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The Unreasoner 01-03-2016 01:08 PM

Good Work, Southpaw
 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-rural-oregon/

Quote:

An armed militia took over a building at a national wildlife refuge in Oregon late Saturday and vows to occupy the outpost for years to protest the federal government’s treatment of a pair of ranchers facing prison time.
The occupation of a portion of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge 30 miles southeast of Burns, Ore., followed a peaceful march for ranchers Dwight Hammond, 73, and Steven Hammond, 46, who are scheduled to report to federal prison in San Pedro, Calif., on Monday after being convicted of arson, according to the Oregonian.


Prosecutors said the father and son set the fire, which burned about 130 acres in 2001 on leased federal land, to conceal poaching, according to CNN. The Hammonds argued that they were attempting to reduce the growth of invasive plant species and ward off potential wildfires. The pair was sentenced to five years in prison.


Among the occupiers are several members of the Bundy family, whose patriarch — Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy — was involved in an armed standoff with government agents over grazing rights in 2014.


Ammon Bundy told the Oregonian that he and two of his brothers had joined dozens of people in seizing the refuge’s headquarters.


The federal property, managed by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, was closed and unoccupied for the holiday weekend, the Oregonian reported.



Ryan Bundy told the Oregonian that the group isn’t holding hostages and doesn’t want to resort to violence but will not rule it out if authorities attempt to remove the occupiers from the property. He said many of the occupiers would be willing to fight — and die — to reclaim constitutionally protected rights for local land management, according to the Associated Press.
Emphasis mine.

You show that Federal government who's boss, Southpaw.

GonzoTheGreat 01-04-2016 04:25 AM

Seems simple enough: put snipers around the building with "shoot to kill" orders, and just wait. After a couple of months or so the occupiers will run out of supplies, and then they try to order pizza. This won't work, since the pizza delivery service doesn't want to be shot dead, and thus the problem will be solved. Once all occupiers have starved to death a clean up team can go in to remove the corpses, and some time next year the building can be used for its designated purpose again.
As a bonus, this can be used by the US Army for life fire sniper training, thus saving the cost of doing that elsewhere.

Are there any actual downsides to this?

Davian93 01-04-2016 10:37 AM

A single JDAM through the roof and then mail the remains back to their respective families in plastic bags would be better.

Caedite Eos!

DahLliA 01-04-2016 10:57 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the whole purpose of the 2nd amendment?

Right to carry arms, so that if the people don't like what the government is doing, they can use those arms to shoot back at the army?

Problem as I see it, is that "the people" is pretty hard to define :p

GonzoTheGreat 01-04-2016 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DahLliA (Post 235066)
Problem as I see it, is that "the people" is pretty hard to define

Nuke them from orbit; it's the only way to be sure.

ShadowbaneX 01-04-2016 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davian93 (Post 235065)
A single JDAM through the roof and then mail the remains back to their respective families in plastic bags would be better.

Caedite Eos!

Can they do the Chinese thing and charge the family for the cost of the missile? Out of respect they could offer free shipping, but give them the option to upgrade to overnight courier if they want.

Kimon 01-04-2016 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DahLliA (Post 235066)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the whole purpose of the 2nd amendment?

Right to carry arms, so that if the people don't like what the government is doing, they can use those arms to shoot back at the army?

Problem as I see it, is that "the people" is pretty hard to define :p

The 2nd Amendment (much like the problem with the interpretation of the 1st Amendment) means vastly different things to different people. This unfortunately is one of those sticky situations where the anarchic kooks are clearly in violation of numerous laws, and clearly deserving of being brought to justice, but arresting crazy people can be messy - like Ruby Ridge and Waco, or the Whiskey Rebellion back in the 1790s...

We have a long history of these sorts of tax evading and anti-govt dicks. Indeed our nascence was little more than a temper tantrum when mommy asked us to help repay her war debts from the French and Indian War which we had triggered.

The Unreasoner 01-04-2016 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kimon (Post 235069)
We have a long history of these sorts of tax evading and anti-govt dicks. Indeed our nascence was little more than a temper tantrum when mommy asked us to help repay her war debts from the French and Indian War which we had triggered.

The French weren't exactly blameless, and Britain treated all of her colonies like shit. Granted, we probably had less to complain about than most, but less is not none. And we got a fantastic severence package.


Amusingly, many on the right are trying to equate this pack of rednecks with Black Lives Matter, or at least in terms of legitimacy.

The differences of course being: Black Lives Matter is not heavily armed, and they also have jobs that prevent them from jacking off in the woods for a few years.

Southpaw2012 01-04-2016 04:55 PM

I don't support this, so nice try. However, it's funny you all are up in arms about white guys taking over a building, no force used, yet are silent when a bunch of black people burn down other people's property, as well as steal and loot from those who don't deserve it. Funny, though unsurprising.

Davian93 01-04-2016 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Southpaw2012 (Post 235074)
I don't support this, so nice try. However, it's funny you all are up in arms about white guys taking over a building, no force used, yet are silent when a bunch of black people burn down other people's property, as well as steal and loot from those who don't deserve it. Funny, though unsurprising.

LOL...the "ironic" thing is that we're kidding but you're normally serious.

And nice try on placing this along the lines of Black Lives Matter...given that we've all bashed that fringe movement too.

But yeah.

Southpaw2012 01-04-2016 05:07 PM

Yeah, those guys are stupid. Whether they are right, it's only going to lead to chaos.

The Unreasoner 01-04-2016 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Southpaw2012 (Post 235076)
Yeah, those guys are stupid. Whether they are right, it's only going to lead to chaos.

Of course they might be right, and aren't a bunch of sisterfucking welfare queens who want to use civilian human shields.

Davian93 01-04-2016 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Southpaw2012 (Post 235076)
Yeah, those guys are stupid. Whether they are right, it's only going to lead to chaos.

Given that the two guys they're protesting in support of have disowned them and don't want anything to do with them...I'm guessing they're not right.


Also, these ranchers already get massive subsidies on land usage where they can rent federal land out at a pittance (maybe 5% of its actual private market value) with only minimal restrictions on its usage. Its pure gov't welfare to support ranching as it is. Yet they're bitching about the big evil gov't telling them HOW they get to use land that isn't even theirs and has NEVER been theirs.

Its part of the "I want to have my cake and eat it too" mentality you see so often in the Far Right. They want all the benefits of society while refusing to deal with the obligations that those benefits entail whether its "don't use all that water up" or "clean up that pollution from your ranch/farm" or "pay basic taxes for things".

Kimon 01-04-2016 05:58 PM

On a tangential note...

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-35228848

Will be interesting to see just what he does, and just how much of a tantrum the right throws.

Davian93 01-04-2016 06:04 PM

I honestly think this is an idiotic decision by him that will only hurt the Left come November. Gun Control is a huge wedge issue in swing states like PA, CO, OH and FL. Threatening gun rights really brings out the Right and a big chunk of the Center to vote against it whereas the Left really isn't motivated t to show up to vote in support of it.

Add in the coming economic slowdown thanks to China's paper dragon finally imploding and it suddenly becomes a toss-up election in November potentially.

Why risk it...why risk handing over the Presidency when you can't really do much of anything via Executive Order anyway? Just a stupid gesture by him.

Rand al'Fain 01-04-2016 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davian93 (Post 235080)
I honestly think this is an idiotic decision by him that will only hurt the Left come November. Gun Control is a huge wedge issue in swing states like PA, CO, OH and FL. Threatening gun rights really brings out the Right and a big chunk of the Center to vote against it whereas the Left really isn't motivated t to show up to vote in support of it.

Add in the coming economic slowdown thanks to China's paper dragon finally imploding and it suddenly becomes a toss-up election in November potentially.

Why risk it...why risk handing over the Presidency when you can't really do much of anything via Executive Order anyway? Just a stupid gesture by him.

Colorado more so than most. A month hardly goes by when there isn't some sort of shooting spree going on it seems.

Maybe not that often, but it seems something is in the water down there.

Davian93 01-04-2016 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rand al'Fain (Post 235081)
Colorado more so than most. A month hardly goes by when there isn't some sort of shooting spree going on it seems.

Maybe not that often, but it seems something is in the water down there.

Its a fairly rural state with a ton of hunters...same as OH and PA. Lots of OH & PA are very conservative older white Democrats mixed in with the urban area democrats (overwhelmingly minorities in Pittsburgh and Philly). PA is basically two cities with Alabama in between for forward thinking. I grew up there, I still have a TON of friends and family there and they will vote Dem as long as you don't piss them off with things like taking their guns. OH is nearly the same but even more Red than PA due a more rural population. FL is obviously always a major swing state.

Here's another bit on the whole "protest/sit-in" crap: http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/...cid=538twitter

Great article on how hypocritical they're being about the cost of using federal land. If it was privatized like they "want", they couldn't afford it and they'd all be bought out by mega corporate farms anyway. They're idiots.

Kimon 01-04-2016 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davian93 (Post 235080)
I honestly think this is an idiotic decision by him that will only hurt the Left come November. Gun Control is a huge wedge issue in swing states like PA, CO, OH and FL. Threatening gun rights really brings out the Right and a big chunk of the Center to vote against it whereas the Left really isn't motivated t to show up to vote in support of it.

Add in the coming economic slowdown thanks to China's paper dragon finally imploding and it suddenly becomes a toss-up election in November potentially.

Why risk it...why risk handing over the Presidency when you can't really do much of anything via Executive Order anyway? Just a stupid gesture by him.

You may well be right, but that doesn't change the truly depressing fact that nothing that he is presumably (at least what has supposedly been leaked so far) putting forth should be controversial.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-35229294

Quote:

Under the plan announced on Monday evening by the White House:
All sellers must be licensed and conduct background checks, overturning current exemptions to some online and gun show sellers
States must provide information on people disqualified due to mental illness or domestic violence
FBI will increase workforce processing background checks by 50%, hiring more than 230 new examiners
Congress will be asked to invest $500m (£339m) to improve access to mental healthcare
The departments of defence, justice and homeland security will explore "smart gun technology" to improve gun safety

Davian93 01-04-2016 09:38 PM

None of it should even be debatable and these are all measures that were perfectly acceptable even under Bush Jr and would have been considered insane (for their LACK of reach) by Bush Sr or Mr. Brady Bill himself St. Reagan.

But it will be and it'll be twisted way out of proportion by the Right as a get out the vote measure.

fionwe1987 01-05-2016 03:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davian93 (Post 235080)
I honestly think this is an idiotic decision by him that will only hurt the Left come November. Gun Control is a huge wedge issue in swing states like PA, CO, OH and FL. Threatening gun rights really brings out the Right and a big chunk of the Center to vote against it whereas the Left really isn't motivated t to show up to vote in support of it.

I don't know... fear of exactly this set of events has led to pretty much nothing changing. Doing what he's doing can bring out the right, sure, but it might just energize gun opponents too.

If common sense proposals to stop selling guns without licenses to people without a mental health clearance will bring out the worst in the right wing... maybe this country needs to see that.

Also, I find the very idea of comparing this to BLM absurd. Those guys are extreme, but they're reacting to a very real problem which has been repeatedly ignored by the rest of society. This... this is a tantrum with guns.


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