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FelixPax 11-16-2009 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yuri33
Felix = the exact clinical definition of flight of ideas and loose associations.

If I could confirm he has ideas of reference I could make a diagnosis over the internets.

Flighty?

I do not see any of you, arguing against the idea that Valan Luca is a re-born soul of the pattern, previously a Da'shain Aiel named 'Luca' who was cast out as a Lost One. Nor have I seen Valan Luca even discussed in a thread anywhere in the past 1-2 years in the WoT fan forums, be it ReadandFindout, 13thDepositary, Dragonmount, or here.

Obviously Belazamon, Yuri33, Terez are not of the White Ajah.... :p

Belazamon 11-16-2009 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixPax
I do not see any of you, arguing against the idea that Valan Luca is a re-born soul of the pattern, previously a Da'shain Aiel named 'Luca' who was cast out as a Lost One.

Because, as previously mentioned, it hurts too much.

But, to be fair, I will rebut all of the logic you have thus far offered.

Perrin also has broad shoulders. Therefore, Perrin is just as likely to be Luca reborn.

Matoyak 11-16-2009 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belazamon
Because, as previously mentioned, it hurts too much.

This. Besides...you're using a name to connect one person to another as a reborn soul? Rand isn't named Lews...

FelixPax 11-16-2009 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matoyak
This. Besides...you're using a name to connect one person to another as a reborn soul? Rand isn't named Lews...

Birgitte has the very same name now too, as even Moghedien knows. Why is surprising that Hero's would have same or a similarly sounding name, as in the past?

Yuri33 11-16-2009 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
TSR, The Dedicated:
Adan lay in the sandy hollow clutching his dead son's weeping children, shielding their eyes against his ragged coat. Tears rolled down his face, too, but silently, as he peered cautiously over the edge. At five and six, Maigran and Lewin deserved the right to cry; Adan was surprised he had any tears left, himself.

Quote:

tEoTW, Strangers:
Mat shrugged. "Nothing, really. I told Adan al'Caar and some of his snot-nosed friends—Ewin Finngar and Dag Coplin – that some farmers had seen ghost hounds, breathing fire and running through the woods. They ate it up like clotted cream."
"And Master Luhhan is mad at you for that?" Rand said doubtfully.
I suppose those two are the same soul?

Quote:

TSR, The Dedicated:
He wanted to scream. He wanted to rush out there and stop them from taking his last child. Stop them, somehow. And if he did rush out? They would kill him, and take Rhea anyway. They might well kill the children, too. Some of those bodies sprawled in their own blood were small.
Quote:

LoC, Prologue:
Rhea Avin was no refugee, for all she wore a copy of a Taraboner dress in fine-woven wool, soft gray folds that molded and emphasized almost as much as Sharmad’s thinner garb. Those who survived the long trek over the mountains brought more than troubling rumors, skills previously unseen in the Two Rivers, and hands to work farms depopulated by the Trollocs. Rhea was a pretty, round-faced woman born not two miles from where the manor now stood, her dark hair in a wrist-thick braid to her waist. In the Two Rivers, girls did not braid their hair until the Women’s Circle said they were old enough to marry, whether that was fifteen or thirty, though few went beyond twenty. In fact, Rhea was a good five years older than Faile, her hair four years braided, but at the moment she looked as if she still wore it loose on her shoulders and had just realized that what had seemed a wonderful idea at the time was really the stupidest thing she could have done. For that matter, Sharmad seemed even more abashed, for all she had a year or two on Rhea; for a Domani to find herself in this situation must be humiliating. Faile wanted to slap the pair of them cross-eyed – except that a lady could not do that.
Also the same soul?

Quote:

TSR, The Dedicated:
Adan met him at the first wagon, a tall young man, his blue eyes too wary. Jonai always expected to see Willim if he looked around quickly enough. But Willim had been sent away, of course, years ago, when he began to channel no matter how hard he tried to stop. The world had too many men channeling, still; they had to send away boys who showed the signs. They had to. But he wished he had his children back. When had Esole died? So little to be laid in a hastily dug hole, wasted with sickness there was no Aes Sedai to Heal.
Quote:

WH, A Plan Succeeds:
The early-morning light in the sitting room's windows was gray, an earlier hour than the Lady Shiaine usually rose, but this morning she had been dressed while it was still full dark. The Lady Shiaine was how she thought of herself, now. Mili Skane, the saddler's daughter, was almost completely forgotten. In every way that mattered, she really was the Lady Shiaine Avarhin, and had been for years. Lord Willim Avarhin had been impoverished, reduced to living in a ramshackle farmhouse and unable to keep even that in good repair. He and his only daughter, the last of a declining line, had stayed in the country, far from anywhere their penury might be exposed, and now they were only bones buried in the forest near that farmhouse, and she was the Lady Shiaine, and if this tall, well-appointed stone house was not a manor, it still had been the property of a well-to-do merchant. She was long dead, too, after signing over her gold to her "heir." The furnishings were well made, the carpets costly, the tapestries and even the seat cushions embroidered with thread-of-gold, and the fire roared in a wide blue-veined marble fireplace. She had had the once-plain lintel carved with Avarhin's Heart and Hand row on row.
For sure this is a critical link!

Belazamon 11-16-2009 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixPax
Birgitte has the very same name now too, as even Moghedien knows. Why is surprising that Hero's would have same or a similarly sounding name, as in the past?

You do recall that Birgitte wasn't reborn, yes?

FelixPax 11-16-2009 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belazamon
Because, as previously mentioned, it hurts too much.

But, to be fair, I will rebut all of the logic you have thus far offered.

Perrin also has broad shoulders. Therefore, Perrin is just as likely to be Luca reborn.

Did Verin Sedai being Black Ajah hurt you head too?

There also is one scene within tFoH which caught my eye:

Quote:

Originally Posted by tFoH, Chapter 17 “Heading West” - Nynaeve's pov, with Thom, Juilin, Elayne, Valan Luca grouped together
Nynaeve was about to say in no uncertain terms that they would not pay his way to Ghealdan and work, too, when Thom laid a hand on her arm. Wordlessly, he bent to scuffle up pebbles from the ground and began juggling them, siz in a circle.
“I have jugglers,” Luca said. The six became eight, then ten, a dozen. “You are not bad.” The circle became two, intertwining. Luca rubbed at his chin. “Maybe I could find a use for you.”
“I can also eat fire,” Thom said, letting the stones fall, “perform with knives,” he fanned his empty hands, then seemingly pulled a pebble from Luca’s ear, “and do a few other things.”
Luca suppressed his quick grin. “That does for you, but what about the rest?”

Fire, juggling, and Luca's grin...sounds like to how RJ's connected prior scenes of Rand & the Aiel to events in tGS; except here it seems to point toward "The Tower of Gheneji".

Quote:

Originally Posted by tFoH, Chapter 17
“Do you know what happened to the Aiel at Tzora?” He nodded, and she sighed, reaching out to smooth his short hair as if he were a child. “Of course you do. You Da’shain have more courage than…. Ten thousand Aiel linking arms and singing, trying to remind a madman of who they were and who he had been, trying to turn him with their bodies and a song. Jaric Mondoran killed them. He stood there, staring as though at a puzzle, killing them, and they kept closing their lines, and singing. I am told he listened to the last Aiel for almost an hour before destroying him.

Compare this to events within Chapter 49 of tGS. :D


We also know Valan Luca has been to Third Folds Land, because of Elayne's pov:

Quote:

Originally Posted by tFoH, Chapter “A Small Room in Sienda” - Elayne's pov
Embracing saidar, she put her head out the of window—and released it again in relief. Here was something of a sort that she had seen pass through Caemlyn more than once. A traveling menagerie was camped amid afternoon shadows in a large clearing by the side of the road. A great, black-maned lion lay half-asleep in one cage that took up the entire back of a wagon, while his two consorts paced in the confines of another. A third cage stood open; in front of it a woman was making two black bears with white faces balance themselves on big red balls. Another cage held what appeared to be a large, hairy boar, except that its snout was too pointed and it had toes with claws; that came from the Aiel Waste, she knew, and was called a caper. Other cages held other animals, and brightly colored birds, but unlike any menagerie she had ever seen, this one traveled with human performers; two men were juggling ribbon-twined hoops between them, four acrobats were practicing standing on one another’s shoulders in a tall column, and a woman was feeding a dozen dogs that walked on their hind legs and did backflips for her. In the background, some other men were putting up two tall poles; she had no idea what they were for.

The caper is from the Aiel Waste, according to Elayne, so where are the brightly colored birds from? Shara, east of the Aiel Waste. I believe this too, likely to be true, why? Because the Amyrlin Seat's room under Siuan had images of similar birds described on background objects within the White Tower. And Aes Sedai did go into Shara with a 2nd Hawkwing army, which the current White Tower did know of. Objects dating from that invasion of Shara, are in the White Tower now still.

Those brightly colored birds are common in both Shara AND Seanchan areas, which implies a common native territory for the birds and/or some type of prior trade past or recently up to present between Shara and Seanchan Empire by ship.

As a Tinker, now an ex-Tinker Valan Luca would of have access across the Waste freely, unlike the majority of his Circus competitors. Even Valan Luca said his Circus was something totally new, unique. Those birds are unique, Elayne says and I believe her based on her very own background in Caemlyn.

Ancient Da’shain Aiel and now Valan Luca both wear a "caper" too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chapter “A Small Room in Sienda” - Elayne's pov
A tall, dark-haired man strode out of the camp, of all things in this hear wearing a red silk cloak that he flourished as he made an elegant bow. He was good-looking, with a well-turned leg, and very much aware of both things.

And Da'shain Aiel were tall (Rand pov), as is Valan Luca described above by Elayne presently.

Valan Luca's story has more to come, I'm sure of it.

Matoyak 11-16-2009 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belazamon
You do recall that Birgitte wasn't reborn, yes?

This. When in TAR they take the name of the previous incarnation, and she was ripped out like that. Unless you mean to say that Luca was ripped out of TAR before his time too? And while we're at it, so were all of those people in Yuri's post as well.

Belazamon 11-16-2009 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixPax
Did Verin Sedai being Black Ajah hurt you head too?

Wait, you mean Verin being EEEEVIL? Yeah, that hurt my head too. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felix
Fire, juggling, and Luca's grin...sounds like to how RJ's connected prior scenes of Rand & the Aiel to events in tGS; except here it seems to point toward "The Tower of Gheneji".

I do like how all the things you cite are things Thom is doing, not Luca.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felix
Compare this to events within Chapter 49 of tGS. :D

I've no idea what that has to do with anything, let alone Luca.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Felix
As a Tinker, now an ex-Tinker Valan Luca would of have access across the Waste freely, unlike the majority of his Circus competitors.

Other caravans are allowed to cross the Waste too, in case you've forgotten. Does the name Hadnan Kadere ring any bells?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felix
And Da'shain Aiel were tall (Rand pov), as is Valan Luca described above by Elayne presently.

You've convinced me! Valan Luca is the true Dragon Reborn. :D

Terez 11-16-2009 11:23 PM

It is obviously Mat's hat. It is a Darkfriend hat, taken from the head of a Darkfriend and sold to him for a gold crown by Lanfear. She must have placed some sort of weave on it. :) He got it in book 4, and it's been present for 'books and books' since then. BS almost said that it had been in all the books since then, but then he realized that Mat wasn't in The Path of Daggers at all, so he corrected himself. Also, it is comparable as a minor detail to the Mistborn detail. BS said it will save the day in Towers of Midnight, and Egwene had a dream of Mat, dicing with Ba'alzamon with his hat pulled low, and blood running down his face, while Thom pulled a blue stone out of a fire.

I win.

Neilbert 11-16-2009 11:24 PM

I support this idea for awesome factor alone.

Terez 11-16-2009 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ/BS
TITLE - The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 28 - Night in Hinderstap

"It was a normal day, early this year, just before the Feast of Abram. Nothing really special about it that I can remember. The weather had broken by then, though the snows hadn't come yet. A lot of us went about our normal activities the next morning, thinking nothing of it.

"The oddities were small, you see. A broken door here, a rip in someone's clothing they didn't remember. And the nightmares. We all shared them, nightmares of death and killing. A few of the women started talking, and they realized that they couldn't remember turning in the previous evening. They could remember waking, safe and comfortable in their beds, but only a few remembered actually getting into bed. Those who could remember had gone to sleep early, before sunset. For the rest of us, the late evening was just a blur."

He fell silent. Mat glanced at Thom, who did not respond. Mat could see in those blue eyes of his that he was memorizing the tale. He'd better get it right if he puts me in any ballads, Mat thought, folding his arms. And he'd better include my hat. This is a good bloody hat.

.

Belazamon 11-16-2009 11:48 PM

Oh dear lord. I fully endorse this.

FelixPax 11-17-2009 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matoyak
This. When in TAR they take the name of the previous incarnation, and she was ripped out like that. Unless you mean to say that Luca was ripped out of TAR before his time too? And while we're at it, so were all of those people in Yuri's post as well.

Mat, Perrin are similar incarnations of the wheel and they were not ripped out of the TAR. Each Heros. :p

Belazamon 11-17-2009 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixPax
Mat, Perrin are similar incarnations of the wheel and they were not ripped out of the TAR. Each Heros. :p

Now prove that their names in their previous lives were anything like Mat and Perrin.

FelixPax 11-17-2009 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez
It is obviously Mat's hat. It is a Darkfriend hat, taken from the head of a Darkfriend and sold to him for a gold crown by Lanfear. She must have placed some sort of weave on it. :) He got it in book 4, and it's been present for 'books and books' since then. BS almost said that it had been in all the books since then, but then he realized that Mat wasn't in The Path of Daggers at all, so he corrected himself. Also, it is comparable as a minor detail to the Mistborn detail. BS said it will save the day in Towers of Midnight, and Egwene had a dream of Mat, dicing with Ba'alzamon with his hat pulled low, and blood running down his face, while Thom pulled a blue stone out of a fire.

I win.

Maybe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tGS book, "The Tipsy Gelding" Mat's pov
Mat had little love for Moirraine, but he wouldn't leave her to them, no matter that she was Aes Sedai. Bloody ashes. He'd probably be tempted to ride in and save one of the Forsaken themselves if they were trapped there.
And...maybe one was. Lanfear had fallen through that same portal. Burn him, what would he do if he found her there? Would he really rescue her as well?

You and I, both maybe be correct too.

Mat should be safe in Caemlyn from the Forsaken, assuming he staying close enough to Elayne and that blunt deerskin knife ter'angreal.

But why won't of one of the Forsaken including Cyndane/Lanfear tried to of killed Mat earlier, if Mat's Hat is the missing key Brandon's referring to? Lanfear could of found Mat anything since Moridin's command in KoD,Ch3 to kill Perrin, Mat...but she has not.

One of Rand's memories of the Aiel, Charn's, shows Mierin wasn't always 'evil'...so would she try to kill Mat or not? Shrug.

Yet Noal has been used by Ishamael, now Moridin in the past...through use of Compulsion...so why wouldn't Noal expose Mat to Moridin again, when they get to Caemlyn?

FelixPax 11-17-2009 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belazamon
Now prove that their names in their previous lives were anything like Mat and Perrin.

Luca and Valan Luca physical description are alike, as is much of their behaviors. Each is an outsider...and your being highly stubborn, Belazamon. ;)

Belazamon 11-17-2009 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixPax
Luca and Valan Luca physical description are alike, as is much of their behaviors. Each is an outsider...and your being highly stubborn, Belazamon. ;)

"Tall with broad shoulders" is quite frankly not enough for me to say two people look alike.

Of course I'm being stubborn, your theory makes no sense. :p

FelixPax 11-17-2009 12:34 AM

Bela's a Horse...Luca's a Hero
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Belazamon
Wait, you mean Verin being EEEEVIL? Yeah, that hurt my head too. ;)

Verin Sedai did do evil things.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Belazamon
I do like how all the things you cite are things Thom is doing, not Luca.

That scene hints at the future, that's why I mentioned it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belazamon
I've no idea what that has to do with anything, let alone Luca.

I was making an comparison of literary methods RJ used, between the madmen during the breaking and the Da’shain AND Rand and the Tinkers in tGS. Moving on...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belazamon
Other caravans are allowed to cross the Waste too, in case you've forgotten. Does the name Hadnan Kadere ring any bells?

Honest Peddlers don't trade with Shara, they trade with the Aiel. Only Tinkers, Sea Folk, Aiel...and years ago Treekillers, Caihienins traded with Shara. But the Sea Folk only trade via the southern walled port cities, while the Tinkers can move across the Aiel Clans holds to Shara.

There's nothing in the story suggesting Peddlers have an ongoing trade with the Sharans, via the Waste. Tinkers though would be an exception.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belazamon
You've convinced me! Valan Luca is the true Dragon Reborn. :D

Only Bela would of claim this....
There are other Heros in the Pattern, besides the Dragon Reborn...as we have already seen. Valan Luca is one of them.

Weird Harold 11-17-2009 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixPax
Birgitte has the very same name now too, as even Moghedien knows. Why is surprising that Hero's would have same or a similarly sounding name, as in the past?

Birgitte's name was not Birgitte Silverbow when she thwarted Moghedien in the AOL:

Quote:

Originally Posted by eWOT/.../Birgitte
Birgitte

aka: Joana, Maerion, Teadra, Birgitte Trahelion
...
Chronology
During the War of Power, Moghedien plots to take down Lews Therin, but Teadra (Birgitte) foils her plan. Moghedien vows to make her weep forever. (TFoH,Ch25)



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