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Belazamon 11-17-2009 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixPax
Verin Sedai did do evil things.

That's not what I said. Nor is it what your theory said. :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felix
That scene hints at the future, that's why I mentioned it.

Even if we take it as "hinting at the future," it is Thom doing things that may come in handy at the Tower of Ghenjei. Unless you're suggesting Luca's ability to suppress a grin will come in handy against the Snakes and Foxes...?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felix
I was making an comparison of literary methods RJ used, between the madmen during the breaking and the Da’shain AND Rand and the Tinkers in tGS. Moving on...

Um, okay. Luca has never met Rand, and wasn't with the Tinkers in tGS. So there's no connection at all between the scenes, despite so-called "comparison of literary methods." So again I'm gonna have to ask - what's the relevance?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felix
Honest Peddlers don't trade with Shara, they trade with the Aiel. Only Tinkers, Sea Folk, Aiel...and years ago Treekillers, Caihienins traded with Shara...

... There's nothing in the story suggesting Peddlers have an ongoing trade with the Sharans, via the Waste.

Close but no cigar.
Quote:

Originally Posted by BWB ch.16
Land-based trade used to be largely monopolized by Cairhien, because of the Aiel gift of safe passage, but since the Aiel War, however, most overland trade has been limited to the Aiel, and an occasional merchant friendly to the Aiel.

I wouldn't even bring it up, except this particular part of your theory seems predicated on the fact that no-one but Aiel and Tinkers have any chance of trading with Shara. That is patently false.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felix
Only Bela would of claim this....
There are other Heros in the Pattern, besides the Dragon Reborn...as we have already seen. Valan Luca is one of them.

Based on what proof, other than broad shoulders? :p

FelixPax 11-17-2009 04:30 AM

Luca's "a blind idiot"...fool!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Belazamon
That's not what I said. Nor is it what your theory said. :D

Verin was a Black Ajah for a very long time, and she did do evil things. :D


Quote:

Originally Posted by Belazamon
Even if we take it as "hinting at the future," it is Thom doing things that may come in handy at the Tower of Ghenjei. Unless you're suggesting Luca's ability to suppress a grin will come in handy against the Snakes and Foxes...?

Riddle me this, Bela, why is Luca bought up in a quote like this one below in tFoH:

Quote:

Originally Posted by tFoH book Chapter 37 - Birgitte speaking to Nynaeve
She had said would make her own bow, too, as soon as she could. Luca’s she called “a knot-riddled branch broken from a cross-grained tree by a blind idiot in the middle of the night.”

Tinkers don't grow up shooting arrows, and Luca was one, too. Why? Because they all Vegetarians. Bows are for hunting animals or are used in combat.... Archers know about how to cut trees down, and what to do to make a quality bow; while Tinkers are clueless about cutting off branches or trees to cure wood for a bow.

And yet, this one quote seems to suggest that Luca is an adventurer willing to take chances, risks for a reward...the very same behavioral traits of individuals who's memories were given to Mat by the Eelfinn.

The storyline has moved into the blackest of periods, the middle of the night...as Liandrin's own thoughts expressed too (tGH book)...Valan Luca is just the person to take a risk as a Hero in the middle of the night, to save an unknown Aes Sedai at the Tower of Ghenjei.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Bela
Um, okay. Luca has never met Rand, and wasn't with the Tinkers in tGS. So there's no connection at all between the scenes, despite so-called "comparison of literary methods." So again I'm gonna have to ask - what's the relevance?

The point was "how" RJ ties together his foreshadowing in the early books to the actual future events in later books. There are more examples, of this we can explore in other threads if you'd prefer to continue this?



Quote:

Originally Posted by Bela
I wouldn't even bring it up, except this particular part of your theory seems predicated on the fact that no-one but Aiel and Tinkers have any chance of trading with Shara. That is patently false.

You might have forgotten Thom's own search for knowledge and new stories of the lands beyond the Waste, earlier in the series...as expressed to Elayne on a Sea Folk raker ship on the way to Tanchico. Thom found no new news from Cairhien nor anybody he asked...after the Aiel War...until Elayne told him about the Sea Folk Cargomaster's original destination.

As former Court Bard of Andor, Thom would of known if Peddlers traded with the lands beyond the Waste, if it existed anywhere in the Eastern nations of the Westlands. Let alone Arad Doman, where Rodel Ituralde knew of Thom (tGS book)

I did mention the Sea Folk previously in threads here and elsewhere, trading with Shara...(likely Seanchan too)... but Valan Luca is an ex-Tinker, not a Sea Folk background. But yes, he does have Sea Folk acrobats in his circus, which is highly curious indeed. Maybe Valan Luca rescued some enslaved Sea Folk in Shara for all we know? Then become a 'Lost One' because of how that occurred? Hopefully, the story will explain more about Valan Luca's background.

Matoyak 11-17-2009 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez
It is obviously Mat's hat. It is a Darkfriend hat, taken from the head of a Darkfriend and sold to him for a gold crown by Lanfear. She must have placed some sort of weave on it. :) He got it in book 4, and it's been present for 'books and books' since then. BS almost said that it had been in all the books since then, but then he realized that Mat wasn't in The Path of Daggers at all, so he corrected himself. Also, it is comparable as a minor detail to the Mistborn detail. BS said it will save the day in Towers of Midnight, and Egwene had a dream of Mat, dicing with Ba'alzamon with his hat pulled low, and blood running down his face, while Thom pulled a blue stone out of a fire.

I win.

That's awesome. And it actually has a chance of being correct! It also makes at least a bit of sense! (unlike...other...ideas being presented) Which, of course, is always a bonus here.

FelixPax 11-17-2009 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matoyak
That's awesome. And it actually has a chance of being correct! It also makes at least a bit of sense! (unlike...other...ideas being presented) Which, of course, is always a bonus here.

If Terez is correct, why hasn't Cyndane/Lanfear already used this "marker" on Mat's Hat to hunt him down after KoD, Chapter 3, when Moridin's command was given??

If Lanfear is internally resisting Moridin's commands to kill either Perrin & Mat that would make more sense.

Yet Noal has been under Compulsion, and suggested finding the Tower of Ghenjei somewhere in the Shadow Coast.... Where Trollocs are currently hinted at being, because of the unblocked Waygates, and that Trollocs attack on close to Ebou Dar in tGS Prologue.

------------------------------------------------

If reborn Heros are a type of corrective mechanism for the Pattern, Valan Luca has already attracted Aludra, Uno and Cerandin independently. Besides attracting and helping Elayne, Nynaeve, Thom, Juilin once, and later Mat's whole group escape out of Ebou Dar with Tuon.

Without Valan Luca would Salidar Aes Sedai side, of later gained the aid of experienced heavy cavalry of the Shienarians? Nynaeve never would of seen Uno. Let alone Valan Luca hiring an Illuminator, Aludra out of Tarabon, who Mat meets again through the Luca's Circus show of wonders. Sheltering Cerandin, gained Suroth's favor and a reward of horses with valuable exemption...all which later helps Mat escape Ebou Dar with Tuon and company.

I can understand why some, might not care for Valan Luca at all. However neither Valan Luca nor Elayne was telling the whole truth to each other, when they each met the first time--that created uncertainty, some distrust, and bad feelings going both ways the second time they met up. Nynaeve's temper, behavior didn't help things, either. Luca's a show hound, who loves attention and who just happens to be a reborn "Hero".


Want a foreshadowing event?

Valan Luca has already once, attempted to "save" a missing woman in an unsafe place with "two men with shoulders like s'Gandin quarrymen"-- (tFoH, Chapter "The Wheel Weaves" - Birgitte's words) -- that time it was Nynaeve, within a chaotic warring city mobbed by the Prophet forces, White Cloaks. Foreshadowing of the Tower of Ghenjei? Yes, indeed indirectly.

Bonzi77 11-17-2009 09:12 AM

Where are you getting that Luca is a reborn hero?

GonzoTheGreat 11-17-2009 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bonzi77
Where are you getting that Luca is a reborn hero?

Because he has the same name as another Luca, who wasn't known as a Hero either. That's gotta be something more than coincidence, almost. Besides, when parents name their children, they carefully take into account their (unknown, of course) former lives.

Matoyak 11-17-2009 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat
Because he has the same name as another Luca, who wasn't known as a Hero either. That's gotta be something more than coincidence, almost. Besides, when parents name their children, they carefully take into account their (unknown, of course) former lives.

You mustn't forget that they both are tall with broad shoulders. :)

Bonzi77 11-17-2009 10:50 AM

This dawned on me in the Verin's note thread, but was there ever any discussion about Moiraine's implication that Aes Sedai can't write a lie? She only nodded, and didn't speak a word, so that might not be true. Given that there's a lot of important information being passed around in notes: Moraine to Rand, Moraine to Thom, Verin to Mat, Verin to Egwene, this could end up being a fairly major plot point.

Logically, it doesn't make sense that the "speak no word that is untrue" oath would be so broadly applied when the others are not.

Terez 11-17-2009 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez
It is obviously Mat's hat. It is a Darkfriend hat, taken from the head of a Darkfriend and sold to him for a gold crown by Lanfear. She must have placed some sort of weave on it. :) He got it in book 4, and it's been present for 'books and books' since then. BS almost said that it had been in all the books since then, but then he realized that Mat wasn't in The Path of Daggers at all, so he corrected himself. Also, it is comparable as a minor detail to the Mistborn detail. BS said it will save the day in Towers of Midnight, and Egwene had a dream of Mat, dicing with Ba'alzamon with his hat pulled low, and blood running down his face, while Thom pulled a blue stone out of a fire.

I win.

Further clarification - Mat was dicing with Ba'alzamon in a different one. In this one, he's just dicing, with the hat and the blood and all. The dream was in book 5. :)

Maybe Lanfear put a weave on his hat that prevents the 'Finns from looking in his head and knowing he's coming! :D He didn't get the hat till after Rhuidean...

ShadowbaneX 11-17-2009 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez
It is obviously Mat's hat. It is a Darkfriend hat, taken from the head of a Darkfriend and sold to him for a gold crown by Lanfear. She must have placed some sort of weave on it. :) He got it in book 4, and it's been present for 'books and books' since then. BS almost said that it had been in all the books since then, but then he realized that Mat wasn't in The Path of Daggers at all, so he corrected himself. Also, it is comparable as a minor detail to the Mistborn detail. BS said it will save the day in Towers of Midnight, and Egwene had a dream of Mat, dicing with Ba'alzamon with his hat pulled low, and blood running down his face, while Thom pulled a blue stone out of a fire.

I win.

You also forgot that Mat's hat supposedly protects him from enemy attacks.

FelixPax 11-17-2009 12:48 PM

Valan Luca...Gaidal Cain missing, Olver appears later
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat
Because he has the same name as another Luca, who wasn't known as a Hero either. That's gotta be something more than coincidence, almost. Besides, when parents name their children, they carefully take into account their (unknown, of course) former lives.

The first Luca was a hero, he selflessly risked his own life to saving his friends life, from village kipnappers (Rand's pov).

Both 'first Luca' and 'Valan Luca' hold the very same judgment and stereotype of village people: thieves, be it cutpurses or kidnappers.




-----------------------------------------------

Speaking of other small notes spanning the books four & six:

I recently noticed that Gaidal Cain missing, says Birgitte as of (TFoH, Ch.14); and Olver shows up (LoC,Ch5) with Mat.

The tav'eran element is strange, and I don't understand it. But I've heard from interviews that Rand wasn't immediately ta'veren at birth, even considering his blood lines and timing of birth at Dragonmount. So my question is when do individuals typically become tav'eren?

Would Olver be Gaidal Cain reborn?
He's ugly, short, likes to smile, loves to flirt with older women, is learning the sword...and Birgitte did already seem to take care of him a bit in Ebou Dar.

Is Olver connected prophecy to "The two must be as one"? Seanchan Empire to Randlands?

Quote:

Originally Posted by tFoH
• “He will need me, Elayne, and I will not be there. He always has more courage than is good for him; I always must supply him with caution. Worse, he will wander, searching for me, not knowing what he is looking for, not knowing why he feels incomplete. We are always together, Elayne. Two halves of a whole.” (tFoH, Ch. “A New Name”)

The only reason this even popped into my mind, is this bizarre bold sentence above by Birgitte to Elayne...and somehow I thought of Mat, Tuon, Elayne, Birgitte all caring about the boy, Olver. It's a common bond.
And who has been watching Olver mostly during the trip northern towards Andor? Juilin and Amathera.

I've not really figured out Amathera's role in the story going forwards...but there is one point in the story where, Elayne has a Dream of Rand and all women who will share him; just after Birgitte tells her to go to sleep on the same day she was ripped out of the TAR:

Quote:

Originally Posted by tFoH, Ch. “Chapter “A New Name”
The dream was a pleasant one, if odd. Rand knelt before her, and she put a hand on his head and bonded him as her Warder. One of her Warders; she would have to choose Green now, with Birgitte. There were other women there, faces changing between one glance and the next. Nynaeve, Min, Moiraine, Aviendha, Berelain, Amathera, Liandrin, others she did not know. Whoever they were, she knew that she had to share him with them, because in the dream she was certain that that was what Min had viewed. She was not sure how she felt about that—some of those faces she wanted to claw to shreds—but if it was fated by the Pattern, it would have to be. Yet she would have one thing of him the others could never have, the bond between Warder and Aes Sedai.

Terez, Bela probably will have a fit about Olver being the re-born soul of Gaidal Cain... :):D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winter's Heart, Chapter 12 - Min's viewing of Birgitte
Auras danced around her and images flickered, more than Min had ever seen around anyone, thousands it seemed, cascading over one another. Those multitudes of images and auras flashed by too quickly for her to make out any clearly, but she was certain they indicated more adventures than a woman could have in one lifetime. Strangely, some were connected to an ugly man who was older than she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man.

The curious part of Olver is his character humanizes Mat in Tuon's eyes, during the ride north with Valan Luca's circus.

Ready for incoming fire...Olver = Gaidal Cain is a raw idea...so? ;)

Davian93 11-17-2009 12:57 PM

~takes deep breath~

Olver IS NOT Gaidal Cain. RJ debunked that theory on numerous occasions. Its not true, it won't ever be true. Its not gonna happen.

FelixPax 11-17-2009 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davian93
~takes deep breath~

Olver IS NOT Gaidal Cain. RJ debunked that theory on numerous occasions. Its not true, it won't ever be true. Its not gonna happen.

Okay, I can live with it, Davian...if RJ has said so, in the past. Just been digging for hints within books 4,5,6 lately...and Olver, Gaidal Cain popped up as outliers. How did RJ express the debunking though? I asked because Rand's thought on soul rebirth in aCoS, mention multiple souls being combined into a new person. Sort of sounded like a sausage factory in the heavens....

Bonzi77 11-17-2009 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixPax
Okay, I can live with it, Davian...if RJ has said so, in the past. Just been digging for hints within books 4,5,6 lately...and Olver, Gaidal Cain popped up as outliers.

Even if he hadn't debunked it, basic logic dictates that he couldn't be. Olver is old enough that he would have already been born when we meet Gaidal in TAR. Time flows differently in TAR, but it doesn't go backwards. [/White]

Terez 11-17-2009 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowbaneX
You also forgot that Mat's hat supposedly protects him from enemy attacks.

Wat?

FelixPax 11-17-2009 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bonzi77
Even if he hadn't debunked it, basic logic dictates that he couldn't be. Olver is old enough that he would have already been born when we meet Gaidal in TAR. Time flows differently in TAR, but it doesn't go backwards. [/White]

That's why I asked about when does a Ta'veren essence apply?

In Rand, Mat, Perrin cases it wasn't expressed at birth but later, as I vaguely understand it. My point was Gain disappeared and later Olver popped up. Of course, Davian93 is likely right, considering he's been around these boards far longer than I.


--------------------------------------------------

Moving back to Valan Luca, and hints of the Tower of Ghenjei, Nynaeve baits Valan when she rejects his offer to have his Children...and err...marriage:

Quote:

Originally Posted by tFoH, Ch. "The Price of a Ship"
My enemies, the ones you dismiss so easily, would make you take off your skin and dance in your bones, and you would be grateful if that was all they did.

:eek: You know where that sounds like...*Finns :eek:

Bonzi77 11-17-2009 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixPax
That's why I asked about when does a Ta'veren essence apply?

In Rand, Mat, Perrin cases it wasn't expressed at birth but later, as I vaguely understand it. My point was Gain disappeared and later Olver popped up. Of course, Davian93 is likely right, considering he's been around these boards far longer than I.

I think you're misunderstanding the way ta'veren and rebirth works on a very basic level.

Terez 11-17-2009 01:48 PM

Davian's tenure has nothing to do with why he's right.

No offense, Dav. ;)

One Armed Gimp 11-17-2009 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixPax
How did RJ express the debunking though?

As if the community were dim witted for entertaining this idea for so long.

Quote:

Q: Is Olver Gaidal Cain?
RJ: No. I didn't really think that this would last as long as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason for being there besides being a red herring, though.
I like how you switched topics from one illogical theory to another equally illogical, and very widely known as debunked, theory.

Belazamon 11-17-2009 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixPax
Verin was a Black Ajah for a very long time, and she did do evil things. :D

Too bad that isn't exactly what your conclusion was. :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felix
Riddle me this, Bela, why is Luca bought up in a quote like this one below in tFoH:

I'm going to go with "because they were hiding out in his circus, so it would make sense for them to interact with him on many occasions." :p

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felix
Tinkers don't grow up shooting arrows, and Luca was one, too.

By your logic, the vast majority of the nobility should therefore be composed of ex-Tinkers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felix
Valan Luca is just the person to take a risk as a Hero in the middle of the night, to save an unknown Aes Sedai at the Tower of Ghenjei.

If you think Valan Luca is the kind of man who will risk his neck for that sort of thing - well, let's just say we have wildly divergent readings of his character. :rolleyes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felix
The point was "how" RJ ties together his foreshadowing in the early books to the actual future events in later books. There are more examples, of this we can explore in other threads if you'd prefer to continue this?

If it would make you feel better, I suppose. None of your answers to date have succeeded in clarifying this point even remotely for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felix
As former Court Bard of Andor, Thom would of known if Peddlers traded with the lands beyond the Waste, if it existed anywhere in the Eastern nations of the Westlands.

But we know that it does. That doesn't necessarily mean that any new stories would come to light, however, since peddlers and caravans who make it to Shara through the Waste are only allowed to trade in walled-off cities where everyone lies to them about everything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felix
Quote:

Originally Posted by tFoH, Ch. "The Price of a Ship"
My enemies, the ones you dismiss so easily, would make you take off your skin and dance in your bones, and you would be grateful if that was all they did.

You know where that sounds like...

Too bad they were talking about the Forsaken, rather than the 'Finns they've never met. ;)


Quote:

Originally Posted by Felix
Terez, Bela probably will have a fit about Olver being the re-born soul of Gaidal Cain...

I'd probably have more of a fit about it if it hadn't already been completely and utterly debunked. :cool:


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