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Yuri33 01-16-2010 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez
Also, Fain could well have gotten his hands on other Fades via the info that he got from the one Fade.

Excuse me for putting words in your mouth.

Terez 01-16-2010 05:23 PM

You missed a few things. Namely the fact that I said there is far from only one scenario about what Fain got that Fade to do. The above quote is one scenario (and even that scenario has a number of different ways that it could play out). You're being incredibly narrow-minded about the whole thing.

FelixPax 01-16-2010 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 84281)
Not necessarily.

There is no proof Padan Fain Mordeth can do what your claiming, Terez.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez
It could be that Fain's gamble was something like his occasional attempts to swipe at Rand, very risky and not likely to succeed (he did actually manage to get Rand once, and that should have been enough...but Rand survived, so Fain made one last desperate attempt in Far Madding where Rand would be vulnerable, and with no one to Heal him, and even that didn't work).

Padan Fain Mordeth was not taking a gamble in Cairhien, he actively thought ahead of time to try to push the rebels in Cairhien & Tear against Rand in both of those countries. He began that planning likely in Caemlyn:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord of Chaos, Chapter 28 "Letters" - Padan Fain pov
Fain paced; he had to move. AlíThorís downfall had to be his doingóhis!ónot the Chosenís. How could he hurt the man again, hurt to the heart? There were those nattering girls at Culainís Hound, but if alíThor did not come when the Two Rivers was harrowed, what would he care even if Fain burned the inn down and the chits with it? What did he have to work with? Only a few remained of his onetime Children of the Light. That had only been a test reallyóhe would have made the man who actually managed to kill alíThor beg to be skinned alive!óyet it had cost him numbers. He had the Myrddraal, a handful of Trollocs hidden outside the city, a few Darkfriends gathered in Caemlyn and on the way from Tar Valon. The pull of alíThor dragged him on. It was the most remarkable thing about Darkfriends. There should be nothing to single out a Darkfriend from anyone else, but of late he found he could tell one at a glance, even someone who had only thought of swearing to the Shadow, as if they had a sooty mark on their foreheads.

Fain might be nuts, but he's not suicidal enough to head where the Chosen reign, the Blight to command around 100,000 Trollocs and associated Myrddraal.

Thumbing himself in both Ishamael's and Rand's own plans by way of advising the King of Murandy to make a secret treaty with the Seanchan Empire is far more likely.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez
The ultimate end of Fain's power over Fades probably won't be a massive Shadowspawn mutiny (though Fain might have accomplished the same a few more times, that 100,000 was just a drop in the bucket), but rather a confrontation with Shaidar Haran.

Speculating again, Terez? :p Gholem would have a better chance against Shaidar Haran than Padan Fain Mordeth would....

Neilbert 01-17-2010 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yuri33 (Post 84382)
I never made such an absurd claim. But it's even more absurd to assume that you can get a massive Shadowspawn army to move through the ever dangerous Ways and attack a random manor in Tear by coercing a single Fade.

Any one of the Forsaken could get a massive Shadowspawn army to move through the Ways and attack wherever they felt like by coercing a single (or absolutely no more than a few) Fade.

You seem to think that Fades are easy to coerce. Fain is on a rather short list of people with the ability to successfully torture a Fade. Getting a Fade to continue to obey orders once released back into the wild is likely unheard of.

Bonzi77 01-18-2010 10:18 AM

Since some or all of Fain/Mordeth's powers came from the evil of Shadar Logoth, perhaps he has the power to temporarily assume the form of someone who was consumed by Mashadar. That would give him the ability to appear as Sammael and therefore the ability to command Fades and huge armies of Trollocs. It would explain some of the random Trolloc attacks and why Moridin thought Sammael had resurfaced. Obviously there's a lot of ifs and maybes in that theory, but it would make some sense.

nameless 01-18-2010 05:24 PM

He can definitely create illusions of dead men come back to life whether or not Mashadar is the cause of death, as he proved in Far Madding, but I doubt even he could recreate the Chosen Mark, which the impostor Sammael is reported to have had.

Neilbert 01-18-2010 06:06 PM

He wasn't reported to have the chosen mark, Morridin believes it was one of the chosen to give the orders simply because the Myrdraal obeyed.

Terez 01-18-2010 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nameless (Post 84477)
He can definitely create illusions of dead men come back to life whether or not Mashadar is the cause of death, as he proved in Far Madding, but I doubt even he could recreate the Chosen Mark, which the impostor Sammael is reported to have had.

Those might have been ghosts. If so, they were the first ghosts we saw, but it was sort of on the edge of that phenomenon, possibly on purpose (to disguise his illusion ability). Brandon said that Sammael couldn't be transmigrated because Mashadar twisted his soul, so there's definitely something in the idea that this would give Fain some sort of ability to reproduce Sammael. Not a lot of evidence for it - just speculation - but that's the breaks when dealing with the 'wild card' character that RJ was purposefully secretive about.

We've had 4 whole books with no Fain at all, the last 3 in a row, and his appearances in 5, 6, 7 and 9 were pretty brief, especially the latter two. So I am ready for some more Fain in the next book. Brandon has hinted that he will be visiting a few plotlines we haven't heard anything from in a while, and Fain and Slayer are really the only ones that qualify, though I expect we'll get a point of view from within the Borderlander camp (haven't had one of those since book 8, but we did at least see them in the meantime). Also, it would be nice to have a Taim point of view, or a Logain one, or both. Haven't had either yet.

FelixPax 01-19-2010 04:01 AM

Will this conversion move back to the "missing detail" in book 4 and/or book 6?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 84492)
Brandon said that Sammael couldn't be transmigrated because Mashadar twisted his soul, so there's definitely something in the idea that this would give Fain some sort of ability to reproduce Sammael.

If Fain has the ability to reproduce Sammael, why does not he just reproduce Rand's present too: so he can royally screw-up where all Rand's armies are heading? Say lead one army into attacking another of his armies, as Graendal did in Arad Doman?

Since then Rand did cut his hand while holding the source within Aridhol; and Padan Fain cuts his own hand on that red ruby dagger, what's the difference?

Sammael was killed by the Mashadar fog in Aridhol, while holding the source. We know of no time Padan Fain touched the Mashadar fog for sure though.

Padan Fain did not even want the chance being captured by one of Shadow's minions within Aridhol, so why would he even consider heading into the Blight and recruiting Trollocs? He would not go again to Aridhol, he said flat out. Why would he go to the Blight again, with Shadowspawn everywhere under the Chosen's control? :rolleyes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord of Chaos book - Padan Fain pov
The dagger was there. He felt its pull where he stood. He could have pointed to it. It was his, a part of him, stolen and mired away here by these Aes Sedai. Having the dagger would make up for so much lost; he was not sure how, but he was sure it would. For Aridhol lost. Too dangerous to return to Aridhol, perchance to be trapped there again. He shivered. So long trapped. Not again.


Let alone the limited time span available between Padan Fain disappearance in Winter Heart, Chapter 33 to Knife Dreams, Chapter 19. That is only 30 days of time to move 100,000 Trollocs and associated Myrddraal from the Blight into Haddon Mirk area:

Winter Heart, Ch.33 = Day 715 (Saban-21)
Knife Dreams, Ch.19 = Day 745 (Aine-22)

745-715 = 30 Days, between Fain's disappearance and the attack on Rand in manor house in Haddon Mirk by 100,000+ Trollocs, Myrddraal.


Not to mention gaining control of the whole mass of shadowspawn. You do the math of figuring out the average Shadowspawn converted per hour over 30 days....


Even Slayer did not move this many Trollocs into Two Rivers to try to kill Perrin, nor when trying to kill Padan Fain. And Slayer had five other Waygates in the Mountains of Mist, he could of used besides the one that Gaul & Loial finally closed.


If anything Padan Fain is highly similar to the Rand al'Thor before his change in tGS Chapter "Veins of Gold", each has an one sided goal of destroying something. Padan Fain desires the destruction of Rand; while Rand desires the destruction of the Dark One.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord of Chaos book
Fain’s eyes went to the painting of the two men, and as he gazed at it, his back straightened. Al’Thor’s portrait tugged at him almost as much as the man would, sent rage and hate roiling along his veins. Because of that young man he had suffered pain beyond remembering, pain he did not let himself remember, suffered far worse than pain. He had been broken and remade because of al’Thor. Of course, that remaking gave him the means of revenge, but that was beside the point. Beside his desire for al’Thor’s destruction, everything else dimmed from sight.

In Rand's case, just look how he changes after that cuts on his hand in Aridhol. The Rand of the majority of tGS in Arab Doman, seems eerily similar to Mordeth's own cry:

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Eye of the World book, Chapter 19 - Rand pov with Moiraine speaking
Aridhol drew in on itself, hardened. It was said that some would rather see Trollocs come than the men of Aridhol. The victory of the Light is all. That was the battlecry Mordeth gave them, and the men of Aridhol shouted it while their deeds abandoned the Light.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez
Not a lot of evidence for it - just speculation - but that's the breaks when dealing with the 'wild card' character that RJ was purposefully secretive about.

Has no one else ever thought to comparing Aridhol to Lugard together? :D

If Padan Fain believes that all Rand cares about is power, why wouldn't he seek to attack the very thing Rand supposedly cares for?

Rand's Laurel Crown of Illian, renamed the Crown of Swords? The destruction of Illian, would cause Rand pain in Fain's view, which is wants Fain desires.

Many characters at various times in the series, have hinted at movement from Amacidia and/or Altara going into Murandy to get into Illian; why not the Seanchan Army too? Possibly with Padan Fain's assistance in manipulating Murandy's King to attack the very thing Rand supposedly cares about, Illian? Andor?

The King of Murandy, already attempted to double cross Talmanes and the Band of Red Hand (KoD). Why not someone else next?

Quote:

We've had 4 whole books with no Fain at all, the last 3 in a row, and his appearances in 5, 6, 7 and 9 were pretty brief, especially the latter two. So I am ready for some more Fain in the next book.
Brandon called Fain a minor character, back during his 'Hero of Ages' book tour. He did not really seem to care for Fain at all, during my questioning about him then. Wonder if Brandon has changed his tune on Fain or not, since then?

I expect to see Valan Luca going through Murandy with his circus. A special performance in Lugard for the King, perhaps? Padan Fain in attendence, maybe? A point of view from Luca, King Roedran and/or Fain possibly? Likely the performance would be told as a story to Mat and/or Elayne when Luca is in Caemlyn.

Terez 01-27-2010 04:25 PM

I don't think anyone has mentioned the unseen eyes in Tel'aran'rhiod yet, so I figured I'd throw that out there.

GonzoTheGreat 01-27-2010 05:09 PM

Those are just the *finns, aren't they?

Baravius Hallendren 01-29-2010 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 85412)
Those are just the *finns, aren't they?

Where did you get that idea? I was under the impression that they have nothing to do with TAR. This could be the missing detail. I haven't seen it discussed much. Could they be another type of "magic" like Mashadar. There were unseen eyes in Shadar Logoth.

Crispin's Crispian 01-29-2010 12:41 PM

I think the "unseen eyes" are the souls of dead people who are not Heroes. Or maybe they're just the Heroes who choose not to reveal themselves.

Baravius Hallendren 01-29-2010 12:58 PM

It could be. I thought it was always Birgitte until she got yanked. Have we seen them since?

GonzoTheGreat 01-29-2010 01:09 PM

Yes, but there might be other nosy Heroes, so that's not an argument against the theory.

Based on the evidence, most (perhaps all) Heroes have caught on to the idea of making themselves invisible when snooping around in TAR, so the fact that they can't be seen doesn't mean they aren't there.

WinespringBrother 01-29-2010 01:20 PM

There were also unseen eyes/watchers in Fal Dara. There was a gray man there, but I thought it was Lanfear spying on Rand.

As for the hidden eyes in TAR, they could be heroes or forsaken, since we have seen both spying. I wonder if Moggy can see the hidden watchers, since she found Nynaeve and Birgitte easily enough.

Baravius Hallendren 01-29-2010 01:47 PM

Moggy found them the same way the wise ones and Egwene find people that they want to see. I honestly don't think we've seen the real unseen watchers on screen yet. It just doesn't feel like RJ to have them explained away so easily as heroes or forsaken.

Maybe they are the lurkers from Theoryland...

Terez 01-29-2010 01:56 PM

Welcome to Theoryland, Bavarius. :) One time, Nynaeve was thinking about the unseen eyes when she was talking to Birgitte. Before then, I'd thought that the eyes were Birgitte also, because RJ leads us to believe that. Nynaeve feels them, and then she hollers for Birgitte, and Birgitte steps out. But Nynaeve still feels them. So, it could be other Heroes, but not likely anyone else, or Birgitte would know there was someone there watching.

Another possibility is Slayer, who might possibly have a trick up his sleeve that Birgitte doesn't know about.

Baravius Hallendren 01-29-2010 02:02 PM

Thanks Terez!

If it is other heroes, wouldn't Birgitte see them or at least know they are there. I guess this raises the whole "how do invisible heroes communicate in TAR?" question.

Terez 01-29-2010 02:04 PM

She would know they were there, but she would not be worried about them, so there is no reason to mention them (and reason not to mention them: the prescripts). I'd imagine they can see each other, but they control who sees them.


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