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-   -   Another Gauntlet Thrown Down by Brandon (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2514)

Kurtz 11-13-2009 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez
Wat?

Indeed

ShadowbaneX 11-13-2009 03:24 PM

Isn't she also currently MIA at the Black Tower? That could be kinda big.

Tercel 11-13-2009 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crispin's Crispian
It's also one of the big mysteries--what the hell are they doing in Far Madding? I'll have to dig up PoD from my garage and reread the Prologue. I believe Ethenielle said something about finding Rand and "doing what needs to be done," but WTF does that mean?

I read PoD recently and I thought it made it relatively clear what the purpose of the Borderlanders was:

Quote:

Prologue, Path of Daggers:
'Did I make the right choice [to come south]?' ... '[Yes becuase] the White Tower appears to be paralysed as well as shattered. You could have sat watching the Blight while the world crumbled behind you. You could have if you were someone else.' The simple need to act. Was that what had brought her here? Well, if the White Tower would not or could not do what had to be done, then someone must. What good to guard th Blight if the world did crumble behind her?... Too many rulers to the south had died or vanished in the last year for her to feel any comfort in wearing a crown. Too many lands had been smashed as thoroughly as an army of Trollocs could have achieved. Whoever he was, this al'Thor fellow had much to answer for. Much.
...some of us could find our heads on spikes. Perhaps all of us will. The White Tower may well see to it if this al'Thor does not.
If Aes Sedai had gained a hint of their plans... She would dislike discovering that she was putting her hands into two hornet nests, not just one...
'Further south,' Easar added, 'it may be well to have thirteen Aes Sedai with us.'...
Now they had to find Rand al'Thor. And do what needed to be done. Whatever the price.
Also of note, is that the presence of the 13 Aes Sedai was not originally anticipated by the Borderlander rulers. So their plan had not involved the use of AS against Rand.

Clearly the rulers are concerned about:
1. The disorder in the non-Borderlander nations, and they intend to try and help.
2. They feel the White Tower is not doing its duty in keeping nations running and dealing with Rand.
3. That much of the disorder is being caused by Rand. They have an unspecified agenda aimed at stopping Rand causing disorder. [It is also implied somewhere they feel slighted he has ignored the Borderlanders so far]
4. Their plan did not originally involve the use of AS. So obviously if they did plan to capture Rand they would have to use Far Madding, which as we know from tGS they do use.

Terez 11-13-2009 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowbaneX
Isn't she also currently MIA at the Black Tower? That could be kinda big.

Yes. I think that her deal will be big, according to Min's vision, but I don't think it fits what BS said, about the detail being comparable to the Mistborn detail, and also being present in 'books and books'.

However, I just realized that, since Min saw something for Faolain's future, it's doubtful that the rebels have been killed, and probably the Reds are only captives as well. I was hoping they weren't dead. But if they're being held captive, then that would be reason for Egwene to get involved in the Black Tower battle - the huge Battle of Caemlyn that the guys over at 13th Depository have been predicting? - and also the confrontation between Egwene and Rand could happen there (as they seem to have been connected in Elaida's Foretelling anyway).

ShadowbaneX 11-13-2009 05:52 PM

ok, let's go the with idea that this is the detail and see if it fits the other criteria? Have other things come up, hints, suggestions, etc, in later books about what it might occur? Subtle foreshadowing or similar?

Terez 11-13-2009 06:07 PM

That's the problem - I can't think of ANYTHING except those two quotes I posted. Maybe someone else will have better luck coming up with stuff from later books.

FelixPax 11-16-2009 12:23 AM

Valan Luca, and the other Luca: ex-Tinker & the Song?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tercel
So, off the top of my head, the only thing that's really fitting BS's comments is Slayer and book 4-6's indication of his likely presence within the Tower of Ghenji. ...or something about Fain... or the Tinkers and their Song.

The small detail maybe have to do with the 'other Luca', cast out of the Da'shain as seen by Rand (TSR, Chapter 25). The better known Luca, is Valan Luca, the leader of a Circus band with a Tinker like wagon, who has taken in Sea Folk men as acrobats.

That's a strange combination Sea Folk men, not on boats or close to the water, but in a circus? At least Bayle Doman's Sea Folk crew member(s), was working on a boat in a river; but not on salt water and working for a shorebounder. All these Sea Folk men, would be outsiders from their native societal groups; as is Valan Luca himself, and I believe as an ex-Tinker.

Valan Luca is first seen in book 5, but the 'other Luca' is seen in book 4, by Rand's pov.

Last we know of Valan Luca, he was heading into Murandy with his Circus and then onto Caemlyn. Chuckles...a chance reunion of Mat, Elayne, Birgitte, Aludra, Noal and the possibility of Valan Luca meeting some more Sea Folk.

There is something I'm missing about Valan Luca background and his likely future; just can't put my finger on it at the moment. Sometimes I wonder if it has to do with Valan Luca's own stories of Shara? Noal has some stories, but he isn't an ex-Tinker nor of a Sea Folk Clan or one of the Aiel Clans. Maybe the interaction of Mat, Bayle, Berelain, Noal, Valan Luca, a Sea Folk person and a Wise One will shred more light on this in ToM?


EDIT: Is Valan Luca, the re-born soul combination of the "Luca" in Rand's Rhuidean vision?

Quote:

Originally Posted by tSR, Chapter "The Road To The Spear"
Luca, with his shoulders half again as wide as anyone else’s; he liked to play tricks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tSR, Chapter "The Road To The Spear"
Alijha said nothing, only ran his eyes over the four dead bodies, looked at the spears Luca was winding with blankets to carry Charlin’s body on.

What part of Valan Luca's claim of visiting Shara to Nynaeve et la is true, and did he have to kill someone to survive and escape Shara at sometime in the past?

isamu237 11-16-2009 02:33 AM

Eureka! (And yes, I'm naked).
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowbaneX
speaking of stuff that wasn't discussed, I'm surprised no one's brought up Egwene's use of need in t'a'r taking her to a tinker camp, but yeah, that's another topic.

Could this have something to do with what I brought up a few days ago regarding Mat and the dead Tinkers? Egy jumps into a Tinker camp using Need in TAR, and a couple books later Mat finds a group of slaughtered Tinkers with a blood scrawled message of "Tell the Dragon Reborn." Neither of these two events have been explained as far as I know. Could they be connected?

Terez 11-16-2009 02:35 AM

We've discussed that. Not much to go on, so....impossible to say.

isamu237 11-16-2009 02:44 AM

Stay on target, stay on target...
 
Perusing the posts it seems we've lost a little focus.
From the BS quote, we need to find more than just something we've overlooked that will play a role in the story somehow. My impression of his statement is that this small thing is earth-shatteringly huge. Whatever it is, it has to be something that effects the climax, i.e. the Last Battle, sealing away the DO or something else of similar climatic import.

isamu237 11-16-2009 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davian93
Honestly, I like that one...its completely off the wall and its something we've never really talked about. Shara fell into civil war when news of Rand hit them.

Ditto.
But this leads me to second whoever said we need clarification here. Are we looking for one minor event that occurred somewhere in books 4-6 (this would definitely apply) or something minor that occurred throughout books 4-6 (then I'd lean toward the Egy, Need and the Tinkers).

Terez 11-16-2009 03:42 AM

Clarification....Brandon compared it to a detail from Mistborn:

Spoiler:
Vin's earring. For those who haven't read it....Vin had a strange talent of being able to pierce copper clouds, which meant that she could sense people who were burning metal (like channeling) even when they were burning copper (which is like inverting your weaves and hiding your ability, essentially...should be impossible to pierce copper clouds). Anyway, Vin had a copper earring (I hope I am remembering this correctly) that her crazy mother stuck her with when she was a baby. Another detail from the trilogy that became clear-ish in book 2 is that people can be infused with allomantic powers if they are pierced with the metal that was used to kill someone who had that particular allomantic power. So, we should have been able to guess why Vin was able to pierce copper clouds after book 2, but most people did not surmise that (maybe no one did). I have only read the trilogy once, though, so maybe someone else can explain the whole thing better.


Anyway.....here are some quotes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by BS
The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Union Square Barnes & Noble, NYC 9 November 2009 - WinespringBrother reporting

I asked a follow up question about the big clue in books 4-6, asking if the clue became more relevant due to events in the later books, and he said that it didn't, and that it's something we should have picked up on when it appeared. He also issued a caveat (that is basically common sense) that it is possible someone discussed this issue at some point on one of the boards and that he didn't see that, but that he has never seen it raised in his lurkings, and that this issue is more important than who killed you-know-who.

Brandon is concerned about the HCFF's digging and digging for the surprise in books 4-6 and ruining it for TOM. Also, he stated he never read anyone discussing it but it is possible someone has. Also, it is some puzzle that should have been looked at when it was first revealed. It's bigger than who killed Asmodean, according to Brandon.

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Toadstool Book Shop, Milford NH 7 November 2009 - Meg Lurvey reporting

He also confided that there is one thing that isn’t being discussed on any of the forums yet that will blow our minds when we read it.

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Sam Weller's Bookstore, Salt Lake City 2 November 2009 - Matt Hatch reporting

Question: You had a quote that we all talked about just recently, that there is a small detail with this secret thing. There were two quotes we put together where you told somebody from Chicago where you say this detail first comes out between books 4-6. Is that verified?
Answer: It’s been going for a long time. Somewhere in four and six the first hints of it are mentioned.
Question: But that’s not the only time it’s ever mentioned?
Answer: It’s not the only time it’s ever mentioned. It is…hints about this hidden thing appear in pretty much…in several of the books. It first, somewhere in one of those three is the beginning of where it shows up. The first hint that you get. […] I mean, it’s a small thing that means something large, that sort of thing…and you guys are very good at finding things and I’m not going to say whether you hit it or not.


FelixPax 11-16-2009 04:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by isamu237
Perusing the posts it seems we've lost a little focus.
From the BS quote, we need to find more than just something we've overlooked that will play a role in the story somehow. My impression of his statement is that this small thing is earth-shatteringly huge. Whatever it is, it has to be something that effects the climax, i.e. the Last Battle, sealing away the DO or something else of similar climatic import.

What is Earth-shatteringly huge?

Knowing that another character in the story connected with some of original divisions of the Aiel, has been "Reborn" by the Pattern. That person is Valan Luca!

How could Theoryland, miss a quote from tFOH like this one?

Quote:

Originally Posted by tFoH Chapter "A Small Room in Sienda"
Nynaeve sniffed. “With those shoulders, a good day’s work would not kill him.”

It's all but referring to Rand's vision of that earlier Luca's life during the Breaking, and his killing other humans to protect those he cares for. Both Luca's had similarly broad shoulders, as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tSR Chapter "Rhuidean"
Alijha said nothing, only ran his eyes over the four dead bodies, looked at the spears Luca was winding with blankets to carry Charlin’s body on.

And what does Valan Luca hold in his hand during a possible riot with those 3 Seanchan soldiers, but a club!

Quote:

Originally Posted by KoD book, Chapter "A Cold Medallion" - Mat's pov
Every man had a club of some sort in his hand, including Luca, in a brilliant red coat embroidered with golden stars to his turned-down boot-tops, and even the bare-chested Petra, who possessed the mildest nature of any man Mat had ever met. Petra's face was a thunderhead now, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tSR Chapter "Rhuidean"
Luca, with his shoulders half again as wide as anyone else’s; he liked to play tricks.

Tricks, Circus! :D

Just funny to think that Birgitte and Valan Luca are two souls of the Pattern, being reborn in yet another time of chaos.

What if anyone has ever considered that Valan Luca, as a 3rd person to go to the Tower of Gheneji? Not Noal, or my own prior best guess of Bayle Doman.

Moraine might have in the past possibly of met or heard of Noal of Malkeri as Jain Farstrider, as close relative of the ruling family of Cairhien in her youth. And Moiraine likely knew of Bayle Doman previously, because Nieda Sidoro past word of Bayle to Moiraine. Niedo is/was a personal agent for Moiraine in Illian previously, dating back to her nephew Bili (New Spring book). However how could Moiraine know of an ex-Tinker, turned circus leader with a bag full of tricks, Valan Luca?

It's curious that both Valan Luca and Elayne both misjudged what was truth from fiction, in each other's story, in their very first meeting (tFoH, Chapter "A Small Room in Sienda").

For all, we know Valan Luca may help save Moiraine from Eelfinn, or maybe he will help find the "song"?

isamu237 11-16-2009 02:00 PM

Very interesting Felix. Very thin, but then that's what we're looking for.
However, for this to be the small thing we're looking for I think Luca as re-born Aiel hero would have to be involved in finding the song (or something similar) rather than helping save Moiraine.
My understanding of BS's Mistborn analogy leads me look for something that DIRECTLY impacts the Light winning the Last Battle. It can't just be some little thing that makes us go, oh cool, I didn't see that coming. It has to be a, holy crap wtf without this the good guys wouldn't have won the big one.

Bonzi77 11-16-2009 02:31 PM

I have a hard time seeing Valan Luca being the small detail that saves the world.

Matoyak 11-16-2009 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bonzi77
I have a hard time seeing Valan Luca being the small detail that saves the world.

I do too...but then again, he's one of my least favorite characters...up there with Gawyn.

Belazamon 11-16-2009 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez
Question: You had a quote that we all talked about just recently, that there is a small detail with this secret thing. There were two quotes we put together where you told somebody from Chicago where you say this detail first comes out between books 4-6. Is that verified?
Answer: Itís been going for a long time. Somewhere in four and six the first hints of it are mentioned.
Question: But thatís not the only time itís ever mentioned?
Answer: Itís not the only time itís ever mentioned. It isÖhints about this hidden thing appear in pretty muchÖin several of the books. It first, somewhere in one of those three is the beginning of where it shows up. The first hint that you get. [Ö] I mean, itís a small thing that means something large, that sort of thingÖand you guys are very good at finding things and Iím not going to say whether you hit it or not.

I'm thinking this disqualifies the Tinkers' message - so far as I know, it's simply never come up again in the books.

Felix - you make my head hurt. Just so you know.

Terez 11-16-2009 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belazamon
Felix - you make my head hurt. Just so you know.

One of 3 people on the I list, along with Sodas and greatwolf/vardene. Sometimes I click 'view post', but I always regret it when I do.

Matoyak 11-16-2009 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez
One of 3 people on the I list, along with Sodas and greatwolf/vardene. Sometimes I click 'view post', but I always regret it when I do.

I personally use Camel's "Blah" script. Does the same thing, except with humor and flair ;)
(Not saying I have those people blah-d...actually, I have noone at the moment due to not having greasemonkey enabled...I can't run greasemonkey and facebook at the same time or the browser grinds to a halt.)

Yuri33 11-16-2009 05:53 PM

Felix = the exact clinical definition of flight of ideas and loose associations.

If I could confirm he has ideas of reference I could make a diagnosis over the internets.


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