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Kimon
10-02-2017, 08:52 AM
Will we never do the sensible thing and excise the 2nd Amendment?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41471242

A man has opened fire on concertgoers in Las Vegas, killing more than 50 people. Another 406 were taken to hospital.
The suspected gunman shot himself dead, say police.
What happened?
Some 22,000 people were attending a country music festival late on Sunday night in the open air by the Las Vegas strip.
The first shots rang out shortly after 22:00 local time (05:00 GMT).
The gunman fired from the 32nd floor of the Mandalay Bay Hotel before shooting himself dead. Earlier reports said he was killed by police.
Witnesses say hundreds of shots were fired and the sound of automatic gunfire was heard.

Terez
10-02-2017, 09:27 AM
Will we never do the sensible thing and excise the 2nd Amendment?
Is that really sensible though? It's definitely worded badly, but beyond that I'm not sure it should be "excised".

Kind of surprised Ivhon deleted his thread. Was pretty bitter I guess but for all that probably more sensible.

GonzoTheGreat
10-02-2017, 09:37 AM
Will we never do the sensible thing and excise the 2nd Amendment?
Based what I've understood from previous debates on gun control, one should wait for at least half a year after the last shooting before trying to hold a debate on this. Right at this moment, tempers are flaring, and that means that emotions are all that people listen to.
Now, one could argue that there never is a good time to discuss pointless and unnecessary violence, so one might as well do that now. But apparently (it took me a while to get this too), that is not an acceptable approach.

Of course, actually adhering to the text of the 2nd (with that "well regulated militia" bit as more than empty blather) could already do loads of good. Surprisingly enough, though, this is one area where conservatives aren't interested in strict literalism.

Ivhon
10-02-2017, 09:43 AM
Is that really sensible though? It's definitely worded badly, but beyond that I'm not sure it should be "excised".

Kind of surprised Ivhon deleted his thread. Was pretty bitter I guess but for all that probably more sensible.

I deleted it a) because I'm trying to tone down the bitterness. Some. and b) because at the time I wrote it, the whiteness of the mass-murdering terrorist with a gun had not been confirmed. I had made an assumption. Which of course was born out, but still.

Brita
10-02-2017, 09:44 AM
I can honestly say I just feel a numb detachment right now. And that is awful.

Like the kind of emotional severing that happens when you watch a loved one keep doing drugs, even after several overdoses.

A form of self preservation because it is getting too hard to care so much about a country that just seems unable to help itself in any way.

Kimon
10-02-2017, 09:46 AM
Is that really sensible though? It's definitely worded badly, but beyond that I'm not sure it should be "excised".

Kind of surprised Ivhon deleted his thread. Was pretty bitter I guess but for all that probably more sensible.

Not sure why you're taking issue. Even if we did excise the 2nd Amendment at the federal level (which certainly seems impossible, but certainly not insensible), that would still leave it open to individual action at the state and local level. Indeed it is the vague wording of the 2nd Amendment that has created so much of the difficulty in providing gun control at present at the state and local level, areas which once allowed far more nuanced degrees of interpretation from community to community prior to Scalia's reinterpretation of the 2nd Amendment rendered it akin to the 11th Commandment in the eyes of republicans.

Rand al'Fain
10-02-2017, 09:50 AM
Geez. More than 50 dead and 400 wounded.

Brita
10-02-2017, 10:54 AM
It's only going to go up. Currently 58 Dead, 515 Injured.

Absolutely horrific.

ShadowbaneX
10-02-2017, 01:53 PM
Is that really sensible though? It's definitely worded badly, but beyond that I'm not sure it should be "excised".

I'll answer that with a question: if it was "excised" would those 59 people be dead and 515 still be injured?

Weird Harold
10-02-2017, 02:00 PM
I'll answer that with a question: if it was "excised" would those 59 people be dead and 515 still be injured?

Since it is highly unlikely that the fully automatic weapon used last night was legal and registered, there would be no difference if more laws had been passed for the shooter to ignore.

Kimon
10-02-2017, 02:30 PM
Since it is highly unlikely that the fully automatic weapon used last night was legal and registered, there would be no difference if more laws had been passed for the shooter to ignore.

Doesn't seem like there has been a clear statement yet on whether his rifles were fully automatic (hence illegal), or legally purchased semi-automatics that had been converted into basically automatic using legally purchased accessories.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/oct/02/las-vegas-suspect-stephen-paddock-gun-semi-automatic

Law enforcement officials have yet to confirm what kind of firearms Stephen Paddock used to shoot from his Mandalay Bay hotel room into a crowd of people at a country music festival in Las Vegas, killing at least 58 people, though early reports suggest he had as many as 10 guns, including some rifles.

The rapid pace of the gunfire suggested that the shooter was using either a fully automatic weapon, tightly restricted under US law, or that he had attached a device to a semi-automatic gun to make it fire more continuously, said Massad Ayoob, a firearms expert, instructor and author.

“It’s faster than almost any human being is going to be able to pull a trigger on a semi-automatic,” Ayoob said.

Fully automatic weapons, which fire multiple rounds of ammunition from a single pull of the trigger, are strictly regulated, taxed and tracked under US law. This makes them expensive collectors’ items, and comparatively rarely used in crimes. Semi-automatic rifles, in contrast, which fire only one round of ammunition with each pull of the trigger, are widely available.

Unlike some states, Nevada, which has laws generally friendly to gun owners, does not ban the sale of “assault weapons” – semi-automatic civilian guns built to resemble military weapons.

From listening to the footage of the attack, Ayoob said that the gunshots “did not sound as consistent” as he would typically expect from a fully automatic M-16 or AK-47. “The pace of fire is a little bit erratic. At one point it’s slower than it is at another point.”

Paddock could have used a Hellfire or a bump-fire device, which attach to normal semi-automatic rifles and allow them to fire more rapidly, Ayoob said. These devices are legal, but rarely used by serious shooters, he said.

“It’s hard to shoot accurately with them, and serious shooters want accuracy,” he said. He called them “not terribly popular” and “something a gun geek would want”.

Our country's worship of guns both confuses and disgusts me.

ShadowbaneX
10-02-2017, 03:24 PM
Since it is highly unlikely that the fully automatic weapon used last night was legal and registered, there would be no difference if more laws had been passed for the shooter to ignore.

Reports saying 20 weapons one of which has been converted to full automatic fire. Doesn't say if the AK's or AR's were full auto or semi-automatic, but with that many I'm going to assume many were purchased legally.

On the other hand the Onion gets to up date this article (http://www.theonion.com/article/no-way-prevent-says-only-nation-where-regularly-ha-57086) again. I guess that's something.

yks 6nnetu hing
10-03-2017, 02:12 AM
bitter, disgusted and sad.

That being said, America: get your shit together and stop hogging "horrible news" headlines.

We've got the Catalan vote to process, the Brexit to manage, the next goddamn real estate bubble to avoid, convince people to go at least flexitarian (did you see that recalculation of the cattle-related methane gas effects on Global Warming? *shudder*), get Brazilians to understand that killing tribes in the Amazon is a Bad Thing,figure out how come North Korea is such good friends with Egypt, and figure out why is Putin so quiet about all of the above, what is he up to...

GonzoTheGreat
10-03-2017, 03:13 AM
We've got the Catalan vote to process, ...
Why not leave that one to Angela Merkel?

... the Brexit to manage, ...
I don't think anyone (not even Merkel) could manage that particular mess. The core issue there is deliberate ignorance, and managing that is fundamentally impossible.

... the next goddamn real estate bubble to avoid, ...
It is slightly more rational than Tulip Mania, which started off this bubble habit centuries ago.

... figure out how come North Korea is such good friends with Egypt, ...
Who wouldn't want to be friends with either?

... and figure out why is Putin so quiet about all of the above, what is he up to...
He is plotting to introduce gay marriage into China, now that he has managed to destroy the whole of the West with it. Isn't that obvious?

Davian93
10-04-2017, 09:01 AM
If a bunch of little kids dying didn't change the gun control debate, I doubt a few score concert goers dying will.

As sad as that is.

Brexit is an absolute disaster and May will likely be gone as PM before much longer due to her idiocy. Boris will be gone as Foreign Secretary too...and he seemingly wants to be gone from that role right now.

Catalonia is acting selfishly and stupidly and they broke a bunch of laws. On the other hand, Spain's crackdown on the referendum was just as stupid.

Oh and its sad that Tom Petty died.


Did I miss anything else during my two weeks on holiday in Scotland?

GonzoTheGreat
10-04-2017, 09:23 AM
Did I miss anything else during my two weeks on holiday in Scotland?
Trump tweeted.

Kimon
10-04-2017, 11:56 AM
If a bunch of little kids dying didn't change the gun control debate, I doubt a few score concert goers dying will.

As sad as that is.

Brexit is an absolute disaster and May will likely be gone as PM before much longer due to her idiocy. Boris will be gone as Foreign Secretary too...and he seemingly wants to be gone from that role right now.

Catalonia is acting selfishly and stupidly and they broke a bunch of laws. On the other hand, Spain's crackdown on the referendum was just as stupid.

Oh and its sad that Tom Petty died.


Did I miss anything else during my two weeks on holiday in Scotland?

Admittedly, accomplishing anything, no matter how sensible, does seem impossible at present with gun control, but one still can’t help but think that there are some basic concessions that even hardened gun worshippers should agree to - like making accessories that convert legal semi-automatics into fully automatics should be illegal, and that every legal gun purchase must be registered, so that in instances where an individual amasses, as this man did, 47 guns, the FBI should kick down his door and arrest him upon an overwhelming presumption of ill-intent.

It’s not like I’m asking that we just make all guns illegal and melt them all down. I mean that would obviously be the logical and prudent thing to do, but ‘Merica clearly isn’t a land that values logic or prudence.

As for Catalonia, this situation seems, at least to me, to have gone far beyond selfish pique. Spain has acted so egregiously heavy-handed, that I would have to imagine that even many who would have otherwise opposed secession, now are fed up with Spain because of how abusive and violent the attempt to supress the referendum was. Compare that to how Britain handled the secession movement with Scotland, or how Canada handled their issues in the past with Quebec. What Spain is doing seems reminiscent, indeed far worse, than the way that China has been cracking down on Hong Kong. Admittedly, we acted pretty forcibly to stop South Carolina and the rest of the rebels ourselves once upon a time, but Spain hasn’t the same noble justification that we had. And let’s be blunt if South Carolina and the rest of the Confederacy asked to leave again, I’d gleefully celebrate their departure. And I doubt that I would be alone in that sentiment.

Spain just seems intent on ensuring that Catalonia appears to the whole world the victim, and that they seem like the abusive drunken pos that deserves to be served with the divorce papers.

GonzoTheGreat
10-04-2017, 12:25 PM
One of the things Spain has been stressing is that if Catalonia becomes independent, it wouldn't be a EU member. Maybe Theresa May would be willing to start a trade community with Catalonia?

ShadowbaneX
10-04-2017, 02:48 PM
Did I miss anything else during my two weeks on holiday in Scotland?

Check here (http://whatthefuckjusthappenedtoday.com).

Davian93
10-05-2017, 08:58 AM
Spain has suspended Catalonia's autonomous parliament...that'll solve the issue, right?

Nobody suspects the Spanish Civil War...

Kimon
10-05-2017, 01:38 PM
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41506613

Congress' most powerful Republican says lawmakers should examine "bump-stocks", a rapid-fire accessory used by the gunman in Sunday's Las Vegas massacre.
House of Representatives Speaker Paul Ryan told a radio talk show: "Clearly that's something we need to look into."
Texas Senator John Cornyn - the number two Republican in the Senate - has called for hearings into the devices.


It appears a move to ban bump-stock devices is picking up steam in Congress. Some normally staunch gun-control opponents seem willing to consider new legislation. The NRA, which opposes just about any new regulations, has gone silent.
That's going to change soon.
The challenge for gun rights supporters is a bump-stock ban opens the door for a new debate about where to draw the line over limiting a firearm's lethality. For decades it's been at how many bullets can be fired with one trigger pull.
Bump-stocks blur that line. Can you outlaw a device that helps squeeze off rounds more quickly but not think about prohibiting quick-change magazines or limiting their sizes? Or banning pistol grips, which make firing easier?
It won't take many Republicans, with the NRA looking over their shoulder, to grind the process to a halt.


Hopefully at least Bernie won’t side with the enemy again this time, but renegade dems aside, trusting any republicans seems insane.

Davian93
10-05-2017, 03:44 PM
So much for the Iran deal...https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/politics/trump-plans-to-declare-that-iran-nuclear-deal-is-not-in-the-national-interest/2017/10/05/825c916e-a9e3-11e7-b3aa-c0e2e1d41e38_story.html?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link&ICID=ref_fark

What a fucking idiot.

Kimon
10-05-2017, 04:05 PM
So much for the Iran deal...https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/politics/trump-plans-to-declare-that-iran-nuclear-deal-is-not-in-the-national-interest/2017/10/05/825c916e-a9e3-11e7-b3aa-c0e2e1d41e38_story.html?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link&ICID=ref_fark

What a fucking idiot.

Much like with the cognitive dissonance between Trump and Tillerson on North Korea, the contrast between Trump and Mattis on Iran is very odd. Either his lieutenants are trying to publicly nudge/shame him into doing the right thing, or this is a excruciatingly clumsy version of the old good cop/bad cop routine.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/03/world/middleeast/mattis-iran-deal-trump.html

Here's hoping that this is just Trump's way of trying to back Iran into a corner and agree to some last second concessions, but this sort of diplomatic brinkmanship is both embarrassing and dangerously stupid. We talk a lot (heck even Corker recently said as much) about how perhaps Mattis and Kelly are the only thing standing between us and Trump running completely amok, but if Mattis can't stop Trump from reneging on this deal then it becomes increasingly difficult to see how our Praetorian Guardsmen are having any discernible effect, and if the only reason that they are sticking around is simply because Trump knows that no one else would agree to take any of these jobs.

yks 6nnetu hing
10-06-2017, 01:51 AM
One of the things Spain has been stressing is that if Catalonia becomes independent, it wouldn't be a EU member. Maybe Theresa May would be willing to start a trade community with Catalonia?

That's not necessarily automatically the case. See the seccession of Greenland and Denmark, where Greenland CHOSE to step out of the EU while Demark stayed in. Now, granted, I don't know the legal background of all of that back then, and the laws have probably changed since then but I imagine that if, say, Scotland, the Basque country or Catalonia were to become independant and would want to stay/join in the EU, they'd get a "fast track" at least, seeing as a lot of the rules and regulations that aspiring members must implement are already in place.

GonzoTheGreat
10-06-2017, 04:12 AM
Yes, and they would also get to run the hurdle of "no EU vetoes their application". While Scotland could easy leap that one after May has left, it seems less certain that Catalonia could avoid a Spanish veto.
So, while technically it is not automatically a problem, in reality, unless Spain suddenly becomes reasonable and nice on this subject, it is a problem nonetheless.

Davian93
10-06-2017, 08:52 AM
That's not necessarily automatically the case. See the seccession of Greenland and Denmark, where Greenland CHOSE to step out of the EU while Demark stayed in. Now, granted, I don't know the legal background of all of that back then, and the laws have probably changed since then but I imagine that if, say, Scotland, the Basque country or Catalonia were to become independant and would want to stay/join in the EU, they'd get a "fast track" at least, seeing as a lot of the rules and regulations that aspiring members must implement are already in place.

One option for Scotland would at least be to try to have a relationship with the EU similar to Norway or Iceland's...where they're in the free market even if they're not officially in the EU as members of the EFTA.

Scotland seems like it'd lose a ton more than it'd gain if it left the UK and EU though. When your economy relies on dwindling oil reserves, whisky and promiscuous sheep, you might want to stay with the wealthier part of your country instead of going it alone.

Kimon
10-06-2017, 11:37 AM
One option for Scotland would at least be to try to have a relationship with the EU similar to Norway or Iceland's...where they're in the free market even if they're not officially in the EU as members of the EFTA.

Scotland seems like it'd lose a ton more than it'd gain if it left the UK and EU though. When your economy relies on dwindling oil reserves, whisky and promiscuous sheep, you might want to stay with the wealthier part of your country instead of going it alone.

Seems like the only comparable situation that the EU has had to undergo in the past was with Greenland, due to their separation from Denmark. But Greenland’s situation was perhaps a bit more like England’s than like Scotland’s or Catalonia, as Greenland wanted out (not sure if that was a major instigator for their desire to break away from Denmark, or just ancillary). Much like Britain though, Catalonia may be screwed by Spain and the EU if they actually secede from Spain, and they already seem to be making Catalon-based banks nervous in the same way that is being seen with London-based banks post-Brexit.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/05/catalonia-political-turmoil-prompting-firms-to-consider-relocating-banks-spain-eu-independence

Davian93
10-06-2017, 01:48 PM
Catalonia's entire push for independence is incredibly illogical...to the point where I guarantee that its mainly being pushed/promulgated by hostile foreign elements to help weaken yet another EU/NATO country. Tis truly a mystery as to who would benefit the most from the weakening of democracies in the USA, UK, Germany, France and Spain. I can't think of a single nation-state that would want to see something like that happen.

Kimon
10-06-2017, 03:40 PM
Catalonia's entire push for independence is incredibly illogical...to the point where I guarantee that its mainly being pushed/promulgated by hostile foreign elements to help weaken yet another EU/NATO country. Tis truly a mystery as to who would benefit the most from the weakening of democracies in the USA, UK, Germany, France and Spain. I can't think of a single nation-state that would want to see something like that happen.

Wikileaks and the Russians certainly seem to be supporting and fomenting the secessionists, but they wouldn't be successful in catalyzing these sentiments without pre-existing tensions. Catalan is in many ways as distinct from Spanish as is Italian. They weren't exactly treated well by Franco, nor have they been treated well by the current govt in Madrid, nor even by the presumably mostly figurehead king of Spain. Nonetheless, Catalonia would as a whole almost certainly be better off economically by remaining in Spain (even considering that at present they are by far the most economically vibrant region within Spain - but gaining independence would open themselves to myriad new expenses even if they somehow manage to stay in the EU or ECC) than separate even if they managed to stay in the EU. Had Spain treated this referendum more similarly to how Britain did the vote concerning Scottish independence, this situation would not be becoming so dire.

Whenever Assange gets involved one should automatically become suspicious, but in this case, Madrid seems more to blame than Moscow.

ShadowbaneX
10-06-2017, 05:12 PM
Catalonia's entire push for independence is incredibly illogical...to the point where I guarantee that its mainly being pushed/promulgated by hostile foreign elements to help weaken yet another EU/NATO country. Tis truly a mystery as to who would benefit the most from the weakening of democracies in the USA, UK, Germany, France and Spain. I can't think of a single nation-state that would want to see something like that happen.

Interesting, although, it might be a little McCarthy-ist. I wouldn't it put it past someone to do that sorta crap, or at least work on the existing sentiments. You see similar things in Texas & Alberta. Oil seems to be a common element, or at least the money that comes with the oil. The whole "why are we paying for your poor asses?" mentality.

GonzoTheGreat
10-07-2017, 03:34 AM
Catalonia's entire push for independence is incredibly illogical...to the point where I guarantee that its mainly being pushed/promulgated by hostile foreign elements to help weaken yet another EU/NATO country. Tis truly a mystery as to who would benefit the most from the weakening of democracies in the USA, UK, Germany, France and Spain. I can't think of a single nation-state that would want to see something like that happen.
It is indeed quite difficult to think of such a nation-state when one takes into account that the drive towards independence from Spain dates back to (at least) the 17th century, and in a real way even before that. Off hand, the only nation that I can think of that has remained sufficiently united during all that time is Japan. But why would they be trying to disrupt Europe?

Rand al'Fain
10-07-2017, 10:22 AM
It is indeed quite difficult to think of such a nation-state when one takes into account that the drive towards independence from Spain dates back to (at least) the 17th century, and in a real way even before that. Off hand, the only nation that I can think of that has remained sufficiently united during all that time is Japan. But why would they be trying to disrupt Europe?

Japan hasn't been united since the 17th century. They had at least 2 massive civil wars (though the first one was a series of civil wars).

Sengoku Jidai (1467-1603) where famous people like Nobunaga Oda, Miyamoto Musashi, and Tokugawa Ieyasu came about. The latter of whom finally brought peace to Japan for the next 2 centuries.

Then we have the Boshin War of 1868-1869, where the isolationists and supporters of the Shogunate fought against the Imperial Supporters and those willing to open their borders.

So, yeah. Even Japan has had internal conflicts since then.

Kimon
10-07-2017, 10:49 AM
Japan hasn't been united since the 17th century. They had at least 2 massive civil wars (though the first one was a series of civil wars).

Sengoku Jidai (1467-1603) where famous people like Nobunaga Oda, Miyamoto Musashi, and Tokugawa Ieyasu came about. The latter of whom finally brought peace to Japan for the next 2 centuries.

Then we have the Boshin War of 1868-1869, where the isolationists and supporters of the Shogunate fought against the Imperial Supporters and those willing to open their borders.

So, yeah. Even Japan has had internal conflicts since then.

Japan has had periods of struggle between rival daimyo (i.e. the Sengoku Period), but even then they were still homogeneous culturally and linguistically (excepting for the Ainu on Hokkaido, but they were isolated and marginalized). So even when there was political disunity they still thought of themselves as one uniform Yamato culture. And even during periods when the emperors were little more than figureheads, they still were a continuous line going back at least 1500 years.

GonzoTheGreat
10-07-2017, 10:54 AM
That seems to leave Andorra, which, while in a better position geographically than Japan is, seems to be a bit small for such machinations.

yks 6nnetu hing
10-09-2017, 01:42 AM
One option for Scotland would at least be to try to have a relationship with the EU similar to Norway or Iceland's...where they're in the free market even if they're not officially in the EU as members of the EFTA.

Scotland seems like it'd lose a ton more than it'd gain if it left the UK and EU though. When your economy relies on dwindling oil reserves, whisky and promiscuous sheep, you might want to stay with the wealthier part of your country instead of going it alone.

Renewables (especially wind) and financial services are very strong there too. Arguably it might be easier for London-based financial institutions to move their headquarters to Edinburgh or Glasgow in order to stay in the EU, rather than Berlin, Paris, Brussels, Amsterdam, Vienna, Copenhagen or Stockholm (let's face it, they're not gonna go to Dublin because of stupid history)

Daekyras
10-09-2017, 04:06 AM
One option for Scotland would at least be to try to have a relationship with the EU similar to Norway or Iceland's...where they're in the free market even if they're not officially in the EU as members of the EFTA.

Scotland seems like it'd lose a ton more than it'd gain if it left the UK and EU though. When your economy relies on dwindling oil reserves, whisky and promiscuous sheep, you might want to stay with the wealthier part of your country instead of going it alone.

Scotland want to leave the UK because they want to stay in the EU.

They cant have both.

Hope you had a good time there.

Davian93
10-09-2017, 07:39 PM
Scotland want to leave the UK because they want to stay in the EU.

They cant have both.

Hope you had a good time there.

Oh, I did. The scenery was spectacular. To be fair, I did like Ireland's culture, food and music scene far more when we're comparing Gaelic countries but both Scotland and Ireland are great places to visit in general. We also spent a good bit of time in London & Surrey and that was enjoyable too.

I said "leave the EU" too because they've already said that Scotland wouldn't be automatically admitted to the EU if they seceded from the UK so it seems that any independence push at this point would just exacerbate the situation they are already dealing with under Brexit.

GonzoTheGreat
10-10-2017, 02:41 AM
Maybe Scotland could kick England out of the UK and then stay in the EU. That'd solve all their problems, wouldn't it? Well, apart from the fact that then they would be stuck with getting king Charles, of course.

Davian93
10-10-2017, 08:45 AM
Maybe Scotland could kick England out of the UK and then stay in the EU. That'd solve all their problems, wouldn't it? Well, apart from the fact that then they would be stuck with getting king Charles, of course.

3rd times a charm, right?

Southpaw2012
10-10-2017, 02:43 PM
bitter, disgusted and sad.

That being said, America: get your shit together and stop hogging "horrible news" headlines.

We've got the Catalan vote to process, the Brexit to manage, the next goddamn real estate bubble to avoid, convince people to go at least flexitarian (did you see that recalculation of the cattle-related methane gas effects on Global Warming? *shudder*), get Brazilians to understand that killing tribes in the Amazon is a Bad Thing,figure out how come North Korea is such good friends with Egypt, and figure out why is Putin so quiet about all of the above, what is he up to...

It's really not that bad here. If the mainstream media focused as much on the good as it does the bad, the world might be a better place. Instead of scrutinizing every little aspect of the shooter's life, let the authorities handle that and focus on the victims. Instead of bashing gun enthusiasts, discuss reasonable measures that would actually work. FOr instance, actually enforce the current laws and keep guns out of the hands of bad people. If gun control worked, cities like Chicago would be safer. The media likes to ignore the gun control laws of Chicago and all the violence that rages there on a daily basis. Enforce the damn laws.

Kimon
10-10-2017, 03:12 PM
It's really not that bad here. If the mainstream media focused as much on the good as it does the bad, the world might be a better place. Instead of scrutinizing every little aspect of the shooter's life, let the authorities handle that and focus on the victims. Instead of bashing gun enthusiasts, discuss reasonable measures that would actually work. FOr instance, actually enforce the current laws and keep guns out of the hands of bad people. If gun control worked, cities like Chicago would be safer. The media likes to ignore the gun control laws of Chicago and all the violence that rages there on a daily basis. Enforce the damn laws.

He bought all his guns legally. He bought that accessory that made his gun essentially into an automatic weapon legally as well. At some point it would be helpful if gun enthusiasts would recognize that there is a vast difference between owning one or two guns and owning 47. At some point it would be helpful if gun enthusiasts would recognize that a national gun registry is not an excessive infringment upon their privacy, but would help to track individuals who are collecting such an amount of weaponry as to demonstrate that they may be a danger to the public.

At some point it would also be helpful if gun enthusiasts admitted that maybe it is indeed the prevalence of guns that makes America so much more dangerous than otherwise similar western nations.

Unfortuantely these incidents result in a predictable outcome - one sides argues that there are too many guns, and the other argues that there are too few. But hey, maybe your side is right. Maybe the only problem is that every toddler isn’t packing an uzi and ready to take down any potential bad guy.

Davian93
10-10-2017, 06:52 PM
It's really not that bad here. If the mainstream media focused as much on the good as it does the bad, the world might be a better place. Instead of scrutinizing every little aspect of the shooter's life, let the authorities handle that and focus on the victims. Instead of bashing gun enthusiasts, discuss reasonable measures that would actually work. FOr instance, actually enforce the current laws and keep guns out of the hands of bad people. If gun control worked, cities like Chicago would be safer. The media likes to ignore the gun control laws of Chicago and all the violence that rages there on a daily basis. Enforce the damn laws.

Um...dumbass, since I'm not going to respond to all of this idiocy, none of the current laws would have prevented that piece of human garbage from killing all those people since he had no record. The only thing that would would be an assault weapon ban across the board.

As for Chicago...what are Wisconsin and Indiana's current gun laws? Both are a very very easy drive to and from Chicago...its almost as if people could potentially buy a gun elsewhere and drive back home to Chicago...almost.

Dumbass.

Fucking Dumbass

Fucking Ignorant Dumbass

connabard
10-10-2017, 10:20 PM
Also, adding to Dav's reply, I can't recall where I saw this statistic so take w/ a grain of salt, but citing Chicago as some blackhole of crime is asinine and misleading at best, it is one of the most densely populated cities in America and if you take into account murder per capita, it's significantly lower than if you just cherry pick the statistic of 'X murders in Y timeframe'

EDIT: Obviously preaching to the choir here subtract Southpaw, but context is as important as the statistic, if not more so

GonzoTheGreat
10-11-2017, 03:51 AM
It's really not that bad here. If the mainstream media focused as much on the good as it does the bad, the world might be a better place. Instead of scrutinizing every little aspect of the shooter's life, let the authorities handle that and focus on the victims. Instead of bashing gun enthusiasts, discuss reasonable measures that would actually work. FOr instance, actually enforce the current laws and keep guns out of the hands of bad people. If gun control worked, cities like Chicago would be safer. The media likes to ignore the gun control laws of Chicago and all the violence that rages there on a daily basis. Enforce the damn laws.
That seems to be a potentially more fruitful direction of discussion. Could you help me (a European) out by explaining precisely which US laws would, if they had been followed, have prevented this shooting?
Maybe you would need help from someone with a legal background; I know that in your position I wouldn't have a specific list of laws handy.

ShadowbaneX
10-11-2017, 07:36 AM
It's really not that bad here. If the mainstream media focused as much on the good as it does the bad, the world might be a better place. Instead of scrutinizing every little aspect of the shooter's life, let the authorities handle that and focus on the victims. Instead of bashing gun enthusiasts, discuss reasonable measures that would actually work. FOr instance, actually enforce the current laws and keep guns out of the hands of bad people. If gun control worked, cities like Chicago would be safer. The media likes to ignore the gun control laws of Chicago and all the violence that rages there on a daily basis. Enforce the damn laws.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/230133220476190721/366044496057860106/image.jpg

Brita
10-11-2017, 09:17 AM
It's really not that bad here. If the mainstream media focused as much on the good as it does the bad, the world might be a better place.

This I agree with.

The rest of your post has be nicely (and not-so-nicely) rebutted by others, but I just wanted to pull this little piece of wisdom out, because it is important.

Instead of being constantly discouraged by the terrible things, we could be inspired by the beautiful things. Even just a little balance would be nice.

To misuse this piece of wisdom to decide we don't need to discuss issues and factors surrounding the tragedy, however, is ignorant at best.

Davian93
10-11-2017, 02:50 PM
My wife and I took our dogs for an awesome walk on Monday during an early season snow storm (first of the year for Denver) in our local park in Denver. The park is usually pretty packed but we had the place almost to ourselves which was fun in its own way. Then we went home, had the fireplace going and made chili.

Just a nice day overall.

See...focusing on the positives.

Brita
10-11-2017, 02:55 PM
Aw, sounds lovely!

Yesterday, the girl in front of me in the Tim Horton's drive-thru line paid for my coffee. So I paid for the next guy. The staff member at the window exclaimed "I love when this happens!" I took a peek as I pulled out, and the guy behind me was paying- so the pay-forward was still happening.

I wonder how far it went? It made my day.

Davian93
10-11-2017, 03:18 PM
Aw, sounds lovely!

Yesterday, the girl in front of me in the Tim Horton's drive-thru line paid for my coffee. So I paid for the next guy. The staff member at the window exclaimed "I love when this happens!" I took a peek as I pulled out, and the guy behind me was paying- so the pay-forward was still happening.

I wonder how far it went? It made my day.

I miss Tim Hortons...they have them in New England but none out West.

connabard
10-11-2017, 03:22 PM
Aw, sounds lovely!

Yesterday, the girl in front of me in the Tim Horton's drive-thru line paid for my coffee. So I paid for the next guy. The staff member at the window exclaimed "I love when this happens!" I took a peek as I pulled out, and the guy behind me was paying- so the pay-forward was still happening.

I wonder how far it went? It made my day.
This has happened a number of times at Tim Hortons here in Calgary, and it brightens my day every time even though it is such a small thing.

I do wonder why I've never seen it anywhere else though? Perhaps because going to Timmies is so frequently just for a coffee or two; much easier to pay-it-forward when it's $3.50 and not $18.50

Kimon
10-11-2017, 03:55 PM
I miss Tim Hortons...they have them in New England but none out West.

Think you pretty much have to be a border state. Had myriad Tim's back in Michigan, but none in Illinois. Which is unfortunate, as Tim Horton's is much better than Dunkin and Krispy Kreme.

Brita
10-11-2017, 03:56 PM
This has happened a number of times at Tim Hortons here in Calgary, and it brightens my day every time even though it is such a small thing.

I do wonder why I've never seen it anywhere else though? Perhaps because going to Timmies is so frequently just for a coffee or two; much easier to pay-it-forward when it's $3.50 and not $18.50

It's funny because we all end up paying just about what we normally would. By the end, only one person will actually save a couple of dollars. Yet I'm sure it brightened every single person's day that was involved.

Davian93
10-12-2017, 08:11 AM
Think you pretty much have to be a border state. Had myriad Tim's back in Michigan, but none in Illinois. Which is unfortunate, as Tim Horton's is much better than Dunkin and Krispy Kreme.

Dunkin has gone downhill quite a bit...it used to be pretty awesome for coffee.

Wawas in SE PA/NJ used to be pretty awesome for coffee too but they've massively expanded too and I hear the quality has dropped off quite a bit as a result.

Kimon
10-12-2017, 10:58 AM
Dunkin has gone downhill quite a bit...it used to be pretty awesome for coffee.

Wawas in SE PA/NJ used to be pretty awesome for coffee too but they've massively expanded too and I hear the quality has dropped off quite a bit as a result.

I did a post-bac at the Univ. of Pennsylvania, so the only Wawas that I’m familiar with was the one right in West Philly near Penn’s campus, but it reminded me (at least back around 2001 while I was there) a lot of 7/11.

I actually like 7/11 coffee better than Starbucks and Dunkin. Starbucks is too bitter (similar to McDonalds problem with coffee), at least for the regular coffee, their more expensive, specialty type stuff (like their chai lattes or their winter seasonal stuff) is typically pretty good. Dunkin’s regular coffee is better, but they seem unable to put in a normal amount of cream, as even when you tell them to go light on the cream it is way too much, and for some reason I don’t like black coffee as much when hot as when cold.

Weird Harold
10-12-2017, 11:39 AM
Dunkin has gone downhill quite a bit...it used to be pretty awesome for coffee.

Dunkin was very good when you had to go to a Dunkin to get some. Once they spread their roast to every grocery store in town, the quality got spread pretty thin.

Davian93
10-12-2017, 02:21 PM
I did a post-bac at the Univ. of Pennsylvania, so the only Wawas that I’m familiar with was the one right in West Philly near Penn’s campus, but it reminded me (at least back around 2001 while I was there) a lot of 7/11.

I actually like 7/11 coffee better than Starbucks and Dunkin. Starbucks is too bitter (similar to McDonalds problem with coffee), at least for the regular coffee, their more expensive, specialty type stuff (like their chai lattes or their winter seasonal stuff) is typically pretty good. Dunkin’s regular coffee is better, but they seem unable to put in a normal amount of cream, as even when you tell them to go light on the cream it is way too much, and for some reason I don’t like black coffee as much when hot as when cold.

Wawa is like the best 7/11 ever conceived. Going there at 2 am and getting a freshly made hoagie was always a nice bonus. The newer ones were far superior to the original Wawas as they really upped their take-away food options.

I had 7/11 coffee this morning actually...and do get it fairly regularly. Its 99 cents for a refill so I can get coffee for a week from there compared to 1 day worth of Starbucks and Starbucks actual coffee (not their heated milk/cream concoctions) is just godawful.

yks 6nnetu hing
10-13-2017, 12:43 AM
and Starbucks actual coffee (not their heated milk/cream concoctions) is just godawful.

yes. strip away the fat and sugar and the Starbucks own coffee just blech... it's better than no coffee at all but that's about it. If I have to, I'll generally get the filter coffee there. Also thank goodness they are somewhat willing to adapt to regional preferences and made their coffee stronger over here, the American version is just scalding hot brown water (and this is coming grom ME! Dai keeps making fun of me at how hot I consume everything). On the other hand, if you scorch off your taste buds with the first sip, you won't notice just how bad it is, right?

I know it's controversial, but I prefer robusta to arabica, it isn't nearly as bitter/sour, has a natural sweet aftertaste and a lovely rounded umami taste. And, because it's robusta, it'll taste pretty much the same no matter where it was grown, when it was harvested etc.

Davian93
10-13-2017, 08:02 AM
yes. strip away the fat and sugar and the Starbucks own coffee just blech... it's better than no coffee at all but that's about it. If I have to, I'll generally get the filter coffee there. Also thank goodness they are somewhat willing to adapt to regional preferences and made their coffee stronger over here, the American version is just scalding hot brown water (and this is coming grom ME! Dai keeps making fun of me at how hot I consume everything). On the other hand, if you scorch off your taste buds with the first sip, you won't notice just how bad it is, right?

I know it's controversial, but I prefer robusta to arabica, it isn't nearly as bitter/sour, has a natural sweet aftertaste and a lovely rounded umami taste. And, because it's robusta, it'll taste pretty much the same no matter where it was grown, when it was harvested etc.

The biggest problem with it is they overroast and then over heat the coffee. Coffee should never be boiled as it pushes out the acids and they massively overroast their beans which leads to ironically weaker, harsher more acidy tasting coffee.

The best coffee, IMHO, is french press coffee done at home under monitored conditions. For example, I only make coffee that way and I live at 5300 feet in elevation (that's roughly 1615 Meters for you backwards Europeans and your quaint measurement systems) so my boiling point is only 202 F instead of 212 F (again, that'd be 94.4 C instead of 100 C for you "continentals") Thus, I don't push the water temp much above 190 so I don't make sour coffee. I also buy really good coffee beans and it comes out great.

You guys should really look into going back to the Imperial system rather than that funky non-sensical metric doohicky you're currently using. Join the modern world (US and Liberia) and come on board for the big win!

Davian93
10-13-2017, 08:25 AM
http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/eats/buffalo-sauce-lattes-served-internet-gagging-article-1.3558190?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link&ICID=ref_fark

This can't be real, right? Tim Hortons isn't this stupid, is it?

connabard
10-13-2017, 08:45 AM
All that article tells me is that nothing good ever lasts. Tim Hortons, once a bastion of The Light and Truth, now it is this.

Kimon
10-13-2017, 11:24 AM
http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/eats/buffalo-sauce-lattes-served-internet-gagging-article-1.3558190?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link&ICID=ref_fark

This can't be real, right? Tim Hortons isn't this stupid, is it?

I wonder if what they were mainly going for was an attempt to add a spiciness to their latte, though if so just advertising it as a Cayenne or Sriracha Latte probably would have been both more effective from a taste perspective, and less gag-inducing both aromatically and psychologically.

There are some disgusting, yet apparently popular, combinations though around the world. Andrew Zimmern’s Bizarre Foods had an episode in Bogota, Colombia, where he was sampling some of their odd hot chocolate. They put cheese in it, which both sounds, and looked, really disgusting.

Davian93
10-13-2017, 12:18 PM
I wonder if what they were mainly going for was an attempt to add a spiciness to their latte, though if so just advertising it as a Cayenne or Sriracha Latte probably would have been both more effective from a taste perspective, and less gag-inducing both aromatically and psychologically.

There are some disgusting, yet apparently popular, combinations though around the world. Andrew Zimmern’s Bizarre Foods had an episode in Bogota, Colombia, where he was sampling some of their odd hot chocolate. They put cheese in it, which both sounds, and looked, really disgusting.

I've had lots of Mexican hot chocolates before where there is a bit of heat and its almost a savory drink and those are delicious. This looks really bad in comparison.

Khoram
10-14-2017, 09:39 AM
Yeah... Don't know what Timmies is doing with that concoction there.

On the subject of Timmies possibly being available in the States due to a particular state being on the border, I can confirm that there are no Timmies I have seen in Washington state. We had to bring some with us for the Canadian Detachment here at Lewis-McChord - which tells me that they don't get Timmies here.

It's all a shame, really. Seattle is an hour north from Tacoma, and Vancouver is just beyond that. Can't see why Timmies wouldn't at least make it to Seattle.

Davian93
10-14-2017, 02:30 PM
Yeah... Don't know what Timmies is doing with that concoction there.

On the subject of Timmies possibly being available in the States due to a particular state being on the border, I can confirm that there are no Timmies I have seen in Washington state. We had to bring some with us for the Canadian Detachment here at Lewis-McChord - which tells me that they don't get Timmies here.

It's all a shame, really. Seattle is an hour north from Tacoma, and Vancouver is just beyond that. Can't see why Timmies wouldn't at least make it to Seattle.

Do you like Fort Lewis? I was stationed there for over 3 years. Its a beautiful area...great hiking and kayaking in that area. If you get a chance, you should try to make it down to Mount Saint Helens. Its about 2-3 hours south but totally worth it...the hiking is amazing. I'd imagine you're on the McChord side of the joint base which is pretty awesome too.

You should head up to Rainier National Park too...right out the back gate almost.

And if you're into skiing/snowboarding, Steven's Pass was by far my favorite one even if it was a bit further away than the ones near the base.

Khoram
10-14-2017, 08:02 PM
Do you like Fort Lewis? I was stationed there for over 3 years. Its a beautiful area...great hiking and kayaking in that area. If you get a chance, you should try to make it down to Mount Saint Helens. Its about 2-3 hours south but totally worth it...the hiking is amazing. I'd imagine you're on the McChord side of the joint base which is pretty awesome too.

You should head up to Rainier National Park too...right out the back gate almost.

And if you're into skiing/snowboarding, Steven's Pass was by far my favorite one even if it was a bit further away than the ones near the base.

Yeah. We're on the McChord side, and don't do much crossing over to the Lewis side. We've spent the past couple of days in Seattle - we finished up early yesterday and made the drive up, and then headed back up this morning. I know we'll be heading over to Portland at some point in the next two weeks to see some F-15 practice scrambles, which'll be really cool to see.

I'm hoping to get a chance to head over to Rainier at some point - this whole week is looking like it'll be raining; hopefully it'll clear up enough next weekend.

yks 6nnetu hing
10-16-2017, 01:53 AM
The best coffee, IMHO, is french press coffee done at home under monitored conditions.

Agreed. Althougth, I once tasted a filter coffee that was truly amazing. Now, granted, it was during a coffee workshop and the guy who made it had just won an international filter coffee championship title (which apparently is a Real Thing).