolerance and a tool for recruitment?

Kimon
11-15-2015, 10:13 AM
It's not just that. This kind of violence in Lebanon seems ordinary from a "western" perspective; in Paris it's way out of the ordinary, far from war-torn Syria, even far from war-torn Ukraine.

I think it's simpler than this, Terez. Europe will always feel personal for us in a way that nowhere else (well, and here and Canada obviously, certainly not anywhere else in our own hemisphere even) ever will. Massacres happen elsewhere - Africa, Turkey, Asia - not our problem. Massacres happen in Europe? War. There have been a lot of Kosovo like situations around the world even since Kosovo happened. No one ever wanted to intervene in Rwanda. This is also why it felt so stupid when the Younger Bush created the Department of Homeland Security. America isn't the homeland - England is. We are just the ungrateful brats who threw a tantrum when mom and dad told us we had to help in paying them back for causing the French and Indian War.

That's not to say that those other like-events aren't horrific and tragic. But they feel like they happen to a stranger. It happening to France feels like someone just sucker punched our sister.

Terez
11-15-2015, 11:02 AM
I think it's simpler than this, Terez. Europe will always feel personal for us in a way that nowhere else (well, and here and Canada obviously, certainly not anywhere else in our own hemisphere even) ever will. Massacres happen elsewhere - Africa, Turkey, Asia - not our problem.
I think a similar attack in Tokyo, Sydney, or Johannesburg would get a similar reaction. The "close to home" aspect is a factor, but not the only one.

Mort
11-15-2015, 11:13 AM
It's not just that. This kind of violence in Lebanon seems ordinary from a "western" perspective; in Paris it's way out of the ordinary, far from war-torn Syria, even far from war-torn Ukraine. Of course, it hasn't been so long since Western Europe was also war-torn, but the experience was terrible enough that you have managed to refrain from warring with each other for decades. Now you just war with lesser countries (usually behind us, though in Europe there is of course a lot of variation as to how often and how justifiably), and in many cases we've minimized the percentage of our populations that can be expected to serve. (Sweden is like Israel on that, right? All able-bodied men serve for a short time?)


It used to be all able bodied men (and women who wanted to), but that was 20-25 years ago. Today very few serve at all. Few are interested and not all of those few interested actually gets to.

For the last few years there has been this media frenzy (no pun intended Frenzy!) around the fact that our highest ranking officer (excluding the King that is) said Sweden could only hold off an invasion for a week. Some people shat the proverbial brick, hearing that. Most people, I think, couldn't care less. Invasion isn't on many peoples's minds. (If troubles is brewing, we throw Finland on them and run for the hills. Sorry Finns, has to be done!)



Now there is a flood of mostly young men, the vast majority fleeing conscription or death at the hands of these same tyrants, knocking on the doors of peace, and we can't decide whether to help them or turn them away in fear of the few who no doubt came for revenge rather than refuge. It's all well and good to say we should do better at telling one from the other, but it's easier said than done. At what point to you declare someone past the point of no return? And when you send him back where he came from, does he become a totem of western intolerance and a tool for recruitment?


Anti-immigration people have thrown out the excuse that because terrorists might come through with other refugees, or might even have happened in the case of the Paris attacks, all intake of refugees should stop.
Which is just plain wrong. We can't turn away thousands of people because a few might be utter scum. That's what the terrorists want.
Just like we can't let our freedoms be swept away with increased mass-surveillance in hopes of stopping these kinds of attacks. Terrorists of this caliber will only find new ways to circumvent any surveillance measures put up and the people will be stuck with a system that actively spies on it's people. It's all security theater.

Kimon
11-15-2015, 11:29 AM
I think a similar attack in Tokyo, Sydney, or Johannesburg would get a similar reaction. The "close to home" aspect is a factor, but not the only one.

Sydney and Tokyo yes. Johannesburg? I don't think so. An attack in South Africa would be a big story, but more along the lines of an attack in Kenya, which...well see Frenzy's recent thread.

Terez
11-15-2015, 11:34 AM
Sydney and Tokyo yes. Johannesburg? I don't think so. An attack in South Africa would be a big story, but more along the lines of an attack in Kenya, which...well see Frenzy's recent thread.
Kenya is a frequent target of terrorist attacks. They're in the Al-Shabaab region. South Africa, not so much.

The Unreasoner
11-15-2015, 11:47 AM
Tokyo, Seoul, Hong Kong, even Sao Paolo might elicit strong feelings of solidarity. But, strange as it seems, I doubt Moscow or Beijing would.

Why aren't any of the recent attacks in America? I'm sure the NSA would like the credit, but I'm not sure they earned it. I haven't seen any info supporting that claim. Is it just the oceans?

And to be fair to Frenzy, I didn't really remember Kenya originally either; though I did remember after the President went to Kenya and everyone started talking about it again. Even then, I only remembered it enough to say 'fuck...again?!' when I saw the thread. I didn't remember enough to realize the story was an old one when reading it.

Terez
11-15-2015, 11:58 AM
Why aren't any of the recent attacks in America?
I have read that the real goal of ISIS is to bring about Armageddon. We're already neck-deep in the war, so maybe they want to draw Europe in deeper to raise the stakes. But it might just be convenience.

Also, the FBI does not do a bad job of preventing attacks; you don't usually hear about that stuff on national news, but there have been stories in local news about terrorist cells being uncovered before they had a chance to do anything, and in MS recently there was a couple, young boy and girl, who were planning on going to join ISIS and got stopped at the airport. That made national news (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/15/us/disbelief-in-mississippi-at-how-far-isis-message-can-travel.html) but it's not like it was a big story.

Eventually, someone's plan will slip through the cracks and we'll have another attack.

Kimon
11-15-2015, 12:00 PM
Why aren't any of the recent attacks in America? I'm sure the NSA would like the credit, but I'm not sure they earned it. I haven't seen any info supporting that claim. Is it just the oceans?


Part of it is luck, part of it is ease of access. But part is also that France is naturally vulnerable. They have a large Muslim population, and one that is somewhat disgruntled by French domestic policies that at times seem hostile to their religion, albeit are more just hostile to all religions. Charlie Hebdo, unfortunately, has also drawn the ire of terrorist propaganda.

As for your mention of our possible response to attacks on the Russians. That terrorist attack on the Russian plane clearly didn't elicit anywhere near this level of outrage here. But then, we all were doubtless expecting Russia to start seeing a wave of attacks because of their recent entry into Syria. Attacking France by contrast seems more a puerile temper tantrum over harmless cartoons.

SomeOneElse
11-15-2015, 01:07 PM
I don't know why exactly Paris affects me more, but it does. Closer to home I guess.
I think a similar attack in Tokyo, Sydney, or Johannesburg would get a similar reaction. The "close to home" aspect is a factor, but not the only one.
Tokyo, Seoul, Hong Kong, even Sao Paolo might elicit strong feelings of solidarity. But, strange as it seems, I doubt Moscow or Beijing would.
It's just that some people are of "first sort" while others are of "second". Everyone nowadays tries to avoid this type of thinking, but it is still around no matter do we like to admit it or not.

Kimon
11-15-2015, 01:15 PM
It's just that some people are of "first sort" while others are of "second". Everyone nowadays tries to avoid this type of thinking, but it is still around no matter do we like to admit it or not.

It's tribalism. One set of my great-grandparents lived in the suburbs just north of Paris (St Denis), the rest came from England and Germany. This isn't even an issue of trying to avoid "this type of thinking". An attack that hit your family is obviously going to be more personal than one that hits your neighbors. One that hits your friend, more than one that hits a stranger. It's simply human nature. Trying to deny that would be disingenuous.

SomeOneElse
11-15-2015, 01:21 PM
It's tribalism. One set of my great-grandparents lived in the suburbs just north of Paris (St Denis), the rest came from England and Germany. This isn't even an issue of trying to avoid "this type of thinking". An attack that hit your family is obviously going to be more personal than one that hits your neighbors. One that hits your friend, more than one that hits a stranger. It's simply human nature. Trying to deny that would be disingenuous.
It could be true and most likely this is the case with you, but here (in Russia) people are also way more concerned about these attacks than about ones in Lebanon or Kenya.

Kimon
11-15-2015, 01:25 PM
It could be true and most likely this is the case with you, but here (in Russia) people are also way more concerned about these attacks than about ones in Lebanon or Kenya.

Same phenomenon. My basic point however more aptly applies to that terrorist attack on your airliner. That would obviously hit home far more for you than it would for me. That's not to say that I don't see it as tragic, and awful, but it's likely to be more visceral for you.

Daekyras
11-15-2015, 02:44 PM
Terrorist attack in Beirut killing 40+ people that went largely unnoticed by the world and media the day before the Paris attacks.

http://mic.com/articles/128551/terrorist-suicide-bombing-attack-on-beirut-lebanon-kills-43-and-injures-hundreds#.WY8BxFUEl

I don't know why exactly Paris affects me more, but it does. Closer to home I guess.

It is interesting about the whole "Why can't I mourn Beirut with a new profile pic on Facebook" argument". But maybe also too soon for anything other than mourning right now.

For most people I think it's a very simple formula.

question- can I point to this place on the map/globe? If yes, I mourn. If not, I don't.

That sounds harsh but I think internally that is what is happening.

For example- ireland gave over a couple of mins today to silence in honour of the French dead. We did not do the same for Lebanon despite its relative proximity to here and the fact that it is the only place in the world our own soldiers are actively deployed.

why? Because everyone knows where paris is. The saying familiarity breeds contempt could also be changed to "familiarity breeds affection".

Kimon
11-15-2015, 03:25 PM
For most people I think it's a very simple formula.

question- can I point to this place on the map/globe? If yes, I mourn. If not, I don't.

That sounds harsh but I think internally that is what is happening.

For example- ireland gave over a couple of mins today to silence in honour of the French dead. We did not do the same for Lebanon despite its relative proximity to here and the fact that it is the only place in the world our own soldiers are actively deployed.

why? Because everyone knows where paris is. The saying familiarity breeds contempt could also be changed to "familiarity breeds affection".

I have the students do map assignments sometimes of the Roman Empire, hoping to familiarize them with both where the major provinces and cities were, and what those correspond to now. Most of them, unsurprisingly, start with little knowledge of geography. Sometimes alarmingly so. I occasionally have to explain what is water and what is land when I give them a blank map...

I have to admit, that I don't give a lot of emphasis to Phoenicia in those lessons, except in AP Latin, when talking about Dido's flight from Tyre.

Rand al'Fain
11-15-2015, 06:01 PM
I have the students do map assignments sometimes of the Roman Empire, hoping to familiarize them with both where the major provinces and cities were, and what those correspond to now. Most of them, unsurprisingly, start with little knowledge of geography. Sometimes alarmingly so. I occasionally have to explain what is water and what is land when I give them a blank map...

I have to admit, that I don't give a lot of emphasis to Phoenicia in those lessons, except in AP Latin, when talking about Dido's flight from Tyre.

Times like this, games like Rome Total War and Medieval Total War come in hand.

Kimon
11-15-2015, 06:24 PM
Times like this, games like Rome Total War and Medieval Total War come in hand.

Did anyone else play "Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego?" as a kid? Heck, even board games like Risk and Axis vs Allies helped teach some geography.

Weird Harold
11-15-2015, 07:13 PM
Did anyone else play "Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego?" as a kid?

Nope, never played it as a kid. Played it a lot WITH my kids, but there were no computers to play it on when I was a kid. :D

Rand al'Fain
11-15-2015, 08:33 PM
Did anyone else play "Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego?" as a kid? Heck, even board games like Risk and Axis vs Allies helped teach some geography.

RISK is a good one too.

Though my luck with the dice has always sucked hard.

Terez
11-15-2015, 09:12 PM
Did anyone else play "Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego?" as a kid?
I never knew it existed when I was a kid.

yks 6nnetu hing
11-16-2015, 02:28 AM
Now there is a flood of mostly young men, the vast majority fleeing conscription or death at the hands of these same tyrants, knocking on the doors of peace, and we can't decide whether to help them or turn them away in fear of the few who no doubt came for revenge rather than refuge. It's all well and good to say we should do better at telling one from the other, but it's easier said than done. At what point to you declare someone past the point of no return? And when you send him back where he came from, does he become a totem of western intolerance and a tool for recruitment?

this is really well put. It's easy to dehumanize and lump people together based on the lowest common denominator, and say that "if this person does this and is from there, then all people from there do this". I mean, it's no secret that I despise Putin and everything the Russian state has done over the past 15 years or so; but when the news came of two (!!!) crashed planes in a week, I was still sad for the Russian people. The mothers and fathers and friends who lost their loved ones for no good reason have nothing to do with my feelings for their government. I think this is an important distinction to make, because for terrorists, there is no distinction; the people = the government. You hate the actions of one so you automatically hate the other, and you blow up the other because it's the same as the one.

There was a really powerful post on FB by an Iraqi refugee in the Netherlands - her family fled Iraq well over a decade ago when she was a toddler, back home they had good jobs, cars, family, security and happiness. Nobody leaves these things behind lightly. Now, she's fully integrated, in Uni, has a job on the side and paying her taxes and generally contributing to the society. Oh, and yes, they're Iraqi. But they're not Muslims. Her family is Christian and she is (now) and atheist. But it gets so very tiring having to explain this over and over and over again, constantly under attack, though thankfully most of the time verbal.

I mean, not that it matters much how or if people pray, imho. What matters is that they're decent people. These are the stories of people that I hope we help when we help refugees. The stories of struggle and sadness and hardship, yes. But also stories where things DO get better.

it is my opinion that war makes it only worse. The only thing that makes things better is comfort. I mean this in the sense of property and safety and knowledge that the rule of law applies for all in the same manner. People like their lives to be comfortable. So, if we can somehow spread the Western level of general comfort to the areas that are now so very uncomfortable, I think that would help. For those who haven't figured it out yet, war destroys things. Not just the people who die, be they military or civilian, but their homes, their families, their dreams and hopes and belief that things will get better.

But, I realize we don't live in a world where this might be possible. Not in the near future, anyways :(

Terez
11-16-2015, 03:25 AM
Humans of New York, a Facebook page that tells the stories of random people, did a series on the refugees last month, and all of the stories they shared were powerful, but this story (https://www.facebook.com/humansofnewyork/photos/pb.102099916530784.-2207520000.1447662131./1101097579964341/) probably got me the most.

When I joined the Syrian army, there was no war yet. I just wanted to serve my country. But now everyone is forced to do horrible things. One time we were marching and a single bullet came from a village. Our commander told us to go into each house, one by one, and kill everyone inside. The village was a Sunni village, so our commander ordered all the Sunni soldiers to lead the attack. Anyone who disobeyed would be killed themselves. We did our best to aim over the heads of the people who were running away, but forty people were killed. A few nights later I fled in the middle of the night.
(Lesvos, Greece)
This is why the situation is so bad in Syria; there's no resistance worth fighting for.

DahLliA
11-16-2015, 07:09 AM
Times like this, games like Rome Total War and Medieval Total War come in hand.

Europa Universalis. I kid you not, that game has taught me more about geography and old-timey politics than 18 years of school.

OT: what's most worrying about the attack in Paris is what our politicians will do in response.

Which will most likely do two things:
1. fuck over more of our rights (more surveillance, more spying on everyone, etc)
2. create more terrorists (both more radical muslims and more crazies on the far right)

I'm all for closing off the European borders, but not because I think many or most of the people coming are terrorists, but because I know that a big (and growing) part of us Europeans think that.

It's just human nature, and it wont listen to reason. So at some point people need to accept the fact that most people are stupid bigots, and make decisions based on that, and not the utopian fantasy where everyone is as smart and nice as they should be.

yks 6nnetu hing
11-16-2015, 07:18 AM
Godwin

something something


(I saw an illustration this weekend of a Nazi thanking a terrorist for a job finished. I can't find it again though)

Terez
11-16-2015, 08:28 AM
Speaking of Godwin, a post from Malazan (and South Africa):

In my Jewish school we grew up learning about the holocaust. The point in particular that is relevant here is that we learnt how hard it was for Jews to escape Germany before the war and how hard it was for European Jewry in particular to escape nazi europe in general pre, during and post war. The British essentially cut off immigration to mandate Palestine (a 360 of previous policy) to sure up allies in the middle east. America and its statue of liberty refused more than a handful. One place that was welcoming was south america which accounts for what might seem its strangely large Jewish population. In any event we learnt how horrendous the world could be that they could deny a person refugee status even though it meant their death. Seemed so clear cut. A moral outrage. What I find amazing is that here I am a few years later, and while Syrian refugees are not exactly flooding into South Africa you do catch yourself thinking; employment is over 30%, we have our own problems, we have a drought etc etc Let them go elsewhere. Protect yourself and your interests first. It seems so obviously clear to you. Your not doing anything wrong. Its sound economical reality. For me its been quite an eye opener.

Every country must have its similar litany. In the meantime people are dying
I have seen this guy get into some serious flamewars with Muslim members, by the way. He has never struck me as a liberal Jew.

Kimon
11-16-2015, 05:02 PM
Don't think we're likely to see French troops on the ground in Syria or Iraq, but they have been quite active...

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34836439

In addition to the airstrikes on Raqqa, whose significance is, in all honesty, mostly symbolic, they have also done the following:

He said he would table a bill to extend the state of emergency declared after the attacks for three months and would suggest changes to the constitution.

Making it easier to strip dual nationals of their French citizenship if they are convicted of a terrorist offence, as long as this did not render them stateless
Speeding up the deportation of foreigners who pose "a particularly grave threat to the security of the nation"

In the early hours of Monday, a total of 23 people were arrested, 104 put under house arrest, and dozens of weapons seized in more than 168 raids on suspected Islamist militants across France.

One also cannot help but be curious as to just how well Marine Le Pen's Front National does in the upcoming elections.

Kimon
11-16-2015, 09:33 PM
This also, unfortunately, shouldn't surprise anyone...

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2015/11/16/alabama-refuses-syrian-refugees-paris-terror-attack/75857924/

At least 23 governors, expressing fears about terrorism, are taking action — through executive order, a request to federal officials or some other means — to prevent Syrian refugees from settling in their states.

Their stand in the name of public safety began Sunday and escalated quickly Monday, igniting a debate over whether states even have the power to refuse people based on their nationality.

The governors — in Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Maine, Mississippi, Massachusetts, Nebraska, New Hampshire, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas and Wisconsin — were reacting to Friday’s attacks in Paris and the possibility that Syrian refugees seeking resettlement in the United States might include people with terrorist ties.

Twenty-two of the 23 governors are Republican.

Davian93
11-16-2015, 09:43 PM
Party of Bigotry and Xenophobia strikes again.

Terez
11-16-2015, 09:46 PM
MS social media is on fire with this shit. Lots of people who usually don't even talk about politics are chiming in.

Davian93
11-16-2015, 09:49 PM
MS social media is on fire with this shit. Lots of people who usually don't even talk about politics are chiming in.

I'm quite proud that my Governor is one of the ones saying "Yes, we'll take refugees" Because FU, you filthy bigots. Go shove your racism, xenophobia, and hatred up your asses.

Rand al'Fain
11-16-2015, 10:35 PM
I'm quite proud that my Governor is one of the ones saying "Yes, we'll take refugees" Because FU, you filthy bigots. Go shove your racism, xenophobia, and hatred up your asses.

Same here, though I was a bit apprehensive until the list came out, as Wyoming is one of the more conservative states.

GonzoTheGreat
11-17-2015, 04:02 AM
This also, unfortunately, shouldn't surprise anyone...

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2015/11/16/alabama-refuses-syrian-refugees-paris-terror-attack/75857924/Doesn't really surprise me that Texas is on this official Cowards List. Mind you, there are plenty of Dutch politicians who would also happily sign such an initiative.

SomeOneElse
11-17-2015, 09:59 AM
Wondering if Charlie Hebdo is going to release caricatures featuring bodies of those who died during these attacks.

Charlie Hebdo, the French magazine that lost 11 staff members when attacked in January, has released a defiant message following the latest attack on Paris.

The widely shared image, released ahead of the satirical magazine’s publication tomorrow, reads: “They have the weapons. F*** them, we have the champagne.”
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUAeaO0UsAA8f2m.png

GonzoTheGreat
11-17-2015, 10:26 AM
So, Charlie Hebdo is honest, ISIS is honest, but which of those two do you root for, whose vision would you prefer to conquer the world?

SomeOneElse
11-17-2015, 01:00 PM
So, Charlie Hebdo is honest, ISIS is honest, but which of those two do you root for, whose vision would you prefer to conquer the world?
I don't think such a choice would make any sense, but, just as a side note, I suppose even the wildest islamist organizations (like ISIS) have some respect towards their dead fellows.
The total liberalism in Europe, which lead things like CH to be allowed, is also one of the reasons why so many people already left european countries and now are fighting for ISIS in the middle east.

Davian93
11-17-2015, 02:50 PM
I don't think such a choice would make any sense, but, just as a side note, I suppose even the wildest islamist organizations (like ISIS) have some respect towards their dead fellows.
The total liberalism in Europe, which lead things like CH to be allowed, is also one of the reasons why so many people already left european countries and now are fighting for ISIS in the middle east.

One group makes off-color jokes...the other literally burns people to death for fun.

Tough choice there.

SomeOneElse
11-17-2015, 03:31 PM
One group makes off-color jokes...the other literally burns people to death for fun.

Tough choice there.

The question wasn't who succeeded to burn more people or whatever, but "whose vision would you prefer to conquer the world?".
These jokes do not pop up from nowhere, instead, they represent the current ideology of the western world. They are a somewhat radical form of it, just like salafism is a radical form of Islam. I am not comparing jokes and terrorist attacks, but ideologies, both of which, after all, lead to dehumanization and other bad things.

Brita
11-17-2015, 03:58 PM
MS social media is on fire with this shit. Lots of people who usually don't even talk about politics are chiming in.

That's me. I hate spouting off on Facebook about politics or religion, but after much hesitation I joined the fray. I just felt that I needed to add my voice. But tbh, it is discouraging to see so much fear, misinformation and selfishness around this issue.

Daekyras
11-17-2015, 05:58 PM
The question wasn't who succeeded to burn more people or whatever, but "whose vision would you prefer to conquer the world?".
These jokes do not pop up from nowhere, instead, they represent the current ideology of the western world. They are a somewhat radical form of it, just like salafism is a radical form of Islam. I am not comparing jokes and terrorist attacks, but ideologies, both of which, after all, lead to dehumanization and other bad things.

I look at the image you posted and only one thing comes to me. One feeling that is stronger than any other. PRIDE. This is an image of defiance. An image that dares to show the heinous terrorists that the people of France are not bowed by the atrocities carried out against them. That image is the exact opposite of dehumanisation and celebrates th spirit and life of the French people.

When I see that image I, an irish man, feel proud to have a connection with the French people.

But, you can look at it and see whatever you like.

Sukoto
11-21-2015, 02:22 AM
The first two restaurants that were hit, they are on the same block as the apartment building where I rented a room during the summer of 2006. That was my old neighborhood. This whole thing is so weird for me.

Charlie Hebdo is not so uncharacteristic of French people in general. 'Off-color' doesn't mean the same in France as it does in a lot of other places. French people are used to just saying and writing what they want. Hurt feelings? That's not really a thing in France. After 9-11, it didn't take long for Europeans to start making jokes about it. I've never heard anyone in the U.S. make a joke about 9-11. Ever. It doesn't surprise me that Charlie Hebdo would publish something like this.

Davian93
11-22-2015, 11:47 AM
The first two restaurants that were hit, they are on the same block as the apartment building where I rented a room during the summer of 2006. That was my old neighborhood. This whole thing is so weird for me.

Charlie Hebdo is not so uncharacteristic of French people in general. 'Off-color' doesn't mean the same in France as it does in a lot of other places. French people are used to just saying and writing what they want. Hurt feelings? That's not really a thing in France. After 9-11, it didn't take long for Europeans to start making jokes about it. I've never heard anyone in the U.S. make a joke about 9-11. Ever. It doesn't surprise me that Charlie Hebdo would publish something like this.

Yeah...the French mentality in general is pretty awesome. I love the French, France and their entire view on life.

Davian93
11-22-2015, 11:49 AM
That's me. I hate spouting off on Facebook about politics or religion, but after much hesitation I joined the fray. I just felt that I needed to add my voice. But tbh, it is discouraging to see so much fear, misinformation and selfishness around this issue.

Yeah, that's why I'm not on Facebook anymore...I got sick of listening to people I otherwise like spout off with the most awful viewpoints ever. Its easier to love my family, friends, etc without knowing their wacko viewpoints.

GonzoTheGreat
11-22-2015, 11:58 AM
Yeah, that's why I'm not on Facebook anymore...I got sick of listening to people I otherwise like spout off with the most awful viewpoints ever. Its easier to love my family, friends, etc without knowing their wacko viewpoints.
Couldn't you pick family and such without wacko viewpoints?
Seems to me that you planned your current (re-)incarnation rather badly. Should've taken Facebook into account, you know.

Nazbaque
11-22-2015, 01:44 PM
Couldn't you pick family and such without wacko viewpoints?
Seems to me that you planned your current (re-)incarnation rather badly. Should've taken Facebook into account, you know.

It's the preincarnation party. You get so drunk because it's your last chance for close to two decades and the next thing you know is all those last minute formalities should have been done in a clearer mind and you should have opted for remembering the past lives even though it meant you'd have to suffer the rest of the hangover.

Rand al'Fain
11-23-2015, 02:04 AM
Yeah, that's why I'm not on Facebook anymore...I got sick of listening to people I otherwise like spout off with the most awful viewpoints ever. Its easier to love my family, friends, etc without knowing their wacko viewpoints.

Despite having a number of friends and family members currently in the military or retired military, I haven't seen anything actually against Muslims. I hesitate to put "yet" because I want to think better of them. At the same time, I have to wonder about some of them.

Terez
11-23-2015, 02:45 AM
Yeah, that's why I'm not on Facebook anymore...I got sick of listening to people I otherwise like spout off with the most awful viewpoints ever. Its easier to love my family, friends, etc without knowing their wacko viewpoints.
I'm sure they feel the same about me. Well, some of them. Others (like my mom) have actually been shamed into something approaching sanity.

Daekyras
11-23-2015, 09:25 AM
I'm sure they feel the same about me. Well, some of them. Others (like my mom) have actually been shamed into something approaching sanity.

I have a facebook account that I never use. On the very infrequent times I do log on- to see pics of the baby etc- most of the people on it are posting inane stuff. Or linking to funny videos, the kinda stuff that would have filled forwarded emails about ten years ago.

Do many people use it to spout vitriol and hatred/extreme views??

yks 6nnetu hing
11-23-2015, 09:55 AM
I have a facebook account that I never use. On the very infrequent times I do log on- to see pics of the baby etc- most of the people on it are posting inane stuff. Or linking to funny videos, the kinda stuff that would have filled forwarded emails about ten years ago.

Do many people use it to spout vitriol and hatred/extreme views??

yes. I have cousin who's lived in Germany for more than a decade, and she's posting stuff like "go back home"... and I find myself thinking: how are *you* different from *them*? But, on the other hand, I've also found out that my other cousin (um, how's it called in English - my mother's brother's daughter's daughter) who's 13 is displaying impressive maturity and reasoning skills. And, her English is pretty good.

Nazbaque
11-23-2015, 10:07 AM
yes. I have cousin who's lived in Germany for more than a decade, and she's posting stuff like "go back home"... and I find myself thinking: how are *you* different from *them*? But, on the other hand, I've also found out that my other cousin (um, how's it called in English - my mother's brother's daughter's daughter) who's 13 is displaying impressive maturity and reasoning skills. And, her English is pretty good.

Your uncle's daughter is your cousin and her daughter is your cousin once removed. You are also her cousin once removed as you are her mother's cousin. In a sense uncles, aunts, nephews and nieces would be siblings once removed if such a term were used. A grandparent's cousin is a cousin twice removed.

GonzoTheGreat
11-23-2015, 10:54 AM
And if someone is banned from a messageboard, then he is a poster once removed.
If you get banned from Twitter, does that mean that you're a Twat?

Daekyras
11-23-2015, 11:00 AM
Your uncle's daughter is your cousin and her daughter is your cousin once removed. You are also her cousin once removed as you are her mother's cousin. In a sense uncles, aunts, nephews and nieces would be siblings once removed if such a term were used. A grandparent's cousin is a cousin twice removed.

We call the relationship yks describes "2nd cousin".

Or as the people in Mayo say- "fair game".

Its like our Alabama. Or Latvia.

Nazbaque
11-23-2015, 11:26 AM
We call the relationship yks describes "2nd cousin".

Or as the people in Mayo say- "fair game".

Its like our Alabama. Or Latvia.
I thought a second cousin is a child of a parent's cousin. You share greatgrandparents but not grandparents. Is it different for Irish or is one of us just confused?

And if someone is banned from a messageboard, then he is a poster once removed.
If you get banned from Twitter, does that mean that you're a Twat?
I think that's a tit.

Davian93
11-23-2015, 11:44 AM
Here's a handy reference chart:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/b7/91/8b/b7918ba5568a9c2d666818820ed0e512.jpg

Daekyras
11-23-2015, 01:22 PM
Here's a handy reference chart:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/b7/91/8b/b7918ba5568a9c2d666818820ed0e512.jpg

That backs up Naz and is very helpful.

But, colloquially, in ireland 2nd cousin and 1st cousins once removed are reversed.

To put it in simple terms- 2nd cousins is considered a closer relation than 1st cousin once removed.

2nd cousins are very far out relations in that list. Great grandchild to great grand child.

yks 6nnetu hing
11-24-2015, 01:57 AM
That backs up Naz and is very helpful.

But, colloquially, in ireland 2nd cousin and 1st cousins once removed are reversed.

To put it in simple terms- 2nd cousins is considered a closer relation than 1st cousin once removed.

2nd cousins are very far out relations in that list. Great grandchild to great grand child.

English is weird. In Estonian there's a distinct word for the brother of your mother vs the brother of your father. Or the sister of your mother vs the sister of your mother. Albeit, almost everyone uses the mother-relative words when they mean generally the sibling of your parent. And so it's easy from there, it may be a mouthful but I can actually say "my mother's brother's daughter's daughter" and it will make sense and everyone knows who I'm talking about. It's weird but in this one very specific instance Estonian which has no genders for nouns, adjectives, verbs or even pronouns is more gendered and specific than all Indo-European languages I know.

On a related (ha. ha.) topic, when you want to say you're related to someone but it's too long to explain how, you say they're your "vanaema lehma lellepoeg" (grandmother's cow's father's brother's son)

Davian93
11-24-2015, 08:13 AM
it may be a mouthful but I can actually say "my mother's brother's daughter's daughter"

Or as a Habsburg would say, "Hey sexy, how YOU doin'?"

Daekyras
11-24-2015, 08:27 AM
Or as a Habsburg would say, "Hey sexy, how YOU doin'?"

I refuse to look things up so i have to ask- Habsburg, as in Austrian nobility???

GonzoTheGreat
11-24-2015, 08:37 AM
I refuse to look things up so i have to ask- Habsburg, as in Austrian nobility???
Obviously. After all, the Spanish branch would've used Spanish, not English.

Davian93
11-24-2015, 08:43 AM
I refuse to look things up so i have to ask- Habsburg, as in Austrian nobility???

Austrian/Spanish/Low Countries (they inherited Burgundy for the most part too)...a royal family renowned for their desire to "keep it all in the family" so to speak...even more so than other royal/nobles of their time period.

Led to all sorts of genetic issues and the extinction of both major male lines by the mid-1700s...although the family of course survived through their female line up until the present day...the last pretender to the Austrian throne just died a few years back. I believe he had children as well so the line is still around though he (Otto Habsburg) did renounce all claims he had to any noble/royal titles, etc as part of his conditions to live in Austria IIRC.

Its been a while since I looked at any of that so some of the details might be off. Feel free to correct me, yks (or any other historians).

Kimon
12-06-2015, 02:31 PM
Marine Le Pen's National Front is doing quite alarmingly, if unsurprisingly, well in the aftermath...

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35018849

France's far-right National Front (FN) appears to have made big gains in the first round of regional elections, estimates show.
They showed the FN ahead in at least six of 13 regions in mainland France.
The elections are the first electoral test since last month's Paris attacks, in which 130 people were killed.
The centre-right led by former President Nicolas Sarkozy is expected to win in most regions at the expense of the governing Socialist Party.
Exit polls from Sunday's vote predicted that the FN had won between 27-30% of the vote.
The polls showed Mr Sarkozy's Republicans party in second place followed by President Francois Hollande's governing Socialists.

Davian93
12-06-2015, 07:27 PM
Fascism FOR THE WIN!!!

GonzoTheGreat
12-07-2015, 04:30 AM
Fascism FOR THE WIN!!!
That's how it won the first time too, isn't it?
Have very serious disturbances of law and order, and promise to make that problem go away. A difference is that then they had to make their own troubles, and now they have outsourced that to other groups whose labour costs are lower. But that's just the modern way, not a significant difference.

Frenzy
12-07-2015, 08:52 PM
On a related (ha. ha.) topic, when you want to say you're related to someone but it's too long to explain how, you say they're your "vanaema lehma lellepoeg" (grandmother's cow's father's brother's son)

We use "Father's Brother's Nephew's Cousin's Former Roommate." Ok, only myself and other Mel Brooks fanatics use that...

Khoram
12-07-2015, 10:02 PM
We use "Father's Brother's Nephew's Cousin's Former Roommate." Ok, only myself and other Mel Brooks fanatics use that...

I just keep expanding on it... Roommate's sister's boyfriend's dog sitter. ;)

Daekyras
12-08-2015, 05:16 AM
I just keep expanding on it... Roommate's sister's boyfriend's dog sitter. ;)

...knows a guy who went to school with a girl who's brother in - law spent time in prison with..

Nazbaque
12-08-2015, 06:57 AM
Guys you are overly ellaborate here. The elegant term for this is the bloke in the pub.

Ivhon
12-08-2015, 03:19 PM
I know a guy.... Dont ask questions.

The Unreasoner
12-08-2015, 03:24 PM
Just say they're 'my fiftieth cousin...maybe closer'. It's pretty much always true.

Daekyras
12-08-2015, 04:53 PM
I know a guy.... Dont ask questions.

Yeah. I knew a guy once. Didn't ask questions. You know what happened? World war 2.

P.s. The guy was Hitler.

P.p.s I'm older than I pretend to be. ;)

Davian93
12-09-2015, 08:12 AM
I'm eagerly awaiting for Trump to change his campaign slogan to One People, One Country, One Leader!

Rand al'Fain
12-12-2015, 07:45 PM
I'm eagerly awaiting for Trump to change his campaign slogan to One People, One Country, One Leader!

And to publish his autobiography called "My Struggle".

Khoram
12-12-2015, 07:55 PM
And to publish his autobiography called "My Struggle".

Was Trump ever a failed artist? XD

Ivhon
12-12-2015, 08:46 PM
Was Trump ever a failed artist? XD

Well. Most of his arts of the deal fail...

GonzoTheGreat
12-13-2015, 05:21 AM
Was Trump ever a failed artist? XD
He's an American Idol contestant right now, isn't he?
True, the "failed" bit is somewhat doubtful, so you have part of a point there.

Kimon
12-13-2015, 04:30 PM
The Socialists bowed to pragmatism to keep the crackpots on the sidelines.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35088276