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Kimon
01-10-2016, 07:49 PM
I'm frankly surprised that what happened in Cologne, and elsewhere, on New Years hasn't been getting as much press here as the earlier terrorist attacks in Paris. And while Schengen was already disintegrating, and while the willingness to continue accepting refugees was long dissipating, what happened almost certainly has to be the end of both that policy of accepting refugees, and the end politically for Merkel.

What has fuelled the sense of crisis is the suspicion - now widely held - that the German establishment is not telling the truth.
The German public-service broadcaster ZDF did not mention the incidents in Cologne in its broadcast until last Tuesday, four days after the attacks.
The broadcaster has now admitted it was a "clear misjudgement" and says that since then, it has been "over-whelmed with hate and anger".
In parts of social media the idea of a "lying press" has taken root.
Some German papers are quoting police sources saying they are under orders not to report crimes involving refugees.

There is also the question of coordination.

Certainly there is much that remains to be explained. Was this a co-ordinated event and, if so, who was behind it?
The German justice minister believes it was organised, but for what purpose? Or was it just a gathering sparked by social media?

Am I really the only one who thinks that this smells of ISIS?

Here's the full article:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35261988

GonzoTheGreat
01-11-2016, 03:07 AM
Frankly, I think that it was some local Arabic-Mafia group which saw an opportunity, combined with a bunch of opportunistic (possibly drunken) instant volunteers. Which, admittedly, is more ISIS-like than ISIS might care to admit.

The German authorities did make all sorts of mistakes, too, which made things worse still.

DahLliA
01-11-2016, 06:19 AM
If nothing else, the fact that the press didn't report on it in time confirmed quite a few ideas that the racist/borderline-racist communities have been throwing around.

So, good going PC!

Kimon
01-11-2016, 04:16 PM
Looks like all clemency has run dry at least for non-Syrian interlopers.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35286640

Germany has been sending an increasing number of migrants back to Austria every day since the beginning of the month, Austrian police say.
Many had no valid documents, whilst others did not want to apply for asylum in Germany but in other countries, notably in Scandinavia, police said.
New Year's Eve attacks on women in Cologne, blamed on migrants, have put pressure on Chancellor Angela Merkel.
Most of those sent back to Austria are not Syrians, who usually get asylum.
Instead, they are migrants mostly from Afghanistan as well as Morocco and Algeria, Austrian police said.

"The daily number of migrants being turned back has risen from 60 in December to 200 since the start of the year," David Furtner, police spokesman in Upper Austria state, told AFP news agency.
Last week, Sweden, a favoured destination for many of the migrants, sought to stem the flow by imposing controls on travellers from Denmark.

Earlier, an official report said the men suspected of attacking women in central Cologne on New Year's Eve were "almost exclusively" from a migration background, mainly North African and Arab.
Nineteen individuals are currently under investigation by the state police in connection with the attacks, NRW's interior ministry says in a report (in German), none of them German nationals.
Those 19 suspects include 14 men from Morocco and Algeria. Ten of the suspects are asylum seekers, nine of whom arrived in Germany after September 2015.
The other nine are possibly in Germany illegally, the interior ministry says.

If most of the attackers really were Algerians and Moroccans, not Syrians, it does increase my suspicion of ISIS encouragement, if not planning. How better to further the fear of this influx of refugees than to coordinate the widespread sexual assault on women in various cities throughout Germany and Austria (this wasn't just Cologne, they just had the most attacks, perhaps because their police were the most incompetent), and to further the tension and hostility that fuels their cause? If they weren't behind this, they must be considering employing similar tactics now.

The Unreasoner
01-11-2016, 04:35 PM
Wouldn't ISIS want Syrians viewed with suspicion as well? They also have greater access to Syrians. It doesn't sound like ISIS to me, tbh. It really does sound like organized crime.

Kimon
01-11-2016, 04:57 PM
Wouldn't ISIS want Syrians viewed with suspicion as well? They also have greater access to Syrians. It doesn't sound like ISIS to me, tbh. It really does sound like organized crime.

What, you mean like this?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/12092354/Cologne-sex-attacks-New-Years-Eve-cases-rise-to-more-than-500.html

His remarks come amid a violent backlash against the migrant community in Germany after a gang of men reportedly assaulted a group of Pakistani and Syrian asylum seekers on Sunday night.

Cologne's local newspaper Der Express reported that a group of thugs had planned a "manhunt" for asylum seekers.

And then there is the fact that both Denmark and Sweden have re-instituted border controls to stop the flow of refugees - effectively destroying the very idea of Schengen, one of the guiding principles of the EU. This clearly will turn a much larger segment of the population against the Syrian refugees, and increase tensions between Muslims and non-Muslims in Europe.

Heck the mayor of Cologne urged women to stay away from Muslim men after the attack.

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-35243482

The Unreasoner
01-11-2016, 05:13 PM
The retaliation mob is just retarded. My point is the demographics of the attackers are so far from what we know or suspect ISIS to be, that it makes no sense for it to be ISIS. Also, no one actually in Europe seems to think it was ISIS. It sounds like it was primarily executed as a mass robbery, from the testimony from the victims. The assaults sound like crimes of opportunity.

Kimon
01-11-2016, 06:29 PM
My point is the demographics of the attackers are so far from what we know or suspect ISIS to be, that it makes no sense for it to be ISIS.

ISIS' reach is essentially wherever there are dissatisfied Sunni Muslims - the one sector where they do not have a presence is amongst Shia, hence not in Iran. That is why they have been an increasing problem not just in Iraq and Syria, but Afghanistan (where they have been fighting the Taliban, who refuse to swear allegiance to them), and across all of North Africa. The instability in Libya has made that one of the most fertile breeding grounds for them, but they have also been active in Tunisia (as seen in numerous attacks on western tourists, most notably at Sousse), in Egypt (especially in the Sinai, and also seen in that recent attack on the Russian airliner flying out of Sharm el Sheikh), but also in Algeria (feeding upon continued hostility between Algeria and France, both in Algeria itself, an old French colony, and amongst Algerians living in France), and in Morocco.

For instance:

http://www.ibtimes.com/after-paris-isis-attacks-morocco-terrorism-under-scrutiny-islamic-state-north-african-2186368

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/france-s-unresolved-algerian-war-sheds-light-on-the-paris-attack-a6736901.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2960463/The-terrifying-rise-ISIS-Map-shows-terror-group-s-tentacles-reach-Algeria-Afghanistan.html

Originally Posted by The Unreasoner
Also, no one actually in Europe seems to think it was ISIS. It sounds like it was primarily executed as a mass robbery, from the testimony from the victims. The assaults sound like crimes of opportunity.

I think this is perhaps what was behind the reports of police cover-ups, that the governments are resistant to admitting links between refugees, even when not Syrian, and ISIS, as the public will too often see the two as one and the same.

e.g.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35285086

Police in the Swedish capital Stockholm have launched an internal investigation into accusations that the force covered up widespread sexual assaults by mostly migrant youths at a music festival.
In a case echoing recent attacks in Cologne, a group of men reportedly groped girls at the We Are Sthlm event.
Police ejected 200 people from the site in August but did not mention assaults in their reports to the press.
Sweden was the first country to offer permanent residence to Syrian refugees.

According to Peter Agren, who led the police operation at the festival this summer, the controversy over welcoming refugees and migrants to the country may have contributed to a reluctance to publicise the issue.
"Sometimes we do not really say how things are because we believe it may play into the hands of the Sweden Democrats," Mr Agren told Dagens Nyheter, referring to Sweden's right-wing anti-immigration party.
Mr Gyllander also conceded that the issue may have been a factor. He said: "These days, the level of discussion is very harsh, and it's very aggressive when it comes to discussing the matter of refugees and foreigners. I think that all of us are very careful how we express ourselves."

I could be wrong about this, but it seems plausible.

The Unreasoner
01-11-2016, 06:38 PM
I still don't think it's ISIS, but let's see what comes out.

Frankly, I'd rather it be ISIS than what I think it is. We already knew ISIS was full of monsters. But if the cultures these immigrants come from sanction these assaults in any way, even implicitly, helping the refugees will become substantially harder.

As for Schengen, it, along with the EU, was more or less doomed from the start. You can't have 27 distinct fiscal, immigration, and defense policies and expect anything resembling order to come of it.

ETA:
In fact, I keep thinking of the massive pedophile apparatus in Rotherham. That certainly wasn't ISIS, and the police covered it up.

Kimon
01-11-2016, 06:49 PM
I still don't think it's ISIS, but let's see what comes out.

Frankly, I'd rather it be ISIS than what I think it is. We already knew ISIS was full of monsters. But if the cultures these immigrants come from sanction these assaults in any way, even implicitly, helping the refugees will become substantially harder.


Societal baggage, vis-a-vis views on women definitely is part of the equation, but this still seems far too widespread and coordinated simply to be isolated misogynists thinking that western women have it coming. Could this simply be the subtle seeding of ideas, hints at how to treat western women by mullahs who perhaps are sympathetic to ISIS? Sure. But it strikes me as telling that these were not Syrians, even though numbers would seem to indicate that it should have been them. That strikes me as interlopers planted to sow strife. Though, admittedly, I may be giving them too much strategic credit, where there is perhaps nothing but mob misogyny.

As for Schengen, it, along with the EU, was more or less doomed from the start. You can't have 27 distinct fiscal, immigration, and defense policies and expect anything resembling order to come of it.

It seemed to be working fairly well from 1995 until stressed, perhaps irreparably, by this recent crisis.

The Unreasoner
01-11-2016, 06:59 PM
Societal baggage, vis-a-vis views on women definitely is part of the equation, but this still seems far too widespread and coordinated simply to be isolated misogynists thinking that western women have it coming. Could this simply be the subtle seeding of ideas, hints at how to treat western women by mullahs who perhaps are sympathetic to ISIS? Sure. But it strikes me as telling that these were not Syrians, even though numbers would seem to indicate that it should have been them. That strikes me as interlopers planted to sow strife. Though, admittedly, I may be giving them too much strategic credit, where there is perhaps nothing but mob misogyny.
I'm just saying the conversation doesn't really change if Syrians were involved, which points to underutilized resources. The coordination does make me look twice, and twice more. But things simply don't add up. Again, I think of Rotherham, and the fact that ISIS was invoked right off the bat in their known operations.


It seemed to be working fairly well from 1995 until stressed, perhaps irreparably, by this recent crisis.

Many things work before they're tested by fire.

yks 6nnetu hing
01-12-2016, 01:39 AM
some admittedly flippant and not entirely related remarks:

1) as of last year (?) the Dutch officially recognize homosexuality as grounds for seeking asylum. Whatever else one might think of gays, they tend to not assault women.

2) I had a very enlightening conversation a month or two ago with a leader of the Dutch Jewish community who was heading this... sort of an Oecumenical commune including all of the local Judaeo-Christian faiths to help approach the incoming migrants. I was quite surprised when he said that sometimes the religious, national and cultural differences within the Muslim communities can be quite... let's say vocal. For example, iirc, the Algerians and Moroccans DO NOT get along.

3) Now, this is easier said than done, but still. It's extremely important to not create immigrant slums. To find the migrants a permanent place to live as soon as possible and start training them for actual work. Most of them want to work, they want security and safety - after all, that's why they're fleeing their own countries. But in an environment such as the camps that are now set up... No privacy, no proper shelter or protection, no private property... crime, including crimes against the weakest groups (women, children, the infirm and elderly) is bound to arise.

4) I agree 100% with Rutte: The migrants DO NOT get to pick and choose where they want to settle. Not right now, anyways. Maybe in 5 or 10 years when the dust has settled, and life has (hopefully) returned to stability, but not now. I know this sounds a bit like the situation during/after WWII, where if you were a displaced person, you had to go where you were told to go, and of course this isn't really... nice, always. But some European countries are so overflooded they simply can't handle any more. While others have so far received 0 migrants simply because there have been no applications. You know what? it took months of negotiations to get to a European agreement of quotas for how much certain countries would accept, and most everyone was not happy with their numbers, so suck it up and go where you're told. So if it isn't a cushy welfare state like Sweden, Germany or UK, but instead you end up in a relatively poor country like Slovakia or Latvia or Estonia. It's still better than where you came from.

5) I've been nastily harassed by a foreigner in Holland. Except he was British. I was once almost pushed under a tram by some punk who was in a hurry and apparently felt the need to use his elbows, and when I dared to tell him this wasn't ok, I got sworn out in pungent Dutch. Not to take attention away from the need to educate the asylum seekers on the local customs, the locals themselves need to first take a good hard look at themselves in the mirror before they start pointing fingers.

GonzoTheGreat
01-12-2016, 03:06 AM
I don't think many actual Syrians support ISIS, apart from those who are already a part of that group and thus wouldn't be good candidates for infiltrating refugee groups. Most of the hard core ISIS support comes from outside their region in the form of foreign volunteers. And many of those are young European Muslims of Moroccan and Turkish descent; precisely the group supposed to be involved in this. So it is possible that they were ISIS supporters who were asked to participate in an action in Europe before (or instead of) coming to Syria.
It would obviously benefit ISIS to make it more difficult for people to flee their grasp by increasing distrust of refugees, so apart from having yet another spectacular action there would also be some actual benefits for the group. Then again, those same benefits would also exist for Assad, though recruiting a large number of random helpers in Europe would be more difficult for him. Maybe his secret service managed it by pretending to be ISIS.

SomeOneElse
01-12-2016, 05:44 AM
The reason for this isn't ISIS or mafia or whatever, the actual reason is Islam with its well-known disrespect for women. Of course some people will still say the same bullshit like don't associate the muslim society with few scumbags, but, since reports say that few hundreds or even thousands were involved in these acts all over the EU makes it very hard to believe.

Today I've seen a report about two demonstrations in Leipzig, one of which is organized by neo-nazis (e.g. LEGIDA/PEGIDA) and the other one was aimed to support continuation of acceptance policy. I wonder how people could be so (the word stupid couldn't even express it), what are they waiting for? How many women should be raped for them to realize these guys aren't innocent refugees?

Just learn how much does it take to travel from Syria or Africa to Europe and you'll see they couldn't be poor people trying to escape ISIS or Assad or anything else.

GonzoTheGreat
01-12-2016, 06:54 AM
It's not Islam, it is the culture in many Islamic countries. Those are related, of course, but not the same. Just as the Holocaust wasn't just Christianity, even though it was something that happened in Christian countries.

It is rather ignorant to think that refugees have to be poor. People in Syria weren't nearly as poor as people in Somalia or Ethiopia or such are; Syrians in general do have enough resources to pay for transport. But the fact that they're willing to burn up their life savings simply to get away shows that they're pretty desperate.

fionwe1987
01-12-2016, 07:34 AM
The reason for this isn't ISIS or mafia or whatever, the actual reason is Islam with its well-known disrespect for women. Of course some people will still say the same bullshit like don't associate the muslim society with few scumbags, but, since reports say that few hundreds or even thousands were involved in these acts all over the EU makes it very hard to believe.
Oh... so since a few thousand white christians are racist pricks, Christianity is "well known for racism", correct? A few thousand Hindu's hate Muslims in India, so obviously Hinduism is well known for anti-Muslim sentiments.

As Gonzo said, there's a lot of conflation of culture and religion going on here.

SomeOneElse
01-12-2016, 08:23 AM
It's not Islam, it is the culture in many Islamic countries. Those are related, of course, but not the same. Just as the Holocaust wasn't just Christianity, even though it was something that happened in Christian countries.Not that, since Holocaust is not directly inspired by Christianity and it doesn't happen in every christian country.
At the same time, this approach to women (at least those whos clothes don't comply with islamic traditions) has its source in Quran and hence is directly related to Islam

It is rather ignorant to think that refugees have to be poor. People in Syria weren't nearly as poor as people in Somalia or Ethiopia or such are; Syrians in general do have enough resources to pay for transport.This is off-topic, but after reading this I have a question. If syrians had so great standard of living that they could afford paying several thousand to transfer themselves to a better place, maybe Assad's regime wasn't so bad?
Syrians have their own country where they can stay since some of its part aren't covered by the war.

Oh... so since a few thousand white christians are racist pricks, Christianity is "well known for racism", correct? A few thousand Hindu's hate Muslims in India, so obviously Hinduism is well known for anti-Muslim sentiments.
Bible doesn't directly call for racism. Religion itself is possibly the greatest source of conflicts, but here we're talking about the particular case in Cologne and several other european cities, not about religions in general.
In fact, ISIS isn't so "non-islamic" and "against Islam" as muslims like to publicly admit. In fact, this is a true sunni Islamic state and no one (incl. me) even has an idea what to do with this little fact. It is so easy to say that they are just a group of gangsters who have nothing to do with Islam and that terrorism is not connected with it, but this will prevent everyone from finding any effective solution. You cannot solve a problem unless you face it.
As Gonzo said, there's a lot of conflation of culture and religion going on here.
The current culture (by culture here I rather mean people's value system, not their art etc) in most islamic countries is formed and driven by the religion which is not the case with most christian countries of the west (Europe, USA).
Back to the problem of racism, if you consider most western countries before XX century (in fact be4 the WW2) you will find that most of them had racist ideology (colonialism was its direct consequence) which allowed them to slaughter and enslave people based on their skin color or religion and it started to change the moment Christianity started going down in these countries. So your rather sorcastic sentence about Christianity causing racism has a point.

GonzoTheGreat
01-12-2016, 09:05 AM
Not that, since Holocaust is not directly inspired by Christianity and it doesn't happen in every christian country.
At the same time, this approach to women (at least those whos clothes don't comply with islamic traditions) has its source in Quran and hence is directly related to Islam
Citation needed.
From what I've read about it, the Quran isn't much of a fashion magazine. Instead, those clothing rules come mainly from the interpretation given after the death of Mohammed by one of his companions. If that is true, then rather than based on the Quran, they are based on one person's bigotry. Which is why I said "citation needed". Do you have the relevant Quranic quotes to prove me wrong here?

This is off-topic, but after reading this I have a question. If syrians had so great standard of living that they could afford paying several thousand to transfer themselves to a better place, maybe Assad's regime wasn't so bad?It wasn't as bad as, say, the American South was towards black slaves. However, it wasn't much better than the Soviet Union during some of its bad episodes, and it is worse now.

Syrians have their own country where they can stay since some of its part aren't covered by the war.True, as far as it goes. That's not very far, though. The fighting is in the areas where humans can live, while the desert where people would die rapidly are generally peaceful.

Davian93
01-12-2016, 09:55 AM
From what I've read about it, the Quran isn't much of a fashion magazine. Instead, those clothing rules come mainly from the interpretation given after the death of Mohammed by one of his companions. If that is true, then rather than based on the Quran, they are based on one person's bigotry. Which is why I said "citation needed". Do you have the relevant Quranic quotes to prove me wrong here?


Good thing there are no parts of the New Testament (other than every single part written (or attributed at least) by Paul that have similar prohibitions and restrictions on women's dress, behavior, speaking in church, etc etc etc.

Nothing at all there...AT ALL.

SomeOneElse
01-12-2016, 10:09 AM
Citation needed.
From what I've read about it, the Quran isn't much of a fashion magazine. Instead, those clothing rules come mainly from the interpretation given after the death of Mohammed by one of his companions. If that is true, then rather than based on the Quran, they are based on one person's bigotry. Which is why I said "citation needed".
Does this change anything?
Quran, unless you believe it is originating from God, is a book written by some one (Mohammad) and, most likely, altered by many since VII century. But more than a billion of muslims see it as God's guidance which they must follow.

Do you have the relevant Quranic quotes to prove me wrong here?
No, I am not the one who studies and interprets Quran (sorry I forgot how this person is named but people spend their whole life to be able to always provide the relevant quote) and I am not trying to pretend to be, but again, existence of such a quote would change nothing. Islam is what its followers believe now, at least in context of our discussion, not something written 1400+ years ago.

However, it wasn't much better than the Soviet Union during some of its bad episodes, and it is worse now.It is not even comparable. In Soviet Union there was almost no freedom of speech, no democracy, no freedom. And the current situation is a result of the religious war which wasn't started by Assad.

Davian93
01-12-2016, 11:10 AM
Islam is what its followers believe now, at least in context of our discussion, not something written 1400+ years ago.

Does that mean that Christianity is what Kim Davis thinks it is...or the Westboro Baptist Church thinks it is?

Nazbaque
01-12-2016, 11:35 AM
Not that, since Holocaust is not directly inspired by Christianity and it doesn't happen in every christian country.
At the same time, this approach to women (at least those whos clothes don't comply with islamic traditions) has its source in Quran and hence is directly related to Islam

I think this comment of yours SOE2 is why Gonzo demands quotes.

Personally I think you are wrong here. Whether it's religion specifically or culture in general, they merely provide an excuse not a motive.

SomeOneElse
01-12-2016, 12:37 PM
Does that mean that Christianity is what Kim Davis thinks it is...or the Westboro Baptist Church thinks it is?

Christianity is what most christians believe and what they do in the name of their God, not something said or written 2000 years ago.
Baptists are a sect and thus other christians don't have direct responsibility for what its followers say or do.Personally I think you are wrong here. Whether it's religion specifically or culture in general, they merely provide an excuse not a motive.
Well, muslims are the only group of people in the world (among relatively large ones which have any real impact) who stone women for wrong clothes. And now you want to say that Islam isn't what inspires them to do so? Also islamic society is the greatest source of terrorists and you (or muslims) can repeat all day that terrorists can eventually be found anywhere else, but that doesn't change the reality.

Nazbaque
01-12-2016, 01:05 PM
Well, muslims are the only group of people in the world (among relatively large ones which have any real impact) who stone women for wrong clothes. And now you want to say that Islam isn't what inspires them to do so? Also islamic society is the greatest source of terrorists and you (or muslims) can repeat all day that terrorists can eventually be found anywhere else, but that doesn't change the reality.

Inspires them? No. Let's them? Yes. It's a catalyst for the behaviour certainly but not the root cause.

The reality is that human beings have a multitude of urges. Society can't create these urges only dictate which should be controlled and which encouraged. Blood lust is such an urge and these societies choose to encourage it. However they are not the only ones and this is not the only darker urge of human nature that some societies encourage.

Davian93
01-12-2016, 02:48 PM
Christianity is what most christians believe and what they do in the name of their God, not something said or written 2000 years ago.
Baptists are a sect and thus other christians don't have direct responsibility for what its followers say or do.

Ok...so what would those beliefs be...given the massively fractured nature of Christianity, it's a bit ludicrous to say there is a large consensus on that particular set of beliefs.

One census states there is approximately 72 Million Baptists, another says 75-105 Million...is that not a large enough group to say "this is what most believe?" We're not talking some obscure sect here...this is one of the major protestant groups here. So that is a fairly large set of American "christians" so it is fair to consider them a voice of Christianity in the United States especially when talking about such things. You can't blow it off because "Oh well, that's not my specific sect..." You gotta own that. Its not like Sunni or Shiite is uniform either you know. It often comes down to what the specific Imam or Mufti says for those Islamic sects. There isn't a Caliph to appeal things to there.

The Unreasoner
01-12-2016, 03:16 PM
One census states there is approximately 72 Million Baptists, another says 75-105 Million...is that not a large enough group to say "this is what most believe?" We're not talking some obscure sect here...this is one of the major protestant groups here. So that is a fairly large set of American "christians" so it is fair to consider them a voice of Christianity in the United States especially when talking about such things. You can't blow it off because "Oh well, that's not my specific sect..." You gotta own that.
Uhh...can you clarify this? Because I sure as hell will not 'own' Westboro, evangelicals, Orthodoxy, or whatever the hell Southpaw is. But I don't expect my Muslim neighbor to own ISIS either.

Frenzy
01-12-2016, 04:19 PM
and raise your hand if you honestly think controlling women became a thing with the advent of the Judeo-Christian-Muslim religion...

Davian93
01-12-2016, 04:54 PM
and raise your hand if you honestly think controlling women became a thing with the advent of the Judeo-Christian-Muslim religion...

LOL...tis a good point. I can't think of a single true matriarchy in human history. I'm sure there were at least a few occasions where this occurred but sexism against women is a pretty standard thing in human history.


But then, so is autocratic dictatorships. Its almost as if we're a tribal species dominated genetically by the strongest, most capable male and this is a somewhat natural offshoot of our Great Ape background...almost.


That doesn't justify it or make it ok...but it does somewhat explain it. That clannish mentality (like troops of apes) also somewhat explains our natural tendencies toward fearing/hating outsiders and the resulting racism we have always seen throughout our history.


Now I'm depressed by this Hobbsian view of our history.

Kimon
01-12-2016, 05:15 PM
Citation needed.
From what I've read about it, the Quran isn't much of a fashion magazine. Instead, those clothing rules come mainly from the interpretation given after the death of Mohammed by one of his companions. If that is true, then rather than based on the Quran, they are based on one person's bigotry. Which is why I said "citation needed". Do you have the relevant Quranic quotes to prove me wrong here?


This is obviously a bit open to debate, but...

And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their khimār over their breasts and not display their beauty except to their husband, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their (Muslim) women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. (Quran 24:31)

Those who harass believing men and believing women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a grievous sin. O Prophet! Enjoin your wives, your daughters, and the wives of true believers that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): That is most convenient, that they may be distinguished and not be harassed. [...] (Quran 33:58–59)

From the western perspective the main discomfort and pique regarding this type of issue tends to come in situations say when one finds oneself say at Disney World or Universal Studies (guess where I was a few weeks ago) in the midst of an historic heat wave in December, and amidst the oppressive upper 80s Fahrenheit heat, one sees amongst various other groups, all dressed quite modestly, but appropriate for the weather, while alongside them, families of Muslim background with the husbands and children all dressed comfortably for the weather, but the wives wrapped head to foot in many layers with but their face (but not hair or neck) uncovered. If it's okay, and perfectly modest for their husband to wear shorts, or to show his hair, why not the same for the wife? For a husband to demand that his wife, even when it's ridiculously warm, wear not just the hijab, but also dress like it's 50 degrees rather than nearly 90 is, at least in my eyes, misogyny.

Nazbaque
01-12-2016, 05:51 PM
Are you sure it was the husband's idea?

Kimon
01-12-2016, 05:59 PM
Are you sure it was the husband's idea?

In many cases, yes. That is not all, but in those others it is still societal/religious constraints. Is there really much difference between your husband personally insisting that you dress for winter in summer weather, or if he just reminds you that the neighbors will talk? It is not as egregious as the less widespread genital mutilation, but it is still a symptom of misogyny.

Nazbaque
01-12-2016, 06:04 PM
In many cases, yes. That is not all, but in those others it is still societal/religious constraints. Is there really much difference between your husband personally insisting that you dress for winter in summer weather, or if he just reminds you that the neighbors will talk? It is not as egregious as the less widespread genital mutilation, but it is still a symptom of misogyny.

What if it was the wife who insisted?

Davian93
01-12-2016, 06:05 PM
In many cases, yes. That is not all, but in those others it is still societal/religious constraints. Is there really much difference between your husband personally insisting that you dress for winter in summer weather, or if he just reminds you that the neighbors will talk? It is not as egregious as the less widespread genital mutilation, but it is still a symptom of misogyny.

Fun story: A lot of times, female genital mutilation is pushed by the women in that particular society...as sick as that sounds.

Kimon
01-12-2016, 06:07 PM
What if it was the wife who insisted?

Hence my mentioning of societal/religious constraints. You realize, do you not, that it was often the women in societies that encourage female genital mutilation that enforce the process?

Nazbaque
01-12-2016, 06:14 PM
Hence my mentioning of societal/religious constraints. You realize, do you not, that it was often the women in societies that encourage female genital mutilation that enforce the process?

Well there is that, but I was talking about the specific case of clothing choices you mentioned.

Kimon
01-12-2016, 06:18 PM
Well there is that, but I was talking about the specific case of clothing choices you mentioned.

Two symptoms of the same issue.

Nazbaque
01-12-2016, 06:20 PM
Two symptoms of the same issue.

Sure?

Davian93
01-12-2016, 06:24 PM
Hence my mentioning of societal/religious constraints. You realize, do you not, that it was often the women in societies that encourage female genital mutilation that enforce the process?

For much the same reason that many women in the Far Right in the US are against things like Planned Parenthood, having a choice, etc...because they're punishing those "sluts" that are after their men. Oh, and its different when they or their daughter/sister/cousin/mother/etc needs it...same with things like welfare.

Its almost as if they're being hypocritical and going against their own self-interest.


Religion, in and of itself, isn't really evil. The way it is used, like anything else, as a tool to oppress that makes it bad.

Kimon
01-12-2016, 06:34 PM
Sure?

Are you just being facetious? Of course they are. It's easier to look the other way about the clothing, but then it was also easier to look the other way about Jews wearing the Star of David than them being quarantined in camps. And before you accuse me of hyperbole or reductio ad absurdum, keep in mind cases like this...

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-34714205

he woman and the 23-year-old man she was allegedly eloping with had fled from their families in a bid to find a place to be married, RFE reported.
Officials in Ghor told the AFP news agency that Rokhshana was stoned by a gathering of "Taliban, local religious leaders and armed warlords".
Provincial Governor Seema Joyenda - one of only two female governors in Afghanistan - told the agency that Rokhshana's family had married her off against her will.
The man she was eloping with was let off with only a lashing, Ms Joyenda said.

We can pretend that this is just an isolated case, that this is just the Taliban, or just ISIS, or just the Saudis, or just the Muslim Brotherhood, or just admit that it is a real problem.

The Unreasoner
01-12-2016, 06:38 PM
Are you just being facetious?
I think he's just being Nazbaque. 'Are you sure?' in this context might as well be 'are you psychic?'

So, 'no' would be the answer.

Nazbaque
01-12-2016, 06:48 PM
I just find it interesting that you can't get out of that box. Yes the customs themselves are oppressive, but it might not be so for a specific married couple. I can think of a half a dozen reasons that aren't religious. Simplest one: the wife is shy.

Kimon
01-12-2016, 07:11 PM
I just find it interesting that you can't get out of that box. Yes the customs themselves are oppressive, but it might not be so for a specific married couple. I can think of a half a dozen reasons that aren't religious. Simplest one: the wife is shy.

Or in other words, I see the haystack, you see the needle...

Nazbaque
01-12-2016, 07:26 PM
Or in other words, I see the haystack, you see the needle...

You just see the haystack, I see a stalk slightly shorter than the others, another that's longer and ooh there's a bent one. I wonder what the average length is and how many exactly match that average. And I have to wonder if someone was clever enough to push the needle inside a stalk before hiding it in the haystack and if "stalk" is the right word for a single piece of hay and could one use this to make a pun costume for "stalker".

yks 6nnetu hing
01-13-2016, 01:28 AM
as far as clothing goes, I don't really see how a niqab or a burka is different from a nun's outfit. For that matter, it wasn't that long ago that it was absolutely NOT DONE in the Western culture for a female to appear in public with her head uncovered. The last of the everyday hat tradition disappeared in the 1970's for crying out loud.


honestly, I fail to see how this
http://www.venus-fashions.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/hijab-fashion.jpg

is any different from this (note the gloves
http://www.vgnewyork.com/Audrey-Hepburn-audrey-hepburn-21766554-1300-1573.jpg

or, for that matter, how these
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/31/41/82/3141826b62b525672828bcb9e2fda780.jpg
http://www.franciscansisterscfr.com/images/four.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/a9/f8/9e/a9f89e15a0b4b982c6493247c9a74ec2.jpg

differ from these
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR8ZG2CWgi867UxuqgUtE-ew8bKaki5u_9l8hmj1dJIHTQiDJcL
https://c4.staticflickr.com/4/3381/3548851844_662703f748.jpg


for that matter, just because it's "the fashion" now, doesn't mean that it always has been or always will be. Just google Iran photos 1960s or look at what's been happening in Turkey over the last century or so

SomeOneElse
01-13-2016, 02:15 AM
Inspires them? No. Let's them? Yes. It's a catalyst for the behaviour certainly but not the root cause.
Than what is the root cause in your opinion?

The reality is that human beings have a multitude of urges. Society can't create these urges only dictate which should be controlled and which encouraged.
Of course, and every human has some sort of morality which he uses to decide he can do something. With muslims that morality is mostly equal to their religion. As we can see, their religion does allow and even encourages sexism in one of its worst ways (see Kimon's post #39 (http://theoryland.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=235221&postcount=39)).

Blood lust is such an urge and these societies choose to encourage it. However they are not the only ones and this is not the only darker urge of human nature that some societies encourage.
Yes, surely, but muslims are the society which promotes itself and which threatens to conquer the world and slaughter every disbeliever (e.g. Dabiq army will come to Rome and kill/rape everyone there). If there is some unknown group in India or wherever which treats their women as animals, no one cares unless they start to actively promote their ideas.

Ok...so what would those beliefs be...given the massively fractured nature of Christianity, it's a bit ludicrous to say there is a large consensus on that particular set of beliefs.
There are common parts in most major sects of Christianity, if you manage to extract them (this is a subject for some great work; let's just assume it could be done) that extraction shall be what they (most of them) believe. Most muslims do believe in the sexist bullshit about women and those who do not are the very minority and have no impact.

yks 6nnetu hing
01-13-2016, 02:38 AM
also, pretty hilarious that you equate Muslims with terrorism.

"Terrorism" comes from the French word terrorisme,[5] and originally referred specifically to state terrorism as practiced by the French government during the 1793–1794 Reign of Terror. The French word terrorisme in turn derives from the Latin verb terrere (e, terreo) meaning "to frighten".[6] The terror cimbricus was a panic and state of emergency in Rome in response to the approach of warriors of the Cimbri tribe in 105 BCE that the Jacobins cited as a precedent when imposing the Reign of Terror during the French Revolution.[7][8] After the Jacobins lost power, the word "terrorist" became a term of abuse.[9]

Although "terrorism" originally referred to acts committed by a government, currently it usually refers to the killing of innocent people[10] for political purposes in such a way as to create a spectacle. This meaning can be traced back to Sergey Nechayev, who described himself as a "terrorist".[11] Nechayev founded the Russian terrorist group "People's Retribution" (Народная расправа) in 1869.[12]

In November 2004, a Secretary-General of the United Nations report described terrorism as any act "intended to cause death or serious bodily harm to civilians or non-combatants with the purpose of intimidating a population or compelling a government or an international organization to do or abstain from doing any act".[13]


emphasis mine

GonzoTheGreat
01-13-2016, 04:05 AM
and raise your hand if you honestly think controlling women became a thing with the advent of the Judeo-Christian-Muslim religion...
Well, no, not quite, though Christian egalitarianism does seem to be a huge factor in pushing this on all women. Assyrian law (from 13th century BC) said that noble women should wear veils, but commoners and prostitutes shouldn't.

So, one could quite easily argue that the fault lies with Baal, who is indeed often referenced in the Bible (and, once, also in the Quran). Why Judeo-Christian Muslims choose to obey Assyrian gods in direct contradiction of the commands in their own holy books is a fascinating question, but maybe somewhat off topic.

SomeOneElse
01-13-2016, 05:12 AM
also, pretty hilarious that you equate Muslims with terrorism.

Don't know what is so hilarious here. It is so obvious that terrorism was and is found almost anywhere and muslims are far from being its inventers, but now (according to Barack Obama's speeches) islamic terrorism is one of the biggest threats and no one can argue that most widely operating terrorist groups carry islamic slogans. You can repeat over and over that Islam is not equal to terrorism and even is "against it", but again that doesn't change the reality.
If muslims were against terrorists as much as they pretend to be, they would remove all terrorists instead of supporting them because it is their direct responsibility.

GonzoTheGreat
01-13-2016, 05:33 AM
Maybe Frank Herbert was right, and we're now seeing the start of the Zensunni movement, with Muslims incorporating chikan (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Chikan) into their rituals.

Davian93
01-13-2016, 05:45 AM
Most muslims do believe in the sexist bullshit about women and those who do not are the very minority and have no impact.

So do most Christians...especially American Protestants.

Davian93
01-13-2016, 05:54 AM
Don't know what is so hilarious here. It is so obvious that terrorism was and is found almost anywhere and muslims are far from being its inventers, but now (according to Barack Obama's speeches) islamic terrorism is one of the biggest threats and no one can argue that most widely operating terrorist groups carry islamic slogans. You can repeat over and over that Islam is not equal to terrorism and even is "against it", but again that doesn't change the reality.
If muslims were against terrorists as much as they pretend to be, they would remove all terrorists instead of supporting them because it is their direct responsibility.

They're only terrorists when they're against you. When they're fighting for you or a cause you believe in, you tend to call them freedom fighters.

In our case as a country, we ended up calling them Founding Fathers once they had won.

But let's not be hypocritical at all, shall we? And before you go "But Dav, that's totally different and our Founding Fathers never targeted civilians!!!" You might want to dig a little deeper than your 8th grade textbook and look into the very nasty partisan wars that took place during the Southern campaigns on both sides as well as the area around NYC...particularly NJ after the Battle of Monmouth and the war turned into a static affair for the most part with minor raiding back and forth.

Lots of civilians were targeted both directly and indirectly and they bore the brunt of the conflict for the final several years. This isn't even getting into the low level terrorism that led up to the war in the first place.

Another great example would be the Occupied Territories of Palestine. Can you really blame the Palestinians 100% for that given the amount of crap Israel has done to them over the years in the name of "self-defense"? Is their reaction the greatest? No, not really but Israel has made it very easy for the average Palestinian to hate them and think there is no other way.

Same with our meddling in Iran leading to their revolution and resulting hatred of America...or the idiocy we just did in Iraq in the name of Liberation.

Basically, the point is that nobody's hands are clean, its all various shades of gray and it always comes down to your personal perspective as to who the white hats are and who the black hats are in any particular conflict.

One final example, during the Troubles, thousands of Americans directly supported what the UK gov't defined as terrorism as they raised money for and even more directly supported the IRA's actions in Northern Ireland and elsewhere. Over the years, those Americans sent millions in "aid" to support who they had romanticized as freedom loving Irish Catholics who were in reality a bit more vicious than that and oftentimes very communist-based violent criminals who trained with all those other "bad guys" that we hated because they were "evil Muslim terrorists" or other similar "bad guys"...again, perspective.

yks 6nnetu hing
01-13-2016, 05:58 AM
Don't know what is so hilarious here. It is so obvious that terrorism was and is found almost anywhere and muslims are far from being its inventers, but now (according to Barack Obama's speeches) islamic terrorism is one of the biggest threats and no one can argue that most widely operating terrorist groups carry islamic slogans. You can repeat over and over that Islam is not equal to terrorism and even is "against it", but again that doesn't change the reality.
If muslims were against terrorists as much as they pretend to be, they would remove all terrorists instead of supporting them because it is their direct responsibility.

According to Wikipedia, in 2010 there were 1,6 BILLION Muslims in the world. I think it's safe to say that if they all were as nasty as you say they are, there would be 1,6 billion people in the world, total, by now.

Nazbaque
01-13-2016, 06:05 AM
Than what is the root cause in your opinion?
Sloth.
Of course, and every human has some sort of morality which he uses to decide he can do something. With muslims that morality is mostly equal to their religion. As we can see, their religion does allow and even encourages sexism in one of its worst ways (see Kimon's post #39 (http://theoryland.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=235221&postcount=39)).
Sexism is another form of sloth.

Yes, surely, but muslims are the society which promotes itself and which threatens to conquer the world and slaughter every disbeliever (e.g. Dabiq army will come to Rome and kill/rape everyone there). If there is some unknown group in India or wherever which treats their women as animals, no one cares unless they start to actively promote their ideas.
Like christians? Or nazis if you want something more resent? The huns? Mongols? Aztecs? Romans? French? British? I could go on. It's history's version of hot potato.

There are common parts in most major sects of Christianity, if you manage to extract them (this is a subject for some great work; let's just assume it could be done) that extraction shall be what they (most of them) believe. Most muslims do believe in the sexist bullshit about women and those who do not are the very minority and have no impact.
Actually it's something they share with the muslims. It's called sloth.

Kimon
01-13-2016, 07:04 AM
for that matter, just because it's "the fashion" now, doesn't mean that it always has been or always will be. Just google Iran photos 1960s or look at what's been happening in Turkey over the last century or so

Iran is still in many ways the Muslim country most like us, albeit less so than it was back in the 60s, when our buddy the Shah was running it, but so to back before him under Mossadegh. The same is also true however for its neighbor, Afghanistan. Life for women there was also quite different prior to the overthrow of their king in 1973, but especially so since the civil war that followed the Soviet withdrawal and the rise of the Taliban. Or, for that matter, also the case for women in Turkey ever since the rise of Erdogan. The situation in all three for women has gotten worse since the 60s and 70s, and in all three it is because the ruling junta has enforced a very religious ideology.

GonzoTheGreat
01-13-2016, 07:19 AM
In Afghanistan at least, we have been actively and knowingly supporting the most misogynistic creeps we could find since about the time of that Soviet invasion. With our help, they fought effectively against the Communist ideals of "equality under the law", "freedom from religion" and "education for all".

SomeOneElse
01-13-2016, 09:41 AM
They're only terrorists when they're against you. When they're fighting for you or a cause you believe in, you tend to call them freedom fighters.That's the usual freedom fighter is another man's terrorist thing. It is true, but if we accept it there are no more terrorists and freedom fighters all around. This is not very useful unless you're ready for that type of freedom those guys in Paris fought for.
Almost every one is not ready to fight for evil (unless they are darkfriends from the world of Robert Jordan), so while killing innocent people they genuinely believed they're freedom fighters and lots of people around the world share their believe. I would say this is way more dangerous part of the problem than any massacre ISIS can launch.

According to Wikipedia, in 2010 there were 1,6 BILLION Muslims in the world. I think it's safe to say that if they all were as nasty as you say they are, there would be 1,6 billion people in the world, total, by now.
You can consider those whom most part of the world now calls terrorists as a very active group, those who are ready to fight for their ideology, to kill or die for it. According to several reports, ISIS army features more than 100000 soldiers. You can instantly add Al-qaeda, Al-shabab, Taliban, most syrian and iraqi sunni groups as well as boko haram and lesser known organizations. Again these are people who already chose war which they most likely won't win and thus they chose to die for their ideology. We can only predict how many do share the same views, but the number is way more than just the number of ISIS fighters.
And you can safely exclude all shia muslims and several other sects from your 1.6 billion.
Like christians? Or nazis if you want something more resent? The huns? Mongols? Aztecs? Romans? French? British? I could go on. It's history's version of hot potato.
I am sorry, but honestly I don't see your point. Yes, in times all these groups/countries were as bad (or even worse) as ISIS, but it is over now (maybe not with nazis) and the current problem is ISIS, or, more accurately, radical wahabi/salafi groups. If ISIS wins its members shall be called freedom fighters and they will relaunch the world, probably it will even become better, but many people including us won't be able to see it. Freedom is a thing for which some one always should pay a high price, but I don't think we're ready to pay for muslims' freedom by our life, are we?

Nazbaque
01-13-2016, 10:02 AM
I am sorry, but honestly I don't see your point. Yes, in times all these groups/countries were as bad (or even worse) as ISIS, but it is over now (maybe not with nazis) and the current problem is ISIS. If ISIS wins its members shall be called freedom fighters and they will relaunch the world, probably it will even become better, but many people including us won't be able to see it. Freedom is a thing for which some one always should pay a high price, but I don't think we're ready to pay for muslims' freedom by our life, are we?

So you didn't understand. Well the point is that there will always be some group which the rest of the world sees as the bad guys and quite deservedly. However it is pointless to blame this on the toppings when it all just goes back to those same darker aspects of humanity being out of control. That's where sloth comes in. The worst of the deadly sins as once you give in to that you won't be able to hold off any of the other six.

Oh and there is no such thing as freedom and it's one of the curses of humanity that so many are willing to both kill and die for it. That too comes down to sloth.

Davian93
01-13-2016, 10:48 AM
Almost every one is not ready to fight for evil (unless they are darkfriends from the world of Robert Jordan), so while killing innocent people they genuinely believed they're freedom fighters and lots of people around the world share their believe. I would say this is way more dangerous part of the problem than any massacre ISIS can launch.

From their perspective, a nation-state that bombs their country indiscriminately and launches drone attacks that kill 50 bystanders to get 1 actual bad guy while imprisoning hundreds of "suspected terrorists" with zero due process for decades is the "bad guy".

So...its not really black and white.

Ivhon
01-13-2016, 03:36 PM
If muslims were against terrorists as much as they pretend to be, they would remove all terrorists instead of supporting them because it is their direct responsibility.

So, as a Russian, your people must have supported what Stalin was doing, yes? After all, they did not remove him and that would have been their direct responsibility...

yks 6nnetu hing
01-14-2016, 12:59 AM
So, as a Russian, your people must have supported what Stalin was doing, yes? After all, they did not remove him and that would have been their direct responsibility...

yeah, but Stalin was Georgian, so really the Georgians should have gotten rid of him. Russians are totally innocent and angelic people who have never done anything wrong. Not even once. Besides, Georgians PAID for what they did (or rather, what they didn't do), back in 2008. nyah!

SomeOneElse
01-14-2016, 10:34 AM
So, as a Russian, your people must have supported what Stalin was doing, yes? After all, they did not remove him and that would have been their direct responsibility...

Yes, exactly, it was our responsibility that time. I have no idea who else you can name responsible for what a national leader does other than his people.

Nazbaque
01-14-2016, 10:38 AM
Yes, exactly, it was our responsibility that time. I have no idea who else you can name responsible for what a national leader does other than his people.

Well now you're just being naive.

SomeOneElse
01-14-2016, 03:07 PM
Well now you're just being naive.
So you're going to tell me that tyrants pop up out of nowhere with those who work for their regimes and they have nothing in common with people they oppress.
Stalin was surely from Mars.

The Unreasoner
01-14-2016, 05:17 PM
So you're going to tell me that tyrants pop up out of nowhere with those who work for their regimes and they have nothing in common with people they oppress.
Stalin was surely from Mars.
So why haven't you done something about Putin?

Nazbaque
01-14-2016, 10:55 PM
So you're going to tell me that tyrants pop up out of nowhere with those who work for their regimes and they have nothing in common with people they oppress.
Stalin was surely from Mars.

No but you obviously fail to see the middle ground that is reality. In military terms the power is not the size of the army nor the skill of the general, but the sergeants who keep the discipline and make it so that the potential power in the army stays under the command of the general. And this is the only way the potential power of a group can be reached.

Another way to look at it would be the shepard and the sheep. The shepard needs the wool and the sheep provide, but it's not going to be smooth without the sheepdog.

The world we live in works through catalysts. In a group of people the catalyst of power is the sergeant.

SomeOneElse
01-15-2016, 03:52 AM
So why haven't you done something about Putin?
The problem with Putin is that he still enjoys wide support among russians no matter what Obama says. Maybe not 90%, but, according to any poll, he is the most popular politician and the only real candidate to become our next president.

yks 6nnetu hing
01-15-2016, 04:02 AM
The problem with Putin is that he still enjoys wide support among russians no matter what Obama says. Maybe not 90%, but, according to any poll, he is the most popular politician and the only real candidate to become our next president.

so did Stalin. According to the official polls, anyways.

GonzoTheGreat
01-15-2016, 04:39 AM
The problem with Putin is that he still enjoys wide support among russians no matter what Obama says. Maybe not 90%, but, according to any poll, he is the most popular politician and the only real candidate to become our next president.
What a coincidence. Don't give anyone else a chance to say anything in the (state controlled) media, and when someone does become influential anyway prosecute and convict them in fake trials, and it turns out that no one else can be as popular as you are. Who would have thought?

Putin didn't make the mistake that the Shah had made; he keeps control of religion.

SomeOneElse
01-15-2016, 10:50 AM
so did Stalin. According to the official polls, anyways.

I don't think any other objective poll will show that Putin isn't popular. As said, his rating won't be as high as 90+% though.
And yes Stalin is and, what a surprise, still is very popular
Don't give anyone else a chance to say anything in the (state controlled) media, and when someone does become influential anyway prosecute and convict them in fake trials, and it turns out that no one else can be as popular as you are.

I'd say that the opposition in Russia nowadays is much lower than back in the days of USSR and, more importantly, it is less constructive in compare to the dissident movement of 1960s and later. Their problem is not Putin since his regime is not as brutal as Stalin's one and the situation with access to objective information (through internet) is not even comparable.
Regardless of what you think, those who are considered as "non-system opposition" are able to speak on TV and radio, their access to media is undoubtedly very low, but when they are seen they fail to come up with any constructive agenda. All they say most times is they want Putin out (and what they'll do next is a bit shady) or very common since like they shall do their best to fight poverty etc etc, but nothing concrete. So it turns out they are not any better than the current Putin & Co.

Kimon
01-15-2016, 05:23 PM
This one has a certain Dixie feel...

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35326090

A German town has banned male asylum seekers from a public swimming pool after women complained of harassment.
A government official in Bornheim said men from a nearby asylum shelter would be barred until they "got the message" that such behaviour was not acceptable.

The two polls at the close of the article also paint a rather bleak picture.

In the research, published by broadcaster ZDF (in German), 66% of the 1,203 respondents said Germany could not handle the arrivals, up from 46% in December.
Support for Chancellor Angela Merkel, under pressure over her policies to welcome refugees, also fell - with 39% of people agreeing the chancellor was doing a "good job" in this area, down from 47% in December.

Davian93
01-15-2016, 06:35 PM
The Germans just need some breathing space with all these refugees. I'm sure they'll figure out something. Germans are quite good at figuring such things out.

GonzoTheGreat
01-16-2016, 03:39 AM
The Germans just need some breathing space with all these refugees. I'm sure they'll figure out something. Germans are quite good at figuring such things out.
Yeah, they could set some engineers to design a measuring system, or something.

Kimon
01-21-2016, 08:51 PM
So Finland is offering etiquette classes to migrants now...

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35353310

Migrants arriving in Finland are being offered classes on Finnish values and how to behave towards women. Concerned about a rise in the number of sexual assaults in the country, the government wants to make sure that people from very conservative cultures know what to expect in their new home.

"But you can go out to the disco with a woman here," adds Johanna brightly. "Although remember, even if she dances with you very closely and is wearing a short skirt, that doesn't mean she wants to have sex with you."
A Somali teenager pulls his woolly hat over his ears and cradles his head in his hands as if his brain can't cope with all this new information.
"This is a very liberal country," he says incredulously. "We have a lot to learn. In my country if you make sexy with a woman you are killed!" He turns to his neighbour, a Malian man of a similar age to gauge his reaction.
"It's quite amazing," the Malian nods. "In my country a woman should not go out without her husband or brother."

And that's why these classes are backed by the interior ministry and the police. Last autumn three asylum seekers were convicted of rape in Finland, and at the new year there was a series of sexual assaults and harassments similar to those in Cologne and Stockholm. Victims reported that the perpetrators were of Middle Eastern appearance - something Helsinki's deputy chief of police, Ilkka Koskimaki decided to go public with.
"It's difficult to talk about," he admits as we drive in a patrol car through the icy streets of the city. "But we have to tell the truth. Usually we would not reveal the ethnic background of a suspect, but these incidents, where groups of young foreign men," as he puts it, "surround a girl in a public place and harass her have become a phenomenon."

Perhaps if nothing else this recent crisis, and the subsequent rise in right wing anti-immigrant parties in Europe has made them understand America a bit more, even if they are slightly horrified at the possibility of becoming a bit too much like us...

DahLliA
01-22-2016, 06:42 AM
We had those here in Norway for a while.
Until the money started to get scarce and we threw them out (the classes that is :P).

Now there's talk about starting them up again because of the Cologne/Stockholm thing.

I think it's a great idea to be honest.
Not that I think it will stop all the rapes/harassment, but it gets people's expectations more correct, and the whole "we/they didn't know any better" argument is removed.

Kimon
01-27-2016, 07:15 PM
Not quite sure why Germany is picking this particular fight with Russia, especially considering that the victim was only 13.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35424648

Germany has warned Russia against politicising a case involving the alleged rape of a German-Russian girl.
The teen, named only as 13-year-old Lisa F, said she was abducted and raped by migrants, but German police have said there is no evidence of either.
Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said it was "clear" she had not gone missing voluntarily.

German police concluded that sexual contact was not forced in the case of Lisa F, whose full name is protected for legal reasons.
The age of consent in Germany is 14 and prosecutors are investigating two men for child abuse.

So, 13 year old girl. She was missing for 30 hours. She and her family all insist that it was rape, and the police seem to be not-so-subtly insisting that she is just a Russian slut.

Nazbaque
01-27-2016, 08:08 PM
Well the thing about rape is that it's impossible to prove either way in all but the most extreme cases. This is because the damage is not done to the body, but to the mind. Yet this is only part of the greater problem which is that society as a whole treats it as such a taboo. People aren't supposed to talk about it or even think about it and so have only the vaguest sense of what it entails and thus no way to find effective solutions.

Kimon
01-27-2016, 08:29 PM
Well the thing about rape is that it's impossible to prove either way in all but the most extreme cases. This is because the damage is not done to the body, but to the mind. Yet this is only part of the greater problem which is that society as a whole treats it as such a taboo. People aren't supposed to talk about it or even think about it and so have only the vaguest sense of what it entails and thus no way to find effective solutions.

Even if we wish to give the benefit of the doubt to the accused, the girl is 13, and the age of consent in Germany is 14 (Which seems really young by the way. The age of consent is 17 in Illinois, and even in Mississippi it's 16), so at the very least this is statutory rape. However, when the girl and her family are calling it rape, for the police to retort that she should have made sure to put up more of a fight so that she looked more battered is bs. Could the girl be embarrassed and lying? Perhaps. But my confidence in the veracity and competence of the German police isn't particularly high at the moment.

Nazbaque
01-27-2016, 08:38 PM
Even if we wish to give the benefit of the doubt to the accused, the girl is 13, and the age of consent in Germany is 14 (Which, seems really young by the way. The age of consent is 17 in Illinois, and even in Mississippi it's 16), so at the very least this is statutory rape. However, when the girl and her family are calling it rape, for the police to retort that she should have made sure to put up more of a fight so that she looked more battered is bs. Could the girl be embarrassed and lying? Perhaps. But my confidence in the veracity and competence of the German police isn't particularly high at the moment.

And if the crime didn't involve anything sexual? Make no mistake this was definitely a crime. But was it a rape?

EDIT: Sorry read it more carefully now. Yeah it's a rape.

EDIT2: I really shouldn't try to discuss this stuff in the small hours, but I'd say my point still stands. This simply was an extreme case.

The Unreasoner
01-27-2016, 08:40 PM
But was it a rape?
At best, it was statutory rape. So, yeah.

Kimon
01-27-2016, 09:08 PM
And if the crime didn't involve anything sexual? Make no mistake this was definitely a crime. But was it a rape?

How could it not be sexual? She underwent a rape kit and there was evidence of sex. It's clearly at least statutory rape. This can't be sexual assault of a groping only variety. So it's either kidnapping and rape, or statutory rape. Either way the police seem to be going out of their way to discredit the victim and to give far too much benefit of the doubt to the accused. That is not to say that that never happens here, but when it does it usually is because the accused is a football player. This feels like a similar institutional desire to sweep it under the rug.

Just noticed your edit after hitting submit...

Davian93
01-28-2016, 06:32 AM
the age of consent in Germany is 14 (Which seems really young by the way. The age of consent is 17 in Illinois, and even in Mississippi it's 16

Probably a carry over of an older law that has simply never been updated for whatever reason. Looking at Europe as a whole, 14 is the low end but not rare there.

14: Germany, Portugal, Austria, Italy, Hungary, Bulgaria, Bosnia, Montenegro, Serbia, Albania, Macedonia and Estonia

15: Iceland, France, Poland, Czech Republia, Slovakia, Denmark, Sweden, Slovenia, Croatia, Romania, Greece

The rest are 16 or above...but that's a fairly large swath of Europe right there.

Kimon
01-28-2016, 06:56 AM
Probably a carry over of an older law that has simply never been updated for whatever reason. Looking at Europe as a whole, 14 is the low end but not rare there.

14: Germany, Portugal, Austria, Italy, Hungary, Bulgaria, Bosnia, Montenegro, Serbia, Albania, Macedonia and Estonia

15: Iceland, France, Poland, Czech Republia, Slovakia, Denmark, Sweden, Slovenia, Croatia, Romania, Greece

The rest are 16 or above...but that's a fairly large swath of Europe right there.

Notable amongst that group at 16 however is England. Having it at 14 strikes me as allowing for too much of a danger of child prostitution. For instance, Japan has an age of consent of 13...

Davian93
01-28-2016, 07:07 AM
Notable amongst that group at 16 however is England. Having it at 14 strikes me as allowing for too much of a danger of child prostitution. For instance, Japan has an age of consent of 13...

Oh I agree completely. South America and much of East Asia also have very low ages of consent.

Terez
01-28-2016, 07:12 AM
It was 12 in Canada pretty recently, as recently as 2000 if I recall.

Sweden is expelling 80,000 asylum-seekers from the country:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/28/sweden-to-expel-up-to-80000-rejected-asylum-seekers

Davian93
01-28-2016, 07:25 AM
It was 12 in Canada pretty recently, as recently as 2000 if I recall.

Sweden is expelling 80,000 asylum-seekers from the country:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/28/sweden-to-expel-up-to-80000-rejected-asylum-seekers

Those numbers from Sweden are a bit blown out of proportion. Its only a projection of the # of asylum applications they expect to reject over the next year. They expect to get about 160K in applications and reject around 45% of them (which is pretty normal overall) so that's where the "They're gonna expell 80K whargarble is coming from.

GonzoTheGreat
01-28-2016, 07:37 AM
Even if we wish to give the benefit of the doubt to the accused, the girl is 13, and the age of consent in Germany is 14 (Which seems really young by the way.
And if the crime didn't involve anything sexual? Make no mistake this was definitely a crime. But was it a rape?
At best, it was statutory rape. So, yeah.
It would at the very least depend on the age of the male involved, wouldn't it?
Perhaps that age has been revealed, but the BBC article was rather vague on that score.

If she simply ran off for a while and had sex with a 12 year old boyfriend, then I don't think either of the kids involved would be guilty of statutory rape according to German law (in the USA, both might be legally sex offenders, of course). Any grown ups who facilitated this could be in real legal trouble, though. So, all the facts could be as reported without actual rape being involved. I would say that this is something the police should figure out. Believing Vladimir "the Krim just accidentally fell off a passing truck and I picked it up innocently" Putin on anything isn't really sensible.

Nazbaque
01-28-2016, 07:47 AM
The girl is German-Russian? Does she have dual citizenship or is this a racial thing? If she doesn't, then Russia has no say in the matter.

Davian93
01-28-2016, 08:24 AM
I took it to mean either an ethnic slav that had emigrated from Russia to Germany with her family or possibly an person of Slavic background whose family has resided in Germany for at least 1 generation...akin to me calling myself an Irish-American.

GonzoTheGreat
01-28-2016, 11:33 AM
It may be that her family was originally German, emigrated to Russia a few centuries ago, and went 'back' to Germany recently when that became possible.
Alternatively, some rich German got a post order bride from Russia a decade and a half ago, and this girl would then be the (or a) result).

Both are definitely possible, though other options also exist.

The Unreasoner
01-28-2016, 01:53 PM
It would at the very least depend on the age of the male involved, wouldn't it?

I think it was two men over 18. But I'll look.

If she simply ran off for a while and had sex with a 12 year old boyfriend, then I don't think either of the kids involved would be guilty of statutory rape according to German law (in the USA, both might be legally sex offenders, of course).
Most states have provisions in the law for this kind of situation. Not all, so what you are saying is certainly possible. But frankly I'd rather raise the age and risk some overzealous DA prosecuting kids due to 'inartful drafting' than risk allowing 40 year old men entering a fundamentally unequal relationship with a 14 year old girl.

I would say that this is something the police should figure out. Believing Vladimir "the Krim just accidentally fell off a passing truck and I picked it up innocently" Putin on anything isn't really sensible.

I agree here. My only hesitation in this is due to me wondering why Putin is inserting himself at all.

Kimon
01-28-2016, 04:08 PM
I think it was two men over 18. But I'll look.


I'm not sure on the ages, but the stories all make clear that they were adults.

Here's the original BBC article, from a day prior to the one I linked above:

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-eu-35413134

The demonstrators were angry after reports on the popular Russian television station Channel One that a 13-year-old girl from a Russian-immigrant family had been abducted on her way to school and gang-raped by "southern-looking" asylum-seekers.
But German police say that after questioning and examination it was clear that Lisa F was not abducted and not raped. Sexual contact was not forced, say officers. Because the girl is only 13 years old prosecutors are investigating two men for child abuse.

On 11 January Lisa F was reported missing by her family. She re-appeared the next day.
But a TV interview given by a woman identified as the girl's aunt claimed that the girl was raped by numerous men over the 30-hour period while she was missing. The report that sparked the protests was spread on social media and has so far been watched more than a million times on Facebook.

But some German commentators have criticised the Berlin police force for poor communication.
Although investigators are pursuing charges of child abuse, critics say it was not clear from initial police announcements that the case was being followed up.
This initial lack of clarity played into the hands of anti-migrant activists hoping to inflame tensions.
Kremlin-backed media have often been accused of using propaganda to stir up trouble with Russian-speakers living in the Baltics.
But now some fear the same tactic could be being used in Germany, possibly to keep Chancellor Angela Merkel on the back-foot when it comes to the fate of EU sanctions imposed on Russia because of the conflict in eastern Ukraine.

It's possible that the German police are just trying to avoid a rush to judgment, and will eventually press charges, but it is difficult to square that with their public denigrating of the girl's story. Are the Russian's capable of hyperbole and of making use of this story as propaganda? Definitely. Doesn't change the fact that this smells very much like a cover-up gone very badly, all in hopes of limiting public backlash against the refugees en masse, but with the result that this child was completely thrown under the bus by a callous police.

The story links to the Russian version, which I Google translated into something remotely approaching English...

http://www.1tv.ru/news/world/300073

On the morning of January 11 Lisa as usual went to school. At 6 o'clock 42 minutes, she got on the bus and get off at the station "S Bahn Mahlsdorf", is a city train. In the station lobby it never came. The girl disappeared. Find it only managed a day. That happened with the child, she told Aunt Lisa Marina. The parents and the girl herself in deep shock. According to Marina, niece took advantage of the credulity of an alien, like the native of the Middle East. German hardly spoke.
"He came up and said he could bring to the school. She sat in the car. When she got into the car, she saw that he was not alone," - says Marina.
Family fears: because of publicity in the media of the child in retaliation can take a social service. Marina at first did not even want to show his face, but then decided that if fear is repeated even with someone's child.
"The child said that the apartment was only one bed and a mattress on the floor lay. The apartment was nothing else. All they have it thrown on the bed and made their act. There were three of them. They were from visitors," - says Marina.
After 30 hours, according to the aunt, Lisa, beaten and raped thrown into the street. In the Berlin district of Marzahn today was a spontaneous gathering of folk. At the entrance to the "S-Bahn" gathered representatives of the Russian diaspora. Many Lisa know personally.

According to the relatives of Lisa, the police simply refused to look for criminals. Uncle girl tells everyone how his niece, and she underage, guards 3:00 interrogated without their parents and social workers. And then, allegedly, do not even have to open a criminal case.
"The police covers them, the police yesterday pressed on child and forced her to say that she wanted it, she seduced those poor men. Creatures" - says Lisa Uncle Timothy.
The Berlin police comment was not available. Day off.
Meanwhile, the hacker group "Anonymous" has posted on his page on "Facebook" video suggests: what happened with Lisa, is not the only case. The footage is one of the so-called "new Germans", he is already integrated in the language environment, boasting to friends, talking about rape of a minor, which seems to be accomplices stole. Translation softened to a monstrous recognition could show on the air.
"There were 7 people along with it. Two on the floor holding her, the three of us from above, one below, one turned off the light and began to rape her. She was a virgin, idea, man? We have six guys on the bed," - said in the recording.
In the background can be heard the approving laughter. The abuser continues with pride: "I swear to you, man, she was a virgin, we raped her, then she was crying, he could no longer, that we pigs, and we spit on it."
We do not know when or where the video was shot, if this was not the story of someone's monstrous fiction. Hackers Group "Anonimous" urged to call the police who recognizes this person. But the atmosphere of fear and distrust, and fear is now such that there is no guarantee that who learned the hand reaches for the phone, rather than something else. What happened with Lisa, russkoyyazychnaya diaspora promises not to leave without consequences, she intends to seek a fair investigation.

The Unreasoner
01-28-2016, 05:20 PM
They published the girl's name? That doesn't seem right.

Is that standard practice in that part of the world, or some choice of the Russian publication?

Kimon
01-28-2016, 07:27 PM
Most of these cases have tended to be associated with North Africans, and...

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35435270

Germany has unveiled plans to add Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia to its list of safe countries, as it tries to curb growing numbers of migrants.
Economy Minister Sigmar Gabriel said nationals from those countries would now be unlikely to be granted asylum.

We tend to focus on the chaos in Syria and Iraq forgetting that other massive Western blunder, but it certainly seems that Gaddafi was correct about what would happen if Libya fell into chaos...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/12086505/Tony-Blairs-phone-conversations-with-Colonel-Gaddafi-revealed.html

GonzoTheGreat
01-29-2016, 03:32 AM
I've tried to find German language articles on this case, thinking that Germans might know a bit more about it than people further away. Some of what I found was simply translations of the Putin Propaganda, and thus no help at all.
One article which I've found also gives the case from police viewpoint. According to that one, Lisa had sex (or at least a sexual encounter of some kind) with two 20 year old men*. The fact that she is too young makes automatically a crime, and the police is investigating. To protect her privacy they won't give any further information.

Either way, it would technically be a kind of rape. But there is a rather big, and important, difference in what kind of rape it is.
According to the suggestions made by Putin's henchmen, she was grabbed off the street by a gang of new immigrants who violently raped her for 30 hours. According to the suggestions made by the police, she agreed to sex with two men (who should not have accepted her agreement as valid, and are now being sought for this crime) and that's it.

* One a German citizen of Turkish descent, the other with the Turkish nationality. So not really the kind of new immigrants that are currently in the news.

SomeOneElse
01-31-2016, 03:29 AM
Is that standard practice in that part of the world, or some choice of the Russian publication?

In Russia it is illegal to publish personal information about victims of crimes under 18 (since 2013 if I recall), but since this is so excessively politicized, everything is possible.

GonzoTheGreat
01-31-2016, 05:07 AM
Update: according to the latest news I've read, the whole rape story was untrue. The girl had ran away from her own family to escape trouble at home, and had stayed with some friends. Whether or not she even had sex in that period wasn't mentioned in the report I read. If true, then the police did indeed have good reason not to accept her claims as simple truth but to do some fact checking instead.

In regards to the publication of the name: it is fairly common to publish a first name together with the first letter of the surname, in this case "Lisa F". That happens both with victims and with accused/convicted people. There are even legal reasons for doing it this way: it protects the privacy quite well while also allowing people who read the story to follow it (if everyone who features in such a story is designated only as "person", then comprehension would be impeded significantly).

Kimon
01-31-2016, 01:06 PM
Update: according to the latest news I've read, the whole rape story was untrue. The girl had ran away from her own family to escape trouble at home, and had stayed with some friends. Whether or not she even had sex in that period wasn't mentioned in the report I read. If true, then the police did indeed have good reason not to accept her claims as simple truth but to do some fact checking instead.

In regards to the publication of the name: it is fairly common to publish a first name together with the first letter of the surname, in this case "Lisa F". That happens both with victims and with accused/convicted people. There are even legal reasons for doing it this way: it protects the privacy quite well while also allowing people who read the story to follow it (if everyone who features in such a story is designated only as "person", then comprehension would be impeded significantly).

Publishing the name like that almost never happens here except in extreme cases, like the case of Lizzy Seeburg, who committed suicide after Notre Dame covered up the case of the football player, Prince Shembo, that raped her. Shembo somehow still walked away just fine from that, got drafted by the Falcons, but got in trouble again later for murdering his girlfriend's yorkshire terrier. Then they kicked him off the team. In general though, news sources here would never release any information on the victim. For instance the name of the girl that was clearly raped by Jameis Winston (former FSU qb, and current Tampa Bay Buccaneers qb) was, as far as I'm aware (Edit: she went public with her own name apparently), never released. In that case Florida State University and the Talahassee Police Department covered it up, and then were sued by the girl and her family and had to settle with her for $950,000. Hence our surprise at the way in which the police were treating this girl.

As it happens you seem to be correct about her story being unreliable, if not outright fabricated, but I'm still uncomfortable with the way she was treated. The article also doesn't offer an answer for where her injuries came from, and I'm still finding it difficult to trust the police's actions or version of events.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/31/teenage-girl-made-up-migrant-claim-that-caused-uproar-in-germany

Kimon
02-11-2016, 06:26 PM
Looks like Kerry has negotiated a ceasefire.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-35556783

This obviously doesn't include ISIS and al-Nusra, but does it include Turkey and the Kurds? Because if not, then this ceasefire is useless, and it's hard to believe that Erdogan would honor any ceasefire with either the YPG or the PKK. We at least have avoided placating them and refused to wrongfully call the YPG (as we unfortunately have with the PKK) terrorists, as they are the only proximate force that we can trust in the slightest. He was, for instance, publicly bitching about the fact that we were refusing to denounce them as terrorists and help him fight them just yesterday.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-35541003

Davian93
02-11-2016, 06:51 PM
A cease-fire that doesn't include the major adversary in the region? Color me unimpressed.

Great that its happened and maybe it'll lead to the other rebel groups (that 5% that aren't ISIS), Russia, Syria, Turkey, and us to crush ISIS but still...

Kimon
02-11-2016, 07:00 PM
A cease-fire that doesn't include the major adversary in the region? Color me unimpressed.

Great that its happened and maybe it'll lead to the other rebel groups (that 5% that aren't ISIS), Russia, Syria, Turkey, and us to crush ISIS but still...

It's significant if it means that Erdogan will accept a conclusion that leaves both Assad and the Kurds in control of large sectors of Syria. But I find that very hard to believe, and while both men are war criminals that have been butchering their own people (most of the Kurds that Erdogan has been massacring, most notably at Suruc, which was clearly him, are Turks after all) I trust Erdogan even less than Assad. Really sickening that the bastard is in NATO.

Kimon
02-14-2016, 12:55 AM
Lost amongst today's excitement, Erdogan has not taken long to prove why he is little better than ISIS...

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-35571663

Turkey has shelled a Kurdish militia in northern Syria and demanded it retreat from territory it has seized, Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu said.
The US urged Turkey to stop the shelling and focus on fighting the group Islamic State (IS).
Meanwhile Turkey's foreign minister said Turkey was mulling a ground invasion of Syria with Saudi forces.
On Thursday world powers agreed to push for a cessation of hostilities in Syria within a week.
Among the targets shelled by Turkey was the Menagh airbase, which was seized on Thursday from Syrian Islamist rebels by a Kurdish militia group known as the YPG.

The Unreasoner
02-15-2016, 01:20 PM
Maybe Southpaw ought to read this. (http://listverse.com/2016/02/08/10-important-tales-that-show-americas-history-with-refugees/) And it's in a nice, grade-school level, list format.

America has a reputation for audacity in a crisis, at least since we saw how badly the alternatives would turn out. It's time we backed it up, or we risk losing it. And 80 grand a year ain't bad.

yks 6nnetu hing
05-18-2016, 03:58 AM
I don't feel like starting a new thread so I'll just resurrect this one. Much to almost no-one's surprise, there are problems with relocating the refugees from Greece and Italy. However, the anecdotal evidence of "I heard of this one guy...", now the numbers are speaking clearly. A large number of the refugees refuse their refuge if it's not in UK or Germany. linky (http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/826f1bf2-1b75-11e6-b286-cddde55ca122.html#ft-article-comments)




Refugees in Greece refuse to relocate across EU
Duncan Robinson in Brussels and Kerin Hope in Athens


One in seven asylum seekers in the EU’s flagship scheme to relocate refugees throughout the bloc has either refused to be moved or “absconded”, according to figures provided by the Greek government.

The policy, agreed last year after considerable acrimony, was designed to spread more evenly the EU’s refugee burden by relocating 160,000 asylum seekers from frontline states Greece and Italy to other members of the bloc.

But it is being challenged by many asylum seekers’ refusal to go to poorer member states, such as Bulgaria and Romania.


Of the 1,324 people processed as part of the relocation scheme so far, 191 have dropped out or simply disappeared, say Greek officials.

As of last week, Bulgaria had agreed to accept 47 asylum seekers from Greece. But when they were told they were being sent there, 36 withdrew from the programme while another seven “absconded”, according to the Greek government. In the end, only four were moved.

The situation was similar in Romania, where 32 of the 67 asylum seekers destined to be sent there disappeared or quit the relocation programme. In the case of Estonia, eight out of 27 people absconded rather than be sent to the Baltic state.


Even those being sent to rich, diverse countries such as France have opted out of the scheme. Out of 388 asylum seekers due to be sent to France from Greece, 24 absconded while two others dropped out.

Fotini Rantsiou, a former UN staffer working as a consultant on refugee issues, blamed the high dropout rate on asylum seekers’ fears that they will be allocated a country far removed from friends and family.

“As the process drags on, some people get discouraged,” said Ms Rantsiou. “They feel they won’t get to where their relatives are, so they drop out altogether.”

Anastasia Mavrou, a social worker and volunteer at a tent camp near Athens, said it was common for officials to lose track of asylum seekers. “There’s a lot of mobility among the refugees,” she said. “They switch addresses and mobile phone numbers quite often so can’t be reached by the asylum agency.”

Greek and European officials face a backlog of 46,000 asylum seekers and migrants who are stuck on the country’s mainland. Macedonia shut its border with Greece earlier this spring, leaving tens of thousands stranded in worsening conditions within the country.

Although Greek officials had put forward 3,126 for relocation, other EU countries that signed off the deal had agreed to accept just 1,791 as of last week.

“Even in the best of circumstances — manageable flows, low political salience, time for governments to prepare, pilot and adjust — relocation would still perhaps take years to develop as a viable means of distribution,” said Elizabeth Collett, director of the Migration Policy Institute Europe.

“Implemented on the hoof in the midst of political battle, with limited, diverted attention from the Greek government, and unprepared recipient states, these low numbers are disappointing but not particularly surprising.”

The sealed land border and the sluggish progress on relocation has led to a brewing humanitarian crisis in the country.

Despite the Greek government agreeing, in conjunction with the UN High Commissioner for Refugees, to set up accommodation for 50,000 refugees by the end of 2015, Greece is still suffering from a shortfall in accommodation. At the moment, the country has shelter for barely 35,000 migrants on its mainland.

Southpaw2012
05-19-2016, 06:53 PM
Maybe Southpaw ought to read this. (http://listverse.com/2016/02/08/10-important-tales-that-show-americas-history-with-refugees/) And it's in a nice, grade-school level, list format.

America has a reputation for audacity in a crisis, at least since we saw how badly the alternatives would turn out. It's time we backed it up, or we risk losing it. And 80 grand a year ain't bad.

Yeah that's hilarious, asshole. Wanna continue to preach at me about the greatness of the Iran deal as well? Another one of the lies you sheep believed from this bullshit administration. Socialist fuck.

Kimon
05-19-2016, 07:15 PM
Yeah that's hilarious, asshole. Wanna continue to preach at me about the greatness of the Iran deal as well? Another one of the lies you sheep believed from this bullshit administration. Socialist fuck.

Iran is useful, and is far more similar to us culturally than many of the nations in the Middle East with whom we are currently at least nominally allied. Unfortunately, their neighbor, Turkey, another "ally" has gotten progressively scarier under Erdogan's direction. Erdogan is also a bit more topical to this problem, as he is the one who controls (controls is a bit too strong of a definition, but he at least has more sway here than anyone else) much of the movement of these refugees, and he recently fired his PM for trying to stop Erdogan from declaring himself essentially Sultan, and is planning to push through a "terrorism" bill that will allow him to arrest and execute all the Kurdish MPs in his Parliament, or anyone else who stands between him and absolute monarchy. Yet, he is still also a NATO member, and is holding Europe hostage due to the refugee crisis. Iran isn't the problem. Turkey is.

yks 6nnetu hing
05-20-2016, 01:19 AM
Iran is useful, and is far more similar to us culturally than many of the nations in the Middle East with whom we are currently at least nominally allied. Unfortunately, their neighbor, Turkey, another "ally" has gotten progressively scarier under Erdogan's direction. Erdogan is also a bit more topical to this problem, as he is the one who controls (controls is a bit too strong of a definition, but he at least has more sway here than anyone else) much of the movement of these refugees, and he recently fired his PM for trying to stop Erdogan from declaring himself essentially Sultan, and is planning to push through a "terrorism" bill that will allow him to arrest and execute all the Kurdish MPs in his Parliament, or anyone else who stands between him and absolute monarchy. Yet, he is still also a NATO member, and is holding Europe hostage due to the refugee crisis. Iran isn't the problem. Turkey is.

precisely.

You know, I was thinking today, those Syrian refugees who don't want to move to Eastern European countries: I kind of understand *them* - it's much too close to an already aggressive Russia. EU or no EU, if you come from a conflict zone where Russian forces have done at least half the damage, you don't want to be settled next to Russia again. It's not necessarily the most rational response, but it's a very understandable one. On the other hand, those Syrians who do decide to go to, say, the Baltic states or Finland or Poland, they'd probably be more of a security asset than potential danger. Nothing unites better than a common enemy, after all. Now, the rest of them (Iranian, Tunisian, etc) refugees I have no sympathy for refusing to move to the poorer countries.

Nazbaque
05-20-2016, 02:33 AM
Yeah that's hilarious, asshole. Wanna continue to preach at me about the greatness of the Iran deal as well? Another one of the lies you sheep believed from this bullshit administration. Socialist fuck.

Now was this reply really three months worth of thought?

Kimon
05-20-2016, 03:52 PM
Erdogan passed his "terrorism" bill today.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36344314

The Turkish parliament has approved a controversial bill that will strip MPs of their immunity from prosecution.
Pro-Kurdish lawmakers say this is essentially a move to expel opposition members from parliament.

If several HDP MPs are arrested, there are fears it could spark worse violence in Kurdish areas, where people could feel deprived of a voice in parliament. And so this is a dangerous moment for Turkey and a test of how far Mr Erdogan is willing to go to secure his position.

The bill was backed by 376 MPs in the 550-seat legislature in the third and final vote of a secret ballot.
This means it will become law directly without being put to a referendum. It now needs to be ratified by the president.
Some 138 lawmakers, the vast majority from the two opposition parties, could be at risk of prosecution.
Violent scuffles marred parliamentary debates this month, with frustrated lawmakers exchanging fisticuffs and kicks.

GonzoTheGreat
05-21-2016, 02:44 AM
If some of those opposition lawmakers manage to make to an EU country and ask for asylum while Erdogan asks for their extradition, what will the EU do?

Law and order may sound like a good idea to many, but it leaves out the details of which law and who is giving the orders.

Kimon
05-24-2016, 04:17 PM
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36373973

The carrot does not work with Erdogan. It may be time for the stick. We should threaten to expel Turkey from NATO.

This, frankly, should have been done over a year ago. He was clearly responsible for the terrorist attack on the Kurds at Suruc last summer that caused this intended internal strife, and he has also quite clearly been supportive of not only the Muslim Brotherhood in Syria, but also of ISIS, if only in so much as he prefers them to any success by Assad or the Kurds. We should have tried to make use of Putin's brief direct intervention in Syria to try to mend relations with him, and to threaten issuing sanctions against Turkey unless Erdogan stopped attacking the Kurds.

GonzoTheGreat
05-25-2016, 03:08 AM
Using common sense in international politics?
I'm sure that wouldn't work, though at the moment I can't quite think of why not.

yks 6nnetu hing
05-25-2016, 03:22 AM
Using common sense in international politics?
I'm sure that wouldn't work, though at the moment I can't quite think of why not.

Realpolitik leads to giving Nobel peace prizes to people like Kissinger.

On the other hand, being led by moral or ideological values leads to things like the War on Terror.

there really is no right answer, I'm afraid.

Kimon, I must say, I haven't read the NATO paperwork fully but is there any provision for kicking a member out? and if so, what would qualify? Clearly, it's not the 2% rule, seeing as only 3 countries consistently follow that one.

Kimon
05-25-2016, 08:53 AM
Kimon, I must say, I haven't read the NATO paperwork fully but is there any provision for kicking a member out? and if so, what would qualify? Clearly, it's not the 2% rule, seeing as only 3 countries consistently follow that one.

No. The closest this ever came to happening in the past was when Turkey attacked Cyprus, which caused the Greeks (who viewed it as an attack on Greece) to briefly leave the alliance. They eventually rejoined, but no one has ever been expelled from the alliance. There's not really any provision as far as I'm aware that requires member states to be democratic, even if the alliance was at least tacitly created for the purpose of defending democracy against the encroach of communism. Erdogan's Turkey is however the only autocratic state, and the only Muslim state. When Turkey was more democratic, and more Western/European oriented it seemed an apt member of the alliance, even if it always was a bit of an outlier, and the greatest source of friction. But now? Erdogan is a despotic butcher. Having him in the alliance is an embarrassment.

GonzoTheGreat
05-25-2016, 09:40 AM
No. The closest this ever came to happening in the past was when Turkey attacked Cyprus, which caused the Greeks (who viewed it as an attack on Greece) to briefly leave the alliance.
Which, I have to say, was a fairly stupid move by the Greeks. They could have called for help from the other NATO countries instead of walking away from all possible help.

Kimon
05-25-2016, 10:44 AM
Which, I have to say, was a fairly stupid move by the Greeks. They could have called for help from the other NATO countries instead of walking away from all possible help.

Both Greece and Turkey were already NATO members in 1974 when Cyprus descended into civil war, and neither side was exactly in the right. The Greek Cypriots were more responsible for starting it, as they initiated essentially a coup d'etat, and then the Turk Cypriots convinced Turkey to intervene to stop the coup. Greece was irate, but NATO couldn't really do anything, but the Greeks were pissed enough (mainly because the Turks expelled most of the majority Greek Cypriot population from Northern Cyprus when they seized the northern part of the island in their invasion), that they withdrew from NATO, and didn't rejoin until 1980, but what else could they do? Ask the rest of NATO to declare war on NATO-member Turkey? That clearly couldn't happen. More should have been done for the Greek Cypriots though.

Erdogan could, I suppose, by viewed as in violation of Article 2 of the North Atlantic Treaty.

https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/North_Atlantic_Treaty#Article_5

The Parties will contribute toward the further development of peaceful and friendly international relations by strengthening their free institutions, by bringing about a better understanding of the principles upon which these institutions are founded, and by promoting conditions of stability and well-being. They will seek to eliminate conflict in their international economic policies and will encourage economic collaboration between any or all of them.

Davian93
05-25-2016, 11:13 AM
Realpolitik leads to giving Nobel peace prizes to people like Kissinger.

On the other hand, being led by moral or ideological values leads to things like the War on Terror.

there really is no right answer, I'm afraid.

Kimon, I must say, I haven't read the NATO paperwork fully but is there any provision for kicking a member out? and if so, what would qualify? Clearly, it's not the 2% rule, seeing as only 3 countries consistently follow that one.

Kissenger was great at making peace...dead people dont tend to fight back too well.

Davian93
05-25-2016, 11:28 AM
Both Greece and Turkey were already NATO members in 1974 when Cyprus descended into civil war, and neither side was exactly in the right. The Greek Cypriots were more responsible for starting it, as they initiated essentially a coup d'etat, and then the Turk Cypriots convinced Turkey to intervene to stop the coup. Greece was irate, but NATO couldn't really do anything, but the Greeks were pissed enough (mainly because the Turks expelled most of the majority Greek Cypriot population from Northern Cyprus when they seized the northern part of the island in their invasion), that they withdrew from NATO, and didn't rejoin until 1980, but what else could they do? Ask the rest of NATO to declare war on NATO-member Turkey? That clearly couldn't happen. More should have been done for the Greek Cypriots though.

Erdogan could, I suppose, by viewed as in violation of Article 2 of the North Atlantic Treaty.

https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/North_Atlantic_Treaty#Article_5

Greece didn't technically leave NATO, they just left the integrated NATO military infrastructure. They did the same thing that France did when de Gaulle took them out of in the 60s.


Speaking of Greece, if we allowed a military dictatorship to run Greece while they were in NATO and some other questionable governments from other countries (Italy's approximate 5,404 different gov't in the past 50 years come to mind), its hard to kick Erdogan out at this point...and if we were to do so, it would probably open the door to a Turkish/Russian alliance. Do we really want that sort of relationship? Using a stick similar to what was used back then (economic sanctions and a ban on weapons sales to Turkey) could work as well. Better to keep the Turks close than push them down a path to either further Islamic extremism or a closer relationship with Russia.

Kimon
05-25-2016, 12:03 PM
it would probably open the door to a Turkish/Russian alliance. Do we really want that sort of relationship? Using a stick similar to what was used back then (economic sanctions and a ban on weapons sales to Turkey) could work as well. Better to keep the Turks close than push them down a path to either further Islamic extremism or a closer relationship with Russia.

Prior to their recent hostilities during the Syrian Civil War I would have worried more over that as well, but now? Turkey came pretty close to trying to use Article 5 of the treaty to push for united action against Russia. Assad might preclude any aligning between Erdogan and Russia. I'd worry about pushing him more openly into alliance with ISIS, perhaps with delusions of grandeur of eventually becoming caliph of a reasserted Ottoman Empire. Regardless, it certainly feels like something new should be tried, and I'll feel far more comfortable with that something being tried by Obama and Kerry than by Trump.

Kimon
05-28-2016, 08:13 PM
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36407388

When you call your group Cake for Misanthropes it does seem somewhat inevitable that your members would be dicks.