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The Unreasoner
01-12-2016, 06:23 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/13/world/middleeast/iran-holds-us-navy-boats-crew.html?_r=0

You're not making it any easier for the US to stop treating you like a member of the Axis of Evil. And now even Democrats are talking sanctions.

It really comes down to this:
Many American and Middle Eastern officials believe that recent actions by the Iranian Navy against American forces in the Gulf may be intended to embarrass Mr. Zarif and President Hassan Rouhani. The Iranian Revolutionary Guards Corps was responsible for the military side of the nuclear program, and many of its senior officers have objected to the nuclear agreement.

This, along with the many arrests of US citizens and nationals in Iran, are all presumably part of a bullshit hissy fit so the hardliners can save face.

Do they see the price of oil? Do they see what's happening in China? Australia is ******* South Korea is in serious danger, Russia is falling apart at the seams. Germany is in for a year from hell. Even the US won't make it through 2016 unscathed, despite our relatively stable fundamentals.

But sure, play with matches around your crippled, gas-soaked economy.

Davian93
01-12-2016, 06:37 PM
From the sounds of it, 2 of our small zodiac type boats ended up beached on one of their protected military islands in the Gulf...due to engine failure on one of them. Our personnel have been detained but will be released briefly.

Kinda sounds like much ado about nothing.

Kimon
01-12-2016, 06:37 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/13/world/middleeast/iran-holds-us-navy-boats-crew.html?_r=0

You're not making it any easier for the US to stop treating you like a member of the Axis of Evil. And now even Democrats are talking sanctions.

It really comes down to this:


This, along with the many arrests of US citizens and nationals in Iran, are all presumably part of a bullshit hissy fit so the hardliners can save face.

Do they see the price of oil? Do they see what's happening in China? Australia is ******* South Korea is in serious danger, Russia is falling apart at the seams. Germany is in for a year from hell. Even the US won't make it through 2016 unscathed, despite our relatively stable fundamentals.

But sure, play with matches around your crippled, gas-soaked economy.

Seems like much ado about nothing. Their continued refusal to release, or just deport, Jason Rezaian is a real issue. But the brief holding of ten sailors who wandered, maybe intentionally, into Iranian waters? Yeah, unless they renege and don't release them, I honestly don't care.

On a more positive note, Iran also recently did this...

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-35285095

Iran has removed the core of its Arak heavy-water nuclear reactor and filled it with cement, according to the country's Fars news agency.
The fate of the reactor was one of the toughest sticking points in Iran's long nuclear negotiations last year.
Under the terms of the deal, Iran agreed the heavy-water reactor would be reconfigured so it was not capable of yielding material for a nuclear weapon.
The removal of the core is one of the final steps required by the deal.

The Unreasoner
01-12-2016, 06:43 PM
I'm more concerned about optics, now that even some Dems are quietly saber-rattling. But yeah, I agree that this in and of itself is no big deal.

Since when is there a censor on Non? Since when is there a censor at all?

Davian93
01-12-2016, 06:44 PM
Whenever something like this happens, I think it's important to put the shoe on the other foot.

What would our gov't do if 2 Iranian boats with 10 Iranian military personnel was detained in a restricted military space like say the Norfolk Naval shipyard?

Do you think we'd likely detain them? I would imagine we would and then some. Hell, many on the Right would probably call that an Act of War.

The Unreasoner
01-12-2016, 07:07 PM
Whenever something like this happens, I think it's important to put the shoe on the other foot.

What would our gov't do if 2 Iranian boats with 10 Iranian military personnel was detained in a restricted military space like say the Norfolk Naval shipyard?

Do you think we'd likely detain them? I would imagine we would and then some. Hell, many on the Right would probably call that an Act of War.
This is kind of my point, though. Considering the mood of our electorate, our politicians won't see it from their perspective. There are some who would call this an act of war. Certainly people pushing for 'action' against Iran will find a large audience. Any action will likely be economic, and an Iran in economic straits does not bode well for a quiet region.

Davian93
01-12-2016, 07:19 PM
This is kind of my point, though. Considering the mood of our electorate, our politicians won't see it from their perspective. There are some who would call this an act of war. Certainly people pushing for 'action' against Iran will find a large audience. Any action will likely be economic, and an Iran in economic straits does not bode well for a quiet region.

I think if they're handed back over shortly as expected, that'll be the end of it. They did nothing wrong by detaining them. If anything, we owe them an apology for violating their sovereignty even by accident.

The Unreasoner
01-12-2016, 07:52 PM
There was an Onion 'American Voices' piece I looked for but failed to find, talking about a US spy plane crashing in China. The best response was from a guy saying 'If a Chinese spy plane crashed into the US, I'm sure we'd give it right back'.

On that note, I wonder why Trump hasn't called for a ban on Chinese immigrants. Because a metric fuckton of them are engaged in serious industrial espionage. It's almost to the point that any Chinese nationals with a booth at a trade show should be detained as a matter of course (no I'm not advocating such a course of action. But it is a serious problem).

SomeOneElse
01-13-2016, 02:42 AM
You're not making it any easier for the US to stop treating you like a member of the Axis of Evil.
...
play with matches around your crippled, gas-soaked economy.

Thanks for your input.
//Ali Khamenei

GonzoTheGreat
01-13-2016, 05:17 AM
The sailors have been released again.

How evil of Iran, to release people once they've been shown to be innocent. The USA, in contrast, keeps such people locked up (in Guantanamo Bay, for instance) as long as any politician can still use them for scare mongering and such. Obviously, Iran should have kept those sailors captive until the War On Terror was ended with a peace treaty signed by all relevant parties.

Davian93
01-13-2016, 06:42 AM
The sailors have been released again.

How evil of Iran, to release people once they've been shown to be innocent. The USA, in contrast, keeps such people locked up (in Guantanamo Bay, for instance) as long as any politician can still use them for scare mongering and such. Obviously, Iran should have kept those sailors captive until the War On Terror was ended with a peace treaty signed by all relevant parties.

Released completely unharmed after very brief questioning too...in direct contract to previous incidents with British sailors where they were held for weeks, interrogated at length and then paraded through the streets of Tehran.

Its almost as if engagement and diplomacy rather than bullying and threats work.

Again, very important to emphasize how different this would be if the shoe was on the other foot and it was foreign national military members captured entering a US territory illegally.

The Unreasoner
01-13-2016, 04:37 PM
Sorry, meant to post this yesterday.The sailors have been released again.

How evil of Iran, to release people once they've been shown to be innocent. The USA, in contrast, keeps such people locked up (in Guantanamo Bay, for instance) as long as any politician can still use them for scare mongering and such. Obviously, Iran should have kept those sailors captive until the War On Terror was ended with a peace treaty signed by all relevant parties.
Again, I don't think Iran is acting 'evil' here (and SoE, it's Bush's phrase. I'm trying to convey the tone US politics takes). Just stupid. I want this nuclear deal to go over smoothly, Iran to balance the Saudis in the region, and for the life of the average Iranian to improve. But Iranian hardliners are playing with fire. It's election season over here, and even Democrats were calling for new sanctions even before this happened. They're not making it any easier for those calling for diplomatic solutions.

And they don't always let innocent people go. And sometimes they invite them to the country, then arrest them. No I'm not defending Guantanamo (which apparently will finally be closed).

As for my comments on Chinese industrial espionage: if it offended, I apologize. But friends of mine have dealt with it firsthand.

Southpaw2012
01-13-2016, 05:16 PM
The fact we did nothing but "thank" our enemies for releasing our sailors doesn't help very much either. Iran is showing off news coverage of our Navy sailors apologizing, just diminishing our power in the world even more, though this administration is all too happy for that to happen. God-forbid America lead from the front and consider itself a major power. And no, I'm not saying we should have gone forward and bombed the hell out of them, but there should have been a harsh response, but again, that doesn't happen. Especially when it comes to Iran. Josh Earnest's response on CNN was an absolute joke, as well. Even CNN was stunned.

The Unreasoner
01-13-2016, 05:22 PM
The fact we did nothing but "thank" our enemies for releasing our sailors doesn't help very much either. Iran is showing off news coverage of our Navy sailors apologizing, just diminishing our power in the world even more, though this administration is all too happy for that to happen. God-forbid America lead from the front and consider itself a major power. And no, I'm not saying we should have gone forward and bombed the hell out of them, but there should have been a harsh response, but again, that doesn't happen. Especially when it comes to Iran. Josh Earnest's response on CNN was an absolute joke, as well. Even CNN was stunned.
You see what I mean?

Ivhon
01-13-2016, 06:25 PM
So, our military infringes on their sovereign space and they are supposed to bow and scrape?

The Unreasoner
01-13-2016, 06:36 PM
So, our military infringes on their sovereign space and they are supposed to bow and scrape?

Of course not. That isn't what I've been saying at all.

Ivhon
01-13-2016, 06:37 PM
Of course not. That isn't what I've been saying at all.

No. Thats what Southpaw is saying.

Davian93
01-13-2016, 08:07 PM
The fact we did nothing but "thank" our enemies for releasing our sailors doesn't help very much either. Iran is showing off news coverage of our Navy sailors apologizing, just diminishing our power in the world even more, though this administration is all too happy for that to happen. God-forbid America lead from the front and consider itself a major power. And no, I'm not saying we should have gone forward and bombed the hell out of them, but there should have been a harsh response, but again, that doesn't happen. Especially when it comes to Iran. Josh Earnest's response on CNN was an absolute joke, as well. Even CNN was stunned.

You get that we're the ones that fucked up here, right? I mean, we actually violated the national sovereignty of a foreign country and all they did was confirm our alleged story (engine failure and unintentional beaching on their military island) was legit before releasing our people back. I doubt we'd be so gracious if the tables were turned.

Our sailors apologized because they knew they fucked up...big time. If anything, whoever was in command of the mission should be court-marshalled for such a giant clusterfuck.

Southpaw2012
01-15-2016, 07:02 PM
http://www.theblaze.com/contributions/iran-and-obamas-faux-pas-more-questions-than-answers-2/

Read this. The government has been worried about the hacking of GPS's. Thankfully John Kerry thanked our enemies for releasing our captured sailors. Thankfully we continue to weaken sanctions placed upon our enemy for their fantastic behavior of breaking the "treaty" and capturing our sailors. Pathetic joke. We have never been weaker in the eyes of the world.

Davian93
01-15-2016, 07:33 PM
http://www.theblaze.com/contributions/iran-and-obamas-faux-pas-more-questions-than-answers-2/

Read this. The government has been worried about the hacking of GPS's. Thankfully John Kerry thanked our enemies for releasing our captured sailors. Thankfully we continue to weaken sanctions placed upon our enemy for their fantastic behavior of breaking the "treaty" and capturing our sailors. Pathetic joke. We have never been weaker in the eyes of the world.

One, you're an idiot.

Two, "hacking" a GPS wouldn't cause the engine to die which is why they stopped.

Three, sailors are trained to use secondary navigation aids including dead reckoning and even the use of a sextant if need be.

Finally, why hack it exactly? So they could hand them over with no incident less than 24 hours later in accordance with int'l law?

But carry on with your idiotic BS.

fionwe1987
01-16-2016, 04:05 AM
The fact we did nothing but "thank" our enemies for releasing our sailors doesn't help very much either. Iran is showing off news coverage of our Navy sailors apologizing, just diminishing our power in the world even more,
So you're confirming American power is much like a schoolyard bullies? Or a mafioso from a crappy '70s gangster movie?
though this administration is all too happy for that to happen.
Clearly. Republicans need to call hearings on this. Did Obama maybe misdirect the ship when they asked him for directions, so that he could put into action his devious plan to apologize to Iran and feel happy about it?

God-forbid America lead from the front and consider itself a major power.
It does. Which is why it could make any sort of noise about this at all. Most other countries wouldn't have people assuming that their soldiers will get a free pass when they violate sovereign territory!

GonzoTheGreat
01-16-2016, 05:04 AM
Interesting conspiracy theory, which I just now cooked up myself: maybe some of those US sailors sabotaged their own ship in order to scupper the deal with Iran. Wouldn't it be a good idea for the US Navy to investigate them for treason?

Davian93
01-16-2016, 10:19 AM
http://http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/16/middleeast/iran-jason-rezaian-prisoners-freed/index.html?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link (http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/16/middleeast/iran-jason-rezaian-prisoners-freed/index.html?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link)

Damnit Obama!!!

Oh wait, this is yet another indicator that diplomacy tends to work better than bombs.

Kimon
01-16-2016, 11:06 AM
http://http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/16/middleeast/iran-jason-rezaian-prisoners-freed/index.html?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link (http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/16/middleeast/iran-jason-rezaian-prisoners-freed/index.html?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link)

Damnit Obama!!!

Oh wait, this is yet another indicator that diplomacy tends to work better than bombs.

Great news, but anyone want to guess how long it will take for the Republicans to start bitching about the fact that Obama exchanged 7 US-held Iranians for Rezaian and the other 3, and that we agreed also to remove 14 other Iranians from Interpol watchlists? Clearly Cruz would have had the Ayatollah wetting himself in terror and begging our clemency as he released Rezaian and the others with no strings, and Trump would have scared the sh*t out of them to such an extent that Iran would have thrown in an unconditional surrender and mass conversion to Christianity along with the release.

Davian93
01-16-2016, 11:18 AM
Reactions so far:

Ted Cruz: "Praise God! Surely bad parts of Obama's latest deal, but prayers of thanksgiving that Pastor Saeed is coming home."

None of the others have chimed in yet.

Kimon
01-16-2016, 11:50 AM
Reactions so far:

Ted Cruz: "Praise God! Surely bad parts of Obama's latest deal, but prayers of thanksgiving that Pastor Saeed is coming home."

None of the others have chimed in yet.

It will be interesting to see Rubio's reaction...

(From April of last year)

Washington (CNN)Republican Sens. Marco Rubio and Mark Kirk called on Monday for the Obama administration to tie any agreement on Iran's nuclear program to the release of a Washington Post reporter and other Americans imprisoned there.

Rubio, the Florida senator who announced this month his candidacy for president, and Illinois' Kirk said the Obama administration should "demand" their release "prior to concluding a nuclear deal with this brutal regime."

Rubio and Kirk led 19 other GOP senators in penning a letter in March to Secretary of State John Kerry, urging Kerry to bring up the cases of Rezaian and several other Americans jailed in Iran in discussions with Iranian negotiators.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/21/politics/senators-rezaian-release-nuclear-talks/

On a brighter note, at least Kirk will be gone after 2016.

Kimon
01-16-2016, 04:42 PM
Looks like the sanctions will soon be lifted.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-35335078

No doubt we will still see pointless apoplexy and demagoguery from the Republicans, and Congress likely will still vote (and then be vetoed) to restore them on the justification that Jesus might not decide to come back and kill us all unless the sanctions are in place, or some other such nonsense.

Davian93
01-16-2016, 07:13 PM
Looks like the sanctions will soon be lifted.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-35335078

No doubt we will still see pointless apoplexy and demagoguery from the Republicans, and Congress likely will still vote (and then be vetoed) to restore them on the justification that Jesus might not decide to come back and kill us all unless the sanctions are in place, or some other such nonsense.

Good...maybe we can completely open up Cuba too. It'd be nice to move beyond a Cold War mentality and realize its the 21st century. Talking is better than bombing.

Kimon
01-16-2016, 10:41 PM
Great news, but anyone want to guess how long it will take for the Republicans to start bitching about the fact that Obama exchanged 7 US-held Iranians for Rezaian and the other 3, and that we agreed also to remove 14 other Iranians from Interpol watchlists? Clearly Cruz would have had the Ayatollah wetting himself in terror and begging our clemency as he released Rezaian and the others with no strings, and Trump would have scared the sh*t out of them to such an extent that Iran would have thrown in an unconditional surrender and mass conversion to Christianity along with the release.

Not long...

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jan/16/iran-prisoner-swap-jason-rezaian-donald-trump-marco-rubio-ted-cruz

Trump:
In New Hampshire, frontrunner Donald Trump questioned what the US gained from the deal, in which four American-Iranian dual-nationals were released and seven Iranians held on sanctions violations were released or pardoned.

“They’re getting seven people, so essentially they get $150bn plus seven, and we get four,” the billionaire said.

Rubio:
Senator Marco Rubio, answering questions after a town hall event in Iowa on Saturday, said so-called prisoner “swaps” had “created an incentive” for governments around the world to take hostages.

“Governments are taking Americans hostage because they believe they can gain concessions from this government under Barack Obama,” Rubio said.

Christie:
“We shouldn’t have to swap prisoners,” he said. “These folks were taken illegally in violation of international law and they should have been released without condition. But you know, the Iranians have treated this president with disrespect for years and he continues to take it.”

“Remember the last time we had Iranian hostages,” Christie added in a statement, referring to the 1979 hostage crisis. “As soon as Ronald Reagan took the oath of office those Iranians returned our citizens immediately because they knew if they didn’t they would have to face the strength of character and the wrath of Ronald Reagan.”

Oh, and as for lifting the sanctions...

http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/16/politics/obama-iran-nuclear-deal-republicans-reaction/

Washington (CNN)Congressional Republicans were quick to slam the Obama administration Saturday for lifting sanctions on Iran, with House Speaker Paul Ryan pledging to do "everything possible" to prevent the longtime U.S. foe from obtaining nuclear weapons.

House Republicans, who vehemently oppose the deal, quickly pounced on the administration.

"As the president himself has acknowledged, Iran is likely to use this cash infusion -- more than $100 billion in total -- to finance terrorists," Ryan said in a statement. "This comes just weeks after Tehran's most recent illegal ballistic missile test, and just days after the (Iran Revolutionary Guard Corps) detained 10 American sailors. A bipartisan majority in the House voted to reject this deal in the first place, and we will continue to do everything possible to prevent a nuclear Iran."

Let's be blunt. Hezbollah and the Houthi aren't are friends, but neither are either even remotely like ISIS or Al Qaeda. If we want to take issue with financiers of terrorism, Iran is a choir boy compared to our "friends" (the Saudis, Qatar, and Turkey) in the neighborhood.

GonzoTheGreat
01-17-2016, 05:06 AM
Let's be blunt. Hezbollah and the Houthi aren't are friends, but neither are either even remotely like ISIS or Al Qaeda. If we want to take issue with financiers of terrorism, Iran is a choir boy compared to our "friends" (the Saudis, Qatar, and Turkey) in the neighborhood.
I am not sure that being that blunt is what the Republican candidates want to do. They prefer to be subtle, restrained and statesmanlike, whenever possible at all.

Ozymandias
01-20-2016, 12:54 PM
Loving the Christie reference to Reagan. Especially since evidence has been found which reopens the extremely possible "October Surprise" conspiracy theory case.

The fact that Reagan, who went beyond financing terrorists to the point of actually arming them directly, is invoked as the muscle-bound enforcer of the American reputation is ridiculous.

Terez
01-20-2016, 04:57 PM
Loving the Christie reference to Reagan. Especially since evidence has been found which reopens the extremely possible "October Surprise" conspiracy theory case.
Maddow did a segment on that the other night. I haven't been watching her for months but I was in the mood for one of her longsegments and this came up. She didn't even mention the conspiracy theory, but she did point out that, despite the timing, the Carter administration negotiated that deal and it was Carter who went to greet the released hostages, and Carter they thanked.

Davian93
01-20-2016, 05:47 PM
Loving the Christie reference to Reagan. Especially since evidence has been found which reopens the extremely possible "October Surprise" conspiracy theory case.

The fact that Reagan, who went beyond financing terrorists to the point of actually arming them directly, is invoked as the muscle-bound enforcer of the American reputation is ridiculous.

To be fair, the Ayatollah would have likely done that as a giant FU to Carter regardless. The fact that there is a ton of circumstantial evidence that Mr. Reagan also had back channels to him is utterly damning of course. At least he never did anything super crazy like trade weapons to Iran to fund right wing death squads in South America or something. What's that now?

Davian93
01-20-2016, 05:48 PM
Maddow did a segment on that the other night. I haven't been watching her for months but I was in the mood for one of her longsegments and this came up. She didn't even mention the conspiracy theory, but she did point out that, despite the timing, the Carter administration negotiated that deal and it was Carter who went to greet the released hostages, and Carter they thanked.

And had it happened a couple months earlier, Carter might have been President through 1984.