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rand
04-19-2016, 02:29 PM
Figured I'd start a thread with the new season starting this Sunday. There's a few interesting things we know already (I should note that there will be spoilers in this post, even if it's just rehashing what others have found out already about the season):

First, the obvious one: Jon Snow is back. Despite everyone from Kit Harrington himself to every other cast member of the show vehemently denying any sort of resurrection, the fact that he's been spotted in costume during the filming of a scene called the Battle of the Bastards makes it pretty much certain he'll be back at least sometime before episode 9.

And that battle in episode 9 seems pretty cool. Apparently its Jon, the Northmen, and some wildlings vs. the Boltons for control of Winterfell. It's going to be one of those full-episode battle sequences, like The Blackwater, and it's basically just two armies showing up on a field with thousands of men and horses and duking it out for an hour, kind of like the Battle of the Pelinnor Fields in RotK. Should be fun, since nothing like that has ever really been done for a TV show on this scale (thousands of extras/horses, months of shooting, etc.)

Sandor Clegane is back. He was spotted on set, apparently.

The Tower of Joy scene, witnessed as a flashback by Bran and Bloodraven, will appear. You can see young Ned in some of the trailers, and apparently they cast "the best swordsman in Europe" (or something to that effect) as Ser Arthur Dayne. Should be fun to watch, though I'm not sure if they'd reveal R + L = J yet.

This is a thing every year, but I guess there's a chance Lady Stoneheart will actually appear this season. Paul Kaye, who plays Thoros of Myr, is returning and is rumored to be at a trial type of scene.

Anyway, it should be a cool season.

Rand al'Fain
04-19-2016, 09:29 PM
I'll admit, GoT and ASOIAF I kind of fell out with. Why? In the famous words of The Joker:
Why so serious?

I like humor in what I watch. Doesn't mean I won't follow the series through things like this, but aside from that? Yeah.

I do wonder how many more seasons there will be. I mean, how long can they keep dear, sweet Dany stuck in the lands she's supposedly not supposed to rule? How long will Cersei keep avoiding almost certain death (for nearly any other character)? How long until Arya ends Cersei? How long until R+L=J is confirmed (or whatever twist they try and pull)?

rand
04-20-2016, 09:53 PM
I hear you, though to be honest asoiaf is really the only major series I like that isn't already finished. The others that I were really into were WoT (done) and Malazan (still doing stuff, but the main series is done). I've tried getting into other series, like Abercrombie's First Law, but the writing is just so bad lol... I like Rothfuss's Kingkiller Chronicles, which I guess might be turned into a TV series too (which would be cool), but he writes even slower than GRRM does.

FWIW, the producers of GoT have apparently said they think they can wrap up the entire series with only thirteen more episodes after season six, though that would possibly be split into two short seasons as opposed to one long one. It's encouraging for book fans, though, if they think season 6 plus 13 more episodes is enough to cover all of GRRM's ideas for tWoW and aDoS.

Rand al'Fain
04-20-2016, 10:36 PM
I hear you, though to be honest asoiaf is really the only major series I like that isn't already finished. The others that I were really into were WoT (done) and Malazan (still doing stuff, but the main series is done). I've tried getting into other series, like Abercrombie's First Law, but the writing is just so bad lol... I like Rothfuss's Kingkiller Chronicles, which I guess might be turned into a TV series too (which would be cool), but he writes even slower than GRRM does.

FWIW, the producers of GoT have apparently said they think they can wrap up the entire series with only thirteen more episodes after season six, though that would possibly be split into two short seasons as opposed to one long one. It's encouraging for book fans, though, if they think season 6 plus 13 more episodes is enough to cover all of GRRM's ideas for tWoW and aDoS.

I have a couple, but they have a similar problem WOT did, but without a Sanderson to pick up the slack.

There is the Temeraire series, which has 1 book left to be published (last I checked). In short? Napoleonic Wars, but with sentient dragons of all shapes and sizes. Rather interesting really.

But at least it seems the end is in sight for GOT. A Song of Ice and Fire? Looks like someone may need to pick up the slack.

Kimon
04-24-2016, 10:14 PM
Thoughts on the first episode?

-The Dorne plot still seems dumb. Why they thought that this would be better than Arianne continues to mystify me, and they are thoroughly ruining all of the character development in Jaime as well.

-I'm also still not sure what the point of ever having Arya go to Braavos was supposed to be. With all the changes that HBO has made, why couldn't have they fixed this nonsense rather than have Arya just waste time out in the middle of bloody nowhere. Bad enough that we already have Dany killing time doing nothing on the wrong continent, having Arya do likewise is just dumb.

-Shouldn't they be worrying about Jon coming back as a wight? I imagine that they didn't want to resurrect him already in the first episode, but it seems like they're going to need to do something there quick or else shouldn't even his friends be talking about the need to cremate him soon? Is he protected from turning because of the Wall? Othor turned in Castle Black, but he was already dead when they brought him back, and I'm not aware of any other examples of the dead coming back on this side of the Wall. Which side of the Wall was Torwynd on when he died, and when he rose?

Terez
04-24-2016, 10:25 PM
Wights don't just turn because they're in the North. They turn when the Others kill them or find their bodies.

Dunno why you would assume the Arya plotline is dumb just because you don't know where it's going.

We watched it at JordanCon; it was playing in the con suite and then we had a separate suite for the serious watchers who didn't want to put up with people talking during the show. I was in the latter one; we had about 30 people in there. Fortunately the con is pretty much over on Sunday afternoon, or we'd have had more trying to squeeze in there. Only the hardcore con folks stay until Monday.

There was some guy in the room (I don't know him) who said he's known about Melisandre being an old woman for 5 years now and he had to keep it secret.

Kimon
04-24-2016, 10:36 PM
Dunno why you would assume the Arya plotline is dumb just because you don't know where it's going.


That is exactly the problem. Where is it going?

Rand al'Fain
04-24-2016, 11:03 PM
That is exactly the problem. Where is it going?

She's gonna learn the Fus Roh Dah and annihilate all those that have ever harmed her family, followed by killing Ald-I mean Drogon in an epic battle after Jon becomes the best fighter in the world and befriends all those that tried/had him killed and defeats Frie-I mean the Night King. And marries Dany after she ends slavery on Essos and becomes empowered by the moon and a magical quill.

I may or may not have been reading too much fanfiction lately.

Kimon
04-24-2016, 11:39 PM
She's gonna learn the Fus Roh Dah and annihilate all those that have ever harmed her family, followed by killing Ald-I mean Drogon in an epic battle after Jon becomes the best fighter in the world and befriends all those that tried/had him killed and defeats Frie-I mean the Night King. And marries Dany after she ends slavery on Essos and becomes empowered by the moon and a magical quill.

I may or may not have been reading too much fanfiction lately.

It just feels like GRRM needed something for her to do for a few books while the other threads played out. That would be fine if it was involving key character development, but does it? She is training, but training in what? The House of Black and White at its heart still requires that she abandon what she was, yet at some point she must reject that ideology so that she can return to Westeros to use the more mundane aspect of her training even while she rejects the more esoteric. That still is more interesting than what Dany has been up to, but it still feels very much like she is just in a holding pattern while the other plots are slowly getting resolved enough to allow for hers to reintegrate.

Rand al'Fain
04-25-2016, 12:34 AM
It just feels like GRRM needed something for her to do for a few books while the other threads played out. That would be fine if it was involving key character development, but does it? She is training, but training in what? The House of Black and White at its heart still requires that she abandon what she was, yet at some point she must reject that ideology so that she can return to Westeros to use the more mundane aspect of her training even while she rejects the more esoteric. That still is more interesting than what Dany has been up to, but it still feels very much like she is just in a holding pattern while the other plots are slowly getting resolved enough to allow for hers to reintegrate.
I think that may be the problem with having stories with numerous main characters. Especially when spread out so much over the world.

RJ made it work with his series (for the most part, still had all those bathing scenes), but his characters were nearly all tied together in one way or another. It hasn't been until recently that the MCs of Westeros have really begun to interact with one another. Aside from the Lannister/Stark feud of course.

rand
04-25-2016, 12:59 AM
It just feels like GRRM needed something for her to do for a few books while the other threads played out. That would be fine if it was involving key character development, but does it? She is training, but training in what? The House of Black and White at its heart still requires that she abandon what she was, yet at some point she must reject that ideology so that she can return to Westeros to use the more mundane aspect of her training even while she rejects the more esoteric. That still is more interesting than what Dany has been up to, but it still feels very much like she is just in a holding pattern while the other plots are slowly getting resolved enough to allow for hers to reintegrate.
It's character building in the sense that Arya will learn that she can't just abandon the world and start a new life. All her life she's essentially distanced herself from everyone close to her (or who should be close to her). Sansa, Catelyn, Septa Mordane, basically everyone at King's Landing, Gendry, Hot Pie, the Brotherhood, the Hound, etc. She's very much a lone wolf who, as far as she's concerned, should be able to abandon Westeros and her old life. But as Eddard told her in book 1, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. Arya will learn she simply can't abandon everything like the Faceless Men do. Obviously she already knows this, at least on some level, but the realization that she'll need to return to being who she really is and getting help from others is very important, as it will drastically change her philosophy as a character.

That and she'll learn how to warg, but they'll probably cut that from the show.




Yeah, the Dorne plot is just dumb at this point. I guess the producers realized this and just decided to kill everyone. I mean, what was even the point of casting Areo Hotah? I'd say I hope the Sand Snakes do something cool now, but they'll probably all just be killed off next episode...and that would be for the best, to be honest.

I hope they don't screw up the Iron Islands subplot too. The burning of the ships in Meereen seems to be setting up the need for the Iron Fleet to go there. Victorian hasn't been cast that I know of, but Asha/Yara or Euron himself could go (or both of them, or even Theon I guess).

Also I'm pretty sure there's no way Sansa and Theon could have made it more than a few yards into the stream before their legs went numb, let alone crossed it easily and been fine after hugging each other.

Southpaw2012
04-25-2016, 01:30 AM
Thoughts on the first episode?

-The Dorne plot still seems dumb. Why they thought that this would be better than Arianne continues to mystify me, and they are thoroughly ruining all of the character development in Jaime as well.

-I'm also still not sure what the point of ever having Arya go to Braavos was supposed to be. With all the changes that HBO has made, why couldn't have they fixed this nonsense rather than have Arya just waste time out in the middle of bloody nowhere. Bad enough that we already have Dany killing time doing nothing on the wrong continent, having Arya do likewise is just dumb.

-Shouldn't they be worrying about Jon coming back as a wight? I imagine that they didn't want to resurrect him already in the first episode, but it seems like they're going to need to do something there quick or else shouldn't even his friends be talking about the need to cremate him soon? Is he protected from turning because of the Wall? Othor turned in Castle Black, but he was already dead when they brought him back, and I'm not aware of any other examples of the dead coming back on this side of the Wall. Which side of the Wall was Torwynd on when he died, and when he rose?


Doran Martell was completely irrelevant to the tv show. Took up air time and was then killed off randomly with little reason why other than he didn't do enough apparently. At least he's somewhat interesting in the books.

So what's this about Mel? Was she an old witch this whole time, similar to the old crone who confronted Cersei as a child?

GonzoTheGreat
04-25-2016, 04:08 AM
Dunno why you would assume the Arya plotline is dumb just because you don't know where it's going.
That is exactly the problem. Where is it going?
This is Game of Thrones, right?
So obviously, she's going to be killed fairly soon, and her plot line is not going anywhere at all. That's what the series is all about: the futility of hope and expectation.

Davian93
04-25-2016, 07:45 AM
Doran Martell was completely irrelevant to the tv show. Took up air time and was then killed off randomly with little reason why other than he didn't do enough apparently. At least he's somewhat interesting in the books.

So what's this about Mel? Was she an old witch this whole time, similar to the old crone who confronted Cersei as a child?

What an utter waste of an amazing character actor in Alexander Siddig...oh well.

And the Sand Sisters are utterly awful and stupid...but whatever.

Also I'm pretty sure there's no way Sansa and Theon could have made it more than a few yards into the stream before their legs went numb, let alone crossed it easily and been fine after hugging each other.

They'd have probably made it across and then went into hypothermic shock shortly afterward unless there was a giant fire, warm clothes and hot food. Even then, it would have been touch or go. Adrenaline would have given them enough to get across as long as they didnt go in over their chest and thus cooled their heart too much too quickly. The body is surprisingly good at keeping going during such a flight or fight situation.

But yeah, they would have been dead very soon afterward...hugging wouldn't have been enough to get their core temperatures back up in that type of weather.

Terez
04-25-2016, 08:54 AM
That is exactly the problem. Where is it going?
I'm sure we'll find out eventually. I mean, what's the point of fiction if you know what's going to happen?

Rand al'Fain
04-25-2016, 11:28 AM
I'm sure we'll find out eventually. I mean, what's the point of fiction if you know what's going to happen?

Well, they did have Sean Bean portray a fairly important character in Season 1. And died. I'd say that was pretty predictable.

Kimon
04-25-2016, 12:34 PM
I'm sure we'll find out eventually. I mean, what's the point of fiction if you know what's going to happen?

The other plot-lines have a clear (or clearer) purpose. Jon is fighting the Others and learning to accept that his fate is larger than just defending the Wall. Sansa is learning the Westerosi version of daes dae'mar so that she won't fall prey again to Tully incompetence syndrome. Bran is turning into treeboy so that he can help in the Battle against the Others. Sam is at Oldtown retrieving intel on how to help in that same fight. Jaime is earning his redemption in the Riverlands. Tyrion is making everyone think that he is clearly the only one fit to be king. Aegon is reminding everyone how completely useless Dany is. Dany is showing how unfit she is to rule. Cersei is playing the mad king.

Arya? Her story is more interesting than some of those above, but it still seems lacking in a clear purpose. Hers still feels more like GRRM needed something for her to do to fill space until she was needed again in Westeros, than that she had something that she needed to do. Her plot seems like it would have flowed more smoothly had he kept Syrio Forel alive, and had him continue training Arya in Westeros, and had her slowly assassinate one Lannister after another in the past few books than have her go to Braavos, spend a few books training, and then to reject most of that training so that she can return home. If her training didn't require her to abandon her identity, it would seem less of a non sequitur. What exactly is the point of her becoming one of the Nameless? It just seems both counter-productive, and something which she must eventually abandon. That would be fine if it wasn't spread over so many books, or if GRRM just gave a better feel for any indication that he still knew where the main story was going. Arya's lack of direction forward just seems too indicative of the main problem with the whole series. GRRM seems to have lost sight of how to wrap things up.

Davian93
04-25-2016, 01:18 PM
The last book made it abundantly clear that GRRM has no clue where to take the story so we basically got a "Small Collection of Westorosi Stories" instead of a coherent plot.

Its an amazing complex universe with a ton of different little facets and I think its great that GRRM could probably go on for hours about the history of House HalfClaw of the Isle sworn to House Baratheon of Storm's End, etc etc and their vast 700 year history but at the end of the day, you gotta move the plot along.

And he simply isn't...which is why he likely isn't even close to finishing up Winds of Winter and we'll never see the book after that. He's just digging the tires deeper into the mud instead of pushing the car free.

Southpaw2012
04-25-2016, 01:46 PM
The other plot-lines have a clear (or clearer) purpose. Jon is fighting the Others and learning to accept that his fate is larger than just defending the Wall. Sansa is learning the Westerosi version of daes dae'mar so that she won't fall prey again to Tully incompetence syndrome. Bran is turning into treeboy so that he can help in the Battle against the Others. Sam is at Oldtown retrieving intel on how to help in that same fight. Jaime is earning his redemption in the Riverlands. Tyrion is making everyone think that he is clearly the only one fit to be king. Aegon is reminding everyone how completely useless Dany is. Dany is showing how unfit she is to rule. Cersei is playing the mad king.

Arya? Her story is more interesting than some of those above, but it still seems lacking in a clear purpose. Hers still feels more like GRRM needed something for her to do to fill space until she was needed again in Westeros, than that she had something that she needed to do. Her plot seems like it would have flowed more smoothly had he kept Syrio Forel alive, and had him continue training Arya in Westeros, and had her slowly assassinate one Lannister after another in the past few books than have her go to Braavos, spend a few books training, and then to reject most of that training so that she can return home. If her training didn't require her to abandon her identity, it would seem less of a non sequitur. What exactly is the point of her becoming one of the Nameless? It just seems both counter-productive, and something which she must eventually abandon. That would be fine if it wasn't spread over so many books, or if GRRM just gave a better feel for any indication that he still knew where the main story was going. Arya's lack of direction forward just seems too indicative of the main problem with the whole series. GRRM seems to have lost sight of how to wrap things up.

I've gotten the impression that Arya's storyline is aimed at potentially assassinating Dany. But then again, as with most characters in this series, one of them will be killed off before that ever happens because that's the only way GRRM knows how to "shock" his fans.

Davian93
04-25-2016, 02:59 PM
I've gotten the impression that Arya's storyline is aimed at potentially assassinating Dany. But then again, as with most characters in this series, one of them will be killed off before that ever happens because that's the only way GRRM knows how to "shock" his fans.

Be fair...he might also just have both of them get violently raped to "shock" them. He's more than just a 1 trick pony when it comes to shock value.

Rand al'Fain
04-25-2016, 07:07 PM
Be fair...he might also just have both of them get violently raped to "shock" them. He's more than just a 1 trick pony when it comes to shock value.

Right. He's a 2 trick pony in that regard. Violent rape or violent death.

Here's a different shock; Arya and Dany become an item!

Davian93
04-25-2016, 08:30 PM
Right. He's a 2 trick pony in that regard. Violent rape or violent death.

Here's a different shock; Arya and Dany become an item!

He's already had a couple gratuitous lesbian scenes for that reason...with Dany the "star" of one and Cersei in the other.

Rand al'Fain
04-25-2016, 09:59 PM
He's already had a couple gratuitous lesbian scenes for that reason...with Dany the "star" of one and Cersei in the other.

However, Dany doesn't like Starks, even though they never directly did anything to her. If anything, it was the Targaryens that screwed the Starks (in more ways than one, now that I think about how I wrote that).

Honestly, it's just slash that, for once, wouldn't be altogether outside of reality for a fantasy world.

And I didn't mean a one off scene.

Davian93
04-25-2016, 10:03 PM
However, Dany doesn't like Starks, even though they never directly did anything to her. If anything, it was the Targaryens that screwed the Starks (in more ways than one, now that I think about how I wrote that).

Honestly, it's just slash that, for once, wouldn't be altogether outside of reality for a fantasy world.

And I didn't mean a one off scene.

If Dany hooks up with Arya, would that mean that Winter is definitely coming?

Rand al'Fain
04-26-2016, 12:48 AM
If Dany hooks up with Arya, would that mean that Winter is definitely coming?

It'd mean something is coming.

rand
04-26-2016, 01:13 AM
A couple random questions:

Who rules Dorne now that House Martell is dead? Will Ellaria take over, or Obara as Doran's oldest relative (well, sort of)? How will the rest of Dorne react to the assassination of their former ruling house? Granted, I don't care much at this point and the quicker they kill off the Sands the better, but these are questions the show should answer and not just leave us hanging.

Who's the Harpy? I don't recall last season there being much talk about a single leader of the group called the Harpy, but Varys things he/she exists. In the books it's almost certainly the Green Grace, but who could it be in the show? Hizdahr is dead, and there aren't really any other Meereenese characters, so it almost has to be a new character.

Daekyras
04-26-2016, 06:53 AM
A couple random questions:

Who rules Dorne now that House Martell is dead? Will Ellaria take over, or Obara as Doran's oldest relative (well, sort of)? How will the rest of Dorne react to the assassination of their former ruling house? Granted, I don't care much at this point and the quicker they kill off the Sands the better, but these are questions the show should answer and not just leave us hanging.

Who's the Harpy? I don't recall last season there being much talk about a single leader of the group called the Harpy, but Varys things he/she exists. In the books it's almost certainly the Green Grace, but who could it be in the show? Hizdahr is dead, and there aren't really any other Meereenese characters, so it almost has to be a new character.

My question about the Harpy is who is watchin Tyrion and Varys in the square before the ships burn?

They walk into the big empty square and are talking about who runs the Sons of the Harpy and there is clearly a watcher inside one of the buildings.

I assumed this would lead to an attack on them of some kind but instead we got burning boats.

I wonder who it was.

Also- is it safe to assume that GoT and aSoIaF will have completely different endings now? It feels like its going a different direction to the novels.

GonzoTheGreat
04-26-2016, 07:16 AM
I don't think the books will ever have any kind of ending at all. Whether is to be counted that as "different endings" or not I'll leave as an exercise to the readers.

Davian93
04-26-2016, 07:22 AM
My question about the Harpy is who is watchin Tyrion and Varys in the square before the ships burn?

They walk into the big empty square and are talking about who runs the Sons of the Harpy and there is clearly a watcher inside one of the buildings.

I assumed this would lead to an attack on them of some kind but instead we got burning boats.

I wonder who it was.

Also- is it safe to assume that GoT and aSoIaF will have completely different endings now? It feels like its going a different direction to the novels.

As Gonzo stated, an actual ending is quite different than no ending at all so I'd imagine that's a safe assumption.

Daekyras
04-27-2016, 09:18 AM
As Gonzo stated, an actual ending is quite different than no ending at all so I'd imagine that's a safe assumption.

It will get an ending guys.

Martin just wont be the one to do it. The series is far too successful not to get completed.

I wonder who they'll get to fill in? Terry Goodkind swwms to have some of the same...proclivities as Martin...

fionwe1987
04-28-2016, 03:36 AM
It will get an ending guys.
Terry Goodkind

:eek::eek::eek:

Some thoughts:

They show the boat that brought Myrcella's body to KL before the scene where Trystane is killed. So the Sand Snakes were with him, and somehow managed to time his assassination in KL to Doran's in Sunspear? And what happens next? They just sail back? Seriously, the absence of Arianne and her dynamic with Doran seriously renders the entire Dornish plot irrelevant in the show. Might as well have cast Oberyn as the Prince of Dorne, and with his death, have it that Dorne goes to some child who wouldn't make trouble for the Lannisters.

Arya: seems clear to me she is there because the cult of the Many Faced God has something to do with the endgame with respect to the Walkers. We got clues that they helped with the Doom of Valyria. Maybe Arya's job is to recruit them to fight the White Walkers.

Sansa: Will she actually head to the Wall? Or to the Umbers or one of the other Northern Houses? Or to Riverrun or the Vale? Riverrun is due a return, since in the show, it remains unconquered and under the rule of the Blackfish.

Anyone else disappointed that Wyman Manderly and the Frey Pie won't be making an appearance in the show, most likely?

Terez
04-28-2016, 02:14 PM
I doubt Brienne will want to take Sansa to the Wall, since that's where Ramsey will be expecting her to go. Riverrun is more likely, but if Brienne is smart she'll take her across the Narrow Sea somewhere.

Rand al'Fain
04-28-2016, 08:14 PM
I doubt Brienne will want to take Sansa to the Wall, since that's where Ramsey will be expecting her to go. Riverrun is more likely, but if Brienne is smart she'll take her across the Narrow Sea somewhere.

SansaxDany?

I kid, I kid. But at least she'll have Tyrion to back her if they meet.

Davian93
04-28-2016, 08:44 PM
I doubt Brienne will want to take Sansa to the Wall, since that's where Ramsey will be expecting her to go. Riverrun is more likely, but if Brienne is smart she'll take her across the Narrow Sea somewhere.

She should take her to Braavos...and she and Arya can hang out again.

rand
04-29-2016, 12:01 AM
:eek::eek::eek:

Some thoughts:

They show the boat that brought Myrcella's body to KL before the scene where Trystane is killed. So the Sand Snakes were with him, and somehow managed to time his assassination in KL to Doran's in Sunspear? And what happens next? They just sail back? Seriously, the absence of Arianne and her dynamic with Doran seriously renders the entire Dornish plot irrelevant in the show. Might as well have cast Oberyn as the Prince of Dorne, and with his death, have it that Dorne goes to some child who wouldn't make trouble for the Lannisters.
And how did the Sand Snakes get on the boat in the first place? I've seen stills of the note Jaime sent Doran, and it says something like "I'm sending Trystane back on the same boat..." So Trystane, Jaime, Myrcella, Bronn were all on the same boat. So somehow the Sand Snakes crossed the sea and snuck in the boat without anyone noticing.

Arya: seems clear to me she is there because the cult of the Many Faced God has something to do with the endgame with respect to the Walkers. We got clues that they helped with the Doom of Valyria. Maybe Arya's job is to recruit them to fight the White Walkers.
Jaqen also seems to be studying dragons in Oldtown (in the books), possibly with Euron's dragon egg. The question is whether the Faceless Men want to hatch dragons or learn how to kill them or something else.

Sansa: Will she actually head to the Wall? Or to the Umbers or one of the other Northern Houses? Or to Riverrun or the Vale? Riverrun is due a return, since in the show, it remains unconquered and under the rule of the Blackfish.
I'll spoiler this, but apparently we can tell from where the characters have been spotted filming that:
Sansa stays in the North to recruit houses to fight the Boltons, Theon returns to the Iron Islands, and Brienne goes south to Riverrun and meets up with Jaime again.
Also, the siege of Riverrun will happen. Blackfish and Edmure are both back.

Anyone else disappointed that Wyman Manderly and the Frey Pie won't be making an appearance in the show, most likely?
It might. Walder Frey is back with Lothar Frey (or whoever the other named Frey is). They also casted a fat Northern lord, but they've also said Wyman Manderly won't appear, which is weird...seems likely Walder will get some kind of comeuppance, though.

fionwe1987
04-29-2016, 04:27 PM
And how did the Sand Snakes get on the boat in the first place? I've seen stills of the note Jaime sent Doran, and it says something like "I'm sending Trystane back on the same boat..." So Trystane, Jaime, Myrcella, Bronn were all on the same boat. So somehow the Sand Snakes crossed the sea and snuck in the boat without anyone noticing.
Yup. They can't even pretend they were in the boat all along, since the Snakes are shown to be on the dock with Ellaria when the boat heads out.

Also, while Ellaria in the books is a minor character, her plea to end the cycle of violence, and the utter uselessness of vengeance was one of the highlights of aFFC for me. Too bad no one in the show-Dorne has any sense, or more than two dimensions...

Jaqen also seems to be studying dragons in Oldtown (in the books), possibly with Euron's dragon egg. The question is whether the Faceless Men want to hatch dragons or learn how to kill them or something else.
Good point. I suspect controlling Dragons is what they're after.

I'll spoiler this, but apparently we can tell from where the characters have been spotted filming that:
Sansa stays in the North to recruit houses to fight the Boltons, Theon returns to the Iron Islands, and Brienne goes south to Riverrun and meets up with Jaime again.
Also, the siege of Riverrun will happen. Blackfish and Edmure are both back.
Interesting.


It might. Walder Frey is back with Lothar Frey (or whoever the other named Frey is). They also casted a fat Northern lord, but they've also said Wyman Manderly won't appear, which is weird...seems likely Walder will get some kind of comeuppance, though.
Could be, but book Wyman is shown to be conniving guy. And his plan requires Davos to find Rickon, which the show hasn't set up at all.

Terez
05-01-2016, 10:09 PM
FINALLY! All those years of fan speculation, finally satisfied! And we get the Tower of Joy next week! I'm so excited! And Tyrion freeing the dragons was amazing. They even hinted that Bran will be going out into the world again, so possibly he gets a dragon too? That would be awesome. Someone's not going to get one, though. Unless there are more dragons, which is entirely possible.

Kimon
05-01-2016, 10:20 PM
FINALLY! All those years of fan speculation, finally satisfied! And we get the Tower of Joy next week! I'm so excited! And Tyrion freeing the dragons was amazing. They even hinted that Bran will be going out into the world again, so possibly he gets a dragon too? That would be awesome. Someone's not going to get one, though. Unless there are more dragons, which is entirely possible.

Tyrion with the dragons was satisfying, and certaintly makes clear that he'll be one of the other dragonriders, but I was disappointed by the way they showed Jon's resurrection. I thought that they were perhaps going to play off that scene of the aged Melisandre, with her perhaps using stored youth to revitalize him, or something. The scene just seemed off, unfulfilling. I wish they would have at least warged his consciousness into Ghost, and then have the wolf do a bit more in that scene. Still think the third rider is more likely Jon than Bran. Should we now assume that Jon really is definitively Azor Ahai and the Prince that was Promised, or should one be Dany, and the other him?

The scene on the bridge with Euron and Balon was also a bit too drawn out. It would have worked better without so much dialogue. Also uncertain why they changed his eyes.

Davian93
05-01-2016, 11:05 PM
FINALLY! All those years of fan speculation, finally satisfied! And we get the Tower of Joy next week! I'm so excited! And Tyrion freeing the dragons was amazing. They even hinted that Bran will be going out into the world again, so possibly he gets a dragon too? That would be awesome. Someone's not going to get one, though. Unless there are more dragons, which is entirely possible.

Yup...what a great episode all around.

Southpaw2012
05-01-2016, 11:28 PM
Tyrion with the dragons was satisfying, and certaintly makes clear that he'll be one of the other dragonriders, but I was disappointed by the way they showed Jon's resurrection. I thought that they were perhaps going to play off that scene of the aged Melisandre, with her perhaps using stored youth to revitalize him, or something. The scene just seemed off, unfulfilling. I wish they would have at least warged his consciousness into Ghost, and then have the wolf do a bit more in that scene. Still think the third rider is more likely Jon than Bran. Should we now assume that Jon really is definitively Azor Ahai and the Prince that was Promised, or should one be Dany, and the other him?

The scene on the bridge with Euron and Balon was also a bit too drawn out. It would have worked better without so much dialogue. Also uncertain why they changed his eyes.

I think we can assume that Jon is Azor Ahai. The preview to episode 3 had someone stating that people believe he's some god now. Perhaps that's a hint? I don't know, nor do I know if Azor Ahai is considered a god.

connabard
05-01-2016, 11:36 PM
(Having only read books 1-3, and having only read those books years and years ago)
I didn't expect Ramsay to kill Roose like that, and I think it kind of spells the inevitable end of the Boltons. While he will have people supporting him it always struck me that Roose was the brains of that operation, and Ramsay is now kind of going to be like a mad dog let off the leash

I really enjoy these scenes with the Sparrow despite how badly I want him to get knifed, it's really well written dialogue whenever he has a one-on-one scene with someone and his scene with Jaime was great.

As with most, I'm just really excited to see what happens with Tyrion and with everything going on up at Castle Black. Those are the storylines I'm most invested in

Terez
05-02-2016, 12:11 AM
No spoiler tags necessary; this thread is fair game. Roose hasn't died in the books yet.

rand
05-02-2016, 01:20 AM
Awesome episode all around.

What's up with Hodor talking as a kid? He didn't in the books, at least according to Old Nan. Are they going somewhere with this, or is it just a "yeah that'll be cool if we make Hodor talk lol" thing?

Roose's death surprised me a bit, but he isn't really as badass in the show as in the books. I mean, he's pretty badass, but in the books it's almost hinted to be on a supernatural level.

I thought the russerection scene was well done. Everyone kind of shrugs and gives up way too early, but they can hardly show them just standing there for five minutes I guess. It will be interesting to see how Jon re-introduces himself to everyone.

And Euron! Finally! He's one of my favorite secondary (or tertiary) characters in the books. He's like Kurtz in Heart of Darkness, except he's every bit as badass as all the stories would lead you to believe. Though I'll admit I think he should look more like a pirate than Barliman Butterbur, but I can deal with that I guess.

Terez
05-02-2016, 01:32 AM
Awesome episode all around.

What's up with Hodor talking as a kid? He didn't in the books, at least according to Old Nan. Are they going somewhere with this, or is it just a "yeah that'll be cool if we make Hodor talk lol" thing?
And in the books, his name was Walder. I don't see why they changed it; it's not like that would be confusing.

rand
05-02-2016, 03:05 AM
I guess we should just be thankful they didn't change Jon to Jim Snow so as not to confuse him with Jon Arryn...

Davian93
05-02-2016, 09:12 AM
I guess we should just be thankful they didn't change Jon to Jim Snow so as not to confuse him with Jon Arryn...

If they had done that, he would have been called Jim Crow once he took the Black...and that's just a bad path to go down.

Davian93
05-02-2016, 09:19 AM
No spoiler tags necessary; this thread is fair game. Roose hasn't died in the books yet.

With Roose gone, how long till the Manderlys rise up?...not that they've shown up in the books yet but Ramsay probably loses half his support killing his own father. Most of the North already hated the Boltons for their part in the Red Wedding so its not as if Ramsay will have a ton of natural support anyway. With less threat from Kings Landing due to their own infighting, I could easily see the Boltons getting massacred in short order. I'd imagine the show will end up having Jon and the Wildlings kill Ramsay off but the rest of the North wont really be that upset I think. This strikes me as about as smart a decision as Stannis made when he roasted his own daughter.

Rand al'Fain
05-02-2016, 10:29 AM
With Roose gone, how long till the Manderlys rise up?...not that they've shown up in the books yet but Ramsay probably loses half his support killing his own father. Most of the North already hated the Boltons for their part in the Red Wedding so its not as if Ramsay will have a ton of natural support anyway. With less threat from Kings Landing due to their own infighting, I could easily see the Boltons getting massacred in short order. I'd imagine the show will end up having Jon and the Wildlings kill Ramsay off but the rest of the North wont really be that upset I think. This strikes me as about as smart a decision as Stannis made when he roasted his own daughter.

Do you think the North would be willing to let Jon take up the title of Head of the Starks and reclaim Warden of the North for the Stark family? Considering he is a bastard (at least seen as such). I know Robb had legitimatized him just before his death, but few, if any, know about that. The two younger male Starks are thought to be dead and most only recognize men as legitimate successors, which eliminates Arya (still thought of as missing or dead by most) and Sansa.

Davian93
05-02-2016, 10:38 AM
Do you think the North would be willing to let Jon take up the title of Head of the Starks and reclaim Warden of the North for the Stark family? Considering he is a bastard (at least seen as such). I know Robb had legitimatized him just before his death, but few, if any, know about that. The two younger male Starks are thought to be dead and most only recognize men as legitimate successors, which eliminates Arya (still thought of as missing or dead by most) and Sansa.

Where did Rickon end up going in the show? The Umbers? I honestly cant remember. I wouldn't be surprised if he shows back up with the backing of the other northern Lords who aren't super loyal to the Boltons.

rand
05-02-2016, 10:44 AM
With Roose gone, how long till the Manderlys rise up?...not that they've shown up in the books yet but Ramsay probably loses half his support killing his own father. Most of the North already hated the Boltons for their part in the Red Wedding so its not as if Ramsay will have a ton of natural support anyway. With less threat from Kings Landing due to their own infighting, I could easily see the Boltons getting massacred in short order. I'd imagine the show will end up having Jon and the Wildlings kill Ramsay off but the rest of the North wont really be that upset I think. This strikes me as about as smart a decision as Stannis made when he roasted his own daughter.
The big battle for Winterfell is in the traditional episode 9, so Ramsay and his forces will almost certainly survive till then. And I'm assuming it will be relatively even matched, or it wouldn't be very interesting.

Davian93
05-02-2016, 10:48 AM
The big battle for Winterfell is in the traditional episode 9, so Ramsay and his forces will almost certainly survive till then. And I'm assuming it will be relatively even matched, or it wouldn't be very interesting.

Evenly matched at first perhaps...maybe it'll be a Battle of Bosworth ripoff where half of Ramsay's troops turn on him and join up with Jon and Ramsay will be cut down during a desperate charge trying to kill Jon personally.

fionwe1987
05-02-2016, 11:29 AM
Do you think the North would be willing to let Jon take up the title of Head of the Starks and reclaim Warden of the North for the Stark family? Considering he is a bastard (at least seen as such). I know Robb had legitimatized him just before his death, but few, if any, know about that. The two younger male Starks are thought to be dead and most only recognize men as legitimate successors, which eliminates Arya (still thought of as missing or dead by most) and Sansa.

Well, if the choice is between the bastard of Roose Bolton, who engineered the deaths of the armsmen and family of so many Northlords at the Twins, or the bastard of Ned Stark, its pretty clear that being a bastard is eliminated from the question which side to pick. Yes, Ramsay was legitimized, but he is also a kinslayer and now doesn't even have a Stark wife. I doubt the North will have much issue betraying him, except for the Karstarks, since the "Previously..." section helpfully reminded us they aren't for the Starks any more.

Southpaw2012
05-02-2016, 01:41 PM
And in the books, his name was Walder. I don't see why they changed it; it's not like that would be confusing.

For some reason the showrunners believe that fans will get confused with all the similar names. For example, they changed Asha to Yara because Asha sounds like Osha, apparently. However, they do expect fans to pick up on the Rhaegar Targaryan / Lyanna Stark relationship, which they will smack us in the face with next episode with the Tower of Joy. Kinda strange.

Davian93
05-02-2016, 02:07 PM
For some reason the showrunners believe that fans will get confused with all the similar names. For example, they changed Asha to Yara because Asha sounds like Osha, apparently. However, they do expect fans to pick up on the Rhaegar Targaryan / Lyanna Stark relationship, which they will smack us in the face with next episode with the Tower of Joy. Kinda strange.

They've been smacking us all in the head with it for most of the last couple seasons. Its not as if they haven't heavily foreshadowed it. Hell, they even had Maester Aemon all but tell Jon he was a Targaryen.

bowlwoman
05-02-2016, 03:11 PM
They've been smacking us all in the head with it for most of the last couple seasons. Its not as if they haven't heavily foreshadowed it. Hell, they even had Maester Aemon all but tell Jon he was a Targaryen.

ToJ next week? Lyanna makes an appearance on Mother's Day.

Just sayin'.

Southpaw2012
05-02-2016, 03:58 PM
They've been smacking us all in the head with it for most of the last couple seasons. Its not as if they haven't heavily foreshadowed it. Hell, they even had Maester Aemon all but tell Jon he was a Targaryen.

They've been hinting at it, but I don't remember them mentioning Rhaegar and Lyanna ever having a relationship. Robert talks about Lyanna's death back in season 1, but I've talked to two people so far who haven't read the books and they had no idea, other than remembering that Dany had a brother and Ned had a sister.

Terez
05-02-2016, 04:27 PM
They've been hinting at it, but I don't remember them mentioning Rhaegar and Lyanna ever having a relationship. Robert talks about Lyanna's death back in season 1, but I've talked to two people so far who haven't read the books and they had no idea, other than remembering that Dany had a brother and Ned had a sister.
In that scene you mention from season 1, in the crypts, Robert talks about killing Rhaegar in his dreams every day for what he did to her, or something like that. And when Petyr talks to Sansa in those same crypts, Sansa herself mentions that Rhaegar raped and murdered her, and Petyr hints (forget how) that maybe that wasn't true.

Davian93
05-02-2016, 06:21 PM
In that scene you mention from season 1, in the crypts, Robert talks about killing Rhaegar in his dreams every day for what he did to her, or something like that. And when Petyr talks to Sansa in those same crypts, Sansa herself mentions that Rhaegar raped and murdered her, and Petyr hints (forget how) that maybe that wasn't true.

There are a couple of other mentions of it in the show too that I don't quite remember. See Barristan hints about it when he's telling Dany about her uncle. Oberyn mentions something about it too when he's speaking to Tyrion.

They basically hit you over the head with the fact that Rheager didnt kidnap Lyanna and if he didn't force her, she very clearly went willingly out of love.

Every non-book reader I know picked up on it at least.

bowlwoman
05-02-2016, 06:31 PM
In that scene you mention from season 1, in the crypts, Robert talks about killing Rhaegar in his dreams every day for what he did to her, or something like that. And when Petyr talks to Sansa in those same crypts, Sansa herself mentions that Rhaegar raped and murdered her, and Petyr hints (forget how) that maybe that wasn't true.

Yeah, I think LF had some part to play in the whole "abduction" scenario. If you look at the timing in The World Book of the Tourney at HH, Brandon/LF's duel, the False Spring ending, and when Rhaegar left KL, there's a very good chance that LF left Riverrun to head back to the Fingers and was around Harrenhal just about the same time that R/L were there.

Terez
05-02-2016, 06:40 PM
Yeah, I think LF had some part to play in the whole "abduction" scenario. If you look at the timing in The World Book of the Tourney at HH, Brandon/LF's duel, the False Spring ending, and when Rhaegar left KL, there's a very good chance that LF left Riverrun to head back to the Fingers and was around Harrenhal just about the same time that R/L were there.
That makes sense. I always figured that Robert just assumed she was kidnapped, because clearly she loved him.

Davian93
05-02-2016, 06:42 PM
That makes sense. I always figured that Robert just assumed she was kidnapped, because clearly she loved him.

I mean, why wouldn't she love him? He was such a great guy after all...just ask him.

Terez
05-02-2016, 06:46 PM
I mean, why wouldn't she love him? He was such a great guy after all...just ask him.
He loved her so much, he said her name every time he blew his load in another woman. Even after she was dead.

Davian93
05-02-2016, 06:52 PM
He loved her so much, he said her name every time he blew his load in another woman. Even after she was dead.

That's true love right there...

bowlwoman
05-02-2016, 07:00 PM
He loved her so much, he said her name every time he blew his load in another woman. Even after she was dead.

Misplaced modifiers are fun.

Robert was into necro. This is how rumors get started. :D

Kimon
05-02-2016, 07:14 PM
Yeah, I think LF had some part to play in the whole "abduction" scenario. If you look at the timing in The World Book of the Tourney at HH, Brandon/LF's duel, the False Spring ending, and when Rhaegar left KL, there's a very good chance that LF left Riverrun to head back to the Fingers and was around Harrenhal just about the same time that R/L were there.

Most of your abbreviations are obvious, but who the heck is LF?

Terez
05-02-2016, 07:16 PM
LittleFinger

Kimon
05-02-2016, 07:20 PM
LittleFinger

Thanks. I should have thought of that, but I was trying to think of an actual name (rather than a nickname) that would abbreviate to that.

rand
05-02-2016, 10:40 PM
I just hope they include all the Tower of Joy dialogue from the book. It's short enough, but they'll probably cut most of it anyway. :(

Southpaw2012
05-02-2016, 10:56 PM
I just hope they include all the Tower of Joy dialogue from the book. It's short enough, but they'll probably cut most of it anyway. :(


Do we know if Howland Reed was cast or not?

Kimon
05-02-2016, 11:16 PM
Do we know if Howland Reed was cast or not?

Maybe. Robert Aramayo (character name omitted) is listed in the cast alongside Sebastian Croft (as a young Ned Stark) under the subheading of Red Mountains. So this guy is likely either Reed or Dayne.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_of_Thrones_(season_6)

Here's some old speculation about the same dude.

http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2015/09/game-of-thrones-season-6-cast

rand
05-02-2016, 11:29 PM
I think Sebastian Croft was the 10 year old Ned we saw last night. Robert Aramayo is reportedly playing Ned at the Tower of Joy, but the weird thing is that he looks very similar to Jojen...

As far as I can tell, only two other actors have been cast for the ToJ scene: Ser Arthur Dayne and some other knight who was invented for the show and isn't in the books (which is also weird). But there are obviously other people there based on the trailers, so who knows. I tend to doubt they'd cast Howland to be honest, as it would basically just be a shoutout to book fans. He hasn't really been mentioned in the show from what I remember, so any significance would be lost on show-only viewers.

Terez
05-03-2016, 01:02 AM
I just hope they include all the Tower of Joy dialogue from the book. It's short enough, but they'll probably cut most of it anyway. :(
That wasn't real dialogue, was it? I seem to remember it being storytelling-style dialogue.

Young Ned at the TOJ is perfect. I don't see how he looks more like Jojen than Ned, but nevermind his looks; the little bit we saw of his acting was superb. Wish I could say the same for Dayne.

rand
05-03-2016, 01:33 AM
This is Robert Aramayo, the guy playing Ned.http://winteriscoming.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Robert-Aramayo.jpg
I think Arthur Dayne's casting call was something like "the best swordsman in Europe." So who knows how well he can actually act.

The ToJ dialogue is from Ned's dream after Jaime's attack, so unless he's remembering it differently due to it just being a dream, it should be the actual dialogue.

Terez
05-03-2016, 01:45 AM
Ah yes, a dream. That makes sense. Definitely dream-dialogue. The construction was too cadential to be regular speech, if I recall.

This is Ned at the Tower of Joy:

http://i.imgur.com/sFGbyAB.png

rand
05-03-2016, 01:53 AM
Yeah I know. He just looks a lot like Jojen in the other picture, so people thought he might be Howland Reed before it was revealed that he was Ned.

Terez
05-03-2016, 02:26 AM
Robert Aramayo is reportedly playing Ned at the Tower of Joy, but the weird thing is that he looks very similar to Jojen...
That's all rather present-tense, so forgive me for assuming otherwise.

Davian93
05-03-2016, 07:54 AM
Doing the Tower of Joy without Howland Reed just seems wrong.

Daekyras
05-03-2016, 08:27 AM
Man, D+D really love Ramsay.

what was the point of the killing the Baby scene? We already know he's a Bad Guy. Its not like it changed anyones opinion.

RIP Roose. Killed by your own stupidity.

Davian93
05-03-2016, 08:35 AM
Man, D+D really love Ramsay.

what was the point of the killing the Baby scene? We already know he's a Bad Guy. Its not like it changed anyones opinion.

RIP Roose. Killed by your own stupidity.

The funny thing is that I thought Roose would stab Ramsay not vice versa.

Roose was stupid to leave himself alone with Ramsay like that.

Mort
05-03-2016, 09:19 AM
The funny thing is that I thought Roose would stab Ramsay not vice versa.

Roose was stupid to leave himself alone with Ramsay like that.

Not sure knowing how cruel your son can be makes you think that cruelness could be turned toward yourself. Roose also had that "loyal" dude standing right beside them, not even acting surprised when Ramsay stabbed Roose. I guess he was diehard loyal to Ramsay, so much that Ramsay told him beforehand he would kill Roose, which does sounds extremely stupid though.


Not sure regular TV viewers would catch on to the Lyanna/Reaghar connection, surely not all of them at least. I am not surprised if that I'd ask "Who is Lyanna in GoT?" I would get a lot of blank stares thrown at me :)

Daekyras
05-03-2016, 10:49 AM
Not sure regular TV viewers would catch on to the Lyanna/Reaghar connection, surely not all of them at least. I am not surprised if that I'd ask "Who is Lyanna in GoT?" I would get a lot of blank stares thrown at me :)

I would say it was hard to get the connection.

I did love however that with one little scene they established her as a wild spirit and kind.

Also- Hodor renamed Willis. Do you think that was all to try and shoe horn a "what you talking bout Willis?" in?

Terez
05-03-2016, 05:22 PM
Not sure regular TV viewers would catch on to the Lyanna/Reaghar connection, surely not all of them at least. I am not surprised if that I'd ask "Who is Lyanna in GoT?" I would get a lot of blank stares thrown at me :)
You might be surprised how many of them are so into it, they will catch it. There are people like my aunt and uncle who haven't read the books but who search online for whatever spoilers they can find. And whenever they see me, they grill me with questions about the books. They've never read them, but they've been on the Tyrion=Targ train for a long time, and they know all about Lyanna.

bowlwoman
05-03-2016, 05:46 PM
You might be surprised how many of them are so into it, they will catch it. There are people like my aunt and uncle who haven't read the books but who search online for whatever spoilers they can find. And whenever they see me, they grill me with questions about the books. They've never read them, but they've been on the Tyrion=Targ train for a long time, and they know all about Lyanna.

I'm still on the fence about Tyrion = Targ, but they sure tried to push that in last week's episode. Tyrion...the dragon whisperer.

Kimon
05-03-2016, 05:58 PM
Not sure knowing how cruel your son can be makes you think that cruelness could be turned toward yourself. Roose also had that "loyal" dude standing right beside them, not even acting surprised when Ramsay stabbed Roose. I guess he was diehard loyal to Ramsay, so much that Ramsay told him beforehand he would kill Roose, which does sounds extremely stupid though.


I don't think Domeric was ever mentioned in the show, but in the books Roose is certain that Ramsay killed his trueborn heir. And, while also not in the show, Roose also knows about what Ramsay did to Lady Hornwood. Ever being in the same room with him, regardless of their blood relation (indeed perhaps especially due to that) without being in full armor and surrounded by loyal knights is insanely foolish. Clear that one of them was going to soon be dead once all knew the gender of Fat Walda's newborn. Roose never should have entered that room without armor and at least half a dozen loyal knights. I was more surprised that Ramsay killed Fat Walda. Are there really no Frey soldiers at Winterfell in the show? Killing Roose was unavoidable. Killing Walda loses him the Freys. At the very least he should have waited to kill her and Roose's infant son until after he didn't need the Freys anymore. Of course, that's the difference between Ramsay and Roose, and why it's disappointing that the show would have Roose be so naive as to place himself in such a vulnerable position.

Southpaw2012
05-03-2016, 06:13 PM
You might be surprised how many of them are so into it, they will catch it. There are people like my aunt and uncle who haven't read the books but who search online for whatever spoilers they can find. And whenever they see me, they grill me with questions about the books. They've never read them, but they've been on the Tyrion=Targ train for a long time, and they know all about Lyanna.

Oh certainly. Those who have been taken by the Game of Thrones storm will have picked up on it, and like your aunt and uncle, have probably looked into it enough to understand. But I think for the casual viewer, like my uncle who turns on the television at 8 every Sunday night, watches the episode, and then doesn't think about it until he watches the following week, it may be a little difficult. I don't know if the showrunners could've done anything different, as there have been some hints, but we'll see how people react next week.

Terez
05-03-2016, 06:25 PM
Yeah, my uncle has probably studied the Wiki OIAF page for the Tower of Joy by now. He doesn't like to read books, but he's a computer nerd who was writing software in the 80s. He knows how to use teh interwebz.

bowlwoman
05-03-2016, 06:42 PM
My brother is like this. He doesn't read much for pleasure (he's an attorney and does all his reading professionally, he told me), and he doesn't have cable, so he watches anything he can find on YouTube and reads all the chapter synopses and Wiki pages he can find. Then he and I get into a text battle on debating theories.

It's actually the first thing we've had in common for years. ASOIAF...bringing families together.

Terez
05-03-2016, 06:45 PM
haha, yeah my brother is watching it too. He actually read Tolkien before I did, when we were kids, but it took him like 2 years to finish the trilogy because he reads so slow. My mom is watching it too, but I actually got her to read the books. I got my speed-reading skills from her; dad is the slow reader. She's thinking about reading them again.

Southpaw2012
05-03-2016, 07:26 PM
I'm just pissed the show is going to ruin the ending of the books. I guess it's my own fault for continuing to watch, but damn George, write faster...

Davian93
05-03-2016, 07:35 PM
I'm just pissed the show is going to ruin the ending of the books. I guess it's my own fault for continuing to watch, but damn George, write faster...

We're six seasons in and he's put 1 book out in the last 11 years. I mean, I'm just happy we're at least gonna get an ending as opposed to nothing given that he's more likely to die than put out even the next book.

It took him literally 11 years to write Book 4 (which was split in two) of the series. Its been 5 years and the ending of book 6 is nowhere in sight.

rand
05-04-2016, 12:56 AM
While it's certainly frustrating the books take so long to write, keep in mind how incredibly long they are. ASOS and ADWD together are nearly 900,000 words. To put that in perspective:

-This is easily longer than Brandon's two Stormlight books.

-It's more than double the length of the entire LotR (probably closer to triple if the word counts include the appendices).

-900,000 words is roughly the length of the three shortest WoT books: tGH, tDR, tPoD, and WH.

-Storm and Dance combined are just a little shorter than the entire Harry Potter series.

-Your average (good) writer probably bangs out an 80,000 to 100,000 page book every two years or so.


So yeah, it's taking him a long time to write the books. But they're also drastically longer than most other books too. The only author I've seen put out books of these size at a rate of one per year is Steven Erikson for Malazan...and even then none of those books are close to the length of either Storm or Dance.

Davian93
05-04-2016, 12:30 PM
Dance is 357K
Feast is 300K

So he's written 657K in 11 years...hardly impressive.

LoC and FoH were 389K and 354K respectively.

The Stormlight Archive books were 387K and 400K respectively.

He's lazy...and he has no clue where to take the story.

To put it in perspective, Brandon Sanderson has published approximately 3,750,000 words since Feast for Crows came out in 2005.

Speaking of Erikson:

Gardens of the Moon: 209k
Deadhouse Gates: 272k
Memories of Ice: 358k
House of Chains: 306k
Midnight Tides: 270k
The Bonehunters: 365k
Reaper's Gale: 386k
Toll the Hounds: 392k
Dust of Dreams: 382k
The Crippled God: 385k

The only massive book GRRM really put out was Storm at 404K. The rest are no longer than anything RJ, BS or SE has put out.

Sarevok
05-04-2016, 04:56 PM
I agree with casual viewers not picking up on the Lyanna/Rheagar thing. I read the books but didn't get into any forum discussion apart from the occasional thread here on TL and didn't actually catch it untill someone on here posted about it...

As for this week's last scene, with the shots of the wolf right there, I was fully expecting Ghost to get up after everyone else left and to something distinctly not-wolf-like, tipping us of that John might have warged into Ghost. We all "knew" that John had been spotted on set wearing armor (meaning he wasn't getting buried the first episode or something), but it would have been easy enough for the showrunners to fake everyone out by just getting him to run around and make sure to be spotted in uniform. :)

rand
05-05-2016, 01:11 AM
The only massive book GRRM really put out was Storm at 404K. The rest are no longer than anything RJ, BS or SE has put out.
Storm and Dance (which are both over 420,000) are both longer than anything RJ, Erikson, or Sanderson have written.

Look, I'm not trying to say the guy's a speed demon. He's slow, that's obvious. He's just no where near as slow as a lot of people try to make him be.

Davian93
05-05-2016, 10:29 AM
Where are you getting your numbers for those? No where else online shows those numbers and to say 11 years for even 900k is decent is ridiculous....especially since it's really closer to 16 years since he started writing Feast in like 2000 after Storm was finished. So he's published "900k" in 16+ years even if we go by your word count.

rand
05-07-2016, 11:33 PM
I was talking about Storm and Dance, not Feast and Dance.




Apparently Rickon and Osha are back in episode 3. Rickon's the "gift" Ramsay gets. I guess it's the same actor even though he's 14 or 15 now.

Davian93
05-08-2016, 08:05 PM
I was talking about Storm and Dance, not Feast and Dance.




Apparently Rickon and Osha are back in episode 3. Rickon's the "gift" Ramsay gets. I guess it's the same actor even though he's 14 or 15 now.

The fact that Dance was 420K and really had nearly zero plot advancement shows more that GRRM desperately needs a real editor, not that he's somewhat productive.

Davian93
05-08-2016, 10:17 PM
Fuck you for teasing us with the Tower of Joy, HBO!!! You go to hell....you go to hell and you die!!!!

Kimon
05-08-2016, 10:19 PM
Well Jon's scenes were good. Hopefully that ending implied a willingness to lay claim to Winterfell.

The rest of the episode, like this whole season, was a motley of questionable decisions. Was that Umber guy really supposed to be the Smalljon? So the show has decided to have the Smalljon survive the Red Wedding? Whoever that Umber was, he also said that "his father" was dead. The Greatjon shouldn't be dead in either the show or the books. So what the heck is going on there? Is this just a ploy by the Umbers, or is the show just diverging completely from the depiction of the Umbers in the books? Certainly without them holding the Greatjon, any reason for the Umbers to side with the Boltons makes no sense. I also really wish they would have left the Karstarks alone too. This "Harald" character that they made up for the show is dumb. Why not just leave the current usurper to that seat as Alys' uncle Arnolf, and then have played out Alys' plot from the books. Too many of the changes that the show decided to make seem like really awful decisions.

Davian93
05-08-2016, 10:27 PM
Rickon seems like he's a dead man walking at this point. Under what rationale does Ramsay not immediately kill him? He has zero value. Sure, he could use him as a hostage against Jon but he doesnt really play the long game and having a valid Stark heir laying around seems incredibly stupid for Ramsay.

Terez
05-08-2016, 10:27 PM
Fuck you for teasing us with the Tower of Joy, HBO!!! You go to hell....you go to hell and you die!!!!
This. :( And on Mother's Day.... bastards. And the episode was too short. Even the interviews with B&W were done by the end of the hour. That bit of time left near the end made me hope they would go back to the Tower of Joy and watch the rest of that scene. But no. :(

Davian93
05-08-2016, 10:30 PM
This. :( And on Mother's Day.... bastards. And the episode was too short. Even the interviews with B&W were done by the end of the hour. That bit of time left near the end made me hope they would go back to the Tower of Joy and watch the rest of that scene. But no. :(

It was incredibly cheap to cut away like that...just ridiculous to leave it like that after all the rumors and the years of waiting for that answer. To just show us pretty much what we already all knew (other than Howland saving Ned...but we had all kinda guessed that anyway). Stupid fcking HBO.

Kimon
05-08-2016, 10:35 PM
Rickon seems like he's a dead man walking at this point. Under what rationale does Ramsay not immediately kill him? He has zero value. Sure, he could use him as a hostage against Jon but he doesnt really play the long game and having a valid Stark heir laying around seems incredibly stupid for Ramsay.

My only guess is that this is perhaps the show's way of folding in an almost version of Mance Rayder and his women infiltrating Winterfell. Except their version is ridiculous, as there's no "Arya" to save (or even Sansa), and they just handed Rickon over to Ramsay. But perhaps teenage idiot Rickon wanted to go all green beret on The Bastard with Osha, and that random Umber dude, and while they create havoc within, the supposedly dead Greatjon will show up to attack Winterfell, maybe conveniently almost at the same time as when Jon, the Onion Knight, and Tormund all show up with their wildling army.

Davian93
05-08-2016, 10:38 PM
My only guess is that this is perhaps the show's way of folding in an almost version of Mance Rayder and his women infiltrating Winterfell. Except their version is ridiculous, as there's no "Arya" to save (or even Sansa), and they just handed Rickon over to Ramsay. But perhaps teenage idiot Rickon wanted to go all green beret on The Bastard with Osha, and that random Umber dude, and while they create havoc within, the supposedly dead Greatjon will show up to attack Winterfell, maybe conveniently almost at the same time as when Jon, the Onion Knight, and Tormund all show up with their wildling army.

Knowing HBO, they'll probably have Ramsay repeatedly rape Tonks with lots of nudity and then show him castrating Rickon before killing him too. Because violence/nudity is better than plot...and they have to make up for the near lack of any nudity/sex so far this year.

Southpaw2012
05-08-2016, 11:35 PM
Did Howland Reed die? He was wounded, but it showed Ned going up alone.

rand
05-09-2016, 12:58 AM
The Tower of Joy cutaway sucks, but hopefully they'll get back to it in an episode or two, or at some point later this season. I didn't like how they changed Arthur Dayne. His sword is Dawn, that's literally what he's famous for. This was also the first time I think GoT opted away from a realistic fight scene and had Dayne take on four guys at once. I don't care how good he is, he'd be dead (well, dead sooner). That's something I'd expect from Peter Jackson, not GoT.

So will Edd really be the new Lord Commander, assuming he accepts it? Will the others just go along with it, or what?

Yeah...showing Tyrion being bored for like 2-3 minutes straight really isn't all that exciting.

I'm assuming Rickon's storyline is massively different from what it will be in the books at this point. He's on Skagos with Davos searching for him, and Stannis may well have defeated the Boltons at Winterfell. I'm interested to see what they do with Rickon I guess, but I doubt it will mirror the books much if at all.

And cool, Arya can see again. Too bad her facial bones have all been shattered at this point...

fionwe1987
05-09-2016, 01:51 AM
I knew the ToJ scene was too good to be true. :mad:Seriously, this is getting old. I get that the Three Eyed Raven doesn't want Bran to drown himself in the ocean or something, but he seems to be a right bastard to an audience he doesn't know exists, and cuts off the flashbacks just when we're getting to the juicy bits.

Also, Bran can talk to people in the past? I hope that isn't something they build on, because that's just time travel.

As for Rickon, I think it's likely the Umbers are playing Ramsey. Shaggydog's head looked tarred to me, which is a great way of claiming any old wolf is the right direwolf. And I notice that whoever this Umber was, he very carefully made no promises to Ramsay at all. If you want to betray someone, but don't want to make an oath to the Old Gods... this seems like the only way to do it.

As for why Ramsay would keep Rickon alive, the show may just not bother addressing that. But if they want to, they have a way: Ramsey lost Sansa. He can either use Rickon to lure her back. Or use him to tie the North together in the way he can't without Stark connections. But any kind of patience and strategy seems out of character for the cardboard cutout they built in the show, so who knows. If Rickon was only introduced this episode to be killed, but if they have this Karstark character rape him... that would be awful too, but they seemed to hint at it.

Terez
05-09-2016, 06:44 AM
I knew the ToJ scene was too good to be true. :mad:Seriously, this is getting old. I get that the Three Eyed Raven doesn't want Bran to drown himself in the ocean or something, but he seems to be a right bastard to an audience he doesn't know exists, and cuts off the flashbacks just when we're getting to the juicy bits.

Also, Bran can talk to people in the past? I hope that isn't something they build on, because that's just time travel.
I believe Bran did that in the books too? I know he talked to at least one person in the present, which I realize is a different thing, but I thought he had talked to his father at some point.

As for Rickon, I think it's likely the Umbers are playing Ramsey. Shaggydog's head looked tarred to me, which is a great way of claiming any old wolf is the right direwolf.
Now that you mention it, it would be a good parallel to the reason people think Rickon is dead.

And I notice that whoever this Umber was, he very carefully made no promises to Ramsay at all. If you want to betray someone, but don't want to make an oath to the Old Gods... this seems like the only way to do it.
Yup. Thank you for making me feel better about life.

Davian93
05-09-2016, 08:20 AM
Did Howland Reed die? He was wounded, but it showed Ned going up alone.

No...because his kids talk about him as alive in present day...at least they did a couple seasons ago when they themselves were still alive and talking. Also, he had kids after the Tower of Joy so...probably still alive.

Davian93
05-09-2016, 08:23 AM
I believe Bran did that in the books too? I know he talked to at least one person in the present, which I realize is a different thing, but I thought he had talked to his father at some point.

Yup, he spoke to his father who was in the Godswood at Winterfell.


Maybe Ramsay will marry Rickon to reinforce his claim to Winterfell...after he makes him into a woman that is.

Mort
05-09-2016, 09:37 AM
You might be surprised how many of them are so into it, they will catch it. There are people like my aunt and uncle who haven't read the books but who search online for whatever spoilers they can find. And whenever they see me, they grill me with questions about the books. They've never read them, but they've been on the Tyrion=Targ train for a long time, and they know all about Lyanna.

People who are curious can of course find out by searching the Internet. I'm talking about what the TV show has told it's audience up until this point.

I don't think Domeric was ever mentioned in the show, but in the books Roose is certain that Ramsay killed his trueborn heir. And, while also not in the show, Roose also knows about what Ramsay did to Lady Hornwood. Ever being in the same room with him, regardless of their blood relation (indeed perhaps especially due to that) without being in full armor and surrounded by loyal knights is insanely foolish. Clear that one of them was going to soon be dead once all knew the gender of Fat Walda's newborn. Roose never should have entered that room without armor and at least half a dozen loyal knights. I was more surprised that Ramsay killed Fat Walda. Are there really no Frey soldiers at Winterfell in the show? Killing Roose was unavoidable. Killing Walda loses him the Freys. At the very least he should have waited to kill her and Roose's infant son until after he didn't need the Freys anymore. Of course, that's the difference between Ramsay and Roose, and why it's disappointing that the show would have Roose be so naive as to place himself in such a vulnerable position.

In the books, Roose has reason to distrust Ramsay. In the TV show not as much. The books and the show are two different things now :)

I'm not sure if I am interested in continuing with the books, whenever a new one is ready. The show has proven so far to be a far better story than the books are, at least by comparing the latest developments in both show and books. Viewpoints have, so far, been cut that I thought were stupid and time consuming in the books. Lady "what's her bloated smashed in face" again and the whole Arrington debacle.

Daekyras
05-09-2016, 11:15 AM
Knowing HBO, they'll probably have Ramsay repeatedly rape Tonks with lots of nudity and then show him castrating Rickon before killing him too. Because violence/nudity is better than plot...and they have to make up for the near lack of any nudity/sex so far this year.

I was just about to post that.

As for the sword fight- I enjoyed it. It was over elaborate and swinging your sword like that would most likely end with it knocked out of your hand but it was a competent action scene and he was suitably confident.

fionwe1987
05-09-2016, 11:21 AM
I believe Bran did that in the books too? I know he talked to at least one person in the present, which I realize is a different thing, but I thought he had talked to his father at some point.
I had completely forgotten that. Still, I hope it stays subtle.

Now that you mention it, it would be a good parallel to the reason people think Rickon is dead.
Yup. In the book, that was Ramsey(Reek)'s trick. Would be nice if they use that in the show to cause the downfall of Ramsey.

Yup. Thank you for making me feel better about life.
Haha. Let's hope I'm not investing too much sense in yet another cardboard cutout character from nowhere that the show has invented.

Southpaw2012
05-09-2016, 01:46 PM
Bloodraven must've grown his eye back. In the Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, it was stated that Bloodraven had one of his eyes ripped out by Bittersteel.

fionwe1987
05-09-2016, 01:54 PM
Bloodraven must've grown his eye back. In the Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, it was stated that Bloodraven had one of his eyes ripped out by Bittersteel.
Has the show even acknowledged the Three Eyed "Raven" is Bloodraven? Because he said he has waited for Bran for a thousand years, which would imply he's someone else.

Davian93
05-09-2016, 04:23 PM
I was just about to post that.

As for the sword fight- I enjoyed it. It was over elaborate and swinging your sword like that would most likely end with it knocked out of your hand but it was a competent action scene and he was suitably confident.

In real life, one of the four would have just hamstrung Ser Arthur Dayne ending the fight very quickly since he doesnt have eyes in the back of his head and wouldn't be able to see them doing it. But it was still a brilliantly choreographed fight.

Kimon
05-09-2016, 05:43 PM
I'm not sure if I am interested in continuing with the books, whenever a new one is ready. The show has proven so far to be a far better story than the books are, at least by comparing the latest developments in both show and books. Viewpoints have, so far, been cut that I thought were stupid and time consuming in the books. Lady "what's her bloated smashed in face" again and the whole Arrington debacle.

I'll be pleasantly surprised if GRRM ever actually releases Winds of Winter. Anything beyond that would be massive surprise. The show, in my opinion, did a great job in the first few seasons when they didn't have to make as many adaptations. Especially the first season, which was almost a pure adaptation. The quality has really declined in these most recent seasons as they have been forced to write rather than just adapt the plot. Dorne, in my opinion, is the most egregious example of this, but I preferred how GRRM unfolded the actions in the North and the Riverlands, especially regarding Sansa and Jaime (sacrificing the positive character development for both seems a major mistake to me), much more than the changes that the show has made as well. I will agree that excising Lady Stoneheart, if she really has been excised, was one of their few good changes.

Arrington? I take it you're referring to Jon Connington and Aegon? I actually liked that plotline far more than anything Dany has ever done. I'd have had her dragons eat her a few books ago.

Davian93
05-09-2016, 09:48 PM
If Connington/Aegon had been introduced in Storm it would have made a hell of a lot more sense...

rand
05-09-2016, 10:53 PM
Technically Aegon and Connington were mentioned in Clash (the mummer's dragon and the stone beast from Dany's visions in the House of the Undying). So it's not like GRRM just pulled Aegon out of his ass for book 5.

Davian93
05-09-2016, 11:23 PM
Technically Aegon and Connington were mentioned in Clash (the mummer's dragon and the stone beast from Dany's visions in the House of the Undying). So it's not like GRRM just pulled Aegon out of his ass for book 5.

I'll give you that but introducing them as actual characters with a major storyline in Book 5 of a 7 book series is just awful. It'd be almost as dumb as having a major bad guy disappear for 8-9 books and then have him show up from halfway around the world with a giant army during a final big battle just when the good guys thought things were going well.

That'd be just silly though...good authors don't do things like that.

fionwe1987
05-10-2016, 12:09 AM
I'll give you that but introducing them as actual characters with a major storyline in Book 5 of a 7 book series is just awful. It'd be almost as dumb as having a major bad guy disappear for 8-9 books and then have him show up from halfway around the world with a giant army during a final big battle just when the good guys thought things were going well.

That'd be just silly though...good authors don't do things like that.

I'd say GRRM's intro of Aegon and Connington so late in the game is far less egregious. Mostly because Aegon is almost certainly not the real Aegon, in which case he is neither a major hero, nor (due to what we've seen of him till now) a major villain.

Davian93
05-10-2016, 07:31 AM
I'd say GRRM's intro of Aegon and Connington so late in the game is far less egregious. Mostly because Aegon is almost certainly not the real Aegon, in which case he is neither a major hero, nor (due to what we've seen of him till now) a major villain.

Would you be Nae'blis, Fionwe?

Sarevok
05-10-2016, 10:44 AM
Did Howland Reed die? He was wounded, but it showed Ned going up alone.

There was a quick shot of him checking one of their fallen buddies while Ned was running up to the tower. I guess he thought Ned didn't need his protection anymore because all of the protecting force was dead? (pretty stupid imo, there might have been a squire or page up there that might surprise Ned)

Terez
05-10-2016, 10:27 PM
Or that missing third Kingsguard.

Davian93
05-10-2016, 10:30 PM
Or that missing third Kingsguard.

Ser Not Appearing In This Film...

Terez
05-11-2016, 02:19 PM
New TWOW chapter. Arianne. I finally got the page to load...

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/excerpt-from-the-winds-of-winter/

fionwe1987
05-11-2016, 04:55 PM
New TWOW chapter. Arianne. I finally got the page to load...

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/excerpt-from-the-winds-of-winter/

Pretty interesting. So

So Storm's End is taken, and a Lannister-Tyrell army is marching towards it. Aren't they also busy with the Faith Militant in King's Landing? And the Riverlands stuff? They must be starting to get spread pretty thin. Once the Vale throws its hat into the ring, and the Manderleys and Umbers start to show Roose Bolton the finger... well Westeros is not going to know much peace is it?

rand
05-11-2016, 08:18 PM
This is actually only "new" in that it's just being posted online now. GRRM has read it several times at various cons, and there are notes of it online dating back to 2011. IIRC it was originally a part of Dance, but he had to cut it so the book wouldn't be too big. So it could have been written as early as 2005 or so, really. Still, it's cool to finally read the actual chapter and not just notes about it.

This is Arianne II, by the way. Her first chapter is this (http://archive.is/2PS7R) one.

rand
05-11-2016, 11:34 PM
Apparently the titles for episodes 6 and 7 are "Blood of My Blood" and "The Broken Man."

The first is obviously referring to Dothraki, but the second is from Septon Meribald's speech in Feast when Pod asks him if a broken man is an outlaw. Ian McShane is playing a sort of combo of Meribald and the Elder Brother of Quiet Isle, so he'll probably meet up with Brienne and Pod (or someone else) here. The title also likely refers to the Hound, so he'll probably return in episode 7.

Terez
05-12-2016, 05:03 AM
This is actually only "new" in that it's just being posted online now. GRRM has read it several times at various cons, and there are notes of it online dating back to 2011. IIRC it was originally a part of Dance, but he had to cut it so the book wouldn't be too big. So it could have been written as early as 2005 or so, really. Still, it's cool to finally read the actual chapter and not just notes about it.
Yeah, big difference between summaries and the actual chapter. There was some guy on Facebook who claimed to have actually read it online; I think it might have been transcribed by someone at some point and then taken down because of copyright claims. (That happened to us once when we transcribed one of those chapter 2 audiobook promos that preceded the Brandon books.) Also, Wert is in it (Ser Addam Whitehead). I like Wert; I got to meet him in Chicago a couple of years ago.

Davian93
05-12-2016, 08:08 AM
20-30 more years and we might get the whole book.

Mort
05-12-2016, 05:04 PM
Arrington? I take it you're referring to Jon Connington and Aegon? I actually liked that plotline far more than anything Dany has ever done. I'd have had her dragons eat her a few books ago.

Maybe so, but still root for Dany, for no better reason than she was there first :) Throwing in Aegon is just waste of good paper IMO. Unless he dies two sentences into the next book, but then, why have him there anyways? Just stupid.

I'd say GRRM's intro of Aegon and Connington so late in the game is far less egregious. Mostly because Aegon is almost certainly not the real Aegon, in which case he is neither a major hero, nor (due to what we've seen of him till now) a major villain.

Why not the real one? Just for the late intro? If he isn't a villain or a hero, does he really have a place in this story then? Which ultimately is my point I guess :) I get ASOIF is all about the grey characters, or the overly vile ones but you have figured out who to root for and who not to. Aegon is just... a nobody.

Targaryan history is full of half-brothers and the like that ursurp the throne, but is that really time to tell one of those stories here with everything else going on? Screw that I say.

Kimon
05-12-2016, 05:27 PM
Maybe so, but still root for Dany, for no better reason than she was there first :) Throwing in Aegon is just waste of good paper IMO. Unless he dies two sentences into the next book, but then, why have him there anyways? Just stupid.


And yet he and Connington are already in Westeros, while Dany is still neglecting and confining (basically torturing) her dragons, and wasting time mismanaging Slaver's Bay. Their chapters are also far more interesting than hers. Her plot feels like Egwene's politicking in Salidar. Boring. Though, in Egwene's defense, she at least finally started moving her posse towards Tar Valon...

fionwe1987
05-12-2016, 06:38 PM
And yet he and Connington are already in Westeros, while Dany is still neglecting and confining (basically torturing) her dragons, and wasting time mismanaging Slaver's Bay. Their chapters are also far more interesting than hers. Her plot feels like Egwene's politicking in Salidar. Boring. Though, in Egwene's defense, she at least finally started moving her posse towards Tar Valon...

I fail to see how Danaerys becomes worth rooting for if she goes to Slaver's Bay, frees a few for her personal benefit, and leaves the rest to rot under their masters so she can go conquer Westeros.

I get it that the storyline has become bogged down and somewhat boring. But how does that justify questioning the morality of Danaerys's actions? She's trying her best to help people who have spent hundreds of generations in slavery. Aegon has decided to go capturing castles in a fit of pique that Tyrion brought on. As we see in this chapter, that means people being stripped of their crops.

If Aegon had joined his strength to Danaerys, between the Unsullied, the Golden Company and the Dragons, Danaerys's strength might just have been great enough that everyone would have ended up making the decision Torrhen Stark made 300 years ago. Now... now he'll likely make the Smallfolk less receptive to yet another Targaryen invasion.

fionwe1987
05-12-2016, 06:41 PM
Why not the real one? Just for the late intro?
More because of the manner of the intro. We really have no ironclad proof at all of his being real, and no clues beforehand about it either.

If he isn't a villain or a hero, does he really have a place in this story then? Which ultimately is my point I guess :) I get ASOIF is all about the grey characters, or the overly vile ones but you have figured out who to root for and who not to. Aegon is just... a nobody.

No. He serves several narrative purposes. I'm just saying he isn't likely to be one of the three Dragonriders.

Kimon
05-12-2016, 07:43 PM
I fail to see how Danaerys becomes worth rooting for if she goes to Slaver's Bay, frees a few for her personal benefit, and leaves the rest to rot under their masters so she can go conquer Westeros.

I get it that the storyline has become bogged down and somewhat boring. But how does that justify questioning the morality of Danaerys's actions? She's trying her best to help people who have spent hundreds of generations in slavery. Aegon has decided to go capturing castles in a fit of pique that Tyrion brought on. As we see in this chapter, that means people being stripped of their crops.

If Aegon had joined his strength to Danaerys, between the Unsullied, the Golden Company and the Dragons, Danaerys's strength might just have been great enough that everyone would have ended up making the decision Torrhen Stark made 300 years ago. Now... now he'll likely make the Smallfolk less receptive to yet another Targaryen invasion.

Her policies haven't worked, and she has to leave. Slaver's Bay is too far from Westeros for her to rule both. This all seems designed to teach her a lesson in futility and humility.

fionwe1987
05-12-2016, 07:48 PM
Her policies haven't worked, and she has to leave. Slaver's Bay is too far from Westeros for her to rule both. This all seems designed to teach her a lesson in futility and humility.

Maybe, but this is still not evidence that she isn't worth rooting for! At least she's learning humility and futility.

Rand al'Fain
05-12-2016, 08:01 PM
Maybe, but this is still not evidence that she isn't worth rooting for! At least she's learning humility and futility.

Over and over again.

Honestly, other than long dead family she never knew, and a last name she seems "meh" to at most, what is her drive in trying to retake Westeros? She's never been there. She knows no one there. Their customs and concepts are alien to her.

Either she decides to rule Slavers Bay/Essos, or she gets off her ass and actually goes to Westeros and conquers it before it gets drowned in Whitewalkers.

Kimon
05-12-2016, 08:03 PM
At least she's learning humility and futility.

Is she? I said that seems the lesson she is supposed to learn, not that she has learned. She can either stay, massacre the opposition, rule with an iron fist, and hope that in a few generations that her reforms permeate the culture enough to stick. But right now, her reforms don't fit within the economic milieu of the region. So if she leaves, all that she has done will evaporate, and descend into chaos. Which is what happened in Astapor and Yunkai, and will in Meereen. Altering the economics of the region enough to make slavery no longer integral would require either generations of rule or a cataclysmic event, like the Black Death (which is what did it in our history), that kills off so much of the labor force that the survivors have more bargaining power. Right now she is just more problem than solution.

I think this digression was to teach her about limitations, and to give her dragons time to grow and train. Except she has failed in that last as well, as she has confined them, and forbade them from doing what training/foraging that they should. She should have just let them eat random unlucky villagers and paid compensation to unlucky families, or else at least have fed them herself by giving them members of the resistance to eat. They need to be tamed to an extent, but primarily they need to be trained for use in war. She has been as egregiously negligent in that, as she has been egregiously incompetent in her attempt to rule Slaver's Bay. Hopefully this is to teach her what not to do when she goes to Westeros. Hopefully. If she ever leaves.

fionwe1987
05-12-2016, 08:17 PM
Over and over again.

Honestly, other than long dead family she never knew, and a last name she seems "meh" to at most, what is her drive in trying to retake Westeros? She's never been there. She knows no one there. Their customs and concepts are alien to her.

These things are even more true of Aegon. What Danaerys has going for her is that she actually cares about the smallfolk. Whether slaves or not, she thinks about them more than the comfort of lords and ladies. And Westeros needs that. Precisely no one in the current game in Westeros gives a crap about them.

Is she? I said that seems the lesson she is supposed to learn, not that she has learned. She can either stay, massacre the opposition, rule with an iron fist, and hope that in a few generations that her reforms permeate the culture enough to stick. But right now, her reforms don't fit within the economic milieu of the region. So if she leaves, all that she has done will evaporate, and descend into chaos. Which is what happened in Astapor and Yunkai, and will in Meereen. Altering the economics of the region enough to make slavery no longer integral would require either generations of rule or a cataclysmic event, like the Black Death (which is what did it in our history), that kills off so much of the labor force that the survivors have more bargaining power. Right now she is just more problem than solution.
She is hardly "more problem than solution". Before her, there was no one even saying this was a problem. And your real world comparisons don't hold much water because of two things: Dragons, and the fact that Danaerys is soon likely to also have the Khals answering to her. Plot convenience, sure, but they're both very real game changers.

Sure, she has hardly done everything perfectly. But that's not what I'm arguing. I'm saying her [I]cause/I] is correct, and she has more going for her to achieve her goals than anyone else. Both good reasons to root for her success.

I think this digression was to teach her about limitations, and to give her dragons time to grow and train. Except she has failed in that last as well, as she has confined them, and forbade them from doing what training/foraging that they should. She should have just let them eat random unlucky villagers and paid compensation to unlucky families, or else at least have fed them herself by giving them members of the resistance to eat. They need to be tamed to an extent, but primarily they need to be trained for use in war. She has been as egregiously negligent in that, as she has been egregiously incompetent in her attempt to rule Slaver's Bay. Hopefully this is to teach her what not to do when she goes to Westeros. Hopefully. If she ever leaves.
Other might be happy that a character wasn't insane enough to allow her war machines to get used to the taste of human flesh. The aSoIaF fandom never ceases to surprise. Let's have dragons eat babies and people, so a particular story arc can move more quickly! :rolleyes:

Kimon
05-12-2016, 08:32 PM
She is hardly "more problem than solution". Before her, there was no one even saying this was a problem. And your real world comparisons don't hold much water because of two things: Dragons, and the fact that Danaerys is soon likely to also have the Khals answering to her. Plot convenience, sure, but they're both very real game changers.

Sure, she has hardly done everything perfectly. But that's not what I'm arguing. I'm saying her [I]cause/I] is correct, and she has more going for her to achieve her goals than anyone else. Both good reasons to root for her success.


Do you remember what happened in the books in Astapor after she left?

Other might be happy that a character wasn't insane enough to allow her war machines to get used to the taste of human flesh. The aSoIaF fandom never ceases to surprise. Let's have dragons eat babies and people, so a particular story arc can move more quickly!

Do you mean The Others, e.g. best that they aren't learning to eat hominids, so that they don't accidentally try to eat wights later? Or did your phone accidentally correct Westeros to Other? As for your last part, keep in mind, they were mostly hunting (and be compensated for their hunts) sheep and goats. She could have tried to train them that eating the one was right and the other wrong, but instead she locked them up in a cave. And she needs at some point to get them used to fighting against humans. That need not mean eating those humans, but they don't have an actual dragon mother to teach them hunting and fighting, but Dany is supposed clearly to take on this role, both as the "Mother of Dragons", and so that they will obey her, by asserting her dominance, and thus be of use either to conquer Westeros, or if not as conquerors of the living, at least as the fiery air force for use against the wights. The show seems to be giving up on her doing this, and outsourcing that duty to Tyrion. Maybe he's only meant to do that for his dragon (with the third rider at some point doing that for his - though for that dragon's sake, hopefully someone will take some responsibility for its rearing before it crosses path with Jon Snow), and Dany will finally do that for the black dragon. But they need to be trained, and released from their captivity.

fionwe1987
05-13-2016, 12:22 AM
Do you remember what happened in the books in Astapor after she left?
Yup. But that is precisely what she hasn't hastily moved on from Mereen.


As for your last part, keep in mind, they were mostly hunting (and be compensated for their hunts) sheep and goats. She could have tried to train them that eating the one was right and the other wrong, but instead she locked them up in a cave. And she needs at some point to get them used to fighting against humans. That need not mean eating those humans, but they don't have an actual dragon mother to teach them hunting and fighting, but Dany is supposed clearly to take on this role, both as the "Mother of Dragons", and so that they will obey her, by asserting her dominance, and thus be of use either to conquer Westeros, or if not as conquerors of the living, at least as the fiery air force for use against the wights. The show seems to be giving up on her doing this, and outsourcing that duty to Tyrion. Maybe he's only meant to do that for his dragon (with the third rider at some point doing that for his - though for that dragon's sake, hopefully someone will take some responsibility for its rearing before it crosses path with Jon Snow), and Dany will finally do that for the black dragon. But they need to be trained, and released from their captivity.
But she didn't confine them till Drogon ate a human. And it's easy to say "she should control them" or "she should teach them", but not even her recent ancestors were very good at that. And she certainly has access to no collection of knowledge, and no way to get her hands on what is known of dragon rearing.

What she has are nukes that can think for themselves. Caution with them is appropriate. Even if it does mean we the readers have to slog through boring chapters.

Davian93
05-13-2016, 05:41 PM
Even if it does mean we the readers have to slog through boring chapters.

Its supposed to be a fantasy adventure novel series...not a documentary on the trials and tribulations of raising dragons in Westerns.

Kimon
05-15-2016, 10:14 PM
Clearly changing Asha Greyjoy's name to avoid confusion with Osha was of utmost importance.

Actually a pretty decent episode tonight, heck, even Dany finally did something, which for GOT obviously meant killed some people and got naked, but still, better than her usual nothing.

Terez
05-15-2016, 10:18 PM
Mereenese knot, untied. That scene kicked ass.

Tyrion's 7-year plan gives her an excuse to leave Essos and get to taking the Iron Throne, though I suspect Tyrion will be the one coming back in 7 years to enforce that deal. Which is fitting.

fionwe1987
05-15-2016, 11:30 PM
Mereenese knot, untied. That scene kicked ass.
Totally! I liked the episode a lot, actually.

It should have been called "The women take charge", or "The War of the Three/Five Queens".

Very quickly and well, they changed the directions of multiple plot arcs.

Tyrion's 7-year plan gives her an excuse to leave Essos and get to taking the Iron Throne, though I suspect Tyrion will be the one coming back in 7 years to enforce that deal. Which is fitting.

I doubt the plan will hold. There's Grey Worm's words. More importantly, in the discussion of the episode, Benioff or Weiss said this was inspired Lincoln's initial efforts to treat with the South. Given what happened next there, I suspect what's gonna happen is that Dany will first have to lead the united Khalsar against the slaver cities and free them.

Either Yara and or Theon reach her before that, or after, just in time to ferry her to Westeros. Either way, by the end of the season I predict the Slave cities will be united under Missandei and Grey Worm, and Dany will have finally set sail to Westeros, Dragons and Dothraki in tow, on Ironborn ships.

Set piece two will be the battle for Winterfell.

Three will be King's Landing. I suspect the Lannister-Tyrell alliance will win and exact terrible vengeance, paving the way for the small folk to desperately wish for Dany's arrival.

Terez
05-15-2016, 11:33 PM
I wonder who will kill Kevan, if not Varys.

I also wonder how many Tormund/Brienne shippers were born tonight. Count me in!

Davian93
05-16-2016, 11:52 AM
I guess Dany is 100% fireproof for the show at least...despite GRRM statements to the contrary on her fireproofness in the books.

About time they moved that stupid plot along though.

Davian93
05-16-2016, 11:55 AM
I wonder who will kill Kevan, if not Varys.

I also wonder how many Tormund/Brienne shippers were born tonight. Count me in!

If Dany is true to form, she'll exile Tyrion for violating her intent with the slavers and then she'll go bed down with 2-3 different mercenary captains for 3 more seasons rather than reward him for his intelligence and political acumen.

The entire scene with Tyrion, I wanted to scream at my tv, "Just keep your idiot mouth shut, Missandei!!!"

Kimon
05-16-2016, 12:57 PM
If Dany is true to form, she'll exile Tyrion for violating her intent with the slavers and then she'll go bed down with 2-3 different mercenary captains for 3 more seasons rather than reward him for his intelligence and political acumen.

The entire scene with Tyrion, I wanted to scream at my tv, "Just keep your idiot mouth shut, Missandei!!!"

There's also the issue of how she intends to control the natural inclinations of her newly acquired horde of dothraki. Their primary income seems pretty exclusively drawn from a mix of slaving and pillaging. They'll be useful against Astapor and Yunkai, but they'll obviously also want to rape and enslave the survivors of any city, town, or village that they sack here, or in Westeros.

fionwe1987
05-16-2016, 01:13 PM
There's also the issue of how she intends to control the natural inclinations of her newly acquired horde of dothraki. Their primary income seems pretty exclusively drawn from a mix of slaving and pillaging. They'll be useful against Astapor and Yunkai, but they'll obviously also want to rape and enslave the survivors of any city, town, or village that they sack here, or in Westeros.

I suspect this just won't come up as an issue in the show. They're going to be shown as completely in her pocket.

bowlwoman
05-16-2016, 03:59 PM
Apparently the titles for episodes 6 and 7 are "Blood of My Blood" and "The Broken Man."

The first is obviously referring to Dothraki

Tower of Joy, partie deux?

I also wonder how many Tormund/Brienne shippers were born tonight. Count me in!

Me! Me! That scene was the only one I rewound and watched again. Sexy eyes! :D

DahLliA
05-16-2016, 05:18 PM
Gotta say that the end of episode 4 was really bad-ass.

Rand al'Fain
05-16-2016, 08:16 PM
If Dany is true to form, she'll exile Tyrion for violating her intent with the slavers and then she'll go bed down with 2-3 different mercenary captains for 3 more seasons rather than reward him for his intelligence and political acumen.

The entire scene with Tyrion, I wanted to scream at my tv, "Just keep your idiot mouth shut, Missandei!!!"

So, Dany got pissed at Tyrion for being intelligent?

Yeesh. Even though he didn't like Tyrion, even Tywin recognized that Tyrion was gifted with intelligence.

Either Dany's naivete is showing itself (again) or she was written stupid for that part.

Terez
05-16-2016, 08:41 PM
So, Dany got pissed at Tyrion for being intelligent?

Yeesh. Even though he didn't like Tyrion, even Tywin recognized that Tyrion was gifted with intelligence.

Either Dany's naivete is showing itself (again) or she was written stupid for that part.
No, this is Dav's fantasy about what will happen. Just watch the show.

Davian93
05-16-2016, 09:35 PM
No, this is Dav's fantasy about what will happen. Just watch the show.

Not a fantasy, just a prediction based on her previous behavior on the show. Hell, look how she treated Jorah when he came back to save her.

The show hasn't really built her up as some sort of brilliant leader or anything.

rand
05-16-2016, 11:41 PM
I know they don't want to get into as many convoluted plots as book 6 probably will, but it seems way too easy that Dany is now in control of all the Dothraki because she murdered their leaders. I mean, wouldn't at least some of them be a little upset at her for this? Also, were the khals covered in lighter fluid or something? Even if they're on dry grass, pushing a brazier over in their general direction shouldn't kill them instantly.

I saw an interesting theory online that the secret the High Sparrow told Tommen was that Loras revealed the Tyrell's plan to kill Joffrey. So Cersei's plan is to basically have the Tyrells and sparrows kill each other, then kill whoever wins. I assume Cersei doesn't know that it was Olenna specifically who killed Joffrey, or else nothing would have stopped her from physically attacking Olenna in the council room.

Also, didn't Jon walk out of Castle Black in the previous episode? Did he come back to get some clean underwear or something? It's weird/interesting to see Jon and Sansa together, as they never had a prior scene together in either books or show. Sansa only ever thinks of Jon as "her bastard half brother." I assume she'll go north in the books as well at some point with the Arryn armies.

Rand al'Fain
05-17-2016, 12:54 AM
I know they don't want to get into as many convoluted plots as book 6 probably will, but it seems way too easy that Dany is now in control of all the Dothraki because she murdered their leaders. I mean, wouldn't at least some of them be a little upset at her for this? Also, were the khals covered in lighter fluid or something? Even if they're on dry grass, pushing a brazier over in their general direction shouldn't kill them instantly.

I saw an interesting theory online that the secret the High Sparrow told Tommen was that Loras revealed the Tyrell's plan to kill Joffrey. So Cersei's plan is to basically have the Tyrells and sparrows kill each other, then kill whoever wins. I assume Cersei doesn't know that it was Olenna specifically who killed Joffrey, or else nothing would have stopped her from physically attacking Olenna in the council room.

Also, didn't Jon walk out of Castle Black in the previous episode? Did he come back to get some clean underwear or something? It's weird/interesting to see Jon and Sansa together, as they never had a prior scene together in either books or show. Sansa only ever thinks of Jon as "her bastard half brother." I assume she'll go north in the books as well at some point with the Arryn armies.

Desperate times call for desperate measures? If nothing else, he is the one "sibling" she knows the whereabouts of. Bastard brother or no.

Though I did see a theory somewhere of someone pairing Jon and Sansa together. *shudders*

Terez
05-17-2016, 01:32 AM
I know they don't want to get into as many convoluted plots as book 6 probably will, but it seems way too easy that Dany is now in control of all the Dothraki because she murdered their leaders. I mean, wouldn't at least some of them be a little upset at her for this?
Why should they be upset? Killing another Khal is among the five greatest things in this world. The Dothraki respect strength, and though they fear magic, we already saw that they have the capacity to fear it as one fears a god. None of the Dothraki who saw Dany's first burning had anything but awe for her.

Also, were the khals covered in lighter fluid or something? Even if they're on dry grass, pushing a brazier over in their general direction shouldn't kill them instantly.
We discussed this on Malazan. The braziers were apparently stylized lamps filled with oil; you can see the oil spilling in a few frames. Aside from that, the room may have been prepped with combustible dust or something; Dany did tell Jorah and Daario that she would need their help.

I saw an interesting theory online that the secret the High Sparrow told Tommen was that Loras revealed the Tyrell's plan to kill Joffrey. So Cersei's plan is to basically have the Tyrells and sparrows kill each other, then kill whoever wins. I assume Cersei doesn't know that it was Olenna specifically who killed Joffrey, or else nothing would have stopped her from physically attacking Olenna in the council room.
I suspect that the High Sparrow is two steps ahead of Cersei at every turn. Interested to see how this plays out.

Also, didn't Jon walk out of Castle Black in the previous episode?
Nope. He just walked out of the courtyard.

rand
05-17-2016, 02:36 AM
Why should they be upset? Killing another Khal is among the five greatest things in this world. The Dothraki respect strength, and though they fear magic, we already saw that they have the capacity to fear it as one fears a god. None of the Dothraki who saw Dany's first burning had anything but awe for her.
Kiling khals amongst themselves is one thing; a prisoner assassinating them all at once might be viewed differently. Like if Viserys had burned down Dany and Drogo's wedding pavilion by accidentally stumbling into a brazier, killing all the khals in the process, I doubt they would have all started worshiping him for it.

Also, Dany's first unburning included dragons, and was performed before a very few Dothraki who basically had nothing better to do than follow her anyway, even if she hadn't had the dragons or walked into the pyre.

I'm just kind of nitpicking, btw. Since all this moves the plot forward in a huge way I don't really care too much about the Dothraki motivations.

Terez
05-17-2016, 02:42 AM
Kiling khals amongst themselves is one thing; a prisoner assassinating them all at once might be viewed differently.
Why should it, though? They proved they were weak and unworthy to lead the Dothraki, which is exactly what Dany told them.

The reason there were only a few people around for Dany's first burning is because as soon as Drogo died, his khalasar stopped caring about him and started forming new khalasars, following strength, as they do.

Rand al'Fain
05-17-2016, 03:53 PM
Why should it, though? They proved they were weak and unworthy to lead the Dothraki, which is exactly what Dany told them.

The reason there were only a few people around for Dany's first burning is because as soon as Drogo died, his khalasar stopped caring about him and started forming new khalasars, following strength, as they do.

I do have a question. In season 1, and in the first book, the Dothraki in general see women as things for pleasure and popping out kids (to keep it PG). And Kal Drogo's guys respected her because of her husband.

And now all of a sudden, the Dothraki hordes are ready to follow a woman who had their leaders assassinated.

Say what you will, but it sounds like the Dothraki kind of got retconned.

Kimon
05-17-2016, 04:58 PM
I do have a question. In season 1, and in the first book, the Dothraki in general see women as things for pleasure and popping out kids (to keep it PG). And Kal Drogo's guys respected her because of her husband.

And now all of a sudden, the Dothraki hordes are ready to follow a woman who had their leaders assassinated.

Say what you will, but it sounds like the Dothraki kind of got retconned.

They could have added one extra, and frankly expected (Wasn't Drogon with her in the scene in aDwD when she was found by the dothraki?), element to that scene that would have helped overcome this sort of critique - Drogon. I was expecting/hoping for her to warg her dragon, it to terrorize and eat a few khals, and then the rest to submit to her.

Random khaleesi kills your leadership, and survives fire? Impressive, but as with you, I'd still expect the horde to descend into a chaotic mess of hundreds of rivals claiming and asserting the right to rule, with her getting much, but not all of the support. But, khaleesi with her dragon? To that I could definitely see them all spontaneously offering proskynesis.

fionwe1987
05-17-2016, 05:05 PM
It's not THAT absurd to see them submit. They thought a windowed wife of a Khal was going to get her comeuppance at the hands of the assemblage of all the Khals. Her best hope was to be consigned to the Dosh Khaleen. Then there's a massive fire behind clearly locked doors, everything burns, and out walks the woman who was supposedly going to be told her where she should go by the Khals.

There's no time left to organize any sort of resistance. No time to react. You're seeing all these people around you, awed and inclined to follow this woman. A woman who legend says birthed three dragons, and now there's proof she did it. Even if you think she shouldn't lead... who are you going to approach about it, in the midst of all that chaos?

Kimon
05-17-2016, 05:14 PM
It's not THAT absurd to see them submit. They thought a windowed wife of a Khal was going to get her comeuppance at the hands of the assemblage of all the Khals. Her best hope was to be consigned to the Dosh Khaleen. Then there's a massive fire behind clearly locked doors, everything burns, and out walks the woman who was supposedly going to be told her where she should go by the Khals.

There's no time left to organize any sort of resistance. No time to react. You're seeing all these people around you, awed and inclined to follow this woman. A woman who legend says birthed three dragons, and now there's proof she did it. Even if you think she shouldn't lead... who are you going to approach about it, in the midst of all that chaos?

Mob mentality. Once a large segment of the crowd kneels, conformity takes over the group psyche. The scene makes sense from the perspective of the viewer, as we know her character well, know of her dragons, and know what happened inside that burned building. The dothraki, in contrast, might vaguely know who she is, but haven't seen her dragons, nor do they know what happened to their khals. They really are reacting then merely to the shock of seeing her survive the fire. The scene works well for us as the audience, but that doesn't mean that it makes sense that they would have reacted as they did. Nor would it make sense that once their shock dissipates that there wouldn't be significant challenging of her right to rule them. The dragon's presence would have negated all those problems.

fionwe1987
05-17-2016, 10:24 PM
Not sure it would make sense to the audience if it isn't reasonable for the Dothraki to behave as they did.

Nor would it make sense that once their shock dissipates that there wouldn't be significant challenging of her right to rule them. The dragon's presence would have negated all those problems.

We don't know there won't be. Firstly, not all the Dothraki were conveniently nearby. Inevitable, some in the crowd that was there will leave in disagreement. But the bulk of them will stay, and the Dosh Khaleen will support her. For the purposes of this story, those that don't stay aren't very important. Maybe they'll continue to reave. Maybe they'll become sellswords. Maybe they'll slink away. Who cares? Neither Martin nor the show invested the Dothraki with any depth. They exist as a convenient armed force for Dany to use, or to thwart Dany, as the plot demands.

Terez
05-22-2016, 09:40 AM
We have a leak.

Terez
05-22-2016, 10:26 PM
I watched this episode earlier when it leaked, and again tonight. I feel pretty emotionally drained at this point, honestly. For now I'll just say that the last two episodes both felt like finale episodes, and I'm wondering if they're planning on keeping this up. I'm starting to see why they feel they only have two short seasons left after this one.

Kimon
05-22-2016, 10:33 PM
Where to start on the clusterfu*k that was today's episode.

Wtf Bran? So, to essentially sum up the purpose of Bran's story - he learns nothing particularly useful (He almost learned about Lyanna, but not quite. The bit about the Children making the Others was, at least, interesting.), he got Jojen and Max Von Sydow killed just so that he could see a few mostly pointless visions, and he fubared Hodor's mind in the past so that he and Meera could escape an attack that he caused completely due to his own incompetence.

Wtf Arya? The Faceless Men are schmucks and their philosophy is nihilistic nonsense. Go home.

Wtf Littlefinger? In the books you're Machiavelli, in the show you're just a dick. Sansa in the books would have at least used Littlefinger's army to achieve her goal. If you want revenge, that could easily have been arranged in a way that still would have given her access to his soldiers. Just arrange an accident for him. Heck, a simple suggestion to her sadistic creepy cousin would be enough.

Wtf Euron? His character has perhaps been even more disappointing in the show than Littlefinger. The Kingsmoot was also awful compared to the book. They should have stuck with Asha's speech and rationale from the books rather than merging hers with Victarion's.

It's things like this that make me anxious about what the WoT show might actually become.

Terez
05-22-2016, 10:57 PM
Where to start on the clusterfu*k that was today's episode.

Wtf Bran? So, to essentially sum up the purpose of Bran's story - he learns nothing particularly useful (He almost learned about Lyanna, but not quite. The bit about the Children making the Others was, at least, interesting.), he got Jojen and Max Von Sydow killed just so that he could see a few mostly pointless visions, and he fubared Hodor's mind in the past so that he and Meera could escape an attack that he caused completely due to his own incompetence.
Bran learned how to look into the past without touching the tree.

It's things like this that make me anxious about what the WoT show might actually become.
Posts like this are why I don't bother checking Theoryland most days any more.

Rand al'Fain
05-23-2016, 12:24 AM
So, sounds like GOT is running into a brick wall, headfirst?

And Arya is still with the nihilists? Oy. C'mon and stop dragging it out.

Kimon
05-23-2016, 12:28 AM
Bran learned how to look into the past without touching the tree.


Did he? He maintained contact with the vision after his hold on the tree was broken, but does that really mean that he can initiate a vision without touching a heart tree? Even if he can, that still seems a minor boon in exchange for potentially giving the Others the ability to pass through the Wall. Although the significance of that "mark" is also vague. Perhaps the Wall is still inviolate unless Bran passes back south of it. There's still the question of the Horn of Joramun too. In the books Tormund said that the Horn that was burned by Melisandre in the books wasn't the real one. The show hasn't paid as much attention to the Horns, but the absence of Euron's Horn also bothered me. Presumably his isn't Joramun's, but I wonder if his wasn't perhaps meant to be the answering horn. Joruman's for ice, and Euron's for the forces of fire.

One last aside. Who should we guess that first Other was? Anyone else think that it was an odd decision to not cast an actor with dark (Stark) hair?

Terez
05-23-2016, 02:13 AM
So, sounds like GOT is running into a brick wall, headfirst?
It definitely isn't. They are picking up the pace and barreling toward the ending; that much is clear. There are definitely some adaptation and continuity gripes, but not nearly as many as people make out here. Just because you haven't seen where something is leading doesn't mean it has no purpose. Tonight's episode was a prime example of that.

Did he? He maintained contact with the vision after his hold on the tree was broken, but does that really mean that he can initiate a vision without touching a heart tree?
I believe that's probably where this is going. It's why, when Bran made contact with the Night's King, Bloodraven knew it was time to go back to that courtyard that Bran didn't want to leave before, and why Bran wasn't warned. It was his emotional attachment to that vision that held him there when Meera told him they needed Hodor, and Bloodraven told him to listen. Instead of waking, and warging Hodor in the present, he did it in the past so he wouldn't have to leave Winterfell and his father. And my best guess is that warging Hodor, who was not bound to the tree, is what untethered him from that limitation.

The main problem is that it may be he's now stuck in the past, not in Hodor, but free to roam the past and, for now, perhaps unable to return to the present. We should find out that much next week, judging from the preview.

Even if he can, that still seems a minor boon in exchange for potentially giving the Others the ability to pass through the Wall.
Did anyone ever really think that the Others would stay north of the Wall forever, though? The war has to come south for people to realize they need to fight it; so long as it remains contained in the North, everyone's just playing the game of thrones and parting the waters for the coming invasion.

One last aside. Who should we guess that first Other was? Anyone else think that it was an odd decision to not cast an actor with dark (Stark) hair?
Ned's hair wasn't dark. And he's listed on IMDb as the Night's King.

fionwe1987
05-23-2016, 02:29 PM
I'm with Terez. This was a great episode. This idea that all characters should be perfect is absurd. Bran is a child who is learning something enormously complicated. Mistakes will happen. Including catastrophic ones. I'm happy he won't be spending the whole season training.

I was interested to see Sansa felt enough conflict about her position that she wasn't open about Littlefinger being the source of her information. I think her making the coat for Jon was to show that it isn't that Littlefinger's jibe about Jon being a half-brother struck home. It's more than Sansa feels burned, and she's playing her cards close to the chest. It's all very rushed, of course, but I'm liking Sansa's transformation. It has been a long time coming.

Also.. Summer died? I'm VERY surprised by that. In the books, at least, the wolves seem very critical to the Stark characters. What is Bran without Summer?

Also, per the creators, Bran went into the trance again because the Three Eyed Raven was trying to upload all his knowledge into Bran. That's why Bran was trapped in the vision and forced to warg Hodor from there.

Its pretty clear to me this episode ranks up there with Dany getting her Dragons, in terms of how world changing it is. Hodor being "Hold the Door" was directly from GRRM, and I suspect the White Walkers being made by the Children will be too. And Brand affecting the past, as someone pointed out, is already in the books.

This was a quick, emotionally satisfying graduation for Bran. He leaves his training with lots of challenges, but he's also now clearly one of the three main players in the anti-White Walker fight to come.

Kimon
05-23-2016, 05:33 PM
I'm with Terez. This was a great episode. This idea that all characters should be perfect is absurd.

That was not my main complaint, though I concede that I may have been giving that impression since I keep on mentioning Bran and Arya. The show has done a great job with many characters, most notably Jon and Tyrion, but many of the other characters have taken on a different feel in the show - Jaime, Sansa, Asha, Littlefinger, Euron, and Doran being the most obvious examples. This feels somewhat similar to the issue that many of us had with how Sanderson handled Mat. The early seasons, when the show more closely mirrored the books seemed to have far less of this sort of inconsistent feel between the source material and the show. The most egregious example of this divergence is Dorne, where the show just completely gave up on the source material, and what they replaced GRRM with has been dreck. The show is still good, but it feels, as is often the case with long running series, like it is declining in quality. Often with shows that is because the show begins feeling tired, here I think it is simply that the show's creator's are vastly inferior to GRRM, something which could have been easily rectified if only GRRM had had any semblance of work ethic.

Daekyras
05-23-2016, 06:12 PM
1. Hilarious random cock and balls.
2. Hodor :(
3. Wondering where the grey joys are running off to.
4. The ARya Stuff Feels Like It's Going Quickly. But that's not a bad thing.
5. Think that's our last Ser Jorah moment?
6. I liked this episode a lot.

Davian93
05-23-2016, 10:22 PM
Bran showed he's as dumb as all the other Starks...so there's that at least.

fionwe1987
05-23-2016, 10:36 PM
That was not my main complaint, though I concede that I may have been giving that impression since I keep on mentioning Bran and Arya. The show has done a great job with many characters, most notably Jon and Tyrion, but many of the other characters have taken on a different feel in the show - Jaime, Sansa, Asha, Littlefinger, Euron, and Doran being the most obvious examples. This feels somewhat similar to the issue that many of us had with how Sanderson handled Mat. The early seasons, when the show more closely mirrored the books seemed to have far less of this sort of inconsistent feel between the source material and the show. The most egregious example of this divergence is Dorne, where the show just completely gave up on the source material, and what they replaced GRRM with has been dreck. The show is still good, but it feels, as is often the case with long running series, like it is declining in quality. Often with shows that is because the show begins feeling tired, here I think it is simply that the show's creator's are vastly inferior to GRRM, something which could have been easily rectified if only GRRM had had any semblance of work ethic.

But Sanderson was continuing a story in the same format. These guys are adapting it.

Of course, we can all get frustrated about aspects of this show. Its far from perfect. Dorne, as you noted, is a great example where the show is bad as a show, not just as an adaptation.

I'm not sure the Bran thing ranks there, though. Any number of very logical explanations present themselves for what happened to him.

Terez
05-24-2016, 03:32 AM
I was interested to see Sansa felt enough conflict about her position that she wasn't open about Littlefinger being the source of her information. I think her making the coat for Jon was to show that it isn't that Littlefinger's jibe about Jon being a half-brother struck home. It's more than Sansa feels burned, and she's playing her cards close to the chest. It's all very rushed, of course, but I'm liking Sansa's transformation. It has been a long time coming.
She's still showing signs of immaturity, though. She let Littlefinger go; that was a huge mistake. And she was pretty na´ve about the Karstarks and the other houses when they were trying to plan their campaign against Ramsey; Jon noticed it too, but fortunately Davos was there to break it to her.

Also, per the creators, Bran went into the trance again because the Three Eyed Raven was trying to upload all his knowledge into Bran. That's why Bran was trapped in the vision and forced to warg Hodor from there.
The 3ER clearly doesn't have the ability to simply 'upload' all his knowledge into Bran or anyone else, so that was probably some kind of metaphor for the fact that the 3ER brought Bran to the place he needed to be to fulfill his destiny.

And Bran affecting the past, as someone pointed out, is already in the books.
That was me, but 'affecting' is probably too strong a word. He spoke to Ned, and Ned heard him (much like at the TOJ) but Bloodraven told him that Ned only heard the wind, and that no matter how hard he tried he would never be able to talk to Ned.

Terez
05-24-2016, 07:03 AM
I haven't been watching "After the Thrones" since having tried it once for the second episode, but I was feeling discussion-starved so I watched the last two weeks. One of the guys used the term "Stark Exceptionalism" to describe Sansa's na´vetÚ which I thought was perfect. He also made a "Mission Accomplished" Dany reference, and they referred to the Kingsmoot as a caucus. I don't typically look for parallels to American politics in GOT, so I got a kick out of all that.

Davian93
05-24-2016, 07:52 AM
She's still showing signs of immaturity, though. She let Littlefinger go; that was a huge mistake. And she was pretty na´ve about the Karstarks and the other houses when they were trying to plan their campaign against Ramsey; Jon noticed it too, but fortunately Davos was there to break it to her.

She completely fell for Littlefinger's game again. He didn't just randomly throw out the whole "Brynden Tully has an army at Riverrun" thing. That was quite deliberate and she fell for it completely. She also fell for his "half-brother" jab towards Jon to the point where she's now lying to Jon about the Tullys. She's still the same massive idiot she was before...perhaps a bit less trusting but still just as moronic as the rest of the Starks. Now we just get to wait to see what plan LF has for manipulating her and the Wildlings further.

The entire point to GoT is that the Starks are the down syndrome patients of Westeros...the meta play in the beginning of the episode basically spelled out just how stupid they all are with their portrayal of Ned as basically Forest Gump without the talent.

fionwe1987
05-24-2016, 11:14 AM
She's still showing signs of immaturity, though. She let Littlefinger go; that was a huge mistake. And she was pretty na´ve about the Karstarks and the other houses when they were trying to plan their campaign against Ramsey; Jon noticed it too, but fortunately Davos was there to break it to her.
Oh definitely.

The 3ER clearly doesn't have the ability to simply 'upload' all his knowledge into Bran or anyone else, so that was probably some kind of metaphor for the fact that the 3ER brought Bran to the place he needed to be to fulfill his destiny.
Clearly doesn't? Says who? The directors say he WAS trying to upload everything he had as fast as he could in that moment, and that it was sooner than he had anticipated doing it. He also does tell Bran it is time for Bran to become him, another clue.

That was me, but 'affecting' is probably too strong a word. He spoke to Ned, and Ned heard him (much like at the TOJ) but Bloodraven told him that Ned only heard the wind, and that no matter how hard he tried he would never be able to talk to Ned.
Fair enough. Wonder if this is the show diverging from the books (like Dany being immune to fire), or if they're sticking to something GRRM told them. Either way, pretty big deal that he can affect events in the past, per the show at least.

Davian93
05-24-2016, 11:57 AM
Clearly doesn't? Says who? The directors say he WAS trying to upload everything he had as fast as he could in that moment, and that it was sooner than he had anticipated doing it. He also does tell Bran it is time for Bran to become him, another clue.

I agree...showrunners said that's what he was doing and they have the final word regardless of the book canon.


Also, does anyone really think GRRM is ever gonna finish Winds let alone the other books at this point? The way the plot is accelerating, is there even a point? Sad that the showrunners were able to propel it along this quickly but he's still trying to figure out how to get Dany back to Westeros 15 years later.

Terez
05-24-2016, 12:04 PM
Clearly doesn't? Says who? The directors say he WAS trying to upload everything he had as fast as he could in that moment, and that it was sooner than he had anticipated doing it. He also does tell Bran it is time for Bran to become him, another clue.
I agree...showrunners said that's what he was doing and they have the final word regardless of the book canon.
They say that's what he was trying to do...okay. But how was he trying to do it? By taking Bran into a vision of the past...to the moment where Hodor was Hodored. Not by directly passing information into his brain. So yeah, that's what they said, but IMO it gave an impression that they didn't intend, because that's not a very good description of what was actually happening in the show. He took Bran to the Hodor vision and then he died.

Davian93
05-24-2016, 12:06 PM
They say that's what he was trying to do...okay. But how was he trying to do it? By taking Bran into a vision of the past...to the moment where Hodor was Hodored. Not by directly passing information into his brain. So yeah, that's what they said, but IMO it gave an impression that they didn't intend, because that's not a very good description of what was actually happening in the show. He took Bran to the Hodor vision and then he died.

I imagine they're gonna handwave it as a way to train Bran quickly without using a montage...now if only they'd do something similar with Arya so that stupid idiotic and boring as hell plotline could come to a close too.

Terez
05-24-2016, 12:12 PM
I imagine they're gonna handwave it as a way to train Bran quickly without using a montage....
I doubt it. The 3ER took him to that particular scene for a reason; he knew it was Bran's destiny. He just didn't expect it to come so soon.

Davian93
05-24-2016, 12:19 PM
I doubt it. The 3ER took him to that particular scene for a reason; he knew it was Bran's destiny. He just didn't expect it to come so soon.

I tend to think he probably did some sort of mini info dump into him and it was the show's way of speeding that process up rather than having Bran spend another year of slow training under the tree with the 3ER.

Speaking of that scene...and Bran's seeming warging into Hodor in the past and the present at the same time and essentially short-circuiting Hodor permanently...how messed up was that? Hodor is but pawn in game of life.

Also, if he can warg into someone in the past (per show canon now), what other doors does that open up for the plot?

Terez
05-24-2016, 12:26 PM
I tend to think he probably did some sort of mini info dump into him and it was the show's way of speeding that process up rather than having Bran spend another year of slow training under the tree with the 3ER.
Yeah, except that didn't happen. We didn't even get a hint that anything like that happened, unless you count that vague comment in the post-show thing.

Also, if he can warg into someone in the past (per show canon now), what other doors does that open up for the plot?
He can't just warg into anyone; he was only able to do it with Hodor because Hodor's mind had been destroyed. And he was only able to destroy Hodor's mind because he was warged into present Hodor at the same time as he was seeing past Hodor. That situation was very unique; I doubt it can be repeated.

Lots of people (Westeros, reddit) have been hopping on the 'what doors does that open' train and coming up with all kinds of loony theories, the most prominent of which have to do with Bran the Builder and the Mad King. But none of them make any sense, except maybe that Bran created Coldhands. I haven't seen a convincing argument on the mechanics, but it's possible we're going to get Coldhands next week, so we'll see.

Davian93
05-24-2016, 12:35 PM
We didn't even get a hint that anything like that happened, unless you count that vague comment in the post-show thing.

We get the "now you need to become me" or whatever he said plus what they showrunners said...so I guess we'll see.

It seems like a cheap method to move the plot along to me but whatever.

Terez
05-24-2016, 01:16 PM
We get the "now you need to become me" or whatever he said plus what they showrunners said...so I guess we'll see.
Yeah, I'm not contesting the idea that Bran needed to become the master greenseer in a hurry. I'm just saying, the method for that was foreordained, and I think the Hodor incident is what made Bran's cram session possible because it untethered his greensight from the physical contact with the tree while simultaneously teaching him about some of the pitfalls of what he's doing.

Davian93
05-24-2016, 02:39 PM
I was wondering about that untethering too...hopefully that wasn't a one time thing too so Bran doesn't have to go find another weir wood to hang out by.

Terez
05-24-2016, 03:02 PM
A lot of people seem to think that he's stuck in the past now and won't be able to return to his body in the present until they find another weirwood. We'll find out next week, I guess.

fionwe1987
05-24-2016, 03:16 PM
Here are their exact words:

"As soon as the Three Eyed Raven realizes there is no more time, he's gotta try to upload all this knowledge into Bran.

This is happening much much more rapidly than he (Bran) thought it was gonna happen. And he doesn't know what this all means. He doesn't know what to make of it all, because it's happening under duress."

Then they go on to discuss their meeting with GRRM about Hodor, and the scenes they show shift to young Hodor.

Further, in the show, Three Eyed Raven tells Bran "It is time for you to become me", and once Bran is told he isn't ready, Bran immediately goes into the vision, and his eyes whiten. That's the duress part. TER has pushed Bran into the vision and is force feeding him info, which is why Bran is stuck there, unable to wake. Maybe the vision is Winterfell because TER knows that it's a place that has powerful emotional significance to Bran, and he can use that to keep Bran there to transfer as much knowledge as possible till he (TER) is killed.

But whether we like it or not, they're pretty clear this is what happened. Brand was being force fed info from TER. Whether he got it all, whether it temporarily trapped him or broke his mind... that we'll find out soon enough.

Davian93
05-24-2016, 03:25 PM
Its Winterfell because Bran HAD to go back and break Hodor's mind so Hodor could save him in the present...he closed the time travel loop with that vision quest. The 3ER clearly knew that that was an event that HAD to happen in order for Bran to move forward.

Terez
05-24-2016, 04:44 PM
Here are their exact words:

"As soon as the Three Eyed Raven realizes there is no more time, he's gotta try to upload all this knowledge into Bran.

This is happening much much more rapidly than he (Bran) thought it was gonna happen. And he doesn't know what this all means. He doesn't know what to make of it all, because it's happening under duress."
I disagree that they're talking about Bran. Bran's not the one who has any concept of a schedule here; he knows nothing, Jon Snow. And the 3ER knows pretty damn close to everything by this point.

I'm just saying, the mechanism for the uploading is the Hodor incident. The 3ER set it off, but did not directly input all this information directly into Bran's brain before he died. You could say he started the upload when he took Bran to that scene, but at the time he died, the progress bar was basically at 1%. We have a long way to go.

Its Winterfell because Bran HAD to go back and break Hodor's mind so Hodor could save him in the present...he closed the time travel loop with that vision quest. The 3ER clearly knew that that was an event that HAD to happen in order for Bran to move forward.
Exactly. And I think it did more than move him forward; the warging of Hodor untethered his body from the tree.

Daekyras
05-24-2016, 07:22 PM
Its Winterfell because Bran HAD to go back and break Hodor's mind so Hodor could save him in the present...he closed the time travel loop with that vision quest. The 3ER clearly knew that that was an event that HAD to happen in order for Bran to move forward.


I hate that this is a thing.

If the 3ER knew Hodor had to be broken in this scene he knew why.

If he knew why, do something about it. Send them in their way before nights king shows up etc. Have some sort of agency.

Terez
05-25-2016, 06:00 AM
He didn't know when it would happen, so he had to try to teach Bran as much as possible while he still had time. This whole 'uploading' thing couldn't happen without Hodor, and that scene could only happen at that specific time; he couldn't force it to happen early, so he had no choice but to wait for it.

Rand al'Fain
05-25-2016, 11:42 AM
I imagine they're gonna handwave it as a way to train Bran quickly without using a montage...now if only they'd do something similar with Arya so that stupid idiotic and boring as hell plotline could come to a close too.

But EVERYONE needs an 80s montage! It makes everything epic!

Davian93
05-25-2016, 12:24 PM
But EVERYONE needs an 80s montage! It makes everything epic!

Rocky IV was on this morning as I was getting ready for work...I would be totally cool with a Rocky IV type montage where Bran is training like Rocky and the Night's King is playing the part of Ivan Drago.

That would be epic.

fionwe1987
05-25-2016, 02:23 PM
I disagree that they're talking about Bran.
He is, because while he's saying this, it is Bran they show, in a trance and being taken away by Hodor.

Bran's not the one who has any concept of a schedule here; he knows nothing, Jon Snow. And the 3ER knows pretty damn close to everything by this point.
He clearly didn't know WHEN the moment would come for Bran to suddenly leave and do what he does to Hodor. Otherwise, he would have also known that Bran would run into the Night King, and could have stopped it. He certainly wouldn't have had to ask "did he touch you". He'd have known. He knew this was coming, but didn't know how long he had before it came.

Either way, there's little doubt TER was uploading his knowledge into Bran.

I'm just saying, the mechanism for the uploading is the Hodor incident. The 3ER set it off, but did not directly input all this information directly into Bran's brain before he died. You could say he started the upload when he took Bran to that scene, but at the time he died, the progress bar was basically at 1%. We have a long way to go.
And we're basing this percentage on? He could be at 1, 95, or 50. We have no clue how far he got, because we have no clue what his rate of upload is. All we know is he started, and had at least about a minute for it. That is all.

Terez
05-25-2016, 02:35 PM
He is, because while he's saying this, it is Bran they show, in a trance and being taken away by Hodor.
Yeah, I still don't see it. It doesn't make any sense.

He clearly didn't know WHEN the moment would come for Bran to suddenly leave and do what he does to Hodor. Otherwise, he would have also known that Bran would run into the Night King, and could have stopped it. He certainly wouldn't have had to ask "did he touch you". He'd have known. He knew this was coming, but didn't know how long he had before it came.
He didn't ask "did he touch you?" He said "He touched you." Bran said he didn't know, and then he repeated it.

Either way, there's little doubt TER was uploading his knowledge into Bran.
There's a whole lot of doubt, because that's clearly not how his abilities work.

fionwe1987
05-25-2016, 08:48 PM
Yeah, I still don't see it. It doesn't make any sense.
It does. You just don't want it to be true.

He didn't ask "did he touch you?" He said "He touched you." Bran said he didn't know, and then he repeated it.
Fair enough, but the point still stands. If the TER knew when this would happen, he could have stopped it.

There's a whole lot of doubt, because that's clearly not how his abilities work.
Then the creators straight up lied?

Kimon
05-29-2016, 01:42 PM
Tormund the Weatherman?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uf6Hrg5wDNU

Davian93
05-29-2016, 10:01 PM
The opening scenes with Bran sure made it seem like he was processing downloaded info...so um...just saying.

Res_Ipsa
05-29-2016, 10:05 PM
Benjen!

Davian93
05-29-2016, 10:06 PM
Benjen!

Yup...amazing how the showrunners can untie the "impossible Mereenese knot" unlike GRRM.

Kimon
05-29-2016, 10:07 PM
Still think that the scene with Dany and the Dragon would have worked better two episodes ago amidst the burning aftermath of her coup d'etat, but better late than never. And at least Arya finally seems to be realizing that the the assassins of the House and White and Black are just honorless schmucks. And at least we finally got Coldhands, and an explanation on how he could be part wight (or part Other?). Suppose there are still some questions with him though. Is he alive? Is he, like in the books, going to be unable to cross the Wall?

A few other minor complaints. I thought that they made Tarly too harsh. He is a jerk in the books, but at least in the books he seemed fair, but harsh. Here he just seemed like a pos. That's not that big of a deal, nor is the fact that he shouldn't even have been there, but if they wanted him to be an a complete a*s, they seemed to have missed an opportunity to finally have Sam stand up to him, and have him get up and leave with Gilly and the baby in the middle of the meal. Albeit doing that wouldn't have allowed for him to leave with the sword, and certainly another Valyrian steel blade will be quite useful in the fight against the Others, and it was obviously going to waste in the south. I also preferred the way GRRM brought Jaime to the Riverlands more in the books, but at least he's finally going to leave the city.

Res_Ipsa
05-29-2016, 10:12 PM
Yup...amazing how the showrunners can untie the "impossible Mereenese knot" unlike GRRM.

It does feel like a knot unraveling and everything falling into place finally.

Davian93
05-29-2016, 10:13 PM
I'm kinda lost on Dany's speech...um, they're already following her. It really was kinda unnecessary at that point. Seemed like filler more than anything.

Also, I have to assume she fed that horse to Drogon then? Kinda a dick move on her part there.

You'd think Tarly would be with the Tyrell armies...he's kinda an important military commander and all. Silly for him to be off hunting and galavanting around the Reach with his son.

Kimon
05-29-2016, 10:23 PM
You'd think Tarly would be with the Tyrell armies...he's kinda an important military commander and all. Silly for him to be off hunting and galavanting around the Reach with his son.

Yeah, he should be in Duskendale or Maidenpool. Probably would have worked better to have just had Tarly send a raven to Kings Landing explaining that the pacification of the Riverlands was starting to go poorly due to the combination of the Blackfish's bravery and the Freys being a bunch of honorless idiots that all the locals hate. That could have gotten Jaime out of Kings Landing to help Tarly, and would have allowed for the avoidance of the two most awkwardly done bits of today's episode - dinner at the Tarly's and that poorly coordinated (not to mention it would have been monumentally stupid if they had actually butchered a bunch of priests, and the high priest, in front of a crowd) confrontation of the Sparrow. At least in the show there is seemingly no need to have Varys somehow manage to pull off the assassination of Kevan Lannister, as unlike in the books, he seems a completely incompetent Hand in the show.

Terez
05-29-2016, 10:27 PM
The opening scenes with Bran sure made it seem like he was processing downloaded info...so um...just saying.
Looks to me like he's still downloading. Hence him needing time to be ready.

Davian93
05-29-2016, 10:28 PM
Looks to me like he's still downloading. Hence him needing time to be ready.

But clearly there was some sort of pass-on there...it seemed more like it was downloaded and he has to basically review it. Maybe its in PDF format though so it sucks to do a search on or something.

Terez
05-29-2016, 10:32 PM
Yeah, he should be in Duskendale or Maidenpool. Probably would have worked better to have just had Tarly send a raven to Kings Landing explaining that the pacification of the Riverlands was starting to go poorly due to the combination of the Blackfish's bravery and the Freys being a bunch of honorless idiots that all the locals hate. That could have gotten Jaime out of Kings Landing to help Tarly, and would have allowed for the avoidance of the two most awkwardly done bits of today's episode - dinner at the Tarly's and that poorly coordinated (not to mention it would have been monumentally stupid if they had actually butchered a bunch of priests, and the high priest, in front of a crowd) confrontation of the Sparrow. At least in the show there is seemingly no need to have Varys somehow manage to pull off the assassination of Kevan Lannister, as unlike in the books, he seems a completely incompetent Hand in the show.
Varys is apparently supposed to be leaving Mereen some time this season. Though, that could be a false rumor; it was based on a shot of Tyrion and Varys by the docks with greenscreen; "sources" said that Varys was leaving Mereen. But that could have been the shot with the burning fleet.

Looks like Dany is going to Volantis to get her ships? One of Bran's visions was of a town that looked like Volantis with a dragon shadow flying over it. And we know from set leaks (and now the NEP) that Asha/Yara and Theon are in Volantis.

I suspect that in the end Dany's story will seem too easy to me.

Davian93
05-29-2016, 10:34 PM
The Dany storyline has basically been 6 seasons of painfully boring plotlines...so anything that speeds it along will be nice.

Davian93
05-29-2016, 10:41 PM
Other quick thoughts on the episode:

1. Tommen is a dumbass who doesnt have long for this world.
2. Margaery is very clearly smart enough to know faking repentence is a workable plan here.
3. At least we'll finally get that Jaime Riverlands storyline we were all hankering for.

Terez
05-29-2016, 10:42 PM
Jaime in the Riverlands is just not the same without the Cersei angst, though.

Davian93
05-29-2016, 10:44 PM
Jaime in the Riverlands is just not the same without the Cersei angst, though.

Yeah, I really, really hate that they've basically taken away Jaime's redemption arc on the show. He was one of the more interesting characters in the later books because of that.

Davian93
05-29-2016, 10:45 PM
Another quick thought: Are they just gonna handwave the whole "Dany knows how to control her dragon" issue on the show? When did she suddenly learn how to control Drogon? Last time, she basically just went for a ride, now she's in full control?

Terez
05-29-2016, 11:30 PM
But clearly there was some sort of pass-on there...it seemed more like it was downloaded and he has to basically review it. Maybe its in PDF format though so it sucks to do a search on or something.
Or maybe, if the 3ER really had the ability to just upload information into Bran's brain, he would have done that in the first place instead of going through all that rigamarole that cost so many lives.

fionwe1987
05-29-2016, 11:58 PM
So, looks like next episode:

Sansa and Jon visit Bear Island and the Mormonts, and then the Glovers. The Glover person (Robett?) doesn't look pleased with her. Nor the Mormonts. Are we going to have Jorah's sister ruling Bear Island, as in the books? Also, Bronn returns, it looks like.

fionwe1987
05-30-2016, 12:04 AM
The opening scenes with Bran sure made it seem like he was processing downloaded info...so um...just saying.

:D Yeah, to me it clearly reads like he's in information overload. He keeps saying he can't control it, and Benjen even says he's the TER, now. But apparently, it isn't clear to everyone...

About Danaerys: did anyone else get a bit of a chill in the way she framed the Dothraki's task to them? No request for help to destroy the Slavers for ever. Instead, its going to be rape, pillage and fire in Westeros. Someone needs to give her a damn history lesson already.

Agree that making Tarly a total SOB was ridiculous if it didn't end in Sam saying FU and storming out. But I was happy he at least got the sword and left with Gilly. His mom and sister must be aliens or something, because they seemed too nice to belong to Westeros.

I wonder how the Jaime-Edmure-Brynden thing will work, here. In the books, Edmure only capitulates when his child's life is threatened. It doesn't look like his wife in the show ever slept with him, so it's kind of mystifying why Edmure would not risk his life to keep Riverrun secure.

Also, Brienne is coming to Riverrun, and she will run into Jaime, yet another book event that's magically shaping up to happen despite so much divergence in the show. AND the Frey's mention the Brotherhood without Banners. They brought back one Stark as a half-zombie. Dare we hope another will be revealed?

Terez
05-30-2016, 12:18 AM
So, looks like next episode:

Sansa and Jon visit Bear Island and the Mormonts, and then the Glovers. The Glover person (Robett?) doesn't look pleased with her. Nor the Mormonts. Are we going to have Jorah's sister ruling Bear Island, as in the books? Also, Bronn returns, it looks like.
Looks like Davos visiting the Manderleys too. And I do hope we get Maege, or one of the Mormont ladies.

:D Yeah, to me it clearly reads like he's in information overload. He keeps saying he can't control it, and Benjen even says he's the TER, now. But apparently, it isn't clear to everyone...
No one ever argued that he wasn't the 3ER. Just that the 3ER didn't have the ability to just shove all this information into Bran's brain, or he would have done it in the first place. He had to use the Hodor incident as a catalyst to untether Bran from the tree, or something like that. I suppose it's too much to hope for that the showrunners came up with a logical explanation.

I wonder how the Jaime-Edmure-Brynden thing will work, here. In the books, Edmure only capitulates when his child's life is threatened. It doesn't look like his wife in the show ever slept with him, so it's kind of mystifying why Edmure would not risk his life to keep Riverrun secure.
He definitely slept with his wife; that's what he was doing while everyone else was getting killed.

Also, Brienne is coming to Riverrun, and she will run into Jaime, yet another book event that's magically shaping up to happen despite so much divergence in the show. AND the Frey's mention the Brotherhood without Banners. They brought back one Stark as a half-zombie. Dare we hope another will be revealed?
IMO it's pretty likely. If they're going to introduce her, now is the time.

fionwe1987
05-30-2016, 01:02 AM
Looks like Davos visiting the Manderleys too. And I do hope we get Maege, or one of the Mormont ladies.
Yeah.

No one ever argued that he wasn't the 3ER. Just that the 3ER didn't have the ability to just shove all this information into Bran's brain, or he would have done it in the first place. He had to use the Hodor incident as a catalyst to untether Bran from the tree, or something like that. I suppose it's too much to hope for that the showrunners came up with a logical explanation.
I'm not arguing it isn't stupid. I'm saying its clear he was uploading info, and right now, per Benjen, he has the entire history of the world in his head, so it got done.

And it doesn't follow that just because he could, 3ER would have done it right away to Bran. That's like arguing Siuan should have forced Egwene because she technically could. Clearly, this was a traumatic process for Bran, and his lack of control is definitely affecting his ability to pull out from these visions. So why risk it early on? Once the Night King came calling, though, there was no choice. So risk or no, the 3ER did it.

He definitely slept with his wife; that's what he was doing while everyone else was getting killed.
True. I guess there COULD be a baby.

IMO it's pretty likely. If they're going to introduce her, now is the time.
Yeah.

Also, I just went through Bran's vision in slo-mo. There's a baby being held by someone with dead/blue hands. And the person brings his thumbs next to the baby's eyes, and its eyes turn blue. This vision is repeated several time, interspersed with hooded figures on the Wall, and Ned being beheaded.

There's also Aerys yelling burn them all, a frame of some alchemists making Wildfyre in casks. A frame of all of it burning, and a fire roaring through a passage.

There's Dany with baby Dragon. What is almost certainly Drogon (or maybe Balaerion) flying over a city with many red roofed homes.

They also show Catelyn being held at knife point twice, Robb being stabbed by Roose, Jaime killing Aerys and sitting on the Iron Throne.

There a huge flock of ravens, a single raven, Bran falling. The Children, the first Walker being made, and Leaf also make an appearance.

Most interestingly, there's young Ned saying "Where is my sister?". And then it cuts to this:

https://dl2.pushbulletusercontent.com/70JV7Mvvci4nsxOtdszoeWXAwIV9KLNW/Screen%20Shot%202016-05-29%20at%2011.57.48%20PM.png

Bed of blood, and Ned's hand coated in that blood, I'm certain of it. Notice the woman's hand in the background, and I'm pretty sure its her body over which Ned has his hand.

So mysterious baby Other, and the birth of Jon are two big things I'll be interested to know more of.

Terez
05-30-2016, 01:20 AM
I had to adblock that picture. I took several screenshots which I uploaded here (http://imgur.com/a/iVvgz). Lyanna was also my guess for the bloody hand.

Also, I just went through Bran's vision in slo-mo. There's a baby being held by someone with dead/blue hands. And the person brings his thumbs next to the baby's eyes, and its eyes turn blue. This vision is repeated several time, interspersed with hooded figures on the Wall, and Ned being beheaded.
Wasn't the baby stuff just Craster's son? If it's not the one we saw, it could be one of countless other sons of his.

There's Dany with baby Dragon. What is almost certainly Drogon (or maybe Balaerion) flying over a city with many red roofed homes.
Isn't it Volantis? I need to go back to the scene in....season 5? Where Tyrion goes through Volantis.

Terez
05-30-2016, 02:46 PM
According to Wert the city is King's Landing, and the scene is taken from a dream sequence in season 4.

fionwe1987
05-30-2016, 03:22 PM
According to Wert the city is King's Landing, and the scene is taken from a dream sequence in season 4.
That's what I'm reading elsewhere also. Doesn't look like any scenes from the future are to be found in here.

rand
06-05-2016, 02:08 AM
I've been on vacation for the past week and a half so I just watched the last two episodes now. Just a couple random things:

It's kind of funny that people have actually been predicting Hodor to mean Hold the Door forever...but as a joke. I think the "theory" is that Hodor is somehow Aegon Targaryen, and right before Gregor broke into his room and smashed his head against the wall, Elia shouted "hold the door!"

The show is obviously implying that Benjen = Coldhands, but FWIW GRRM has debunked this in the books (he's pretty clearly not Benjen anyway). The most popular theory is that Coldhands is Night's King, who in the books was a Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, not an Other...unless he became one somehow. It's kind of like the show's mashing all the "mysterious characters north of the Wall" together or something, which doesn't seem to be the case in the books (i.e. Benjen, Coldhands, Night's King, and whoever leads the Others may be four distinct characters).



Also, GRRM read another chapter (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TOzYKnHHFS87I2B1Mx1xaF0zoR5pjdl5bLh9Fzi6Dts/mobilebasic?pli=1) from Winds. I haven't read the whole thing yet, but it's an Aeron/Damphair chapter called The Forsaken.

Terez
06-05-2016, 07:39 AM
I'm excited for tonight's episode. We'll finally get to see Ian McShane, and maybe the gravedigger. Benjen as Coldhands might fall in the same category as Cleganebowl - fanservice for the sake of it.

Kimon
06-05-2016, 10:10 PM
I'm excited for tonight's episode. We'll finally get to see Ian McShane, and maybe the gravedigger. Benjen as Coldhands might fall in the same category as Cleganebowl - fanservice for the sake of it.

Pretty good episode. Hopefully Arya brings some justice to the guild of assassins before heading home. Preferably including burning their evil temple to the ground after killing them.

So, was Sansa writing to Littlefinger, or to the Blackfish? Probably Littlefinger. I still find Littlefinger's game/strategy much easier to comprehend in the books. In the show I can't help but expect him to march with them, and then to betray them during the sortie. But to what purpose? In the books he seems to be trying to be the last man standing, ending with himself sitting on the Iron Throne after manipulating the fall of all his rivals. In the show?

Terez
06-05-2016, 10:28 PM
I was pretty bored with most of this episode. The best bit was Olenna's conversation with Cersei. What's up with the drawing of a rose? Is that just Margaery's way of telling her to bring the Tyrell army to King's Landing? Either way, Olenna is now my hero.

Kimon
06-05-2016, 10:35 PM
What's up with the drawing of a rose? Is that just Margaery's way of telling her to bring the Tyrell army to King's Landing?

Maybe, but I just took it for a simpler message - that she wasn't brainwashed.

Terez
06-06-2016, 02:13 AM
I suppose. And she wants her to return to Highgarden so that the High Sparrow can't get at her?

Mort
06-06-2016, 07:55 AM
I suppose. And she wants her to return to Highgarden so that the High Sparrow can't get at her?

Probably that. The Queen is still loyal to Highgarden, since the Rose. Now comes the long con to see what they can make of it all.

Davian93
06-06-2016, 03:42 PM
Maybe, but I just took it for a simpler message - that she wasn't brainwashed.

I took it to mean basically "Dont worry, I'm still a Tyrell". Ie: This is all just a BS act and I've got it...but you need to listen and get the hell out of KL before my idiot retard of a husband has you arrested for your "sins".


I do LOVE that Margaery has cut Tommen off in bed...that's hilarious. The little moron will eventually want some action more than he wants piety and he'll figure it out. I'm not trying to imply that teenage boys tend to think more with their dick than their head but teenage boys tend to think more with their dick than their head...especially when a pretty damn cute girl is right there and has previously shown herself to be quite willing and enthusiastic in those areas and is now giving him the cold shoulder. Praying is all good and well but I tend to think Margaery will have him "praying to god" in a different format quite soon with that strategy...regardless of the High Sparrow's whole little "just lay back and be patient" command, Tommen is gonna be very unhappy with the dead fish act I think.

Davian93
06-06-2016, 03:53 PM
also, the most ridiculous off the wall theory I've heard so far on GoT: That Arya and the Waif are the same person and all their scenes so far have been a Fight Club type scenario.

I mean, that's just so utterly ridiculous and not possible but I've seen a few people saying it now. I mean, seriously people???

Kimon
06-06-2016, 05:09 PM
also, the most ridiculous off the wall theory I've heard so far on GoT: That Arya and the Waif are the same person and all their scenes so far have been a Fight Club type scenario.

I mean, that's just so utterly ridiculous and not possible but I've seen a few people saying it now. I mean, seriously people???

The oddest theory I've heard is that the High Sparrow is Howland Reed. He has been conspicuously absent, but still way too convoluted to make sense.

fionwe1987
06-06-2016, 07:11 PM
The Waif thing appeals to me simply because at least then Arya's story is going somewhere, thematically.

If the Waif is a different person, what was the fucking point of Arya's story. She didn't lose her identity, which I liked. But she sought to lose it in the first place, so the point of the story is...? And she didn't even learn basic sense from the Temple, since who the heck allows a random woman saying "sweet girl" close? And she didn't think being seen in public with tons of coin asking for rush passage to Westeros will get noticed? A girl learned nothing...

Also, I too found this episode slowww... That they basically got Ian McShane on the show to just be fridged is absurd. I get that they wanted to make some poignant point about how Sandor cannot leave violence behind, but that kind of thing needs time, not a single episode arc!

Also, I found it hilarious that Sansa and Jon were left speechless by Lyanna Mormont. That kid did good. But the Sansa-Jon thing is starting to lose tension. They haven't convinced me Sansa and Jon don't trust each other, and the "secret" letters are so transparent that they shouldn't even bother.

It seems clear to me that the only option they have with Littlefinger is to show that his one great weakness is Sansa. She will ask for his help, but stay vigilant. And he'll show some sign of betrayal, and she'll undercut him. If there's only 13 episodes after this season left, they don't have time for more subtle ploys.

If Sansa's story was separate from Jon's and the Wildlings, I'd say there's a chance she gets taken in by LF, again. But now her fortunes are linked to theirs, and a scenario where the Wildlings are wiped out by the Boltons just doesn't seem likely to me.

rand
06-06-2016, 11:56 PM
There's also two interesting theories I've read about Arya's stabbing.

1) Arya planned the whole thing out, knowing the waif would easily recognize her/attack her. She hid fake blood in her clothes that she got from the theater. She's currently trying to lure the waif to wherever she hid Needle.

2) It wasn't Arya at all but Jaqen, testing the waif. He asked her not to let Arya suffer, and she did the opposite by stabbing her in the stomach. So maybe the waif will be killed by Jaqen next episode.

I like 1, but there's a few problems with it. Arya didn't know where the waif would stab her, so unless she had bags of fake all over her body, she wouldn't have known the waif would go for her stomach. Also, I don't remember if we actually see the size of the blade, but it would have probably pierced Arya anyway, unless she had mail underneath.

The previews for next week show Arya jumping and doing parkour-y stuff in Braavos, which I'm guessing wouldn't be possible with gaping wounds in her stomach. Based on this, I would guess she isn't hurt at all. I do find the Arya=the Waif theory interesting too, but if it's true I'd assume it's a show only thing, as the waif isn't as prominent a character in the books iirc.

Terez
06-07-2016, 02:58 AM
At the House of Black and White, the Waif is more prominent than Jaqen. But that's not saying much.

Davian93
06-07-2016, 07:59 AM
At the House of Black and White, the Waif is more prominent than Jaqen. But that's not saying much.

Next week will open with Jaqen meeting with Arya..."A girl has schizophrenia, a girl needs to be committed and heavily sedated"

Terez
06-07-2016, 09:00 AM
On Reddit they call him Sexy Jesus.

rand
06-09-2016, 01:06 AM
Just saw that episode 9 is called "The Battle of the Bastards" and will be 60 minutes long. Should be pretty awesome.

The finale is called "The Winds of Winter." Maybe they're just trolling book fans with that, but it could mean the Wall is finally coming down. Since everyone we care about except Edd has left the Wall by now, this would seem like a good time for that. It's 69 minutes, which is the longest GoT episode yet, and probably around 15 minutes longer than a usual episode.

Terez
06-12-2016, 10:14 PM
Arya: Occam's Razor wins. Love that she led the Waif to her cave; that blood trail shot from the season trailer was nice but it didn't sink in for me until I actually saw her in the cave. I was scared that her cutting the candle would be the end of the ep.

Cersei: Sucks to be her. Will she send for Jaime like she did in the books? The situation would be different, but we still have Lancel so that's good for drama.

Varys: Kevan and Pycelle are goners.

Tommen: Not long for this world.

Hound: Love that he's joining the Brotherhood. Now that we've seen Beric, Stoneheart seems unlikely. She's been dead too long; it was Beric who gave her his life. But I bet the Brotherhood still gets Brienne and Pod.

Blackfish: RIP.

Edmure: RIP. Not dead (yet), but he just rendered himself completely irrelevant.

Dany: She looks angry. I expected Tyrion to hop on a dragon this episode. I'm thinking more and more it will happen before the end of the season.

Battle of the Bastards: Looks bad for Jon and Sansa. I wonder if Littlefinger will save them after all. Knowing him, he'd wait until Jon's army was mostly dead.

Terez
06-12-2016, 10:41 PM
Case in point (as referenced in the US election thread): It has been 40 minutes since the show ended and there are already nearly 3000 comments on the post-discussion thread at r/asoiaf, and 3600 at r/gameofthrones.

Kimon
06-12-2016, 11:46 PM
Hopefully watching this season, and seeing what has happened to the quality of his story due to his own indolence, finally pushes GRRM out of his inertia.

Terez
06-12-2016, 11:47 PM
You sound like all the sore hypers on reddit.

Kimon
06-12-2016, 11:48 PM
You sound like all the sore hypers on reddit.

Have you enjoyed this season as much as the others?

rand
06-13-2016, 12:51 AM
Definitely looking forward to next week, though it seems like there will be a lot to cover in the finale, especially in Meereen.

Well, the Waif might be good with melee weapons, but she sucks at being an actual assassin. Guess that's why she's still an acolyte. But seriously, a foot race through the crowded streets, shoving people aside? I mean, she knows Arya's wounded, but it doesn't exactly seem like a Faceless Man-approved means of killing someone. All this is aside from the fact that Arya would have probably ripped her stomach open just sitting up, let alone the whole chase, since she apparently was severely injured the whole time.

Also, Jaqen seems remarkably happy with the fact that Arya crashed at his house for a few weeks, stole all his things (techniques), and killed his prized student before deciding to pack up and go home.

Overall I liked the episode. To answer Kimon's question, I personally am enjoying this season just as much as the others. I think seasons 1 and 2 are the best, but after that I think I like them all the same. Maybe 5 is it a little worse. But 6 seems fine to me so far, considering I have no clue what GRRM intended for any of it yet.

Davian93
06-13-2016, 07:59 AM
Dany: She looks angry.

If anything, they should all be pissed at her, not the other way around...3 foreigners trying to run a city where they're actively hated without the support of the one person who had the power (ie dragons) to theoretically impose her rule. They did as good as they possibly good in her absence.

At least she had time to stop by the dressmaker on her way back to the city though. Dany makes Egwene look like an amazingly competent leader and person.

Davian93
06-13-2016, 08:07 AM
Other points...the Blackfish dying (offscreen too of all ways) made that entire subplot utterly fucking pointless. Woohoo, Jaime and Brienne got to see each other again. Who cares. At least in the books, him getting away meant he might do something eventually. Having him die a pointless death off-screen was just terrible writing.

Tommen is probably the dumbest kid on the planet. He makes Dany look like a competent leader and person.

Having the Hound join the Brotherhood sure does kill the chances of a Cleganebowl...which makes me sad even if it always was a long shot. The Hound's first scene was pure awesomeness though. "You're shit at dying"

Battle of the Bastards: Looks bad for Jon and Sansa.

Yeah, not exactly the best strategy it seems. Maybe next time Sansa gets offered 30,000 soldiers (or whatever the Vale has) she'll say yes. I mean, her Tully/Stark stubbornness really bred true there.