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Terez 12-13-2009 03:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 80661)
BS did that, when he mentioned the "little thing".

Well, he has the notes so he is allowed to introduce mysteries.

Also, Mat's hat is a good bloody hat, and that's enough for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gonzo
If your arrogance isn't ultimate, then it is not really arrogance at all, just a vague copy thereof.

It is ultimate, but it is the best kind, not the worst.

GonzoTheGreat 12-13-2009 04:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 80662)
Also, Mat's hat is a good bloody hat, and that's enough for me.

And it was given to him by an Aes Sedai.

Quote:

It is ultimate, but it is the best kind, not the worst.
Is arrogance ever kind at all?

jason wolfbrother 12-13-2009 06:20 AM

yeah my tongue is definitely in my cheek :D:D:D :) :cool:

There is never a problem with looking again just because it is taken for granted.

However, when it is proven, continuing to argue for your defeated theory is just whitecloak blind faith ;)

Sometimes it's hard to distinguish between the two.

That being said

~puts tongue back in his cheek~

Heresy, Heresy, Off with your head ;)

~sits back on ESC~ :cool:

Daekyras 12-13-2009 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jason wolfbrother (Post 80667)

There is never a problem with looking again just because it is taken for granted.

However, when it is proven, continuing to argue for your defeated theory is just whitecloak blind faith ;)

Wait, Whoa, hold on! something was....PROVEN?!!

Ha ha, I'm just joshing, thanks Wolfbrother. :D

TGoad 12-14-2009 11:39 AM

Forgive me if this has been posted before, but I've searched extensively and seen nothing.

In book 4, Moiraine goes to Rhuidean with Rand. Once there, she speaks to the Wise Ones in a tent after Rand, Mat, and Aviendha have already left for Rhuidean.

When talking about Dreaming, Amys accidentally blurts out that they Dreamed that Moiraine must go to Rhuidean or there will be dire consequences. Moiraine almost immidiately decides that she will go, but the Wise Ones talk about how every time they Dreamed this, it was always Moiraine who "demanded" that she be allowed, and that there was no telling what this could change.

This seems to me to be a minor detail that could (or could not) have major consequences. Prophesy/Dreaming/Foretelling/Min's talents all seem to be centered on the ability to "read" the Pattern's weaving. No matter how much Mat or Perrin (and to a lesser extent, Rand) try to go against prophesy (and by extension, the pattern), they are eventually forced into doing what the pattern wants them to do. This is the only instance in the books that I can think of where the Pattern doesn't unfold as people have have phrospesied/dreamed/foretold/whateverMindoes.

This happened in book 4 and Moiraine continually thinks, in various round about ways, about her Rhuidean adventure until her death in book 6.

Terez 12-14-2009 02:27 PM

I was talking with Tamyrlin about this not long ago, as he was searching the books for what he calls "Pattern Level Events"—that is, places where the Wheel (non-sentient as it might be) seems to step in and take a hand—but this might simply be a case of ta'veren influence.

In any case, Moiraine thinks about her Rhuidean adventure, but not about Amys slipping up, which is your 'minor detail', and also, Brandon said the detail has been present in 'books and books' since.

Tercel 12-14-2009 07:04 PM

I have a couple of concerns about the Matt's Hat theory...

1) Matt was wearing his Medallion when he received the Hat, and he didn't notice it go cold. Sure, by that point he didn't know what it did, but you'd think he'd have noticed it cool against his chest (given he was very over-hot at the time, which was why he was buying the hat). The hat-buying is Mat's POV and he doesn't notice any medallion cooling. If Lanfear was using the Power less than 10 meters from him, wouldn't he have noticed the medallion cooling?

2) What did Lanfear do to the hat? One of the reasons I'm not yet convinced by the "Mat's Hat" theory is that Lanfear has no obvious motive for wanting to do anything to Mat or his hat. Lanfear had little/no interest in Mat at that time. She could have put some sort of warding in the hat to protect him maybe... but we later see him getting injured plenty while wearing the hat. A 'finder' seem a stronger possibility, but from what we know, that requires metal which may not be present in the hat. Basically, if the hat does anything, then how come we've gone books and books and books without it doing anything?

Yuri33 12-14-2009 09:16 PM

People just like to say "good bloody hat" as many times as they can.

nameless 12-14-2009 10:05 PM

The biggest strength of the hat theory is the way Mat becomes completely enamored with the hat. Before going to the Waste he never seemed to care about head accessories one way or the other. He only bought it in the first place because the sun in the Waste is so punishing. You'd think after he crossed the Dragonwall again he would no longer have reason to keep wearing it. His love for his hat is a little reminiscent of the boys' feelings for the Finder coins that Moraine gave them in the beginning of tEotW, which was the result of some sort of glamour weave she used to make sure they wouldn't spend them.

The biggest weakness of the hat theory is the complete lack of motive on Lanfear's part or any sort of evidence that the hat does anything at all out of the ordinary. The most likely explanation is that it's a regular hat and Mat wears it because Odin wore one like it, but the theory still has a following because it's original, it fits the criteria, and so far no one's been able to come up with anything better.

Terez 12-14-2009 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yuri33 (Post 80814)
People just like to say "good bloody hat" as many times as they can.

Yay, someone gets it. Because, you know, it is a good bloody hat.

FelixPax 12-22-2009 04:21 AM

A Silver necklace: Lanfear, Master Kadere, Egwene, Aviendha
 
The item in question, just might be the Silver necklace Egwene gave to Aviendha; which was purchased from the darkfriend Master Kadere, who was controlled by Lanfear in the Aiel Waste. Why?



Here are some supporting reasons for this being the item in question, Brandon Sanderson has been giving hints about:

#1 - Lanfear has a prior known pattern of marking individuals in past books. She marked and healed Rand in the presents of Min at the end of TGH,Ch4. She later again marked Rand in the TAR by biting his neck, at TSR,Ch50.


#2 - Master Kadere the peddler, now dead, worked under Lanfear direct eye in the Aiel Waste; when Egwene purchased that Silver necklace described as Kandori snowflakes as a gift sealing her near-sister relationship with Aviendha.


#3 - Items like the silver coins Moiraine gave to each Mat, Rand, Perrin in the 2nd Chapter of tEoW book, can be bond with a marking weave. Which will hold up for a very, very long time:

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Eye of the World book - Chapter 2 "Strangers"
“A silver penny!” Ewin burst out. “She gave me a whole silver penny! Think what I can buy when the peddler comes.”
Rand opened his hand to look at the coin she had given him, and almost dropped it in surprise. He did not recognize the fat silver coin with the raised image of a woman balancing a single flame on her upturned hand, but he had watched while Bran al’Vere weighed out the coins merchants brought from a dozen lands, and he had an idea of its value. That much silver would buy a good horse anywhere in the Two Rivers, with some left over.
He looked at Mat and saw the same stunned expression he knew must be on his own face. Tilting his hand so Mat could see the coin but not Ewin, he raised a questioning eyebrow. Mat nodded, and for a minute they stared at one another in perplexed wonder.


Quote:

Originally Posted by The Eye of the World book - Chapter 21 "Listen to the Wind"
“Why south?” she asked Moiraine. “I heard you say one of the boys is across the river. And how do you know?”
“I gave each of the boys a token. It created a bond of sorts between them and me. So long as they are alive and have those coins in their possession, I will be able to find them.” Nynaeve’s eyes turned in the direction the Warder had gone, and Moiraine shook her head. “Not like that. It only allows me to discover if they still live, and find them should we become separated. Prudent, do you not think, under the circumstances?”


#4 - Lanfear is, was a highly jealous of any women, who just might gain the Dragon Reborn attention, instead of herself. Lanfear knew Aviendha was close enough to Rand. (tSR, Ch.48)

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Shadow Rising, Ch. 48 "An Offer Refused"
Keille watched, round face unreadable, until the white door closed, then suddenly rounded on Mat, who was on the point of slipping away. “Few men have ever refused an offer from me once, much less twice. You should have a care I do not take it in mind to do something about it.” Laughing, she reached up and pinched his cheek with thick fingers, hard enough to make him wince, then turned in Rand’s direction. “Tell him, my Lord Dragon. I have a feeling you know something of the dangers of scorning a woman. That Aiel girl who follows you about, glaring. I hear you belong to another. Perhaps she feels scorned.”
“I doubt it, Mistress,” he said dryly. “Aviendha would plant a knife in my ribs if she believed I had thought of her that way.”

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Fires of Heaven - Ch.6 "Gateways" - Rand pov
For a moment shock held him. Elayne’s mother in the hands of one of the Forsaken. Yet he dared not show concern. Lanfear had displayed her jealousy more than once; she was capable of hunting Elayne down and killing her, if she even thought he had feelings for her. What do I feel for her? Aside from that, one hard fact floated beyond the Void, cold and cruel in its truth. He would not run off to attack Rahvin even if what Lanfear said was true. Forgive me, Elayne, but I can’t.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Fires of Heaven - Ch.6 "Gateways" - Rand's pov
“The Chosen,” she said absently. For a moment she chewed a full underlip. “I have watched the girl’s dreams, too. Egwene. Once I thought you had feelings for her. Do you know who she dreams of? Morgase’s son and stepson. The son, Gawyn, most often.” Smiling, she put on a tone of mock shock. “You would not believe a simple country girl could have such dreams.”
She was trying to test his jealousy, he realized. She really thought he warded his dreams to hide thoughts of another woman! “The Maidens guard me closely,” he said dryly. “If you want to know how close, look at Isendre’s dreams.”



#5 - Lanfear has noticed Aviendha as a possible romantic threat to herself, relative to the Dragon Reborn. Here's where an educated guess comes in, so when Keille learns that Egwene is looking for a gift for Aviendha and needed to borrow $$$ from Moiraine to pay for a Silver necklace in the pattern of Kandori snowflakes. Keille (Lanfear) had enough time to put a binding on the Silver necklace, if case her ever needs to track down Aviendha and likely the Dragon Reborn in the uncertain future. Especially if Lanfear thought Rand was romantically involved at all with Aviendha.


Egwene gave that Silver necklace to Aviendha in
The Fires of Heavens, Ch. 7 "Departure":

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Fires of Heaven, Ch.7 "Departure"
(Egwene) Her own flame-carved ivory bracelet was a gift from Aviendha, to seal them as near-sisters; her return gift had been the silver necklace the other woman wore, which Master Kadere claimed was a Kandori pattern called snowflakes. She had had to ask Moiraine for enough money, but it had seemed appropriate for a woman who would never see snow. Or would not have if she was not leaving the Waste; small chance that she could return before winter. Whatever that bracelet meant, Egwene was confident she could puzzle it out eventually.

#6 - Lanfear seems to have far more knowledge about the changes the Aiel Clans have undergone, since the Breaking. And seemed implied she understood the family structure of the Aiel, based her on comments to Rand in the Waste and Rand's own Rhuidean gained ancientors memories of Mierin:

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Shadow Rising book, Chapter 26 "The Dedicated"
It would mean changing his service to Zorelle Sedai, whom Nalla served, but Mierin Sedai had already given her blessing.

It is highly likely that Da'Shain Aiel pre and post Breaking, had a family structure with sister-wifes, near-sisters, near-brothers et la; all of which Mierin already understood of the majority of. Generally speaking, family social structures tend to endure over extremely long periods of time.

The important point is Lanfear knew that Aviendha would retain and keep wearing the Silver necklace, and the marking weave I believe she placed upon it.


Remember Rand did learn that Lanfear had spied on Egwene's Dreams, too. Lanfear likely did know of the growing relationship between Egwene and Aviendha, before they formalized the near-sister relationship...how? Egwene's very own dreams.




If the Silver necklace now worn by Aviendha is really the item in question, why has not Moridin taking use of it?? He controls Cyndane now, right?

And yet this very assumption above requires, one to believe that Lanfear is now truly Cyndane. Because if Lanfear remains locked away in the Tower of Ghenjei as Mat, pines in 'The Gathering Storm' book, that marking weave upon the Silver necklace is useless to track down Aviendha, as only Lanfear has access to it.

Why have an imposter Lanfear at all???

One reason for Moridin to "invent" a female channeler, to replace Lanfear in the other Chosen's eyes...is to "cover-up" and "hide" his connection into Rand's head. The other Chosen knew Lanfear had a jealous eye over the Dragon Reborn and highly likely marked Rand in some way to be able to find him. If other Chosen knew about Moridin's special into the Dragon Reborn head, they would not reaction well to Moridin at all. Moridin immediate would have all the Chosen in rebellion against himself, minus the mindtrapped Moghedien & Cyndane.

Demandred, Aran'gar, Mesaana all would agree to kill or capture either Moridin or Rand then. It's a two for one, special, which Moridin doesn't want the other Chosen to learn about. After all, betrayal is "okay" against other Chosen and Darkfriend, just as long as its not against the Dark One himself--according to Verin Sedai in tGS book. Moridin is not the Dark One, either.



Even among the Chosen, Forsaken there is a some disagreement whether Cyndane is truly Lanfear or not:

Demandred learned from Mesaana, who is his own faction member, that Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear in the Power. And wonders if Moridin is playing a trick here again:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winter's Heart, Ch.13 "Wonderful News" - Demandred pov
Putting a hand over his heart, for all the world like a lover, Moridin tilted up Cyndane’s chin on his fingertips. Resentment burned in her eyes, but her face might have been a doll’s unchanging face. She certainly accepted his attentions like a pliable doll. “Cyndane knows many things,” Moridin said softly, “and she tells me everything she knows. Everything.” The tiny woman’s expression never altered, but she trembled visibly.
She was a puzzle to Demandred. At first he had thought she was Lanfear reincarnated. Bodies for transmigration supposedly were chosen by what was available, yet Osan’gar and Aran’gar were proof of the Great Lord’s cruel sense of humor. He had been sure, until Mesaana told him the girl was weaker than Lanfear. Mesaana and the rest thought she was of this Age. Yet she spoke of al’Thor as Lews Therin, just as Lanfear had, and spoke of the Choedan Kal as one familiar with the terror they had inspired during the War of Power. Only balefire had been more feared, and only just. Or had Moridin taught her for purposes of his own? If he had any real purposes. There had always been times when the man’s actions had been sheer madness.



Graendal who did spend some time with Lanfear earlier in the story (tFoH, Prologue), thinks Cyndane is not Lanfear:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knife of Dreams - Ch."At the Gardens" - Aran'gar pov
Moridin straightened himself in his chair, directing that stare at the rest of them. "That goes for all of you. Al'Thor is mine. You will not harm him in any way!" Cyndane bent her head over her goblet, sipping, but the hatred in her eyes was plain. Graendal had said she was not Lanfear, that she was weaker in the One Power, but she surely was fixated on al'Thor, and she called him by the same name Lanfear had always used.

If any female Chosen knows Lanfear the best, its probably Graendal. Why? Just look at all the prior emotional conflict and tension between those two, up to Lanfear's visit to the *Finn at the Cairhien docks.


In conclusion, the "Silver Necklace, with Kandori snowflakes" worn by Aviendha is most likely the individual item, Brandon Sanderson gave a hint out about.


Aviendha wears that silver necklace almost everywhere, since receiving it in the tFoH book.


Its a bit of circle as well, as each Rand and Aviendha have now received "silver" gifts with a hidden element to them in the story. Each had a marking weave placed upon them, by women who want to retain a way to track, Rand & later Aviendha. First Moiraine to Rand, second Lanfear to Aviendha. Still isn't it funny to think that both women who originally wanted to track a person, are likely sharing time and stuck together with the *Finns now??



Edit: I stand corrected, as Beren in this very thread seems to of independently brought to light a question about Aviendha's necklace, without me knowing anything about this.

padfoot89 12-22-2009 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tercel (Post 80801)
I have a couple of concerns about the Matt's Hat theory...

1) Matt was wearing his Medallion when he received the Hat, and he didn't notice it go cold.

Lanfear used reversing to place the ward on the hat.

Quote:

2) What did Lanfear do to the hat?
She wove a ward to give it awesome cooling abilities. We'll see the importance of it when Mat is in the Pit of Doom with Rand.

WinespringBrother 12-22-2009 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixPax (Post 81648)
The item in question, just might be the Silver necklace Egwene gave to Aviendha; which was purchased from the darkfriend Master Kadere, who was controlled by Lanfear in the Aiel Waste. Why?

We know Lanfear ended up in the land of the Eelfinn, and hasn't been seen since. We know Cyndane was held by the Finns. We know Cyndane has many similarities to Lanfear. So, If Cyndane isn't Lanfear reborn, then who is she? And if she is Lanfear reborn, then the finder link would have broken.

It also seems that Cyndane doesn't share the romantic feelings that Lanfear once did for LTT.

Also, Moiraine's bond with Lan broke when she went through the redstone ter'angreal in Cairhien, presumably due to the connection breaking. Isn't it likely that a finder link would also break in a similar fashion?

One Armed Gimp 12-22-2009 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WinespringBrother (Post 81674)
We know Lanfear ended up in the land of the Eelfinn, and hasn't been seen since. We know Cyndane was held by the Finns. We know Cyndane has many similarities to Lanfear. So, If Cyndane isn't Lanfear reborn, then who is she? And if she is Lanfear reborn, then the finder link would have broken.

It also seems that Cyndane doesn't share the romantic feelings that Lanfear once did for LTT.

Say waaat?

Re-read the cleansing of Saidin. WH Chapter 35. (You too Felix, since seem to have questions about Cyndane being Lanfear.)

As for why give Lanfear and new body and name. Probably like Moridin, Osan'gar, and Aran'gar, her body died and her soul was brought back.

FelixPax 12-22-2009 07:00 PM

Some reasons why, Cyndane is not Lanfear
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by One Armed Gimp (Post 81675)
Say waaat?

Re-read the cleansing of Saidin. WH Chapter 35. (You too Felix, since seem to have questions about Cyndane being Lanfear.)


Thanks for bring this particular Chapter of Winter's Heart book up, One Armed Gimp. :):)


I wondered how long it would take for someone, take up the argument of Cyndane thoughts during the Cleansing event. They are probably the very strongest argument for Cyndane being a re-born Lanfear. Which I too, was in strong favor of until very recently, Cyndane being a reborn Lanfear. Now I am not so sure of this large assumption at all. However, there are a bunch of oddities about Cyndane thoughts, her speech patterns and word usage, locational references, and her prior behaviors elsewhere relative to Lanfear's own prior attitudes & behaviors to put Cyndane's actual identity into question. The contrast between Graendal's interactions with Lanfear, and later Cyndane express major hints at real differences between who Lanfear is, and who Cyndane is.


Then there is a separate series questions of whether the Dark One can even harvest souls from those who die in either Aelfinn, Eelfinn. After all, Birgitte in the World of Dreams mentions the ongoing conflict between the *Finns and the Shadow to Perrin during his Wolf Dream while next to the Tower of Ghenjei. I highly doubt the Dark One would be welcomed to harvest souls there.

I will go into and explain some reasons, how & why Cyndane's thoughts are not Lanfear's in another later posting. In a second future posting, I will explore the issue of the Aelfinn, Eelfinn realms and the Dark One. But for now, with my time short, I will leave you all with another issue bringing light to Cyndane, Moridin relationship via the prism of Mat:


If one believes Cyndane is truly Lanfear. Why, was not Moridin able to kill Mat in 'Knife of Dreams' after Chapter 3?

We know for a fact, the Lanfear had a prior pattern of marking individuals, Rand among others. If Mat was marked by Lanfear at any time during the story any way, why did not Cyndane go find him? After all, Moridin literally commanded all the Chosen to kill Mat and Perrin (KoD,Ch.3), but not Rand.

If Lanfear marked Mat in the White Tower, she would of been able to find him. Mat had not yet, gone to Rhuidean then. If Lanfear, created a bond weave to Mat's Hat, which endures, Cyndane should of been able to find Mat. That bonding is between the object and the person, not a warder type bond as Moiraine once explained. So it should have survived any possible death of Lanfear.

The general point is Moiraine was able to know and find all three boys after using a bond weave with an object. Separately, even Nynaeve was able to follow and find a missing Egwene after she disappeared from Two Rivers with Moiraine and company to a Baerlon Inn. Nynaeve's prior healing of Egwene created a a type of linking between them, which acted as a type of finding beacon.

So if Cyndane was truly Lanfear, why wasn't Cyndane able to easily Mat and Tuon in route out of Altara?

Moridin wants Mat and Perrin dead (KoD,Ch.3). Moghedien did her job in creating an assassination attempt upon Perrin in the city of Almizar, though the manipulation of 'The Prophet'(KoD,Ch12).
(((yes, I will follow this connection up in another thread. Moghedien gives a hint of 'The Prophet' to a compelled Nynaeve, Elayne--tSR, Ch.46 "Veils": “Rand al’Thor. So that is his name now.” Her face crumpled in a momentary grimace. “An arrogant man who stank of piety and goodness. The Prophet is, was a creation of Moghedien in Ghealdan, I hold now. Moghedien's work with 'The Prophet' is most likely the 'good by accident', Moridin refers to in aCoS, Ch.25 "Mindtrapped"., as it directly aided the Seanchan invasion of Amacidia.))).
While what did Cyndane do during this time? Absolutely nothing. Not one known assassination attempt upon either Mat nor Perrin, by her direction. If Cyndane was truly Lanfear, there should have been at least one attempt. Cyndane expresses 'fear' towards Moridin (KoD,Ch.3) and is mindtrapped....


Even if one believes that Mat was no longer marked by Lanfear. If Cyndane truly was Lanfear, why wasn't she able to find Mat? Lanfear found Mat, Perrin, and Mat before almost any other Chosen. Only Osan'gar, Aran'gar, and Moridin himself were earlier to find the three boys. But Osan'gar, Aran'gar followed Mat's ruby dagger to find the three ta'veren boys and Moiraine with the Green Man. And Moridin as Ishamael already was linked to Rand. Lanfear once found Mat on the trail of the Horn, in White Tower without Rand's marked presents in the area, and again later in the Aiel Waste. So why does Cyndane literally stink at finding ta'veren, being it Mat or Perrin, for almost two straight books in a row?



Cyndane's identity is mostly likely a lie created by Moridin, just as someone disguised themselves as Sammael to order an attack upon Rand with large numbers Myrddaal, Trollocs (KoD, Ch.19 "Vows")-- which is very likely Moridin himself, too. Moridin wanted to capture or kill Rand to gain the Choedan Kal, Callandor among to other items then, hence the disguised attack.


Demandred, Graendal's own separate observations, both with different Chosen factions question the identity of who Cyndane truly is. They know she is hiding something, just not why.


If Moridin truly wanted Mat dead, why didn't he have Cyndane find Noal's dreams? Assuming Moridin himself was too busy to do it. After all, Noal was used as a 'tool' by Ishamael to spread a story among the Ogier at Stedding Shangtai (TEotW,Ch42). Obviously, Noal was sent by someone to watch Jaichim Carridin (sent by Shaidar Haran), Falion and Ispan (sent by Moghedien), Chelsaine Palace (ACoS,Ch28), then "saves" Mat's life from the gholam (WH,Ch.16).... The point is if Noal was used in the past by the Shadow, why isn't Cyndane or Moridin using him again to kill Mat after KoD,Ch.3?


Oh yes, one last note. Lanfear entered the Eelfinn realm via the twisted red doorway placed on the Cairhien docks, while strangely Cyndane mentions being held by both the Aelfinn and Eelfinn (Winter's Heart, Ch.35):

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winter's Heart, Ch.35 - Cyndane pov
She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her!

Mat only spoke to the Eelfinn during this trip to the Eelfinn via the twisted red doorway with "three lines of downward pointing triangles on each side", not the Aelfinn, who's doorway "has three sinuous lines carved deep into each side" at the Stone in Tear. :eek: :eek:

Mat did not speak nor saw the Eelfinn during his prior trip to the Aelfinn realm, when he entered the doorway with "has three sinuous lines carved deep into each side".

In short, Cyndane's thoughts do not match what Mat learned with his very own experiences, with either the Aelfinn or the Eelfinn, through the two different twisted doorways (Tear, Rhuidean).

Spasmodean 12-22-2009 07:04 PM

Wasn't Moghedien's arrogant man comment referring to Lews Therin?

FelixPax 12-22-2009 07:42 PM

The Prophet was Moghedien's plaything
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Spasmodean (Post 81737)
Wasn't Moghedien's arrogant man comment referring to Lews Therin?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Shadow Rising - Ch.46 "Veils" - Elayne pov
Pushing everything away, the woman leaned back, speaking half to herself. “Rand al’Thor. So that is his name now.” Her face crumpled in a momentary grimace. “An arrogant man who stank of piety and goodness. Is he still the same? No, do not bother to answer that. An idle question. So Be’lal is dead. The other sounds like Ishamael, to me. All his pride at being only half-caught, whatever the price—there was less human left in him than any of us when I saw him again; I think he half-believed he was the Great Lord of the Dark—all his three thousand years of machinations, and it comes to an untaught boy hunting him down. My way is best. Softly, softly, in the shadows. Something to control a man who can channel. Yes, it would have to be that.” Her eyes turned sharp, studying them in turn. “Now. What to do with you.”

L.T.T was not pious, either.

The Prophet was the way, how Moghedien found Nynaeve in Samara. The Prophet didn't know where Nynaeve was staying either, and Uno was loyal to Nynaeve, Elayne not to Masema. That is why Moghedien was waiting at the boat, because she knew Nynaeve was coming there. That also explains why the five Black Ajahs Aes Sedai sisters in Samara were left clueless by Moghedien.

Robert Jordan gives us a hint, about The Prophet's role in tFoH, Ch.40:

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Fires of Heavens - Ch.40 "The Wheel Weaves" - Nynaeve pov
“You really did something foolish this time,” Elayne muttered. “We can trust Galad’s oath, I’m sure, but you could not know what he might do beforehand. And to approach the Prophet!” She jerked the shawl from Nynaeve’s shoulders roughly. “You could have had no idea whatsoever what he might do. You worried everybody and risked everything!”
“I know,” Nynaeve managed to get out. The sun was in her eyes; she could no longer see Birgitte at all. But Birgitte could see her. Of course she could. That was the important thing.
Elayne looked at her suspiciously. “You know?”
“I know I risked everything. I should have talked with you, asked you. I know I’ve been a fool. I should not be allowed outside without a keeper.” It all came in a breathless rush. Birgitte must be able to see her.


Also, separately Moghedien did not know who the reborn Dragon Reborn's name was in this Age, until Nynaeve and Elayne under compulsion told her, in an Three Plum Court (TSR,Ch46). The Prophet didn't use Rand's name till after that event in Ghealdan, too. :D

Graendal and Moghedian both aided the invasion in the West by the Seanchan Empire. Interestingly, both were separately later brought under controlled by Shaidar Haran and Moridin. Moghedien's role in Ghealdan drew the Whitecloaks northern, the day before the Seanchan Empire invade Amador. Graendal helped weaken Tarabon by creating chaos in Arad Doman, Almoth Plain and weakening indirectly Tarabon for the "Return", a Seanchan invasion of Tanchico.

WinespringBrother 12-23-2009 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by One Armed Gimp (Post 81675)
Say waaat?

Re-read the cleansing of Saidin. WH Chapter 35. (You too Felix, since seem to have questions about Cyndane being Lanfear.)

As for why give Lanfear and new body and name. Probably like Moridin, Osan'gar, and Aran'gar, her body died and her soul was brought back.

Quote:

Originally posted by RJ/WH:

CHAPTER: 35 - With the Choedan Kal
She could feel it. That much of saidar being drawn to one spot was a beacon that any woman in the world who could channel would feel and locate. So he had found a woman to use the other access key. She would have faced the Great Lord-faced the Creator!-with him. She would have shared the power with him, let him rule the world at her side. And he had spurned her love, spurned her!
Skirts hiked to her knees, cursing, Cyndane ran from her third gateway as soon as she was through. She could hear the explosions marching toward the site, but this time she had realized why they came straight for her. Tripping on vines hidden in the snow, bumping into tree trunks, she ran. She hated forests! At least some of the others were here-she had seen those fountaining fires speed elsewhere than at her; she could feel saidar being spun at more than one place, spun with fury-but she prayed to the Great Lord that she would reach Lews Therin first. She wanted to see him die, she realized, and for that, she would have to get closer.
Then the woman struck back at her, and she suffered her second shock. She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible; no woman could be stronger. She must have an angreal, too. Shock lasted only the time it took her to slice the other woman's flows. She did not know how to reverse them. Maybe that would be enough advantage. She would see Lews Therin die! The taller woman jerked as her cut flows snapped back into her, but even as she shifted her feet with the blow, she channeled again. Snarling, Cyndane fought back, and the earth heaved beneath their feet. She would see him die! She would.
Those should cover any relevant quotes that you are looking for, OAG. I'm not sure what your point is though, unless you are confused into thinking that I don't think Cyndane is Lanfear reborn. I believe that she is. I was pointing out that Cyndane has an antipathy for LTT now, that Lanfear developed on the docks in Cairhien.

One Armed Gimp 12-23-2009 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WinespringBrother (Post 81782)
Those should cover any relevant quotes that you are looking for, OAG. I'm not sure what your point is though, unless you are confused into thinking that I don't think Cyndane is Lanfear reborn. I believe that she is. I was pointing out that Cyndane has an antipathy for LTT now, that Lanfear developed on the docks in Cairhien.

I was responding to the
Quote:

It also seems that Cyndane doesn't share the romantic feelings that Lanfear once did for LTT.
part of your post above. I took that as you giving evidence against Cyndane being Lanfear, my apologies if I misconstrued.

FelixPax, you are killing me. To argue against Cyndane being Lanfear is pointless and I feel that if I were to debate this with you I would feel like I was ramming my head against a wall. If the books and available quotes from RJ do not convince you, nothing I can say will.

Bonzi77 12-23-2009 10:01 AM

Felix, you would do great in Congress, because you filibuster an argument better than anyone I have ever seen.

Are you familiar with the concept of Occam's Razor? Basically, in any given situation, the simplest explanation is the best.

So what is more likely? That there's somehow a second woman that was spurned by Lews Therin/Rand who appears out of nowhere all of the sudden? Or that whatever link you think Lanfear put on Mat either broke when she went through the doorframe or (more likely) never existed in the first place?

As for the finding Ta'veren trick, Lanfear herself admitted it wasn't easy for her. She didn't "literally stink" because I doubt she was actually smelling badly while trying to do it. And besides, that argument is completely meaningless because Moridin CAN use that trick and hasn't used it to kill Mat and Perrin, so it's wrong to conclude that someone would just because they could.


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