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Terez 12-30-2009 08:25 AM

Mass hysteria.

GonzoTheGreat 12-30-2009 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 82310)
Mass hysteria.

Probably a correct explanation, but I have to admit that I do not know of what particularly in this specific case.

Weird Harold 12-30-2009 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 82298)
Actually, based on what Birgitte says to Perrin in TSR, it is not a matter of "just as easily".
Assuming that she knows what she is talking about, the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn definitely have contact with each other; they may very well live together.

The Aelfinn and Eelfin definitely have contact/trade with each other. Most of the memories Mat recieved could not have been collected by the 'finn who gave them to him because they came from people who likely only had access to the other Redstone Doorway.

Terez 12-31-2009 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 82374)
The Aelfinn and Eelfin definitely have contact/trade with each other. Most of the memories Mat recieved could not have been collected by the 'finn who gave them to him because they came from people who likely only had access to the other Redstone Doorway.

RJ said that many of Mat's memories came from people who went through the Tower of Ghenjei:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
TOR Questions of the Week, December 2003 to April 2004

Week 12 Question: You stated in another interview [Crossroads of Twilight eBook "Glimmers" Interview] that Mat's memories came from adventurers who traveled through the ter'angreal. However several of Mat's memories end with the adventurer dying. Since adventurers probably didn't go through the ter'angreal after they died, how could the 'Finns have obtained these memories?

Robert Jordan Answers: A good question. I was wondering when someone would ask that. I expected it as soon as Mat started revealing those old memories. At least a partial answer will be coming up in the next main sequence book, so I guess you could say this is a RAFO. But I will say that if I said those adventurers all entered through the two ter'angreal, I misspoke. A good many entered through the Tower of Ghenjei, which was more widely known in earlier years, if never exactly a household name.


But obviously, the 'Finns live together, through their realms appear to be separate. It may be that, once inside the Tower, the adventurer has a choice of which realm to enter, but I still doubt that they do not work together.

None of Mat's memories are from the Firsts of Mayene - after all, those are Hawkwing's descendants, most likely the ones he sent to conquer Shara, and Mat doesn't have any memories after Hawkwing. The ter'angreal might have belonged to Hawkwing at one point, but Mat doesn't have his memories, and most of the memories he does have from that time are from those who opposed Hawkwing (Mat in fact remembers being the last general to fall to Hawkwing's Consolidation, when Ishara's grandfather was king of Aldeshar). We have no idea where the ter'angreal was before that, but RJ did say that it only became better known than Ghenjei in the later years, presumably when it was in Mayene.

GonzoTheGreat 12-31-2009 03:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 82448)
But obviously, the 'Finns live together, through their realms appear to be separate. It may be that, once inside the Tower, the adventurer has a choice of which realm to enter, but I still doubt that they do not work together.

Another interpretation of the three entrances (two ter'angreal and ToG): the ter'angreal lead into specially designed shop fronts, where the Eelfinn and Aelfinn present only the picture they want to show to their customers. Perhaps, if Mat had looked up, he would have noticed a mirror in the ceiling. And perhaps, if he had managed to break it, he would have seen that "the other" species (whichever was the other in that particular encounter) was looking in on his meeting.

All we know about the ter'angreal is that if you pass through one, you only meet one type of *finn. That does not mean that the other type is incapable of showing up then too, does it?

Yuri33 12-31-2009 03:59 AM

Interesting that despite having access to all those other non-military peoples' memories, they gave Mat predominately military memories. In fact, the Aelfinn were the first to recognize the battle-master part of Mat:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
TSR, Into the Doorway:
Abruptly a dozen of the yellow-clad men were around Mat, seeming to appear out of the air, trying to pull him toward the door. He fought with fists, elbows, knees. "What fate? Burn your hearts, what fate?" It was the room itself that pealed, the walls and floor quivering, nearly taking Mat and his attackers off their feet. "What fate?"
The three were on their feet atop the pedestals, and he could not tell which shrieked which answer.
"To marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons!"
"To die and live again, and live once more a part of what was!"
"To give up half the light of the world to save the world!"
Together they howled like steam escaping under pressure. "Go to Rhuidean, son of battles! Go to Rhuidean, trickster! Go, gambler! Go!"
Mat's assailants snatched him into the air by his arms and legs and ran, holding him over their heads. "Unhand me, you white-livered sons of goats!" he shouted, struggling. "Burn your eyes! The Shadow take your souls, loose me! I will have your guts for a saddle girth!" But writhe and curse as he would, those long fingers gripped like iron.
Twice more the bell tolled, or the palace did. Everything shook as in an earthquake; the walls rang with deafening reverberations, each louder than the last. Mat's captors stumbled on, nearly falling but never stopping their pell-mell race. He did not even see where they were taking him until they suddenly stopped short, heaving him into the air. Then he saw the twisted doorway, the ter'angreal, as he flew toward it.
White light blinded him; the roar filled his head till it drove thought away.

Either the Aelfinn are calling him that because they just read his fate, or they recognized that those themes--battle master, gambler, trickster--are part of his Hero soul. The Eelfinn then chose to give him predominately battle memories, memories critical to victory against the Shadow, when they were under no obligation to do so. They were only required to "fill the holes" in his memory, but the choice of what to fill them with was at their discretion.

Either that's just another ta'veren effect, or (in their own alien way) are the Finns are trying to help as well? I'm aware that right after this they hang him, but they may have had assurances that he would survive.

Another question is if the Aelfinn pointed Mat toward Rhuidean not because he would have "sidestepped the thread of fate," but because they wanted him specifically to see the Eelfinn and get his gifts. Perhaps there's a case to be made that they had been working together to some extent. At least it would be another piece of evidence that connects the two.

GonzoTheGreat 12-31-2009 04:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yuri33 (Post 82456)
Interesting that despite having access to all those other non-military peoples' memories, they gave Mat predominately military memories. In fact, the Aelfinn were the first to recognize the battle-master part of Mat:

I don't think they were quite the first, though Selene does not come out and say it explicitly, I admit.
Quote:

Originally Posted by TDR, Chapter 20, Visitations
"Mat, Mat, you must learn to trust me. Oh, I will use you, too – you have too suspicious a nature, especially since carrying that dagger, for me to deny it – but my use will gain you wealth, and power, and glory. I will not compel you. I have always believed men perform better if convinced rather than forced. These Aes Sedai do not even realize how important you are, and he will try to dissuade or kill you, but I can give you what you desire."


One Armed Gimp 12-31-2009 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yuri33 (Post 82456)
Interesting that despite having access to all those other non-military peoples' memories, they gave Mat predominately military memories. In fact, the Aelfinn were the first to recognize the battle-master part of Mat:

I would imagine that most of the people making that journey would be the adventurous sort and the type that would end up as soldiers and generals.

FelixPax 01-05-2010 12:14 AM

Cyndane sweated
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nameless (Post 82296)
How could Ishamael/Moridin have known what memories to implant if Lanfear hadn't come back and told him?

Remember that Ishamael is 'playing both sides of the board'??

Cyndane very presents adds another element for him to leverage and gain control over the other Chosen, including Graendal, Demandred et la. As the watcher, Ishamael learned that Graendal only created an alliance with Sammael because she thought Sammael just might be the next Nae'blis.

The point is Ishamael knew how to manipulate Graendal to gain some control over her later actions, by showing evidence of being an Nae'blis,
Cyndane's presents was one way of doing this as a messenger with Moghedien in tow.


One role of implanting memories into Cyndane is to create 'uncertainty' among the remaining Chosen, who Cyndane really is. So including some well known traits of Lanfear, and her prior relation with L.T.T would be highly important. It's not like Ishamael was clueless about Lanfear. They worked together in that parallel world, after all in 'The Great Hunt' book.


Moving on, here is yet another piece of evidence that Cyndane is not Lanfear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Crown of Swords - Chapter 9 "A Pair of Silverpike - Egwene pov with Nicola
The other woman shifted as if to hurry away, then straightened her back. Sweat glistened on her cheeks. The darkness was cooler than the light had been, but not what anyone would call cool, and the simple trick of ignoring heat or cold came only with the shawl.

One of the common well known traits of full Aes Sedai is they do not sweat at all. Lanfear before aligning with the Shadow and becoming a Chosen, Lanfear was a famous Aes Sedai trained researcher during the Age of Legends: Mierin Eronaile.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knife of Dreams book - Chapter 3 "At the Gardens" - Aran'gar point of view
"No one else," Cyndane said. When he lowered his hand, she exhaled softly then took a swallow of wine. Sweat glistened on her forehead.

Cyndane sweated in front of Aran'gar. If Cyndane is Lanfear, explain why an Aes Sedai trained like Lanfear was, would sweat at all?

The point is Cyndane never was trained by Aes Sedai nor gained a shawl during the Age of Legends, as full Aes Sedai do not sweat. Let alone Chosen.

Terez 01-05-2010 01:45 AM

Aes Sedai do sometimes sweat, when they can't concentrate properly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE: Crown of Swords

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
CHAPTER: 12 - A Morning of Victory

When Siuan took another turn westward, between two misshapen hills that bent toward each other, Myrelle drew rein. "There... There is a waterfall in that direction," she said, pointing east. "Not very large, even before the drought, but quite pretty even now." Siuan stopped too, looking back with a small smile.

What could Myrelle be hiding? Egwene was curious. Glancing at the Green sister, she gave a start at a single bead of perspiration on the woman's forehead, glistening in the shadow just at the edge of her wide gray hat. She most certainly wanted to know what could shake an Aes Sedai enough to make her sweat.

"I think Siuan’s way will offer even more interesting sights, don’t you?" Egwene said, turning Daishar, and Myrelle seemed to fold in on herself. "Come along."

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE: Path of Daggers

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
CHAPTER: Prologue - Deceptive Appearances

The numbers certainly equaled one of the great cities', more than enough to envelope a few Aes Sedai prisoners completely, yet Verin saw a black-robed woman plodding away not fifty paces off, struggling to pull a waist-high pile of rocks behind her on a cowhide. The deep cowl hid her face, but no one in the camp except the captive sisters wore those black robes. A Wise One strolled along close to the hide, glowing with the Power as she shielded the prisoner, while a pair of Maidens flanked the sister, using switches to urge her on whenever she faltered. Verin wondered whether she had been meant to see. That very morning she had passed a wild-eyed Coiren Saeldain, sweat streaming down her face, with a Wise One and two tall Aielmen for escort and a large basket heaped with sand bending her back as she staggered up a slope. Yesterday it had been Sarene Nemdahl. They had set her moving handfuls of water from one hide bucket to another beside it, switched her to move faster, then switched her for every drop spilled when the water spilled because they were switching her to move faster. Sarene had stolen a moment to ask Verin why, though not as if she expected any answer. Verin certainly had not been able to supply one before the Maidens drove Sarene back to her useless labor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
CHAPTER: 30 - What the Oath Rod Can Do

"Well over a thousand," Egwene corrected, "and not one a wilder. All women sent away from the Tower, except for a few runaways who evaded capture." She did not raise her voice, but she made each point firmly, meeting Romanda's gaze. "In any case, how do you propose to hunt them down? They are spread through every country, in every sort of occupation. Ebou Dar was the only place they ever gathered or met other than by chance, and all those fled when the Seanchan came. Since the Trolloc Wars, the Kin have allowed the Tower to know only what they wanted known. Two thousand years, hiding under the White Tower's nose. Their numbers have grown while the Tower's numbers dwindled. How do you propose to find them now, among all the wilders out there that the Tower has always ignored because they were 'too old' to become novices? Kinswomen don't stand out in any way, Romanda. They use the Power almost as often as Aes Sedai, but they show age like anyone else, if more slowly. If they want to remain hidden, we will never be able to find them." And that was several more blows for Egwene, with none taken. Romanda wore a faint sheen of sweat on her forehead, a sure sign of desperation in an Aes Sedai. Myrelle was sitting very still, but Maigan seemed about to fall off her stool onto her nose no matter how steady it was.


Newbie86 01-07-2010 08:24 AM

another newbie theory
 
How about this for the missed detail

The Cheoden Khal

originally created to deal with the shadow, they could now fulfill their purpose. The text says that no-one can SAFELY handle that much of the power, but if rand feels he's gonna die what does he care.

We saw early on in the series a sort of resonance between him and the male statue, and they found the access keys in rhuidein ( i think ) in book four, and they were continuously mentioned after that, for books five and six.

Its the age old WoT rule. Jordan puts everything in for a reason, so why invent something so seeminlgy arbitrary as an access key unless someone's gonna try to get around it?

So go ahead and tear that to pieces. Is it possible, even in an extreme sitaution, to access those power reserves without the keys? Even if it meant being burnt to a crisp? Not sure how it would affect story, particularily now rand doesn't want to use them - it was just a thought.

Terez 01-07-2010 08:26 AM

The Choedan Kal have been destroyed - not just the access keys, but the statues themselves.

Newbie86 01-07-2010 08:30 AM

fair enough

it was off the top of my head - should have researched

Terez 01-07-2010 08:39 AM

It's all good. ;)

GonzoTheGreat 01-07-2010 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 83146)
The Choedan Kal have been destroyed - not just the access keys, but the statues themselves.

No problem. Balefire Rand with enough force, and they'll reappear. How to get the DR back I'll leave as an exercise to the reader. It should be intuitively obvious, of course.

Terez 01-07-2010 09:02 AM

As of the end of The Gathering Storm, it might have been possible to balefire Rand back far enough to recover the male Choedan Kal, but not the female. Getting Rand back wouldn't be much of a problem, though.

FelixPax 01-07-2010 11:11 AM

Hmm...what would happen if one balefire's another balefirer? Would the original person's balefire actions still apply? People & objects removed from the Pattern? Or does the original balefire's destruction created stay intact?


Note, I specifically ignore the prior known example of Rand and Ishamael's balefire streams crossing. Why? Because of their 'bizarre strange link', which seems to tied each of them together as one to some degree. That example is a special exception case, I feel.

Laela 01-07-2010 01:12 PM

Less a theory, more a question
 
Hi all,
I just started rereading TSR, with Brandon's hint in mind. A question hit me, and I don't really know if it is significant, but I'm curious.

Who was left in charge of Mayene once Berelain was made a "guest" of the High Lords in Tear?

It's a small detail, and she's been in every book since her introduction at the beginning of TSR.

Shrug!

-L

Kimon 01-07-2010 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laela (Post 83200)
Hi all,
I just started rereading TSR, with Brandon's hint in mind. A question hit me, and I don't really know if it is significant, but I'm curious.

Who was left in charge of Mayene once Berelain was made a "guest" of the High Lords in Tear?

It's a small detail, and she's been in every book since her introduction at the beginning of TSR.

Shrug!

-L


Originally it was likely either Galenne or Annoura, as they seem not to have been with Berelain in Book 3- Gallenne may have been, the mention of correspondence to Annoura makes clear that she at least was not. After they went to Cairhien...probably some insignificant non-entity. So not Demandred, if that was where you were heading. Where Demandred is and what he is up to still seems to be little more than wild speculation, but I have a hard time thinking that he, or anything else of significance for the overall plot is occuring in Mayene.

What this overlooked thing in Books 4-6 might be I haven't the slightest clue, but then I was also caught off guard by its apparent counterpart in the Mistborn series...

Terez 01-07-2010 08:35 PM

I doubt we would have been caught off-guard by the Mistborn detail if we'd had a few years to analyze it. Most of us read the trilogy pretty much straight through without any re-reads. Imagine how much more would have caught us off-guard in WoT if we'd read it that way; as it is, there was much that did not surprise us. And we haven't even reached the end game yet....


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