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The Unreasoner
01-03-2016, 01:08 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/01/03/armed-militia-bundy-brothers-take-over-federal-building-in-rural-oregon/

An armed militia took over a building at a national wildlife refuge in Oregon late Saturday and vows to occupy the outpost for years to protest the federal government’s treatment of a pair of ranchers facing prison time.
The occupation of a portion of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge 30 miles southeast of Burns, Ore., followed a peaceful march for ranchers Dwight Hammond, 73, and Steven Hammond, 46, who are scheduled to report to federal prison in San Pedro, Calif., on Monday after being convicted of arson, according to the Oregonian (http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2016/01/drama_in_burns_ends_with_quiet.html#incart_big-photo).


Prosecutors said the father and son set the fire, which burned about 130 acres in 2001 on leased federal land, to conceal poaching, according to CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/03/us/oregon-wildlife-refuge-protest/). The Hammonds argued that they were attempting to reduce the growth of invasive plant species and ward off potential wildfires. The pair was sentenced to five years in prison.


Among the occupiers are several members of the Bundy family, whose patriarch — Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy — was involved in an armed standoff with government agents over grazing rights in 2014.


Ammon Bundy told the Oregonian that he and two of his brothers had joined dozens of people in seizing the refuge’s headquarters.


The federal property, managed by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, was closed and unoccupied for the holiday weekend, the Oregonian reported.



Ryan Bundy told the Oregonian that the group isn’t holding hostages and doesn’t want to resort to violence but will not rule it out if authorities attempt to remove the occupiers from the property. He said many of the occupiers would be willing to fight — and die — to reclaim constitutionally protected rights for local land management, according to the Associated Press (http://bigstory.ap.org/article/1c5f7e5c3b2b4b3d80d491dfea275f8b/militia-members-occupy-us-building-oregon-after-protest).

Emphasis mine.

You show that Federal government who's boss, Southpaw.

GonzoTheGreat
01-04-2016, 04:25 AM
Seems simple enough: put snipers around the building with "shoot to kill" orders, and just wait. After a couple of months or so the occupiers will run out of supplies, and then they try to order pizza. This won't work, since the pizza delivery service doesn't want to be shot dead, and thus the problem will be solved. Once all occupiers have starved to death a clean up team can go in to remove the corpses, and some time next year the building can be used for its designated purpose again.
As a bonus, this can be used by the US Army for life fire sniper training, thus saving the cost of doing that elsewhere.

Are there any actual downsides to this?

Davian93
01-04-2016, 10:37 AM
A single JDAM through the roof and then mail the remains back to their respective families in plastic bags would be better.

Caedite Eos!

DahLliA
01-04-2016, 10:57 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the whole purpose of the 2nd amendment?

Right to carry arms, so that if the people don't like what the government is doing, they can use those arms to shoot back at the army?

Problem as I see it, is that "the people" is pretty hard to define :p

GonzoTheGreat
01-04-2016, 11:24 AM
Problem as I see it, is that "the people" is pretty hard to define
Nuke them from orbit; it's the only way to be sure.

ShadowbaneX
01-04-2016, 11:57 AM
A single JDAM through the roof and then mail the remains back to their respective families in plastic bags would be better.

Caedite Eos!

Can they do the Chinese thing and charge the family for the cost of the missile? Out of respect they could offer free shipping, but give them the option to upgrade to overnight courier if they want.

Kimon
01-04-2016, 11:58 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the whole purpose of the 2nd amendment?

Right to carry arms, so that if the people don't like what the government is doing, they can use those arms to shoot back at the army?

Problem as I see it, is that "the people" is pretty hard to define :p

The 2nd Amendment (much like the problem with the interpretation of the 1st Amendment) means vastly different things to different people. This unfortunately is one of those sticky situations where the anarchic kooks are clearly in violation of numerous laws, and clearly deserving of being brought to justice, but arresting crazy people can be messy - like Ruby Ridge and Waco, or the Whiskey Rebellion back in the 1790s...

We have a long history of these sorts of tax evading and anti-govt dicks. Indeed our nascence was little more than a temper tantrum when mommy asked us to help repay her war debts from the French and Indian War which we had triggered.

The Unreasoner
01-04-2016, 12:21 PM
We have a long history of these sorts of tax evading and anti-govt dicks. Indeed our nascence was little more than a temper tantrum when mommy asked us to help repay her war debts from the French and Indian War which we had triggered.
The French weren't exactly blameless, and Britain treated all of her colonies like shit. Granted, we probably had less to complain about than most, but less is not none. And we got a fantastic severence package.


Amusingly, many on the right are trying to equate this pack of rednecks with Black Lives Matter, or at least in terms of legitimacy.

The differences of course being: Black Lives Matter is not heavily armed, and they also have jobs that prevent them from jacking off in the woods for a few years.

Southpaw2012
01-04-2016, 04:55 PM
I don't support this, so nice try. However, it's funny you all are up in arms about white guys taking over a building, no force used, yet are silent when a bunch of black people burn down other people's property, as well as steal and loot from those who don't deserve it. Funny, though unsurprising.

Davian93
01-04-2016, 04:59 PM
I don't support this, so nice try. However, it's funny you all are up in arms about white guys taking over a building, no force used, yet are silent when a bunch of black people burn down other people's property, as well as steal and loot from those who don't deserve it. Funny, though unsurprising.

LOL...the "ironic" thing is that we're kidding but you're normally serious.

And nice try on placing this along the lines of Black Lives Matter...given that we've all bashed that fringe movement too.

But yeah.

Southpaw2012
01-04-2016, 05:07 PM
Yeah, those guys are stupid. Whether they are right, it's only going to lead to chaos.

The Unreasoner
01-04-2016, 05:28 PM
Yeah, those guys are stupid. Whether they are right, it's only going to lead to chaos.
Of course they might be right, and aren't a bunch of sisterfucking welfare queens who want to use civilian human shields.

Davian93
01-04-2016, 05:55 PM
Yeah, those guys are stupid. Whether they are right, it's only going to lead to chaos.

Given that the two guys they're protesting in support of have disowned them and don't want anything to do with them...I'm guessing they're not right.


Also, these ranchers already get massive subsidies on land usage where they can rent federal land out at a pittance (maybe 5% of its actual private market value) with only minimal restrictions on its usage. Its pure gov't welfare to support ranching as it is. Yet they're bitching about the big evil gov't telling them HOW they get to use land that isn't even theirs and has NEVER been theirs.

Its part of the "I want to have my cake and eat it too" mentality you see so often in the Far Right. They want all the benefits of society while refusing to deal with the obligations that those benefits entail whether its "don't use all that water up" or "clean up that pollution from your ranch/farm" or "pay basic taxes for things".

Kimon
01-04-2016, 05:58 PM
On a tangential note...

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-35228848

Will be interesting to see just what he does, and just how much of a tantrum the right throws.

Davian93
01-04-2016, 06:04 PM
I honestly think this is an idiotic decision by him that will only hurt the Left come November. Gun Control is a huge wedge issue in swing states like PA, CO, OH and FL. Threatening gun rights really brings out the Right and a big chunk of the Center to vote against it whereas the Left really isn't motivated t to show up to vote in support of it.

Add in the coming economic slowdown thanks to China's paper dragon finally imploding and it suddenly becomes a toss-up election in November potentially.

Why risk it...why risk handing over the Presidency when you can't really do much of anything via Executive Order anyway? Just a stupid gesture by him.

Rand al'Fain
01-04-2016, 06:14 PM
I honestly think this is an idiotic decision by him that will only hurt the Left come November. Gun Control is a huge wedge issue in swing states like PA, CO, OH and FL. Threatening gun rights really brings out the Right and a big chunk of the Center to vote against it whereas the Left really isn't motivated t to show up to vote in support of it.

Add in the coming economic slowdown thanks to China's paper dragon finally imploding and it suddenly becomes a toss-up election in November potentially.

Why risk it...why risk handing over the Presidency when you can't really do much of anything via Executive Order anyway? Just a stupid gesture by him.

Colorado more so than most. A month hardly goes by when there isn't some sort of shooting spree going on it seems.

Maybe not that often, but it seems something is in the water down there.

Davian93
01-04-2016, 06:19 PM
Colorado more so than most. A month hardly goes by when there isn't some sort of shooting spree going on it seems.

Maybe not that often, but it seems something is in the water down there.

Its a fairly rural state with a ton of hunters...same as OH and PA. Lots of OH & PA are very conservative older white Democrats mixed in with the urban area democrats (overwhelmingly minorities in Pittsburgh and Philly). PA is basically two cities with Alabama in between for forward thinking. I grew up there, I still have a TON of friends and family there and they will vote Dem as long as you don't piss them off with things like taking their guns. OH is nearly the same but even more Red than PA due a more rural population. FL is obviously always a major swing state.

Here's another bit on the whole "protest/sit-in" crap: http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-armed-oregon-ranchers-who-want-free-land-are-already-getting-a-93-percent-discount/?ex_cid=538twitter

Great article on how hypocritical they're being about the cost of using federal land. If it was privatized like they "want", they couldn't afford it and they'd all be bought out by mega corporate farms anyway. They're idiots.

Kimon
01-04-2016, 09:03 PM
I honestly think this is an idiotic decision by him that will only hurt the Left come November. Gun Control is a huge wedge issue in swing states like PA, CO, OH and FL. Threatening gun rights really brings out the Right and a big chunk of the Center to vote against it whereas the Left really isn't motivated t to show up to vote in support of it.

Add in the coming economic slowdown thanks to China's paper dragon finally imploding and it suddenly becomes a toss-up election in November potentially.

Why risk it...why risk handing over the Presidency when you can't really do much of anything via Executive Order anyway? Just a stupid gesture by him.

You may well be right, but that doesn't change the truly depressing fact that nothing that he is presumably (at least what has supposedly been leaked so far) putting forth should be controversial.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-35229294

Under the plan announced on Monday evening by the White House:
All sellers must be licensed and conduct background checks, overturning current exemptions to some online and gun show sellers
States must provide information on people disqualified due to mental illness or domestic violence
FBI will increase workforce processing background checks by 50%, hiring more than 230 new examiners
Congress will be asked to invest $500m (£339m) to improve access to mental healthcare
The departments of defence, justice and homeland security will explore "smart gun technology" to improve gun safety

Davian93
01-04-2016, 09:38 PM
None of it should even be debatable and these are all measures that were perfectly acceptable even under Bush Jr and would have been considered insane (for their LACK of reach) by Bush Sr or Mr. Brady Bill himself St. Reagan.

But it will be and it'll be twisted way out of proportion by the Right as a get out the vote measure.

fionwe1987
01-05-2016, 03:48 AM
I honestly think this is an idiotic decision by him that will only hurt the Left come November. Gun Control is a huge wedge issue in swing states like PA, CO, OH and FL. Threatening gun rights really brings out the Right and a big chunk of the Center to vote against it whereas the Left really isn't motivated t to show up to vote in support of it.
I don't know... fear of exactly this set of events has led to pretty much nothing changing. Doing what he's doing can bring out the right, sure, but it might just energize gun opponents too.

If common sense proposals to stop selling guns without licenses to people without a mental health clearance will bring out the worst in the right wing... maybe this country needs to see that.

Also, I find the very idea of comparing this to BLM absurd. Those guys are extreme, but they're reacting to a very real problem which has been repeatedly ignored by the rest of society. This... this is a tantrum with guns.

GonzoTheGreat
01-05-2016, 04:13 AM
Doing what he's doing can bring out the right, ...
So Obama is basing his policy on Monty Python And The Holy Grail?
"Bring out your right, bring out your right!"

Of course, in the USA, supreme executive authority derives from some farcical aquatic ceremony*, not from a mandate from the masses. So it is indeed unclear whether Obama would have any right to make such proposals.

* The gerrymandered electoral college, to be precise.

Rand al'Fain
01-05-2016, 11:43 AM
Its a fairly rural state with a ton of hunters...same as OH and PA. Lots of OH & PA are very conservative older white Democrats mixed in with the urban area democrats (overwhelmingly minorities in Pittsburgh and Philly). PA is basically two cities with Alabama in between for forward thinking. I grew up there, I still have a TON of friends and family there and they will vote Dem as long as you don't piss them off with things like taking their guns. OH is nearly the same but even more Red than PA due a more rural population. FL is obviously always a major swing state.

Here's another bit on the whole "protest/sit-in" crap: http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-armed-oregon-ranchers-who-want-free-land-are-already-getting-a-93-percent-discount/?ex_cid=538twitter

Great article on how hypocritical they're being about the cost of using federal land. If it was privatized like they "want", they couldn't afford it and they'd all be bought out by mega corporate farms anyway. They're idiots.

You'd be surprised. Denver and the surrounding areas are growing quite rapidly. To the point where it can be hard to tell where one town ends and another begins. It's one of the fastest growing areas in the country.

Davian93
01-05-2016, 01:29 PM
You'd be surprised. Denver and the surrounding areas are growing quite rapidly. To the point where it can be hard to tell where one town ends and another begins. It's one of the fastest growing areas in the country.

Didn't the anti-gun control sentiment factor into their Dem Senator Mark Udall losing in 2014? Granted, it was also your typical off-year election no-show by the Left but still.

Davian93
01-05-2016, 01:55 PM
Followup to above:

2008 Turnout:

(D) Mark Udall: 1,230,994
(R) Bob Schaffer: 990,775

2012 Turnout:

(D) Mark Udall: 944,203
(R) Cory Gardner: 983,981

As you can see, its not even that the GOP got more voters...they just showed up while nearly 300K Democrats decided to stay home. Dems only have themselves to blame with this crap too.

Rand al'Fain
01-05-2016, 04:44 PM
Didn't the anti-gun control sentiment factor into their Dem Senator Mark Udall losing in 2014? Granted, it was also your typical off-year election no-show by the Left but still.

A lot of mixed feelings in Colorado. For example, when pot was first being discussed to be legalized, some of the Northern counties were talking about seceding from the state, and even attaching themselves to Wyoming. At this point though, there's a lot of strong sentiment coming out from that state, some going one way, a lot going another.

The Unreasoner
01-27-2016, 10:01 PM
So even with their leader imprisoned and spokesman dead, these lunatics won't go home. Instead, they're announcing Armageddon. Literally. And calling for the killing of law enforcement.

How are they different from ISIS again?

Frenzy
01-28-2016, 03:20 AM
Out of curiosity, fellow TLers in the legal field, what would these persons be charged with?

GonzoTheGreat
01-28-2016, 04:37 AM
How are they different from ISIS again?ISIS actually sort of manages to have something resembling a state. I seriously doubt these folks would be anywhere near that competent.

Of course, whether you want your insane homicidal clowns to be competent or incompetent is a matter of aesthetics, which means that it depends on individual preferences.

The Unreasoner
01-28-2016, 03:21 PM
Out of curiosity, fellow TLers in the legal field, what would these persons be charged with?
Here's what they will be charged with. I'd be interested in hearing about what they could have been charged with:
Just as the arrest was cautious, so is the charge. In the federal criminal complaint – which the FBI didn't obtain until after the arrests – the U.S. Attorney for the District of Oregon charges the eight defendants with a single count of conspiracy to impede an officer of the United States. That federal criminal statute doesn't see much use, and it's not one of the Justice Department's big guns: Its maximum penalty is only six years. To prosecutors, the virtue of such conspiracy charges are their flexibility: The government need only prove that two or more of the defendants agreed to prevent some federal employee from discharging his or her duty by force, intimidation or threat. Prosecutors don't have to prove they were successful.

...

The government's theory – thoughtfully supported by the defendants' public relations strategy – is that occupiers agreed to an armed takeover of federal buildings, thus preventing U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service employees from carrying out their duties. There are a few references to unspecified threats against federal employees and some rumblings about how the occupiers would defend themselves against a raid, but the core of the complaint is modest and straightforward: These people got together with guns and took over federal buildings and now the employees can't do their jobs.

...
and something fun from the article:

Twenty years ago I prosecuted a tax protester who claimed – as one does – that the gold fringe on the courtroom flag made it an admiralty court. "I'll pretend you're a boat," the judge said dryly, and proceeded with the mundane business of the case. Professionalism and protection of rights, not trading drama for drama, is the way to handle a self-styled revolutionary. It won't entertain the media, but it will refute the assertion that the system can't get it right.
from http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-0129-white-oregon-militia-charges-20160129-story.html

Frenzy
01-28-2016, 10:25 PM
That is the most limp-wristed bullshit i've heard in a long time.

Davian93
01-29-2016, 07:21 AM
I love sovereign citizen conspiracy theories...particularly the gold-fringe=admiralty court one.

US v. Greenstreet: "Defendant Greenstreet's response to Plaintiff's motion for summary judgment identifies this Court as an 'Admiralty Court' without further discussing his allegation. If his reference is to be construed as a jurisdictional challenge, his motion is denied. Others have attempted to persuade the judiciary that fringe on an American flag denotes a court of admiralty. In light of the fact that this Court has such a flag in its courtroom, the issue is addressed. The concept behind the theory the proponent asserts is that if a courtroom is adorned with a flag which happens to be fringed around the edges, such decor indicates that the court is one of admiralty jurisdiction exclusively. To think that a fringed flag adorning the courtroom somehow limits this Court's jurisdiction is frivolous … Unfortunately for Defendant Greenstreet, decor is not a determinant for jurisdiction."

I also love that they almost always turn out to be a bunch of welfare wanting, idiot hicks that are just massively mooching off the same federal gov't they claim to despise. "Screw the federal govt...gov't is evil and wrong. Where the hell's my gov't subsidies and assistance?!? The check was a day late this month...wahhhh!!!!"

Crispin's Crispian
01-29-2016, 02:59 PM
That is the most limp-wristed bullshit i've heard in a long time.

Sounds to me like they're playing it very safe, which (along with releasing the video right away) is consistent with their handling of this whole situation. They don't want a Waco or Ruby Ridge, and they don't want to even entertain that idea from the militants.

They won't make rabid liberals happy, but they also won't attract a bunch of wackos from the woods to support the four remaining occupiers.

Unfortunately, the video didn't help matters, it just sharpened the divide.

The Unreasoner
01-29-2016, 03:21 PM
I love sovereign citizen conspiracy theories...particularly the gold-fringe=admiralty court one.



I also love that they almost always turn out to be a bunch of welfare wanting, idiot hicks that are just massively mooching off the same federal gov't they claim to despise. "Screw the federal govt...gov't is evil and wrong. Where the hell's my gov't subsidies and assistance?!? The check was a day late this month...wahhhh!!!!"
You know that possum-owner I was talking about? She subscribes to the gold-fringed thing, believes in some weird thing where each person has a secret bank account in their name with hundreds of thousands of dollars in it that she feels entitled to (that she bafflingly claims that was created when our government sold us into slavery to Britain to pay off war debts, and she didn't believe me when I told her it was Britain that owed us, and that we didn't get off the gold standard when she said), lives off Social Security because she can't work because of some disease that can only be treated by possum ownership, and also has 'a church'. You feel bad for her when she says she 'just wants the government to leave her alone so she can stay home and home-school her kids', but she won't work and is dangerously deluded. No surprise her husband (who works for the lab in Livermore and is a great guy) got full custody.

Oh and apparently there is some 'postal court' run by some Swiss guy who has jurisdiction everywhere. I'd asked her why he hadn't arrested Kim Jong Un, but she didn't know.
Sounds to me like they're playing it very safe, which (along with releasing the video right away) is consistent with their handling of this whole situation. They don't want a Waco or Ruby Ridge, and they don't want to even entertain that idea from the militants.

They won't make rabid liberals happy, but they also won't attract a bunch of wackos from the woods to support the four remaining occupiers.

Unfortunately, the video didn't help matters, it just sharpened the divide.
You kinda have to laugh a little bit when you hear them talking about 'hands up, don't shoot' though.

Davian93
01-29-2016, 07:20 PM
Mental disease is never fun.

The Unreasoner
01-29-2016, 07:59 PM
Mental disease is never fun.
ETA:
Okay, after looking into it, maybe she is mentally ill. But I wasn't mocking her for that. She has a boyfriend who believes the same stuff. And he is just stupid, not sick.

Davian93
01-31-2016, 10:00 PM
ETA:
Okay, after looking into it, maybe she is mentally ill. But I wasn't mocking her for that. She has a boyfriend who believes the same stuff. And he is just stupid, not sick.

Oh, I didnt think you were. Its just sad the delusions people come up with...its also sad that that person has the same voting power as you or I.

GonzoTheGreat
02-01-2016, 04:14 AM
...its also sad that that person has the same voting power as you or I.
Stalin solved that problem quite neatly, didn't he?

Davian93
02-01-2016, 09:02 AM
Stalin solved that problem quite neatly, didn't he?

He was nothing if not efficient.

yks 6nnetu hing
02-01-2016, 09:16 AM
ETA:
Okay, after looking into it, maybe she is mentally ill. But I wasn't mocking her for that. She has a boyfriend who believes the same stuff. And he is just stupid, not sick.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/cd/49/fb/cd49fbf3ac32d14921a3c33ed3dd9a23.jpg

this comes close enough. I was actually looking for another cartoon I saw this weekend, the caption went something like "Don't believe anything the mainstream media says, instead believe every poorly researched and logically unsound conspiracy theory I can find"

I mean... of course a person should think for themselves and never automatically believe everything they read. But this ought to apply for ALL sources of information, the "mainstream media" as well as your crackpot cousin who smells like he hasn't been *not high* for the last year.

The Unreasoner
02-01-2016, 07:22 PM
Speaking of fake conspiracy theories, is anyone else going to see this? (http://www.wired.com/2016/02/operation-avalanche-fair-use/?mbid=social_twitter)