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Great Lord of the Dark
04-20-2017, 04:59 PM
Real news, names and studios attached to the project. YAY!

Will they destroy that which I love most?

Right now, I don't care. I love this news. I love Wheel of Time. I love Theorylanders.

fionwe1987
04-20-2017, 06:53 PM
I suppose we should get used to this forum becoming a lot more active in the coming years...

Tedman
04-20-2017, 07:44 PM
I hadn't been here in years, or over at RAFO, which I think was supposed to be the home for those of us from Wotmania.

It was a nice break. I've only read specific passages or sections of books... but then I saw a thread Terez made http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=8767
which was linked deep in a ASOIAF thread about why its taking GRRM so long to finish.. and just wow. (this was 3-4 days ago, how fortunate and then I didn't miss todays news!).

and really, almost everything I never understood about WoT was resolved in one swift moment. Somehow I missed the link to that thread on reddit (I check into r/wot once a week or so).

Everything about Demandred felt clunky, it was so obvious it was Taim, and whats wrong with that? For those of us here, it is probably obvious that R+L=J from ASOIAF is the truth, but not for a lot of other people.

Anyways I hope the series is entertaining, I have a ton of objections to changes for no real reason like we've gotten at times in ASOIAF (though I think the series has been fantastic for the most part), or say HP where Hermoine becomes the smartest AND streetsmartest when Ron was actually that in the books, which was a triagle that worked well.

I'm afraid that Egwene and Nynaeve will become one person, Siuan and Leane would become one, etc, but at least we will have some new stuff to pore over obsessively.

Maybe even something from the Notes that RJ wished had been different might BE different on the show, and we will get to learn that. Its nice to be back.

Davian93
04-20-2017, 08:30 PM
I'm cautiously optimistic...

This would probably work best as an Amazon show or a Netflix show...I wonder who they'll try to get to pick it up...network wise that is.

Sukoto
04-20-2017, 08:44 PM
Well, let's hope something comes of it, at least. Maybe they're giving out more details at Jordancon? If anyone's interested, this guy (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafe_Judkins) is apparently the writer/showrunner.
Hey, I remember that guy from Survivor. That was what, ten or eleven years ago? Now that dude is a writer/producer. Huh. We'll see how it goes. I'm not expecting to be blown away by it, though.

Kimon
04-20-2017, 09:58 PM
I'm cautiously optimistic...

This would probably work best as an Amazon show or a Netflix show...I wonder who they'll try to get to pick it up...network wise that is.

Netflix would make a lot of sense, but I still think considering the length and the number of characters, that anything but animated would be very hard to pull off well. I'm not sure though (and a quick look at wikipedia for Sony Television subsidiaries isn't particularly illuminating on possibilities) if Sony's involvement gives much of a hint though on distribution. The wikipedia bio on the survivor dude (Rafe Judkins) that apparently is, at least at present, perhaps the main writer for this is not even remotely encouraging.

fionwe1987
04-20-2017, 10:21 PM
Sony has recently teamed up with AMC a lot. But unless AMC is ready to up its typical per episode budget, WoT will be doomed to mediocrity at best.

There were some rumors about Amazon. They must surely know how popular the books are, so there's a chance they'll pick it up. Apparently Sony has produced some shows for Amazon, so it isn't impossible.

Brita
04-20-2017, 10:22 PM
And far as I'm concerrned, it could be the best thing that ever happened to us or the worst. There is no in between. So I am simultaneously full of hope and dread.

rand
04-20-2017, 10:57 PM
The wikipedia bio on the survivor dude (Rafe Judkins) that apparently is, at least at present, perhaps the main writer for this is not even remotely encouraging.
I forget where, but I read in one of the articles today that he's a big WoT fan. So there's that, at least.

The producers/writers presumably know that this has to be something comparable to GoT, or even Shannara Chronicles, to even have a chance of working. Unless they don't really believe in it and they're just hoping to cash in on season 1. I guess we just have to hope they recognize the potential here. WoT can be every bit as successful as GoT...as long as they're willing to do it right.

fionwe1987
04-20-2017, 11:24 PM
The producers/writers presumably know that this has to be something comparable to GoT, or even Shannara Chronicles, to even have a chance of working. Unless they don't really believe in it and they're just hoping to cash in on season 1. I guess we just have to hope they recognize the potential here. WoT can be every bit as successful as GoT...as long as they're willing to do it right.
I think in today's TV landscape, a single season followed by cancellation is very low yielding. You want multiple seasons to build up ad buys, and merchandizing, and reruns...

I agree WoT lends itself very well to success IF they play it right. We'll have to see.

Kimon
04-21-2017, 12:10 AM
I forget where, but I read in one of the articles today that he's a big WoT fan. So there's that, at least.


So are we, and while we all should want someone who loves the source material, let's be blunt...

After Survivor, Judkins moved to Los Angeles to pursue a career in screenwriting. With his writing partner and best friend, Lauren LeFranc, he was staffed on the short-lived Christian Slater drama, My Own Worst Enemy. After that, he and Lauren were hired on the third season of Chuck.[2][3] Their episodes included Chuck Versus the Tic Tac,[2] Chuck Versus the Honeymooners,[2] Chuck Versus the First Fight, Chuck Versus the Push Mix, and the first of half of the series finale Chuck Versus Sarah. After a stint on "Hemlock Grove" they are now writing for Marvel's Agents of SHIELD.[4] On April 20, 2017, it was announced that Judkins would be writing the television adapatation of The Wheel of Time.[5]

...this is not an impressive cv. Mind you, it's possible that I am somewhat blinded here by a contempt for Survivor, but this does not even seem a mediocre cv. It doesn't inspire an impression that Sony has serious intentions here, nor intentions for the type of investment that would be needed to make this what it should be. This kid seems like the type of person one would hire to write the same sort of nonsense that was hidden within an infomercial timeslot. He seems like the type of kid that one would pay a few thousand bucks, and tell him to throw something together to air at 1:30 am on fxx so that you don't lose your filming rights.

DahLliA
04-21-2017, 08:00 AM
I was really hyped back when Harriet released the news that the rights were bought, but now I'm struggling to care.

Guess that's a good thing since it means low expectations.
Pretty sure that nothing short of HBO picking it up as the GoT follow-up can do it justice anyway.

Also a bit miffed that Red Eagle is still mentioned as being involved in some capacity or other.

Davian93
04-21-2017, 08:04 AM
Sony has recently teamed up with AMC a lot. But unless AMC is ready to up its typical per episode budget, WoT will be doomed to mediocrity at best.

There were some rumors about Amazon. They must surely know how popular the books are, so there's a chance they'll pick it up. Apparently Sony has produced some shows for Amazon, so it isn't impossible.

The Walking Dead is a great example of AMC's awfulness. Its easily the highest rated cable show and their budgets per season have always been a joke...as shown by the awful CGI and multiple bottle episodes each year despite only having 16 episodes a season.

AMC=Always More Commercials

Davian93
04-21-2017, 08:07 AM
Also a bit miffed that Red Eagle is still mentioned as being involved in some capacity or other.

Listed as Executive Producers no less...just awful to think about.

I agree with Brita overall...it could be awesome or it could be absolutely awful...with likely no middle ground.

rand
04-21-2017, 11:16 PM
I've been thinking about it, and the only viable option I can come up with is for them to hire every member of Theoryland as creative consultants and move us all into a mansion in Hollywood or wherever for the next 10 years. And an annual salary of $200,000. And cameo appearances as innkeepers and servants. But I don't see any other way they can do this right.

Terez
04-22-2017, 07:51 AM
The wikipedia bio on the survivor dude (Rafe Judkins) that apparently is, at least at present, perhaps the main writer for this is not even remotely encouraging.
Harriet told us at the directors' dinner the other night that she requested him and she thinks he's the best possible person for the job because of his longtime love for the series. I'm personally still not expecting much, for several reasons having nothing to do with that, but at least that's one positive note.

ShadowbaneX
04-22-2017, 11:37 AM
I'm cautiously optimistic...

This would probably work best as an Amazon show or a Netflix show...I wonder who they'll try to get to pick it up...network wise that is.
Depends on how true you want to keep the series. What might be the most "successful" is if you go HBO and up the adult content. You could even keep Elayne's bath scenes in for the nudity.

Kimon
04-22-2017, 12:48 PM
Depends on how true you want to keep the series. What might be the most "successful" is if you go HBO and up the adult content. You could even keep Elayne's bath scenes in for the nudity.

It doesn't need gratuitous nudity to be successful, and there isn't any "adult" content in the first book that wouldn't be gratuitous. I'm more worried about the quality of the writing (and this kid does not inspire confidence, it sounds like he just knew the right people to open a door, and, more importantly, BS apparently wasn't interested in doing it himself), the quality of the acting (this is one obvious way in which being on HBO or Netflix would allay many concerns, as either venue would mean sufficient investment), and the quality of the sets and channeling (wherein HBO again would obviously be the most re-assuring in terms of financing). That and I worry about drastic curtailing of storylines and the excising/condensing characters - i.e. do they decide to combine Min, Elaine, and Aviendha into one character.

Still, at least the first book carries the benefit of a relatively small number of characters, and a comparatively simplistic way in which channeling would need to be shown. So, if successful, they would not need to really expand the budget until season two to deal with the expanded complexities of tGH compared to tEotW. I still think that it will be difficult to convince established actors and actresses to commit to a project that if successful should last a decade and drastically limit other options in their career.

Those problems could all be adequately solved by using animation and voice actors instead. I'd be much more enthusiastic if the reveal was that the partner was say Disney, Ghibli, or KyoAni.

Davian93
04-22-2017, 01:41 PM
They would have to and should definitely drastically reduce the number of secondary and tertiary characters and plot lines. Definitely get rid of things like the Black Ajah search and other things like that. Treat it like a 6-7 book series rather than the 14 books. The first 5-6 books won't be so bad to streamline but after that, it snowballs rather quickly.

fionwe1987
04-22-2017, 02:00 PM
Among secondary plots to cut, I think the Black Ajah hunt has a lot more promise than something like the Shaido. I don't think they should cut the Shaido entirely, but Faile being kidnapped and rescued should be one season-long, at most. Similarly, I would curb Elayne's struggle for the throne a lot more.

As for Min, Elayne and Aviendha being combined into one... I don't want that. But I'm also unsure how the whole "three women fall for one guy" thing will play out on screen.

Kimon
04-22-2017, 02:36 PM
Among secondary plots to cut, I think the Black Ajah hunt has a lot more promise than something like the Shaido. I don't think they should cut the Shaido entirely, but Faile being kidnapped and rescued should be one season-long, at most. Similarly, I would curb Elayne's struggle for the throne a lot more.

As for Min, Elayne and Aviendha being combined into one... I don't want that. But I'm also unsure how the whole "three women fall for one guy" thing will play out on screen.

They have to do the BA Hunt, as without it it would be nigh impossible to set up the climactic reunion of all the threadlines in Falme at the denouement of tGH. I would condense the number of Black sisters involved, but Liandrin's role is quite necessary in those early books, as is Verin, Sheriam, and Alviarin.

As for the girls, I would not be at all surprised if they combined Min and Elayne, which is unfortunate, as Min is one of my two favorite female characters (along with Moiraine) in WoT. And, much like with Arianne Martell, one of the best female characters in aSoIaF, I could easily see Min getting the axe. Here's hoping that this kid writer, like me, loves Min and hates Egwene - I'd happily have them combine Egwene and Nynaeve into just Nynaeve - though they should perhaps call the character Egwene, so that the pairing is Egwene (Gwenevere) with Lan (Lancelot), and then keep Min and Elayne as separate characters. Alongside that, I'd make Elayne the Daughter of the Nine Moons (and hence with Tuon cut) and have her end up with Mat instead of Rand, and have Aviendha end up with Perrin, have there be no Faile, and have the Shaido all be wiped out at the Battle of Cairhien.

fionwe1987
04-22-2017, 02:52 PM
I'm with you on the Black Ajah, but dropping Egwene to keep Min is insane.

The rest of what you're proposing just completely alters the story. Needlessly too.

Davian93
04-22-2017, 02:59 PM
They have to do the BA Hunt, as without it it would be nigh impossible to set up the climactic reunion of all the threadlines in Falme at the denouement of tGH. I would condense the number of Black sisters involved, but Liandrin's role is quite necessary in those early books, as is Verin, Sheriam, and Alviarin.

As for the girls, I would not be at all surprised if they combined Min and Elayne, which is unfortunate, as Min is one of my two favorite female characters (along with Moiraine) in WoT. And, much like with Arianne Martell, one of the best female characters in aSoIaF, I could easily see Min getting the axe. Here's hoping that this kid writer, like me, loves Min and hates Egwene - I'd happily have them combine Egwene and Nynaeve into just Nynaeve - though they should perhaps call the character Egwene, so that the pairing is Egwene (Gwenevere) with Lan (Lancelot), and then keep Min and Elayne as separate characters. Alongside that, I'd make Elayne the Daughter of the Nine Moons (and hence with Tuon cut) and have her end up with Mat instead of Rand, and have Aviendha end up with Perrin, have there be no Faile, and have the Shaido all be wiped out at the Battle of Cairhien.

You can keep the BA in the story but you don't need the multi-book BA hunt in the tower/rebel camp that dragged on and on and on.

With Elayne's struggle, that could be parts of 1-2 episodes at most rather than a couple seasons of dragging on and on.

Same with Faile's kidnapping and/or the Shaido in general. Maybe mention the Shaido in the background but focusing any time on it along with the Perrin/Faile fiasco that was brutal to read let alone watch it for a full season.

I don't know that the 3 women falling for 1 man would play out well at all. Its pretty creepy/weird when you really think about it...and one of the weaker parts of the story IMHO.

Kimon
04-22-2017, 03:13 PM
I'm with you on the Black Ajah, but dropping Egwene to keep Min is insane.

The rest of what you're proposing just completely alters the story. Needlessly too.

You only say that because you are an Egwene-fanboy.

All of those changes would streamline the story without changing it in any significant way. It would simplify and solve the problem of Rand's polygamy, and would solve all the problems with Egwene - i.e. being older, and a former Wisdom, she would be less unfit for being the Amyrlin, she would be less of a bitch to her friends (since she would be more Nynaeve and less Egwene personality-wise) and, as she would end up with Lan instead of Gawyn, Gawyn, another obnoxious and pointless character, could be excised. It would allow Egwene to become the noble character that she should have been - Nynaeve. Either that or I'd make Egwene go Black Ajah, becoming the new Chosen (instead of Taim, who obviously would be in this iteration, as he should have been in the books, just a pseudonym for Demandred) out of jealousy for Rand stealing all of her glory.

fionwe1987
04-22-2017, 03:53 PM
You only say that because you are an Egwene-fanboy.
And you say the opposite because you're an Egwene hater. You don't have to like Egwene to know she's a major character in the story, much more so than Min is.


All of those changes would streamline the story without changing it in any significant way.
:rolleyes:

It would simplify and solve the problem of Rand's polygamy, and would solve all the problems with Egwene - i.e. being older, and a former Wisdom, she would be less unfit for being the Amyrlin, she would be less of a bitch to her friends (since she would be more Nynaeve and less Egwene personality-wise) and, as she would end up with Lan instead of Gawyn, Gawyn, another obnoxious and pointless character, could be excised. It would allow Egwene to become the noble character that she should have been - Nynaeve. Either that or I'd make Egwene go Black Ajah, becoming the new Chosen (instead of Taim, who obviously would be in this iteration, as he should have been in the books, just a pseudonym for Demandred) out of jealousy for Rand stealing all of her glory.
Oh wow, thank heavens your personal bias isn't showing or anything...

fionwe1987
04-22-2017, 03:56 PM
You can keep the BA in the story but you don't need the multi-book BA hunt in the tower/rebel camp that dragged on and on and on.

With Elayne's struggle, that could be parts of 1-2 episodes at most rather than a couple seasons of dragging on and on.

Same with Faile's kidnapping and/or the Shaido in general. Maybe mention the Shaido in the background but focusing any time on it along with the Perrin/Faile fiasco that was brutal to read let alone watch it for a full season.

I don't know that the 3 women falling for 1 man would play out well at all. Its pretty creepy/weird when you really think about it...and one of the weaker parts of the story IMHO.

I agree that the Black Ajah hunt shouldn't drag... but in the books, it really doesn't. It is a chapter here, a chapter there. It is quite an economic arc, actually. And you want the hunt for them to be multi-season because it emphasizes the threat they could be, and makes you question the Aes Sedai around our major characters.

I doubt they'll need to spend all that much screen time to have the BA hunt shown. Maybe reduce the number of sisters involved, but the basic story can stay the same, leading up to Verin's reveal.

Khoram
04-22-2017, 04:00 PM
I am always excited to hear any news about the new TV series, but I was extremely disappointed to find out Red Eagle was still involved with it. And I don't know how to feel about Sony being involved.

I can't even say that I'm cautiously optimistic, like Dav. I just don't know how to feel.

Davian93
04-22-2017, 04:02 PM
I agree that the Black Ajah hunt shouldn't drag... but in the books, it really doesn't. It is a chapter here, a chapter there. It is quite an economic arc, actually. And you want the hunt for them to be multi-season because it emphasizes the threat they could be, and makes you question the Aes Sedai around our major characters.

I doubt they'll need to spend all that much screen time to have the BA hunt shown. Maybe reduce the number of sisters involved, but the basic story can stay the same, leading up to Verin's reveal.

Yeah, maybe make it more of an underlying threat from day 1...and condense it a bit instead of chapter after chapter of AS politicking. Good point.

It definitely needs some streamlining which we can all agree.

fionwe1987
04-22-2017, 04:15 PM
Yeah, maybe make it more of an underlying threat from day 1...and condense it a bit instead of chapter after chapter of AS politicking. Good point.

It definitely needs some streamlining which we can all agree.

Yes. Frankly, I wouldn't hesitate to make characters like Alviarin more significant early on. Tower politics can play well on screen, and the BA's scheming to remove Siuan, divide the Tower, and keep it too split to make an impact on the Last Battle can be an interesting story that makes the Shadow look less idiotic. Aes Sedai scheming a bickering also looks less idiotic when you're aware that a lot of it is precipitated by Black sisters who want dysfunction.

In my recent re-reads, I was looking at how confirmed Blacks were involved in what seemed like annoying Aes Sedai politics and it is kind of insane how effectively they placed themselves in almost every Aes Sedai power center in a position of authority. Only Cadsuane's group escaped this.

So amping that up can help a lot. Show us some of the players, make us doubt everybody, and add a very good actress to play Verin, and this can be a good story arc that spans most of the series, and its conclusion can be even more explosive in impact than it was in the books.

I'd say if they introduce Saerin, Alviarin, Pevara and Sheriam early enough and build on them... they'd have a good arc to follow, with the other players either merged or kept mostly in the background.

ShadowbaneX
04-22-2017, 05:56 PM
I've been thinking about it, and the only viable option I can come up with is for them to hire every member of Theoryland as creative consultants and move us all into a mansion in Hollywood or wherever for the next 10 years. And an annual salary of $200,000. And cameo appearances as innkeepers and servants. But I don't see any other way they can do this right.

It'd be like Survivor...only with more murder.

ShadowbaneX
04-22-2017, 07:21 PM
I am always excited to hear any news about the new TV series, but I was extremely disappointed to find out Red Eagle was still involved with it. And I don't know how to feel about Sony being involved.

I can't even say that I'm cautiously optimistic, like Dav. I just don't know how to feel.

Credit, is just that, credit. T
Likely terms if the settlement. They get their name attached to the project and possibly little else. There's nothing that guarantees at this point that they have any say with the series.

fionwe1987
04-22-2017, 10:25 PM
Something I posted over at Westeros in response to a suggestion that they just do 7 seasons covering 2 books per season:

I think something in the middle is more appropriate. Ie, some seasons have more than 2 books, others less, and then get to a total of 7, at worse 8, seasons. For instance, I'd say 1 and part of 2 make for a good Season 1. End on Egwene captured, Nynaeve and Elayne hiding from the Seanchan, and Rand and co. stuck in the Portal worlds.

Then wrap the Seanchan story, and jump to Dragon Reborn and finish with that. I feel Shadow Rising is too different in tone to Dragon Reborn for them to fit into one season. The "Dark One" dead and Rand acknowledging he's the DR makes for too good a season finale, and too poor a mid-season stop, too.

Then Shadow Rising can make a great Season 3. You end with the Two Rivers saved, Rand gaining leadership of the Aiel, Nynaeve battling Moghedien, and Elaida taking over the Tower. I'd say something like Rand learning the history of the Aiel in Rhuidean can be an episode in itself. I might make sense for Rand to reach the outskirts of Cairhein by the end of the season, though, or maybe skip that part entirely.

Season 4, I think, would make sense as book 5 and the starting third of book 6, which is pretty slow and can be dispensed with in an episode or so as a kind of slower finale coming from the high of the battle at the docks, and Caemlyn taken by Rand.

This is where I would start switching things up a bit. In the grand scheme of things, I think things like the takeover of Illian make more sense if they come before Rand is kidnapped, as that marks a very dramatic turning point in the series, and shouldn't be buried mid-season.

Post taking Caemlyn, I'd have Rand start the push for Sammael and Illian right away, while also dealing with the two embassies, in Season 5. This spices up the slower lead up to his kidnapping, and gives Egwene more to do than twiddle her thumbs till she's asked to be Amyrlin. I'd fold in Mat and have Perrin come from the Two Rivers too, and basically have the focus of this season be Sammael, which works since even the Aes Sedai in Salidar were aware of him and worried about him. And rather than have Elayne and Nynaeve find Moghedien right away, have them take time to track her in Salidar, which gives them something to do this season. You have a mid-season big blowup with Sammael being killed in Shadar Logoth, and Egwene taking her penance with the Aiel and going to Salidar to be raised Amyrlin.

At this point, Rand feels stretched thin and wants Elayne in Caemlyn, so he sends Mat and the Band after Egwene to get Elayne. We're kind of where book 6 was at with Rand and Perrin in Cairhein. At this point, I'd have Rand kidnapped, and I'd accelerate Egwene's season 7 storyline of taking control of the Aes Sedai, so Season 5 ends with Dumai's Wells and the first Aes Sedai swearing to Rand, matched with the Aes Sedai who swear to Egwene, and Nynaeve and Elayne using the Bowl of the Winds.

Season 6 then covers most of books 8, 9, 10 and most of 11. I'd have Perrin with Rand as he attacks the Seanchan, and quickly get to the point where Rand's insanity has him nearly destroy his own army along with the Seanchan. This precipitates Rand running away to try cleanse Saidin, leaving Perrin with most of his army which Perrin has to slowly march northward to Andor, neatly excising the Shaido, and giving Perrin good reason to be where he's supposed to be for book 13's events.

Egwene meanwhile dupes the Aes Sedai into declaring war on Elaida and Travels her entire army to Tar Valon, while Elayne's Andor storyline gets a radical acceleration, sans any bathing.

Mat kidnaps Tuon, and most of their adventuring till the end of book 11 can be covered here.

I'd end Season 6 on Rand's encounter with Semirhage, Egwene captured, Mat parting from Tuon, and Elayne winning the throne of Andor.

Season 7 can be Books 12-13. None of the added silliness of Rand meeting Egwene and giving her a one month ultimatum would be needed. Just have Rand and Egwene be the focus of the story, with Perrin, Elayne and Mat getting their more important events added to make this a pretty great season leading up to...

A shorter Season 8 which is just the Last Battle.

Thoughts?

ETA: This is a very rough sketch of an outline, and obviously it focuses only on the main characters. I'm sure a 100 different things can go wrong with Sammael's fall coming before Dumai's wells, but I'd love to see if that idea is feasible.

GonzoTheGreat
04-23-2017, 03:06 AM
... and have the Shaido all be wiped out at the Battle of Cairhien.
Would the AS who kidnap Rand then be besieged by irate badgers at Dumai's Wells?

Kimon
04-23-2017, 08:40 AM
Would the AS who kidnap Rand then be besieged by irate badgers at Dumai's Wells?

The only combatants at the Wells that are really needed are the Aes Sedai and the Asha'man, but removing the Shaido and Perrin's force does obviously negatively curtail the scale of the battle, not to mention the impact on the just how much more impressive the even barely trained Asha'man are than the Aes Sedai, thus serving as foreshadowing of the Seanchan sortie on Tar Valon. So better to keep the Shaido around at least until the Wells.

That still leaves the problem of what to do with Perrin afterwards, but that is largely an issue of how important one considers Faile's kidnapping to be, or, for that matter, how important the Prophet. I'd excise both the kidnapping (if not Faile entirely), and the Prophet. The only really important link here was that it was a way to bring Perrin into contact with the Seanchan, but the infancy of that alliance could just as well be left only to Mat (along with Rand's failed early efforts - i.e. his meeting with Semirhage). Perhaps better to simply have Rand send Perrin to reconnoiter and then join the rebels in Salidar.

Regardless, if this ever actually is made, significant alterations will need to be made for the sake of concision. Whatever choices they make will almost certainly annoy many of us - or perhaps please some, and annoy others.

Moreover, any major changes will create problems. For instance, if attempting to solve the unpleasantness of Rand's polygamy by just having him marry Min, and then have Mat end up with Elayne, how then do you bind the Seanchan to the alliance without Mat's marriage to Tuon? Do you combine Min and Elayne into one character? As the channeler princess? The seer? As a channeling princess with foretelling? Certainly it is Min's ability that is the more important. Is Aviendha needed to bind the Aiel to Rand, and vice versa, or can her character be completely eliminated? Do you keep all the Forsaken, or do you drop a few of them? A few of them are absolutely essential - Ishamael, Asmodean, Sammael, Lanfear, Mesaana, Aginor (though mostly just as Osan'gar), and Rahvin. But if Taim isn't Demandred, is Demandred really necessary? Are Semirhage and Graendal? Balthamel (though, admittedly as Aran'gar, he/she is somewhat important)? Be'lal? I wouldn't be at all surprised if a few of them get the axe.

Great Lord of the Dark
04-23-2017, 10:08 AM
I think the characters are mostly essential, and can't be reduced in number.

However, Books 2 and 3 involve much contrived travel and could be combined. Falme plotline seems to have been designed to let Seanchan arrive but not disrupt any major plot locations.
I'd have the Seanchan land in Tear first, and place Falme as a peninsula on the coast of Tear. Combine the two times the girls left the Tower into one. The city of Tear is taken by Seanchan, but the stone stands for a few days. Mat and Perrin and Egwene each collect some Aiel on the way. Rand and friends break in, the horn is blown, the Seanchan are repulsed before they can take the Stone. Almost every plotline can be brought to the same point in less time.

If needed to appease fans, have the Seanchan continent curl south of Tear, like a big crescent instead of just being to the west. Inconsequential change to map simplifies complex travel arrangements.

GonzoTheGreat
04-23-2017, 10:19 AM
If needed to appease fans, have the Seanchan continent curl south of Tear, like a big crescent instead of just being to the west. Inconsequential change to map simplifies complex travel arrangements.
But that would remove the Land of the Madmen!?! That'd be as bad as leaving Bombadil out of LotR!!!

fionwe1987
04-23-2017, 11:54 AM
Would the AS who kidnap Rand then be besieged by irate badgers at Dumai's Wells?

Good point. So have them destroyed at Dumai's Wells, then. Certainly, an entire Aiel Clan being first held at bay by the Aes Sedai then destroyed by the Asha'man give scope to the power of channeling.

By the way, I'm liking the idea of combining Tear and Falme. The Seanchan attack Tear, Egwene is captured and kept as a damane there, Rand goes to rescue her, in the process breaks into the Stone of Tear (which manages to hold against the Seanchan invasion, maybe because Be'lal is there), the Horn is blown, Rand fights Ishamael in the skies with Callandor, Egwene is rescued, and Tear comes under Rand's control.

The idea is rather neat. In both Great Hunt and Dragon Reborn, you have Rand running away from his identity (as a channeler, then as the Dragon Reborn, but both can be combined). You have the girls leaving the Tower to help Rand, and the same Black Ajah crowd manipulating events to draw Rand into a trap. One or more of the girls get captured, and get rescued. Combining the storming of the Stone of Tear and the Seanchan being pushed back would make for a really explosive climax, while preserving a lot of the story, and removing many repetitive elements in books 2 and 3.

Davian93
04-23-2017, 06:43 PM
Per Dragonmount, Red Eagle has nothing at all to do with the actual production...so that's a good sign at least.

GonzoTheGreat
04-24-2017, 03:28 AM
Of course, having the Seanchan besiege Be'lal would somewhat interfere with the Aiel sneaking into the Stone unobserved. Not to mention that it would make it a lot harder for Elaida and her cronies* to doubt the existence of the Seanchan later on, when they've shown themselves in such a blatantly obvious way.

* Elaida would probably manage it; she's very good at not believing what she doesn't want to believe. Other AS don't have that Talent, though, and their training may not suffice on its own here.

fionwe1987
04-24-2017, 09:38 AM
Of course, having the Seanchan besiege Be'lal would somewhat interfere with the Aiel sneaking into the Stone unobserved.
The Seanchan would have better patrols, I suppose, but you just make the Aiel better at sneaking. This is a pretty minor issue.

Not to mention that it would make it a lot harder for Elaida and her cronies* to doubt the existence of the Seanchan later on, when they've shown themselves in such a blatantly obvious way.
Hardly. Throw in the Forsaken in the Stone, the Dragon Reborn appearing in the air, Callandor, etc. and you have a lot of fantastical stories emerging from this place. It is very easy then to ignore the stuff you don't want to believe.

Davian93
04-24-2017, 10:50 AM
It is very easy then to ignore the stuff you don't want to believe.

For reference, see the current GOP with anything related to science...

fionwe1987
04-24-2017, 11:33 AM
For reference, see the current GOP with anything related to science...

Everytime I see someone say the Aes Sedai were incredibly ornery, ignorant, stupid, self-serving, moronic... I feel the need to point to our current ogvernment and show people that real life can be much, much, worse. Elaida is a model of competence in comparison.

Ozymandias
04-25-2017, 11:43 AM
I don't think cutting any of the "main" characters (Two Rivers crowd plus Elayne/Min/Aviendha) would serve the show well. Not all of them need a ton of time, and Rand doesn't spend much time with any of them (in terms of multiple books) except Min. You don't even have to have them be love interests, necessarily, though I don't see why not. If Game of Thrones can introduce incestuous, child-murdering siblings who are main characters in the first season, no reason polyamory can't work.

The way to make this work is to cut or truncate every single non-main character related storyline. Axe the Shaido post-Cairhien. Get rid of Ebou Dar and the Bowl of the Winds - have Elayne transition straight from the rebels to the Succession. Sadly, cut out Morgase/Tallanvor. Cut Galad. Keep Gawyn but cut his storyline, and reduce it to the Elayne-or-Egwene internal struggle between Prince and Warder. Cut all of Mat's carnival shenanigans. Cut all of Perrin from the latter half of the series.

The good news is that books 1-4 are very readily adaptable to TV. The characters stay together, or in a few bunches. The books end with identifiable victories and challenges for Team Light, and ultimate episodes can set up plotlines and/or cliffhangers for the next season (Horn gets stole in last episode of Season 1, Lanfear arrives and Rand gets identity issues in last episode of Season 2, Rand heads to the Waste for Season 3, etc).

I think the key to the whole thing is to compress a bunch of the tertiary characters into only a few. All the Aiel Wise Ones get distilled into Amys. All the Aes Sedai around Rand (sans Moiraine) become Cadsuane. Have some extras, to be sure, so we get a sense of scale of the organizations, but we don't need so much. Rebel Aes Sedai become Sheriam, Romanda, Lelaine. Etc. You can cut MASSIVE parts of the books out without losing anything.

Use Game of Thrones as the template for the storytelling. We meet an easy two dozen characters of major importance within the first two episodes (Starks minus Rickon, Lannisters, Robert & Joffrey, the Hound, Daenerys/Jorah... that's 15 right there, without Tommon/Myrcela/Theon/Drogo/Viserys etc), and you don't need more than half that number in WoT. You've got the boys, Egwene/Nynaeve, Lan and Moiraine, Thom, Tam, and Fain. That's ten. You don't meet another even remotely important character until Min.

Davian93
04-25-2017, 01:37 PM
Use Game of Thrones as the template for the storytelling. We meet an easy two dozen characters of major importance within the first two episodes (Starks minus Rickon, Lannisters, Robert & Joffrey, the Hound, Daenerys/Jorah... that's 15 right there, without Tommon/Myrcela/Theon/Drogo/Viserys etc), and you don't need more than half that number in WoT. You've got the boys, Egwene/Nynaeve, Lan and Moiraine, Thom, Tam, and Fain. That's ten. You don't meet another even remotely important character until Min.

~coughs~

Bela, you forgot Bela

~coughs again~

connabard
04-25-2017, 03:54 PM
I'd actually personally like to keep Galad in and his turn to the Whitecloaks but it is true I'm not sure if you'd even include the Whitecloaks into the series, and if not, Galad shouldn't even exist

fionwe1987
04-25-2017, 03:57 PM
I'd actually personally like to keep Galad in and his turn to the Whitecloaks but it is true I'm not sure if you'd even include the Whitecloaks into the series, and if not, Galad shouldn't even exist

The Whitecloaks serve a very similar purpose as the Seanchan, thematically. I don't think they bring anything unique to the series.

Davian93
04-25-2017, 04:02 PM
The Whitecloaks serve a very similar purpose as the Seanchan, thematically. I don't think they bring anything unique to the series.

Yes they do, they're key to Making Randland Great Again...

Great Lord of the Dark
04-25-2017, 05:56 PM
I don't think cutting any of the "main" characters (Two Rivers crowd plus Elayne/Min/Aviendha) would serve the show well. Not all of them need a ton of time, and Rand doesn't spend much time with any of them (in terms of multiple books) except Min. You don't even have to have them be love interests, necessarily, though I don't see why not. If Game of Thrones can introduce incestuous, child-murdering siblings who are main characters in the first season, no reason polyamory can't work.

The way to make this work is to cut or truncate every single non-main character related storyline. Axe the Shaido post-Cairhien. Get rid of Ebou Dar and the Bowl of the Winds - have Elayne transition straight from the rebels to the Succession. Sadly, cut out Morgase/Tallanvor. Cut Galad. Keep Gawyn but cut his storyline, and reduce it to the Elayne-or-Egwene internal struggle between Prince and Warder. Cut all of Mat's carnival shenanigans. Cut all of Perrin from the latter half of the series.

The good news is that books 1-4 are very readily adaptable to TV. The characters stay together, or in a few bunches. The books end with identifiable victories and challenges for Team Light, and ultimate episodes can set up plotlines and/or cliffhangers for the next season (Horn gets stole in last episode of Season 1, Lanfear arrives and Rand gets identity issues in last episode of Season 2, Rand heads to the Waste for Season 3, etc).

I think the key to the whole thing is to compress a bunch of the tertiary characters into only a few. All the Aiel Wise Ones get distilled into Amys. All the Aes Sedai around Rand (sans Moiraine) become Cadsuane. Have some extras, to be sure, so we get a sense of scale of the organizations, but we don't need so much. Rebel Aes Sedai become Sheriam, Romanda, Lelaine. Etc. You can cut MASSIVE parts of the books out without losing anything.

Use Game of Thrones as the template for the storytelling. We meet an easy two dozen characters of major importance within the first two episodes (Starks minus Rickon, Lannisters, Robert & Joffrey, the Hound, Daenerys/Jorah... that's 15 right there, without Tommon/Myrcela/Theon/Drogo/Viserys etc), and you don't need more than half that number in WoT. You've got the boys, Egwene/Nynaeve, Lan and Moiraine, Thom, Tam, and Fain. That's ten. You don't meet another even remotely important character until Min.

I see the point and need to simplify, but it would bring some tough decisions later. Notably, how do you keep Rand shielded with 13 Aes Sedai if you only ever bothered to show 10 of them? Would you change the size of a circle? If you did then you have enough channelers in your mains that you eliminate the need to collaborate with so many other different cultures, which is a key element of the story.

I think the better approach is to keep in most tertiary characters, and reduce them to 1-2 speaking lines. No need for their life story. But you can't have quarreling Ajahs without at least 1, preferably 3 representatives of each. Then you have to make 1 in 5 of them a Black Ajah or they are no threat. So you need numbers. Less screen time sure, reduced roles, but they need to be there.

Tertiary characters add to the flavour of what Rand must face. He can't just beat evil, there are shades of evil, and Rand must learn that the world is a horribly complex place if he is to lose hope and go dark. I don't mind reducing the length of plots from middle books, but the reason they are there is that the characters are all realizing that you can't do one thing without affecting all the other things, sometimes in bad ways. There are no simple answers. The show can reduce complexity, but it still must appear complex and impossible, leading to those key decision points atop Dragonmount and choosing an axe.

GonzoTheGreat
04-26-2017, 03:35 AM
I think the better approach is to keep in most tertiary characters, and reduce them to 1-2 speaking lines.
"Others go away. Narg stay. Narg smart."

connabard
04-26-2017, 12:08 PM
Honestly if the TV version doesn't have Bela as the DO then I'm not sure what the point of even adapting it is.

Davian93
04-26-2017, 12:20 PM
Honestly if the TV version doesn't have Bela as the DO then I'm not sure what the point of even adapting it is.

Agreed.

fionwe1987
04-26-2017, 02:12 PM
Honestly if the TV version doesn't have Bela as the DO then I'm not sure what the point of even adapting it is.

As the DO? Such blasphemy! She is the CREATOR!!!!

Daekyras
04-28-2017, 07:19 AM
Anyone else find themselves fielding a lot of Wot questions since this news dropped? on facebook and in real life etc.

I have but im happy to do so.

But if I have one more person shit on the series for being "misogynistic" or that its "all hair braids and sniffing" and then admit they havent read it and that they think GoT is "a better, tighter written series with proper gender politics" I may get violent.

GonzoTheGreat
04-28-2017, 07:28 AM
Fold your arms, sniff, and pull your (or someone's, at least) hair. That'll convince them, I am sure.

Daekyras
04-28-2017, 07:30 AM
Fold your arms, sniff, and pull your (or someone's, at least) hair. That'll convince them, I am sure.

oh no, that will make it much worse.

connabard
04-28-2017, 09:19 AM
Anyone else find themselves fielding a lot of Wot questions since this news dropped? on facebook and in real life etc.

I have but im happy to do so.

But if I have one more person shit on the series for being "misogynistic" or that its "all hair braids and sniffing" and then admit they havent read it and that they think GoT is "a better, tighter written series with proper gender politics" I may get violent.

Both series' share a lot of fault with regards to misogyny in their work, but it really does bother me when people prop up GRRM like he's the messiah of writing and egalitarianism

sorry grrm I don't need to see multiple people raped to understand the significance that rape has.

fionwe1987
04-28-2017, 10:04 AM
Definitely been fielding a lot more questions. And request for my copies of the books, which are disappearing from my shelf quite quickly now!

As for the misogyny thing... my own take on it has altered over the years. While I don't think GRRM is any better, I'm more and more aware that RJ's views on gender politics are dated, and in some cases quite bizarre. For all that, the series has a lot of women with agency, and back when I first read it, was an eye opener for me that helped lead me to feminism, so I still deeply appreciate it.

connabard
04-28-2017, 10:17 AM
Definitely been fielding a lot more questions. And request for my copies of the books, which are disappearing from my shelf quite quickly now!

As for the misogyny thing... my own take on it has altered over the years. While I don't think GRRM is any better, I'm more and more aware that RJ's views on gender politics are dated, and in some cases quite bizarre. For all that, the series has a lot of women with agency, and back when I first read it, was an eye opener for me that helped lead me to feminism, so I still deeply appreciate it.

pretty much Nynaeve and Moiraine helped with that a lot specifically for me as a 90's kid growing up with it

fionwe1987
04-28-2017, 10:23 AM
pretty much Nynaeve and Moiraine helped with that a lot specifically for me as a 90's kid growing up with it

Egwene too, for me. I loved that she is portrayed as an ambitious woman, and in story, no judgment is attached to it. Sure, Rand goes off on the deep end on it, but that is somewhat understandable, and it is never shown as him being right.

For me, this was offset by the utterly absurd reaction her ambition got from the readers. I'm pretty sure going into forums and seeing how negatively everyone reacted to it was one of the big pushes for me towards realizing the extent of misogyny in our world.

Davian93
04-28-2017, 10:25 AM
Egwene too, for me. I loved that she is portrayed as an ambitious woman, and in story, no judgment is attached to it. Sure, Rand goes off on the deep end on it, but that is somewhat understandable, and it is never shown as him being right.

For me, this was offset by the utterly absurd reaction her ambition got from the readers. I'm pretty sure going into forums and seeing how negatively everyone reacted to it was one of the big pushes for me towards realizing the extent of misogyny in our world.

As an Egwene disliker...My issue with Egwene is more with how BS started writing her (the whole Egwene the girl and Egwene the amyrlin was brutal) along with her mistakes in judgment made while under Aran'gar's compulsion. I think those are pretty fair criticisms that have nothing to do with misogyny.

connabard
04-28-2017, 10:30 AM
Egwene too, for me. I loved that she is portrayed as an ambitious woman, and in story, no judgment is attached to it. Sure, Rand goes off on the deep end on it, but that is somewhat understandable, and it is never shown as him being right.

For me, this was offset by the utterly absurd reaction her ambition got from the readers. I'm pretty sure going into forums and seeing how negatively everyone reacted to it was one of the big pushes for me towards realizing the extent of misogyny in our world.

im more ambivalent about egwene. i love seeing protags of stories given 'unconventional' or even 'negative' traits. sometimes egwene did dumb things. she was actively ambitious. she was cocky at times, bordering on arrogant. and while that can be tough to read at times, i did truly appreciate having a protag with a myriad of qualities (which I think RJ just generally did a good job with for the majority of characters)

connabard
04-28-2017, 10:31 AM
As an Egwene disliker...My issue with Egwene is more with how BS started writing her (the whole Egwene the girl and Egwene the amyrlin was brutal) along with her mistakes in judgment made while under Aran'gar's compulsion. I think those are pretty fair criticisms that have nothing to do with misogyny.

mostly the same page. RJ wrote her (and Mat (and.... everyone)) with a lot more subtlety which makes it a lot easier to stomach when a character has either negative traits or just ones you don't personally like.

fionwe1987
04-28-2017, 10:32 AM
As an Egwene disliker...My issue with Egwene is more with how BS started writing her (the whole Egwene the girl and Egwene the amyrlin was brutal) along with her mistakes in judgment made while under Aran'gar's compulsion. I think those are pretty fair criticisms that have nothing to do with misogyny.

I wasn't pointing at specific people. :)

But I certainly disliked BS's writing of her. That was just awful. RJ did that just a little bit, and it worked. He used it at those moments where Egwene had to force herself to do something her instincts rebelled with. BS made it a feature of damn near every thought of hers and it was just awful. He didn't get what RJ was going for at all.

I don't think there's a shred of evidence Aran'gar compelled her.

And of course she had negatives. I think her biggest was how her fullest commitment to any job she was given sometimes blinded her to other things, especially rules for her own safety. In typical RJ fashion, that was also a huge benefit to her. The question was about the drawing of lines, and by KoD, I felt RJ had her in place to have a very strong moral core to back up her fierce zeal to succeed. By ToM this theme was dead and gone, for some reason...

Rand al'Fain
04-28-2017, 10:14 PM
Yeah, liking this news!
True, it won't be HBO backing the series, giving it the same quality as GoT. But, has it been confirmed as animated or live-action? If done right, either could be feasible.

And this, combined with the announcements of not only Young Justice Season 3 being in the works, but also a Titans live-action version now confirmed to be in the works, I have a lot to look forward to in tv shows.

Ozymandias
05-01-2017, 03:56 PM
I see the point and need to simplify, but it would bring some tough decisions later. Notably, how do you keep Rand shielded with 13 Aes Sedai if you only ever bothered to show 10 of them? Would you change the size of a circle? If you did then you have enough channelers in your mains that you eliminate the need to collaborate with so many other different cultures, which is a key element of the story.

I think the better approach is to keep in most tertiary characters, and reduce them to 1-2 speaking lines. No need for their life story. But you can't have quarreling Ajahs without at least 1, preferably 3 representatives of each. Then you have to make 1 in 5 of them a Black Ajah or they are no threat. So you need numbers. Less screen time sure, reduced roles, but they need to be there.

Tertiary characters add to the flavour of what Rand must face. He can't just beat evil, there are shades of evil, and Rand must learn that the world is a horribly complex place if he is to lose hope and go dark. I don't mind reducing the length of plots from middle books, but the reason they are there is that the characters are all realizing that you can't do one thing without affecting all the other things, sometimes in bad ways. There are no simple answers. The show can reduce complexity, but it still must appear complex and impossible, leading to those key decision points atop Dragonmount and choosing an axe.

Ah, I wasn't clear.

I'm not saying literally reduce the White Tower to a couple dozen characters. I'm saying that one of the many great things about WoT is the sheer scale of named characters who get multiple lines throughout the books. You can have a few representatives of each Ajah arguing for a couple scenes in a couple episodes, just so we get a flavor for what each Ajah stands for and how they relate to plot, and then never revisit them except as color-appropriate-background characters. You could do Dumai's Well's with 13 Aes Sedai, with only Galina getting a speaking role. Hell, you could have it be Alviarhin, and have her escape back to the Tower.

Obviously, have as many extras as you want, and in most cases they'll be obvious from costuming - Aes Sedai are women with colored shawls, Aiel in cadin'sor, Asha'man in black, etc. But drastically cut down on names and speaking roles. I think it's easy to overlook just how many characters get repeat speaking parts. Do Nynaeve and Elayne really need to hunt 13 (or 11) Black Ajah members? That could just as easily be 3. Or have it be 11 in one quick scene but only ever show Liandrin again, as she's the only one who really matters consistently.

We just don't need Amys AND Bair AND Melaine AND Sorilea to get the point across that the Wise Ones are a bunch of no-nonsense badasses who get shit done and have their own agenda. We don't need Gueyam and Maraconne and Weiramon and Torean to know that the Tairen nobles are grasping, incompetent mooks. I don't need 7 Black Ajah hunters, or half a dozen Andoran nobles pandering to Rahvin. We can eliminate some of the members of the Band.

All I was trying to say is that in just about every possible plotline over the course of what, 14 books? there are four or five characters where, visually, one or two will do. Just making those easy choices can immediately reduce your "cast" from hundreds to maybe several dozen.

Great Lord of the Dark
05-02-2017, 05:56 PM
Ah. I was not understanding clear.

An alternative is keep them all, but kill some of them off quicker. Might satisfy those bloodthirsty monsters who complain not enough characters die. A Black Ajah hunt is simpler when you've accounted for 8 of 13 already, and makes the last five more interesting.

GonzoTheGreat
05-03-2017, 03:05 AM
Of course, killing off Egwene a bit earlier might satisfy some too. :D

Davian93
05-03-2017, 07:38 AM
Of course, killing off Egwene a bit earlier might satisfy some too. :D

"I'm really sorry Egwene died on Winternight Rand but you have to leave the Two Rivers with me and come to Tar Valon..."

Would that work?

GonzoTheGreat
05-03-2017, 07:53 AM
"I'm really sorry Egwene died on Winternight Rand but you have to leave the Two Rivers with me and come to Tar Valon..."

Would that work?
Oh, that's a tricky one. While it would undoubtedly come as a relief to anyone who had actually read the books, it is possible, even likely, that not all viewers would have picked up why this would be a good thing. So it would depend on how many new people are exposed to WoT through the television series.

Maybe having her drown in bath in Baerlon might be an acceptable solution.

Khoram
05-03-2017, 11:02 AM
"I'm really sorry Egwene died on Winternight Rand but you have to leave the Two Rivers with me and come to Tar Valon..."

Would that work?

That would eliminate the need for Bela, though. :/

GonzoTheGreat
05-03-2017, 11:32 AM
Maybe Bela could learn to channel and become Amyrlin. Wouldn't do to have the Seanchan capture her, though, so that's another problem already.

Davian93
05-03-2017, 12:03 PM
That would eliminate the need for Bela, though. :/

"Also, I can't believe the Trolloc spear that killed Egwene passed right through her into Master Thane's prized stallion Cloud like that...Bela is the only horse we have left in the stable for you"

Khoram
05-03-2017, 02:19 PM
"Also, I can't believe the Trolloc spear that killed Egwene passed right through her into Master Thane's prized stallion Cloud like that...Bela is the only horse we have left in the stable for you"

It's so crazy, it just might work! :eek:

Kimon
08-09-2017, 06:49 PM
This may well just be coincidental, but perhaps a hint that the show will be on scfy?

http://www.syfy.com/syfywire/watch-robert-jordans-the-wheel-of-time-series-in-5-minutes

Not sure if the clipart characters are just clipart or maybe actual actors?

GonzoTheGreat
08-10-2017, 03:20 AM
I think they're real actors, but probably not actors who are going to have anything to do with the WoT. So the answer to your second question is "yes".
I don't know enough about syfywire and such to even hazard an answer to your first question.