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matuon1 11-20-2009 06:29 AM

In (partial) defense of FelixPax
 
Regardless of the ultimate veracity of FelixPax's ideas, I have to give him credit for the hard work he's put in in his efforts to respond to all the logical critiques thrown his way!

As a newcomer to the Theoryland boards, I'm truly in awe of his ability to use extensive logic to support what appear to be less than logical presuppositions.

Tree Brother 11-20-2009 09:04 AM

Not to encourage FelixPax too much -- but I believe there may be a couple Seafolk in the Luca's circus. Also, regarding the Aiel and chanelling, in Rand's trip through the columns, one of his ancesters mentions being tested, or the possibility of being tested. Can't recall exactly.

Regarding who may, or may not be a Hero -- that is for history to decide :) Regarding where Luca has traveled -- storytelling is part of showmanship. I doubt all his stories are true -- but he may have told some of them so many times, he believes them to be true.

GonzoTheGreat 11-20-2009 11:29 AM

One of the Chavanas Brothers (the acrobats) is described as "who was darker than Juilin and had Sea Folk tattoos on his hands, though he wore no earrings or nose-rings".

One of Rand's ancestors was indeed tested and shown not to be able to channel. One of his great-great-etc-uncles learned that he could channel during the Breaking, and jumped off a cliff.

Davian93 11-20-2009 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixPax
Verin betrayed her BA Oaths, so? Joiya indirectly betrayed her BA Oaths as well. Just as Meidani was able to betray the BA Hunters 4th Oaths, by showing Egwene rather than telling Egwene in tGS book. Oaths are subject to many loopholes, even you should know that by now.

It wasn't an "indirect betrayal" by Joiya by your contention. Joiya told anyone that would listen repeatedly that the BA was gonna free Taim and set him up as the Dragon Reborn to committ atrocities. Her BA Oaths would have forbidden that story if it were completely true. Verin and Meidani's ability to skirt their Oaths are clearly demonstrated. We've been told that what Joiya did was impossible. She wouldn't have been able to betray a true Black Ajah plan like that.

Quote:

Taim told Rand he had been channeling for years, at one point in the story. Taim was a darkfriend before Rand even left Fal Dara (tGH, ch.4), it an obvious deduction.
Yes, he did. That doesn't mean that Taim was being completely honest nor does it mean that he wasnt' a bit crazy from channeling as he could have held the Taint at bay. RJ even clarified in an interview that Rand's estimation of Taim's age as "at least 35" was completely off as Taim simply looked older than his age due to his rough trip. In that same chapter Rand thinks about how some men are able to hold off the Taint for years while others lose it in weeks. Rand even asks him how and get an answer of "No idea, I just have". Taim could be functionally insane for all we know as we've never had a POV on him to find out what's actually going on in there. There's a reason the Breaking lasted 300 years. Either way, its still conjecture, not proven fact like you claim.

Quote:

I now understand why Brandon Sanderson once said to a gathering why he doesn't post to fan forum much any more...too many people with angry replies. Stubborn people, and only tied to their own opinions. This is Theoryland, I had not hoped to find a bunch of sour people within this forum.
The key word here is "Theoryland". If you have a Theory, state it as such. Keep it clear which is provable fact from the books, interviews, Q & A sessions, etc and what is a deductive leap of reasoning that you have made based on those facts. You fuzz it all together and make broad statements that can't be backed up. That is the problem I have with your "theories".

Yuri33 11-20-2009 02:03 PM

Felix is attempting to build a circumstantial case for Luca, because there is absolutely no direct evidence available.

One of the central themes to his case has to do with the "soft" evidence of Luca's attitudes, beliefs, etc. being in line with a Hero, hidden as it may be. But in an attempt to find meaning in the smallest phrases/mannerisms/etc, he's ignoring one of Valan Luca's central themes--one that RJ highlighted almost every time we see Luca--greed. Over and over again we hear about Luca's greed, how he'll stick around a bit longer if he can get a few more silvers out of the local populace (despite being followed by gholam, the Seanchan, etc.). How he uses every opportunity to squeeze Mat and co for more money. It doesn't make him nefarious, but nonetheless it doesn't make him Heroic.

Greed isn't a Tinker trait, or an ex-Tinker trait. It's not a Da'shain Aiel trait, a Jenn Aiel trait, nor a trait of the Luca from Rand's visions in Rhuidean. It's definitely not a Hero trait.

It's a very ordinary trait, one befitting an ordinary Valan Luca.

Weird Harold 11-20-2009 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixPax
But I doubt Valan Luca was lying about that S'redit are in fact found also in Shara. He all but describes to'raken being found within Shara, and we know they are found in Seachan as well.

S'redit, Raken, and To'raken are What the BWB terms Seanchan Exotics:

Quote:

These strange new creatures were not Shadowspawn at all, but the descendants of beasts brought back from parallel worlds, via Portal Stones, during the first thousand years after the Breaking, probably in an attempt to find aid against the real Shadowspawn. While the creatures’ effectiveness was not recorded, it was during this same period that all remaining Shadowspawn on the continent were eradicated. The creatures remained, their care and training surviving through all the political upheavals until Luthair’s arrival. The knowledge that allowed their procurement by way of the Portal Stones, however, was lost.

By the time Luthair invaded, such creatures as the grolm, torm, lopar, corlm, raken, and to’raken were used throughout the armies of the area. After his successful conquest, Luthair adopted them into his own armies, like his newly leashed damane. His descendants continue the tradition. The animals are currently maintained as an essential part of the military, with their handlers and trainers assured an honored place in the hierarchy.
There are no wild Seanchan Exotics nor even any outside of the carefull care of the Seanchan military -- which includes Cerandin's care of her S'redit while with Valan Luca's circus.

IIRC, there is an RJ explanation or something I missed in my quick search of the BWB that says that none of the Exotics can breed in the wild, OWTTE.

There are no Seanchan military in Shara and thus extremely unlikely that there are any S'redit or To'raken there.

Neilbert 11-20-2009 02:39 PM

Your quote does not mention S'redit as being from parallel worlds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold
IIRC, there is an RJ explanation or something I missed in my quick search of the BWB that says that none of the Exotics can breed in the wild, OWTTE.

And elephants can breed in the wild... :confused:

Weird Harold 11-20-2009 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neilbert
Your quote does not mention S'redit as being from parallel worlds.



And elephants can breed in the wild... :confused:

I didn't track down the specific explanation of S'Redit. If they're native to the WOT and some relative of the Elephant, then there may be Sharan S'redit related to the Seanchan S'redit the same way that Indian and African elephants are in the R/W.

My main objection was to the interpretation of "birds large enough to carry off a cow" as evidence of To'raken in Shara.

IIRC, somebody once tracked down the R/W inspiration for Valan Luca's stories of Shara and they're taken almost verbatim from a Victorian guide to the wonders of Africa.

Belazamon 11-20-2009 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frenzy
Felix loses points for not pointing this out already.

Not that it would've helped, since it just proves that the language has shifted since the last time those Heroes were spun out. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixPax
Well, we do have the example of the Jenn Aiel (Rhuidean) becoming the current Age Aiel of the Waste, when they were cast out of the Jenn Aiel for using spears. Wise Ones Amys, Aviendha et al are very distance relatives of the Da'Shain Aiel and they can channel.

I thought you were arguing that the entire Ayyad evolved from leftover Da'shain Aiel, and I was pointing out the improbability of that - but I have to be honest, I don't remember the actual significance of this part of the debate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felix
Valan's Luca word is the only solid proof there is at the moment I can think of.

And we know he lied about it - that was kinda my point.

EDIT: My point here is that Luca lied about where he got the s'redit. Cerandin admitted as much to Nynaeve - she and the s'redit were left behind by the Seanchan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felix
Noal/Jain Farstrider also describes, "Gigantic people" in the mountains and here Valan Luca describes birds will similar abilities to the Seanchan to'raken but from Shara.

As I already said once - to'raken are not described as birdlike. Your comparison is faulty.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felix
Here another scene with Luca claiming to, "feel almost like a tav'eren" to Mat :D

a) His ego is big enough that he can think of himself as ta'veren.
b) He's standing next to an actual ta'veren when he says it. That's an example of dramatic irony.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felix
Taim told Rand he had been channeling for years, at one point in the story. Taim was a darkfriend before Rand even left Fal Dara (tGH, ch.4), it an obvious deduction.

I do not understand how you deduce this. Siuan has also been channeling for years - is she a Darkfriend?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yuri
Greed isn't a Tinker trait, or an ex-Tinker trait. It's not a Da'shain Aiel trait, a Jenn Aiel trait, nor a trait of the Luca from Rand's visions in Rhuidean. It's definitely not a Hero trait.

It's a very ordinary trait, one befitting an ordinary Valan Luca.

Kudos, Yuri. Well-put.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felix
I now understand why Brandon Sanderson once said to a gathering why he doesn't post to fan forum much any more...too many people with angry replies. Stubborn people, and only tied to their own opinions. This is Theoryland, I had not hoped to find a bunch of sour people within this forum.

Can't speak for anyone else, but I'm being stubborn because your theory doesn't hold water. I ask for citations from the books, point out things that don't make sense, point out when your facts are wrong - and I do these things because without the added support I request, your theory is not convincing. If you can answer these sorts of questions satisfactorily, you will get the benefit of the doubt, even if I think it's a nutty theory. But you keep using conjecture and completely circumstantial evidence to come to conclusions, I'm going to keep pointing them out.

Telling people to "grow up" because they keep poking holes in your theory... doesn't actually make a lot of sense to me.

FelixPax 11-20-2009 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yuri33
One of the central themes to his case has to do with the "soft" evidence of Luca's attitudes, beliefs, etc. being in line with a Hero, hidden as it may be. But in an attempt to find meaning in the smallest phrases/mannerisms/etc, he's ignoring one of Valan Luca's central themes--one that RJ highlighted almost every time we see Luca--greed.

Valan Luca has been misjudged here by Mat along others, and I disagree completely that Luca's central theme is "greed":

Quote:

Originally Posted by tFoH book, Chapter “The Price of a Ship” - Nynaeve pov
He had never avoided looking at her bosom before, and if Valan Luca was not interested in bosoms or gold…. “If not about the gold, then why do you want to talk to me?”
“All the way back here from the town,” he said slowly, following her, “I kept thinking that now you would finally go.” She refused to back away again, even when he was standing over her and staring down intently. At least he was still looking at her face. “I don’t know what you are running from, Nana. Sometimes, I almost believe your story.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tFoH book, Chapter “A New Name” - Elayne's pov, with Luca & Birgitte talking to each other, and Thom, Juilin in background
Our wager?” Birgitte said when Luca ran out of wind. He grimaced, then fished slowed into his pouch and tossed her a coin. Elayne caught the glint of gold in the sun as Birgitte examined it, then tossed it right back. “The bet was a silver penny on your part.”
Luca’s eyes widened in startlement, but the next moment he was laughing and pressing the gold crown into her hand. “You are worth every copper of it.
What do you say? Why, the Queen of Ghealdan herself might come to see a performance such as yours. Birgitte and her arrows. We will paint them silver, and the bow!”



Quote:

Originally Posted by Yuri33
Over and over again we hear about Luca's greed, how he'll stick around a bit longer if he can get a few more silvers out of the local populace (despite being followed by gholam, the Seanchan, etc.). How he uses every opportunity to squeeze Mat and co for more money. It doesn't make him nefarious, but nonetheless it doesn't make him Heroic.

If "Greed" was so overwhelming of a character trait of Valan Luca's why does he reject the 100 gold marks from Nynaeve, Elayne in Samara :

Quote:

Originally Posted by tFoH book, "The Price of a Ship"
“I suppose you want your money, now that we are going. Well you shall have it. One hundred gold marks. Though I think you should allow something for the wagon and horses we’re leaving behind. And for what we’ve brought in. We have certainly increased the number of your patrons. Morelin and Juilin with their highwalking, me with the arrows, Thom—“
“Do you think I want the gold, woman?” he demanded rounding on her. “If I did I’d have asked for it the day we crossed the river! Have I asked? Did you ever think why not?”

Luca never does take that 100 gold marks from Nynaeve either. Even after she rejected his marriage offer. :D

Luca gave Nynaeve flowers, while Lan never had....(tFoH, Chapter "Leavetakings")


He's not greedy, just a person not trying to get ripped off by city folk. Is it greedy, to want to get a good deal? Nope. Valan Luca gives people a fair shake, if they give him a fair shake. Greedy does not motivate the man, but applause and adventure does. He's honorable, but misjudged by some of the Two River characters. Just as Egwene was originally bias against Tinkers in the "Wolfbrother" chapter of tEoW...unlike Perrin who was curious about the Tinkers and unbias about them.

Adventure seeking actually is one common motivation that both Bayle Domon, and Valan Luca each hold. Not greed.

FelixPax 11-20-2009 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davian93
It wasn't an "indirect betrayal" by Joiya by your contention. Joiya told anyone that would listen repeatedly that the BA was gonna free Taim and set him up as the Dragon Reborn to committ atrocities. Her BA Oaths would have forbidden that story if it were completely true. Verin and Meidani's ability to skirt their Oaths are clearly demonstrated. We've been told that what Joiya did was impossible. She wouldn't have been able to betray a true Black Ajah plan like that.

And if Joiya believed she was going to die, within the next hour, Davian?



Quote:

Originally Posted by Davian93
Yes, he did. That doesn't mean that Taim was being completely honest nor does it mean that he wasnt' a bit crazy from channeling as he could have held the Taint at bay. RJ even clarified in an interview that Rand's estimation of Taim's age as "at least 35" was completely off as Taim simply looked older than his age due to his rough trip. In that same chapter Rand thinks about how some men are able to hold off the Taint for years while others lose it in weeks. Rand even asks him how and get an answer of "No idea, I just have". Taim could be functionally insane for all we know as we've never had a POV on him to find out what's actually going on in there. There's a reason the Breaking lasted 300 years. Either way, its still conjecture, not proven fact like you claim.

The thing is, your sources and evidence are not in the books nor I have ever seen them in Terez's database of RJ interviews. The books claim Taim have been channeling for a long time, at least 10 years estimated based on his age. Your evidence is inferior until proven, until as Missourians would say, "show me."

A simply deduction is not conjecture, it is logic.

Spasmodean 11-20-2009 03:52 PM

Joiya and Amico thought they were being sent to Tar Valon as per Moiraine's instructions.

One Armed Gimp 11-20-2009 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belazamon
He's standing next to an actual ta'veren when he says it. That's an example of dramatic irony

I was going to rep you for that, but I guess I need to spread some around. I lost it at work reading that.

FelixPax 11-20-2009 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold
There are no wild Seanchan Exotics nor even any outside of the carefull care of the Seanchan military -- which includes Cerandin's care of her S'redit while with Valan Luca's circus.

IIRC, there is an RJ explanation or something I missed in my quick search of the BWB that says that none of the Exotics can breed in the wild, OWTTE.

There are no Seanchan military in Shara and thus extremely unlikely that there are any S'redit or To'raken there.

One limitation of this line of argument is the "Breaking" radically changed the land forms across the known world. Its impossible to said what the range of to'raken, raken, s'redit are now. Let alone if the Shara and Seanchan continent ever had trade relations at any time before or after the "Breaking". The current Age ocean between Shara and Seanchan is not a very large distance either.

Hmm...how can one say with any certainty "who" is in control now in Shara? It's an open question. Let alone if Shara is more than one nation.

FelixPax 11-20-2009 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spasmodean
Joiya and Amico thought they were being sent to Tar Valon as per Moiraine's instructions.

We did not get a pov of their thoughts, either.

One Armed Gimp 11-20-2009 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felix
The thing is, your sources and evidence are not in the books nor I have ever seen them in Terez's database of RJ interviews. The books claim Taim have been channeling for a long time, at least 10 years estimated based on his age. Your evidence is inferior until proven, until as Missourians would say, "show me."

<taps desk with ruler.>

Felix, class in now is session, please pay attention.

If you follow these steps, any and all proof can be found.
  1. View Main forums page.
  2. Click on Wheel of Time Theory Database forum link.
  3. Click on Robert Jordan and Brandon Sanderson Interview Database thread link.
  4. Click on the link for Taim.

You will note the second entry contains the RJ info Dav commented on.

For further reference on Taim and Rand's perceived age of him check eWoT. Once there:
  1. Click the Characters, Aliases & Nicknames link.
  2. Click on 'M'
  3. Click on the Mazrim Taim link.

Before saying a quote or resource doesn't exist, at least have the forethought to actually check and make sure.

FelixPax 11-20-2009 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belazamon
And we know he lied about it - that was kinda my point.

EDIT: My point here is that Luca lied about where he got the s'redit. Cerandin admitted as much to Nynaeve - she and the s'redit were left behind by the Seanchan.

What was Elayne's original question to Luca again?

Quote:

Originally Posted by tFoH book
“Boar-horses, Master Luca?” Elayne said. “Where do they come from?”

That can be interpreted as "origin of the species", not only where did your get those specific Boar-horses from.

Valan could be telling the truth. Which I do believe he was in regards to their "origin as a species", as he knows it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bela
As I already said once - to'raken are not described as birdlike. Your comparison is faulty.

But has Luca ever seen a Seanchan raken or to'raken before? Who knows.... But Valan Luca claims to have visited Shara, and he does have a bear from the Aiel Waste, where very few Westlander's groups can go to. Even Elayne knows for a fact that one of Luca's bears' origin is from the Waste.


Quote:

I do not understand how you deduce this. Siuan has also been channeling for years - is she a Darkfriend?
Male channelers did have the 'Taint' to deal with, especially Male channelers who had been doing it for a while.

Its obvious Taim is at the very least a darkfriend, if not a new Dreadlord. Why are you making a comparison to Siuan? Shrug....

Birgitte 11-20-2009 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold
There are no Seanchan military in Shara and thus extremely unlikely that there are any S'redit or To'raken there.


How do YOU know?

Shara is clearly part of the Seanchan Empire. You can tell because they're both weird places that start with S. And they do odd things with channelers.

~walks away whistling "It's a small world after all"~


(Am I belaboring the joke? Perhaps, but it struck me as silly, so I said it.)

Tree Brother 11-20-2009 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davian93
Taim could be functionally insane for all we know as we've never had a POV on him to find out what's actually going on in there. There's a reason the Breaking lasted 300 years.

Btw, (I think) one of the reasons the Breaking lasted so long, was that many male channelers spent time in Steddings. That prolonged the breaking, and may also have saved the world, since not all of the men went insane at the same time.

nameless 11-20-2009 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixPax
Noal/Jain Farstrider also describes, "Gigantic people" in the mountains and here Valan Luca describes birds will similar abilities to the Seanchan to'raken but from Shara.

Farstrider, along with other people who have actually been to Shara, describes "gigantic people with heads in their stomach." In other words, gorillas, seen from a distance. Luca, on the other hand, describes "gigantic people" and "beings with no heads." He is retelling other people's stories and getting them mixed up in the process.


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