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FelixPax 11-18-2009 04:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belazamon
Do you really need that long of an explanation in the creed itself, though? Might be easier/less intimidating to start a thread explaining the rationale and just keep a link to it handy. :)

Mat's Hat protects him from the *Finn? How? What does your creed, Terez, claim was done to Mat's Hat by Lanfear?

It's doubtful that Mat's Hat still has an action marking on it, from Lanfear, considers how that weave operates according to Elayne:

Quote:

Originally Posted by KoD book, Chapter "New Follower"
The weave she laid on Hark's belt buckle, his boots, hit coat and breeches, was somewhat akin to that for the Warder bond, though much less complex. It would fade from the clothing and boots in a few weeks, or months at best, but metal would hold a Finder forever. "I've laid a weave on you, Master Hark. Now you can be found wherever you are." In truth, only she would be able to find him--a Finder was attuned to the one who wove it--but there was no reason to tell him that. "Just to be sure that you are indeed loyal."

So is Cyndane able to use a Finder created by her previous bodily form, Lanfear? Is Cyndane resisting Moridin's orders or not? And most importantly, does Mat's Hat have any metal on it?

Even Moiraine in tEoW created a 'Finder' on metal coins for three boys.

As for protecting Mat, wouldn't that be a property of his Eelfinn gained ter'angreal necklace? We know from RJ, that it already protects Mat's Dreams.


----------------------------------------------------

Whereas, the timing of Mat's stay and delay in Caemlyn will enable Valan Luca's circus to arrive in Caemlyn before Mat goes to the Tower of Ghenjei. Thanks to Verin demand, Mat's desire to create Dragon Eggs, and Luca's desire to entertain. In doing so, Valan Luca will finally learn the truth of Elayne, Nynaeve stories dating back to tFoH book and who their enemies include...and Elayne can learn more about Shara from Valan Luca prior trips there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tFoH, Ch. "A Small Room in Sienda" - Elayne's pov and Valan Luca replying
"Boar-horses, Master Luca?" Elayne said. "Where do they come from?"
"Giant boar-horses, my Lady" was the ready reply, "from fabled Shara, where I myself led an expedition into a wilderness full of strange civilizations and stranger sights to trap them. It would fascinate me to tell you of them. Gigantic people twice the size of Ogier." He made a grand gestures to illustrate. "Beings with no heads. Birds big enough to carry off a full-grown bull. Snakes that can swallow a man. Cities made of solid. Descend, my Lady, and let me tell you."

Sure hints at trade between Seanchan and Shara, because of the "Birds big enough to carry of a full-grown bull," sounds more like a Seanchan to'raken. I don't think Valan Luca lied about going to Shara...but is the native origin of Giant bore-horses in Shara, not Seanchan?


Valan Luca should be far more important in the next two books. And the evidence seems to show that he is indeed a Hero, in the story.


And for those who doubt Valan Luca is of a Tinker origin and distance Da'Shain Aiel origin, two more piece of evidences:

Quote:

Originally Posted by tFoH book, Ch.37 - Nynaeve pov
Few of the men she had seen here were armed with more than a belt knife, but he wore a sword to his back, the long hilt rising about his shoulder.

Here Nynaeve describes the Valan Luca workers as all but lacking swords, and contrasts this to an exception, which happens to be the Shienarian Uno. Up to this point in the story, Nynaeve had not met any Tinkers or Traveling People in the Westlands, so she's not really understanding that most of Valan Luca's circus workers are Tinkers, Ex-Tinkers, or Sea Folk peoples (see acrobats).

How Valan Luca dresses himself, and his own Wagon are highly similar to that of Traveling People as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tFoH book, Chapter "A Small Room in Sienda"
Not that I think Master Luca would accept work that didn't allow him to wear that cape

Capes were common dress for Da'shain Aiel, according to Rand's Aiel visions of the their past history...and Valan Luca wears one now.

GonzoTheGreat 11-18-2009 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowbaneX
one of the books someone wonders why Mat wears no armour going into combat and suggests that his hat might be enchanted by Aes Sedai or something...or perhaps I'm just making stuff up again. Who knows?

I do, of course. :p

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoC, Chapter 5, A Different Dance
The soldiers recognized Mat right away, of course, and many raised cheers, even men too far away to see more than his broad-brimmed hat and odd spear. Those picked him out as clearly as any noble’s sigil. He had heard all the rumors about why he disdained armor and helmet; there were all sorts, from mad bravery to the claim that only a weapon forged by the Dark One himself could kill him. Some said the hat had been given him by Aes Sedai, and as long as he wore it nothing could kill him. The fact was it was an ordinary hat, and he wore it because it gave good shade. And because it was a good reminder to stay clear of anywhere he might need helmet and armor. The tales circulating about his spear, with that inscription that few even among the nobles could read were more extravagant still. None could match the truth, though. That raven-marked blade had been made by Aes Sedai during the War of the Shadow, before the Breaking; it never needed sharpening, and he doubted he could break it if he tried.


Terez 11-18-2009 07:27 AM

lol, it's already been quoted guys...

FelixPax 11-18-2009 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belazamon
Too bad that isn't exactly what your conclusion was. :D

My conclusion included Verin Sedai character ending, when the Black Ajah was purged too...that did happen. Who else claimed this at Theoryland? No one else I know of.

Of course, yes I thought Alviarin and her cipher keys would be captured...so I was incorrectly on the methods...Verin did it, not Alviarin in the end.

There was no Pink,Purple Ajah either...as I claimed too...only one BA who become a turncoat, not a group of them as Leigh Butler claimed years ago.

My conclusion included that Verin Sedai's character created within WoT series was a master piece, as well...did yours?

Am I unhappy Verin Sedai helped the Light within the last hour of her life? No, not at all. Loved every bit of her scenes. One of my more favor characters in the series, more than Rand up to this point. :)


Quote:

Originally Posted by Bela
By your logic, the vast majority of the nobility should therefore be composed of ex-Tinkers.

Tinkers currently and Da'shain Aiel of the Age of Legends did not use "bows":

Quote:

Originally Posted by tSR, Chapter "Dedicated" - Rand's pov
It was not the first time he had seen that, or dead Aiel, but this time he could not care. The men with the swords and spear and bows, the men who had done the killing, were loading those empty wagons. With women. He watched Rhea, his daughter, shoved up into a wagon box with the other, crowded together like animals by laughing killers. The last of his children.

Da'shain Aiel see people with Swords, Spear, and Bows are not one of themselves, but "Others". The current Age Tinkers, Traveling People do not use bows are all, to do so is against 'The Way of the Leaf'.

That also helps explain why Valan Luca has a horrible eye for making bows (Birgitte's judgment), he likely never was taught how to make a bow as a child, teen growing up in a Tinker environment.

Another hint of this Tinker background of Valan Luca's, is his wagon:

Quote:

Originally Posted by KoD book, Chapter "Dragons' Eggs" - Mat's pov
Now and then they saw a caravan of Tinkers, too, their boxy wagons as bright as anything in the show except for Luca's wagon.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Bela
If you think Valan Luca is the kind of man who will risk his neck for that sort of thing - well, let's just say we have wildly divergent readings of his character. :rolleyes:

Valan Luca did take the Hunter's Oath to find the Horn of Valere in the Great Square of Tammaz (Illian), that's not a cowardly act but an action of an adventurer.

WinespringBrother 11-18-2009 08:50 AM

Does Mat wear his hat indoors? Like when he was telling everyone about his adventurs in Finnland after hearing what was in Thom's letter?

Terez 11-18-2009 09:05 AM

Yup, he pretty much always wears it.

One Armed Gimp 11-18-2009 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixPax
That also helps explain why Valan Luca has a horrible eye for making bows (Birgitte's judgment), he likely never was taught how to make a bow as a child, teen growing up in a Tinker environment.

Luca has no problem taking on the challenge of an archery competition, so I doubt he has as little experience as you seem to think. Also he does claim he is accounted a fair shot and people bet for him to win. Birgitte not liking his bow doesn't mean much, I imagine she has some pretty high standards.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixPax
Valan Luca did take the Hunter's Oath to find the Horn of Valere in the Great Square of Tammaz (Illian), that's not a cowardly act but an action of an adventurer.

I doubt it given the way Luca talks about being there:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Valan Luca
And I suppose you call yourself Birgitte. What are you? One of those idiots hunting the Horn of Valere? Even if the thing exists, what chance any one of you will find it more than another?

You have a good imagination it seems, but some good logic and quick searches can help you channel that imagination in more constructive ways.

ShadowbaneX 11-18-2009 12:50 PM

In a related issue, what about Taim's lack of sword and Dragon and the blue dragon's entwining his coat? Anything that that we can run with?

Davian93 11-18-2009 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowbaneX
In a related issue, what about Taim's lack of sword and Dragon and the blue dragon's entwining his coat? Anything that that we can run with?

Other than the fact that Rand has no balls and never even questions all the stupid things he lets Taim get away with. For a guy that's a control freak on everything else, he sure gives Taim a ton of rope.

WinespringBrother 11-18-2009 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowbaneX
In a related issue, what about Taim's lack of sword and Dragon and the blue dragon's entwining his coat? Anything that that we can run with?

Probably just Taim's paranoia - maybe he thinks Rand put Finders on them.

Belazamon 11-18-2009 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixPax
There was no Pink,Purple Ajah either...as I claimed too...only one BA who become a turncoat, not a group of them as Leigh Butler claimed years ago.

You have full credit for your evidence that Verin was BA, I will defend that to the death. That's not what I was actually disputing - I don't remember any part of your theory that hypothesized that Verin was actually a good guy who had infiltrated the Black Ajah.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felix
Tinkers currently and Da'shain Aiel of the Age of Legends did not use "bows":

The logical fallacy that I am pointing out is that there are many people in Randland who do not use bows. How many Aes Sedai have we seen using them? Has Min? Egwene? Weiramon?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felix
That also helps explain why Valan Luca has a horrible eye for making bows (Birgitte's judgment), he likely never was taught how to make a bow as a child, teen growing up in a Tinker environment.

As someone else pointed out already, you are taking Birgitte's word for it. Seeing as how she is the preeminent archer in the Pattern, her standards are going to be immeasurably higher than anyone else's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felix
Another hint of this Tinker background of Valan Luca's, is his wagon:

Perhaps you are unaware that circuses are quite well-known for bright colors and gaudy tents and suchlike?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felix
Valan Luca did take the Hunter's Oath to find the Horn of Valere in the Great Square of Tammaz (Illian), that's not a cowardly act but an action of an adventurer.

I fear you misread that section:
Quote:

Originally Posted by tFoH ch.36
"What are you? One of those idiots hunting the Horn of Valere? Even if the thing exists, what chance any one of you will find it more than another? I was in Illian when the Hunters' oaths were given, and there were thousands in the Great Square of Tammaz."


FelixPax 11-18-2009 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by One Armed Gimp
Luca has no problem taking on the challenge of an archery competition, so I doubt he has as little experience as you seem to think. Also he does claim he is accounted a fair shot and people bet for him to win.

Only because Birgitte gives Luca an insulting challenge, drops his wager from a 'gold mark' to a 'silver penny', calls him a pretty man, and questions his courage, 'afraid'?

He's telling the 'truth' at being a fair shot, but relative to what? The circus folks?

Those people in Luca's circus are mostly of a Tinkers or Sea Folk background and he's their paymaster. How much need is there to use a bow on a ship or on a Sea Folk Island? Or among the Tinkers wagons through a forest? Little to none.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tFOH, Chapter “A New Name” - Elayne's pov
“I am an archer, pretty man,” Birgitte broke in firmly. “Fetch a bow, and I will outshoot you or anyone you name, a hundred crown gold on your one.” Elayne expected Nynaeve to yelp—it was they who would have to cover the wager if Birgitte lost, and whatever she claimed, Elayne did not think Birgitte could be fully recovered already—yet all Nynaeve did was close her eyes briefly and draw a deep, long breath.
“Women!” Luca growled. Thom and Juilin did not have to look as if they agreed.
“You are a fine match for the Lady Morelin and Nana, or whatever their names are.” He swept his silk cloak in a wide gesture at the surrounding hustle of men and horses. “It may have escaped your keen eye, Birgitte, but I have a show to get underway, and my rivals are already draining Samara of coin like the cutpurses they are.”
Birgitte smiled, a slight curving of her lips. “Are your afraid, pretty man? We can make your side a silver penny.”
Elayne thought Luca might have apoplexy from the color that crept into his face. His neck suddenly looked too big for his collar. “I will fetch my bow,” he almost hissed. “You can work off the hundred marks with your face painted, or cleaning cages for all I care!”



Quote:

Originally Posted by One Armed Gimp
Birgitte not liking his bow doesn't mean much, I imagine she has some pretty high standards.

I doubt any of the Two Rivers folks would of liked Luca's bow, either: Tam, Perrin, Mat, Rand, Jori Congar et la. They seem to know how to make or select a good bow, Valan doesn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by One Armed Gimp
I doubt it given the way Luca talks about being there

Actually, your probably right about this one...my error. Sounds like Luca was helping to entertain all the people in the Great Square of Tammaz, Illian-after a re-read. Luca does love attention & applause, which does fit here, as one reason he was in Illian then.

Belazamon 11-18-2009 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixPax
Those people in Luca's circus are mostly of a Tinkers or Sea Folk background

You keep stating this as fact. So far as I've seen, the only "evidence" you've offered is the fact that most of them don't carry swords...?

Quote:

Originally Posted by tFoH ch.36
“I will fetch my bow,” he almost hissed.

So he didn't make a bow on the spot, or borrow it, or something - he actually owns his own bow. ;)

Yuri33 11-19-2009 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowbaneX
In a related issue, what about Taim's lack of sword and Dragon and the blue dragon's entwining his coat? Anything that that we can run with?

As a former false dragon, he's obviously jealous of Rand and what he represents. It's probably why he turned to the Shadow. This is very similar to Demandred's story, and largely why Taimandred was so popular. To wear the sword and dragon pins is to merely be another asha'man. He's obviously not the Dragon Reborn, but he wears dragons on his sleeve to "symbolize" his authority. He calls himself the M'Hael, which doesn't simply translate to leader, it implies something much stronger.

FelixPax 11-19-2009 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belazamon
You keep stating this as fact. So far as I've seen, the only "evidence" you've offered is the fact that most of them don't carry swords...?

Nynaeve's pov in tFoH describes the acrobats as shirtless and in tight pants akin to Sea Folk clothing styles. That's beside the tattoos they have in a Sea Folk manner.

Mat's pov describes Petra Anhill "as the mildest nature of any man Mat had ever met." (KoD Ch.7) Which does fit the behavioral traits of Tinker individuals, Perrin, Egwene & Elyas met in tEoW book.

The Luca's Circus has wagons which are in Tinker styles as well.

Look at their clothes, for god sakes--Bela.

Nynaeve's pov describes animals from almost everywhere in the Westlands; Elayne's pov describes a bear from the Aiel Waste; Mat's pov has Luca describing Tar Valon in great detail; and Luca's tells Elayne (pov) that he led a trip to Shara. Only Tinkers, Sea Folk and Aiel have access to Shara from the Westlands, in the last twenty years commonly (peddlers don't trade with Shara, but with the Aiel themselves, according to Thom's pov).

Valan Luca was a Tinker at one time, as was all the people who went with him to Shara.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belazamon
So he didn't make a bow on the spot, or borrow it, or something - he actually owns his own bow. ;)

So, what's your point? Luca's an Ex-Tinker.

FelixPax 11-19-2009 03:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yuri33
As a former false dragon, he's obviously jealous of Rand and what he represents. It's probably why he turned to the Shadow.

Your missing Taim's connection to Ishamael's original plan as detailed by a captured Joiya Byir to Egwene & Nynaeve within the Stone (tSR, Chapter "Questioners").

Taim was a darkfriend before Rand ever was found by the Shadow in Fal Dara. Taim's role was planned years in advance by the Shadow and Ishamael himself. If they couldn't turn Rand to the Shadow's side, they were going to Blacken the Dragon Reborn's very name and create a person who claims, acts like the Dragon Reborn in the mass public's mind.

That's why Ishamael had the Black Ajah arrange a prison break for Taim in route to Tar Valon. Taim is the Shadow's way of destroying the Dragon Reborn's identity and pull the Borderlander southern off the Blight border.

"Jealous of Rand", as the reason for Taim turning to the Shadow? No way.

Davian93 11-19-2009 08:48 AM

Quote:

Your missing Taim's connection to Ishamael's original plan as detailed by a captured Joiya Byir to Egwene & Nynaeve within the Stone (tSR, Chapter "Questioners").

Taim was a darkfriend before Rand ever was found by the Shadow in Fal Dara. Taim's role was planned years in advance by the Shadow and Ishamael himself. If they couldn't turn Rand to the Shadow's side, they were going to Blacken the Dragon Reborn's very name and create a person who claims, acts like the Dragon Reborn in the mass public's mind.

That's why Ishamael had the Black Ajah arrange a prison break for Taim in route to Tar Valon. Taim is the Shadow's way of destroying the Dragon Reborn's identity and pull the Borderlander southern off the Blight border.

"Jealous of Rand", as the reason for Taim turning to the Shadow? No way.
Much of that is what we call CONJECTURE. Please label it as such in your posts. There is a difference between your opinion and what can and has been proven to be true in the books.

We highly believe that Taim is a Darkfriend. Its 99% probable. However, we have no idea when and how he became one. Joiya's "confession" might or might not have been true. Considering she was still able to channel and thus UNABLE to betray the DO due to her BA Oaths, I wouldn't use her supposed confession as proof of anything.

Its just as probable that Taim was freed and then turned by 13 Myrdraal/13 Dreadlords than anything. Actually, that's a damn good possibility and it could very well be the "little thing" that BS mentioned happening from Books 4-6.

Or he could have turned after realizing that Rand is a prick that treated him like crap. The thing is that we don't know.

One Armed Gimp 11-19-2009 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davian93
Much of that is what we call CONJECTURE. Please label it as such in your posts. There is a difference between your opinion and what can and has been proven to be true in the books.

Conjecture as in Valan Luca is Luca reborn, a Hero of the Horn and ex-Tinker? :rolleyes:

Spasmodean 11-19-2009 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by One Armed Gimp
Conjecture as in Valan Luca is Luca reborn, a Hero of the Horn and ex-Tinker? :rolleyes:

Yeah I'm getting kind of sick of this clogging up threads with only happenstance and implication trotted out as proof.

Davian93 11-19-2009 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spasmodean
Yeah I'm getting kind of sick of this clogging up threads with only happenstance and implication trotted out as proof.

Ilyena and Elayne have similar sounding names....THEY MUST BE THE SAME SOUL!!!!!!!


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