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Daekyras
09-29-2016, 04:55 PM
So I've been doing my re - read differently this time.

In fact, I'm not reading at all. Audio books are a pretty good way to consume these for someone familiar with the series.

But something jumps out to me in "The Great Hunt"

5 different people call Rand "Lews Therin" when they meet him and chat to him.

Both hawkwing and Ishmael make reference to having fought him time after time after time.

So- after 1000s of lives, why Lews Therin? Why is that the identity that they all know? Hawkwing for example never actually met the Lews we think of as he was around a thousand years after the breaking(I think). And birgette the same.

P.s. Some of the pronunciations are not how I would do it.

It's egg - ween Dammit. Not egg - Wayne!

Rand al'Fain
09-29-2016, 07:35 PM
It may have to do with it being his last life, and chatting and having a pint with Artur and gang and telling about his life as "The Dragon". And after 3000 years (yeah, I know time flows differently, but it would still be a while), I can see why they would call him as such.

As for Egwene, I've always pronounced it "Edge-ween" personally.

GonzoTheGreat
09-30-2016, 03:33 AM
So- after 1000s of lives, why Lews Therin? Why is that the identity that they all know? Hawkwing for example never actually met the Lews we think of as he was around a thousand years after the breaking(I think). And birgette the same.Actually, Birgitte sort of knew him (or at least, knew about him) as LTT. After all, she earned Moghedien's enmity by foiling one of her schemes during the time when LTT was leading the forces of the Light.

For all we know Hawkwing was active at the time too. Not having any stories we can tie to him doesn't prove much. Considering what happened, it would have been very easy for such stories to be lost entirely. Or maybe they only survived in Shara, or in the Land of the Madmen.

On top of that, they've spend the better part of 3,000 years waiting in TAR for LTT to be reborn. During all that time they knew he was coming but they did not know what name he would be using. Thus, they would have used the name they did know, and a habit build up during thousands of years is probably fairly hard to break.

It's egg - ween Dammit. Not egg - Wayne!
Should've been egg - whine.

Daekyras
09-30-2016, 08:26 AM
But why would they call him LT even then?
Under the same logic wouldn't they call him the same thing as his life previous to that??

Rand al'Fain
09-30-2016, 10:56 AM
But why would they call him LT even then?
Under the same logic wouldn't they call him the same thing as his life previous to that??

Not if they had some ale with him in the Dream World after his life as LT. It's probably what they knew him as prior to him becoming Rand, and will probably refer to him as such until he dies as Rand. Then they'll call him "Rand" until he dies in his next life, as Bob the Builder.

GonzoTheGreat
09-30-2016, 11:44 AM
Good point, that. Until Rand was born (or whenever his soul moved into his body), he was in TAR and his most recent life there was as LTT.

rand
09-30-2016, 02:16 PM
FWIW, all the pronunciations are in the glossaries. I think it's officially "eh-GWAIN."

Daekyras
09-30-2016, 04:40 PM
I dont know about this guys.

how often do these people get spun out? they are talking about having hundreds of names. Thousands of lives.

But Hawkwing IS Hawkwing.
Birgitte is Birgitte etc.

Surely Birgitte has been spun out since the age of legends?? or Gaidal Cain? But they are known by that name.

So im reading it as each of those souls has a primary identity. So my question is Why is LTT the primary for the dragon soul when effectively, if time is a wheel, he fucks up in a massive way over and over again..

fionwe1987
09-30-2016, 06:54 PM
Birgitte wasn't known as Birgitte in her AoL incarnation. Wasn't her name Teadra or something?

Hawkwing certainly wasn't spun out between his last birth and now, and neither was LTT. I don't think the Wheel uses all Heroes equally. Birgitte, for instance, was there in the AoL to spoil Moggy's plans, then was born again to help found the White Tower, and for all we know had some births in the middle (I personally favor her being an Aiel Maiden in some life). Others are born rarely.

Rand al'Fain
09-30-2016, 07:04 PM
Birgitte wasn't known as Birgitte in her AoL incarnation. Wasn't her name Teadra or something?

Hawkwing certainly wasn't spun out between his last birth and now, and neither was LTT. I don't think the Wheel uses all Heroes equally. Birgitte, for instance, was there in the AoL to spoil Moggy's plans, then was born again to help found the White Tower, and for all we know had some births in the middle (I personally favor her being an Aiel Maiden in some life). Others are born rarely.

Brigitte was born just a few centuries or so before Rand and company are born. Hence the whole tower talk Mat asked her about later on in the series.

GonzoTheGreat
10-01-2016, 03:38 AM
Yeah, which Hero gets spun out depends on what the Pattern needs at that precise moment. In a time like the Third Age, someone like Birgitte is very useful. But in an Age where bows and arrows aren't known or used (either because they are too advanced or because they are outdated), she will be far less likely to be called into action.

If the Dragon had been reborn at any other time in the Third Age, the results would have been fairly disastrous, I think.

Nazbaque
10-01-2016, 08:31 AM
So I've been doing my re - read differently this time.

In fact, I'm not reading at all. Audio books are a pretty good way to consume these for someone familiar with the series.

But something jumps out to me in "The Great Hunt"

5 different people call Rand "Lews Therin" when they meet him and chat to him.

Both hawkwing and Ishmael make reference to having fought him time after time after time.

So- after 1000s of lives, why Lews Therin? Why is that the identity that they all know? Hawkwing for example never actually met the Lews we think of as he was around a thousand years after the breaking(I think). And birgette the same.

P.s. Some of the pronunciations are not how I would do it.

It's egg - ween Dammit. Not egg - Wayne!

Well first point. The Heroes hardly talk at all in the gathering scene and the only name they say is Lews Therin referring to Rand. Rand's mind attaches names to each based on stories he has heard in this life. I assume the other names are Rand's memories of waiting in T'A'R seeping through because the Horn has been sounded. We don't really know how the Heroes act in T'A'R when they are in between lives, but when the Horn is sounded they remain in this state of mind. I think there is a Valhalla of sorts within T'A'R and it might be that there everyone goes by the most recent strong incarnation and so the Heroes call Rand "Lews Therin".

Second point. I get the impression that Rand has been spun out a number of times between his life as Lews Therin and his current one, but those two are the ones he was most strongly ta'veren in so the other Heroes ignore the other names. This would apply to the other Heroes as well. The strongest effect remains over more recent ones for a long time. Rand hasn't yet been Rand for that long in the terms of Ages, but maybe in the next Age he will be called "Rand" by the other Heroes.

Third point. Rand and Hawkwing have probably met quite a few times in the time between Lews Therin's rule and Hawkwing's but in weaker forms. Quite a few but not 1000s. I believe the 1000s of lives comments refer to every turning of the Wheel since the beginning not simply the current one and the key point is that it might be that none happen when Rand is the Dragon or the Dragon Reborn or when Hawkwing is the Emperor.

Fourth point. Egwene I don't mind. Personally I just call her "the brat". However Kate's pronouncing of "Moiraine" ticks me off. Leave your French fetish out of your work damn it!

Kimon
10-01-2016, 09:37 AM
Second point. I get the impression that Rand has been spun out a number of times between his life as Lews Therin and his current one, but those two are the ones he was most strongly ta'veren in so the other Heroes ignore the other names. This would apply to the other Heroes as well. The strongest effect remains over more recent ones for a long time. Rand hasn't yet been Rand for that long in the terms of Ages, but maybe in the next Age he will be called "Rand" by the other Heroes.

Third point. Rand and Hawkwing have probably met quite a few times in the time between Lews Therin's rule and Hawkwing's but in weaker forms. Quite a few but not 1000s. I believe the 1000s of lives comments refer to every turning of the Wheel since the beginning not simply the current one and the key point is that it might be that none happen when Rand is the Dragon or the Dragon Reborn or when Hawkwing is the Emperor.


We got a definitive no on Guaire being a previously spinning of the Rand-anima, right?

That still would have been the easiest, and most logical way to make sense of that dialogue. Certainly it seemed what RJ was trying to get us to assume based upon that passage. Along those same lines, of sometimes fighting together, sometimes against, I wish that RJ would have just made Mat the Hawkwing-anima. That would have also made his fated marriage to the Daughter of the Nine Moons quite fitting as well.

Nazbaque
10-01-2016, 12:37 PM
We got a definitive no on Guaire being a previously spinning of the Rand-anima, right?

That still would have been the easiest, and most logical way to make sense of that dialogue. Certainly it seemed what RJ was trying to get us to assume based upon that passage. Along those same lines, of sometimes fighting together, sometimes against, I wish that RJ would have just made Mat the Hawkwing-anima. That would have also made his fated marriage to the Daughter of the Nine Moons quite fitting as well.

Kimon don't force Occam's Razor on RJ. Literature isn't logistics.

SomeOneElse
10-01-2016, 01:09 PM
It caught my attention as well when reading. I think that is just because Rand knows only Lews Therin among his previous names and neither do we know any of them. And addressing him as The Dragon [Reborn] would be... To official in those cases. Maybe RJ also didn't want to repeat the word "Dragon" over and over.
I get the impression that Rand has been spun out a number of times between his life as Lews Therin and his current one
That would have no point unless the wheel has a very limited number of souls.

Nazbaque
10-01-2016, 02:09 PM
That would have no point unless the wheel has a very limited number of souls.

Why? There is a looong time in between and his lives wouldn't have been that long if he always had the spark. There could easily be 20-30 lives even with fairly long times spent in T'A'R in between.

But even if the Dragon soul is special and is only spun out once every Age, Hawkwing would be a normal Hero and capable of fighting against and along side of him multiple times in a single turning of the Wheel.

GonzoTheGreat
10-02-2016, 03:37 AM
Why? There is a looong time in between and his lives wouldn't have been that long if he always had the spark. There could easily be 20-30 lives even with fairly long times spent in T'A'R in between.He would have been the Dragon Reborn. That's the problem with this idea in a nutshell.

Nazbaque
10-02-2016, 03:50 AM
He would have been the Dragon Reborn. That's the problem with this idea in a nutshell.

Not if the Pattern wasn't ready for him to be the Dragon Reborn. What truly makes him the Dragon or Dragon Reborn is the high level of ta'veren and that is up to the Pattern.

GonzoTheGreat
10-02-2016, 04:27 AM
Not if the Pattern wasn't ready for him to be the Dragon Reborn. What truly makes him the Dragon or Dragon Reborn is the high level of ta'veren and that is up to the Pattern.
No, that is what makes him an effective Dragon Reborn.

What makes him the actual Dragon Reborn is that he is the Dragon who is reborn; ie. that he is the rebirth of Lews Therin Telamon. After all, LTT was the Dragon, wasn't he?

Nazbaque
10-02-2016, 05:44 AM
No, that is what makes him an effective Dragon Reborn.

What makes him the actual Dragon Reborn is that he is the Dragon who is reborn; ie. that he is the rebirth of Lews Therin Telamon. After all, LTT was the Dragon, wasn't he?

Technically yes he was the Dragon and he would be reborn, but just as being the Dragon was more than simply being in the world so his being THE Dragon Reborn had more conditions to it. He is the key, but the Pattern has to weave a lock for him or he is just another person. With the potential of the Dragon yes and technically a rebirth of the same soul, but not to fully become the Dragon Reborn yet.

GonzoTheGreat
10-02-2016, 07:29 AM
And would the DO have fallen for that armchair lawyering, or would he have gleefully scooped up this undefended yet useful Dragon?

Kimon
10-02-2016, 09:02 AM
And would the DO have fallen for that armchair lawyering, or would he have gleefully scooped up this undefended yet useful Dragon?

Yes - such as perhaps he did with not only Guaire, but also Davian, Yurian Stonebow, and Raolin Darksbane. Either he is just born twice during each full turn of the wheel, at the AoL and TG equivalents, or he is spun out many times, with those two being true Dragon spinnings, the others being premature/corrective spinnings where the wheel needs him as a "False Dragon" to re-poison the memory of the Dragon between his two full spinnings. It could be as simple as ensuring that not all the prereqs were fulfilled, such as not being born on Dragonmount, or not of a Maiden. The main problem with your interpretation, is how then can we logically account for Hawkwing's claim of having fought both alongside and against him thousands of times. Unless by that he means merely as a spirit/Hero, there is no indication of them coexisting in the flesh. I just don't see how we can reasonably make sense of Hawkwing's comment without Rand being spun out more than twice per turning.

GonzoTheGreat
10-02-2016, 09:14 AM
Or maybe the Third Age is special in that then the Dragon can only be spun out once, whereas he can appear more times in other Ages.

We don't have any reason to think that the DO would reappear during the Fourth Age, so obviously having the Dragon be born then doesn't carry this risk. And the same is true for most of the Second Age, which may have been a lot longer than the Third Age anyway.

Kimon
10-02-2016, 10:11 AM
Or maybe the Third Age is special in that then the Dragon can only be spun out once, whereas he can appear more times in other Ages.

We don't have any reason to think that the DO would reappear during the Fourth Age, so obviously having the Dragon be born then doesn't carry this risk. And the same is true for most of the Second Age, which may have been a lot longer than the Third Age anyway.

Maybe, but it seems to make more sense for the Heroes to be spun out only in the 2nd (Age of Legends) and 3rd (Age of Prophecy) Ages, with the 1st and 4th being largely empty cycles wherein the legends fade and are forgotten in part due to the absence of the Heroes. Which then leaves us with a problem in interpreting Hawkwing's comment unless both he and Rand are spun out many times, especially during the 3rd Age, as, excepting at the close of the 2nd, what need would there be for the presence of either of them in it?

Perhaps they coexisted in that climactic moment that concluded the 2nd Age, but then who is Hawkwing supposed to be? Culan Cuhan? No one else is mentioned but Aiel and channelers, and Culan Cuhan probably is an Aes Sedai as well. So if they didn't coexist in the flesh as Hawkwing and Guaire, then when? It also strikes me as odd that only those four are mentioned, and mentioned by Ishamael, as if intending for Rand to recognize that he was the sixth in a pattern - Lews Therin, Raolin, Yurian, Davian, Guaire, and then Rand. Two full incarnations, and four partial?

That pattern also has peculiar spacing:

Lews Therin - the Breaking (right at close of AoL)
Raolin Darksbane - 335 AB
Yurian Stonebow - 1300 AB (right at the close of AB)
Davian - 351 FY
Guaire Amalasan - 943 FY (right at the close of FY)
Rand al'Thor - 998 NE (right at close of NE)

Is some unnamed incarnation missing perhaps between Guaire and Rand, around 300-350 NE? Are Raolin and Davian red herrings? I still think it makes sense that those names were remembered for a reason...

GonzoTheGreat
10-02-2016, 10:33 AM
Maybe, but it seems to make more sense for the Heroes to be spun out only in the 2nd (Age of Legends) and 3rd (Age of Prophecy) Ages, with the 1st and 4th being largely empty cycles wherein the legends fade and are forgotten in part due to the absence of the Heroes. Which then leaves us with a problem in interpreting Hawkwing's comment unless both he and Rand are spun out many times, especially during the 3rd Age, as, excepting at the close of the 2nd, what need would there be for the presence of either of them in it?
It also leaves us wondering what to do with inconvenient evidence, such as the fact that Gaidal Cain and Birgitte did actually get spun out in the Fourth Age. And the fact that some of the available evidence seems to come from yet another Age (with Moon landings and such).

Do you have a suggestion for how to overlook all that evidence?

Edited to add another inconvenient truth. Namely the fact that the Horn of Valere wasn't made in either the 2nd or the 3rd Age. So in at least one other Age were the Heroes known well enough to induce someone to manufacture that thing.

Kimon
10-02-2016, 11:09 AM
It also leaves us wondering what to do with inconvenient evidence, such as the fact that Gaidal Cain and Birgitte did actually get spun out in the Fourth Age. And the fact that some of the available evidence seems to come from yet another Age (with Moon landings and such).

Do you have a suggestion for how to overlook all that evidence?


Sure, Birgitte wasn't spun out this time, she was pulled out, and pulled out in the 3rd. Gaidal, while he'll come of age in the 4th, presumably was born right at the close of the 3rd. And there seems an obvious difference from the beginning of the 4th, when the memory of these legends will be fresh, and the close, when they should have faded, or fading with the full loss coming in the 1st. Do you have any evidence of either of them ever being spun out actually in the 4th, or moreover, in the 1st? If all you are pointing to is Birgitte's presence during TG and its aftermath, and Gaidal's proximate birth, that is in no way contrary to the point that I made.

Edited to add another inconvenient truth. Namely the fact that the Horn of Valere wasn't made in either the 2nd or the 3rd Age. So in at least one other Age were the Heroes known well enough to induce someone to manufacture that thing.

We don't know when it was made, but if it was a relic found during the 2nd Age, and then stored for use in the 3rd, again it isn't in any way evidence against the point that I made. There is no evidence of its use in the 1st or the 4th. Its use would be remembered during the first few centuries, perhaps even nearly, or all, of the 4th. But there would be no clear need for its use, and it would be nothing but an odd relic, perhaps a museum piece with but a name, for the 1st Age, then with a prophecy in the 2nd explaining its need during the close of the 3rd. But there is no clear evidence of it being sounded more than once during each full turn of the wheel. Heroes bound to it would still be spun out in the 2nd and 3rd (perhaps even beginning of the 4th), but presumably not sounded, only used during those times as a repository, but only once as an instrument.

Nazbaque
10-02-2016, 12:30 PM
And would the DO have fallen for that armchair lawyering, or would he have gleefully scooped up this undefended yet useful Dragon?

He doesn't have a say while the Seals are still strong. The best you get is Ishamael who is partially sealed as well. Remember that when he is not one of the true incarnations he doesn't have a massive effect on the Pattern for the DO to read. He would just appear to be a normal Hero, if Heroes are always spun out to be Heroes and never as normal people.

On the other hand I don't think any of the false Dragons were a rebirth of Rand/LTT. Those were men who hungered power where Rand was driven by duty and by all accounts LTT wasn't an oppressive ruler so he must have had some sense of duty. The false Dragons experienced something that could be interpreted as a fulfillment of one of the prophesies and declared themselves as DR. How many before Rand accepted that he was the DR?

The false Dragons have a purpose, but that purpose requires them to be different sort of men than the true Dragon.

SomeOneElse
10-04-2016, 07:00 AM
Lews Therin - the Breaking (right at close of AoL)
Raolin Darksbane - 335 AB
Yurian Stonebow - 1300 AB (right at the close of AB)
Davian - 351 FY
Guaire Amalasan - 943 FY (right at the close of FY)
Rand al'Thor - 998 NE (right at close of NE)

Again that would make any sense only if the Wheel had very limited number of channeling-capable souls. That is not true especially because there were lot more channelers in AOL than in 3rd age so they could be re-spun and cover all needs without touching Dragon's soul.

For me I always thought the soul could be spun only once in the age and Dragons soul is very special meaning it pops up at the time it is actually needed.
how then can we logically account for Hawkwing's claim of having fought both alongside and against him thousands of times.

Most likely Hawkwing, being summoned by The Horn, remembers all of his incarnations as well as times when he was summoned previously. So he could fight against the Dragon (as LTT) in the AOL and now he's fighting alongside and that gets repeated all the time with some twists.

GonzoTheGreat
10-04-2016, 07:58 AM
For me I always thought the soul could be spun only once in the age and Dragons soul is very special meaning it pops up at the time it is actually needed.Birgitte was spun out a whole bunch of times in the Third Age. But simple statistics suggest that there are likely other souls who weren't spun out in the Third Age at all, since the population density was always relatively low during that period.

The Dragon Soul is special at the end of the 2nd Age and during the 3rd Age. So it stands to reason that it will only be spun out in specific times then. However, there's no indication that we know of that there were similar limitations in any other of the remaining five Ages (or indeed in most of the 2nd Age), so the Dragon can have been spun out frequently then.

Nazbaque
10-04-2016, 09:24 AM
Again that would make any sense only if the Wheel had very limited number of channeling-capable souls. That is not true especially because there were lot more channelers in AOL than in 3rd age so they could be re-spun and cover all needs without touching Dragon's soul.

Your insistense depends on all souls being treated on equal terms. It may be that some souls get spun out very frequently while others wait a whole turn and in the next turning of the Wheel it might be the other way around. Think of the Pattern as giving tasks or a role to a soul that are in no way dependant on what that soul did in the previous turning. Normal souls are not tied to the Wheel.

For Heroes it is different. There are only a hundred or so, they get spun out frequently and the Pattern wants a specific soul for those roles for as many turnings as possible.

The question is is the Dragon a special role for an otherwise normal Hero soul or is it an even more special soul reserved for perhaps one role in each age.

Hawkwing's comment can mean one of the following:

1) Every single one of the fights happens when Rand is Lews Therin and Hawking means that during that incarnation he fights some battles on the same side and some on opposing side. He must be dead during TG and just before it or he wouldn't answer to the sounding of the Horn. This would allow the Rand only gets out twice in one Turn theory.

2) Rand gets spun out once per Age and in some of them Hawkwing is an enemy and in others he is a friend or possibly both as in option 1.

3) While Rand has the special incarnations as Dragon and Dragon Reborn he also gets incarnated as normal Heroes do and in these lives he and Hawkwing meet as enemies or friends or both.

4) It may be that being very strongly ta'veren is demanding even for a Hero's soul and so Rand and Hawkwing don't get more action during those two Ages, but in the other five they get spun out more frequently and Hawkwing's comment refers to battles in those Ages.

Personally I favour the third option, though once again I don't believe Rand is ever a false Dragon. A false Dragon has to have the kind of personality that easily believes he has fulfilled a prophecy and then declares himself as the Dragon Reborn. Rand clearly takes the view that if he doesn't fulfill every prophecy then isn't the real thing and anything else is coincidence. Of course I could be wrong in this and Rand being the way he is is more due to his upbringing than his basic nature or of course there is the point of taint madness. Still it feels wrong for Rand to be a false Dragon and especially wrong for him to be all of the ones before his time because there clearly are false Dragons that aren't Rand's incarnations. Since Taim and Logain are non-Rand false Dragons, why should the others be Rand's incarnations rather than for example Taim's and Logain's?

GonzoTheGreat
10-04-2016, 12:07 PM
But is it necessary for the Dragon reborn to fulfil prophecies in order to be the DR?
I would say that being the rebirth of the Dragon is what makes him the DR; those prophecies merely provide evidence to show (to himself and others) that he is the real deal.

Nazbaque
10-04-2016, 12:56 PM
But is it necessary for the Dragon reborn to fulfil prophecies in order to be the DR?
I would say that being the rebirth of the Dragon is what makes him the DR; those prophecies merely provide evidence to show (to himself and others) that he is the real deal.

The rebirth is the basis for his title. And that is all it is, a title. The Pattern has a role for him and that requires for both him and the world to realise that the duty is his. It is this role that defines who he is and what he must do. When the Pattern comes close to TG the DR is spun out for this role, but that does not mean he can't have other roles earlier in the Third Age. He simply doesn't have to be known as a rebirth of LTT for those roles.

This is like de facto vs de jure. At a certain age you get to buy booze, but your ability to handle it doesn't depend on having reached that age. If you are significantly younger you probably can't handle it and shouldn't be allowed to buy it, but just being older doesn't mean you can handle it and you definitely don't just flip from one to the other on the day you reach that age. It doesn't even mean that there is booze to buy or that you've got the money to buy it with. So in a de jure sense he is Dragon Reborn every time he is reborn, but without the de facto role in TG it's just a minor detail. Just because he is a rebirth doesn't mean there's a TG for him to have to handle.

Kimon
10-04-2016, 03:48 PM
Personally I favour the third option, though once again I don't believe Rand is ever a false Dragon. A false Dragon has to have the kind of personality that easily believes he has fulfilled a prophecy and then declares himself as the Dragon Reborn. Rand clearly takes the view that if he doesn't fulfill every prophecy then isn't the real thing and anything else is coincidence.

I find it difficult to make sense of Hawkwing's statement without this third option, moreover, it could also explain why sometimes Hawkwing fought by his side, and why at times he fought against him. The former would include as a bound Hero, such as at Falme and Merrilor, perhaps indeed all the times they fight on the same side are of this sort (since there is no clear indication, nor even hint, of Hawkwing active in the flesh in the AoL climax), of the Lews Therin-anima in the flesh, and the Hawkwing-anima in the spirit. But, that an uber-soul, like Hawkwing, was also needed for another particular, and extremely dangerous recurring circumstance, during the spinning out of the premature Rand-anima (i.e. as Guaire), wherein he is insane, probably is convinced that he is the Dragon, but is being manipulated by a combination of his own insanity and Ishamael. Thus as the True Dragon, Rand is there to save the world, and as the False (but well-intentioned crazy) Dragon, Hawkwing is there to save the world from him.

There is less reason to include the others, but for the fact that those are the historic false dragons that are named. I think a strong case for including at least Yurian as well upon the basis of his spinning marking the end of era. There is less reason for suggesting Raolin and Davian, basically just that they are named while the other false dragons were forgotten. That leaves me with the implication that they were perhaps Heroic animae, which would seem to suggest incarnations of Rand.

Nazbaque
10-04-2016, 04:55 PM
I find it difficult to make sense of Hawkwing's statement without this third option, moreover, it could also explain why sometimes Hawkwing fought by his side, and why at times he fought against him. The former would include as a bound Hero, such as at Falme and Merrilor, perhaps indeed all the times they fight on the same side are of this sort (since there is no clear indication, nor even hint, of Hawkwing active in the flesh in the AoL climax), of the Lews Therin-anima in the flesh, and the Hawkwing-anima in the spirit. But, that an uber-soul, like Hawkwing, was also needed for another particular, and extremely dangerous recurring circumstance, during the spinning out of the premature Rand-anima (i.e. as Guaire), wherein he is insane, probably is convinced that he is the Dragon, but is being manipulated by a combination of his own insanity and Ishamael. Thus as the True Dragon, Rand is there to save the world, and as the False (but well-intentioned crazy) Dragon, Hawkwing is there to save the world from him.

Now you are contradicting yourself. If you insist that Rand gets more than his Dragon incarnations you have to allow Hawkwing's other incarnations. The comment makes perfect sense if Hawkwing and Rand both have lesser incarnations, but if only one of them is to have lesser ones that would be Hawkwing not Rand.

You also can't use the taint madness as proof that Rand has to be in the wrong. There are more roads to the darkness than that and in fact the one incarnation of Hawkwing we know of is often described as being manipulated by the Shadow, though usually from the WT PoV. Moreover neither of them has to be in the wrong. Sometimes one man's good stands in the way of another man's good. Assume for example that Hawkwing's life fitted well with the Arthurian legends and Rand was incarnated as Lancelot's counterpart.

Marie Curie 7
10-04-2016, 06:54 PM
We still have an Interview Database. :p

Interview: Oct 22nd, 1998
TPOD Signing Report - Pam Basham (Paraphrased) (http://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=86#3)

Pam Basham
Regarding the Dragon and the Dragon Reborn (and Graendal's thoughts about Ishamael's musings):
"Is this soul born in any other Age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as the Dragon/the Dragon Reborn?"

Robert Jordan
This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other Ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age.

Pam Basham
In the course of this answer, he related this to why Hawkwing calls Rand "Lews Therin" at Falme—because Hawkwing recognizes this soul. This didn't really tell me why he specifically calls him "Lews Therin", but apparently they've been hangin' together in Tel'aran'rhiod and the etiquette there is to call each other by the name of your last incarnation. (My interpretation.)

Kimon
10-04-2016, 07:19 PM
Now you are contradicting yourself. If you insist that Rand gets more than his Dragon incarnations you have to allow Hawkwing's other incarnations. The comment makes perfect sense if Hawkwing and Rand both have lesser incarnations, but if only one of them is to have lesser ones that would be Hawkwing not Rand.


We aren't left with much to go on here. For Rand we have his two certain lives, plus hints that point at those specific false dragons. Nothing else, and of those, only Guaire really seeming obvious, due to Hawkwing's comment. But Hawkwing? There is only evidence for one life each cycle, and nothing that even serves as a hint for him appearing elsewhere. Who is he supposed to be in the AoL battle? It seems like RJ should have left a hint of someone that could have been him in that spinning, but aside for Culan Cuhan, there seemingly is no possibility. With Rand there are options, realistic possibilities. With Hawkwing there is absence. The only hint that we have in reference to Hawkwing's other lives is that comment that links him specifically to Rand, which is why Guaire only makes sense as Rand. Otherwise what Hawkwing said at Falme seems utter nonsense.

You also can't use the taint madness as proof that Rand has to be in the wrong. There are more roads to the darkness than that and in fact the one incarnation of Hawkwing we know of is often described as being manipulated by the Shadow, though usually from the WT PoV. Moreover neither of them has to be in the wrong. Sometimes one man's good stands in the way of another man's good. Assume for example that Hawkwing's life fitted well with the Arthurian legends and Rand was incarnated as Lancelot's counterpart.

What wrong? Why are you reading any of those early false dragons as evil? Being able to channel meant they would go insane, and were dangerous, but none did anything that remotely qualified as evil in the books. Napoleon was a great conqueror that needed to be stopped, but that didn't make Napoleon evil, and Wellington good. I see a similar relationship between Guaire and Hawkwing.

Nazbaque
10-04-2016, 11:48 PM
We aren't left with much to go on here. For Rand we have his two certain lives, plus hints that point at those specific false dragons. Nothing else, and of those, only Guaire really seeming obvious, due to Hawkwing's comment. But Hawkwing? There is only evidence for one life each cycle, and nothing that even serves as a hint for him appearing elsewhere. Who is he supposed to be in the AoL battle? It seems like RJ should have left a hint of someone that could have been him in that spinning, but aside for Culan Cuhan, there seemingly is no possibility. With Rand there are options, realistic possibilities. With Hawkwing there is absence. The only hint that we have in reference to Hawkwing's other lives is that comment that links him specifically to Rand, which is why Guaire only makes sense as Rand. Otherwise what Hawkwing said at Falme seems utter nonsense.
What hints? You are trying to build a house of cards with nothing in the bottom. There are no hints anywhere about Rand being incarnated as an FD. We have Ishamael words that can be taken a number of different ways from poisoning Rand's mind against the WT to making him doubt he is the real thing. There is an era pattern, but that in no way indicates that Rand's soul is involved. We have Hawkwing's words which do imply non-Dragon incarnations, but absolutely no indication on when they occur. There aren't even any hints on FD having Hero souls at all.
What wrong? Why are you reading any of those early false dragons as evil? Being able to channel meant they would go insane, and were dangerous, but none did anything that remotely qualified as evil in the books. Napoleon was a great conqueror that needed to be stopped, but that didn't make Napoleon evil, and Wellington good. I see a similar relationship between Guaire and Hawkwing.
Isn't that other way round? Hawkwing was the mad conqueror that needed stopping like Napoleon. Guaire is closer to Wellington. He just lost in WoT.

And the point really isn't in what they are but what they do. You somehow can't get past Hawkwing and Rand fighting each other without Rand being an FD. The conditions that would allow this also allow for much more reasonable explanations than Rand being Guaire. Hawkwing first fighting against the Shadow with LTT and then against him when he went mad for one. How can you seriously throw that out of the window in favour of Rand being Guaire?

Kimon
10-05-2016, 06:56 AM
What hints? You are trying to build a house of cards with nothing in the bottom. There are no hints anywhere about Rand being incarnated as an FD. We have Ishamael words that can be taken a number of different ways from poisoning Rand's mind against the WT to making him doubt he is the real thing. There is an era pattern, but that in no way indicates that Rand's soul is involved. We have Hawkwing's words which do imply non-Dragon incarnations, but absolutely no indication on when they occur. There aren't even any hints on FD having Hero souls at all.
?

Those are the hints - Ishamael's suggestion + Hawkwing's hint about fighting at times against him + those specific false dragons attaining enough glory to earn a name recognized through history. All that suggests Heroic souls to me, especially when their lives fit a pattern in their placements that includes Lews Therin and Rand. They seem intended to be seen as spokes on the wheel.

And the point really isn't in what they are but what they do. You somehow can't get past Hawkwing and Rand fighting each other without Rand being an FD. The conditions that would allow this also allow for much more reasonable explanations than Rand being Guaire. Hawkwing first fighting against the Shadow with LTT and then against him when he went mad for one. How can you seriously throw that out of the window in favour of Rand being Guaire?

There is no evidence for Hawkwing during the War of Power. The only certain incarnation for him is with that famous name, and against Amalasan. The only certain time he fought alongside Rand is when the Horn is sounded.

GonzoTheGreat
10-05-2016, 07:27 AM
And the entire evidence for the idea that it didn't happen in an Age of which we have no information is that we don't have information from that Age. Which, all in all, is not particularly convincing to me.

Daekyras
10-05-2016, 08:18 AM
We still have an Interview Database. :p

So we don't actually know, we just have the interpretation of this Pam person.

Hmm, im dubious....

Nazbaque
10-05-2016, 10:51 AM
Those are the hints - Ishamael's suggestion + Hawkwing's hint about fighting at times against him + those specific false dragons attaining enough glory to earn a name recognized through history. All that suggests Heroic souls to me, especially when their lives fit a pattern in their placements that includes Lews Therin and Rand. They seem intended to be seen as spokes on the wheel.



There is no evidence for Hawkwing during the War of Power. The only certain incarnation for him is with that famous name, and against Amalasan. The only certain time he fought alongside Rand is when the Horn is sounded.

You can't have it both ways Kimon. There is no evidence for Guaire being a Hero and even less for it to be Rand. If you insist that those hints count as evidence and frankly I don't even see them as hints, then absence of evidence not being evidence of absence you have to accept the possibility that Hawkwing was there during the AoL and is refering to that or that there are numerous incarnations we don't know about and thus Guaire doesn't have to be Rand for the comment to make sense.

If Rand can be Guaire, Hawkwing can be in the AoL and there can be a dozen or more incarnations for both just in the time between LTT and Rand. You can't insist that Rand being Guaire is the only sensible explanation for the comment when the condition for that open up so many other possibilities.

Your insistence on no evidence about Hawkwing in AoL is particularly flimsy when two of the core points in WoT is that Rand being LTT is the only definitely known reincarnation and much of AoL is forgotten. If Hawkwing's comment doesn't count as a hint/evidence for his AoL incarnation then it doesn't count for Rand being Guaire. Nothing Ishamael says counts as hints or evidence when he could be lying, mistaken or delusional. The era pattern only shows a more specific part of the Pattern, but we already know that false Dragons turn up when the Pattern prepares for the real one so there is no reason why the end of era FDs can't be like Logain. You could even say that Logain's choices for false names are a hint of him being a reincarnation for those FD and the one he wanted but Siuan wouldn't allow was Guaire.

Weird Harold
10-05-2016, 02:17 PM
We still have an Interview Database. So we don't actually know, we just have the interpretation of this Pam person.

Hmm, im dubious....

We also have the direct quote from RJ that the Dragon Soul is spun out in non-dragon incarnations in other ages.

That pretty much settles the question of when "Hawkwing" and "LTT" could have fought together and against each other.

Over the time I've been here at Theoryland, the consensus has always been consistent with Pam's assertion: Heroes are known by the name of their last incarnation. IMHO, it is the only explanation that doesn't raise more questions than it answers.

Kimon
10-05-2016, 03:41 PM
You can't have it both ways Kimon. There is no evidence for Guaire being a Hero and even less for it to be Rand. If you insist that those hints count as evidence and frankly I don't even see them as hints, then absence of evidence not being evidence of absence you have to accept the possibility that Hawkwing was there during the AoL and is refering to that or that there are numerous incarnations we don't know about and thus Guaire doesn't have to be Rand for the comment to make sense.

If Rand can be Guaire, Hawkwing can be in the AoL and there can be a dozen or more incarnations for both just in the time between LTT and Rand. You can't insist that Rand being Guaire is the only sensible explanation for the comment when the condition for that open up so many other possibilities.

Your insistence on no evidence about Hawkwing in AoL is particularly flimsy when two of the core points in WoT is that Rand being LTT is the only definitely known reincarnation and much of AoL is forgotten. If Hawkwing's comment doesn't count as a hint/evidence for his AoL incarnation then it doesn't count for Rand being Guaire. Nothing Ishamael says counts as hints or evidence when he could be lying, mistaken or delusional. The era pattern only shows a more specific part of the Pattern, but we already know that false Dragons turn up when the Pattern prepares for the real one so there is no reason why the end of era FDs can't be like Logain. You could even say that Logain's choices for false names are a hint of him being a reincarnation for those FD and the one he wanted but Siuan wouldn't allow was Guaire.

This is illogical, Naz. Hawkwing clearly states that he has fought against and with Rand. We have a clear example of the latter, when the Horn was sounded at Falme. For the former, the only reasonable option is Guaire. We have no evidence for Hawkwing active in AoL. Maybe he was there, but that is an argument from silence. You need to come up with another rational explanation for him fighting against Rand. Guaire would. Yurian and the others wouldn't, which is why I find them less likely than Guaire, but for their names. Weird Harold at least gives a reasonable counter argument, that if Rand was Guaire, then why not address him as Guaire at Falme. That is a reasonable argument. Yours is not.

Nazbaque
10-05-2016, 04:07 PM
This is illogical, Naz. Hawkwing clearly states that he has fought against and with Rand. We have a clear example of the latter, when the Horn was sounded at Falme. For the former, the only reasonable option is Guaire. We have no evidence for Hawkwing active in AoL. Maybe he was there, but that is an argument from silence. You need to come up with another rational explanation for him fighting against Rand. Guaire would. Yurian and the others wouldn't, which is why I find them less likely than Guaire, but for their names. Weird Harold at least gives a reasonable counter argument, that if Rand was Guaire, then why not address him as Guaire at Falme. That is a reasonable argument. Yours is not.

Oh please the only unreasonable part here is your inability to let go of an idea. You aren't suggesting this as a possibility, but insist that it's the only one that makes sense. So prove it. Prove in a clear way that Hawkwing wasn't there in AoL. Prove that within the entire turning of the Wheel there are no moments when Rand and Hawkwing meet other than the Sounding and Rand being Guaire. And remember Kimon: ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE. Just because we don't get hints about something doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Kimon
10-05-2016, 05:35 PM
Oh please the only unreasonable part here is your inability to let go of an idea. You aren't suggesting this as a possibility, but insist that it's the only one that makes sense. So prove it. Prove in a clear way that Hawkwing wasn't there in AoL. Prove that within the entire turning of the Wheel there are no moments when Rand and Hawkwing meet other than the Sounding and Rand being Guaire. And remember Kimon: ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE. Just because we don't get hints about something doesn't mean it didn't happen.

It can't be proven. It still is the most logical way to make sense of Hawkwing's statement. This is however a perfect example of why it is so difficult to take you seriously.

Rand al'Fain
10-05-2016, 07:19 PM
It can't be proven. It still is the most logical way to make sense of Hawkwing's statement. This is however a perfect example of why it is so difficult to take you seriously.

No, not really. We have several other Ages, spanning who knows how many centuries, if not millennia, a piece. It is certainly not outside the realm of possibility that Rand and Artur met in those lives, under different names. Both with and against each other.

Artur, and indeed, the other Heroes of the Horn, addressing Rand as Lews Therin, only promotes the idea that Rand's last life was as LTT. Even the Dark One calls him Lews Therin. Not "Guaire" or "Yurian", but "Lews Therin".

And what if, say that in a different age, someone sounded the horn to call forth the Dragon and the other Heroes to fight against that incarnation of Artur Hawking?

Your theory on Rand HAVING to be a previous False Dragon would mean disregarding previous ages and incarnations of people within the WOT universe, and long established facts about it. Or at the very least, heavily limiting the possibilities while, still, disregarding previous Ages and lives.

Kimon
10-05-2016, 09:01 PM
No, not really. We have several other Ages, spanning who knows how many centuries, if not millennia, a piece. It is certainly not outside the realm of possibility that Rand and Artur met in those lives, under different names. Both with and against each other.

Artur, and indeed, the other Heroes of the Horn, addressing Rand as Lews Therin, only promotes the idea that Rand's last life was as LTT. Even the Dark One calls him Lews Therin. Not "Guaire" or "Yurian", but "Lews Therin".

And what if, say that in a different age, someone sounded the horn to call forth the Dragon and the other Heroes to fight against that incarnation of Artur Hawking?

Your theory on Rand HAVING to be a previous False Dragon would mean disregarding previous ages and incarnations of people within the WOT universe, and long established facts about it. Or at the very least, heavily limiting the possibilities while, still, disregarding previous Ages and lives.

The problem with the other ages is that their purpose seems less inclined towards the creation of myths, and hence of Heroes. The 2nd Age is the Age of Legends, the 3rd Age is the Age of Prophecy. The 4th and 1st Ages are resets. It's not completely outside the realm of possibility, but Heroes belong in the mythic past, in those ages of legend and prophecy. By contrast, ours seemingly is meant to the the 1st Age. So to find a potential example from the silence of the 1st Age one would be left with only the potential of elements from our own history, like of Napoleon and Wellington. But that would be disregarding the obvious to embrace the outlandish. Guaire is the only example in the books that makes sense of what Hawkwing said. It is, however, not without its own problems, but it still seems the situation that was meant to be immediately envisioned from what Hawkwing said. That does not mean that it may not just be a red herring.

Weird Harold
10-05-2016, 10:58 PM
But that would be disregarding the obvious to embrace the outlandish

As opposed to disregarding the Creator's Word that the Dragon Soul is incarnated in other ages in non-dragon roles?

Not to mention a decade or more of forum consensus that LTT was NOT incarnate since the Breaking and HotH refer to each other as their last incarnation.

Kimon
10-05-2016, 11:41 PM
As opposed to disregarding the Creator's Word that the Dragon Soul is incarnated in other ages in non-dragon roles?

Not to mention a decade or more of forum consensus that LTT was NOT incarnate since the Breaking and HotH refer to each other as their last incarnation.

Pam Basham
Regarding the Dragon and the Dragon Reborn (and Graendal's thoughts about Ishamael's musings):
"Is this soul born in any other Age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as the Dragon/the Dragon Reborn?"

Robert Jordan
This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other Ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age.

I don't see a conflict here between what I'm suggesting and what RJ said here. He doesn't say that the Dragon soul is only spun out as the Dragon during the 2nd or 3rd. Guaire would be a non-dragon spinning. This strikes me as similar to the Taimandred situation, in that it is nigh impossible to read that Hawkwing passage and not think immediately of Guaire. That might just have been an intentional red herring, but either way, it seems intentional.

Concerning the other issue, the naming conventions, are we really sure that Birgitte's most recent name was Birgitte? She was frequently spun, many times in the 3rd, and we know of at least one other name that she had been known by, Maerion. Birgitte clearly is the most famous, but the most recent?

Nazbaque
10-06-2016, 03:24 AM
It can't be proven. It still is the most logical way to make sense of Hawkwing's statement. This is however a perfect example of why it is so difficult to take you seriously.

Oh and isn't that the real point here. You take this personally. You think my general attitude counts as evidence one way or another.

Well then, let's get personal.

Your answer to the AoL Hawkwing suggestion is "no evidence, doesn't make sense." and then I'm difficult by saying that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

I take the view that there are several possibilities, but you are the one who insists on a specific one and then I'm difficult by demanding that you prove it.

This clearly shows that you haven't learned a certain lesson which I have and that is humility in face of the unknown.

And then you go and use the word "logical" in a way which shows that like most people you don't understand the concept.

I take this thread as proof that I am your mental superior. And now that I've said it you think even less of me and quite probably so do other people. But for me finding this proof is another setback, because I want to find someone who can keep up with me. I've had such hopes for some people and I still do, but for you Kimon it is clear that at least for now your vanity still holds you back.

How's that for personal?

GonzoTheGreat
10-06-2016, 04:00 AM
Not to mention a decade or more of forum consensus that ... HotH refer to each other as their last incarnation.
That particular consensus seems a bit weakened by the fact that it does not actually apply to the Hero we know most about: Birgitte. She has had a bunch of other names, and her last known incarnation (the one in which she went into the ToG) was hardly known at all by the time of the main events in the books.

It seems more likely that they're known by whatever name for them is best known. Basically the same thing that the Forsaken did, albeit with somewhat different connotations to it.

Nazbaque
10-06-2016, 04:44 AM
That particular consensus seems a bit weakened by the fact that it does not actually apply to the Hero we know most about: Birgitte. She has had a bunch of other names, and her last known incarnation (the one in which she went into the ToG) was hardly known at all by the time of the main events in the books.

It seems more likely that they're known by whatever name for them is best known. Basically the same thing that the Forsaken did, albeit with somewhat different connotations to it.

Do we actually see another T'A'R state Hero call her "Birgitte"? I don't really agree with this consensus either, but just because most characters call her "Birgitte" doesn't mean she is called that in T'A'R.

Kimon
10-06-2016, 06:55 AM
Your answer to the AoL Hawkwing suggestion is "no evidence, doesn't make sense." and then I'm difficult by saying that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

I take the view that there are several possibilities, but you are the one who insists on a specific one and then I'm difficult by demanding that you prove it.


No, Naz. I'm saying that I think hypothetical scenarios from outside what was written in the books should hold less weight than what was written in the books.

This clearly shows that you haven't learned a certain lesson which I have and that is humility in face of the unknown.

And then you go and use the word "logical" in a way which shows that like most people you don't understand the concept.

I take this thread as proof that I am your mental superior.

This is exactly the kind of issue that I was referring to with my earlier comment, Naz.

GonzoTheGreat
10-06-2016, 07:53 AM
Do we actually see another T'A'R state Hero call her "Birgitte"? I don't really agree with this consensus either, but just because most characters call her "Birgitte" doesn't mean she is called that in T'A'R.
That's the name she uses when talking to living people:
"I am Birgitte," the woman said, leaning on her bow. "At least, that is the name you would know. And the lesson might have been yours, here as surely as in the Three-fold Land. I remember the lives I have lived as if they were books well-read, the longer gone dimmer than the nearer, but I remember well when I fought at Lews Therin's side. I will never forget Moghedien's face, any more than I will forget the face of Asmodean, the man you almost disturbed at Rhuidean."So, it is possible that Hawkwing doesn't use LTT because that is what he uses in TAR, but because that's the name that Rand and the others would recognise.

Nazbaque
10-06-2016, 08:31 AM
No, Naz. I'm saying that I think hypothetical scenarios from outside what was written in the books should hold less weight than what was written in the books.
And Guaire = Rand was written where exactly? Hawkwing's comment can just as easily be taken as a hint for him being there in AoL or several other ways. It's only in your head that it points to Guaire = Rand. Logain's wish to use Guaire as an alias is a much clearer hint for him having been Guaire, but you won't even comment on that. Are you just disregarding the books when they don't support your ideas?

This is exactly the kind of issue that I was referring to with my earlier comment, Naz.

See? Your vanity holds you back. You have no humility and therefore can't be truly logical.

Kimon
10-06-2016, 09:30 AM
And Guaire = Rand was written where exactly? Hawkwing's comment can just as easily be taken as a hint for him being there in AoL or several other ways. It's only in your head that it points to Guaire = Rand. Logain's wish to use Guaire as an alias is a much clearer hint for him having been Guaire, but you won't even comment on that. Are you just disregarding the books when they don't support your ideas?


In AoL, if Hawkwing was there, of which there is no certainty, they would be fighting on the same side. With Guaire, not only was Hawkwing obviously there, but it would be a situation in which they would be fighting on opposite sides.

You're going to have to point me to a citation with Logain calling himself Guaire, because it's not ringing a bell, and after a quick search, I can't find anything on it. I remember Logain using the alias Dalyn, when/where does he call himself Guaire?

Addendum:

Finally found what you were referring to - Siuan talked him out of calling himself Guaire, and he took the alias Dalyn instead. Better argument, but yeah, this one is more like WH's issue with why doesn't Hawkwing call Rand Guaire instead of Lewis Therin.

Nazbaque
10-06-2016, 11:42 AM
In AoL, if Hawkwing was there, of which there is no certainty, they would be fighting on the same side. With Guaire, not only was Hawkwing obviously there, but it would be a situation in which they would be fighting on opposite sides.

Hawkwing in AoL:

1) Hawkwing fights for the Light with LTT. LTT goes mad. Hawkwing fights against LTT.

2) Hawkwing is born in Shadow territory and fights against LTT. Hawkwing dies.

3) Hawkwing is born in Shadow territory and fights against LTT. Hawkwing turns to the Light and fights with LTT. Hawkwing dies.

4) Hawkwing is born in Shadow territory and fights against LTT. Hawkwing turns to the Light and fights with LTT. LTT goes mad. Hawkwing fights against LTT.

5) Hawkwing is born in Shadow territory and fights against LTT. Hawkwing turns to the Light. LTT goes mad. Hawkwing fights against LTT.

6) Darkfriend Hawkwing fights against LTT.

Problems:

1) How long between LTT going mad and LTT dying? Has Hawkwing a chance to face him?

2) Can Heroes be darkfriends? If not why bother trying to turn Rand?

3) Can Hawkwing survive in Shadow territory without taking dark oaths and binding his soul to the DO? Would those bonds break in death? Rand broke Asmodean's connection to the DO so any bond between Hawkwing and DO should be breakable. Lanfear however didn't know that it was possible so could it have happened without her knowledge? Or did she know and simply assume that a Forsaken's bond was beyond breaking? Hawkwing isn't a channeler and it is suggested numerous times that they are more vulnerable to the DO's methods.


I think there could be other possibilities, but I concentrated on the ones where Hawkwing might fight against LTT without being directly tied to the Shadow. Also we would do well to remember Verin's example in this. Heroes tied to the Shadow might still work against it in the end.

You're going to have to point me to a citation with Logain calling himself Guaire, because it's not ringing a bell, and after a quick search, I can't find anything on it. I remember Logain using the alias Dalyn, when/where does he call himself Guaire?

Addendum:

Finally found what you were referring to - Siuan talked him out of calling himself Guaire, and he took the alias Dalyn instead. Better argument, but yeah, this one is more like WH's issue with why doesn't Hawkwing call Rand Guaire instead of Lewis Therin.

Yet you see my point don't you? If Rand was Guaire then the Logain hint is just a red herring. But if Logain was Guaire, then you are reading too much into the Guaire/Hawkwing situation. Or both assumptions could be wrong.

One unfortunately likely explanation for any hint is RJ trollocing with red herrings, so we need more solid evidence than "it makes sense". We are looking for the truth and Occam's Razor is a poor tool for that endeavour.

Terez
10-06-2016, 10:59 PM
This thread is amazing. Haven't seen anyone seriously make this argument in years.

Other arguments aside, how can the real Dragon be a false Dragon? I mean, obviously he's sometimes born in a non-Dragon incarnation, but he can't be a false Dragon.

If Guaire Amalasan is anyone we know, it's Logain.

Nazbaque
10-07-2016, 04:53 AM
This thread is amazing. Haven't seen anyone seriously make this argument in years.

Other arguments aside, how can the real Dragon be a false Dragon? I mean, obviously he's sometimes born in a non-Dragon incarnation, but he can't be a false Dragon.

If Guaire Amalasan is anyone we know, it's Logain.

This is one beef I have with the idea, but it depends on how you define a false Dragon. There is the right time in the Pattern for Rand to be the DR, if he tries to be the Dragon in an in between incarnation he would have the true soul but it would be the false time.

My main beef is Rand's personality. Forcing him to believe he is the DR takes three books or at least the second and third book as the first book concentrates more and establishing the world itself. How would he come to believe it? Only after the taint madness sets in and then he might not live long enough to become a Guaire level threat.

GonzoTheGreat
10-07-2016, 06:37 AM
How to define a false Dragon is quite simple:
Someone who claims to be the Dragon reborn without actually being the Dragon reborn.

The other option, that of the Dragon being reborn without being the DR because the Pattern is telling lies seems rather out of character based on all we know.

Nazbaque
10-07-2016, 07:06 AM
How to define a false Dragon is quite simple:
Someone who claims to be the Dragon reborn without actually being the Dragon reborn.
And how do you define the Dragon Reborn? If you insist on simply being a rebirth of LTT then it just loops back to Rand being the first rebirth since his life as LTT and isn't Guaire by default.
The other option, that of the Dragon being reborn without being the DR because the Pattern is telling lies seems rather out of character based on all we know.
How did you get to that being the only alternative?

GonzoTheGreat
10-07-2016, 07:19 AM
And how do you define the Dragon Reborn? If you insist on simply being a rebirth of LTT then it just loops back to Rand being the first rebirth since his life as LTT and isn't Guaire by default.
Well, duh!

If he is reborn, then isn't he reborn?

It shall come to pass that what men made shall be shattered, and the Shadow shall lie across the Pattern of the Age, and the Dark One shall once more lay his hand upon the world of man. Women shall weep and men quail as the nations of the earth are rent like rotting cloth. Neither shall anything stand nor abide...
Yet one shall be born to face the Shadow, born once more as he was born before and shall be born again, time without end. The Dragon shall be Reborn, and there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth at his rebirth. In sackcloth and ashes shall he clothe the people, and he shall break the world again by his coming, tearing apart all ties that bind. Like the unfettered dawn shall he blind us, and burn us, yet shall the Dragon Reborn confront the Shadow at the Last Battle, and his blood shall give us the Light. Let tears flow, O ye people of the world.
Weep for your salvation.

from The Karaethon Cycle: The Prophecies of the Dragon, as translated by Ellaine Marise'idin Alshinn, Chief Librarian at the Court of Arafel, in the Year of Grace 231 of the New Era, the Third AgeThat quite specifically leaves out "born in between" as an alternative to "he was born before and shall be born again".

Do you have any kind of quote that could indicate that the Dragon had been reborn before Rand was left on Dragonmount?

Nazbaque
10-07-2016, 07:58 AM
Well, duh!
Now Gonzo don't prove yourself my mental inferior by believing that anything is obvious.
If he is reborn, then isn't he reborn?

That quite specifically leaves out "born in between" as an alternative to "he was born before and shall be born again".

Do you have any kind of quote that could indicate that the Dragon had been reborn before Rand was left on Dragonmount?

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, Gonzo. However your quote does seem to suggest there are no in between rebirths. So why did you sit on it for a week?

GonzoTheGreat
10-07-2016, 09:10 AM
It was obvious to the most casual reader. Plus, I hadn't searched with "born again" as a search term. Perhaps I have something of a blind spot for born again Dragons, or something.

Nazbaque
10-07-2016, 01:26 PM
Things are only obvious in hindsight. Nothing is obvious before the realisation which in turn proves that nothing is obvious at all. There is only the current you feeling embarrassed over how long it took to realise something and doing injustice to your past self's efforts.

To me the definition of wisdom now seems obvious but the history of mankind shows that it is not. This proves that I'm awesome though not nearly as awesome as I was in the moment of realisation when I hadn't yet gotten cocky about this achievement.

neurotopia
03-12-2017, 07:51 AM
Maybe RJ just wanted to subconsciously highlight that Lews Therin was possibly just Loose Therein.

Kimon
03-12-2017, 10:45 AM
Maybe RJ just wanted to subconsciously highlight that Lews Therin was possibly just Loose Therein.

Silly jokes aside, al'Thor was obviously intended to evoke Arthur. Do we know if Lews Therin was intended to evoke Uther?

fionwe1987
03-12-2017, 04:03 PM
Silly jokes aside, al'Thor was obviously intended to evoke Arthur. Do we know if Lews Therin was intended to evoke Uther?

I thought al'Thor was supposed to evoke... Thor?

Kimon
03-12-2017, 04:38 PM
I thought al'Thor was supposed to evoke... Thor?

He may have intended us to think of both names, but he especially seemed to draw from Camelot for the main cast (al'Thor (Arthur Pendragon), Merrilin (Merlin), Moiraine (Morgan le Fay), Morgase (Morgause), Egwene (Gwenevere), Lan (Lancelot), Gawyn (Gawain), Galad (Galahad), Elayne (Elaine - take your pick, there were a couple), Nynaeve (Nyneve and Nimue), Perrin (Percival).

Only major missing parallels are for Mat and Min.