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View Full Version : Star Wars MASSIVE SPOILERS THREAD


Davian93
12-18-2015, 07:41 AM
For those of us that have seen it and would like to discuss it without the need to worry about spoiling it for anyone.


My first thoughts: Absolutely phenomenal. Abrams should have just done SW all along. The new characters are actually interesting, well acted, the dialogue sounds like normal humans instead of Lucas speak. The FX was amazingly well done...no more massive green screen all the time.


Other things:

1. Han's story arc was very well done...saw his death coming a mile away but that was due to the way it was written.

2. They didn't kill off the bad guy...clearly they learned their mistake when they did that with Darth Maul. Also, they didn't name him Darth Ren or Darth Kylo or anything else stupid. Thank god.

3. It wasnt fucking Tatooine...thank you for finally moving to somewhere different, Abrams.

4. I wish Luke would have had some dialogue but it was a natural stopping point. Nice usage of the Skellig Islands there...I've stood in the exact spot they filmed that on Skellig Michael apparently and have a photo of me right there...good stuff.

There's a ton of other stuff obviously but this is just to kick it off.

Go at it.

Khoram
12-18-2015, 08:42 AM
I just loved all the nods to post movies - Leia asking Han when he had actually been helpful, and sing not to mention the Death Star, Han suggesting sending Captain Phasma down a garbage chute into a tag compactor, the trench run...

I loved this movie. I saw Han's death a mile away, too, but it doesn't mean I have to like it. Harrison Ford is one of my favourite actors, so to see one of his characters bite the bullet, or in this case pull a Qui-Gon/Rand and "sheathe the lightsaber" really saddens me. I guess he finally got his wish of killing off Han Solo, though.

I really liked the shots we got from inside X-Wings. Some of them e pretty amazing.


How did they get Luke's old lightsaber back!?

Davian93
12-18-2015, 08:44 AM
How did they get Luke's old lightsaber back!?

Well, as far as canon is concerned now that the EU has been wiped away, it fell down the shaft at Cloud City and then we never see it again. I'd imagine someone picked it up and its been passed around for 30 years till weird eyes got it and kept it.

Speaking of Cloud City...why no Lando??? I wants me some Lando Calrissian damnit!!!


Maybe he can come back in the next movie and wear all of Han's old clothes again since Han won't be needing them anymore.

Khoram
12-18-2015, 08:51 AM
And he'll be offered a job on the Falcon, especially now that Rey looks to be studying with Luke. Chewie is going to need another pilot, so why not Lando?

Oh, and Rey is Luke's daughter. Calling it now.

Another reason for there being no Lando... There can only be one token black guy in the Star Wars movies at a time. Any more, and the universe will implode. :rolleyes:

Davian93
12-18-2015, 10:06 AM
Oh, and Rey is Luke's daughter. Calling it now.

Yeah, I'd be shocked if that wasn't the case too. It was fairly well bludgeoned with foreshadowing.

Davian93
12-18-2015, 10:08 AM
Also, imagine how good the prequels could have been had they basically used Rey's age & storyline in place of pumpkin head Jake Lloyd...

Khoram
12-18-2015, 11:04 AM
She's definitely too old to train as a Jedi. ;)

Daekyras
12-18-2015, 05:54 PM
Yeah, Ineed rage that the Internet wie shocked if that wasn't the case too. It was fairly well bludgeoned with foreshadowing.

I actually hope she isn't his daughter.

Not because I don't think it's foreshadowed (it is, big time) but because chewie, Han and leia make no reference to it or seem to recognise her or make any sort of connection.
And this will lead to so much nerd rage that the Internet would be more insufferable than usual!

Also, glad to see you recognised selling michel dav. As I said before you came over here- it is one of our greatest hidden treasures. It looked so beautiful in those closing shots.

Khoram
12-18-2015, 06:41 PM
I know that there's a whole back story for Jakku, but I wish there had been more of that in the movie. I know that there was a major battle between the Imperials and Rebels not too long after RotJ, but I want to see it. I want more dogfights. More back story.

DahLliA
12-19-2015, 09:52 AM
Gotta say it was better than I feared.

Way better than the prequels.

One thing that annoyed me though was that both Finn and Rey pick up a lightsaber once and then fight on even terms with Kylo who's had at least 10 years of training?

Then again. Kylo is the lamest sith ever (and contrary to Emokin I think we are supposed to think he's lame).

Khoram
12-19-2015, 09:58 AM
I think the thing that was the most jarring to me was when Rey was developing her control over the Force. It just felt so... rushed. Everything was happening so quickly. That was the weakest part of the movie for me. At least you can tell, when both Finn and Rey are using the lightsaber, they are nowhere near as proficient as Kylo Ren is. Especially Finn.

DahLliA
12-19-2015, 04:13 PM
I think the thing that was the most jarring to me was when Rey was developing her control over the Force. It just felt so... rushed. Everything was happening so quickly. That was the weakest part of the movie for me. At least you can tell, when both Finn and Rey are using the lightsaber, they are nowhere near as proficient as Kylo Ren is. Especially Finn.

Agreed, but I find it less jarring that someone can figure out Force powers instantly, than learning to fight with a sword, or even worse, a lightsaber, so fast.

BTW, was the whole "only jedis are strong enough to use lightsabers" and EU thing or is this proof that Finn is force-sensitive too?

The Unreasoner
12-19-2015, 05:30 PM
Agreed, but I find it less jarring that someone can figure out Force powers instantly, than learning to fight with a sword, or even worse, a lightsaber, so fast.

BTW, was the whole "only jedis are strong enough to use lightsabers" and EU thing or is this proof that Finn is force-sensitive too?

Well he was trained in combat. It's possible that his training included some melee-adjacent skills that could let him passably fake it for a little while.

Not sure what you mean by an EU thing, but my friends in America seem convinced he has Jedi potential, without the lightsaber proving anything either way.

ETA: In my mind I thought you were from Denmark. Norway's not in the EU. Are you on vacation somewhere? The specific country is probably more important than EU vs US^Canada when talking about attitudes.

Khoram
12-19-2015, 08:29 PM
EU - Extended Universe.

Or the European Union. Whichever works best. :p

DahLliA
12-20-2015, 03:23 AM
EU - Extended Universe.

Or the European Union. Whichever works best. :p

Extended Universe in this case :p

And it's not even outdated EU canon it seems: http://www.askajedi.com/2010/09/09/ask-a-jedi-can-non-force-users-can-wield-a-light-saber/

Isabel
12-20-2015, 09:22 AM
;)
I just saw the movie today and really liked it.

I also thought that Finn could use the force and that Rey is the daughter of Luke.

ShadowbaneX
12-20-2015, 09:39 AM
A few points, a popular theory is that she is Luke's daughter (or possibly Obi-Wan's grand-daughter...or both). It's also possibly that Luke doesn't know about her, ie mother left before she knew she was pregnant. This could suggest a few years experience, even as a child, which could have helped. Let's also not forget the 'little ones' that Yoda was training. Even a few years of forgotten training could allow for things to happen later.

As for her learning the Jedi Mind Trick, well, that's probably a story she'd heard and just tried it, after counter Kylo's invasion attempt. As an aside? That Storm Trooper? Daniel Craig.

As for Storm Trooper melee combat, well, we did see a Trooper go hand to hand with Finn and the sabre. They want Luke dead, so they're going to be prepared for that as they're going to be certainly more effective at slowing him down than just having all their troopers get killed from their own blaster bolts.

As for the fight with Kylo Ren, well, they spent half the movie showing how effective Chewie's bowcaster was. So, yes, a pair of rookies did manage to hold their own, barely, while he had a huge whole him...a hole that shattered storm trooper armour and sent them flying.

Southpaw2012
12-20-2015, 10:54 AM
Going into the film, I predicted that Kylo Ren was the son of Han Solo and Princess (General) Leia and that Luke trained Kylo before he turned against him. However, I also predicted that Rey was the sister of Kylo Ren and the daughter of Han and Leia. I think you're right, that Rey is being set up to be Luke's daughter, but the film in some ways hinted that Rey could be the daughter of Han because:

1. Rey's intro in some ways mirrored Luke's intro in Episode 4. Desert planet, abandoned by family, etc etc. I could see that instead of having to take down the "evil father" like Luke did, she'd have to take down the "evil brother" which is Kylo Ren.

2. Han and Leia seemed attached to Rey, which I thought might be a hint that she was secretly their daughter.

3. That being said, I think the signs are pointing to her being Luke's daughter, which will still be cool in upcoming movies.

fionwe1987
12-20-2015, 08:45 PM
Rey and Han finishing each other's sentences, and Ben mocking her for thinking Han was like the father she never had also hint at Rey being a Solo instead of a Skywalker. But we will see.

My biggest surprise that Leia, while still being force sensitive, seems to have not learned to use it at all, and certainly didn't seem to have a Lightsaber. What gives?

I was frankly hoping the Jedi Order would be back. Seeing that there's only one alive, and one in training, very like New Hope, was disappointing.

And yes, in large ways, this is New Hope 2.0. But I'm not complaining at all. They can take this in many interesting directions.

Was anyone else annoyed that pretty much billions of people died and we don't even know which planet they were from? And no one seemed all that sad! Was Coruscant one of the planets they destroyed?

Khoram
12-20-2015, 09:12 PM
Did Coruscant become the capital of the Republic, or did that change once the Empire feel? Did Coruscant remain the capital of the Empire following the events of RotS? Would the New Order destroy something as important to the Empire as that was, seeing as they were pretty much Empire fanboys.

fionwe1987
12-20-2015, 10:05 PM
Did Coruscant become the capital of the Republic, or did that change once the Empire feel? Did Coruscant remain the capital of the Empire following the events of RotS? Would the New Order destroy something as important to the Empire as that was, seeing as they were pretty much Empire fanboys.

I'm sure Coruscant and the Imperial Center are one and the same. Wasn't Coruscant referenced in the extended editions of RotJ that was released in 1997?

Sukoto
12-20-2015, 10:16 PM
While I did see Han's death coming before it happened, it didn't become obvious until he called his son's name and stepped out onto that bridge. You know, the one that had "SOMEONE'S ABOUT TO DIE" written all over it.

I really liked the Fin character. The acting was good. Him and the pilot, what was his name?

DahLliA
12-21-2015, 01:55 AM
While I did see Han's death coming before it happened, it didn't become obvious until he called his son's name and stepped out onto that bridge. You know, the one that had "SOMEONE'S ABOUT TO DIE" written all over it.

I really liked the Fin character. The acting was good. Him and the pilot, what was his name?

Poe. Interesting name for a pilot that apparently dies and comes back :p

Davian93
12-21-2015, 07:00 AM
Rey and Han finishing each other's sentences, and Ben mocking her for thinking Han was like the father she never had also hint at Rey being a Solo instead of a Skywalker. But we will see.

My biggest surprise that Leia, while still being force sensitive, seems to have not learned to use it at all, and certainly didn't seem to have a Lightsaber. What gives?

I was frankly hoping the Jedi Order would be back. Seeing that there's only one alive, and one in training, very like New Hope, was disappointing.

And yes, in large ways, this is New Hope 2.0. But I'm not complaining at all. They can take this in many interesting directions.

Was anyone else annoyed that pretty much billions of people died and we don't even know which planet they were from? And no one seemed all that sad! Was Coruscant one of the planets they destroyed?

Supposedly it WAS the capital but not Coruscant.

Also, maybe Leia was too busy doing all the space cocaine in the world to learn how to be a Jedi...

ShadowbaneX
12-21-2015, 09:14 AM
Supposedly it WAS the capital but not Coruscant.

Also, maybe Leia was too busy doing all the space cocaine in the world to learn how to be a Jedi...

There were celebrations there after the Battle of Endor, but there's nothing saying that the IMPERIAL CAPITAL just say, "oh, hey, we're back to being the Republic now. All you Storm Troopers and Imperials kindly leave." No, more than likely the reason why the (New) Republic had it's capital somewhere other than Coruscant is because it's a bad idea to have your Capital in the middle of enemy territory.

As for space cocaine, I doubt Leia is hyped up on Death Sticks or Spice. As for her failing to become a Jedi, she knew the instant Han was dead from a good distance away*, and she's the General in charge of the Resistance. I think she had other priorities.


*one thing that REALLY pissed me off about this movie is JJ's utter failure to comprehend inter-stellar distances.

Khoram
12-21-2015, 09:41 AM
Yeah. It felt like the whole movie took place in the span of a day or two. :/

ShadowbaneX
12-21-2015, 12:08 PM
and took place in the same solar system...or at least two systems right next to each other.

The Unreasoner
12-21-2015, 12:13 PM
and took place in the same solar system...or at least two systems right next to each other.

Sun magic shot from one system to another system can be seen traversing space from a third system.

Sounds about right.

Davian93
12-21-2015, 12:37 PM
Sun magic shot from one system to another system can be seen traversing space from a third system.

Sounds about right.

I mean sure, we can barely see Mars and Venus as tiny tiny dots in the night sky if the conditions are right but hey, you can definitely see planets in distant solar systems with the naked eye at least as large as our Moon in a daylight sky in his world. Because the plot requires it. He did the same stupid thing in Star Trek too though...which was my first thought when I saw it. They need to hire an astrophysicist to hit him with a rolled up newspaper every time he makes one of these mistakes.

He also did the "everything is right next to each other" thing with the trip from Jakku to the "this is totally not the Mos Eisley Cantina" Cantina planet trip. They were in hyperspace for maybe 45 seconds there. Which, again, was highly reminiscent to the Earth to Vulcan 60 second trip in ST.

So Abrams really really sucks at such things.

Davian93
12-21-2015, 12:39 PM
As for Leia sensing Han dying...she could hear Luke's voice in Empire as well as sense that Luke survived the 2nd Death Star blast in Jedi...so her skills are basically the same as we last saw them as far as we know.

ShadowbaneX
12-21-2015, 12:40 PM
Credit where credit is due though...there aren't (m)any lens flares.

Davian93
12-21-2015, 12:44 PM
Credit where credit is due though...there aren't (m)any lens flares.

I can only assume that Disney hired a sniper that had him beaded with a red laser dot at all times during the editing process to prevent them.


Upside, the director of the next one is Rian Johnson...Rian is a very, very talented director so it should be solid.

Ivhon
12-21-2015, 12:57 PM
"Oscillator" or not, the law of conservation of mass must be obeyed. You shove the mass of a star into the volume of a very small planet (based on scale to Death Star) you end up with a neutron star with gravity so strong that all the living people on the planet are squished to the size of roughly an atom. When said tiny planet im/explodes and the star is released, it should either expand to its original stellar size or remain a neutron star (both scenarios also stretching physics).

But I loved it.

Davian93
12-21-2015, 01:06 PM
"Oscillator" or not, the law of conservation of mass must be obeyed. You shove the mass of a star into the volume of a very small planet (based on scale to Death Star) you end up with a neutron star with gravity so strong that all the living people on the planet are squished to the size of roughly an atom. When said tiny planet im/explodes and the star is released, it should either expand to its original stellar size or remain a neutron star (both scenarios also stretching physics).

But I loved it.

Much like the Star Trek reboot....its a great movie as long as you dont think too hard about any of it.

Thus, I enjoyed it quite a bit.

fionwe1987
12-21-2015, 02:02 PM
Upside, the director of the next one is Rian Johnson...Rian is a very, very talented director so it should be solid.
Downside, the one after that, which will probably be the movie where Rey really gets to shine, will be directed by... Collin Trevorrow, so she will probably give up the lightsaber and learn to love children. :eek:

ShadowbaneX
12-21-2015, 09:18 PM
Downside, the one after that, which will probably be the movie where Rey really gets to shine, will be directed by... Collin Trevorrow, so she will probably give up the lightsaber and learn to love children. :eek:
If done properly in the next one and she becomes a fan favourite the Mouse Empire won't let anyone screw with something that is making them billions.

fionwe1987
12-22-2015, 12:52 AM
If done properly in the next one and she becomes a fan favourite the Mouse Empire won't let anyone screw with something that is making them billions.

Maybe not screw up completely, but certain things come through. JJA did Alias, and you can see some of that influence here. Rey is completely self-sufficient (almost too much so), and all the jokes surrounding her and Finn are about how he assumes she needs to be saved, multiple times, but she's already extricated herself from the dangerous situation. Would that kind of stuff be in Disney's hands? I doubt it. I think the director has more control over this, and someone like Trevorrow, who avowed that he and his co-writer gave "a lot of thought" to the female character in Jurassic World and still came up with what we got, doesn't inspire much confidence.

Davian93
12-22-2015, 09:01 AM
Maybe not screw up completely, but certain things come through. JJA did Alias, and you can see some of that influence here. Rey is completely self-sufficient (almost too much so), and all the jokes surrounding her and Finn are about how he assumes she needs to be saved, multiple times, but she's already extricated herself from the dangerous situation. Would that kind of stuff be in Disney's hands? I doubt it. I think the director has more control over this, and someone like Trevorrow, who avowed that he and his co-writer gave "a lot of thought" to the female character in Jurassic World and still came up with what we got, doesn't inspire much confidence.

You see, she's a tough girl, that's why she can run in heels...and isn't that Chris Pratt so dreamy??? At least she learns her proper place in the world by the end of the world and likely settles down to raise a family like her sister.

fionwe1987
12-22-2015, 10:03 AM
You see, she's a tough girl, that's why she can run in heels...and isn't that Chris Pratt so dreamy??? At least she learns her proper place in the world by the end of the world and likely settles down to raise a family like her sister.

Rey in heels... :eek:

The Unreasoner
12-22-2015, 10:11 AM
We already know the plot of IX. Rey saves humanity from the Ixians by hiding from the oracle and arafel. Then she kills Supreme Leader Snoke for the hell of it.

ETA: while not wearing heels. So calm down buddy.

Davian93
12-22-2015, 10:18 AM
The final weekend numbers came in late last night...SW: TFA shattered pretty much every record. $248 M domestic, $529 M global. Both are records by decent margins. The domestic is about $40 M higher than any other movie in history and the global is just ahead of Jurassic World which came in around $524 M. Caveat: that Jurassic World number included China which hasn't gotten SW yet so had it been a true global release for SW, their global number would have likely been around $630 M instead of $529 M.

So, all in all, an utterly smashing success for Disney and Hollywood blockbusters. Something of a surprise too as the initial estimates didn't have it beating Jurassic World but the actuals came in much higher than expected for Sat & Sun.

Figure it'll smash through the $1 Billion mark sometime around next Sunday after another massive weekend for Christmas.

The Unreasoner
12-22-2015, 02:58 PM
A more immediate issue for Rey is whether the actress portraying her gets paid fairly.

I could have sworn she was the star, but Oscar Isaac and Adam Driver got paid more. Harrison Ford made almost 50 times as much. And I know star power and agents decide most of it, but I hope she gets something on the back end.

Southpaw2012
12-22-2015, 03:56 PM
Is Rey's actress that distinguished though? I hope she got a lot, but it doesn't surprise me that someone like Harrison Ford would get more, and probably should. Daisy Ridley (Rey) certainly made a name for herself, as did Finn's actor (Boyega?) and I look forward to seeing more of them together.

fionwe1987
12-22-2015, 04:59 PM
Is Rey's actress that distinguished though? I hope she got a lot, but it doesn't surprise me that someone like Harrison Ford would get more, and probably should. Daisy Ridley (Rey) certainly made a name for herself, as did Finn's actor (Boyega?) and I look forward to seeing more of them together.

She's new, and that's part of it. But she's also a woman, and Hollywood hasn't moved much on that.

The Unreasoner
12-22-2015, 05:01 PM
How did Poe survive? I didn't hear his explanation.

Eta:
Nm. Had it minimized by accident.

DahLliA
12-22-2015, 05:32 PM
How did Poe survive? I didn't hear his explanation.

Eta:
Nm. Had it minimized by accident.

It was pretty much "I fell out and fainted".

So there's theories going around that he's a traitor, either willingly or unwillingly, because it was a pretty thin story.

Davian93
12-22-2015, 05:39 PM
Ford is the only big name in it...only logical he got a massive payday. What had any of them been in before this? Even Fisher and Hamill only got a pittance for their parts compared to Ford.

Khoram
12-22-2015, 06:03 PM
Ford is the only big name in it...only logical he got a massive payday. What had any of them been in before this? Even Fisher and Hamill only got a pittance for their parts compared to Ford.

He also played a much larger role in the movie. I can't see Hamill getting that big of a party day for his work. He was in what, two scenes, and didn't have a single line?

Davian93
12-22-2015, 06:11 PM
Driver also made more because he's been in a lot more major roles than either Ridley or Boyega. Neither of them had really done anything at all before SW. They were complete unknowns with very minimal credits to their name. Ford is one of the top grossing stars in movie history with a huge number of massive hits and he's arguably the most beloved and iconic character in SW. They needed him and he knew it and negotiated accordingly.

Boyega and Ridley cashed in simply by being in this movie. They'll both get dozens of calls for roles going forward instead of begging just to get an audition.

Frenzy
12-23-2015, 01:15 AM
Maybe he can come back in the next movie and wear all of Han's old clothes again since Han won't be needing them anymore.

Too soon, dude. Too soon. :p

Any speculation who the old guy that Poe met up with at the beginning? I'm thinking Wedge Antilles.

yks 6nnetu hing
12-23-2015, 04:33 AM
The final weekend numbers came in late last night...SW: TFA shattered pretty much every record. $248 M domestic, $529 M global. Both are records by decent margins. The domestic is about $40 M higher than any other movie in history and the global is just ahead of Jurassic World which came in around $524 M. Caveat: that Jurassic World number included China which hasn't gotten SW yet so had it been a true global release for SW, their global number would have likely been around $630 M instead of $529 M.

So, all in all, an utterly smashing success for Disney and Hollywood blockbusters. Something of a surprise too as the initial estimates didn't have it beating Jurassic World but the actuals came in much higher than expected for Sat & Sun.

Figure it'll smash through the $1 Billion mark sometime around next Sunday after another massive weekend for Christmas.

For the record, Star Wars is inherently much less gore-y than the Jurassic stuff. That's the reason I didn't go see Jurassic. Yes, I know, it's not "proper" horror but still. I know I can't handle it so why would I do that to myself? I saw Star Wars yesterday, the theatre was full. Before the movie started, I looked around a bit and I saw a VERY even spread of everyone. Kids aged maybe 7 and up, grey hair/bald heads, women and men equally - there really aren't that many films or franchises that have THAT wide a spread. It's like the Adele of movies.

Driver also made more because he's been in a lot more major roles than either Ridley or Boyega. Neither of them had really done anything at all before SW. They were complete unknowns with very minimal credits to their name. Ford is one of the top grossing stars in movie history with a huge number of massive hits and he's arguably the most beloved and iconic character in SW. They needed him and he knew it and negotiated accordingly.

Boyega and Ridley cashed in simply by being in this movie. They'll both get dozens of calls for roles going forward instead of begging just to get an audition.

I read somewhere that Ridley and Boyega made exactly the same amount - which, ok, it's less than Ford made, BUT 1) the entire plot wouldn't have worked without Han Solo 2) he won't be in any of the sequels and 3) I hear Ridley and Boyega's contracts specify that they'll get another chunk of money if/when the movie grosses more than... um... I don't remember how much. AND they've a built-in pay increase for the next movies.

as for the movie, I really liked it :) I may go see it again once the first frenzy has died down a bit. As for Rey, I'm trying to find clues in the music, John Williams is genius - one of his best feats was including the Darth Vader theme into Anakin's theme. if you listen to Rey's Theme and Luke's theme together, they are very similar. Rey's is lighter, faster, less melancholic. So yeah, chances are good she's Luke's daughter. But then, who's the mom?

Anyways, I loved Rey and Finn. Together but also separately. Finn is (to me) such a refreshing change in the macho-action world. Yes, he fights and he runs around trying to save the girl, but he's not at all surperior about it. He's just so earnest the whole time. And Rey most definitely CAN take care of herself, but when Han and Finn and Chewey show up, she doesn't say "I already freed myself and could have gotten out all by myself" - which, she might have done. Instead she simply says "thank you". Because even if you *can* do something on your own sometimes it's very very nice to have help. She was just so genuinely happy and surprised to see them, perhaps even more so because she wasn't counting on them. Again, as feminist strong characters go, it's so easy to scoff and dismiss the male characters who show up "too late", it's much rarer to just say thank you.

DahLliA
12-23-2015, 06:56 AM
Too soon, dude. Too soon. :p

Any speculation who the old guy that Poe met up with at the beginning? I'm thinking Wedge Antilles.

Han should have shot first :p

Oh. And the guy at the start is a new character:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lor_San_Tekka

Anyways, I loved Rey and Finn. Together but also separately. Finn is (to me) such a refreshing change in the macho-action world. Yes, he fights and he runs around trying to save the girl, but he's not at all surperior about it. He's just so earnest the whole time. And Rey most definitely CAN take care of herself, but when Han and Finn and Chewey show up, she doesn't say "I already freed myself and could have gotten out all by myself" - which, she might have done. Instead she simply says "thank you". Because even if you *can* do something on your own sometimes it's very very nice to have help. She was just so genuinely happy and surprised to see them, perhaps even more so because she wasn't counting on them. Again, as feminist strong characters go, it's so easy to scoff and dismiss the male characters who show up "too late", it's much rarer to just say thank you.

Totally agree with this. I really like female characters that can do stuff on their own, without the need to spell out how they can do stuff on their own every time they do it.

What's sad though is that it happens so rarely that I'm genuinely surprised when it does.

Davian93
12-23-2015, 07:18 AM
Too soon, dude. Too soon. :p

Any speculation who the old guy that Poe met up with at the beginning? I'm thinking Wedge Antilles.

Its 100% not Wedge. They even asked Wedge to reprise his role and he refused. Its (from the movie at least) some old Aldaraanean/Rebel (the "she'll always be a princess to me") guy who follows the Church of the Force (Wookiepedia) that basically supports Luke and the return of the Jedi. So pretty clearly he was placed there by Luke at some point for some sort of purpose (watch over Rey perhaps?)

Davian93
12-23-2015, 07:25 AM
3) I hear Ridley and Boyega's contracts specify that they'll get another chunk of money if/when the movie grosses more than... um... I don't remember how much. AND they've a built-in pay increase for the next movies.

I believe it kicks in once the movie hits the $1 Billion gross mark (expected to happen around Sat night actually) and they get a very small percentage of the gross after that point (probably 0.5% or 1.0% at most...still a ton of money). Alec Guinness had a similar deal with Lucas back in 1977 and it pretty much gave him tens of millions from then until his death 20 years later. Guinness made 2.25% of the total gross of New Hope. Doesnt sound like much till you realize the movie made like $1.2 Billion (adjusted for inflation) so that's basically $27 M in today's money. Even if they got 0.25% of the gross after $1 B...if it grosses $2.5 Billion (a very strong possibility it at least reaches that mark), that'd be $3,750,000 more money for each of them.

Brita
12-23-2015, 07:48 AM
Anyways, I loved Rey and Finn. Together but also separately. Finn is (to me) such a refreshing change in the macho-action world. Yes, he fights and he runs around trying to save the girl, but he's not at all surperior about it. He's just so earnest the whole time. And Rey most definitely CAN take care of herself, but when Han and Finn and Chewey show up, she doesn't say "I already freed myself and could have gotten out all by myself" - which, she might have done. Instead she simply says "thank you". Because even if you *can* do something on your own sometimes it's very very nice to have help. She was just so genuinely happy and surprised to see them, perhaps even more so because she wasn't counting on them. Again, as feminist strong characters go, it's so easy to scoff and dismiss the male characters who show up "too late", it's much rarer to just say thank you.

I love this so much. 100% agree. They actually act like real people instead of stereotypes.

Davian93
12-23-2015, 09:13 AM
One annoying criticism I've seen is people saying Rey is a Mary Sue.

So...make her helpless and you're being a sexist misogynist who is stating that women need a strong man to save them.

Make her strong and resourceful "She's a Mary Sue!!!"


Nothing she did seemed super off the charts for her background. Luke was way more "resourceful" in New Hope but nobody was complaining.


On a side note, I obviously do not have kids but I could clearly see that little girls would and probably absolutely do LOVE Rey as someone to look up to...

Brita
12-23-2015, 09:30 AM
Although I understand why The Mary Sue exists, it is disproportionately aimed at female characters (like you noted with Luke vs. Rey). And that is why this "definition" resonates with me:

A sexist term used to enforce the misogynistic ideals that female characters/authors shouldn't be allowed to fantasize or write anything along the lines of wish fulfillment. Its misogynistic qualities are exemplified in many ways, most notably being the fact that it's not a term dominated by the male counterpart despite existing in a patriarchal society, as well as the fact that the male counterpart is largely undecided upon in name and also undefined (see urban dictionary's Gary Stu entry which has no definition but to say "A Male Mary Sue", and the Marty-Stu entry which involves the "Mary Sue" definition to define it).

It's usually used on the whole to bully new authors out of writing female characters altogether, making the task seem so daunting to some that they now only write slash fictions with two male characters, also exemplifying the misogynistic qualities this term involves.

1.
Fan Fiction Reader: Why don't we just call all bad/annoying characters "special snowflakes" instead of using a female name like mary-sue in a derogatory fashion?

2.
Troll: You're writing a mary-sue to pair with the canon character you fat low life, it's pathetic and so are you!

3.
Author: I'm so afraid of having my female character labeled as a mary-sue that I only write male characters!

(I added the bold)

ShadowbaneX
12-23-2015, 01:14 PM
Yeah, they're pretty much set for life, although unless they work really hard or are really lucky, they might also be type-cast for life.

Southpaw2012
12-23-2015, 01:28 PM
People really shouldn't complain about Finn wanting to "save the girl." For one, there's nothing wrong with a guy wanting to save a girl, or anyone for that matter, who seems to be in danger. And two, Finn stated once or twice that what he does is because it's the right thing to do. Finn was able to be a man and a great character while Rey was able to be a strong woman who was able to stand up for herself and destroy some baddies. A great balance was struck and we now have two fantastic characters leading the series.

The Unreasoner
12-23-2015, 01:35 PM
Poe: Why are you helping me?

Finn: Because it's the right thing to do.

Poe: You need a pilot.

Finn: I need a pilot.

ShadowbaneX
12-23-2015, 01:35 PM
as for the movie, I really liked it :) I may go see it again once the first frenzy has died down a bit. As for Rey, I'm trying to find clues in the music, John Williams is genius - one of his best feats was including the Darth Vader theme into Anakin's theme. if you listen to Rey's Theme and Luke's theme together, they are very similar. Rey's is lighter, faster, less melancholic. So yeah, chances are good she's Luke's daughter. But then, who's the mom?

Anyways, I loved Rey and Finn. Together but also separately. Finn is (to me) such a refreshing change in the macho-action world. Yes, he fights and he runs around trying to save the girl, but he's not at all surperior about it. He's just so earnest the whole time. And Rey most definitely CAN take care of herself, but when Han and Finn and Chewey show up, she doesn't say "I already freed myself and could have gotten out all by myself" - which, she might have done. Instead she simply says "thank you". Because even if you *can* do something on your own sometimes it's very very nice to have help. She was just so genuinely happy and surprised to see them, perhaps even more so because she wasn't counting on them. Again, as feminist strong characters go, it's so easy to scoff and dismiss the male characters who show up "too late", it's much rarer to just say thank you.

The mother can be just about anyone (well, probably not Leia) at this point. An adapted Mara Jade (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mara_Jade_Skywalker) could be possible if they want to borrow from the EU. She's Force Sensitive which could also help.

Camie Loneozner (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Camie_Loneozner) is possibility...or well, pretty much anyone (again, save Leia) listed here (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Luke_Skywalker/Legends#Romances).

Or, like Lor San Tekka (the old guy from the start of the movie) it could be someone completely new.

I think one of the reasons Rey responds as she did was that Finn is the first person to come back for her...(sorta). She's spent, what? 15 years waiting for her family to return, and with practically a Compulsion for her to remain there. Finn is the only one to actually do that.

As for the Mary Sue, nah, not in the slightest. The only element that's really there is a) she is competent and b) there's no explanation for it....yet, and that will likely occur when we find out who, exactly, her parents are.

If it is Luke and someone else who trained at his academy, well, Rey might well have grown up there, and in the prequels we see the Younglings training with Lightsabres. They wouldn't have been much older than Rey was when she was left on Jakku. As long as no one says the M-word, we should be fine.

Daekyras
12-23-2015, 02:01 PM
It was pretty much "I fell out and fainted".

So there's theories going around that he's a traitor, either willingly or unwillingly, because it was a pretty thin story.

That theory was started by someone trolling apparantly.

If Poe was a traitor for the new order he was terrible at it as he was instrumental in winning both the battles when he could have allowed them to win by being ever so slightly less the greatest fighter pilot of all time.

Anyone reading the rey is a Mary sue crap? Keeps me entertained. On the flop house facebook group there was a guy compared her to Egwene from the wheel of time.

I quarantined him! At least two people clicked like- hope some of you are hanging around on it!!

fionwe1987
12-23-2015, 02:18 PM
On the flop house facebook group there was a guy compared her to Egwene from the wheel of time.

I quarantined him! At least two people clicked like- hope some of you are hanging around on it!!
Well... since Egwene is a pretty competent person whose success doesn't depend on luck, but more on practice and effort... what's wrong with the comparison?

Khoram
12-23-2015, 02:21 PM
Well... since Egwene is a pretty competent person whose success doesn't depend on luck, but more on practice and effort... what's wrong with the comparison?

How often do you have Egwene thanking people for helping her out of a tight situation, instead of saying that their help was completely unnecessary?

Daekyras
12-23-2015, 02:23 PM
Because his post read something to the tune of "Mary sues are prevalent in fantasy writing. Everything from ce'nedra in Eddings to the Queen of Mary sues Egwene in the Wheel of Time".

So if you want, I can agree with him. Personally I thought he was talking shit but to each there own.

Brita
12-23-2015, 02:23 PM
How often do you have Egwene thanking people for helping her out of a tight situation, instead of saying that their help was completely unnecessary?

Ya, I am an Egwene fan, but I don't see any similarities between the characters except for a certain level competence. But actual personality traits...not at all.

Daekyras
12-23-2015, 02:30 PM
Ya, I am an Egwene fan, but I don't see any similarities between the characters except for a certain level competence. But actual personality traits...not at all.

I'm with you brita. I don't think either are Mary sues. Max landis is just a dick.

Brita
12-23-2015, 02:47 PM
Because his post read something to the tune of "Mary sues are prevalent in fantasy writing. Everything from ce'nedra in Eddings to the Queen of Mary sues Egwene in the Wheel of Time".

So if you want, I can agree with him. Personally I thought he was talking shit but to each there own.

Even more so, I would say that Egwene is so loaded with personal baggage and imperfections that she is definitely NOT a Mary Sue. That is why she is such a polarizing character. She was written to be full character, including flaws. The opposite of a Mary Sue really (unless one's definition of a Mary Sue involves any female character that is competent and/or successful...)

Daekyras
12-23-2015, 02:55 PM
Even more so, I would say that Egwene is so loaded with personal baggage and imperfections that she is definitely NOT a Mary Sue. That is why she is such a polarizing character. She was written to be full character, including flaws. The opposite of a Mary Sue really (unless one's definition of a Mary Sue involves any female character that is competent and/or successful...)

That seems to be the problem. If you are a woman type person you can't be skilled.

You must be a Mary sue because you don't need a man to save you every 15 seconds.

I hate that line of thought. It is "reddit" group think shit.

Is rey a little too good? I can see that. I think she is overly skilled with the Falcon. But everything else? I'm fine with.

Also, kudos to daniel Craig for his cameo. Very funny.

The Unreasoner
12-23-2015, 03:08 PM
Also, kudos to daniel Craig for his cameo. Very funny.

Wait, that wasn't a joke?

In any case, I don't think it's always the fact that Egwene is a girl that people dislike her. I hated Harry Potter for most of the same reasons.

While Rey is not a Mary Sue by any stretch (and 'the Force' can explain her familiarity with the Falcon, if you really needed one), Harry Potter definitely is.

Daekyras
12-23-2015, 06:48 PM
Wait, that wasn't a joke?

In any case, I don't think it's always the fact that Egwene is a girl that people dislike her. I hated Harry Potter for most of the same reasons.

While Rey is not a Mary Sue by any stretch (and 'the Force' can explain her familiarity with the Falcon, if you really needed one), Harry Potter definitely is.

Yeah, he was the storm trooper force whispered by rey to release her.

Brita
12-23-2015, 10:13 PM
While Rey is not a Mary Sue by any stretch (and 'the Force' can explain her familiarity with the Falcon, if you really needed one),

After their ridiculously awesome flight and gun handling- they both exclaim "how did you that?" And they both reply "I don't know!"- which is why I think they both can use the force.

yks 6nnetu hing
12-24-2015, 02:17 AM
People really shouldn't complain about Finn wanting to "save the girl." For one, there's nothing wrong with a guy wanting to save a girl, or anyone for that matter, who seems to be in danger. And two, Finn stated once or twice that what he does is because it's the right thing to do. Finn was able to be a man and a great character while Rey was able to be a strong woman who was able to stand up for herself and destroy some baddies. A great balance was struck and we now have two fantastic characters leading the series. See, this is why Finn is so different from your regular macho males. yes, he wants to save the girl (she's pretty and he likes her, and he really wants to do the right thing) but Finn is not cocky. He doesn't think that he's God's gift to humanity (or, at least womankind). He's insecure about himself, about where he comes from and where he's going to, but he tries to do the right thing anyway.

After their ridiculously awesome flight and gun handling- they both exclaim "how did you that?" And they both reply "I don't know!"- which is why I think they both can use the force. yeah, that was a great moment :D and I think you're right, it means that they can both use the Force. you know, that made me realize another thing I liked about this movie. There were several moments of positive reinforcement when I'm sure some of it could have ended up on the editing floor. "good shot" "well done" "I can take care of myself - I know you can".

connabard
12-24-2015, 10:56 AM
I enjoyed it but I am not very much of a Star Wars fan (I only like Empire Strikes Back of the Original 3, and I only like the ending fight between Obi-Wan and Anakin in the prequels)

I found everything EXCEPT the plot to be fantastic. The acting was phenomenal, especially so from Boyega and Ridley, the set-pieces were amazing and I liked Kylo Ren, but I was a little disappointed when he turned out to be an angsty-teen who worships Vader. I would have preferred a mentally unstable lunatic (which, I guess he could be, just in this movie it struck me more as whiny teenager)

Overall it's a fun film but it just felt very much like A New Hope 2.0 that it took away a bit of the joy I felt, and normally I can suspend my disbelief for things like this but it did bother me that R2D2 just happened to wake up after the battle so he could complete the map for everyone. What made him wake up then? Why couldn't he have woken up earlier, making it a tough decision between fighting off the NO and finding Luke?

Overall, good movie. I'd give it an 8/10

The Unreasoner
12-24-2015, 11:39 AM
I also was somewhat annoyed by the plot. It just seemed like IV ran through google translate back and fourth a couple times. Khoram loved the callbacks, I gritted my teeth. And I actually said 'oh, fuck off' when soneone said 'so it's basically another Death Star' and Poe pretends it's totally different. And that yellow cgi bartender looked way too 'minionsy' for my taste. Fake.

Khoram
12-24-2015, 11:52 AM
Yep. I'm a sucker for callbacks and easter eggs. It was the same deal when Jurassic World came out. :D

connabard
12-24-2015, 11:57 AM
I think it's fine to have a call back, but homages are better and this film was call back to call back to call back

The Death Planet/Star made me groan as well, especially since it ostensibly had the same weakness, and it was all very rushed.
Out of nowhere, it starts destroying planets, and then within 20 minutes it's destroyed the end no problem. What will be the threat of tNO in the next movie? An actual Death Star where they use a for real star to shoot at other stars to make those stars blow up and destroy multiple planets in a single solar system?

jarno87
12-24-2015, 04:27 PM
I came across a review (https://medium.com/@tonyszhou/the-force-awakens-is-a-deeply-broken-film-b-c-one-character-shouldn-t-be-there-spoilers-b31e33a44ee6#.o05by2asg) which argues the problem with the plot is that Han Solo did not die in the original triology. Therefore, they had to rebuild his (emotional) story arc to build up to his dead. This left little time for the storyline of the new protagonists.

Daekyras
12-25-2015, 02:29 AM
R2D2 just happened to wake up after the battle so he could complete the map for everyone. What made him wake up then? Why couldn't he have woken up earlier, making it a tough decision between fighting off the NO and finding Luke?

Overall, good movie. I'd give it an 8/10

I can answer the R2d2 question.

After the return of the jedi he continued being involved in multiple adventures. Eventually he became a general.

Anyway after a victory he and his crew were having a party. On of his subordinates got drunk and threw a sheet over him.

Now, turns out R2 is solar powered. Everyone thought he was "sleeping" when in fact he was just powered down due to lack of light.

Then in tfa he has the sheet pulled off. He remains powered down as the room is quite dark. Over the next while the low ambient light finally charges his battery enough to switch on.

The timing seems very convenient but in reality it is simply coincidental.

Merry Christmas everyone.

Frenzy
12-25-2015, 05:09 PM
That's better than thinking he was in standby because he had to defrag & install updates since he hasn't had his memory erased in over seventy years

Daekyras
12-25-2015, 07:09 PM
That's better than thinking he was in standby because he had to defrag & install updates since he hasn't had his memory erased in over seventy years

He nearly had it erased at the beginning of a new hope but owen said he'd do it the next day and R2 left in the night.

despite the fact this is the home of HCFF that might be the nerdiest thing I've typed.

Davian93
12-27-2015, 07:52 PM
Couple possibilities:

1. Luke felt Han die and then reached out (or sent a signal via the SW version of subspace radio) to activate R2 since he realized it was time to come back.

2. R2 activated once Rey showed up because his scanners recognized her Skywalker DNA.



Both of those are likely better explanations than the one they'll end up giving us.

The Unreasoner
12-27-2015, 08:24 PM
They already gave us one. Basically it was a delayed response to BB-8's original query. I guess it just took a long time to process it in low power mode.

Which doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but it's what JJ went with. Maybe he needed to wait for something else too.

I for one hope Rey isn't a Skywalker. One of my least favorite aspects of Star Wars is how small the galaxy seems to be, in terms of the characters all knowing or being related to one another.

Khoram
12-27-2015, 11:17 PM
I just saw it again tonight, and what I couldn't help noticing was the fact that the galaxy map looked VERY similar to that of our own Milky Way. I thought the story was supposed to take place in a galaxy far, far away. Not a galaxy close to home.


Unless, of course, it being a long time ago means that the galaxy actually is far away, due to its being in a completely different location in space and time.

Davian93
12-28-2015, 07:41 AM
Abrams likely isn't aware that there are other galaxies...

Mort
12-28-2015, 10:05 AM
That's better than thinking he was in standby because he had to defrag & install updates since he hasn't had his memory erased in over seventy years

"Welcome, you have 29,000 new updates pending. Download and install now?"

fdsaf3
12-28-2015, 02:17 PM
For what it's worth, I really liked the new movie. I think there's some merit to the criticism of Rey being a Mary Sue. Sure, there are probably some in-universe explanations that help put her abilities into context, but some of what happens can be a bit much to take in without more context. For this movie to make sense, you have to absolutely know about things like being Force sensitive and what various abilities with the Force are. Maybe that's ok since this is the 7th movie in a franchise. But still.

For me, the best parts of the movie were what story elements were left unexplained. I like that they had the guts not to reveal everything right away. I like the fat that we as a collective fandom now have 2-ish years to speculate, wonder, debate, and dig into this movie for clues about what happens in the next movie. There are a ton of details left unexplained. How we got from the end of Return of the Jedi to here is an incredibly interesting story. The origins of all the new characters is also really interesting.

So, yeah. My overall takeaway was that I really enjoyed this movie. I'm excited to dig into the universe they are creating here.

Davian93
12-28-2015, 05:20 PM
For what it's worth, I really liked the new movie. I think there's some merit to the criticism of Rey being a Mary Sue. Sure, there are probably some in-universe explanations that help put her abilities into context, but some of what happens can be a bit much to take in without more context. For this movie to make sense, you have to absolutely know about things like being Force sensitive and what various abilities with the Force are. Maybe that's ok since this is the 7th movie in a franchise. But still.

For me, the best parts of the movie were what story elements were left unexplained. I like that they had the guts not to reveal everything right away. I like the fat that we as a collective fandom now have 2-ish years to speculate, wonder, debate, and dig into this movie for clues about what happens in the next movie. There are a ton of details left unexplained. How we got from the end of Return of the Jedi to here is an incredibly interesting story. The origins of all the new characters is also really interesting.

So, yeah. My overall takeaway was that I really enjoyed this movie. I'm excited to dig into the universe they are creating here.

Seconded.

Frenzy
12-28-2015, 08:57 PM
i hate the "Mary Sue" argument. It's total bullshit.

Davian93
12-28-2015, 09:00 PM
i hate the "Mary Sue" argument. It's total bullshit.

Agreed, it's utter garbage.

ShadowbaneX
12-28-2015, 09:13 PM
it's more generally used in something that's longer running. If she pulls grand military strategist & makes a galactic wide peace agreement out of her nowhere in Star Wars XI, with no possible explanation for it, then it's Mary Sue-ism. As it is now, there's plenty of possible explanation for what's happened.

rand
12-28-2015, 09:39 PM
The only thing that didn't make sense to me about Rey was how she learned astromech droid language and Wookiee language while literally living in the middle of nowhere. I mean, Tatooine is a thriving hub of civilization compared to Jakku (which was essentially uninhabitabled until shortly after Return of the Jedi, I think). Then again, Anakin programmed C3PO to speak 6,000,000 different languages, so who knows...

Overall, it was a great movie. The only real complaint I had was the scene where the space pirate gangs attack Han, only to have the giant monsters eat them. It just seemed like something JJ Abrams would have put in one of his Star Trek movies. Plus it didn't really add anything to the story. But other than that, it was great. Han's death wasn't really surprising, but it was still worked in very well. The light saber fight in the snow was awesome--I'm glad they got away from all the stupid acrobatics they used for the light saber fights in the prequels.

A lot of people seemed upset when Lucas sold Star Wars to Disney, but honestly, taking it away from him was the best thing anyone could have done for the franchise. Does Lucas still retain the rights to the originals? Could Disney rerelease them in their original form again?

ShadowbaneX
12-28-2015, 11:46 PM
The only thing that didn't make sense to me about Rey was how she learned astromech droid language and Wookiee language while literally living in the middle of nowhere. I mean, Tatooine is a thriving hub of civilization compared to Jakku (which was essentially uninhabitabled until shortly after Return of the Jedi, I think). Then again, Anakin programmed C3PO to speak 6,000,000 different languages, so who knows...

Who says she learned Droid & Wookie on Jakku?

rand
12-29-2015, 12:14 AM
Not sure if it's considered cannon, but according to the Force Awakens Visual Dictionary (yeah I'm a nerd) "Rey's interaction with offworlders has allowed her to learn nonhuman languages such as Wookiee and astromech binary."

Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not calling Rey a Mary Sue. The language thing just seems pretty unlikely though.

Davian93
12-29-2015, 07:48 AM
it's more generally used in something that's longer running. If she pulls grand military strategist & makes a galactic wide peace agreement out of her nowhere in Star Wars XI, with no possible explanation for it, then it's Mary Sue-ism. As it is now, there's plenty of possible explanation for what's happened.

So far, she's just a scavenger who has some good repair skills. That makes sense given that she has had to learn by doing with fixing things to resell them so she can eat. So, logical and makes sense. She's been shown to be a good pilot...which makes sense as she's a natural Force user. Anakin was a great pilot at Age 9 and Luke was able blow up the Death Star in an X-Wing that he had never seen 5 min before...his only piloting background was in a T-16 back home in an atmosphere, not in space. So, the whole Force user is a great pilot thing regardless is well established in this universe. They also established that she could take care of herself with a staff...clearly also the result of being abandoned and left to fend for herself. So she has developed a good bit of close combat abilities and is a natural Force user so that explains why she's so good there. Its only natural that would carry over to using a Lightsaber which is really just another form of a big stick albeit one that cuts through nearly anything.

The only reason she could even hold her own with Kylo Ren was because he was very badly wounded by Chewie's bowcaster...so that was also pretty well established in the movie.

Rey's abilities were actually pretty well explained during the movie for the most part. Luke went from never hearing about the Force to blocking laser bolts blindfolded 5 min later and then guiding proton torpedoes into a target meter less than 2 meters wide maybe 48 hours after that...a shot impossible for the very best pilots in the entire Rebellion to make with a targeting computer. And this is from a punk teenager moisture farmer who never had to do anything tough in his life before that.

If anything, Luke is the super Mary Sue, not Rey. For example, when the hell did Luke learn to use a grappling hook on his Uncle's farm? All he knew was moisture vaporators and going to Toschi Station to get power converters.

Davian93
12-29-2015, 07:52 AM
A lot of people seemed upset when Lucas sold Star Wars to Disney, but honestly, taking it away from him was the best thing anyone could have done for the franchise. Does Lucas still retain the rights to the originals? Could Disney rerelease them in their original form again?

I believe he sold them EVERYTHING for that $4 billion price tag. He had basically a "creative consultant" role on these movies which consisted of him saying "here are my outlines for Episodes 7-9" and then Disney promptly dumped them in the garbage and Lucas stopped going to any meetings. Very similar to the ST movies after TMP when they kicked Roddenberry out of the process....but even more so since they also took the rights to everything too.

ShadowbaneX
12-29-2015, 08:29 AM
Fair enough. My point is that there are possible explanations. Then again, I've got a feeling that there might just be some bias here. If Rey was "Ray" people wouldn't be complaining as much.

Brita
12-29-2015, 08:51 AM
Fair enough. My point is that there are possible explanations. Then again, I've got a feeling that there might just be some bias here. If Rey was "Ray" people wouldn't be complaining as much.

I couldn't agree more.

ShadowbaneX
12-29-2015, 07:42 PM
I was thinking more of Honor Harrington actually.

I'm completely fine with what Rey has done so far...well, the quarterstaff to lightsabre is a bit odd as they are entirely different weapons, but as someone else pointed out, Finn uses the lightsabre differently than Rey does. His style is more sweeps and swings, whereas her's is more thrusting, and short swings...much like how you'd use a quarterstaff.

My point was more that if in later movies she all of a sudden winds up bringing the entire Galaxy together to form a massive armada and then leads that fleet to defeat an invading foe. If that happens then they might have some cause to call her a Mary Sue, because they'd have no basis for her to really have that kind of knowledge.

That logistical, diplomatic, tactical & strategic knowledge required for that would require years of training and education. She has a sufficient background for her current knowledge & skillset. They have to go quite a bit further before she's close to a Mary Sue.

Daekyras
12-29-2015, 09:23 PM
Fair enough. My point is that there are possible explanations. Then again, I've got a feeling that there might just be some bias here. If Rey was "Ray" people wouldn't be complaining as much.

Correct.

One of the main things a Mary sue has is other characters commenting on how good they are.

There is literally a scene in the movie where finn says "Wow, that is some pilot" about poe after stopping in the middle of a battle to watch him hot dogging. Not a single Mary sue aimed at him.

Res_Ipsa
12-30-2015, 01:27 PM
Enjoyable and visually appealing. That is how I would describe Star Wars, but it had so many plot holes and "just believe" moments that it is not a good film, even if it is a good Star Wars film. I feel like the fans were looking for any excuse to be happy with this film and overlooked too many problems with the film.

ShadowbaneX
12-30-2015, 01:57 PM
Enjoyable and visually appealing. That is how I would describe Star Wars, but it had so many plot holes and "just believe" moments that it is not a good film, even if it is a good Star Wars film. I feel like the fans were looking for any excuse to be happy with this film and overlooked too many problems with the film.
It's not anything like the prequel trilogy. That's all the reason any movie fan has for liking this one.

The Unreasoner
12-30-2015, 02:31 PM
Correct.

One of the main things a Mary sue has is other characters commenting on how good they are.

There is literally a scene in the movie where finn says "Wow, that is some pilot" about poe after stopping in the middle of a battle to watch him hot dogging. Not a single Mary sue aimed at him.
But it's not like Poe was good at anything else. He got captured, spilled the beans on BB-8, and couldn't even pull off a somewhat competent crash landing (or at least stay conscious long enough to punch out). Rey's handling of the Falcon was more impressive (and we actually saw it). Compare that to Harry Potter, a spoiled little shit that is loved by everyone. Or characters bending over backwards to praise Egwene (like the God-awful Honey in the Tea chapter). Or worse, KJA's Duncan Idaho who is apparently so fucking cool the bad guys just surrender.

If an author has a favorite character, he or she has to be careful not to let that seep into the story. It's very jarring as a reader when they don't share the author's affection, and clumsy attempts to hold a character up break up the immersion.

That being said, I had to google Mary Sue to understand what the accusation was. Whether that means they are exceptionally rare or that I just have non asshole friends, I don't know. IMO, a Creator's Pet is way worse and far more common. Even Egwene isn't a Mary Sue, her abilities and talents and knowledge are well explained in-universe (aside from the Brandonism of super-competent spies and researchers offscreen that, aside from discovering things that seem like they should be unknowable to them, also could have drastically changed the plot had they appeared earlier). But her talents simply aren't displayed to be broad enough to make her eligible to be a Mary Sue. Most are simply alleged by other characters, and even the most egregious offenders of 'show, don't tell' clearly don't think she walks on water.

The Unreasoner
12-30-2015, 02:43 PM
Consider Aragorn. He's pushing at being a Mary Sue, and is clearly one of Tolkien's favorites. The fact that he's lived almost a hundred years, studied with the High Elves, and has Numenorean blood might explain most of his abilities. But only if you really understand and buy into the universe. However his effect on almost all other characters can only be accepted if you share Tolkien's affection for the character.

The Unreasoner
12-30-2015, 02:50 PM
Enjoyable and visually appealing. That is how I would describe Star Wars, but it had so many plot holes and "just believe" moments that it is not a good film, even if it is a good Star Wars film. I feel like the fans were looking for any excuse to be happy with this film and overlooked too many problems with the film.

I know the film had problems, but none of then seemed related to any character. IMO the only real issues were in the (mostly recycled) plot, and unnecessary scenes like the one with those...pirates? (Idk what they were) who were eaten by monsters.

The characters were all solid. Even the droid was great (loved the thumbs up scene), and C3PO was always a weak point in the OT.

Brita
12-30-2015, 03:20 PM
If an author has a favorite character, he or she has to be careful not to let that seep into the story. It's very jarring as a reader when they don't share the author's affection, and clumsy attempts to hold a character up break up the immersion.

That being said, I had to google Mary Sue to understand what the accusation was. Whether that means they are exceptionally rare or that I just have non asshole friends, I don't know. IMO, a Creator's Pet is way worse and far more common.

Creator's Pet is a much better term- gender neutral. Of course the biggest beef with the "Mary Sue" concept is the automatic gender assignment. Creator's Pet describes the situation with these annoying characters in an unbiased (aka non-sexist) way.

Btw- the worst moment in the movie for me, the moment when my disbelief could not be suspended, was the scene in which Captain Phasma just turns off the shield with no fight, no tricks, no effort at resistance. So lame. That really is the only scene that made me groan inwardly. I enjoyed the rest immensely.

The Unreasoner
12-30-2015, 04:42 PM
Yeah, I forgot about that scene. It was pretty bad in retrospect, although when I first saw it I thought she would alert General Hux or just turn them back on when Finn and Han left. And the Resistance would be stuck wth the mere handful of ships that made it through the window.

Two things about Finn that bugged me:
He won't kill for the First Order, but apparently has no problem killing, as long as it's members of the First Order. Seriously, he starts killing right away, even knowing that they are all basically brainwashed child soldiers.

And the fact that he lied about knowing how to turn off the shield just so he could get a ride to Starkiller Base and 'save' Rey struck me as incredibly selfish. Did he even intend to go through with it at first? Would he have put it off until after saving Rey if Han didn't call him out? Even a slight delay would have meant the complete destruction of the Resistance base (and possibly the whole movement).

And more general complaints with the plot: it's easy to write about heroes who have the flexibility of being the opposition. Not having the Republic play a larger role seems kind of like cheating, or lazy. It's hard to govern. The GOP and the SW writers know playing opposition is easy.

And it would have been nice to know something about the balance of power. Is the First Order a fascist separatist element of the Republic? Or is it more or less the Empire minus a handful of systems that won their freedom?

The Unreasoner
12-31-2015, 08:26 PM
Did anyone see the Lucas interview with Charlie Rose? It's almost heartbreakingly baffling. He really doesn't seem to get why some of his movies were considered good and some bad. Like, at all. He criticizes the new movie for being 'retro' and hilariously called Disney 'white slavers'.

But then he says that it's a story about family, not about spaceships (as if that is a mark against Disney) then goes on to contradict himself by saying that he worked hard to make each movie 'different', by which he means they had different planets and different spaceships in each one. Because that's what makes the story different. Apparently.

I'm sure that it's just a coincidence that each new spaceship was another 10 million in toy revenue for him.

ShadowbaneX
12-31-2015, 10:23 PM
I'm convinced by this point that if it wasn't for the production stuff the original trilogy would have looked much like the prequels and have been barely remembered by history. Credit where credit is due, he created the setting, but he needed a lot of help to make it into the story that it became.

rand
01-01-2016, 12:16 AM
Not sure if it's true or not, but I've heard his (former) wife really reined him in from adding a bunch of stupid stuff to the original trilogy. Then when they got divorced Lucas purposely included a lot of that crap in the prequels to spite her. So we really have Lucas's first(?) wife to thank for having the original trilogy as it is.

And going with my question as to whether or not Disney could release the originals in their original form, I wonder if they'd ever considered remaking the prequel trilogy? I mean, it's too soon now, and it would be a slap in the face to Lucas, but maybe decades from now...who knows. There's a good story there, buried under all the layers of trade negotiations and gungans stepping in poop.

ShadowbaneX
01-01-2016, 03:40 PM
Not sure if it's true or not, but I've heard his (former) wife really reined him in from adding a bunch of stupid stuff to the original trilogy. Then when they got divorced Lucas purposely included a lot of that crap in the prequels to spite her. So we really have Lucas's first(?) wife to thank for having the original trilogy as it is.

And going with my question as to whether or not Disney could release the originals in their original form, I wonder if they'd ever considered remaking the prequel trilogy? I mean, it's too soon now, and it would be a slap in the face to Lucas, but maybe decades from now...who knows. There's a good story there, buried under all the layers of trade negotiations and gungans stepping in poop.
And look how well that turned out.

They cannot remake Star Wars until Lucas is dead...and even then, now that they own it, I'm not sure that they can.

Tomp
01-05-2016, 05:10 AM
I haven't read all posts so I may repeat some things here.

Concerning Rey and Finn vs Kylo.
Kylo had just taken a direct hit in the chest from Chewie's weapon which would have slowed him down. We see that these Stormtroopers have some melee abilities when Finn faces the Stormtrooper earlier and many Think that Rey had some Jedi training Before being left on Jakku and the force and some of her training returned to her. She also had some Close combat encounters on Jakku vs thugs of various kind.

Concerning the Death of Han.
I think they waisted an opportunity there. They should have built a Little on their relationship earlier, perhaps had a scene earlier between father and son. That would have given the Death scene more impact.

Concerning Phasma.
I hated how underused she was. If they just had changed the noname stormtrooper with Phasma in the Close combat encounter with Finn that would have solved many issues concerning that.
I also think she caved to easily when lowering the shield.

Concerning rey.
She's probably a grad daughter of Vader, whether she's a Skywalker or a Solo (organa) linage is unsure. The reason for her being that is because that SW is a big soap opera in space. I hope that she is completely unrelated to any of the known characters because I want this huge galaxy to be huge and not only center on a few people. Let the universe grow a bit.

Concerning Poe.
I think he plays the role in the story that Denis Lawson (Wedge) would have played Before he backed out of being in the Movies.

Concerning giant weapons and capital Worlds.
The new republic moves between a few systems so that they seem to be representing all the people. I think the system that was targeted was the Hussian system where the republic was gathered.

I liked a lot about the Movie.

What I didn't like was.
-The rushed way that they went from info to action on destroying the base/weapon. No analysing the situation, a solution was just there at once.
-The gangs and CGI monsters on the freighter in the beginning. It was just all wrong.
-Phasma and how they squandered that character. (hopefully she'll be back for 8 to redeem herself)
-The lack of explaining what was happening with the new republic and thing associated with that.

Daekyras
01-05-2016, 05:06 PM
I haven't read all posts so I may repeat some things here.

Concerning Rey and Finn vs Kylo.
Kylo had just taken a direct hit in the chest from Chewie's weapon which would have slowed him down. We see that these Stormtroopers have some melee abilities when Finn faces the Stormtrooper earlier and many Think that Rey had some Jedi training Before being left on Jakku and the force and some of her training returned to her. She also had some Close combat encounters on Jakku vs thugs of various kind.


finn has his ass absolutely handed to him in the fight with ren. He gets one lucky blow.

Rey is also getting beaten. Then ren points out to her that he could train her in the ways of the force (I note he says force and NOT dark side) and she then meditates a second and proceeds to force him back. Using angry, powerful blows. She is clearly very powerful force user- much stronger than ren. And I think snoke knows this.