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Spasmodean 01-14-2010 09:40 AM

Started a re-read of book 4 last night, and although it doesn't fit the criteria BS gave us - I'm wondering:
Who is haunting Ordeith's dreams and in what manner?
Where have his leashed Shadowspawn been and what have they been doing on his behalf since?
What bindings and accords did he use to ensure the Myrdraal's obedience.

Terez 01-14-2010 09:41 AM

I got the impression that his memories were haunting his dreams. As for what his chained Fade was for....I suspect that Fain used the Fade to learn how to steal Shadowspawn from the Shadow in large numbers, and that he was behind the attack on Algarin's manor.

FelixPax 01-14-2010 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 84138)
As for what his chained Fade was for....I suspect that Fain used the Fade to learn how to steal Shadowspawn from the Shadow in large numbers, and that he was behind the attack on Algarin's manor.

Why would Fain be behind the Trolloc attack upon Rand at the Algarin manor, just north of Tear proper?

Fain is not a Chosen, and lacks the mark to command around a hundred Myrddraal at will free. You believe Fain tortured over 100 Myrddraal one by one, north of the Blight to create an army to attack Rand there?? I doubt Fain had enough time of day, to successful torture that many Myrddraal in the given time span. That one Myrddraal, Fain tortured in Two Rivers took days and days before deciding to switch sides and help Padan Fain cause.

How do you explain Ishamael's face popping up in Rand head, shortly after the ending of the attack then (KoD book, Chapter 20 "The Golden Crane and again Chapter 21)? Why wouldn't of Ishamael tried to of killed Rand then, with those Trollocs instead? He had ordered Asha'man Kisman to kill Rand earlier, after all in Far Madding.

Terez 01-14-2010 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixPax (Post 84206)
Why would Fain be behind the Trolloc attack upon Rand at the Algarin manor, just north of Tear proper?

Because Rand was there. :rolleyes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felix
Fain is not a Chosen, and lacks the mark to command around a hundred Myrddraal at will free.

Obviously.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felix
You believe Fain tortured over 100 Myrddraal one by one, north of the Blight to create an army to attack Rand there??

No. I believe he tortured one Fade to find out some secrets of the Shadow, some way to steal away Shadowspawn.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felix
How do you explain Ishamael's face popping up in Rand head, shortly after the ending of the attack then (KoD book, Chapter 20 "The Golden Crane and again Chapter 21)?

How do you explain it popping up at other times? This is irrelevant to the question at hand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felix
Why wouldn't of Ishamael tried to of killed Rand then, with those Trollocs instead? He had ordered Asha'man Kisman to kill Rand earlier, after all in Far Madding.

He told Kisman, 'Kill him if you must, but above all, bring everything in his possession to me.' This was most likely before he had figured out that he and Rand were linked, and that if Rand died, he would likely die also. I believe it is clear from the scene in 'At the Gardens' that Ishamael did not send the attack. I realize that he could have been lying, but I don't buy it.

dominominic 01-14-2010 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 84211)
Because Rand was there

Wouldn't that be a bit...impersonal for Fain?

Terez 01-14-2010 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dominominic (Post 84213)
Wouldn't that be a bit...impersonal for Fain?

No more than the incident where he sent the Whitecloaks to kill Rand in Caemlyn. He thought that he would have been upset if they had been successful, but he did order it, and it was only bare chance that Rand survived. He wants to kill Rand with his own hands, but he has to know by now that his chances are slim; he mainly wants to be free of the ingrained need to hunt Rand, and his only attempts to kill Rand since the Caemlyn attack were desperate ones (taking advantage of the bubble of evil in Cairhien, and trying to get at Rand in Far Madding where he couldn't use the Power). However, that need to hunt is Fain's, and Mordeth has grander plans than Fain, and knowing Mordeth, Fain's desire to strike at the Shadow would fit well with Mordeth's tendency to use the Shadow's tactics to fight the Shadow. The theft of that many Shadowspawn would be a blow to the Shadow that either Fain or Mordeth would jump at, and if Rand just happens to be killed in the process, then more the better.

dominominic 01-14-2010 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 84218)
However, that need to hunt is Fain's, and Mordeth has grander plans than Fain.

Thanks. Sometimes I forget there's that, well not quite conflict in Fain/Mordeth, but difference-of-motivation I guess.

FelixPax 01-14-2010 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dominominic (Post 84213)
Wouldn't that be a bit...impersonal for Fain?

Slayer has been ordered to kill Fain; so why would Ishamael have any reason to lie to cover up any role Fain maybe have played here?

Other Forsaken already knew about the rebel Padan Fain...and the need to kill him, Osan'gar among them.


In the tEoW book, Ishamael was the one ordering the Myddraal to push the Trollocs after Rand, not Padan Fain. Padan lacked the necessary marking to order around Myrddraal from the Shadow. Otherwise, why would of Fain killed that one particular Myrddraal in that abandoned village south of Shienar in the 'The Great Hunt' book?

Fain lacks the ability to do, what you suggest Terez, on the very large scale you suggest.

Myddraal can notice the difference between non-channelers and channelers, and Ishamael suggested Sammael did it--a male forsaken. Fain cannot channel at all.

Ishamael, Aran'gar, Demandred are the only possibilities, outside of Sammael as Ishamael suggested--we know of.

Terez 01-14-2010 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixPax (Post 84233)
Slayer has been ordered to kill Fain; so why would Ishamael have any reason to lie to cover up any role Fain maybe have played here?

1. He doesn't know it was Fain.

2. He's embarrassed that a non-Forsaken managed to pull one over on him, so he attributes it to Sammael, because no one else saw Sammael die (technically he didn't either, but he is smart enough to figure out that Sammael got eaten by Mashadar in the instant that he wasn't looking).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felix
In the tEoW book, Ishamael was the one ordering the Myddraal to push the Trollocs after Rand, not Padan Fain. Padan lacked the necessary marking to order around Myrddraal from the Shadow.

This was before Fain merged with Mordeth; most of his powers come from Mordeth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felix
Otherwise, why would of Fain killed that one particular Myrddraal in that abandoned village south of Shienar in the 'The Great Hunt' book?

He was only just then coming into his powers, hence the back-and-forth between him and the Fade until he finally managed to kill the Fade in that village, at which point he was in full control. He had progressed enough to be able to capture and torture a Fade in The Shadow Rising, and we have no idea how much he was able to get out of that Fade.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felix
Fain lacks the ability to do, what you suggest Terez, on the very large scale you suggest.

We have been told almost nothing about Fain's abilities since Lord of Chaos, and we were told little enough before then. RJ said Fain is his wild card character - that means he can do anything - so I wouldn't suggest underestimating what he is capable of.

Neilbert 01-14-2010 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 84211)
No. I believe he tortured one Fade to find out some secrets of the Shadow, some way to steal away Shadowspawn.

If one Fade told another that they had both been ordered by a Forsaken to do X, would the second Fade believe the first and follow the orders?

I doubt Myrdraal each have to be individually commanded by a Forsaken.

Terez 01-15-2010 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neilbert (Post 84239)
If one Fade told another that they had both been ordered by a Forsaken to do X, would the second Fade believe the first and follow the orders?

That is far from the only scenario of what Fain got that Fade to do.

Yuri33 01-15-2010 10:16 AM

We've debated this before. You're Fain scenario leaves the entire Shadowspawn network too vulnerable. All it takes is one compromised Fade to commandeer a massive Shadowspawn army?

Terez 01-15-2010 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yuri33 (Post 84280)
We've debated this before. You're Fain scenario leaves the entire Shadowspawn network too vulnerable. All it takes is one compromised Fade to commandeer a massive Shadowspawn army?

Not necessarily. It could be that Fain's gamble was something like his occasional attempts to swipe at Rand, very risky and not likely to succeed (he did actually manage to get Rand once, and that should have been enough...but Rand survived, so Fain made one last desperate attempt in Far Madding where Rand would be vulnerable, and with no one to Heal him, and even that didn't work). The ultimate end of Fain's power over Fades probably won't be a massive Shadowspawn mutiny (though Fain might have accomplished the same a few more times, that 100,000 was just a drop in the bucket), but rather a confrontation with Shaidar Haran. Channelers don't seem to stand a chance against him, but he would be right up Fain's alley.

Yuri33 01-15-2010 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez
It could be that Fain's gamble was something like his occasional attempts to swipe at Rand, very risky and not likely to succeed (he did actually manage to get Rand once, and that should have been enough...but Rand survived, so Fain made one last desperate attempt in Far Madding where Rand would be vulnerable, and with no one to Heal him, and even that didn't work).

We're talking about feasabilitiy, not whether or not he would if he could.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez
but rather a confrontation with Shaidar Haran. Channelers don't seem to stand a chance against him, but he would be right up Fain's alley.

No one doubts that a confrontation with SH would be poetic, but this has nothing to do with the Shadowspawn army sent to Algarin's manor.

You require some as of yet unknown mechanism whereby control over a single (or even a few) Mydraal gains access to a 100k+ Shadowspawn army. Any scenario relying on this will be as unsubstantiated as the next.

Neilbert 01-15-2010 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yuri33 (Post 84280)
You require some as of yet unknown mechanism whereby control over a single (or even a few) Mydraal gains access to a 100k+ Shadowspawn army. Any scenario relying on this will be as unsubstantiated as the next.

You seem to think that each Fade requires individual orders, which is just absurd. Obviously when Forsaken X wants to send an army to location Y, he doesn't go around rounding up each individual Fade and telling it to saddle up for war, because that would just be stupid.

Terez 01-15-2010 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yuri33 (Post 84288)
We're talking about feasabilitiy, not whether or not he would if he could.

You suggested that the Shadowspawn network would be compromised if Fain could do this. That is the point that I was rebutting. Pay attention.

Yuri33 01-16-2010 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez
You suggested that the Shadowspawn network would be compromised if Fain could do this. That is the point that I was rebutting. Pay attention.

Your "rebuttal" says nothing about my point. It was a "gamble"? How does that even make sense?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neilbert
You seem to think that each Fade requires individual orders, which is just absurd.

I never made such an absurd claim. But it's even more absurd to assume that you can get a massive Shadowspawn army to move through the ever dangerous Ways and attack a random manor in Tear by coercing a single Fade.

Terez 01-16-2010 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yuri33 (Post 84382)
Your "rebuttal" says nothing about my point. It was a "gamble"? How does that even make sense?

Easy: the Shadowspawn network isn't 'left too vulnerable' because it's not the sort of thing that Fain could pull off any time he wanted to. :rolleyes:

Also, Fain could well have gotten his hands on other Fades via the info that he got from the one Fade. We have absolutely no idea what he's been up to since book 6 outside of Toram Riatin and Far Madding, and we were given a few hints in the early books about what he might have been getting up to during that time. The Fade has something to do with it; that much is clear.

Yuri33 01-16-2010 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez
the Shadowspawn network isn't 'left too vulnerable' because it's not the sort of thing that Fain could pull off any time he wanted to.

Also, Fain could well have gotten his hands on other Fades via the info that he got from the one Fade.

By your proposal, he coerces one Fade, which gains him access to more Fades, and pretty soon he commands an army. Where's the risk? What would prevent him from trying this again? And what's to prevent some other entity (not Fain) from exploiting the same vulnerability?

Whoever sent the attack in Tear went through a lot of trouble to hide his/her identity, knowing that only the Chosen can typically initiate such an attack. Where have we seen this before? Luc/Isam's failed attack in Far Madding:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
WH, Out of Thin Air:
For a moment he studied the faces of the man and woman on the bed, then pinched out the candle's flame and returned the candle to his pocket before stepping back into Tel'aran'rhiod.
His patron of the moment was waiting for him. A man, he was sure of that much, but Luc could not look at him. It was not as it was with those slimy Gray Men, whom you just did not notice. He had killed one of them, once, in the White Tower itself. They felt cold and empty to the touch. It had been like killing a corpse. No, this man had done something with the Power so Luc's eyes slid away from him like water sliding down glass. Even seen at the corner of the eye, he was a blur.
"The pair sleeping in this room will sleep forever," Luc said, "but the man was bald, the woman gray."
"A pity," the man said, and the voice seemed to melt in Luc's ears. He would not be able to recognize it if he heard it without the disguise. The man had to be one of the Chosen. Few save the Chosen knew how to reach him, and none of the men among those few could channel, or would have dared trying to command him. His services were always begged, except by the Great Lord himself, and more recently by the Chosen, but none of the Chosen Luc had met had ever taken such precautions as this.
"Do you want me to try again?" Luc asked.
"Perhaps. When I tell you. Not before. Remember, not a word of this to anyone."
"As you command," Luc replied, bowing, but the man was already making a gateway, a hole that opened into a snowy forest glade. He was gone before Luc straightened.

There are a lot of parallels between this and Moridin's description in KoD of a person masquerading as Sammael.

I believe the same person who ordered Slayer is the one who sent the attack on Rand in Tear. In both instances that person went through great lengths to hide his/her identity. If that's the case, then we know it can't be Fain, since Fain has no power to enter TAR, nor make gateways. I believe the evidence here is significantly stronger than the torture of a single Fade last mentioned over 6 books prior to the supposed fruit of that torture.

Terez 01-16-2010 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yuri33 (Post 84387)
By your proposal, he coerces one Fade, which gains him access to more Fades, and pretty soon he commands an army.

Wat? I never claimed I knew the details on how it happened. I know you love putting words in my mouth, but it just means that you're arguing with yourself, not with me.


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