PDA

View Full Version : Game of Thrones season 7


rand
07-15-2017, 11:34 PM
Figured I'd start a thread since episode one is tomorrow. I'm not gonna lie, for some reason I don't feel overly hyped for it. I'm sure I'll get into it once it starts though. It looks like Dany will finally get to Westeros in episode 1 at least, so there's that.

fionwe1987
07-16-2017, 05:56 PM
I'm pretty hyped. I think its gonna be a fairly explosive episode, and season. I predict Euron-Cersei alliance happens soon. And I suspect Bran will make it to Winterfell this episode, and tell Jon about his heritage...

Kimon
07-16-2017, 09:15 PM
Decent episode, though the show's versions of Cersei and Euron are both still pretty poor reflections of the source material, though considering that GRRM is too lazy to be bothered to even attempt to finish his story, there's not much that can be done about that. That said, the inclusion of Ed Sheeran was also a bit off-putting in general, and that entire scene seemed like it would have been better off excised.

I wish I could have higher hopes for this season, but unfortunately the shows writers have been far less skilled in creating the story than they were when they were simply able to adapt it.

rand
07-16-2017, 10:39 PM
I don't really know what Ed Sheeran looks like honestly, so that didn't draw me out of the story as apparently happened with others. That said, that scene with Arya and the soldiers felt weird and unnecessary regardless of Sheeran being in it.

I'm wondering now how far show Arya is straying from book Arya. GRRM tends to keep things pretty realistic, so I wonder if he'll really have Arya go on a full on killing spree where she murders hundreds of people, or if it will be a bit more subtle. I liked the opening scene either way though.

So I guess Jorah's in Old Town now? I'm guessing that means Sam will leave for Dragonstone now too, taking Jorah with him.

My favorite scene was probably of the Hound. This might be Rory McCann's best episode, and he's had a lot of them.

Kimon
07-17-2017, 12:08 AM
I don't really know what Ed Sheeran looks like honestly, so that didn't draw me out of the story as apparently happened with others. That said, that scene with Arya and the soldiers felt weird and unnecessary regardless of Sheeran being in it.

I'm wondering now how far show Arya is straying from book Arya. GRRM tends to keep things pretty realistic, so I wonder if he'll really have Arya go on a full on killing spree where she murders hundreds of people, or if it will be a bit more subtle. I liked the opening scene either way though.


Apparently Maisie Williams is a big Ed Sheeran fan. Hopefully that's the last we see him. The scene was just dumb. Had she at least killed them all (they were Lannister henchmen seemingly) it would have seemed less pointless. As for Arya's murder spree, it didn't seem particularly out of character, but it was likely HBO's way of trying to get something akin, if less dramatically appealing, to the revenge meted out by Manderly. Arya's version of that revenge was still the best part of the episode, at least in my opinion, but I liked Manderly's version in the book more, as it had evoked Atreus' revenge on Thyestes, whereas Arya's was reminiscent of Hunn Raal's poisoning of the Hust, albeit, admittedly Arya obviously doesn't come off anywhere near as much an evil pos as Hunn Raal, since the Freys had it coming.

As for what GRRM might do differently, yeah, I have no confidence in him ever finishing even Winds of Winter let alone the whole series.

fionwe1987
07-17-2017, 12:48 AM
That first scene was brilliant. 14 years since I read the Red Wedding. That was sweet sweet revenge. I think its a high sign of the shows success that it had me cheering on what can only be called a mass murder.

As for that scene... I actually liked it. Maise Williams did a good job showing minor flashes of yearning and emotion when people talk about their family. I don't think these people are going to die, and I think this was meant to be a start of Arya's redemption arc. She can't be psycho villain girl forever, and she's certainly not going to succeed in killing Cersei. She has to move on to other things, and I think this is a sign that she'll head back to her family, and its to help us accept why she chooses to not go to King's Landing.

Any thoughts on what Euron's "gift" will be? I think the horn from the books will finally show up, and we'll have a captive dragon.

Also, surprising scene from the preview:

Someone is strangling Littlefinger. It looks like a person with dark hair that is slightly long, so... Sansa? I doubt he dies, it is way too early and they can't possibly give that shocking a twist away in a preview, but someone is going to be annoyed enough by him to strangle him. I look forward to the moment!

rand
07-17-2017, 11:59 PM
Any thoughts on what Euron's "gift" will be? I think the horn from the books will finally show up, and we'll have a captive dragon.
I hope it's the horn, but I doubt it. It seems like they're trying to take ignore everything that makes Euron cool in the books. Some people think he's captured Gendry, who's been confirmed to be back this season


A few more things:

Sansa' hair style is the same as Cersei's was in the earlier seasons.

Sandor's vision was presumably of Eastwatch, but if so, what's the mountain that looks like an arrowhead?

Anyone else think Littlefinger is the clearest example of the show runners not quite knowing what to do with the story without GRRM? He was great in King's Landing, but ever since leaving there it's like they have no idea what to have Littlefinger do.

The Dragonpit was mentioned a couple times. I'm not 100% sure, but this might be the first mention of it. I heard rumors a while ago saying that there'd be a huge scene at the Dragonpit featuring almost the entire main cast, so I hope this happens. Kind of like the Field of Merrilor in WoT.

Kimon
07-23-2017, 09:18 PM
It continues to feel like all the major alterations that the show has made to the story have been colossal mistakes.

The sand snakes are all ridiculously awful characters. Especially in contrast to Arianne Martell. Choosing to excise Arianne and making this odd decision to make Ellaria take her place continues to be an unmitigated disaster. And now? Not only have they ruined the Dornish storyline, but also Euron's, which admittedly always seemed kind of a pointless and aimless tangent even in the books.

I suppose it is at least fitting that Dany has already managed to muck up her invasion. Not surprising. They should have just left her to rot in Slaver's Bay and had Tyrion meet up and then stay permanently with Aegon and Jon Connington. Instead the show continues to try to focus far too much on the two worst characters, Dany and Cersei, and failed to rehab Jaime.

At this point I'm almost hoping the wights win.

GonzoTheGreat
07-24-2017, 03:11 AM
At this point I'm almost hoping the wights win.
Could be what Martin has been aiming at all along too. In which case the show would still be true to the books, wouldn't it?

DahLliA
07-24-2017, 11:35 AM
Holy crap. These shitheads fighting over Westeros needs to stop throwing away their armies and fleets.

Jon should be dead after his stupid charge last season.

And shouldn't Euron's fleet and What's-her-face's be fairly evenly matched? And how shitty sailors/pirates/viking-wannabes are you if you let a gigantic ship with even bigger sails just sneak up on the flagship containing every important character in the fleet?

Stuff like this just pisses me off. There shouldn't be a single man in warfaring age left in Westeros by now with the speed they're dying off.

And yeah. The Sand Snakes are supposed to be some of the best fighters around. And don't they always poison their weapons?

Euron didn't really need a "look how badass I am, killing people left and right even though I've been cut and stabbed a million times". All his awesome jokes on Jaime's expense last episode was all the awesome he needed.

And we can also just start counting down to Littlefinger and Sansa stabbing Jon in the back because it's GoT and by god we wont let anything go well because that would be too obvious...

Bleh. Just finished the episode and I felt like ranting.

Yeah. Let the White Walkers win. So far the Night King is the only leader with half a brain when it comes to warfare.

fionwe1987
07-24-2017, 03:26 PM
Seriously, what is with the pacing of this episode, given how few are left. This would have been perfectly fine, good, even, in a 10 episode season, but in a 7 episode one, this just presages incredibly rushed episodes to come.

Agreed about the bizarreness of the whole Euron thing. First, Yara doesn't even think about him as a potential threat, in the "Mostly dick-free council" in the beginning of the episode.

Then, she supposedly has no watch set, and a giant armada of ships that are all larger than hers (how did they achieve this?) just happens to run into them on the wide seas?

Also, Quyburn's ballista was nice and all, but a stationary dragon skull is a vastly different proposition than a moving dragon. And didn't Dragons have armor, in the past?

And Jon... nice time to antagonize Littlefinger, you numbskull. Seriously, couldn't you have picked a better time to threaten a guy who you've now left behind to play his games with Sansa?

Also, since when did Kings have to go personally to make their case? Ever heard of emissaries? I really hoped he would send Sansa and Davos, and that way cut off LF from Sansa too. It would have made excellent sense, and Sansa seem to be angling for just that. But I guess they need to speed up the (icky icky icky) Danaerys-Jon romance. So we get this load of nonsense.

connabard
07-24-2017, 03:44 PM
As a non-book reader and show watcher only I'm already tired of Euron, mostly for the end scene. Cool and flashy? Sure. But A) Don't the sand snakes poison all their weapons? B) Is he just regular invincible now? I know (from reading online) that him coming 'back from the dead' is actually just primitive CPR so it's not like he can't be killed, but it seems like at the very least he's being shown like he could get beheaded and he would be up and about in 5

I always liked the 'villains' of past seasons because they didn't seem to be written like they're unkillable.
It seems lazy from what I've at least considered pretty well-written stuff the last 6 seasons

Kimon
07-24-2017, 03:45 PM
Also, Quyburn's ballista was nice and all, but a stationary dragon skull is a vastly different proposition than a moving dragon. And didn't Dragons have armor, in the past?


There'd also be the issue of altering the angle quickly against a target that isn't just moving horizontally, but vertically. The ballista was almost exclusively a siege weapon used against fortifications. Simple crossbows using heavier than normal quarrels (or incendiaries) would likely be far more effective. Either way, I'd prefer having the dragons attack a fortified position at night rather than in the day, making that ballista even less credible in terms of efficacy.

And Jon... nice time to antagonize Littlefinger, you numbskull. Seriously, couldn't you have picked a better time to threaten a guy who you've now left behind to play his games with Sansa?

Also, since when did Kings have to go personally to make their case? Ever heard of emissaries? I really hoped he would send Sansa and Davos, and that way cut off LF from Sansa too. It would have made excellent sense, and Sansa seem to be angling for just that. But I guess they need to speed up the (icky icky icky) Danaerys-Jon romance. So we get this load of nonsense.

Equally silly, why isn't Jon having these conversations in private with Sansa and then just announcing his decisions in council so as to avoid these constant public arguments? Being an incompetent leader seems an ubiquitous character trait for the show.

Kimon
07-24-2017, 03:53 PM
As a non-book reader and show watcher only I'm already tired of Euron, mostly for the end scene. Cool and flashy? Sure. But A) Don't the sand snakes poison all their weapons? B) Is he just regular invincible now? I know (from reading online) that him coming 'back from the dead' is actually just primitive CPR so it's not like he can't be killed, but it seems like at the very least he's being shown like he could get beheaded and he would be up and about in 5

I always liked the 'villains' of past seasons because they didn't seem to be written like they're unkillable.
It seems lazy from what I've at least considered pretty well-written stuff the last 6 seasons

Part of the problem is that the sand snakes aren't even fighters (except Obara) in the books. They are diplomat/assassins. Think more Putin kompromat operatives/assassins, rather than warriors. I think that the show was just lazy and decided that they already had introduced Ellaria (a very minor character in the books), and so decided to save money by excising Arianne Martell (a major character) and then having the sand skanks assassinate Doran.

The result was destroying the entire point of the Dorne plotline. Mind you the show has gotten significantly worse the last few seasons for an obvious reason - this is material that they had to completely fabricate as GRRM has been too lazy to bother writing any new material basically since the show began.

fionwe1987
07-24-2017, 05:11 PM
Yeah, book Ellaria is a sympathetic character who has a memorable line about the back-and-forth of vengeance, and then bows gracefully out of the scene. Arianne is a much more complex and interesting person, and Doran, far from being an idiot, is the kind of cautious and kind leader the show could really do with.

There'd also be the issue of altering the angle quickly against a target that isn't just moving horizontally, but vertically. The ballista was almost exclusively a siege weapon used against fortifications. Simple crossbows using heavier than normal quarrels (or incendiaries) would likely be far more effective. Either way, I'd prefer having the dragons attack a fortified position at night rather than in the day, making that ballista even less credible in terms of efficacy.

Yup. Plus, the contraption Quyburn showed us didn't look all that maneuverable.

Also, if Dragonfire can melt metal, what's to stop them from just sending a stream of fire at an incoming bolt?

Equally silly, why isn't Jon having these conversations in private with Sansa and then just announcing his decisions in council so as to avoid these constant public arguments? Being an incompetent leader seems an ubiquitous character trait for the show.
Yes, these public fights are getting tiring. Once was somewhat understandable, but if Sansa is being set up as this super-politician, it does their cause no good by having her not realize the difference between public and private dissent.

DahLliA
07-24-2017, 05:37 PM
They're clearly setting Sansa up to either willingly or accidentally betray Jon. That's the cause of all the public fight scenes imo.

fionwe1987
07-24-2017, 07:39 PM
They're clearly setting Sansa up to either willingly or accidentally betray Jon. That's the cause of all the public fight scenes imo.

Either that, or all this is to encourage Littlefinger into thinking he can widen the rift, and Sansa plays along, till she undercuts him in the last minute and kills him off.

I have nothing to explain why I think this is coming, but there seems to be honest affection and respect in the Sansa-Jon alone scenes, but in public, she's a lot more antagonistic with him. I feel she's doing this for LF's benefit. She keeps looking at him in these scenes, and they keep cutting to his smirk in these scenes, as he sees these rifts. It seems like a setup.

She's playing the reluctant seductee who needs "rescue" by LF, and he seems to be wading into it, because he doesn't see that Sansa seems to genuinely love Jon, though I'm sure her frustrates her too.

And guess who's going to join Sansa soon: assassin extraordinaire Arya. Who better to kill LF, take on his face, and then basically deliver the Vale to Sansa?

Davian93
07-24-2017, 10:21 PM
They're clearly setting Sansa up to either willingly or accidentally betray Jon. That's the cause of all the public fight scenes imo.

It would be impressive in the sense that it would make me hate her character even more than I already do.

Sansa is utterly freaking annoying. You never, ever disagree in front of others in such a situation. Whether its a modern day office with your manager or a fantasy version of the Wars of the Roses (Now With Dragons!!!) television show.

rand
07-24-2017, 10:51 PM
Regarding the Sand Snakes, I assume they only poison their weapons before a fight rather than constantly keeping them poisoned, so if they were (somehow) caught off guard by Euron's attack they probably would just jump into the fighting right away without applying poison first.

I agree Sansa's annoying. The books strongly imply she'll kill Littlefinger herself, so there's that at least. It also doesn't help that Sophie Turner's a terrible actress, IMO.

Wouldn't it have been easier to just knock Jorah out somehow, rather than basically skin the guy alive?

Also what's up with everyone dressing up like Matrix characters all of a sudden?

fionwe1987
07-25-2017, 12:04 AM
Sansa is utterly freaking annoying. You never, ever disagree in front of others in such a situation. Whether its a modern day office with your manager or a fantasy version of the Wars of the Roses (Now With Dragons!!!) television show.

While I agree, I also feel the fault is partly Jon's for tossing out these ideas for the first time in public. Why not discuss it with your sister first, then call the meeting of the lords? By not talking this through, he's all but forcing Sansa to make her (usually reasonable) points in public. Either that, or she shuts up and watches yet another family member die of acute Honorrrrr! syndrome.

GonzoTheGreat
07-25-2017, 03:14 AM
The result was destroying the entire point of the Dorne plotline. Mind you the show has gotten significantly worse the last few seasons for an obvious reason - this is material that they had to completely fabricate as GRRM has been too lazy to bother writing any new material basically since the show began.
In GRRM's defence: he'd been too lazy to write new material for a couple of years before the start of the show too.

connabard
07-25-2017, 08:43 AM
Either that, or all this is to encourage Littlefinger into thinking he can widen the rift, and Sansa plays along, till she undercuts him in the last minute and kills him off.

I have nothing to explain why I think this is coming, but there seems to be honest affection and respect in the Sansa-Jon alone scenes, but in public, she's a lot more antagonistic with him. I feel she's doing this for LF's benefit. She keeps looking at him in these scenes, and they keep cutting to his smirk in these scenes, as he sees these rifts. It seems like a setup.

She's playing the reluctant seductee who needs "rescue" by LF, and he seems to be wading into it, because he doesn't see that Sansa seems to genuinely love Jon, though I'm sure her frustrates her too.

And guess who's going to join Sansa soon: assassin extraordinaire Arya. Who better to kill LF, take on his face, and then basically deliver the Vale to Sansa?

This is my hopeful train of thought. While I actually enjoy Sansa, more for what I consider her potential rather than any actual thing she's done or any trait she has, I still worry that GRRM is edgy enough to have everyone just be selfish and bad except for the trio of Tyrion/Dany/Jon

Kimon
07-25-2017, 08:54 AM
This is my hopeful train of thought. While I actually enjoy Sansa, more for what I consider her potential rather than any actual thing she's done or any trait she has, I still worry that GRRM is edgy enough to have everyone just be selfish and bad except for the trio of Tyrion/Dany/Jon

There was so much more depth and growth to the characters in the books than in the show. This was most obvious in the books with Sansa and Jaime, two characters that inspired little besides hate in the early books, then developed into far more noble characters. The show has largely abandoned this sort of character development.

Davian93
07-25-2017, 09:26 AM
While I agree, I also feel the fault is partly Jon's for tossing out these ideas for the first time in public. Why not discuss it with your sister first, then call the meeting of the lords? By not talking this through, he's all but forcing Sansa to make her (usually reasonable) points in public. Either that, or she shuts up and watches yet another family member die of acute Honorrrrr! syndrome.

Regardless, you don't voice criticism of your manager (or king in this case) publicly. You do it in private and if he still disagrees, you shut up and follow orders. That's life regardless. If you really have an issue with said orders, you find another job (not really an option in Sansa's case but still).

Its not as if Jon can't come back the next day and say "I've thought about it and I'm altering the plan a bit, The Onion Knight is going as my Hand and I'll stay here to help prepare for the invasion".

Davian93
07-25-2017, 09:27 AM
Regarding the Sand Snakes, I assume they only poison their weapons before a fight rather than constantly keeping them poisoned, so if they were (somehow) caught off guard by Euron's attack they probably would just jump into the fighting right away without applying poison first.

I agree Sansa's annoying. The books strongly imply she'll kill Littlefinger herself, so there's that at least. It also doesn't help that Sophie Turner's a terrible actress, IMO.

Wouldn't it have been easier to just knock Jorah out somehow, rather than basically skin the guy alive?

Also what's up with everyone dressing up like Matrix characters all of a sudden?

THIS...ONE MILLION TIMES THIS!!!

Why does she always look like she's constipated/stupid? And its not her characterization of Sansa either. She's exactly the same in the X Men movie she's in.

Sarevok
07-25-2017, 02:43 PM
Regardless, you don't voice criticism of your manager (or king in this case) publicly. You do it in private and if he still disagrees, you shut up and follow orders. That's life regardless. If you really have an issue with said orders, you find another job (not really an option in Sansa's case but still).

I disagree here. As someone else pointed out, Jon apparently never ran all this by Sansa before announcing stuff publicly, leaving her with little other choice than either calling him out publicly or letting him do stupid stuff un-opposed.
Also, technically it's not like Sansa is 2nd in command or anything (at least not till he makes her so by the end of the thing). She's just one of his liege lords and ladies, just like all the others in attendance. The only reason she's sitting at the main table is because the meeting happens to be at her place.

My main gripe with the Euron/Yara fight isn't that they were caught off guard, but a bigger thing imo is: what the hell were all the Sand Snakes AND Olenna doing at Dragonstone? For both of them, it's pretty much on the other side of Westeros from their seats of power. Even going there would have beena huge risk, considering they'd all have to pretty much sail past King's Landing to get to Dragonstone...

Davian93
07-26-2017, 09:33 AM
I disagree here. As someone else pointed out, Jon apparently never ran all this by Sansa before announcing stuff publicly, leaving her with little other choice than either calling him out publicly or letting him do stupid stuff un-opposed.
Also, technically it's not like Sansa is 2nd in command or anything (at least not till he makes her so by the end of the thing). She's just one of his liege lords and ladies, just like all the others in attendance. The only reason she's sitting at the main table is because the meeting happens to be at her place.

My main gripe with the Euron/Yara fight isn't that they were caught off guard, but a bigger thing imo is: what the hell were all the Sand Snakes AND Olenna doing at Dragonstone? For both of them, it's pretty much on the other side of Westeros from their seats of power. Even going there would have beena huge risk, considering they'd all have to pretty much sail past King's Landing to get to Dragonstone...

I disagree with your disagreement. She's a Stark as is he...they need to show a united front in public at all times to the non-Starks. Otherwise, it leads to issues with those outside lords & ladies. She can disagree all the time in private and I'm sure she would have had a chance to do so after the meeting when they're alone but in public, you gotta keep up appearances. If Sansa is undercutting him as Lady of Winterfell, it seriously weakens his position.

Remember, he might be king but its not a true autocracy. He depends on those people for his military force and all sorts of other things. He's really just a glorified first among equals when you come down to it. They gave him a crown and they can just as easily take it away.

On the Sand Snakes and Olenna...they used the same magical teleporter device that Littlefinger has had access to on the show. But its not truly the far side for them since they were last in Sunspear and they only had to sail around the Stormlands to get to Dragonstone. Up until Euron showed up, Cersei didn't have a navy anymore so the risk was pretty minimal to swear fealty to their new Queen. If they stay where they're at, they're divided and alone and Cersei/House Lannister could pick them off one by one.

I also imagine a good bit of time passed and they knew that Dany controlled those seas (or was at least between them and any potential force Cersei might try to send from King's Landing which amounts to the same thing) so there were no concerns for them to make the trip.

The more interesting question on travel times is how will they show the time it takes Jon & Ser Davos to travel from Winterfall to Dragonstone (a pretty substantial trip distance wise especially in winter) given that the previews show Jon there next episode. Figure that's got to be several weeks at a minimum of travel time.

fionwe1987
07-26-2017, 10:36 AM
Regardless, you don't voice criticism of your manager (or king in this case) publicly. You do it in private and if he still disagrees, you shut up and follow orders.

This is bizarre. Since when was this the standard operating procedure for leaders and their advisors? In the other thread about Trump, you clearly do not hold to this standard. And Sansa is hardly the only one criticizing Jon's choice here. Yohn Royce, Glover, and even Lyanana Mormont do so. Why do you single out Sansa?

Further, even Ned very publicly disagreed with Robert over sending assassins to kill Danaerys. Was he wrong? Was he undermining the king? Should he have waited to talk this over in private?

And in this case, Sansa was given no opportunity to voice her opinion in private. That is Jon's own damned fault.

That's life regardless. If you really have an issue with said orders, you find another job (not really an option in Sansa's case but still).

Sansa is not Jon's employee. She has no obligation to obey and never criticize him.

Its not as if Jon can't come back the next day and say "I've thought about it and I'm altering the plan a bit, The Onion Knight is going as my Hand and I'll stay here to help prepare for the invasion".

It isn't like he couldn't have sounded out his closest allies first, either. The fault is Jon's, here.

Kimon
07-26-2017, 11:39 AM
This is bizarre. Since when was this the standard operating procedure for leaders and their advisors? In the other thread about Trump, you clearly do not hold to this standard. And Sansa is hardly the only one criticizing Jon's choice here. Yohn Royce, Glover, and even Lyanana Mormont do so. Why do you single out Sansa?

Further, even Ned very publicly disagreed with Robert over sending assassins to kill Danaerys. Was he wrong? Was he undermining the king? Should he have waited to talk this over in private?

And in this case, Sansa was given no opportunity to voice her opinion in private. That is Jon's own damned fault.



Sansa is not Jon's employee. She has no obligation to obey and never criticize him.



It isn't like he couldn't have sounded out his closest allies first, either. The fault is Jon's, here.

I fault both of them. Sansa should be raising these issues with him in private so as to avoid undercutting his ability to effectively govern. Doing so after the fact would lessen her ability to effect policy, but she could have urged him after their first public spat that she didn't ever want to have to do that again, urged him to discuss major policy decisions in private with her first to avoid this. She should have stressed that she wasn't just another ordinary bannerman/bannerwoman. She was his most important vassal, and his sister. He needs to demonstrate trust in her, just as she needs to demonstrate trust in him. Either of them should have been able to recognize the need for this, but she's supposed to be the more clever politician. So why isn't she acting like it? He's supposed to be noble but dumb, just like dad. You expect him to suck at politics.

My other issue with her is tone. She could have raised her criticisms in a much more diplomatic way. In a way that served to gently push him to the decision that she wanted him to make without undercutting him in front of all his other vassals. That gets me to another major issue. Why the heck is he discussing sensitive decisions in front of so many underlings. He should have appointed a small council - Him, Sansa, Davos, Lady Mormont, Tormund (maybe one or two others, but those are the ones that I would definitely include). One thing to have these debates amongst a small group of select advisors. It should not happen out in the open in front of so many. All that accomplishes is undermining his command, something which hamstrung him earlier at the Wall. He should have learned from his mistakes there, but it certainly doesn't appear that he has.

Jon is a good man, but he is a bad leader.

GonzoTheGreat
07-27-2017, 03:10 AM
He needs to demonstrate trust in her, just as she needs to demonstrate trust in him.
Trust?
I thought you were talking about GoT. What television show have you been watching?

He should have learned from his mistakes there, but it certainly doesn't appear that he has.
GoT
Jon is a good man, but he is a bad leader.
Admittedly, that doesn't sound like GoT; especially not the "good man" bit.

Davian93
07-27-2017, 08:13 AM
My other issue with her is tone. She could have raised her criticisms in a much more diplomatic way. In a way that served to gently push him to the decision that she wanted him to make without undercutting him in front of all his other vassals. That gets me to another major issue. Why the heck is he discussing sensitive decisions in front of so many underlings. He should have appointed a small council - Him, Sansa, Davos, Lady Mormont, Tormund (maybe one or two others, but those are the ones that I would definitely include). One thing to have these debates amongst a small group of select advisors. It should not happen out in the open in front of so many. All that accomplishes is undermining his command, something which hamstrung him earlier at the Wall. He should have learned from his mistakes there, but it certainly doesn't appear that he has.

I agree on the not having a small council thing. Why doesn't he? Also, why not make Ser Davos his Hand...or one of the other major northern leaders? Having that debate would be totally normal if it was in front of a small council (like Ned arguing with Robert against killing Dany and Viserys). Its totally okay to disagree behind closed doors but its something that is stupid to do in front of all your people like he and Sansa are doing.

GonzoTheGreat
07-27-2017, 10:03 AM
I agree on the not having a small council thing. Why doesn't he? Also, why not make Ser Davos his Hand...or one of the other major northern leaders? Having that debate would be totally normal if it was in front of a small council (like Ned arguing with Robert against killing Dany and Viserys). Its totally okay to disagree behind closed doors but its something that is stupid to do in front of all your people like he and Sansa are doing.
Then again, if Sansa thinks that her only two options are "commit suicide by stupidly and silently following a leader who is making a huge mistake" and "raise a serious issue before it is too late", then she may think that speaking up is the lesser of two evils. She might even be right about that.

Davian93
07-27-2017, 10:09 AM
Then again, if Sansa thinks that her only two options are "commit suicide by stupidly and silently following a leader who is making a huge mistake" and "raise a serious issue before it is too late", then she may think that speaking up is the lesser of two evils. She might even be right about that.

Sansa is never right about anything.

Rand al'Fain
07-27-2017, 11:23 AM
Sansa is never right about anything.

Killing Ramsay Bolton?

Davian93
07-27-2017, 01:09 PM
Killing Ramsay Bolton?

He should have been tortured first for a bit...getting eaten by his own dogs was a pretty quick death actually.

So, no, she's never right.

Weiramon
07-27-2017, 04:48 PM
Then again, if Sansa thinks that her only two options are "commit suicide by stupidly and silently following a leader who is making a huge mistake" and "raise a serious issue before it is too late", then she may think that speaking up is the lesser of two evils. She might even be right about that.

Bah!

Hardly an evil to sacrifice oneself for their betters.

connabard
07-31-2017, 08:08 AM
Honestly all I could think about the entire episode is how tired I already am of Euron.

Kimon
07-31-2017, 08:25 AM
Honestly all I could think about the entire episode is how tired I already am of Euron.

They're trying too hard to turn him into Ramsay. Perhaps Ramsay's actor simply was better, though the writing for his character was obviously quite a bit better as well. The Bastard of Bolton was a clever and entertaining psychopath. Euron has become but a tedious clown.

Hopefully Jaime will at least begin turning against Cersei now. A few seasons too late, but better late than never I suppose.

Rand al'Fain
07-31-2017, 10:17 AM
Well, Jon and Davos were certainly "overwhelmed" by Dany's titles. In that they kept going and didn't seem to end. Tyrion got a "look" from Jon when he found out why he was invited down. And Tyrion is really pushing for the two to become allies, or at least be amicable to one another. And with Dany letting Jon mine the dragonglass, it is a start.

But man, Cersei is 3-0 against Dany now. The Unsullied are stranded on the otherside of Westeros and probably the majority of Dany's ships are now gone. To say nothing of the Olenna now gone and Tarly throwing his lot in with Cersei. A devastating 1-2 punch there.

And Bran reunites with Sansa! Lost most of his emotion! And convinced her about his powers by reminding her of the one night she most wants to forget... It worked, at least.

Sam cured Jorah, and he left on friendly terms. Which will be a big plus to Jon and his friends. And it will give Dany something she really needs; an experienced campaign leader. Cersei has three. Dany has none, but Joroh will give her one.

While Tyrion is no fool, his pride and need for a one last "fuck you, Cersei" by trying to capture Casterly Rock was fully exploited by bis siblings, leaving the Unsullied stranded a continent away.

Sansa was doing a good job of running Winterfell, going through stores, making sure the armor was adjusted for the weather. Then Bran unnerved her. But, she'll believe him now. Not to mention of what he wants to talk with Jon about...

While I know CGI-ing the direwolves is expensive, completely ignoring Snow thus far isn't helping the show.

connabard
07-31-2017, 10:44 AM
One thing that the AV Club brought up that I agree with is that this season is really confusing as far as timelines go.

I don't personally care too much about not showing travelling, or even necessarily about showing how long it actually takes. e.g. Jon left for Dragonstone at the end of episode 2, arrives first scene of episode 3. I am fine with that in essence, but then we have scenes where Jorah is still with Sam, seemingly only the morning after their BDSM love fest.

So, does that mean, where Jon is, Jorah is actually half way to Dragonstone? Or 3/4? Why is there no news about the mass murder of the Freys? etc

I find it all to be a little jarring even for someone who normally doesn't pay attention to such things.

Kimon
07-31-2017, 10:47 AM
While I know CGI-ing the direwolves is expensive, completely ignoring Snow thus far isn't helping the show.

I take it you meant Ghost, but anyway, the direwolves were a bit oversized (real dire wolves were only slightly larger than a typical grey wolf, it was only their teeth that were notably oversized) even in the books, but seemingly not as laughably much so. I can't remember Ghost ever being as ludicrously huge as Nymeria was when Arya ran into her in the previous episode, but yeah, the show didn't do themselves any favors by making them so ridiculously huge.

But what they have really screwed up is how they have handled warging. They've touched on it a little with Bran, but nowhere near enough with Jon. I think the show missed an early opportunity for Jon to already bring up his connection to Aemon Targaryen to have used as a more effective ice breaker with Dany to at least soften and contrast with his mention that her batsh*t crazy, dick of a dad burned his grandfather and uncle to death. The other thing that he could soon do, had the show done more with this earlier (which it hasn't unfortunately), is that he could have explained warging to Dany. Perhaps he could have even reached out to her dragons, formed a bond with one, and then perhaps teach her (and maybe Tyrion...) to do the same with the other two. But the show has kind of dropped the ball on his warg abilities.

DahLliA
07-31-2017, 11:31 AM
Still baffled at how shit they are at scouting. Oh. A few thousand men less in this castle? No way we could have seen that.

Oh. A thousand ships less than a short battle's time away? Clearly too hard to spot.

Then again. I guess it's hard to defend against a rushed plot :p

BTW. Anyone seen someone who's been keeping track of how many men and ships the different sides have? Pretty sure it should just be the king/queens and their Hands left by now.

Kimon
07-31-2017, 11:51 AM
BTW. Anyone seen someone who's been keeping track of how many men and ships the different sides have? Pretty sure it should just be the king/queens and their Hands left by now.

Heck, you could also ask where exactly are all of Dany's Dothraki supposed to be? On Dragonstone? Eating what? Still across the sea? How will they be ferried across with her now having seemingly no navy save seemingly Jon's one ship? Does Dany actually have any ships left at Dragonstone? It certainly didn't look to have a port.

But yeah, aside from Sansa's comments in this last episode, logistics have largely been completely ignored. There are far too many soldiers left (and ships), but there is also far too much food. Starvation should be a far more obvious issue. The show has tried a little to point to the depopulation, the displacement of the peasantry, but hasn't really followed that up with the obvious factor that all this warfare has meant the loss of a few seasons of crops in large swathes of Westeros (especially the Riverlands - but also in the North due to the return of Winter), but the loss of the Tyrells would have meant the loss of crops almost entirely for the capital. There should be food riots in Kings Landing, but the citizenry there is suddenly, and inexplicably, docile.

Sarevok
07-31-2017, 12:01 PM
Heck, you could also ask where exactly are all of Dany's Dothraki supposed to be? On Dragonstone? Eating what?

Pretty sure they're at Dragonstone. There were 10 or so with the welcome party for John and we saw them on the ships in the last episode of seeason 6. No idea what they're eating, though. All those horses will probably munch through the sparse grass on those cliffs in no time, too...

I'm surprised no one brought up what was most jarring to me this episode, which was the scene with Cersei, Ellaria and the remaining Sand Snake (forgot her name). Ellaria and her daughter would have had the entire trip back from the open sea to the Red Keep to talk about what might happen. Cersei killing Ellaria's daughter in front of her must certainly have been one of the things that came up, right? How could they be this surprised? Also, Cersei was right in head-butting range of the daughter, so why doesn't Cersei at least end the encounter with a broken nose??

Kimon
07-31-2017, 12:20 PM
Pretty sure they're at Dragonstone. There were 10 or so with the welcome party for John and we saw them on the ships in the last episode of seeason 6. No idea what they're eating, though. All those horses will probably munch through the sparse grass on those cliffs in no time, too...


Yeah, Dragonstone definitely looks to have enough pasture for at least five or six horses, so at this point we're apparently left to assume that Dany has one stasis box with her Dothraki horde of thousands of warriors and horses (and presumably transport vessels as well), and that Cersei found her own stasis box that had a Lannister soldier cloning machine conveniently inside.

I'm surprised no one brought up what was most jarring to me this episode, which was the scene with Cersei, Ellaria and the remaining Sand Snake (forgot her name). Ellaria and her daughter would have had the entire trip back from the open sea to the Red Keep to talk about what might happen. Cersei killing Ellaria's daughter in front of her must certainly have been one of the things that came up, right? How could they be this surprised? Also, Cersei was right in head-butting range of the daughter, so why doesn't Cersei at least end the encounter with a broken nose??

I have to admit, considering the Mountain's presence, I was expecting that scene to be far more disgusting. Apparently the show got squeamish about that and so instead decided to leave us pleasantly surprised at the lack of rape in that scene only to leave us disgusted by Jaime again being seduced by his sister - which again seemed a mistake, it would have been far more in character for Cersei to have drunkenly wandered off to find Euron.

Meh, at least the new season of Rick and Morty has been good.

Davian93
07-31-2017, 12:55 PM
Well, they are basically having people travel off-screen but very clearly fairly large amounts of time are passing. For example, it probably took Jorah weeks to heal from his surgery at a minimum. Same with the Iron Fleet going around the continent, etc etc.

Davian93
07-31-2017, 12:58 PM
Still baffled at how shit they are at scouting. Oh. A few thousand men less in this castle? No way we could have seen that.

Oh. A thousand ships less than a short battle's time away? Clearly too hard to spot.

Then again. I guess it's hard to defend against a rushed plot :p

BTW. Anyone seen someone who's been keeping track of how many men and ships the different sides have? Pretty sure it should just be the king/queens and their Hands left by now.

Big issue for me...how the hell didn't the Tyrell armies just close the gates to Highgarden and let Jaime lay siege to them? We're supposed to believe that the Great Seat of probably the strongest house remaining in the 7 Kingdoms isn't a pretty strong fortress in its own right? Seriously? They could have at least held out until Dany's reinforcements showed up.

Unless literally all of the Reach jumped ship and went with Tarly but that didn't seem to be the case.

Also, Tyrion is a terrible tactician and his entire plan was stupid from the start. Not a surprise that Cersei/Jaime outwitted him given that.

fionwe1987
07-31-2017, 01:10 PM
They're trying too hard to turn him into Ramsay. Perhaps Ramsay's actor simply was better, though the writing for his character was obviously quite a bit better as well. The Bastard of Bolton was a clever and entertaining psychopath. Euron has become but a tedious clown.

Hopefully Jaime will at least begin turning against Cersei now. A few seasons too late, but better late than never I suppose.

I've seen Pilou Asbaek in Borgen. He's a pretty good actor. Euron is just a badly written character.

All I can say about this episode is that rushed, and completely illogical as it was (10,000 Lannister soldiers materializing from nowhere? The huge Tyrell army just disappearing?), it was all set up for one very icky, but almost certain thing: Dany proposing marriage to Jon.

Remember, Dany dumped Daario because she'll need to marry to cement some political alliances. And Jon Snow is the only person whose allegiance Dany needs who she can marry, given that I'm pretty sure she wouldn't want Euron or Jaime.

The preview seemed to hint at that. Dany say's she's losing. And there was enough of a thaw between her and Jon at the end of this episode to make it happen.

Like I said... ick.

fionwe1987
07-31-2017, 01:18 PM
Also, Tyrion is a terrible tactician and his entire plan was stupid from the start. Not a surprise that Cersei/Jaime outwitted him given that.

The only reason Cersei and Jaime are able to "outwit" him is that Euron's ships seem capable of teleportation. Tyrion's plan made sense. Take away the Westerlands, and you open the way to taking the Riverlands. With the Tyrells and Dorne in the South, that basically leaves Cersei surrounded with no hope for help from anywhere.

Even now, unless the Lannister army magically transports itself from Highgarden to Casterly Rock, common sense would show that there's a huge flaw in Jaime and Cersei's plan: you basically gave the Unsullied, known to be incredibly disciplined and capable of holding out against armies many times their size, an impregnable fortress from which they can range out and plunder the Westerlands (since you left them no food, nor any other avenue of retreat). Seems pretty clear they're setting up things for Grey Worm to do some things that will end up with Jaime getting a ton of egg on his face, Cersei turning against him, and eventually Jaime realizing Cersei is the shit.

And unless the show completely ignores the Riverlands now, they'll probably have Edmure freed, have Dany name him Lord Paramount of the Trident again, and you've suddenly only swapped control of the Tyrell lands for your own and the Riverlands, which can now be defended and freed by the Unsullied.

Of course, the show can ignore all that to move the plot wherever they want, but Tyrion's plan remains fundamentally sound.

Davian93
07-31-2017, 01:33 PM
The only reason Cersei and Jaime are able to "outwit" him is that Euron's ships seem capable of teleportation. Tyrion's plan made sense. Take away the Westerlands, and you open the way to taking the Riverlands. With the Tyrells and Dorne in the South, that basically leaves Cersei surrounded with no hope for help from anywhere.

Even now, unless the Lannister army magically transports itself from Highgarden to Casterly Rock, common sense would show that there's a huge flaw in Jaime and Cersei's plan: you basically gave the Unsullied, known to be incredibly disciplined and capable of holding out against armies many times their size, an impregnable fortress from which they can range out and plunder the Westerlands (since you left them no food, nor any other avenue of retreat). Seems pretty clear they're setting up things for Grey Worm to do some things that will end up with Jaime getting a ton of egg on his face, Cersei turning against him, and eventually Jaime realizing Cersei is the shit.

And unless the show completely ignores the Riverlands now, they'll probably have Edmure freed, have Dany name him Lord Paramount of the Trident again, and you've suddenly only swapped control of the Tyrell lands for your own and the Riverlands, which can now be defended and freed by the Unsullied.

Of course, the show can ignore all that to move the plot wherever they want, but Tyrion's plan remains fundamentally sound.

Dividing his forces that far from each other to preclude any sort of mutual support is a very bad thing to do tactically...and they paid the price for it.

Not knowing/realizing the Iron Fleet was on Cersei's side is also a massive fail...what happened to Vary's spy network there? Maybe if their naval commander hadn't be busy trying to have sex with their Dornish commander, that doesn't happen. But hey, I hope it was worth it.

For the Unsullied...I'd imagine Jaime has a nice bit of cavalry...I don't know how well even the Unsullied would do against heavy armor when they're half-starved. I'm sure Grey Worm will become the hero because that's how lazy writing tends to go but Jaime's plans are far more thought out than Tyrion.

They should have listened to Olenna and just seized KL. They do that and the war was over before it began.

fionwe1987
07-31-2017, 02:22 PM
Dividing his forces that far from each other to preclude any sort of mutual support is a very bad thing to do tactically...and they paid the price for it.
That wasn't the plan, though. The plan was for the forces of Dorne and Highgarden to be around King's Landing. While not exactly "close" they would still be available in case of some hypothetical sea based threat.

Also, aren't Cersei and Jaime doing the exact same mistake, then?

Not knowing/realizing the Iron Fleet was on Cersei's side is also a massive fail...what happened to Vary's spy network there? Maybe if their naval commander hadn't be busy trying to have sex with their Dornish commander, that doesn't happen. But hey, I hope it was worth it.
Yeah, both Yara and Varys had to be robbed of their competence to make that scene remotely plausible.

For the Unsullied...I'd imagine Jaime has a nice bit of cavalry...I don't know how well even the Unsullied would do against heavy armor when they're half-starved. I'm sure Grey Worm will become the hero because that's how lazy writing tends to go but Jaime's plans are far more thought out than Tyrion.
Hardly. Didn't 3000 Unsilled hold off against 50000 Dothraki? Jaime has faar fewer horse, and there are way more Unsullied.

Also, why will they starve? They aren't trapped on Casterly Rock, not unless a miracle army appears.

They should have listened to Olenna and just seized KL. They do that and the war was over before it began.
As is the kingdom.

connabard
07-31-2017, 02:48 PM
That was my biggest problem with Tyrions plan. He's allowed to make mistakes and not be the smartest about it because he's never been a military leader, and he is only the hand.

But Yara never once mentioned the danger of Euron? (This also leads to my other problem with Euron. He doesn't seem impressive because his one victory came simply at the hands of Yara being written about as dumb as possible.) No one at all even thought to send scouts to Casterly Rock? There wasn't even mention of "If Plan X fails, Y will happen, which will lead us to have to Z"

Davian93
07-31-2017, 03:17 PM
That was my biggest problem with Tyrions plan. He's allowed to make mistakes and not be the smartest about it because he's never been a military leader, and he is only the hand.

But Yara never once mentioned the danger of Euron? (This also leads to my other problem with Euron. He doesn't seem impressive because his one victory came simply at the hands of Yara being written about as dumb as possible.) No one at all even thought to send scouts to Casterly Rock? There wasn't even mention of "If Plan X fails, Y will happen, which will lead us to have to Z"

Well, one big problem Dany has is she literally has no experienced generals. Sure, Yara had some experience as basically a pirate and Grey Worm is a nice foot soldier but he's not exactly a Great Captain so to speak. One of those areas where maybe a guy like Jorah Mormont might have come in handy. He might not be Tywin Lannister or Randyl Tarly but he would have been better than their current crop of people with zero experience.

As is the kingdom.

Not really...sure there would have been a nice chunk of casualties but it would have been likely less than they've lost so far. I'm sure the storming of Highgarden was a pretty savage affair even if they didn't show it for example...not to mention all the losses in Casterly Rock and elsewhere.

DahLliA
07-31-2017, 03:51 PM
The preview seemed to hint at that. Dany say's she's losing. And there was enough of a thaw between her and Jon at the end of this episode to make it happen.

Like I said... ick.

Question is, will they find out they're aunt and nephew before or after they do the deed? :p

Davian93
07-31-2017, 04:04 PM
Question is, will they find out they're aunt and nephew before or after they do the deed? :p

Meh...they're Targaryens, that's not even a super close relationship as far that family is concerned.

DahLliA
07-31-2017, 04:35 PM
Meh...they're Targaryens, that's not even a super close relationship as far that family is concerned.

True. I just don't see Jon feeling that way though :p

fionwe1987
07-31-2017, 06:10 PM
Question is, will they find out they're aunt and nephew before or after they do the deed? :p

If they play true to their type, it'll be after. And we'll get more brooding and moaning from Jon. Joy!

Also, anyone else notice that there was a lot similar in the way Cersei dealt with Ellaria and what the Mad King did to Rickard and Brandon Stark? That's no coincidence. I doubt Jaime is going to be happy.

Also, Olenna's death was fantastic. One of the cases where the snow did the character better than the books, though most of that is thanks to Diana Riggs.

Davian93
07-31-2017, 08:04 PM
To be fair to Cersei, she actually had good reason to want them dead unlike the Mad King with Rickard/Brandon Stark.

They killed Myrcella with no provocation. Oberyn died in a fair fight that he volunteered for...getting "revenge" for that death was pretty idiotic.

fionwe1987
07-31-2017, 10:33 PM
Not really...sure there would have been a nice chunk of casualties but it would have been likely less than they've lost so far. I'm sure the storming of Highgarden was a pretty savage affair even if they didn't show it for example...not to mention all the losses in Casterly Rock and elsewhere.

It isn't about the casualties in King's Landing, which, while in the tens of thousands range, probably would be less than the loss to her armies. The point would be that this would completely turn the other lords against her, with good reason to back them up now. She just killed smallfolk by the thousands to defeat Cersei. What distinguishes her from the desires of her father, or, indeed, Cersei herself?

Rand al'Fain
07-31-2017, 11:14 PM
I take it you meant Ghost, but anyway, the direwolves were a bit oversized (real dire wolves were only slightly larger than a typical grey wolf, it was only their teeth that were notably oversized) even in the books, but seemingly not as laughably much so. I can't remember Ghost ever being as ludicrously huge as Nymeria was when Arya ran into her in the previous episode, but yeah, the show didn't do themselves any favors by making them so ridiculously huge.

But what they have really screwed up is how they have handled warging. They've touched on it a little with Bran, but nowhere near enough with Jon. I think the show missed an early opportunity for Jon to already bring up his connection to Aemon Targaryen to have used as a more effective ice breaker with Dany to at least soften and contrast with his mention that her batsh*t crazy, dick of a dad burned his grandfather and uncle to death. The other thing that he could soon do, had the show done more with this earlier (which it hasn't unfortunately), is that he could have explained warging to Dany. Perhaps he could have even reached out to her dragons, formed a bond with one, and then perhaps teach her (and maybe Tyrion...) to do the same with the other two. But the show has kind of dropped the ball on his warg abilities.

Yeah, my bad. But my point still stands; the Direwolves have been poorly ignored. Especially Ghost who sticks to Jon like a horse-sized shadow. And should have gone to Dragonstone with Jon.

"Good to see you Tyrion, you remember Ghost?"
*Cue the horse-sized wolf standing up from the boat*
"...Dragons and Direwolves. What next? An army of the undead?"
"You knew? That will save a lot of time!"

Davian93
08-01-2017, 07:46 AM
It isn't about the casualties in King's Landing, which, while in the tens of thousands range, probably would be less than the loss to her armies. The point would be that this would completely turn the other lords against her, with good reason to back them up now. She just killed smallfolk by the thousands to defeat Cersei. What distinguishes her from the desires of her father, or, indeed, Cersei herself?

No one gives a crap about the smallfolk other than maybe Varys. The other Lords certainly don't. tens of thousands of smallfolk have already died or will almost certainly die during the winter from starvation. Killing another few thousand won't change their mind a bit.

Olenna was right...they're all sheep and they need to fear whoever is in charge. Toppling KL and Cersei would have consolidated her rule over pretty much 5 of the 7 kingdoms in a single blow. Only the Vale and North would have been left free at that point.

Rand al'Fain
08-01-2017, 10:02 AM
No one gives a crap about the smallfolk other than maybe Varys. The other Lords certainly don't. tens of thousands of smallfolk have already died or will almost certainly die during the winter from starvation. Killing another few thousand won't change their mind a bit.

Olenna was right...they're all sheep and they need to fear whoever is in charge. Toppling KL and Cersei would have consolidated her rule over pretty much 5 of the 7 kingdoms in a single blow. Only the Vale and North would have been left free at that point.

Can't help but wonder how many smallfolk are even left in some places. Starvation, war, raids, and being levied into armies has probably taken a toll on the Stormlands, Riverlands, and The Westerlands. And we know the North already has a shortage of manpower.

Davian93
08-01-2017, 12:30 PM
Can't help but wonder how many smallfolk are even left in some places. Starvation, war, raids, and being levied into armies has probably taken a toll on the Stormlands, Riverlands, and The Westerlands. And we know the North already has a shortage of manpower.

I have to imagine the Riverlands are by far the most desolate at this point followed by the North due to the climate issues/infighting between Stark & Bolton and the Vale is probably by far the most well off.

The average smallfolk in both The Reach and Dorne are probably fairly okay too given the lack of actual battles that have taken place there up until now and the relatively mild weather. They've certainly lost a ton of men that were killed in other battles but the day to day village life in both places is probably pretty peaceful.

fionwe1987
08-01-2017, 05:43 PM
No one gives a crap about the smallfolk other than maybe Varys.

And Danaerys, and Tyrion, and Jon Snow, and probably Sansa and Arya too, to varying extents. Even Jaime gave a crap, which is why he killed the Mad King.

The other Lords certainly don't.

They may not, deep down, but that isn't the same as saying they wouldn't use the death of the citizens of the Kingdom's capital to justify their opposition to Danaerys.

tens of thousands of smallfolk have already died or will almost certainly die during the winter from starvation. Killing another few thousand won't change their mind a bit.
It most certainly will. Starvation and the like are things that take their time. Killing thousands by burning them in dragonfire is precisely the kind of thing that gets remembered and cements your reputation. Danaerys may win the throne temporarily, but she'll face plots against her from day one, if this is how she got it.

Olenna was right...they're all sheep and they need to fear whoever is in charge. Toppling KL and Cersei would have consolidated her rule over pretty much 5 of the 7 kingdoms in a single blow. Only the Vale and North would have been left free at that point.

And this would have cemented their opposition, and fomented rebellion among many of the lords of the other kingdoms. The Riverlands might well have reverted back to the "North" alliance that they are prone to like anyways. Whatever third cousin Lannisters survived in th Westerlands would probably rebel as well.

Fear is all well and good, but if you give proof that you are indeed the Mad King's daughter by blood and temperament, you're just asking for Rebellion.

Olenna spoke from grief and fear. And the need to see Cersei burned like her own Margery was. In a calmer time, she'd probably be the first to point to the limits of fear.

Weiramon
08-02-2017, 01:25 PM
No one gives a crap about the smallfolk other than maybe Varys. The other Lords certainly don't. tens of thousands of smallfolk have already died or will almost certainly die during the winter from starvation. Killing another few thousand won't change their mind a bit.

Olenna was right...they're all sheep and they need to fear whoever is in charge. Toppling KL and Cersei would have consolidated her rule over pretty much 5 of the 7 kingdoms in a single blow. Only the Vale and North would have been left free at that point.

Aye. This . . . this.

Kimon
08-06-2017, 08:53 PM
No complaints about tonight's episode - that one was well done.

connabard
08-06-2017, 09:57 PM
I very much enjoyed this nights episode, I liked seeing Dany's dragon in action and showing the devastation and how quickly it routes an entire army

Rand al'Fain
08-07-2017, 12:39 AM
I very much enjoyed this nights episode, I liked seeing Dany's dragon in action and showing the devastation and how quickly it routes an entire army

Routing a stretched out, worn down army that was fully ambushed and outnumbered...

I don't think she even gave any of the soldiers a chance to route. Let alone surrender.

And she kind of just burned a ton of food too.

At least it wasn't a city or castle she burned to the ground.

rand
08-07-2017, 01:36 AM
Kind of a stupid question, but...why no mention of Rickon? You'd think with all these Stark reunions, someone would think gee, where's that little brother we used to have? I guess Bran must know, but still...

Speaking of Bran, why isn't everyone asking him every question they can think of? The guy's basically an oracle now but they just wheel him outside to stare at a tree all day long.

I'm curious as to how injured Drogon really is. Will he just be fine next episode? I was actually hoping Bronn would kill him.

So Euron can sail from King's Landing to Casterly Rock in, like, a day. Dany can instantly transport troops to Highgarden. Jaime can get the gold from Highgarden to KL in an hour or two. And Jon can teleport from Winterfell to Dragonstone. But it takes Theon what must be months (assuming you allow for reasonable times for everything else to happen) to get from not-too-far-from-Dragonstone back to Dragonstone.

Anyone else think Jon drew the stick figures with chalk to convince Dany to help him? Lol...

DahLliA
08-07-2017, 04:09 AM
This episode was good. Finally some proper dragon action. And Euron's teleporting stealth-fleet was nowhere to be seen :p

And yeah. The cave paintings were very convenient :p

Davian93
08-07-2017, 08:42 AM
For the love of god on the teleporting crap...things happen off-screen and unlike the damn books, we don't need 500 pages of someone walking whining about where to whores go, etc. Just accept that they need to speed things up and that its shorter seasons now.

Great episode overall...awesome to finally see dragons in action after 7 seasons of waiting for it.

Kimon
08-07-2017, 09:43 AM
Kind of a stupid question, but...why no mention of Rickon? You'd think with all these Stark reunions, someone would think gee, where's that little brother we used to have? I guess Bran must know, but still...


Jon and Sansa saw him die (or at least Jon, can't remember if Sansa was close enough to see it happen, but she would have at least known what happened). Bran presumably should know, so the only one who really was still in the dark was Arya. They could have seamlessly cleared that up by only slightly altering the scene in the crypts between Arya and Sansa, having Sansa find her at Rickon's tomb instead of their father's.

Speaking of Bran, why isn't everyone asking him every question they can think of? The guy's basically an oracle now but they just wheel him outside to stare at a tree all day long.

I think the more salient question is why isn't Bran sharing more information with them - that scene at the tree with the dagger would have been an ideal moment for him to fill his sisters in on quite a bit on just how significant a role Littlefinger has had in the winnowing of the Starks, and in fomenting this entire civil war. But no, all he did was hint to Littlefinger as to how much he potentially knows (i.e. parroting Littlefinger's line, of chaos being a ladder, to him).

Bran is an idiot, and more than a bit of a dick. He not only lobotomized Hodor, but considering how he left things with Meera, at this point I'm hoping that the wights at least get him, though at least Jon, and even Dany, are finally starting to do something, which is really needed, because the show's writers have been ruining Tyrion since they ran out of GRRM's material.

fionwe1987
08-07-2017, 09:44 AM
Excellent episode. The battle was great, as was the Arya-Sansa meeting. Both had looong set ups, and they delivered.

fionwe1987
08-07-2017, 09:47 AM
I think the more salient question is why isn't Bran sharing more information with them - that scene at the tree with the dagger would have been an ideal moment for him to fill his sisters in on quite a bit on just how significant a role Littlefinger has had in the winnowing of the Starks, and in fomenting this entire civil war. But no, all he did was hint to Littlefinger as to how much he potentially knows (i.e. parroting Littlefinger's line, of chaos being a ladder, to him).


I think the implication is that the Three Eyed Raven doesn't care about politics, and is predominantly focussed on events north of the Wall. He gets snatchesof other people's actions when he thinks about them, but he doesn't focus on and expand those visions since he's too into following the Night King.

Kimon
08-07-2017, 09:57 AM
I think the implication is that the Three Eyed Raven doesn't care about politics, and is predominantly focussed on events north of the Wall. He gets snatchesof other people's actions when he thinks about them, but he doesn't focus on and expand those visions since he's too into following the Night King.

That may be, but the two are linked. A land fallen into chaos is vulnerable, and the more the Starks are forced to defend themselves to the South, the less they can do about the threat to the North. The Targaryens at least have demonstrated a dynastic recognition of the importance of the Wall and of the threat that lies to its North. The Lannisters and the other southron houses (and even the southern-based maesters) have never really seemed to fathom the Wall or the Night's Watch as anything more than a means of punishing criminals and undesirables - only the northerners and the Targaryens continued to send their own to the Wall.

Davian93
08-07-2017, 10:04 AM
I think the implication is that the Three Eyed Raven doesn't care about politics, and is predominantly focussed on events north of the Wall. He gets snatchesof other people's actions when he thinks about them, but he doesn't focus on and expand those visions since he's too into following the Night King.

This goes to the whole Bran being a dick thing too...he's pretty much not Bran anymore so of course he doesn't really care that much about Meera or all the others. Bran's body is almost a just a host for the Three Eyed Raven. Sure, his memories/personality are buried in there too but he's beyond all that now.

At least he made sure to compliment Sansa on her wedding dress...that was "sweet" of him. Still pretty much the most awkward conversation in show history which is impressive in its own right.

Rand al'Fain
08-07-2017, 01:37 PM
So, what do you guys think of the (not so) subtle hints of the show putting Jon and Dany together?

From what I've seen, its a pretty polarizing thing. Some people hate it, others have shipped it for years.

Me? I figured it was inevitable when Dany finally decided to head to Westeros and ditch Daario. And, with her other Westerosi allies dead (or as good as), Jon is the leader of the one faction that isn't actively against her.

It will make for some awkward moments when he finds out the truth of his parentage though.

Kimon
08-07-2017, 02:31 PM
So, what do you guys think of the (not so) subtle hints of the show putting Jon and Dany together?


It has been so mind-numbingly obvious in the books that any polarization at this point seems silly, especially considering that the show didn't even include Val or Arianne - those being seemingly the only other options for political marriages for Jon. Unless people thought that he had been intended to actually die permanently during that assassination at the Wall, this union was all but inevitable.

The incest does make it a bit creepy, but think of it this way, he is technically more distantly related to Sansa and Arya (his cousins) than to Dany (his aunt), but he didn't grow up with Dany. Which of those possibilities would you find the least disgusting?

And this sort of dynastic incest isn't ahistoric - the Ptolemies and Seleukids both commonly married brother to sister.

Davian93
08-07-2017, 06:42 PM
So, what do you guys think of the (not so) subtle hints of the show putting Jon and Dany together?

From what I've seen, its a pretty polarizing thing. Some people hate it, others have shipped it for years.

Me? I figured it was inevitable when Dany finally decided to head to Westeros and ditch Daario. And, with her other Westerosi allies dead (or as good as), Jon is the leader of the one faction that isn't actively against her.

It will make for some awkward moments when he finds out the truth of his parentage thought.

I have zero issue with it and it fits the whole "Ice and Fire" motif anyway.

It'll be interesting when they meet up with Bran.

"Good to see you, Bran, let me introduce you to my wife"

"Jon, I see you've met your aunt"

"No, this is my new wife"

"Aunt...you're screwing your aunt"

"I know nothing"

Rand al'Fain
08-07-2017, 08:29 PM
I have zero issue with it and it fits the whole "Ice and Fire" motif anyway.

It'll be interesting when they meet up with Bran.

"Good to see you, Bran, let me introduce you to my wife"

"Jon, I see you've met your aunt"

"No, this is my new wife"

"Aunt...you're screwing your aunt"

"I know nothing"
Jon Snow, King in the North, First of His Name, King of the First Men, the Uniter, Defender of the Wall, the White Wolf, Defender of the Living, and the Know Nothing King!

Jon- Davos, I thought we agreed about not having that last bit!
Davos- Tormund insisted.

connabard
08-08-2017, 09:57 AM
I am worried after seeing Sansas reaction to Arya sparring Brienne that she will 'go dark' because shes seen the changes in Bran, now a mystical Three Eyed Raven, Arya a faceless killer able to out-duel a very good and accomplished knight, Jon now King in the North despite being a 'bastard'

And Sansa is just more of the same, and although it would be very typical and obvious I worry they're gonna make her fully partner with LF and just be a piece of shit

Kimon
08-08-2017, 10:50 AM
I am worried after seeing Sansas reaction to Arya sparring Brienne that she will 'go dark' because shes seen the changes in Bran, now a mystical Three Eyed Raven, Arya a faceless killer able to out-duel a very good and accomplished knight, Jon now King in the North despite being a 'bastard'

And Sansa is just more of the same, and although it would be very typical and obvious I worry they're gonna make her fully partner with LF and just be a piece of shit

I think much of the problem here is simply that the show's writers don't know what to do with Littlefinger, which unfortunately means a lot of ambiguity about Sansa as well. Much of this difficulty likely is a direct consequence of their decision to have Ramsay marry and then abuse the real Sansa rather than the fake Arya - likely simply out of a desire to save money and truncate storylines. The two of them should have still been in the Vale, with Littlefinger now ruling it as Sweetrobin's regent (and slowly poisoning him with sweetsleep), and with Sansa still masquerading as his bastard daughter, Alayne, and presumably holding her as a discreet (or potential) hostage to be used as a bargaining chip depending upon which side in the war (if any) he decides to support, but leaving himself with the option to sit back and let all the sides kill each other off, then to take the throne himself if the opportunity presents - perhaps with Sansa as his queen. That seemed to be his plan in the books, but in the show he has seemingly devolved from clever and ambitious strategist to simply being a vindictive and sadistic opportunist without any real long term strategy.

Kimon
08-13-2017, 09:06 PM
Hopefully this season will be the last with Cersei. Perhaps Jaime will finally turn on her when she gives birth to some undead abomination because she's been banging Robert Strong (not sure if the show ever actually bothered with the deception of giving Gregor that alias) on the side. One can hope.

connabard
08-13-2017, 10:20 PM
They can't possibly believe, Tyrion most of all, that Cersei will abide by anything even in the face of the Night King and Co. right?

Kimon
08-13-2017, 10:50 PM
They can't possibly believe, Tyrion most of all, that Cersei will abide by anything even in the face of the Night King and Co. right?

I mean I would have just had the Onion Knight smuggle in a bunch of assassins and kill Cersei, then blockade King's Landing, circle it with my dragons to make sure they fully understand their options, and tell them to open the gates, surrender, and be spared, or that I'd barbecue them. But that's me.

Davian93
08-14-2017, 07:31 AM
They can't possibly believe, Tyrion most of all, that Cersei will abide by anything even in the face of the Night King and Co. right?

Possibly the stupidest subplot in the history of the show and just awful writing all around to justify sending the GoT A-Team north of the wall for some action scenes.

Its up there with Bran's refusal to tell anyone anything useful.

Davian93
08-14-2017, 07:33 AM
One thing that's bugged me on the show with Littlefinger...why hasn't Cersei even mentioned anything about "Damn that Littlefinger, I can't believe he betrayed us like that"...I mean, he literally totally screwed her over as far as she knows and nary a peep about it. Just very odd.

Also, Sansa continues to be an utter moron who is almost guaranteed to do something egregiously stupid. At least Arya sees it...even if she got completely played by Littlefinger in the most obvious setup in the history of the world.

connabard
08-14-2017, 08:30 AM
Possibly the stupidest subplot in the history of the show and just awful writing all around to justify sending the GoT A-Team north of the wall for some action scenes.

Its up there with Bran's refusal to tell anyone anything useful.

It just seems painfully obvious to me that Cersei needs to be dealt with first, because they do need the seven kingdoms united in order to survive the long night.

Which would be more exciting, at least, because it would give them a timer and then stress the situation (i.e. should Dany just send Dragons to melt cities, because then Cersei is done, but then that make Dany too close to her Father to ever be accepted)

Davian93
08-14-2017, 08:34 AM
It just seems painfully obvious to me that Cersei needs to be dealt with first, because they do need the seven kingdoms united in order to survive the long night.

Which would be more exciting, at least, because it would give them a timer and then stress the situation (i.e. should Dany just send Dragons to melt cities, because then Cersei is done, but then that make Dany too close to her Father to ever be accepted)

Using Drogon to execute Randyll and Dickon Tarly was pretty close to her father too. Just use a damned headsman, Dany. Burning people alive is kinda the thing your psychopath father was renowned for. It'd be like using a guillotine to execute someone after teh French Revolution (yes, I am quite aware that several countries did but it has an awful connotation). Perhaps "it'd be like using a gas chamber with zyklon B to execute someone in Germany after WWII". I think that works better though I did just godwin the conversation. Damnit, I hate metaphors.

connabard
08-14-2017, 08:37 AM
Speaking of that scene, Dany actually made me laugh out loud with her line about "killing you is what Cersei is about. Now bend the knee or die."

Davian93
08-14-2017, 08:38 AM
It just seems painfully obvious to me that Cersei needs to be dealt with first, because they do need the seven kingdoms united in order to survive the long night.

Which would be more exciting, at least, because it would give them a timer and then stress the situation (i.e. should Dany just send Dragons to melt cities, because then Cersei is done, but then that make Dany too close to her Father to ever be accepted)

I think Tyrion has a massive blindspot where his family is involved and even though he knows Cersei is awful, he still thinks she can be reasoned with. That's why he got outmanuevered the first time by them too. Cersei literally has zero fucks to give and he simply doesn't understand that. Jaime is beginning to see it but Tyrion is basically acting like an abused spouse thinking he can make her realize her errors and stop hitting him if only he tries hard enough.

Rand al'Fain
08-14-2017, 10:24 AM
I think Jon's desperation may be rubbing off on Dany, Tyrion, and the rest of her advisors. I don't know if Tyrion fully believes Jon about an army of the dead, but I think Tyrion believes that something is obviously making Jon so desperate as to make so many desperate decisions. Like coming South to meet a Targaryen, leaving potential allies at the drop of a hat, and not receiving any reinforcements other than Gendry.

That said, Dany isn't even demanding Jon bend the knee now! JonxDany shippers, rejoice.

That said, Gilly just inadvertently shushed those that still thought Jon was a bastard even by his true parents. Combined with Bran? That'll be a bigger bombshell then Drogon was to those Lannister troops last episode.

And, Gendry really wants to rekindle to Stark/Baratheon friendship, and is all gung-ho about helping Jon. Well, that's something. At least he ain't rowing that boat anymore (his own words even!).

Kimon
08-14-2017, 10:42 AM
And, Gendry really wants to rekindle to Stark/Baratheon friendship, and is all gung-ho about helping Jon. Well, that's something. At least he ain't rowing that boat anymore (his own words even!).

At this point I'd prefer a tragic ending, with the Night King sitting on the Iron Throne (perhaps with Cersei as his Night Queen), but the show is obviously setting up the fullblown Roman (technically Greek New Comedy - since much of Roman Comedy was just blatant plagiarisms of Menander - Shakespeare's comedy formatting follows the same ending guidelines) Comedy - with the weddings.

Jon & Dany
Sansa & Tyrion
Arya & Gendry

Which unfortunately leaves the very realistic possibility of Jaime & Cersei. Yet another reason why the show needed Arianne Martell.

Davian93
08-14-2017, 11:04 AM
The issues I had with the episode were as follows:

1. Its not believable that Randyll Tarly would refuse to support a Targaryen...he was the only Targaryen supporter to even win a battle during Robert's Rebellion and its not as if he's some long-term bannerman of House Lannister. If he had no problem fighting for the Mad King, why would he suddenly balk at fighting for his much more reasonable daughter? Especially after Cersei murdered everyone he ever supported in the Sept explosion? Its also, for that matter, not believable in the least that he would have betrayed House Tyrell in the first place. Its just lazy writing by the show writers to eliminate him and Dickon so somehow Sam will end up as Lord of Horn Hill after he magically gets out of his oath as Black Brother (perhaps when the wall comes down, those will go away too?). Show Randyll has zero relation to Book Randyll and its a bit annoying.

2. There is zero reason for the GoT A Team to go north of the wall its its just stupid stupid stupid all around...but at least we'll get the dramatic scene next week where at least 2-3 of them will die heroically to bring back a Walker all so Cersei can attempt to betray everyone in the season finale.

3. Sansa is a moron and will continue to be a moron. Her response to Glover and Royce should have been, "He's our King and he's doing what's best and I support his decision as should you. We all swore oaths". Instead she's very clearly setting herself up to be Queen in the North instead. So Sansa becomes a villain and Jaime's arc is very quickly becoming "Jaime stays a villain". More lazy writing. Though Sansa has always been an idiot so that's not a surprise.

4. Gendry's "war hammer" was just stupid to look at and completely impractical. War Hammers simply don't look like that and it would take a Giant to wield something that big unless it was made of balsa wood. Actual warhammers aren't huge weapons, they're essentially just big spike hammers used to shuck men out of their armor and poke big nasty holes through them. Its not a giant mallet that would weigh 50 lbs.

Rand al'Fain
08-14-2017, 01:00 PM
At this point I'd prefer a tragic ending, with the Night King sitting on the Iron Throne (perhaps with Cersei as his Night Queen), but the show is obviously setting up the fullblown Roman (technically Greek New Comedy - since much of Roman Comedy was just blatant plagiarisms of Menander - Shakespeare's comedy formatting follows the same ending guidelines) Comedy - with the weddings.

Jon & Dany
Sansa & Tyrion
Arya & Gendry

Which unfortunately leaves the very realistic possibility of Jaime & Cersei. Yet another reason why the show needed Arianne Martell.
Just to screw with people, I've been putting Sansa and Jaime together to "formally" end the hostilities between the two houses. Of course, this happens after Cersei marries Euron to cement his loyalty.

fionwe1987
08-14-2017, 01:26 PM
Hopefully this season will be the last with Cersei.

Much as I would love that, I doubt it. The story becomes too "good guys fight evil winter zombies" without her. She'll live past the halfway mark of next season, I'm sure.


Also, Sansa continues to be an utter moron who is almost guaranteed to do something egregiously stupid. At least Arya sees it...even if she got completely played by Littlefinger in the most obvious setup in the history of the world.

Sansa didn't do anything moronic this episode. Those points all go to Arya. And I'm not buying that Sansa will be a villain, or that Arya will actually turn against her. She cannot possibly be dumb enough to ignore that Sansa was a prisoner.

As plots go, this one of LFs is pretty idiotic.

Agreed on the whole Randyll Tarly nonsense. Also, it seems bizarre that Tyrion talks of the Tarly line ending with Dickon. For one, he knows Sam is alive, and for another, their sisters are alive too. The Tarlys are as finished as the Targaryens... ie. not at all.

DahLliA
08-14-2017, 02:09 PM
Good episode overall.

Then again. It's quite telling about the quality drop when a good episode simply means that there weren't any too big deus ex machina moments (or should I say Euron ex machina?:p)

fionwe1987
08-14-2017, 03:09 PM
Good episode overall.

Then again. It's quite telling about the quality drop when a good episode simply means that there weren't any too big deus ex machina moments (or should I say Euron ex machina?:p)

Apart from Bronn the super swimmer who manages to drag along Jaime in his armor?

DahLliA
08-14-2017, 04:10 PM
Apart from Bronn the super swimmer who manages to drag along Jaime in his armor?

https://memestatic.fjcdn.com/pictures/Game+of+thrones+mid+season+extravagansa+memes_b032 8f_6355476.jpg

Rand al'Fain
08-14-2017, 06:42 PM
Yeah, that whole scene had a lot of people head scratching.

Kimon
08-14-2017, 07:38 PM
Yeah, that whole scene had a lot of people head scratching.

Here's a video of a dude conducting a swimming test in armor. It doesn't go well, but he is able to swim a little. He's wearing more and heavier armor than Jaime, as he's wearing plate armor with full armor on his legs and arms as well.

https://vimeo.com/13634653

Jaime was basically just wearing a cuirass with shoulder guards. It didn't look like it was supposed to be representing much more than a linothorax similar to what Greek and Roman soldiers (like Alexander) often wore along with a few almost entirely ornamental additions. Greek soldiers forded rivers w/o drowning, and Horatius Cocles (admittedly a mostly mythic event) swam across the Tiber under enemy fire in full panoply. We obviously tend to think of Frederick Barbarossa's famous drowning, but he was wearing far heavier armor. Jaime also had Bronn, in leather armor, helping him. The main problems with that scene was the depth of the water (it looked ridiculously deep, but in addition, I'm not really sure if it was supposed to be a river or a lake) and questions about just how much his armor would have weighed.

Here's a video of some Japanese dude swimming fine in samurai panoply - the swimming in armor bit starts around the 2:40 mark, and his armor is much heavier than Jaime's, they said more than 20 kg. Jaime's cuirass probably (the actor's was probably just plastic - so likely just weighed around 2 kg, but you get the idea) wasn't meant to weigh more than 10 to 12 kg, and maybe not much more than 5-6 kg.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwDvJeP4WOg

Davian93
08-14-2017, 08:38 PM
Maybe it was a rift lake...

Rand al'Fain
08-14-2017, 11:28 PM
Here's a video of a dude conducting a swimming test in armor. It doesn't go well, but he is able to swim a little. He's wearing more and heavier armor than Jaime, as he's wearing plate armor with full armor on his legs and arms as well.

https://vimeo.com/13634653

Jaime was basically just wearing a cuirass with shoulder guards. It didn't look like it was supposed to be representing much more than a linothorax similar to what Greek and Roman soldiers (like Alexander) often wore along with a few almost entirely ornamental additions. Greek soldiers forded rivers w/o drowning, and Horatius Cocles (admittedly a mostly mythic event) swam across the Tiber under enemy fire in full panoply. We obviously tend to think of Frederick Barbarossa's famous drowning, but he was wearing far heavier armor. Jaime also had Bronn, in leather armor, helping him. The main problems with that scene was the depth of the water (it looked ridiculously deep, but in addition, I'm not really sure if it was supposed to be a river or a lake) and questions about just how much his armor would have weighed.

Here's a video of some Japanese dude swimming fine in samurai panoply - the swimming in armor bit starts around the 2:40 mark, and his armor is much heavier than Jaime's, they said more than 20 kg. Jaime's cuirass probably (the actor's was probably just plastic - so likely just weighed around 2 kg, but you get the idea) wasn't meant to weigh more than 10 to 12 kg, and maybe not much more than 5-6 kg.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwDvJeP4WOg
Oh, I know armor from medieval times isn't as heavy as often portrayed, but under the circumstances, and being able to swim that far away despite being RIGHT next Drogon and Dany?

Yeah. If they had been ready to go into the water, maybe I could see them swimming away underwater. But I don't think Jaime or Bronn got a chance to get their breath sucked in.

Kimon
08-15-2017, 12:37 AM
Oh, I know armor from medieval times isn't as heavy as often portrayed, but under the circumstances, and being able to swim that far away despite being RIGHT next Drogon and Dany?

Yeah. If they had been ready to go into the water, maybe I could see them swimming away underwater. But I don't think Jaime or Bronn got a chance to get their breath sucked in.

I was originally just thinking that it was the current that carried them downstream. That would obviously make more sense if it was a river, but after re-watching the scene, I'm no longer sure if it was a river or a lake.

Either way, that bit still seemed less far-fetched than the ease with which Tyrion and/or the Onion Knight supposedly met with and then arranged a not so clandestine meeting with Bronn and then Jaime. By this point Cersei should have murdered nearly every male dwarf in the south of Westeros, so Tyrion's presence should have raised quite the alarm long before those two random gold cloaks saw him. That whole decision to visit King's Landing and to attempt a parlay with Jaime and a cease fire with Cersei was beyond idiotic. Though had Dany done what she should have, and followed up her victory at that river/lake and just taken King's Landing & burned Cersei instead of the Tarlys, then they could have wrapped up the whole series just in these last two episodes of this season, instead of needing a season 8.

Sarevok
08-15-2017, 02:46 AM
I agree that Dany should just march the dothraki and dragons to King's Landing. She could just stand outside proclaiming everyone daring to man the wall will get roasted and she'd be inside in no time at all.
It was awesome to see Gendry again, but yeah, that warhammer looks like it came straight out of World of Warcraft or some LARP with rubber weapons... :(
But the biggest bombshell was Gilly's line about Rhaegar's marriage. If John is not a bastard but actually a ligitimate Targaryen, I think he has a better claim to the throne than Dany!

GonzoTheGreat
08-15-2017, 03:07 AM
If John is not a bastard but actually a ligitimate Targaryen, I think he has a better claim to the throne than Dany!
No problem. Dany inherited the throne when Jon died. The fact that Jon got over it is irrelevant, since by that time Dany was already the rightful monarch.

Davian93
08-15-2017, 07:50 AM
I agree that Dany should just march the dothraki and dragons to King's Landing. She could just stand outside proclaiming everyone daring to man the wall will get roasted and she'd be inside in no time at all.
It was awesome to see Gendry again, but yeah, that warhammer looks like it came straight out of World of Warcraft or some LARP with rubber weapons... :(
But the biggest bombshell was Gilly's line about Rhaegar's marriage. If John is not a bastard but actually a ligitimate Targaryen, I think he has a better claim to the throne than Dany!

Descending from the senior male line, Jon would definitely have a better claim under Westerosi law (which just happens to be almost exactly the same as medieval England's). Of course, Robert won it by right of conquest (same way Henry VII did) so Cersei's argument would be exactly the same as that. Just like all of those random John of Gaunt descendants who made claims to the English throne, it doesn't mean a wit to anyone unless Jon wants it and has the army to back up wanting it.

Rand al'Fain
08-15-2017, 10:25 AM
I agree that Dany should just march the dothraki and dragons to King's Landing. She could just stand outside proclaiming everyone daring to man the wall will get roasted and she'd be inside in no time at all.
It was awesome to see Gendry again, but yeah, that warhammer looks like it came straight out of World of Warcraft or some LARP with rubber weapons... :(
But the biggest bombshell was Gilly's line about Rhaegar's marriage. If John is not a bastard but actually a ligitimate Targaryen, I think he has a better claim to the throne than Dany!
See, that's a thing that gets me. In a show with dragons, warlocks, hordes of undead, and people being brought back to life, that fans criticize a war hammer being big. And not even mentioning how unpractical the Dothraki's arakh swords are. Not just from horse back, but in general compared to just about any other weapon.

So yeah. Getting hung up on the size of a warhammer but not the rest, just seems off to me.

Davian93
08-15-2017, 12:44 PM
See, that's a thing that gets me. In a show with dragons, warlocks, hordes of undead, and people being brought back to life, that fans criticize a war hammer being big. And not even mentioning how unpractical the Dothraki's arakh swords are. Not just from horse back, but in general compared to just about any other weapon.

So yeah. Getting hung up on the size of a warhammer but not the rest, just seems off to me.

Its just odd is all. Most of the other "standard" weapons that are pulled directly from real medieval warfare tend to be pretty much normal. So...given that a warhammer is a real weapon, its just odd that its so ridiculous looking compared to the real thing.

The Dothraki arakh is just stupid too as is their full frontal charge of Jaime's troops. They're horse archers and they would have weakened them up significantly with several volleys before that charge happened.

Also, they all would have broken and run the moment the dragon showed up...no matter how disciplined they were...no way that shield wall holds up on the appearance of Drogon breathing fire.

Rand al'Fain
08-16-2017, 12:10 AM
Its just odd is all. Most of the other "standard" weapons that are pulled directly from real medieval warfare tend to be pretty much normal. So...given that a warhammer is a real weapon, its just odd that its so ridiculous looking compared to the real thing.

The Dothraki arakh is just stupid too as is their full frontal charge of Jaime's troops. They're horse archers and they would have weakened them up significantly with several volleys before that charge happened.

Also, they all would have broken and run the moment the dragon showed up...no matter how disciplined they were...no way that shield wall holds up on the appearance of Drogon breathing fire.

Even their horse archers were few and far between. Too few to make much of a difference. And let's not get started on their total lack of armor. Even the famed Mongols wore armor.

But yeah. A bunch of light cavalry, most of them armed with close range weapons, charging headlong into a spear wall? The only worse thing they could do, is to charge headlong into a pike wall. However, there is historic precedence for this;
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Three_Thousand_of_Qohor

Well, my thoughts are that these are troops from the War of the Five Kings, making most, if not all, hardened veterans. So, while some of them were clearly afraid of Drogon, they would have the discipline and experience to hold. At least until Drogon torched big holes in their ranks for the Dothraki to charge through.

Kimon
08-16-2017, 07:37 AM
Even their horse archers were few and far between. Too few to make much of a difference. And let's not get started on their total lack of armor. Even the famed Mongols wore armor.

But yeah. A bunch of light cavalry, most of them armed with close range weapons, charging headlong into a spear wall? The only worse thing they could do, is to charge headlong into a pike wall. However, there is historic precedence for this;
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Three_Thousand_of_Qohor

Well, my thoughts are that these are troops from the War of the Five Kings, making most, if not all, hardened veterans. So, while some of them were clearly afraid of Drogon, they would have the discipline and experience to hold. At least until Drogon torched big holes in their ranks for the Dothraki to charge through.

Their swords are essentially just sickles - i.e. farming/harvest equipment. But a sickle and scythe tend to be easily confused, and I think that the Dothraki were meant to evoke the Huns and the Scythians, those being the two most famous nomadic horse-based cultures from early European history. Certainly aside from the horses and the nomadic nature, the Dothraki look far more like Huns than Scythians. The Greek sources all tended to describe the Scythians as fair, typically with red or blond hair, and blue or grey eyes - basically like the Northern Greeks, for instance, Achilles son Pyrrhus' name meant redhead. By contrast the Huns were swarthy, and far more savage - i.e. exactly like the Dothraki.

But I think that we can blame those sickle-swords on confusion of the scythe with the Scythians. The two words have no connection, and both the Scythians and the Huns used straight edged swords in addition to their preferred weapons - bows. The Huns also used lances. The Romans did fight against one barbarian tribe that used a sickle-type sword - the Dacians. Their sword type is typically called a falx (the Latin word for sickle). There are some examples of these on Trajan's Column.

Rand al'Fain
08-16-2017, 06:58 PM
Their swords are essentially just sickles - i.e. farming/harvest equipment. But a sickle and scythe tend to be easily confused, and I think that the Dothraki were meant to evoke the Huns and the Scythians, those being the two most famous nomadic horse-based cultures from early European history. Certainly aside from the horses and the nomadic nature, the Dothraki look far more like Huns than Scythians. The Greek sources all tended to describe the Scythians as fair, typically with red or blond hair, and blue or grey eyes - basically like the Northern Greeks, for instance, Achilles son Pyrrhus' name meant redhead. By contrast the Huns were swarthy, and far more savage - i.e. exactly like the Dothraki.

But I think that we can blame those sickle-swords on confusion of the scythe with the Scythians. The two words have no connection, and both the Scythians and the Huns used straight edged swords in addition to their preferred weapons - bows. The Huns also used lances. The Romans did fight against one barbarian tribe that used a sickle-type sword - the Dacians. Their sword type is typically called a falx (the Latin word for sickle). There are some examples of these on Trajan's Column.

A falx is pretty different from a sickle. And they were used by the Dacians (it was that battle that led to the Romans switching from chainmail armor, to segmented armor).
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=5181&stc=1

Whereas the weapons the Dothraki used in the show are about identical to the Egyptian arahk.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/c0/56/e2/c056e2bdb366bc772be322db7c2f20cc.jpg

As you can see, the falx is a two-handed weapon, used by infantry, while the arakh is a bronze-era sword ill-suited for heavily armored opponents.

Kimon
08-16-2017, 07:41 PM
A falx is pretty different from a sickle. And they were used by the Dacians (it was that battle that led to the Romans switching from chainmail armor, to segmented armor).

Whereas the weapons the Dothraki used in the show are about identical to the Egyptian arahk.

As you can see, the falx is a two-handed weapon, used by infantry, while the arakh is a bronze-era sword ill-suited for heavily armored opponents.

Falx was just the Latin word for any type of sickle. The Dacians just happened to be the only people that they fought that used a sickle-shaped sword, and so they called it a falx. The Egyptian type of sickle sword was called a khopesh, not an arakh - GRRM made up that word.

For what it's worth...

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Arakh

The weapon overall is an original invention of George R.R. Martin , but does bear some similarity to ancient "sickle-swords" such as the khopesh, the orak, the makraka and the falx. Martin's description of arakhs in the books (A Game of Thrones, chapter Daenerys II) is: "...in the blink of an eye the arakhs were out, long razor-sharp blades, half sword and half scythe."

Martin's conception of arakhs, however, actually differs from the arakhs produced for the TV series. When Martin described arakhs as "half-sword and half-scythe", he meant a curved blade similar to a scimitar. The TV series took his description literally, making a blade that starts out as a straight sword before turning into a circular, curved scythe-shape halfway through.

Rand al'Fain
08-17-2017, 01:03 AM
Hey, HBO, you suck at NOT leaking episodes. I'll still watch the episode this weekend, but man.

And let's just say, I liked it up until that last little bit of dialogue. And, still no freaking Ghost.

Dragons? White Walkers? Hordes of undead minions? Yep. One, single direwolf that is supposed to be Jon's companion and guide? Nope.

GonzoTheGreat
08-17-2017, 03:20 AM
Maybe the direwolves secretly serve the Shadow?
Could be that Ghost is Moghedien reborn (or preborn, depending on which Age GoT happens in).

If true, then Ghost is probably getting new instructions in Shayol Ghul.

connabard
08-17-2017, 11:20 AM
Having watched the leaked episode all I'll say until the official airing is:

I didn't like about 3/4 of the episode, most of that having to do with just how dumb this A-Team plan of capturing a wight is, however, the ending did a fantastic job of setting up the Night King as a real threat even to dragons, which I think was very necessary

Rand al'Fain
08-17-2017, 12:30 PM
Maybe the direwolves secretly serve the Shadow?
Could be that Ghost is Moghedien reborn (or preborn, depending on which Age GoT happens in).

If true, then Ghost is probably getting new instructions in Shayol Ghul.
Nah, he's deep undercover.

rand
08-18-2017, 01:12 AM
My only issues with the last episode:

How did Jaime and Bronn escape from Dany? They fell in the water like ten feet away from her. Even if Dany couldn't find them immediately, a few scouts should easily been able to do it. And it's not like they thought Jaime was dead, as they set up the meeting with him later.

Why does anyone think a captive wight will convince anyone of anything beyond the fact that they exist? One wight doesn't mean there's a whole army of them bent on killing all of humanity. Plus, Cersei basically has a wight at KL anyway (Gregor).





I think they're trying a bit to hard with the sudden Jon - Gendry friendship, but we'll see. I like that Jon - Gendry - Arya parallels Ned - Robert - Lyanna.

Rand al'Fain
08-18-2017, 10:36 AM
My only issues with the last episode:

How did Jaime and Bronn escape from Dany? They fell in the water like ten feet away from her. Even if Dany couldn't find them immediately, a few scouts should easily been able to do it. And it's not like they thought Jaime was dead, as they set up the meeting with him later.

Why does anyone think a captive wight will convince anyone of anything beyond the fact that they exist? One wight doesn't mean there's a whole army of them bent on killing all of humanity. Plus, Cersei basically has a wight at KL anyway (Gregor).





I think they're trying a bit to hard with the sudden Jon - Gendry friendship, but we'll see. I like that Jon - Gendry - Arya parallels Ned - Robert - Lyanna.

Except, I doubt Arya has such a low opinion of Gendry like what Lyanna had of Robert.

As for the wight, well, we saw Sandor bash the skull of a wight in with a warhammer, and it got right back up. Only fire, valyrian steel, and obsidian actually seem to kill them.

UnGregor is basically a Frankenstein's monster; a dead man brought back to "life" through science. The wights are powered by magic.

fionwe1987
08-18-2017, 12:37 PM
Saw the leaked episode 6, and I gotta say, I hated it.

Someone said we can assume weeks have passed between some scenes to explain the travel time, in previous episodes. But in this one, we can't. In the space of one night, Gendry runs back to Eastwatch, a raven flies to Dragonstone, and the Dragons fly back to Eastwatch in time to save the day. WTF? They could have solved this entire thing by having Dany insist on going up North with Jon and Jorah, and having them insist in turn that she stay with the Dragons at Eastwatch unless she was needed. Her conversation with Tyrion could easily have happened on the Wall, too. Dumb and Dumber's idiocy spoiled all the possible dramatic value of this episode for me.

connabard
08-18-2017, 01:18 PM
I had some issues with that as well, I assume that Dragons that large can cover quite a distance in a relatively short time, but Gendry running back, sending the Raven, etc. all would have taken at least 3-4 days no? And I'm thinking that would be bare minimum

Kimon
08-20-2017, 09:36 PM
I had some issues with that as well, I assume that Dragons that large can cover quite a distance in a relatively short time, but Gendry running back, sending the Raven, etc. all would have taken at least 3-4 days no? And I'm thinking that would be bare minimum

We didn't see them camp, so it is possible that they were only a few hours north of the Wall. Having Jon warg into a conveniently (or purposefully, if Bran was watching) passing bird would have been another option, but would have carried the added problem of how to relay the message once he arrived at Eastwatch. I was half expecting him to warg into the dead dragon to escape the frozen lake, but giving the wights an ice dragon was the more obvious option, even if having Coldhands show up instead ended up feeling like more of a deus ex machina than him using the dragon would have been.

It does beg the question however, can one warg into a dead animal? Is that perhaps essentially what the Night King is doing except on a much more massive scale - though perhaps like the inverse of what Bran is now able to do, i.e. his ability to warg into myriad trees or ravens simultaneously. That might explain why their necromanced cadavers drop once one of the actual White Walkers fall. Either that or it's just similar to dropping a myrddraal that was linked to trollocs scenario.

None of that really bothered me, however. Except perhaps that it would have been a nice allusion if all the random cannon fodder dudes that went north with them could have been wearing some red as a nice homage to star trek. Or the whole mission. Risking a sortie to take a wight hostage to show Cersei is a waste of time. Just kill Cersei. Problem solved. Civil War over.

But no, what was wrong with this episode was the idiotic dialogue between Sansa and Arya, coupled with Sansa's irrational decision to send Brienne south as her envoy. At least Arya proved how rightfully a Stark she still is, because she is just as stupid as Sansa. Maybe more so.

rand
08-21-2017, 12:52 AM
Well, they didn't seem to have many supplies with them, which would suggest they didn't go far. On the other hand, if Sandor couldn't see the arrowhead mountain from the Wall (even the bottom of it), it would suggest they were at least a day or two from the Wall. I've honestly just tried to stop caring about all the moving around quickly, but it's hard cause I obviously still notice it subconsciously. I was honestly expecting Gendry to run all the way to Dragonstone, though, and was sorta surprised that he only made it back to Eastwatch.

I was kind of surprised Jorah didn't die. Since they're going with the Jon+Dany thing, Jorah's just gonna go on one of his "trust no one but me" rants and get jealous again. Unless he got over that.

The Arya/Sansa stuff is just weird. I'm really hoping the whole thing is staged, and that they're tricking Littlefinger into thinking they're fighting when they're not...though that seems unlikely, since they only argue in private. Unless they assume LF has spies like Varys all over Winterfell.

Something I just thought as I type this though...you know how the books say Sansa will kill Littlefinger? "The same girl with the purple necklace will slay a giant in a castle of snow"...or something along those lines (from the Ghost of High Heart). What if Arya kills LF while disguised as Sansa? They seem to be hinting at this, but is it possible without, you know, killing Sansa and slicing off her face? Just a thought.

Also, does the Bran actor (forgot his name) have a contract saying he can't be in one season for more than 10 minutes? I mean, he's not the most interesting character (or actor), but they've devoted almost no time to him since season 2.

GonzoTheGreat
08-21-2017, 03:18 AM
They seem to be hinting at this, but is it possible without, you know, killing Sansa and slicing off her face?
Would it be so bad if she did that?

Davian93
08-21-2017, 10:03 AM
Easily the worst episode of the season and the entire series. Just awful writing at this point and they should be ashamed at the giant steaming pile they've taken on the storyline with this idiocy all around.

So disgusted by Game of Thrones right now.

Terez
08-22-2017, 05:24 PM
The episode could have been good, with just a tiny bit more respect for suspension of disbelief.

I wish I could believe that Arya had some plan to play the long con with Littlefinger but the after-episode discussion last week seemed to rule that out. They're all over the place with Arya's sentiments since she returned to Winterfell; I hate using the phrase "bad writing" because it's so often used to describe things you just don't like, but this is bad writing.

Rand al'Fain
08-22-2017, 06:18 PM
The episode could have been good, with just a tiny bit more respect for suspension of disbelief.

I wish I could believe that Arya had some plan to play the long con with Littlefinger but the after-episode discussion last week seemed to rule that out. They're all over the place with Arya's sentiments since she returned to Winterfell; I hate using the phrase "bad writing" because it's so often used to describe things you just don't like, but this is bad writing.

Yeah, I know Arya is loyal to Jon, and has done a lot of growing up herself, but its like she is unable to realize Sansa has done some growing up as well. And like Arya, is on Jon's side, but she has to do things a different way then just "sticking people with the pointy end", so to speak.

Hopefully, they axe Littlefinger and the sisters bond over it in the season finale.

connabard
08-22-2017, 07:53 PM
My problem with the three Starks right now (Jon, Arya, Sansa) is that none of them seem to be making decisions that they would actually make.

I guess I can see Jon with a dumbass plan to go North, but I can also see him like, I don't know, making an actual plan beyond just "go north. get wight. come back south. the end"

Rand al'Fain
08-22-2017, 09:23 PM
My problem with the three Starks right now (Jon, Arya, Sansa) is that none of them seem to be making decisions that they would actually make.

I guess I can see Jon with a dumbass plan to go North, but I can also see him like, I don't know, making an actual plan beyond just "go north. get wight. come back south. the end"
Like, having Dany with her dragons on standby at Eastwatch?

rand
08-22-2017, 11:48 PM
I mean, even if Arya and Sansa are fighting just to trick Littlefinger, the problem then is--why? Yeah, it would be cool to see him get a dose of his own medicine, but what's the point? If they wanted to kill him you'd think they'd just kill him.



Another thing, if the northerners know how to make wheelchairs, why did they humiliate Bran by making Hodor carry him around in the first two seasons?



A few people online have suggested that a lot of the deus ex machina stuff can be explained by having that whole ice battle sort of being a greenseer battle between the Night King and Bran. The Night King knew about Jon's mission, so he set him up and trapped him (explaining the random wight group they find, and why killing the White Walker conveniently leaves one wight still "alive"). They also had three of those dragon spears with them, meaning they hoped to lure Dany and the dragons there. And it would also explain why they had massive sets of chains with them. Though in hindsight, why couldn't the Night King just raise his arms up and resurrect the dragon while it was still underwater? Anyway, Bran saw all this and sent Uncle Benjen to save Jon. The last time we saw Benjen, he said he was taking orders from the Three Eyed Raven. This would explain at least some of the weird stuff going on.

Terez
08-23-2017, 12:19 AM
I mean, even if Arya and Sansa are fighting just to trick Littlefinger, the problem then is--why?
I don't think that is what is happening right now, but I do think they're trying to inch their way there with symbolism (the dagger). When it happens it's going to be some sloppy "oh we just realized we're sisters and Littlefinger is the bad guy" shit.

It would be nice if Bran just told them about Littlefinger's role in Ned's death. I'm confused as to why Sansa doesn't know that already; it's common knowledge, isn't it? Isn't that why Jon hates him? No, or Littlefinger wouldn't have gone on about trying to help Ned. Isn't that why Arya is suspicious of him? How has he made it this long?

rand
08-23-2017, 12:46 AM
I don't think Sansa does know that LF betrayed Ned. In the books she knows that LF orchestrated Jon Arryn's death and had Lysa lie about the Lannisters killing him, but I don't think they said any of that in front of Sansa in the show during the Moon Door scene. She does know he basically sold her to a psychopath, though, so yeah...not really sure how he's lasted this long. FWIW I think it would be fitting if he got shoved out the same window Bran was.

Davian93
08-23-2017, 08:50 AM
All of this is very easy to understand if you realize that Sansa is a moron and her idiocy is rubbing off on her siblings now that she's hanging out with them again.

GonzoTheGreat
08-23-2017, 09:36 AM
Stupidity as a socially transmitted disease?
That happens only in fiction, I expect.

Davian93
08-23-2017, 12:52 PM
Stupidity as a socially transmitted disease?
That happens only in fiction, I expect.

Stupidity is totally transmittable.

Just think about concepts like Crowd Effect and Group Think.

None of us are as dumb as all of us.

fionwe1987
08-25-2017, 05:14 PM
But no, what was wrong with this episode was the idiotic dialogue between Sansa and Arya, coupled with Sansa's irrational decision to send Brienne south as her envoy. At least Arya proved how rightfully a Stark she still is, because she is just as stupid as Sansa. Maybe more so.

Was it an irrational decision, though? Littlefinger basically told Sansa how he wanted the situation to play out. He wanted Sansa to double down on her fear and have Brienne do something about it. Sansa sent Brienne as far as she could so LF wouldn't be able to use her, then took matters into her own hands by investigating Arya.

To me, that was proof positive that no matter what Arya is thinking, Sansa is very clearly playing LF. She did the opposite of what he suggested, but in a plausible way that let's her pretend to LF that she is still listening to him.

As for the rest though: the plot really is stupid. I know they want the death of LF to be a big shocker moment in the finale, but by basically having him tread water trying to set up a sister-fight, they've ruined any value in his death. Neither Sansa nor Arya comes across as particularly clever, in this, and LF looks more and more stupid by the episode.

What shocks me is how utterly predictable Thrones has become under Dumb and Dumber. With no books, these jokers have no way to really set up interesting stories, and the only interesting moments are payoffs from previous seasons.

I'm fairly certain the finale will see Sansa and Arya kill LF, Jon and Dany will have sex, Cersei will plot some betrayal that will set Jaime off (don't forget that transparent Golden Company Chekov's Gun they laid out a few episodes ago), and the Wall will likely come down thanks to the Zombie-Viserion.

Kimon
08-25-2017, 06:37 PM
Was it an irrational decision, though? Littlefinger basically told Sansa how he wanted the situation to play out. He wanted Sansa to double down on her fear and have Brienne do something about it. Sansa sent Brienne as far as she could so LF wouldn't be able to use her, then took matters into her own hands by investigating Arya.


She is surrounded by suspect allies and potential enemies. She sent away the one person whom she knew that she could trust. Why not send Arya. Why not even hint that this would be a chance for Arya to strike another name from her list. The only way I send Brienne, is if it was Brienne accompanying Arya and Littlefinger - after making it clear to both Brienne and Arya that Littlefinger never makes it to Kings Landing.

To me, that was proof positive that no matter what Arya is thinking, Sansa is very clearly playing LF. She did the opposite of what he suggested, but in a plausible way that let's her pretend to LF that she is still listening to him.

Maybe, but if so the show certainly isn't doing even a remotely decent job establishing the spade work to set that premise up. This in no way strikes me as clear. This strikes me as something that book readers would see as long overdue, but would still look so poorly developed as to appear out of the blue.

connabard
08-25-2017, 07:03 PM
If anything to me it seems like Arya is playing LF. She got into that room that Sansa was in without making a sound, and she is being insanely out of character with how shes treating Sansa. If she isn't playing LF, then my god, they really suck at writing this character.

fionwe1987
08-25-2017, 11:10 PM
She is surrounded by suspect allies and potential enemies. She sent away the one person whom she knew that she could trust.
To do what, though? Fight Northern Lords and their armies singlehanded?

Meanwhile, Brienne being there meant she was availbe for LF to scheme over. Screwing honorable and trustworthy people is kind of his speciality, and he already revealed what his play with her would be. Why keep around a minimal asset who could become a major disruption?


Why not send Arya. Why not even hint that this would be a chance for Arya to strike another name from her list.
Maybe Sansa doesn't want to betray Jon by sending an assassin to the peace talks he worked so hard for?

The only way I send Brienne, is if it was Brienne accompanying Arya and Littlefinger - after making it clear to both Brienne and Arya that Littlefinger never makes it to Kings Landing.
Leaving Littlefinger free to scheme over Arya and Brienne while heading to his old power base? No. There's no guarantee either Arya or Brienne would succeed, or that LF would even agree to go south.

Maybe, but if so the show certainly isn't doing even a remotely decent job establishing the spade work to set that premise up. This in no way strikes me as clear. This strikes me as something that book readers would see as long overdue, but would still look so poorly developed as to appear out of the blue.
There definitely isn't enough set up, but my point is that when you have LF giving Sansa advice in one scene, and her taking actions completely contrary to that in the next, the fact that she doesn't trust Littlefinger and is plotting something is pretty clear.

Kimon
08-25-2017, 11:31 PM
Maybe Sansa doesn't want to betray Jon by sending an assassin to the peace talks he worked so hard for?


It's only a betrayal if you think that Cersei still has enough soldiers to be more useful alive than dead, and, even more importantly, that she could ever be trusted. Now, she does seem to oddly keep finding soldiers somewhere, but in reality she shouldn't be able to field much more than a few hundred boys and old men at this point (with the exception of however many men Euron has, though he is even less trustworthy than Cersei). And she clearly cannot be trusted. She needs killing. It clearly has to happen eventually. Book Sansa probably would have learned enough to recognize the need to be pragmatic. Show Sansa unfortunately still seems as naive as all her kin.

Leaving Littlefinger free to scheme over Arya and Brienne while heading to his old power base? No. There's no guarantee either Arya or Brienne would succeed, or that LF would even agree to go south.

Littlefinger at this point serves no useful purpose for the show. This would be the easiest way to write him out.

There definitely isn't enough set up, but my point is that when you have LF giving Sansa advice in one scene, and her taking actions completely contrary to that in the next, the fact that she doesn't trust Littlefinger and is plotting something is pretty clear.

Again, maybe this is what happens, but I just don't see any such careful plotting to her actions. It seems like genuine panic. That could just be bad writing. Or bad acting.

Infidel
08-26-2017, 04:06 AM
...If she isn't playing LF, then my god, they really suck at writing this character.

Remember back when she was getting ready to leave Bravos, and was walking around openly in the city, despite having defied Jaqen and the Faceless Men?

They really suck at writing...everyone, lately.

Kimon
08-26-2017, 09:07 AM
Remember back when she was getting ready to leave Bravos, and was walking around openly in the city, despite having defied Jaqen and the Faceless Men?

They really suck at writing...everyone, lately.

I've often been left wondering why GRRM didn't just become part of the writing staff, if not the primary writer, for the show for these later seasons. He could have just thrown out bare-bones versions of plotlines and let the other writers flesh things out, then make corrections where he felt they had gone astray. My guess for why this didn't happen was that he was either still deluding himself, or the world, that he was actually trying to finish the books instead, and thus didn't have time, or that it was money, i.e. he asked for way more than they could budget.

Speaking of which...

http://www.nme.com/news/tv/game-thrones-george-r-r-martin-havent-watched-season-seven-2128094

Game of Thrones writer George R.R. Martin has admitted that he has not seen any of Season Seven because he is so busy writing.

Martin is currently working on the The Winds Of Winter, which was expected to be released next year but he has put no deadline on it.


For some reason when he says next year, I hear maybe two or three. Or ten. Or never.

“I did not start to write slower over the years,” he told the US Metro. “I was working on the first book for six year and four years on the second one. Fantasists who release their novels every year, do not offer books of large volume. These are not 1.5k pages like mine, but, for example, 500. In addition, I have not become younger. Age does not add enthusiasm.”


Here's the thing - the most obvious comparison in my mind is Erikson. Since Storm of Swords in 2000, GRRM has put out 2 books, Erikson has put out 11 just about Malazan, all as long as his, frankly all at least as good, if not better (it was really only GRRM's first three books in the series that were good) than anything that GRRM wrote. Heck just think about all the poetry that Erikson also includes within his novels.

GRRM is just lazy.

GonzoTheGreat
08-26-2017, 09:54 AM
I think that GRRM's problem is that he simply can't figure out where his story is going.

fionwe1987
08-26-2017, 03:26 PM
It's only a betrayal if you think that Cersei still has enough soldiers to be more useful alive than dead, and, even more importantly, that she could ever be trusted. Now, she does seem to oddly keep finding soldiers somewhere, but in reality she shouldn't be able to field much more than a few hundred boys and old men at this point (with the exception of however many men Euron has, though he is even less trustworthy than Cersei).
The oddness of the Lannister soldiers is definitely an issue, but hardly Sansa's issue, since she can only work with info she has, which probably shows her that Cersei had soldiers enough to make Danaerys unable to immediately succeed. You cannot blame a character in the story for believing an absurd aspect of her reality. Blame the writers for creating it.

And she clearly cannot be trusted. She needs killing. It clearly has to happen eventually. Book Sansa probably would have learned enough to recognize the need to be pragmatic. Show Sansa unfortunately still seems as naive as all her kin.

I dunno about that. I suspect if she'd been in that meeting in Dragonstone, she'd have told Tyrion he's a moron if he thinks Cersei would genuinely support them. She's shown her wariness for Cersei several times, this last episode not least by refusing to place herself in Cersei's power again.

Littlefinger at this point serves no useful purpose for the show. This would be the easiest way to write him out.
But hardly a satisfying or well done way to write him out. Why even have him leave Winterfell if all we need is a quick exit? Have him trip on ice and break his neck. Problem solved.

Again, maybe this is what happens, but I just don't see any such careful plotting to her actions. It seems like genuine panic. That could just be bad writing. Or bad acting.
Genuine panic made her send the sole guard she trusts to absolutely have her back? :rolleyes:

Rand al'Fain
08-26-2017, 09:14 PM
The oddness of the Lannister soldiers is definitely an issue, but hardly Sansa's issue, since she can only work with info she has, which probably shows her that Cersei had soldiers enough to make Danaerys unable to immediately succeed. You cannot blame a character in the story for believing an absurd aspect of her reality. Blame the writers for creating it.



I dunno about that. I suspect if she'd been in that meeting in Dragonstone, she'd have told Tyrion he's a moron if he thinks Cersei would genuinely support them. She's shown her wariness for Cersei several times, this last episode not least by refusing to place herself in Cersei's power again.


But hardly a satisfying or well done way to write him out. Why even have him leave Winterfell if all we need is a quick exit? Have him trip on ice and break his neck. Problem solved.


Genuine panic made her send the sole guard she trusts to absolutely have her back? :rolleyes:
And making sure Brienne wasn't put into such a compromising situation where she would have to step in between the Stark sisters. So, two birds with one stone.

I honestly don't get the Sansa hate post-season/book 1. She's grown and matured like the rest of her surviving family.

Kimon
08-26-2017, 10:45 PM
I honestly don't get the Sansa hate post-season/book 1. She's grown and matured like the rest of her surviving family.

In the books, yes.

My annoyance is with how the show has mangled her character development. The same is true with Jaime, and increasingly, as they've run out of GRRM material, with Tyrion as well. The show's writers did a good job when they were just adapting material from the books. Whenever they have had to make major changes (with one obvious caveat - the decision to excise Lady Stoneheart was an excellent choice), or to completely invent material, they have done a pretty mediocre job.

Kimon
08-27-2017, 09:37 PM
Pretty good episode, though I still maintain that the Littlefinger bit was poorly set up, and then that its denouement was clumsy. Nice call by Tyrion though thinking that his sister could ever be trusted. But hey, now she still doesn't support them, and instead the Night King has one of their dragons and just used it to ice-fire a breach in the Wall.

At least Jaime finally came to his senses and abandoned her. I suppose I'm somewhat glad that his character survived, as Nikolaj Coster-Waldau has done a good job of acting, but it would have been more poetic (not to mention strategically far more intelligent - why betray the alliance if you're going to let Jaime survive to immediately go and tell them all) had she told Zombie Gregor to kill him.

That frankly is how I would have ended the episode - have that scene with Cersei and Jaime after the Night King and his ice dragon, with the episode closing with Gregor executing Jaime.

connabard
08-27-2017, 10:32 PM
I'm glad LF is dead, but that was pretty clumsily written.

Honestly Tyrion ever assuming Cersei could be trusted is absolutely asinine, I'm also surprised Jaime thought she was being legitimate saying she'd march North.

I'm totally fine with the incest of Jon and Dany, but it was a little weird having that be the voice-over while they go to the bone zone. But whatever, I guess it's now officially double-confirmed, and same with him not being a bastard.

I wonder if that will put a strain on their relationship; will Dany be afraid he'll try and take the throne?

Also, with only 5 eps for the last season, I imagine it's just going to be huge battle set pieces back-to-back-to-back for nearly the whole season.

Overall, I'm pretty fine with this ep, and I liked them using that song from last finale, Light of the Seven, in this episode again.

EDIT: Actually, I'm thinking Jon will use the revelation of his heritage to get the Northern Lords on board with supporting Dany, "I've been a Targaryen this whole time and you named me King..." blah blah blah

Rand al'Fain
08-27-2017, 11:13 PM
Well, Littlefinger finally got his due, with a bit of sisterly bonding over it.

Jon and Dany... Yeah, saw that coming a mile away, and HOPEFULLY the fan theories that keep popping up about Jon being a bastard, or still somehow Ned's bastard, or someone elses kid stop.

Probably not though.

Jaime finally left Cersei. That's a plus.

rand
08-28-2017, 12:07 AM
I'm totally fine with the incest of Jon and Dany, but it was a little weird having that be the voice-over while they go to the bone zone.
Not to mention Tyrion listening at the door. Hell, Bran was probably watching it too.

Overall I liked it. Like I said before, the whole Arya vs Sansa thing was just...weird. If they knew LF was playing them the whole time, why wait months (or whatever) to kill him?

Rhaegar looked too much like Viserys, IMO.

fionwe1987
08-28-2017, 01:25 AM
And making sure Brienne wasn't put into such a compromising situation where she would have to step in between the Stark sisters. So, two birds with one stone.

I honestly don't get the Sansa hate post-season/book 1. She's grown and matured like the rest of her surviving family.

Agreed. Kimon is right that show Sansa has had less character development than book Sansa, whose interactions with Joffrey and Cersei were fantastically written, and who, as Alayne, is turning into a very interesting PoV character. That said, the finale will probably put to rest a lot of the Sansa-hate.

Also, is it just me or are they setting up the Arya-Sansa duo as the only ones capable of reading Cersei and killing her? Cersei played Tyrion and his love for his family like a pro, whereas Sansa and Arya have really the least trust for Cersei. What with Arya basically saying she'd be Sansa's assassin, and Sansa probably having the wisest reaction to Cersei's call for a meeting in King's Landing, I think these two are best placed to finish her off, finally.

I, too, found the whole Littlefinger plot meaningless. Did the girls know already? Seems that way, with the dagger changing hands so often. That has to indicate plotting behind the scenes, right? But why did Sansa wait so long? It really makes very little sense.

Also, why the heck did Dany bring Rhaegal along? If she'd left him behind, Cersei would have given it no thought. By bringing in both her surviving dragons, she makes the absence of the third stand out sharply. Yet another really dumb move.

On the whole, though, this was a decent episode. Especially compared to last week's train wreck.

DahLliA
08-28-2017, 08:26 AM
Well. Seems like the leaks that came out a year or so ago was right all along.

The only difference I can see is that the leaks said LF would be killed in episode 5 instead of the finale. Plus IIRC they didn't mention the Golden Company.

Still. Good final episode to a mediocre at best season.
Way too rushed and way too little focus on details.

Feels like they had a checklist of where people needed to be for the next season and then just went down one by one and figured out how to get them there.

And yeah. Love how the whole "convincing Cersei"-plan ended up giving the Night King the means to tear down the wall. Morale of the story is: stop being an honorable knobhead and just use your goddamn dragons to burn your enemies.

GonzoTheGreat
08-28-2017, 08:52 AM
Morale of the story is: stop being an honorable knobhead and just use your goddamn dragons to burn your enemies.
Almost as if the Mad King had been reasonable after all, isn't it?

Rand al'Fain
08-28-2017, 01:42 PM
Almost as if the Mad King had been reasonable after all, isn't it?

No. Nothing reasonable about wanting to torch all of King's Landing with Wild Fire.

DahLliA
08-28-2017, 03:43 PM
No. Nothing reasonable about wanting to torch all of King's Landing with Wild Fire.

Yeah. I mean. Cersei did that and she's not very reasonable :p

rand
08-29-2017, 01:19 AM
A few more things...

Regarding Bran, it's kind of odd that he:

A) Basically told Meera not to let the door slam on the way out, then greets Sam like a long lost brother.
B) For some reason apparently tells no one about Jon's ancestry, until Sam appears and suddenly Bran's practically giggling with excitement to get the story out.


How did Cersei and Euron plan Euron's secret mission to get the Golden Company? I mean, if they didn't know about Jon's wight, did they just sort of have a vague plan that Euron would abandon Cersei mid-council and and hope no one would find it too suspicious? Also, are they really gonna introduce the Golden Company (and presumably new characters) in the final six episodes? Seems way too late to be doing that.

Qyburn's scorpions might be the only way to defeat zombie Viserion now, assuming they can make a giant dragonglass arrow. Unless fire will kill it now, but that seems unlikely. Also, what does an ice dragon breathe? If its just blue fire, wouldn't that be dangerous to the White Walkers/wights? Not to mention it wouldn't really be an "ice" dragon. But if it is breathing ice or whatever, that would hardly damage a giant wall made of ice...

Overall I think I liked this season probably more than most, but it was still a bit disappointing. It would have greatly benefited from being 10 episodes long like all the others, and I'm genuinely worried now that the final season's six episodes will feel even more rushed. At this point I have to wonder if the show runners are getting tired of GoT and ready to move on to their new Confederate thing, because I honestly can't understand why they feel like shorter seasons are better at this point.



One final thing. This scene from Dany's trip to the House of the Undying takes on new meaning:

Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother's hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. "Aegon," he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. "What better name for a king?"
"Will you make a song for him?" the woman asked.
"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He looked up when he said it, and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads." He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.

So first of all, I guess Rhaegar does look almost exactly like Viserys, so they got that right in the finale.

This has to be Jon and Lyanna, and not Aegon and Elia as previously thought, right? I mean, the name Aegon made it pretty obvious this was...well, Aegon. Until we found out Rhaegar named another one of his kids Aegon Targaryen as well (for some reason??). Rhaegar wasn't present for the birth in the show, but he may have been in the books...and this is a vision anyway, and not necessarily a real life scene.

If this is Jon, and Rhaegar knows there are now two heads of the dragon (ie two parts of the three in the prince that was promised prophecy) accounted for, this means:
A) He also already knows that Dany is one of the three parts. He's not counting his own children, at least, as he would have three at this point. Plus he's staring at her when he says it.
B) Viserys apparently isn't considered one for whatever reason.
C) The third "head" is still out there. This is presumably Tyrion, or possibly Bran...this would probably be a book-only thing anyway, as this prophecy hasn't really been mentioned on the show that I remember, and it would seem far too late to reveal that Tyrion is also a secret Targaryen.

Granted all this has been pretty much guessed already, but the finale seems to confirm this scene is about Jon, and that in turn confirms that Jon and Dany are the two heads of the dragon Rhaegar is talking about.

GonzoTheGreat
08-29-2017, 04:01 AM
Also, what does an ice dragon breathe? If its just blue fire, wouldn't that be dangerous to the White Walkers/wights? Not to mention it wouldn't really be an "ice" dragon. But if it is breathing ice or whatever, that would hardly damage a giant wall made of ice...
Liquid Nitrogen. That cools the outer parts of the ice wall so much that it shrinks, but the inner part doesn't (yet), so there suddenly is an enormous amount of stress in the ice, and it all shatters.
Could also be liquid Helium, with a really powerful dragon, but being a giant Helium balloon might cause aerodynamical problems which would impede landing and such. On the other hand, liquid Helium is a superfluid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superfluid_helium-4), which would provide for some really cool side benefits in its use as a weapon.

fionwe1987
08-29-2017, 05:27 AM
This has to be Jon and Lyanna, and not Aegon and Elia as previously thought, right?

Uhhh... no. Lyanna died in childbirth, well after Rhaegar's death. Rhaegar wasn't around for Jon's birth. This is definitely Elia, and the Aegon mentioned here is the first Aegon, Rhaegar's elder son.

I mean, the name Aegon made it pretty obvious this was...well, Aegon. Until we found out Rhaegar named another one of his kids Aegon Targaryen as well (for some reason??). Rhaegar wasn't present for the birth in the show, but he may have been in the books...and this is a vision anyway, and not necessarily a real life scene.

Lyanna named her child Aegon. At this point she had probably heard from the Kingsguard that Rhagar's older son had been killed. And I'm pretty sure Jon's name won't be Aegon in the books, since the original Aegon is still alive, or someone brought up a child that looks like a Targ and told him he was that Aegon. Jon will probably have been named Jahaerys, or some male version of Visenya, but not Viserys, perhaps? Or maybe Rhaegar was hoping for a second girl child to complete the triumvirate, and had no name prepared, and neither did Lyanna, and in the book Jon will be Jon, just Targaryen, instead of Snow.

If this is Jon, and Rhaegar knows there are now two heads of the dragon (ie two parts of the three in the prince that was promised prophecy) accounted for, this means:
A) He also already knows that Dany is one of the three parts. He's not counting his own children, at least, as he would have three at this point. Plus he's staring at her when he says it.
Rhaegar was not alive when Dany was born. He was probably not even alive when she was conceived, as the Rebels were already on their way to victory when this happened, and Rhaella spent nine months holed up in Dragonstone before Danaerys was born,and this was after most of the Rebellion was done. Rhaegar staring at her could be a sign of his prophetic vision, but he may be mistaking her for his "third" perhaps?

B) Viserys apparently isn't considered one for whatever reason.
Because Rhaegar mistakenly thought that all three Daragon riders would be his children.

C) The third "head" is still out there. This is presumably Tyrion, or possibly Bran...this would probably be a book-only thing anyway, as this prophecy hasn't really been mentioned on the show that I remember, and it would seem far too late to reveal that Tyrion is also a secret Targaryen.

Tyrion is a possibility. Aegon, if he proves to be real, could be one, but this is low probability. Bran may be able to warg into one, but I doubt he'd ever ride one.

Granted all this has been pretty much guessed already, but the finale seems to confirm this scene is about Jon, and that in turn confirms that Jon and Dany are the two heads of the dragon Rhaegar is talking about.
The scene is definitely not about Jon, as Rhaegar was long dead when Jon was born. That said, nothing says that Rhaegar's second interpretation of the Prophesy was correct, either. He was mistaken once, when he assumed he was the Prince that was Promised. He then thought it would be one of his kids, specifically Aegon, and thought whoever Lyanna carried would be the third rider. Maester Aemon thinks Rhaegar was fully wrong, and Danaerys was the Prince that was Promised, but he didn't know Jon was a Targ. Perhaps Rhaegar was right and his son Jon is the one. Or perhaps Danaerys is. Or perhaps there's a prince and princess. Who knows. But Rhaegar knew nothing of Danaerys, except that Rhaella was pregnant. And Rhaella had had more miscarriages than not, so I doubt he felt she would definitely have a child, let alone that she would carry not just a Dragonrider but the woman who would birth three Dragons.

Rand al'Fain
08-29-2017, 10:33 PM
So, all things considered, the North won't have much time to really set up camp with the Wall breached and a massive army of wights led by the Night King on top of a dead dragon coming (I've already seen people asking if this meant the Night King was a Targaryen... Yeah).

That said; if they had time, how do you think little Lyanna Mormont would react to Dany?

connabard
08-29-2017, 11:52 PM
I'm more curious to see Jorah and Lyanna interact

Davian93
08-30-2017, 09:00 AM
There's pretty much zero point to even predict how "something would be in the book" since that book will never been finished. GRRM is 68 years old, lazy as lazy can be, has clearly written himself into a corner and has no way to get out of it and he's literally written one book in 12 years now...a book that was supposedly 80% finished when he published Feast in 2005.

DahLliA
08-30-2017, 03:29 PM
Hah. The Arya-Sansa drama might've been even worse than it seemed: http://io9.gizmodo.com/game-of-thrones-cut-a-scene-that-wouldve-explained-that-1798622658

Davian93
08-30-2017, 06:52 PM
Hah. The Arya-Sansa drama might've been even worse than it seemed: http://io9.gizmodo.com/game-of-thrones-cut-a-scene-that-wouldve-explained-that-1798622658

Wow...that's awful. It does fall right in with Sansa being the dumbest person on the planet of course but still. That is awful awful writing.

Rand al'Fain
08-30-2017, 07:35 PM
Wow...that's awful. It does fall right in with Sansa being the dumbest person on the planet of course but still. That is awful awful writing.

Wow. Yeah.

fionwe1987
08-30-2017, 07:44 PM
Wow...that's awful. It does fall right in with Sansa being the dumbest person on the planet of course but still. That is awful awful writing.

I don't see how the current setup makes Sansa any less dumb, and Arya even dumber.

Davian93
08-30-2017, 08:08 PM
I don't see how the current setup makes Sansa any less dumb, and Arya even dumber.

At least we could have pretended that they were playing him from the start without knowing this. This makes it even dumber.

Rand al'Fain
08-31-2017, 11:29 AM
At least we could have pretended that they were playing him from the start without knowing this. This makes it even dumber.

I honestly have to ask what the writers were thinking when they wrote that scene, let alone filmed it.

Like Stannis's butchered character, do they hate the character of Sansa so much as to make her completely daff? Because at least without that scene, people can easily speculate that Sansa finally set up Baelish and turned the tables on him, using his own game.

fionwe1987
08-31-2017, 01:51 PM
I swear. They left all these scenes in where Sansa shows her distrust of LF. They should obviously have had her scheming from the beginning, and instead of having those obviously pointless fights between her and Arya, shown her to be working with Yohn Royce and others. If you want to pretend she's taken in, fine. Just have her meet them, say 'i have a problem regarding my sister", then cut away. Let the audience assume she's scheming against Arya, then reveal later that she was actually scheming against LF.

Why they didn't do something so simple is beyond me.

Kimon
08-31-2017, 02:31 PM
I swear. They left all these scenes in where Sansa shows her distrust of LF. They should obviously have had her scheming from the beginning, and instead of having those obviously pointless fights between her and Arya, shown her to be working with Yohn Royce and others. If you want to pretend she's taken in, fine. Just have her meet them, say 'i have a problem regarding my sister", then cut away. Let the audience assume she's scheming against Arya, then reveal later that she was actually scheming against LF.

Why they didn't do something so simple is beyond me.

If nothing else, they should have added a short soliloquy that immediately followed her scene with Littlefinger, the one where he was trying to get her to imagine the worst motivations for Arya's actions. They could have either used it to finally make her do the same openly with regards to Littlefinger, or, if they wanted to make her seem slightly more perceptive, just use it to have her quietly comment to herself after he left the room something along the lines of "Just how stupid do you think I am?".

I think this was the unfortunate result of their cost-saving decision to have Sansa take the place of the fake-Arya as Ramsay's wife. Much of Sansa's growth/training took place in the Vale, scenes that were curtailed so that they could combine her plot with Ramsay's. It meant that she had to continue playing the brainless damsel in distress instead of training with Littlefinger to become the devious, Machiavellian politician in parallel to her sister's assassin training.