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nategator 01-09-2010 05:38 AM

Demandred, balefire, and last 3 to die
 
Grr, I had a lot more written out but it got deleted when I tried to post. Here is a quick summary of some other options, all from Lord of Chaos:

1. In the prologue Demandred has secret instructions, involving balefire. He originally doesn't want to use balefire, but he's promised Na'blis so goes along with it. Later, in the epilogue, Demandred fills in Graendal, Mes, and Sami on the plan (ironically the last 4 not to die) the plan involving Lord of Chaos ruling and other stuff. Mes thinks it's a gamble and both Demandred and Mes wonder if the DO actually has another plan and is playing them. Clearly even the foresaken don't want to destroy reality. Later on we learn that Ishy thinks that is what the DO intends to do and is feeling sad. The DO seems to like balefire, and we do see Rand using it alot. Also, the only guy who really knows whether people can be brought back from balefire is the DO, who kinda lies (admittedly the last part is a stretch). Anyways, DO likes balefire and wants lots of it = bad.

Or think of it this way. You want to kill all life on the planet, but can only use human beings. Best way to do that is convince people to build lots of atomic bombs and then set them off all at once. But any logical person would realize that building a lot of bombs is retarded, since everyone pretty much dies if they are in any significant amount. So how do you convince them to do it? You set them at each other's throats and convince them that losing is just as bad as killing the planet (i.e. Light thinks that if Dark wins, it's hell on earth, Dark thinks Light wins they all go literally to hell). Then, you make sure that you keep the conflict going on both sides, sowing as much chaos as possible. By playing both sides, you get them to do things they would never do on their own under any circumstances.

2. Properties of the bore. This probably fails cause it's been discussed, but it's interesting that the Bore is not in the Pit of Doom. The Pit of Doom is just a place the pattern is weak. So where is the Bore that must be sealed? Some place that is equal distance from everywhere else. In other words, is it outside reality/pattern? Maybe inbetween the DO's prison and the pattern like a bridge?

3. Demandred references the "day of return." Presumably this is the DO's return. Which begs the question, when did the DO ever get there to begin with? Is this just a lie or does a DO "tie" = the DO gaining access to reality but not breaking the pattern?

I still think Mat's hat is the winner btw. But the reason why I like Demandred as well is because we haven't seen much of him but he is referenced pretty strongly here and in other prologues/epilogues. We know something is up, but don't know why. We thought it had to do with Taim = Demandred but we know that is wrong. So, we may have missed some big hints here thinking we knew more than we did (typical RJ red herring games). Anyways, what BS seems to say is that we were given plot points for a big payoff that we should have seen coming, but missed, and Demandred's secret instructions are still in play.

Finally, and this would be really cool if RJ did this but didn't tell us, is have little snippets throughout the books indicating that Demandred balefired something and screwed up the Light. The Light wouldn't know because of the whole time reversal thing (remember Mat can't remember that he died, Grendal's compulsion disappeared once balefired, etc.). The bailfiror and those in his immediate area know what he did, everyone else probably not. If true, then on a reread we could see where Demandred & Co. were setting up the DO's plan by following the indications of balefire. Sorta like, "We thought that X person did Y but turns out he didn't and X has mysteriously disappeared." This is a long shot.

Terez 01-09-2010 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nategator (Post 83431)
Grr, I had a lot more written out but it got deleted when I tried to post. Here is a quick summary of some other options, all from Lord of Chaos:

1. In the prologue Demandred has secret instructions, involving balefire. He originally doesn't want to use balefire, but he's promised Na'blis so goes along with it. Later, in the epilogue, Demandred fills in Graendal, Mes, and Sami on the plan (ironically the last 4 not to die) the plan involving Lord of Chaos ruling and other stuff. Mes thinks it's a gamble and both Demandred and Mes wonder if the DO actually has another plan and is playing them. Clearly even the foresaken don't want to destroy reality. Later on we learn that Ishy thinks that is what the DO intends to do and is feeling sad. The DO seems to like balefire, and we do see Rand using it alot. Also, the only guy who really knows whether people can be brought back from balefire is the DO, who kinda lies (admittedly the last part is a stretch). Anyways, DO likes balefire and wants lots of it = bad.

RJ has been dodgy on this issue. Well, not on who could be brought back from balefire - he specifically said that the Dark One could not bring someone back who had been balefired unless the amount of balefire was 'very small' - but on whether or not the Forsaken are using balefire at the Dark One's orders to destroy the Pattern. If you look in the One Power category of the interview database you can see that we've had conflicting reports from signings on that. In any case, it's been discussed a great deal before this book, because of Demandred's orders in Lord of Chaos, and particularly because of his appearance in the epilogue. And after that we get almost nothing from Demandred. It may be that Demandred stopped using balefire when Moridin showed up and was named Nae'blis; that title was probably the only incentive strong enough to make him willing to use it. For all we know, he might have balefired whole cities in Shara, and this is why the Pattern started falling apart, an indirect touch of the Dark One. So far as I can recall, our first indication of the Pattern falling apart was in Winter's Heart, when Rand saw the ghosts of Torval and Gedwyn in Far Madding (if they were indeed ghosts and not some thing of illusion made by Fain), and that was also around the time when the Keepings and the wards in the Tower started to fail (the pace of such things picked up in Crossroads).

Quote:

Originally Posted by nategator
2. Properties of the bore. This probably fails cause it's been discussed, but it's interesting that the Bore is not in the Pit of Doom. The Pit of Doom is just a place the pattern is weak. So where is the Bore that must be sealed? Some place that is equal distance from everywhere else. In other words, is it outside reality/pattern? Maybe inbetween the DO's prison and the pattern like a bridge?

There is some thought from 13th Depository, particularly from Dom, that Tel'aran'rhiod will be required to seal the Dark One's prison, and that this will be Egwene's ultimate role in the series - not that she will have the ultimate role of the sealing; Rand is obviously the most crucial element - but Egwene will be important, and we'll see men and women working together. Also from 13th Depository, Linda thinks that the Aiel singing will have some role in the sealing. I like that idea too.

However, there is a paraphrased signing report from RJ saying that the Blight cannot be reached in Tel'aran'rhiod because it is part of a different reality. For all we know, the Talisman of Growing that the girls found in the Ebou Dar stash might be needed to seal the prison. Some think the 'three become one' will have something to do with it; Rand's three girls, Rand and Callandor and two girls, the three ta'veren, etc.

In any case, keep in mind that the only way to seal the Bore is to smooth over the glitch in the Pattern, the thinness where he can be sensed. The thinness itself was probably a result of effort from the Dark One on his side of the fence. Probably every time, that Power is eventually sensed, and investigated, some time relatively soon after the One Power is rediscovered. Also, it is not only that thinness at Shayol Ghul that needs repairing; there is also the damage done to the Pattern so far (whether by direct or indirect touch of the Dark One). It would seem too easy for all that to go away just because the prison is sealed. It may be that the thinness in the Pattern can be corrected from Tel'aran'rhiod despite the fact that the Dark One can't be sensed there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nategator
3. Demandred references the "day of return." Presumably this is the DO's return. Which begs the question, when did the DO ever get there to begin with? Is this just a lie or does a DO "tie" = the DO gaining access to reality but not breaking the pattern?

I imagine that the Dark One has told them of his days of freedom or some such, or at least hinted at it. He need not lie to set the Forsaken to theorizing about it. There is evidence that Ishamael was somewhat of an open proselytizer for a time in the Age of Legends, writing letters to people about his philosophies on the ancient battle. Since he is obviously the closest to the Dark One and always has been, despite the Forsaken's attempts to pretend otherwise, I imagine that he is the source of a number of their beliefs.

Also, it is a good bloody hat.

dominominic 01-09-2010 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 83435)
In any case, keep in mind that the only way to seal the Bore is to smooth over the glitch in the Pattern, the thinness where he can be sensed.

Didn't Herid Fel imply that the prison had to be leveled entirely(clear the rubble etcetera) before it could be rebuilt?

Or was he just referring to breaking the seals?

Terez 01-09-2010 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dominominic (Post 83475)
Didn't Herid Fel imply that the prison had to be leveled entirely(clear the rubble etcetera) before it could be rebuilt?

Or was he just referring to breaking the seals?

Just breaking the seals. 'Have to clear rubble before you can build.' I'm guessing that the seals worked as a block of sorts, but that they need to be cleared away before the Pattern can be mended.

dominominic 01-09-2010 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 83488)
Just breaking the seals

Yes, on second thoughts it would be asking a bit much of Rand to remake the whole pattern!

FelixPax 01-09-2010 11:48 PM

Welcome the Theoryland, nategator! Hope to see your around. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by nategator (Post 83431)
I still think Mat's hat is the winner btw.

Laugh, why is this theory relatively popular lately? When it has so many limitations and problems?


For example, would that bloody Hat retain a bonding after possibly being destroyed by Rahvin's lightning?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Fires of Heaven - Chapter 54 "To Caemlyn" - Rand's pov
There had been more than one bolt in that first volley, but not all had been aimed at him. Matís smoking boots lay a dozen paces from where Mat himself sprawled on his back. Tendrils of smoke rose from the black haft of his spear, too, from his coat, even from the silver foxhead, hanging out of his shirt, that had not saved him from a manís channeling. Asmodean was a twisted shape of char, recognizable only from the blackened harpcase still strapped to his back.

Would balefire return a bonding weave to Mat's Hat or not, after be destroyed?


Not even to mention that bonding weave degrade over time, unless applied to metal. Mat's Hat has no known metal on it. There isn't one quote in the story, showing a piece of metal as part of the hat.


If Lanfear was as knowledgeable about bonding weaves, as Moiraine was known to be (tEoW book) with the Tar Valon marks given to Mat, Perrin & Rand. Lanfear would have applied a bonding weave to an object of metal, not a bloody hat....

nategator 01-10-2010 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixPax (Post 83543)
Welcome the Theoryland, nategator! Hope to see your around. :)



Laugh, why is this theory relatively popular lately? When it has so many limitations and problems?


For example, would that bloody Hat retain a bonding after possibly being destroyed by Rahvin's lightning?



Would balefire return a bonding weave to Mat's Hat or not, after be destroyed?


Not even to mention that bonding weave degrade over time, unless applied to metal. Mat's Hat has no known metal on it. There isn't one quote in the story, showing a piece of metal as part of the hat.


If Lanfear was as knowledgeable about bonding weaves, as Moiraine was known to be (tEoW book) with the Tar Valon marks given to Mat, Perrin & Rand. Lanfear would have applied a bonding weave to an object of metal, not a bloody hat....

Or, maybe it's as simple as a connection between Lanfear and an object. We don't know how she escaped, and everything indicates that the 'finns don't let their captives escape. Maybe the hat is useful to get Lanfear back or track her down?

And if you thought that was a stretch, wait till you hear this one. May the hat has some kind of metal properties that are magically hidden. Like an ironweave magically concealed or something. Lanfear hid it cause it would stick out but needed metal to track Mat. We still don't know how Mat is supposed to smuggle in iron (unlike fire = matches and music = Thom, yes I know the blood theory, but I just can't get behind it), so if the hat was laced with metal that constitutes iron for tracking purposes, it could save the day. Damn bloody lucky Lanfear gave him a magic hat!

I bet Brandon reads this thread and decides to torch the hat right away, that or have Lanfear when seeing a drawing of Matt think, "my god, what an ugly hat. Where could he have gotten such a thing?"

Terez 01-10-2010 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nategator (Post 83548)
And if you thought that was a stretch, wait till you hear this one. May the hat has some kind of metal properties that are magically hidden. Like an ironweave magically concealed or something. Lanfear hid it cause it would stick out but needed metal to track Mat.

Well, hats were sealed with mercury back in the day, so maybe Lanfear could have used that to put a Finder on him. But she doesn't appear to have used it.

Belazamon 01-10-2010 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixPax (Post 83543)
For example, would that bloody Hat retain a bonding after possibly being destroyed by Rahvin's lightning?

Why not? Due to balefire effects, it never was destroyed after all.

Tercel 01-11-2010 04:51 PM

I was just reading the LoC prologue, and an interesting statement struck me. Rand was talking to Taim and saying (I paraphrase) "The forsaken have to be killed, obviously, unless you think there is a chance of convincing them to abandon the Shadow the way they abandoned the Light? [Rand asks wryly, assuming the answer is 'no']".

I think this is a foreshadowing at the very least, and possibly even the 'small detail'. Rand comments in tGS that Ishamael/Moridin turned to the shadow because his 'logic' lead him astray. But if wrong logic lead him astray, correct logic could lead him back again. Moridin doesn't really want the Shadow to win, exactly, he sees it as inevitable. If he became convinced that the Shadow's victory was not an inevitability he would turn back to the Light immediately. In a way, he's a not-quite-Verin.

(Of course he might turn against the Shadow just because his link to Rand is causing him physical pain and he is afraid of what might happen to himself if Rand died.)

FelixPax 01-12-2010 04:55 PM

That darn 'Bloody Hat binder theory' needs a reason to be
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 83563)
Well, hats were sealed with mercury back in the day, so maybe Lanfear could have used that to put a Finder on him. But she doesn't appear to have used it.

We haven't seen a Mad Hatter type character in the story, either. Mercury caused many bad things to happen to the individuals who made those hats, back in the days, too.


What's the point of a binder on Mat's Hat in the story if it lacks a use, no?


So does your faction, Terez, think that Lanfear would use that binder finder on Mat's Hat to seek him within the Eelfinn's own realm?

  • Was Mat's musing about Lanfear in tGS book, a foreshadowing of future events in the Tower of Ghenjei?
  • Like a damsel-in-distress, Lanfear cries out for help to Mat is the far distance? Would Mat be shocked to learn Lanfear is with Moiraine, under the Eelfinn's thumb?
  • Would that be why Mat might lose an eye, to save both Moiraine and Lanfear from the Eelfinn?



Your faction's Bloody Hat needs a reason for the binder to exist, and to see the light of day in this story.... Why, hasn't it been used previously in the story for example, that binder, if it exists at all? Who, how and when will it be used you think? What is different now to call for the need to find Mat with a binder via his Bloody Hat?


Would Lanfear's imprisonment in the Eelfinn's realm be reason enough, for Terez's 'Mad Hatter' theory?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Gathering Storm, Chapter "The Tipsy Gelding", see page 402 - Mat pov
Mat had little love for Moiraine, but he wouldn't leave her to them, no matter that she was Aes Sedai. Bloody ashes. He'd probably be tempted to ride and save one of the Forsaken themselves if they were trapped there.
And ...maybe one was. Lanfear had fallen through that same portal. Burn him, what would he do if he found her there? Would he really rescue her as well?
You're a fool, Matrim Cauthon. Not a hero. Just a fool.


There is other prior foreshadowing hinting about Mat's future behavior, by Siuan:

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Dragon Reborn book, Chapter 20 "Visitations" - Mat pov with Siuan in the White Tower, after Mat was healed
He frowned, then remembered what the alternative was. If someone else had to sound the Horn . . . “You want me to blow the Horn? Then I’ll blow the Horn. I never said I would not, did I?”
The Amyrlin gave an exasperated sigh. “You remind me of my uncle Huan. No one could ever pin him down. He liked to gamble, too, and he’d much rather have fun than work. He died pulling children out of a burning house. He wouldn’t stop going back as long as there was one left inside. Are you like him, Mat? Will you be there when the flames are high?”
He could not meet her eyes. He studied his fingers as they plucked irritably at his blanket. “I’m no hero. I do what I have to do, but I am no hero.”
“Most of those we call heroes only did what they had to do. I suppose it will have to be enough. For now. You must not speak to anyone but me of the Horn, my son. Or of your link to it.”

Will Lanfear be the 'one left inside' to save from the fire?

Neilbert 01-12-2010 07:37 PM

No.

Weird Harold 01-12-2010 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixPax (Post 83903)
We haven't seen a Mad Hatter type character in the story, either. Mercury caused many bad things to happen to the individuals who made those hats, back in the days, too.

The Black Tower is full of them and the main Character has been "mad as a hatter" for most of the series. :D

FelixPax 01-12-2010 10:18 PM

'Mad as a Hatter'...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 83935)
The Black Tower is full of them and the main Character has been "mad as a hatter" for most of the series. :D

Laughing hard, thanks for your touchť Harold. Tis true, Taim has been as 'mad as a hatter'...maybe even Ishamael too. Both of them could of once been hat makers years ago, during their first job. Even the Nae'blis had to of become insane from something years ago... ;)

Casabamelon 01-13-2010 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixPax (Post 83946)
Laughing hard, thanks for your touch? Harold. Tis true, Taim has been as 'mad as a hatter'...maybe even Ishamael too. Both of them could of once been hat makers years ago, during their first job. Even the Nae'blis had to of become insane from something years ago... ;)

Don't forget the guy who's been arguing with a voice in his head.
________
Anal Pleasure

Weird Harold 01-13-2010 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixPax (Post 83946)
...Both of them could of once been hat makers years ago, ...

You missed my point that Taint Madness has a lot of similarities to Hatter's Disease or heavy metal poisoning.

Yuri33 01-13-2010 11:34 PM

Actually, there is very little similarity between Rand's madness and the neuropsychiatric sequelae of mercury poisoning.

Weird Harold 01-14-2010 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yuri33 (Post 84076)
Actually, there is very little similarity between Rand's madness and the neuropsychiatric sequelae of mercury poisoning.

That's because Rand's Madness is/was more the result of stress than the taint. Whatever Taint Madness Rand suffers from is masked by the the more immediate and obvious symptoms from other causes. :D

nategator 01-14-2010 03:49 AM

No offense, I think the posts are good. But we are getting a little off topic here...

Terez 01-14-2010 06:02 AM

And? It's what we do.


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