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GonzoTheGreat 06-20-2012 04:28 AM

Mat and the Horn
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TGH, Chapter 47, The Grave Is No Bar to My Call
Artur Hawkwing clapped the sniffer on the shoulder. "Sometimes the Wheel adds to our number, friend. Perhaps you will find yourself among us, one day." Hurin sat up as if he had been offered a crown. Hawkwing bowed formally from his saddle to Rand. "With your permission ... Lord Rand. Trumpeter, will you give us music on the Horn? Fitting that the Horn of Valere should sing us into battle. Bannerman, will you advance?"

Now, it is possible that Perrin is the Bannerman, and that that's his actual title as HotH, just Birgitte is the Archer.

But could Mat be the Trumpeter?
If he is, then he can't be a HotH, since if he is to be spun out by it, then who's supposed to blow it?

Yet, if being the one who uses the Horn of Valere is no big deal, then how can Mat (or anyone, really) ever hope to be worthy of being a Hero?

All in all, I'm now thinking that while Rand and Perrin are HotH, Mat isn't, because he can't be.

Ieyasu 06-20-2012 04:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 192924)
Now, it is possible that Perrin is the Bannerman, and that that's his actual title as HotH, just Birgitte is the Archer.

But could Mat be the Trumpeter?
If he is, then he can't be a HotH, since if he is to be spun out by it, then who's supposed to blow it?

Yet, if being the one who uses the Horn of Valere is no big deal, then how can Mat (or anyone, really) ever hope to be worthy of being a Hero?

All in all, I'm now thinking that while Rand and Perrin are HotH, Mat isn't, because he can't be.

I dont know if Mat or Perrin are heroes, though I do tend to lean more towards ARE than ARE NOT...

That said, I do not see how being spun out and sounding the horn somehow disqualifies Mat from being a Hero. He could be the mischief or trickester/gambler as Rand is the dragon, B&C are the lovers, B = the archer, P = the bannerman, etc His role in being bound to the horn doesnt have to be tied into sounding the horn... perhaps last rotation Perrin was a wolf-talking horn-blowing son of a gun... just because Mat blew the Heroes Horn this time around shouldnt auto dq him from hero status... I do not see what one has to do with the other...

GonzoTheGreat 06-20-2012 06:04 AM

My idea does indeed depend on the assumption that the Horn isn't blown officially all that often, and that when it is done, the one to do it is always the Trumpeter-Trickster: Mat.

If that is the case, then Mat could never be called up by the Horn, because he would be the one doing the calling and he can't do that if he's dead.

Ieyasu 06-20-2012 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 192935)
My idea does indeed depend on the assumption that the Horn isn't blown officially all that often, and that when it is done, the one to do it is always the Trumpeter-Trickster: Mat.

If that is the case, then Mat could never be called up by the Horn, because he would be the one doing the calling and he can't do that if he's dead.

ok even going with that assumption, its not a stretch to imagine mat is the sounder every time and never actually comes to the call because hes always out when its sounded... he can still be a HOTH without ever being called by the horn... simply because hes always the one who SOUNDS the horn... tho it stands to reason this cant be so, since people know (on both sides of the ocean) that the sounder is linked until death with the horn... only way they would know that is if someone sounded it and got linked, then lost the horn or allowed someone else to blow it... and presto it doesnt work... till that first guy dies...


then again i suppose one of the blabbermouth heroes that dont care about the precepts very much could have told people...

Grig 06-20-2012 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 192924)
But could Mat be the Trumpeter?
If he is, then he can't be a HotH, since if he is to be spun out by it, then who's supposed to blow it?

You're starting from a false premise, I think, although it's understandable since we always refer to them as "Heroes of the Horn". Heroes are used as a corrective mechanism for the Pattern, completely aside from any duties they have of serving when the Horn is blown. It would not detract at all from that duty if Mat's soul always blows the Horn.

And I say that leaning towards Mat and Perrin not being Heroes. I dislike the idea that everyone in the current Age is someone important reborn or a Hero. That makes the eternal struggle just a small reference pool of people responsible for saving the world, with nobody else's actions really mattering at all for all eternity.

GonzoTheGreat 06-20-2012 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grig (Post 192957)
That makes the eternal struggle just a small reference pool of people responsible for saving the world, with nobody else's actions really mattering at all for all eternity.

Only if Ishamael and Lanfear are also Heroes. If not, then you can have a clear and (possibly) big impact if you choose the other side at the right moment. :p

Ishara 06-20-2012 06:37 PM

Can't souls be pre-destined to be a part of the Pattern without being Heroes?

Just because we know that Perrin and mat are both integral, and prophesized in no way sets them up to be Heroes, in my opinion...

maleshub 06-20-2012 06:42 PM

Birgitte did call Mat "Hornsounder." That has a nice ring to it, as well as a defined "Job Description."

Grig 06-20-2012 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ishara (Post 192990)
Can't souls be pre-destined to be a part of the Pattern without being Heroes?

Sure, all souls are pre-destined part of the Pattern. Even the birds, rocks, and trees. It's what they dom getting weaved into the pattern :).

Quote:

Just because we know that Perrin and mat are both integral, and prophesized in no way sets them up to be Heroes, in my opinion...
+1. And "prophecy" by no means marks one as a Hero, otherwise Lanfear, Luc, and many others would be (and Brandon would definitely know that there are "subverted" Heros active, instead of giving an "I don't think so but not positive" answer).

Quote:

Birgitte did call Mat "Hornsounder." That has a nice ring to it, as well as a defined "Job Description."
And yet, they addressed Rand as Lews Therin instead of Dragon. It doesn't really seem like they refer to each other by codenames.

And before anyone brings up precepts again (ugh), those have to do with behavior between lives in Tel'aran'rhiod. And there's no real difference between Rand and Perrin/Mat in that scene. Rand suspects that he's LTT, but he knows nothing about his possible status as a Hero of the Horn any more than Mat and Perrin do.

maleshub 06-20-2012 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grig (Post 192993)
And yet, they addressed Rand as Lews Therin instead of Dragon. It doesn't really seem like they refer to each other by codenames.

Which could very well be an early manifestation of Min's viewing of two men merging. Rand later told Min that he's always been Lews Therin and that Lews Therin has always been him. Could it be that Hawkwing and the heroes recognized his spirit?

Or is it that the Horn is linked to the Dragon and is always found and sounded only when the Dragon is alive?

anenu 06-20-2012 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grig (Post 192993)
And before anyone brings up precepts again (ugh), those have to do with behavior between lives in Tel'aran'rhiod. And there's no real difference between Rand and Perrin/Mat in that scene. Rand suspects that he's LTT, but he knows nothing about his possible status as a Hero of the Horn any more than Mat and Perrin do.

Except that Rand is the Dragon Reborn while other HoTH are not specified as being particular people reborn they are simply reborn to fulfill part of the pattern to to tell a story. So Birgitte for instance is not simply her last incarnation reborn she is only one person each life and it isn't until she dies that she becomes all the people she has been. Rand however is both himself and LTT so addressing Rand as who he is besides himself is a great difference from addressing Mat or Perrin by their previous lives because they aren't those people and will not be again until they die.

GonzoTheGreat 06-21-2012 04:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleshub (Post 192992)
Birgitte did call Mat "Hornsounder." That has a nice ring to it, as well as a defined "Job Description."

Then again, maybe Birgitte is a Myrddraal:
Quote:

Originally Posted by TSR, Chapter 13, Rumors
The Fade's black sword blurred as it knocked the dagger away, almost casually; it did not even break stride. "Time to die, Hornsounder." Its voice was a red adder's dry hiss, warning of death.


Heinz 06-21-2012 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 192924)
Now, it is possible that Perrin is the Bannerman, and that that's his actual title as HotH, just Birgitte is the Archer.

But could Mat be the Trumpeter?

Is it too simple that Hawkwing was simply calling them by a title fitting the duties they (Mat and Perrin) were performing in this moment, and not for all eternity? I have always assumed this was the case, and there has been little to nothing in the rest of the series to suggest otherwise.

The exception is the references to Mat as 'Hornsounder', though I took this to reference his actions at the end of tGH, not a title of his theoretically destined role.

Though I lean toward Perrin and Mat not being Heroes, partly from this very scene where they were not recognized as Rand was.

GonzoTheGreat 06-21-2012 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heinz (Post 193031)
Is it too simple that Hawkwing was simply calling them by a title fitting the duties they (Mat and Perrin) were performing in this moment, and not for all eternity? I have always assumed this was the case, and there has been little to nothing in the rest of the series to suggest otherwise.

The exception is the references to Mat as 'Hornsounder', though I took this to reference his actions at the end of tGH, not a title of his theoretically destined role.

Well, Perrin's role as Steward of the Dragon is yet another example of him being the Dragon's Bannerman. That is a fairly new development, but it fits this old pattern well.

A lot weaker is the fact that Mat has been teaching new (old) songs, which fits his role of musician. But, to make it a bit stronger again, there's this bit of prophecy to consider:
Quote:

Originally Posted by KoD, Chapter 4, A Deal
“I’m glad he didn’t name you the Wolf King, my Lord,” the Banner-General drawled. The way she slurred her words, Perrin had to listen hard to make out what she was saying. “Otherwise, I’d think Tarmon Gai’don was on us. You know the Prophecies of the Dragon? ‘When the Wolf King carries the hammer, thus are the final days known. When the fox marries the raven, and the trumpets of battle are blown.’ I never understood that second line, myself. And you. my Lady. Sur Paendrag. That would mean from Paendrag?”

Once again trumpets associated with Mat, you'll notice.

Quote:

Though I lean toward Perrin and Mat not being Heroes, partly from this very scene where they were not recognized as Rand was.
The trouble with that approach is that Rand is a rather huge exception, so extrapolating based on his case seems rather iffy. Rand is not only a Hero reborn, he actually appears there knowing that he is that Hero reborn. Having the other Heroes confirm that does not give any new information; it does not tell anyone things they're not supposed to know.
Hurin is told in the same scene that's he's not a Hero (yet), which puts him in the same boat as billions of other people, so this is not a great reveal either.

The silence on this score about Mat and Perrin is suggestive, but no more than that.

Heinz 06-21-2012 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 193033)
But, to make it a bit stronger again, there's this bit of prophecy to consider:

Once again trumpets associated with Mat, you'll notice.

Except this quote still references a prophecy regarding this age and its events, not an implication that Mat does this sort of thing all the time through the ages. Mat will sound the Horn at TG, something we've known for quite some time. I don't see that there's anything else here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 193033)
The trouble with that approach is that Rand is a rather huge exception...The silence on this score about Mat and Perrin is suggestive, but no more than that.

I'll agree that the silence regarding Mat and Perrin is suggestive. My thought is that we have had no further evidence of what it really suggests.

Mat is called a Hornsounder a couple of times, and a trumpeter in Seanchan prophecy (I had forgotten that quote, actually, as I usually skip Perrin's stuff except for clearing the Two Rivers on rereads now. I might have to suffer through one last round of a reread.), but not in such a way that I, personally, think you can say 'yes, that is a reference to his soul, not just Matrim Cauthon of the current Third Age'. All references are to Mat specifically, or to a prophecy regarding this age. None are referring to a Hero archtype like 'The Archer'.

maleshub 06-21-2012 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 193021)
Then again, maybe Birgitte is a Myrddraal:

Thanks for that reference. It just goes to show how "universal" his job description is :p

Landro 06-22-2012 08:14 AM

Quote:

Go trickster! Go Gambler! Go son of Battles!
That's how the Finn called Mat. Those are much likelier candidates for Mat's role.

Abbaaddon 07-03-2012 05:29 AM

is there any evidence of the previous Hornblowers (it has a nasty sound, I must admit) being integrated to the Heores of the Horn ? And does they always have to go by pairs (one bannerman and one trumpetter) or is it due to Perrin and Mat's nature of Ta'veren ?

Slightly off-topic but i would see Olver, Hurin and maybe Talmanes (I cannot resign myself to the fact that he might be a Darkfriend or under Demandred's compulsion) being Heroes in another turn of the Wheel. Even if Olver's role is yet to be discovered

GonzoTheGreat 07-03-2012 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abbaaddon (Post 193611)
is there any evidence of the previous Hornblowers (it has a nasty sound, I must admit) being integrated to the Heores of the Horn ?

Not that we know of. In the AOL, the Horn wasn't used at all, and all they had were vague myths about it. That ignorance was then further improved by the destruction of all libraries and other centers of learning.

Quote:

And does they always have to go by pairs (one bannerman and one trumpetter) or is it due to Perrin and Mat's nature of Ta'veren ?
No idea at all. Which, I'll admit, does not particularly help solidify my speculation on this.

Weird Harold 07-03-2012 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abbaaddon (Post 193611)
is there any evidence of the previous Hornblowers (it has a nasty sound, I must admit) being integrated to the Heores of the Horn ? ...

I don't think there is anything within the WOT canon to suggest a link between sounding the Horn and a Hero's soul. There is however strong suggestion in the Norse and other mythologies that the horn to summon heroes from Valhalla (or equivalent) will be blown by either a Hero or a God -- a God which is probably indistinguishable from a Hero of the Horn from half a Turning's distance.

RJ borrowed heavily from Norse Mythology in forming the character traits of the Three Amigos. Mat has bits of Odin, Loki, and Baldur(?) in his makeup, as well as bit and pieces from other mythologies as well -- eg Coyote. Rand, Perrin and Mat all have bits of Thor in their makeup. Etc, etc, etc.

I don't recall all of the sources that have been tracked down, but most of the associated mythologies include some corespondent to Valhalla, Elysian Fields, or "Heroes of the Horn Of Valere"


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